Jimmy Iovine and Allen Hughes

After nearly five decades of success and history making moments in the music business, it is safe to say that Jimmy Iovine is a veritable institution. The relatively reserved music executive---who most notably co-founded Interscope Records and later co-founded BEATS By Dre---chronicled his rise in ranks in the GRAMMY® winning 2017 documentary The Defiant Ones. In this installment, Scott Goldman chats with Iovine and doc’s director Allen Hughes.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, Executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Every week, we talked to artists, songwriters,
and producers at every level, from emerging to legendary, across
every genre, in front of a live audience in the
Clive Davis Theater at the Grammy Museum. The discussions are intimate, personal,

(00:20):
and completely unscripted. These conversations never failed to surprise me,
and I think you'll feel the same way. At the
Grammy Museum, we run a series called Real to Real.
We screened documentaries on music related topics, and following the screenings,
we speak with the principles involved about the film and
their role in bringing it to life. Recently, we screened

(00:41):
an episode of the Grammy nominated documentary The Defiant Ones.
Today I'm Required Listening. You'll hear my post screening discussion
with the director, Alan Hughes and one of the film's subjects,
Jimmy Ivy. Ivan is arguably one of the most successful
figures in music. He began his career as a young
studio engineer, working with John Lennon, Bruce Springsteen, and Patti Smith.

(01:02):
He went on to produce many great artists, including Tom
Petty's breakout albums in the late seventies and early eighties.
He went on to found Interscope Records, signing new artists
and becoming deeply involved in the burgeoning alternative rock scene.
Alan Hughes made his directorial debut along with his brother
Albert at age one, with the gangster epic Menace to Society.

(01:24):
The brothers went on to direct Dead President's American Timp
from Hell and The Book of Eli. Jimmy Allen and
I had an inspiring and often hilarious conversation. If you've
seen The Defiant Ones, this will give you an insider's
view of what goes into making a Grammy nominated documentary.
If you haven't, this is a terrific introduction. So let's

(01:46):
go to the Clive Davis Theater and listen to my
conversation with Alan Hughes and Jimmy Ivy. Please welcome the
director of The Defiant Ones, Alan Hughes, and a man
who's decades long career has always been about risk taking,
innovation and pushing music forward. Please welcome. Jimmy Ivy got

(02:16):
some ringers in the audience. Jimmy, I said, you've got
some ringers in the audience. What comes after my name
is not Dre, not not true at all. Thank you
both very much for taking the time. Tell me, first
of all, how did you guys meet? How did you meet?

(02:38):
I think I'm he doesn't remember. I met him when
me and my brother were doing some Tupac videos when
we were nineteen UM and Interscope. Interscope was just getting
hot at the time, So I briefly met Jim because
we weren't hot enough to sit in his office. Ship
just kind of walk and just walk by and I waved.
And then a few years later, after Menace and after

(02:58):
Dead Presidents, UM had a record label with Jimmy about
four years. Yeah, and he financed American Pimp as well.
Yeah you um, you had a long relationship with Dre,
long relationship and this actually began as a documentary about him. Yeah.

(03:18):
So so tell me about how this transitioned to the
Defiant Ones. Well, I worked with Dre in a video
with Eminem called I Need a Doctor. We did somewhat
of a career retrospective and an idea to kind of
like remind people, you know, where he came from and
how long he's been in a game, and then afterwards
he asked me, he goes, do you think my life
would make an interesting story? And I'm like, you've lived

(03:40):
the life of ten men. You know. I'll call HBO,
called HBO to President, HBO pitched him. He green lid
it over the phone, and then he said, we have
one problem. I said, wish that. He said, we just
greenlit an Interscope documentary Jimmy Ivy, so I'll call you
right back. The light bulb went off, you know, because
knowing Jimmy so well and knowing Dre so and at

(04:01):
that time Beats was like two thousand thirteen, Beasts was
just the most prominent brand on the planet. So it
was obvious. So when he called you, what did you say? Well,
I had canceled the Interscope documentary like two or three
times already, because you know, I kept asking my friends,
I said you should I do this thing? And it

(04:21):
kept saying why would you do this? You know, because
it went by, it happened, and it went well, and
nothing crashed. He said, you go back and dig it up.
You don't know what's going to happen in there. Because
in the Scope in the nineties was a really rough place,
you know. So I canceled it like two or three times,
and then Alan came along and I said yes to that,

(04:43):
and then we canceled that. We had a green light,
and then he canceled it for a year. He wouldn't
do it, Yeah, because I just I just didn't want
to go back there, because there was a lot of
stuff that went on that just was you know, it
was just a paint paint, as he well, well, not
not not only that, but I mean you've talked, you've talked,
and you've been very open about the conflict around your

(05:08):
role and the feuds in Wrap in the nineties. The
whole thing with Time Wanner, the whole thing was just
just was a nightmare. So I said, why am I
doing this? You know? Why? Why? My main question every
day for myself is why, And if I get a
good answer for myself, I do it. If I don't,
I don't. Right, That's how I lived my life every day.

(05:31):
Why are you doing this? You know? And um, so
I couldn't come up with a good reason. But then
I did come up with a good reason because my
my dear, great partner and friend was willing to speak.
And this is a man who doesn't speak much. So
I said, I'm not going to be the guy to
stop Dr Dre from speaking. So and that's kind of
why I did it, to be honest with you, And

(05:54):
and then it was left to you to get them
talking and to to put this together. When you started
to conceptualize that, what was the through line? What what
for you? What was what was the story? I want
to know all these answers as well. Yeah, well, well
I knew. You know. It's it's interesting when you're making
a documentary or even a film and someone's not been

(06:15):
on film before, like Jimmy, you're taking a leap of
faith that they're going to translate because if someone is
a rock star in the room, which Jimmy was in
the room. But I also knew I can and I'm
pretty good at winding Jimmy up and getting him going.
And Jimmy's focused. Once he gets focused on something, he's
on it. So that was the X factor that I
was excited about, was bringing Jimmy up. Jimmy has always

(06:38):
existed behind that curtain. Um, so everyone thinks they know
Dre and they really don't either, you know, So what
were we doing the editing room was we would do
little things like, Okay, Jimmy's the Godfather, Andrey's Michael Corleone,
Jimmy's the cat and Ray's the dog. You know. A
little good about that is that I get killed not

(07:02):
to do the second one, and uh and we did that.
And in reference to Michael obviously was in the military
and wasn't going to go into family business. Drey is
an artist and was not going to become a businessman,
And through his relationship with Jimmy, he learned to become
a businessman. That was kind of the things we're trying
to find the through lines, you know, And it was
one of the many things well, and one of the
things that interests me because you've said some great things

(07:25):
about documentaries and about how people, you know, look at
documentaries like they need to eat their vegetables or you
know whatever, not the most exciting thing in the world,
And how do you how do you change that perception?
But before I get there, you know, one of the
one of the things that you've always been very successful
at is identifying people with whom you can collaborate successfully.

(07:47):
You know, there there for whatever reason, even one word
out great people great, fair enough because I can't do it.
I need great people to do anything. So so the
question is what did you see in him? You know,
I just Alan. I loved Alan from when he was
a kid, right. I mean, like I said, I financed,
I'm American pimp. You know why, I have no idea? Um,

(08:12):
But then I I gave him a record label. Right,
there is a guy that I've stuck with. So so
we came to me and he said, I've got I said,
Alan d Dre. I said, everything else is boring, right,
he said, no, this the story is your relationship with
Dr Dre's a white and a black. This is what

(08:33):
he said to me. So white and a black guy
that come from racially challenged neighborhoods, Dada forced to face
their fears from those neighborhoods in each other and have
to get over it. And I said, oh, that's an idea,
you know. And I'm always attracted to ideas. I you know,
I like specific, very good ideas, and uh, a person

(08:59):
could be an idea. Yeah, you know, America was an idea.
Things that are ideas, you know, and he had he
had an idea, which is more than most people have
that come in my office, so and that you give
record deals to um. John land Out said, you have
to learn, you know, as a manager, that it's not

(09:19):
about you and and that seems to be something that
you you developed an understanding about that very early on.
And that's the key to if I have any kind
of outside of luck, if I have anything, it's that
I just uh, and no one learns that, you know,
you have a hit record, and they breathe their own

(09:41):
exhaust and they get all pumped up. And when I
have a hit record or something that's successful, whether he
beats my thing is abject terror. And why that is
because I'm like, if the thing isn't a hit, I
feel horrible. And the thing is a hit, feel horrible
because I feel like the next thing is not going

(10:02):
to be a hit. So you know, UM, and I
feel that it's not about me, it's about the project,
it's about the everybody involved in it. So I never
felt I've never taking a victory lap of my life.
I've never had a gold record, don't you know, you know,
I don't you know, somebody melts them, but I never

(10:22):
did anything like that. And I still I just I
don't have a review mirror where this kind of stuff
is concerned. I just don't. And I learned it from
landau Land because I wasn't believe me. I thought it
was about me because in my house when I was
growing up, I grew up in an Italian house or
with my mother, my sister, my aunt, and two cousins.
They were old women, and they just treating me like

(10:45):
a prince. Right. So we didn't have a lot, but
we had great services. I would come home to I
would come to You can say that anymore, but that's
I guess said that about my my my sister. I
said about my sister, my oh, and my grandmother. I
would come home and there would be spaghetti at three
o'clock in the morning, or because I was the baby

(11:07):
of the family and they just took great camp. So anyway,
so I thought it was all about me, right, great
lust for this way, get service, great love. Okay, So
I what happened was, I think it's a very it's
a very good lesson for anybody who wants to do something.
Is I was trying to get Spreaksney's drum sound with
you guys just watched and I was stuck and it

(11:28):
was going on for three six weeks whatever, and little
Stephen there was a guy that's not in the movie,
but there was a guy from New Jersey who like,
when you're growing up and you're like twenty one years old,
you have other people at a competition from different studios
and all that kind of nonsense. Oh, he's the guy
from New Jersey. And I was working on the record
fight there was a guy at Media sound and all

(11:51):
guys that are coming up that you think you're a
competition with. So Stephen said, let's bring this guy in
from New Jersey, get us the drum sound. And that's
where I went to land and I said, Land though
I quit. Fuck this fuck that, you know, uh why
you know? And he looked at me and he said,
hey man, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not about you.

(12:12):
And I said, is that possible? You know? And uh,
it's stuck and and and why that's the little story
is important is because it taught me to have information
and when I trusted someone or I thought they were smart,

(12:34):
to take their input, no matter how high I was,
you know what I mean, no matter how in my
own head or whatever I was, I will stopped. I'll
do it today. Like if Geffen calls me or somebody
like that, I says, whoa waiting? Whoa? I just go okay,
let me let me see all right? You know, I
take advice. And since that day, like when I and

(12:56):
my family they would you know, I only grew up
in my family and my friends, my neighborhood, you know,
and my cousins. They we're all just a big family.
And I never had these kind of experiences before somebody
would actually say, this is not about you, like what
are you talking about? But anyway, it was a big
thing and I deal with this every day. I've been

(13:16):
doing this now forty forty four years, which is a
long time. And I can tell you that I've given
this speech to at least, I'm gonna be conservative, five
hundred people at least that worked for me over the years.
Two or three got it? Okay. It is not something

(13:41):
that's easy to learn. Do you think you got it
and then you don't have it? Because every day that
goes by, when you get a little more success, so
you do something, you start getting puffed up, and um,
you gotta be willing to stop and start again and say, okay,
I'm a beginner again, I'm gonna learn from scratch right now.

(14:03):
And that's a hard thing to do. And I'm blessed
because I'm lucky. I got it and there was no
greatness in me. I just got that. So what is it?
What is it about Dre? When you met Dre? What
is it about him that made you want to collaborate?
What did you see? It was? All the guys around
him were fantastic guys. I could I could it possibly

(14:30):
walk away from that? Uh? Well, what what got me
about Dre was I didn't know anything about hip hop,
you know, I didn't understand it. I Uh, I come
out of rock twenty years of producing rock and roll music,
you know, And so he and Sugar, who was very talented,
actually walked in the room and played me the chronic

(14:53):
with Jarn McClean, and I didn't have an understanding of
hip hop. It all sounded really I was coming from
an engineering background, so it all sounded really muddy, with
the eight o eight's and samples and everything, and nobody
really knew how to control the bottom. So I just
kept ignoring it because of that, you know, I like
Public Enemy a little bit, but the rest I didn't

(15:15):
really understand. And he came in and I had these
speakers from nine seventies six that I bought in England
called ten Ois, and I still have them and they're
in my office. They were in my office then and
they put on the chronic and I said, that sounds
as good as Pink Floyd sounds on these speakers. I

(15:36):
said that this is not like everything else. So I said,
who engineered it? And he said I did. I said
who produced it? He said I did. I said, holy shit,
and I say it in the movie and I actually
said it that day. I said, this guy will define
interscope in thirty seconds. Now. I didn't understand anything else
about hip hop. I just knew whoever did that, I

(15:59):
want to play with. And that's how it happened. It
really was that clean, and you know, I mean, there
really was a bond with you guys in terms of
that passion for for producing, that passion for sound. I mean,
all the other business stuff sort of came. But what
happened was I got very lucky again. I was a
record company executive that came from a recording studio, the

(16:22):
recording studio of anybody here to work in recording studio.
It's a place of service, and what you're there is
to make the client happy. You're there to make sure
that lunch is on time. They're comfortable that this t
is right, the studios right, the microphone's right, the headphones
sound right, the drums sound right. So you're continually of service. Right.

(16:45):
So I worked at a record company, and most people
are the other record companies. They weren't of service, Okay,
they thought, you know, most regord companies think it's them.
I knew it wasn't me, right because I worked in
a recording studio. So if you're sitting there to Bruce
Springsteen and he's singing going to run, you know you
can't do that right. Whereas if you come up as

(17:07):
an executive promotion but you have no idea about the
magic of it, you think you know, but you don't
know in your soul. So that's kind of where I
was coming out of it with Interscope. And so when
I met Dre, I was like, this guy just needs
to be nurtured and you know, and and it'll go
allen you. You came up and and had an interesting experience.

(17:30):
You spent some time with easy when you were young,
and I want to talk a little bit about I
think there was a summer or two spent kind of
hanging hanging around the but you learned a lot during
that time, talk a little bit about it was like
that movie My Week with Maryland, But it was my
summer with Easy. You picked me up every day and

(17:51):
me and my brother were nobody's My brother lasted about
a week and then it was just me an Easy.
He taught me a lot about like concept and theme
and identifying by the way, not literally telling me, just
watching him operate, identifying what's different about you, what's unique
about you, and leveraging that and like, uh, separating yourself
from the pack. So when you look at those n

(18:12):
w A records, obviously Dre was a sonic genius. I
mean that's just clear from day one, you know. But
Easy was the thematic concept guy, and he was really
great at like a mythology as well. He would put
little demonic whispers on those records and talk about devil worship,
which is a big taboo in the black community. I
don't know about the white community, but he would have

(18:35):
a skateboard and act like he was a skateboarder. He
did skateboard back then. Black kids didn't skateboard, and so
he knew he understood these little things and I just
picked him up. And the way he dealt with his
fans in the street, everything about him. He was easy.
He was very laid back. He was comical, but he
was a Jimmy reminds me. They remind me of each
other a little bit because their their marketing geniuses. Though,

(18:59):
you know, like, did you really get what you know?
I think I think Jimmy's a more refined version in that,
in that aspect, you know, um, he got He got
Dre in the same way Easy got Dre, but Easy's
ego got in a way. That's what wasn't. I didn't
know exactly. Somebody told me I had lunch of them,

(19:21):
but I remember, and uh, but yeah, I really don't,
I really don't. And um, but he was an artist
to artists too. Artists are going to go at it
with each other, you know, there's no no artist wants
to another artist to do better than them. But he
also was keep in mind he wasn't an artist to

(19:44):
begin with. He was a street cat. And dra created
this artist from scratch, so that it was a it
was a head fuck. You know, there's a quote of
yours that I read that that I want to get
your or comment on. You said, the thing about hip
hop is the line between just being completely corny and

(20:06):
being completely cool is thin, very thin. Explain that a
little bit. How do you walk that line? I don't
know how to explain that. You know, It's like, uh,
in the black culture, there's a there's a hip nois
and people look to it for that, but there's all
you know, there's that. There's that thing in music too,

(20:27):
because hip hop is so colorful and so dynamic and
hip hop you can do country hip hop, you can
do conscious hip hop, so you can do real corny
ship real quick as well. You know, I mean this,
you can go into any lane unlike rock. You know,
I don't know how to explain what that, what what
I meant by that, But I know every year there's
some really corny records to come out. But you know

(20:49):
when you hear it, yeah, you know what it is
is that because unlike rock or jazz or whatever, a
lot of these people are not all hip hop artis,
but they're talking a lot of ship, so that can
get real corny. There was a lot of that in
rock music. Example, the eighties, you know, uh, as a

(21:10):
lot of as a decade I was with. I was,
I'm gonna bring up someone who's past recently, who was
someone I love dearly, who was an incredibly funny guy.
And uh, but it was in two he came over
my breakfast, over my house for breakfast. Who we have
to be at some lawyer or something like that. It
was Tom Petty and he was he was rolling a

(21:30):
joint and I had a little TV in my kitchen
and MTV was on. It was eight two eighty three, right,
and he said, um, so, I mean, do you watch
this m t V? I said, it's on. I mean,
you know, I guess, yeah. You know, we work a lot.
I don't get to see it. He goes, now you
see the guys here and there was one of those
hair bands, right, and he said, this stuff is like wrestling.

(21:55):
I said, why is it like wrestling? He goes, kids
know it's fake, but they watch it anyway. So a
typical the hat to Tom Petty, but the fainting doesn't
need the greatest Oh my god, I felt, so I
feel horrible about this. But anyway, um, great thing about
easy and Dre is easy. It was a star, and

(22:17):
Dre spotted a star from a guy who was a
drug dealer, didn't even wrap and Easy distinctfully knew what
Drake could do, had no experience in music, and that
that's a miracle right there. You know that's a miracle.
But the greatest, the greatest hustlers and drug dealers are
great marketing man. It was no mistake. He was a
great marketing man. You know, you managed, you managed to

(22:38):
get these guys talking and and really about some things
that frankly, I don't think you've spent a lot of
time talking in public about, and I don't think Dre
has spent a lot of time talking in public about.
And I'm wondering, how did you How did you make
that happen? How did you get these guys? It's like
it's like any other performer or actor, writer or anything.

(23:01):
They had to be ready. I couldn't make them before.
We gave Alan too much. Dre, Dre and I weren't
gonna do this if it was going to be about
misfit tape, no hagiography it we just weren't gonna do it.
Here's what we did here, and here's what we did there.
And I was like, you know, I said, Dre said

(23:22):
to me, And I said to him and said, who
the funk wants to see that? You know? And um,
so Alan was the right guy because he knew literally
maybe where the bodies were buried, and so so he
would go in and and Dre lead. So I followed Dre.
I'm said, I'm not gonna let him go out there

(23:43):
on his own. And we just didn't want to. I
say it bout misfittape. We all know what that is.
We all like kids going through by misfits or their
friends by miss was. I'm Catholic, but I I know
what about misfizz and I know what the tape. I
always knows my kids where Catholic, always wanted by misfit
tape at thirteen years old, and that we don't have
by Mitch for tape. But there's been some documentaries on

(24:05):
the last few years that mis for tapes, okay, and um,
we didn't want that, you know, And because you know why,
we wouldn't watch it. Yea, we wouldn't watch it if
they if there wasn't the why, you know, I wonder
people if we were gonna do anything like this. I
have no idea what was going to be as successful
as it was, and we're very lucky that it was.

(24:25):
But I want the people to understand what the why
that we did all those that the why those things happened,
and I think that's important rather than the watch. There's
also there's also though, like me having known them both
for that long, there's just dynamics between that relationship that
I understood, you understood, understood, you know, And I don't

(24:46):
know if an average director would have known those things.
And I've heard stories from Jimmy over the years and
years and years and years, so there was I knew
the stories. You know. There was a lot easier saying
those stories in your office than it is on a camera.
Yeah it is. But Jimmy. I discovered something about Jimmy.
I know how to wind him up. If you if

(25:07):
you can wind Jimmy's a very like in the moment guy.
He can't fake it. He can't tell a story almost
say tell that story. If he doesn't feel it, he
can't tell you, you know, and I can identify. Did
you know he was winding you up? Um? No, because
once you put the quarter and you get the whole ride,
there's no getting off in the middle. You know, you

(25:30):
also said you wanted you wanted people to know how
it felt, to know what going through your life here
and that it wasn't always pretty well because I I
don't know, maybe I did somewhere enjoy one day of it,
you know, over the forty years, but it was always painful,

(25:53):
you know, it just was. And I had a lot
of fun, like you know, you're working Bruce Frankstein. He's
a funny guy that we got a great time, but
it was very painful. So you know, in the evening,
maybe you know, you go to uh Brandtall's clamhouse a
little Stephen, you know, you do something fun, but there's
this overhanging thing of trying to do something great. And

(26:16):
if what the doctor for what a documentary is is
I did this that was great, and I did that
that was great, that I did this that was great.
I mean it's kind of like row row road your boat.
You know. Um, you know what strikes me, And this
may be true of lots of people who are innovative
in what they do. There may be a fear of failure,
but there's more it's more about the fear of failing

(26:39):
to try and that seems to be where you let
me that did you confuse me a fear of failure
versus that fear of you know, never having actually tried.
And well, that's that thing you're talking about, is the
fear of failure. Right. The thing is what the fear

(26:59):
of fail it does? It stops you from trying. So
the thing about the documentary, which is what I learned,
I remember when I learned that. I was twenty years
old and I was the guy in little league who
would sit out in right field. I was the right
field of course, right, you didn't even you didn't even
need a glove in right field. Um, I'm sitting out

(27:24):
there and I'm saying, oh my god, this guy is
a left hand. I hope he doesn't hit the fucking ball.
To me, that that's who I was growing up until
I got to the record plant, and then all of
a sudden, I can't explain it. It's like magical. This
feeling of fear empowered me. The more frightened I'd get,

(27:46):
the more I'd move forward in the recording studio. Now,
in little league, I pitched one year. I started crying
as I was pitching, you know, and my father was
a longshoreman and I started walking off the mountain. He
wasn't like this, But you know, my whole life was
not based on that lack of fear. But as soon
as I got into the recording studio, for some reason,

(28:08):
that fear turned into a tailwind and it pushed me forward.
And it still does today. And the more frightened I get,
the more excited I get. Yeah, Yeah, tell me a
little bit about um Uh. There's gotta be things that
ended up not making the film, and and I'm wondering
if there were a scene or two or three that

(28:31):
were really hard to let go of, but for whatever reason,
you had to. This is the first time in my
career were not I don't regret one. There's one that
um was released recently where Jimmy goes to the whole
struggle on Born to Run and has to master that
what does it? Put it on wax and take it

(28:52):
to Bruce in some far flung area and Bruce is
a motel and they listened to it as a stereo store.
Come back and Bruce throws the record in the pool
and wants to start from scratch. Born to Run. That
was a devastating, It was a great story. First time
I took value, I had a guy. Uh well, it

(29:13):
was because there was a guy named Jerry the Cat
that I grew up with. Because you know, I never
want to go anywhere on my own. So I told
this guy we were going to Washington, was going to
see him in Baltimore, so to take the train with me.
I've got to go see Spriing Sting and playing this record.
So he came to me and he was the guy
that did you always have a best friend that takes
a lot of drugs, right, I mean we all do, right.
His name was Jerry the Cat and he used to

(29:34):
have either Jerry the Cat right, and and he had
a bottle of Value with me. So I went back
on the train and I said, I am dead. This
is I don't know what to do. I'm I'm gonna
get thrown out of the record business. I can't imagine
what's gonna happen to take this. You know, I almost
woke up in Pennsylvania, but but I did. That's the

(29:58):
first time I ever took value. Now that wasn't a movie,
and it was great. Yeah, because the Bruce Springsteen stuff
was so tough. It was like one more it was
a bridge too far. Yeah, yeah, got it, got it.
You know, it seems like everyone that you could possibly
have wanted to interview you got in this movie. I mean,

(30:18):
you know, Bono, Lady Gaga, Patti Smith, Springsteen, Trent Rezner, Puff, Daddy,
Gwen Stefani, Snooped, Tom Petty, Kendrick, Stevie Nicks, Michael good Times. Yeah,
I mean it's was there anyone you couldn't get? Yeah,
there was one Lenin John Lenny Well that was it. No,
it was really I gotta say, between Jimmy and Dre

(30:41):
and what people, I guess knew what it was. Patti
Smith was was tough because she doesn't she doesn't do this,
but eventually she did it, not because we asked, but
because she wanted to do it for Jimmy, you know.
And that was what was remarkable, how much loved all
these people who are either currently working with them or
hadn't human years still had Dre and I just sit

(31:03):
down and go get anybody you want. If they like us,
they don't like us, they you know, whatever, whatever their
feelings are, it's not our business. Go out and get
whoever you want to get. And um, that's what he did.
Were you kind of looking at this as he was
making it? Were you reviewing things to check? Because, like
I said, I was really paranoid. Paranoid is unfair, man,

(31:26):
somewhere between scared and paranoid, because you know, there were
certain things that went on that you know, it was dangerous,
you know, and dangerous to other people, was besides myself.
And I didn't mind about myself, but I didn't mind
about the other people. Someone to make sure that things
were not in there. That was someone else's agenda. That
I was pushing a button that nobody even knew there

(31:48):
was a button there. So I wanted to see some
of it because of that. I mean, you know, I
wouldn't let me tell you something, man, if you're concerned
about what people are gonna say. And I this is
a very nice lady, and she's the mother of my children.
You don't send the guy to interview your ex wife
if you give a shit about what people are gonna
say about you. Okay, So, and she was very nice,

(32:10):
although something said a few things that I didn't agree with.
But well, what happened was I said, I said that
the director please don't write this, and I gotta deal
with that. Sure, you know, um I said that to
Doug Pray. He was a very credible guy. I said, look, man,
that that's not what happened. He said, well, then you're

(32:32):
gonna have to go on the camera right there and
you're gonna have to counter it. I said, man, I'm
not going to do that because we'll then stand so
that they were like twenty things like that. You know,
did you did you guys have disagreements about Are you kidding?
I'm still recovering from Jimmy right now. No. I think
what was what was interesting about the dynamics, particularly with

(32:54):
me and Jimmy and Drey was a little different. You know,
they're they're obviously different men, is that there was a
technique that you can feel in the film where people
are listening to the other interview. Well, because I did
want to take and show Jimmy things because the opening
of the film with that cript walking whatever I had
that Jimmy hadn't seen it. It was the first thing
we cut. I better take us to see you, you know,
because I don't know, like this is pretty radical. But

(33:18):
what we developed was he would tell a story and
then I would go interview Stevie Nicks, and she would
round out another part of the story that he wasn't telling,
and then we would go back and get him to see.
The thing is that that was a technique. You know.
One of the things that Dre and I really have
in comment is we have a very very low tolerance

(33:39):
to boring. Mh. Right. So if anything is one second
longer than it needs to be or just goes into bullshit,
I don't know who hates it more, me or him,
you know. And so anytime you know, you see something go,
oh man, this is fucking I don't need to blow
job right now, Alan, you know, I don't fucking need it.

(34:02):
You know what I'm saying that they get the funk
out of it. Get that out of there. No one's
gonna No one gives a ship about my aunt, you
know what I mean. No one gives a flying fuck,
okay about what happened to me in seventeen years old.
What I was dealing with that, you know, I just
kept thinking, like, who the fund's gonna Then then he

(34:22):
started with Dre and I insisted, And this is the
only time I've ever seen me and Dre really lose
a fight. He said, let me tell Dre and say,
let me tell you something, motherfucker, this thing ain't gonna
be more than one episode. No fucking way, no fucking way.
You tell him, I said, you tell him. I told him.
I said, okay, now, Alan, it's gotta be two episodes.

(34:45):
I said, it's gotta be. No. I'm no fucking way, man,
I'm out. I'm out for Allen. I'm out. This. This
is the this is the right. So then he goes
to three. I said, let me tell you something, Alan,
my mother was a great woman. Nobody loved me more
than my mother. If she came back from the dead.

(35:07):
You'd only watched two. And that's how I really felt,
you know, And I would I would argue with him, like,
you can't be objective about your own life story. That
was the fight, Jimmy. You Andre, you're getting bored about this.
You're getting bored, but you don't want because you know

(35:28):
the story. You noticed, and it's you you're talking. And
the family. To his credit, his family and Liberty, they
were really really championing the things they were seeing. He
was as well, but they had to convince him his
family as well as It's only because I was so
paranoid about the stuff I told you about. But I
was not paranoid about that. But I was so paranoid

(35:50):
about this being about misfitape. I can't tell you. It's
just I just I so much rather than not do it.
Who that wants to be on HBO in a parade
for yourself? Everyone? You know? Everyone? I can't can we?
You know, we once you know the fish rots from
them whatever, you know. But once I've discovered that about Jimmy,

(36:12):
I was like wow, and I and I kept pushing
with the other subjects, you know, the adversaries, the x
is or whatever, you know, pushing that radical nature because
I knew he was game well. And so I mean
you took on some stuff that the d Barnes, you know, issue,
which was very risky. I mean I I to me,

(36:35):
that seems like in that particular instance, as a filmmaker,
you are really walking out there without a net. I mean,
did you have a sense of where that was going,
you know at the time. To while while while I'm
making this thing, I'm always studying pop culture, and I'm
always studying the films that are coming out and being
successful at the time in the same medium, whether it

(36:55):
was the Jinks or making them a murderer and ultimately,
O J I'm making this film and those things are
coming out in success. I'll tell you, man, I'll tell
you something. I'll give you a little insight to my
if you if you can to my thinking when that
was going down, I was going, fucking great, this movie
is over. This ain't happened, and so it's gonna end
this whole fucking project. What was going on, I was

(37:18):
just kill the launge thing. I figured that, no way
does this happened, is gonna kill the whole fucking project
and I don't have to do this anymore and it's
over and it will So I went out, this decision
is gonna be made for me. Thank god, it's over.
What I figured out though, and Jimmy was and as
well as Grey, we were hyper sensitive to that issue
going in. We agreed to we're gonna deal with this issue.

(37:40):
Is I felt at a certain point, I go, you know,
an apologies not enough. I didn't know d we have
to involve her not only in the incident, but before
the incident happened. She was a part of that culture.
She was a vibrant voice in that culture. She's an
artist in that culture, so why not let her celebrate
the glory of mind blowing in this film. She's mind blowing,

(38:02):
I mean she really. I think that's my favorite interview.
It's just fantastic interview. I mean, it was just so
there was few that I really like, but I really
loved hers, and I like the way Dre handled it,
and Alan, I had nothing to do with it. I
just just figured I was kidding about what I said
about the movies over But you know it, I knew
that was gonna be a tough one, you know, but

(38:23):
there were a lot of tough ones in there. You know,
some of them are obvious and some of them are
not so obvious. But there was a lot of tough,
tough things in there that you know, that walk the
line that could trigger literally anything. So fair warning, gonna
ask for a couple of questions from from the house
here and can't see anybody. Just in a minute. We'll
get there in a minute. But you know that, Alan,

(38:44):
you know one of the things you need to do
when and I think you've talked about this, here's the grandmass.
Music is not theaters is lighting, is not what we're
expected to to do here, right, we'll we'll we'll turn
the house lights up in a minute. But you have
to balance kind of the you know, the information with
you know, as we've been talking about with the d
Barnes piece, with kind of the revelation telling people things

(39:05):
that they don't know. Um, how present was that in
your mind? Is your is your stories behind the stories?
You know? That was hyper president in my mind. But
what I was doing during the making of this also
as I was showing room, I would take the twenty
minutes thirty minutes to a room full of teenagers to
a room full of women, hip hop crowd, rock crowd

(39:27):
like I was showing because I don't know me. At
one point, we're going from like Easy's Jerry curl and
studio to Stevie Nicks, like literally cutting. So you can't
take for granted that the hip hop crowd is gonna
hang around for the Tom Petty stuff, the Stevie Nicks stuff,
or that the Stephen Knicks people are going to hang
around for the n w A stuff. So I had
to figure out this alchemy and that was literally this

(39:51):
the greatest stories win. And if Grandma don't understand, it's
got to go out of the film. So you know,
a lot of what Dre and I Dred and I
found Davin common is what I wanted to make sure
that came across was we both see and work what's
wrong with the thing or what's wrong with it? And
I wanted that feeling to come across because you know, yeah,

(40:14):
you have a success, but to have something succeed is
the baseline. Anything less than that you want to kill yourself, right,
So that had to come across because that's really what
it feels like, you know what I mean, It just
really felt that way. So we got we got time

(40:37):
for for one or two questions from the house. Yes, sir,
right there. I wanted to know, as you did this
research for this film and we're doing any interviews, was
there anything that shocked you, was surprising, anything you didn't know,
personal revelation, nothing that sticks out like just easy to me,

(41:00):
you know. I mean, listen, when you go into the
death Row era, you're gonna hear a bunch of crazy ship.
So when I say a bunch, just like a mountain
of ship. But I think I think and Fat the
question he's asking completely flew over your head. I think
I think the question he was asking was more about you.

(41:22):
See what I was dealing with and you and you
are a different person after this movie. I think a
lot of things about yourself you found out in this movie.
Well you asked me about the subjects or me. Okay,

(41:44):
it wasn't a singular thing. I think it was accumulation
of things that I was a picture taking of me.
When I started this thing, I was somewhere with Dre
and I had these little doe eyes, you know, and
you look at me now. I don't have those dough
eyes anymore. And I don't know what to I can't
put my finger on it. But it was a lot
of a lot of life lessons. I was learning a
lot of particularly with him and with Dre. Like just

(42:06):
I didn't realize how much bullshit I was taking on
in my life. Noise I was listening to while I
was creating things. I would deal with every everyone's problems.
And these guys really taught me to their actions. Jimmy
wouldn't sit me down. I just watched them. That was
a profound change in my behavior. Just focus. That changed
my life. That's great, yes, right here, definitely a match class.

(42:32):
I learned so much I wanted to ask Jim, what
what about stop Dragging My Heart that you took from Tom?
And he felt it would be well again. When Tom
sang it, um, it sounded like a blues record to me,
you know, and I needed that's a tour, that's a

(42:53):
double edged sword, that that song. It's always been a
but when he says, make a meal some around, some
bright eyed kid, you need someone to look after you,
I felt if a woman said that to me, it
would blow my mind. So I felt if Stevie Nicks
sang that to anyone in the world that it would

(43:14):
just slay them, you know. And uh, the rest of
the lyrics a very male sort of perspective on it.
And I was always about empowering the women I worked with.
I wanted. I worked at so many women, you know, Alison,
Chrissy hind Any Letics like what you know, Stevie Nicks,
a lot of great, great, great women's strong woman, you know,

(43:36):
really powerful woman. So when I heard that lyric, I said, wow,
if she sings that lyric, that could be a hit record.
Now at that moment, when I heard her sing it,
I got really excited. So I didn't think, let's put
it on both albums because I was a kid. I
should have That's what I should have done. But I

(43:57):
don't know if I could have convinced Tom to put
it on his album, but it didn't. It ended up
on her album and it was a gigantic, gigantic hit record.
And uh, but I always went for women to sound
really powerful and strong, like because the night, you know,
when a woman sings, because the night belongs to lovers.
That's like, that's taken the dominant. That's that's you know,

(44:21):
take me now, baby here as I am, hold me close,
trying to desire as hunger as the fire I breathe.
Love is a banquet on which we feed, right, That's like, oh, ship,
I wish some girl mend your girl calling you up
and just say yo, okay. I'm like, okay, you know

(44:42):
that's that's better than match dot com. So anyway, Um,
but that's why, man, because I heard that lyric and
I just said, Wow, she's gonna kill with that, yes
right there. So you do you talk about coming into
the studio, you have the spear of me. It's not
gonna work out. The next one is not going to
be as good as the last. How are you able

(45:03):
to take that that you're just turn it around to
create this environment that allows you to have such comfortable
relationships with such incredible artists that that's really you know,
it's it's it's first of all, you've got to know
it's not you. So now when I'm in there, I

(45:24):
know that without the other, the person on the other
side of the glass, I'm living in red Hood, Brooklyn,
no ship. I do not for one second I think
that I could write down the road. I can't even
read it. Okay. So the fear is getting you up
to just the level of where you feel you're you're

(45:47):
doing minimum job that you can do to that of
what they deserve. Right. So I was always of service.
I'm still of service. I work at Apple and people
come in that I'm working with, I'm there to help them,
you know, beats, every designer on beats, I'm there to
like make him comfortable, you know. So I'm an enabler

(46:10):
and I I've always looked at my life like that.
So the fear is the fears on everything. The fears
on the high hat sound like, oh my god, I
can't the funking e hat doesn't sound right, doesn't sound
as good as it did on the last time. I said,
oh funk, what am I gonna You know, it's every
fucking inch of it. It's got you bananas, and and

(46:31):
if you approach it from being of service, it's got
a better You've got a better shot. And I that's
why the relationships are still there, because I believed I
was able to convince them because I think it was
true that I cared much as much about their music
as they did. And that was my trick because they

(46:55):
believed it, and I guess I believed it because a
lot of times you go into the studio work at
a record company, and you know, like they just send
these A and our guys down to my study. Then
eventually I became the head of a record company. But
I would never let an A and R guide down
to my sessions. Never. Never. Tom Wally, when I met
it eventually, because he came to interscope with us, he said, man,

(47:17):
you didn't let me down to the session. I said,
I would never let anybody down to the session. He says,
why not. I said, because you can't have the right answer,
Because if you're sitting in there and I play you
a record and you say nothing. I'm fucked. If you
say you like it, I'm fucked. If you say you
don't like it, I'm fucked. There's nothing that can come

(47:39):
good of this because you're hearing it through them, and
you said, wow, that's the greatest thing in the world,
which the most record company people say, you know, I
got the fullest ship. So now you're like, you're all confused,
right and you know and um, and then they always say, wow,
the drums sound great, you know, I guess they do.

(48:06):
But that's how so we got we got time for
one more? Yes, right there? Oh that's lady, right here,
answer both questions. I ask you both questions. Okay, we'll
start with you in the back, sir, yep uh, I
love it. Was it always supposed to be episodic or

(48:26):
was there longer? Always episodes are? I always felt from
the beginning it was gonna be four or five parts,
But Jimmy just said what the dilemma was. For two
and a half years, Jimmy and Dre we're not having it.
So it's because of you and o J that we don't.
But that's not you don't. You're not getting an Academy

(48:46):
award because it can't o J made it so an
Academy Awards, you can't have multiple episodes. So Dre and
I wanted to be one two hour episode and you
got an Academy Award. But now you know, but you
are episode five. But you are yes right here, look

(49:11):
like what's your next chapter? Look like what's next? Wow? Um,
well you know right now, I'm an Apple, And um,
I know that there's been some stories lately that says
that I'm not an Apple, but I am. And um,
you know, I'm sixty five years old. I'm gonna be
sixty five in a month or two. And um, I

(49:33):
don't see myself like some of my friends and stuff,
seventy five years old running record, running around doing music.
I don't see myself that way. But eventually I'll be
slowing down. But I'm so committed to getting streaming right
and right now. To me, streaming fundamentally is a utility,

(49:55):
and everybody is so excited and all that, and I
feel it's got to be much more, whether it's Spotify, Amazon, Apple,
you need it needs to be more. And I'm very
driven and the people at Apple Music are very driven
to make it more. We have a road map and uh,

(50:16):
I'm very committed to making that leap in streaming to
where it's more than a utility. So um, I'm gonna
do with Eddie and Tim and the guys that Apple
need me to do. So my next chapter, whatever it is,
whatever form or whatever I'm sitting to do, it is

(50:37):
going to be helping Apple Music get um to that
place where streaming now, where Apple Music needs to be,
where all of streaming needs to be. You see, I'll
give you a little bit of the record business one
my feeling about it right now? You you you you
put the quarter in. Okay, So it's everyone's going crazy

(51:00):
about streaming. Oh we're back to first class and Federal
Express or whatever the hell the record companies do. Right,
They're all excited limousines and first class line. So I
don't feel that. And why I don't feel that is
because let's go to Netflix. Netflix has a unique catalog

(51:21):
because they all buy the HBO and Netflix and they
all have different catalogs Lulu, right, and then they have
on top of that a little thing called six billion
dollars in original content. HBO has three billion, the Amazon
probably has four billion. Well I guess how much original
content music streaming services have zero fundamentally, all the catalogs

(51:47):
are exactly the same. Then there's something else, if we're
going to the Wizard of Oz, that streaming has that
music has that Netflix doesn't have, which is free. We
you can get anything you want in a very decent
way for free. Right, So how could you possibly think

(52:08):
that those two things are equal? Then not right? So
streaming in music has to make a leap, and myself
and all the people at Apple, remember Apple is two
and a half years old. Everyone keeps saying Spotify is
that seventy apples that were then we're in our mid

(52:29):
to high thirds where we are right now, right well,
two and a half years and Spotify is don an
incredible job, Daniel, just getting the deals from the guys
that we all know in the record business a fucking miracle.
Les you put a statue, Let you put a Kobe
Bryant statue of amountside, because just for the deal the
first dearly made you guys know what people I'm talking about.

(52:50):
But two and a half years you know, and the
thought of all streaming to me is not complete yet.
Always going with Jimmy's down on so I'm not down streaming.
I'm just saying it has to be more in order
for it to truly scale and be give the greatest
value possibly give, and it needs to be more. So

(53:11):
I am very committed to that more. And the other
thing is just for what they said in the newspapers
that my stock fested a long time ago, you know,
I mean that I'm besting my stock in August or
something like that. You know. It's like, you know, I'm iman,
we need Donald Trump here to call it fake news.

(53:31):
But none of that ship is real, and some of
it is, but that's not nothing to do with what
I think about. I don't think about that ship. So
the next chapter, however, whatever I'm doing, whatever intensity I'm
working at or not, it's gonna be about if I
can help streaming become the next thing that it needs

(53:52):
to become as far as I'm concerned to scale, you know,
and because what's happening is what will event and as
another thing is happening in the record business, that's very, very,
very important. So it's only a matter of time before
the sixties become the fifties and the fifties become the forties,
and that's and you'll see the music, how it calls

(54:14):
ring people like me die off right, the baby room
is gonna be gone. That means the sixties will be
less important than they are now. Another thing is when
you get to the seventies and eighties, especially the eighties,
there's a lot of re versions of masters and a
lot of deals are made staying YouTube. Bruce Springsteen, I

(54:37):
can name twenty of them sitting right here. Those old deals,
the drifters and a lot of those old records. The
deals are nine five to five the label side. Those
other deals are seventy thirty, seventy eight, twenty the artist side.

(54:59):
So that's gonna affect the math. So when you get
Apple comes on and puts up thirty forty million subscribers,
you're gonna see an influx of money. Absolutely. But then
the third thing, what's going on with YouTube? All of
us that have kids in here, they tell us about
groups we've never heard of because they're on YouTube. So

(55:19):
all of a sudden, you have an artist who has
five million views on YouTube who's never met a record
company or a lawyer. Well guess how much leverage that
artist has going in to make a deal. And a
lot of the new artist deals that are coming out
of very draconian on the side of the artist, which
I completely applaud. But that's a different dynamic in twenty

(55:42):
years from now because what was those old deals are
gonna be replaced by all these new deals and and
if streaming doesn't become this amazing experience, which it's really
good now, but it's not what it needs to be.
So the answer, what's the nick chapter? If I can
contribute to the becoming the next place? I work in space.

(56:06):
I don't work in time. I work in when something
is done, whatever. My I don't have a title at Apple.
I hang around there, you know what I mean. And
I drive everybody nuts, you know, but that's okay. You
know that I get on with them and it's great.
But I don't know I could do that at a

(56:28):
certain level for the rest of my life. Depends on
what I am going to do, what they need me
to do, and um, that's my commitment. And you know,
I don't what am I called? What am I gonna do?
How much am I gonna work? I don't know. I'm
sixty sixty five years old. That sounds like a hundred
and ninety five to me, you know, And when I
was a kid, the mailman, the garbage man, everybody retired

(56:52):
a sixty five. So that's in my head. And when
will I retire. I don't know, but I'm something's gonna change.
But it's got no time on it. It's gotta. It's gotta.
It's got an accomplishment to it. It's gotta. It's gotta.
It's got a reason, and I could do it. Look,
no one reports to me at Apple, but but yet

(57:12):
I somehow involved in running to place. You know, I
just I bring my energy to it. And they loved that.
They accept that, and they're great about it. So I
know I answered the question. I just because what just
went on last week? I mean, it was just so
insane every you know, I don't know, I don't know
how that story got written. It's so bizarre. It's, um,

(57:33):
you know, my stock, I'm leaving me across my stock
vest and order my stock invested a long time ago.
I'm very very well off. Thank God that I got
really lucky. I can afford to say because of where
I come from, and um, and you know, it's that's
all bullshit. But you know, I mean, but my contract
is up in August. But It's the funny thing. I

(57:55):
don't have a contract, so you know, you know, I
have a deal and certain things happen along that deal.
But I mean, I have a contract. Guess you could
call it a contract, but you know, my deal ends
in August, and but we're talking about stuff who but

(58:16):
I don't know, you know. I mean, the bottom line is,
I'm so loyal to the guys at Apple. I love Apple,
but but I really love musicians and streaming is not
there yet. And that's why that article annoyed me. They
usually don't annoy me, but that one annoyed me because

(58:38):
it had nothing to do with reality, had to do
with because something's a lot of money, it's someone they
pushed that on you. You know, it's got nothing to
do with it. So anyway, that was a great question.
Here's here's what we're hoping whenever that next chapter is

(59:00):
that you'll come back and talk and talk more about
How about that, Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for
Alan Hughes and Jimmy Ivan. I will tell you that
shortly after the conversation, I spend a good deal of
time talking to friends and colleagues about the idea of
being of service. Listening to Jimmy Ivan tell that story

(59:24):
completely flipped the script from me and proved that humanity
and humility can be a path to success in any
field you choose. So that's your required listening for today.
Will be here twice a week every week. Find us
wherever fine podcasts are heard. Also, if you plan to

(59:46):
be in Los Angeles, I hope you'll come visit us
at the Grammy Museum. You can go to our website
at grammy museum dot org for all the information on
our activities, are exhibits, and our programs. Now, I'd love
to keep the conversation going, so feel free to hit
a U up on all the social platforms at Grammy Museum. Finally,
thanks to the team that makes required listening happen, Jason James, Justin,

(01:00:08):
Joseph Lynn Sheridan, Jim Kennella Kittrick, Kern's, Miranda Moore, Jason Hope,
Nick Stump, and the entire team at how Stuff Works.
Thanks for listening. Until next time, I'm Scott Goldman.