March 11, 2025 • 40 mins
We've all heard of The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World -- but what are they, exactly? What made these specific seven creations wonders? Why are some equally impressive structures not considered wonders? In the first episode of this continuing series, Ben, Noel and Max set out to learn more Ridiculous History of these ancient wonders... starting with the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, which may have never actually existed.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own
wonder of the podcasting world. Super producer, mister Max william.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I exist. I haven't been on an episode with you,
guys and almost a month.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You've always been. You've always been. You've always been there in.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Spirit like Mufasa and the clouds giving us words of
wisdom from beyond, or are still alive?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I did sneak myself into I did.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I heard episodes that one I did here briefly sneak
with a boop.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's like, oh I missed Max.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
You do a boop right here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I just do a boop.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And you're referring to mister Noel Brown. Let's give it
up for him. I I am often called Ben Bollen
on this show. We are so happy to be back, Max,
who were very much missed, not just by Nolan myself
but by our fellow Ridiculous Historians.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah, it was fun to have Jonathan Strickland, aka the
quizz or in in his.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Normal kind of persona.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I guess it's just his whatever his Clark kent to
h to Superman or super whatever. What's what's a good
alter ego of a super villain? Did usually have alter egos?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Well?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sure? In a couple of horror films, there's been a
guy named doctor Akila that I don't trust.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Did Doctor Doom is a guy? He's Eric something?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Eric Lencher is Magneto. Doctor is literally named Victor von Due.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Victor von Doom, right right right? So okay, wow, okay, well.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Now we have like what green goblin is William Dafoe.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Osborne guys.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Weirdly enough though, the green Goblin mask identical to William
Dafoe's actual.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Face, and uh, ed, we are going to talk about
Wonders of the Ancient World. We're very excited this is
you know, Willem Dafoe is a wonder of the modern
acting world. But where do we get this phrase wonders
of the ancient world? Why are there specifically seven? And
(02:40):
why do people still disagree? This question stayed with us
for a while. This is the first part of a
continuing series. You guys know, we love doing We love
doing series.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
That just occasional series.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yes, History of Condiments Inventors who died by their own hand.
And this one, this one is a love letter to
all our fellow fans of the excellent game Civilization NOL.
(03:15):
Have you ever played Civilization?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I haven't, but I know it's been around for a
long time. And it's sort of like sim City, right, Yeah,
isn't it sort of like it's.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's oddly like the best educational video game of all time.
That's the best way to think of it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. It's a turn based strategy game that tricks you
into learning history.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Top down though, right, like where you're kind of having
to manipulate aspects like almost more like stats kind of.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I guess maybe that's the turn.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You like the emperor for your civilization, but you never die.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And yeah, god emperor, okay, Yeah, and you can win
through a series of different conditions.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
It's resource management. It's I love resource manager. That's one
of my favorite parts of any the RPG. I just
hang out making daggers in the forge, you know, and
selling my wares, right, I never get around to the quests.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean, Civilization. The saying for it that it's famous
is one more turn, right, He's like, I'm gonna do
one more turn, one more turn and then four hours
later you're still saying one more super addictive.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Also, the one big problem I have with it is
the further emphasis on nation states, which I just find
as an authoritarian and a tyrant. I find nation states offensive.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Have you played seven yet?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You can be you can be a tyrant states and seven?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Well, guys, what system do I get it on?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
How do I get in on the conversation and all
of the tyrannical fun and there is.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
All cross compatible not to Yeah, and if you are
playing Civilization like our pal Nol, we wish we could
be there with you to experience it for the first time.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Tell us your favorite sieve hacks also true story. This
is what I mean when I say it tricks people
into learning history. You can we do we trick ourselves? Maybe?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
You get so true?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah you can. In this game, you can construct a
series of unique things, sometimes building sometimes notable historical monuments.
Only one can exist in the world of the game
you're playing, and these are all based on true or
(05:32):
claimed actual historical one.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
One.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, exactly. Enter our buddy Neba Kenzar. When when you
read his name on paper, though, it's like you know
that band i'd subauten. You know, it's like I never
say it right when you see it on paper, it's
just how.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Does that word exist?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But it's n e b u c h A d
n e z z a R, which in my mind
would be neb book chad Nezar.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But yeah, it's Nebuconezer. And he was kind of a
big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, back in his day. If you want to
see the halcyon days, the glory days of Nebuconezer, you're
traveling with us back to the Middle East and you
are exploring the city of Babylon. We want to thank
our research associate Max for this. We also want to
thank Mark Cartwright over at World History Encyclopedia. Who yep, yep, yep.
(06:31):
Applause clause, Yeah, thank you Mark. You have broken this
down for all of us. In the modern day Babylon
is about fifty miles or eighty clicks south of the
modern day metropolis of Baghdad in Iraq, and if you
look at any sort of history of human civilization, you
(06:52):
are going to see Babylon mentioned prominently.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
This is the part of the world that is often
referred to as the cradle of civilization, right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, Yeah, the Delta, the Vans, the Levant, Yeah, the
Fertile Crescent and so on. So Babylon as a story, people,
we believe that people start hanging out there in a
stationary way in the third millennium BCE.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Long time ago.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, a long time ago. And Max, you had a
lovely piece of language here that I want to shout out.
You're saying this occurs back when years counted down, which
is super confusing for every public school student when you
first have to deal with that.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Right, still for me, can you break it down for
us perma public school students in the audience also?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Still, it was super confusing for the people that time,
like why do the numbers go down? Like what are
we counting down to?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Y'all?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
The real shining moment of Babylon, as we understand it
now was in the sixth century BCE, during the reign
of nebuchad Nezer, the second to the city. Yeah. The
city was the capital of a huge empire, and it
was founded by his by nebuchon Nezer's father. Here's another
(08:15):
name we'll love, Nabopolasar, true, true, Nabo po l Assar.
The names were just cooler back then.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
And he had done quite well militarily speaking, with victories
over the Assyrian Empire. Nebukondzer the second would go on
to even greater accolades, including capturing Jerusalem in five ninety
seven BCE.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Jerusalem was a major city at this point.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, it's a true story, and kind of a controversial
one if we're being honest. He reached the He reached
the philosophical dilemma that a lot of warlords and world
conqueror types eventually reach if they don't die first. He said, Look,
I can't just be known for extravagant acts of violence.
(09:05):
I want people to understand that our empire is a
good thing for the world, and I want people to
want to be part of it. So I am going
to make my capital, Babylon the coolest place around. This
is where we absolutely bespoke. Absolutely, yes, yeah, Taylor made
(09:26):
to impress you. And this is where we see architectural
marvels like the Ishtar Gate, which is just adorned with
all sorts of depictions of animals, some of which are
real animals and some of which are animals from folklore
and fable.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Well, it's interesting, Ben, You and I just spent some
time in this general region of the world, in the
city called Doha that got a lot of money, you know,
from oil interests and things like that in relatively recent time.
And the way that city looks and feels just has
that new car smell even to this day, and that
(10:06):
kind of like cutting edge you know, marvel of the
of the modern world kind of feel, and that is
what was being you know, shot for here.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and there was a wall surrounding the city, which
you can also build in the early stages of the
game Civilization just well, just noting that it's one of the.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Long wall though, right, it's what twenty clicks of brick, Yeah, twenty.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Brick clicks, twenty brick clicks. It was again cutting or
cutter edge. This double wall surrounded the city at the time.
So far as we know, this was the largest wall built.
So this is the first guy to build the biggest wall,
or rather, this is the first guy to you know,
(10:53):
make his public and probably his slaves build the world's
biggest one.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well in a wall, you know, certainly while it may
have its aesthetic value, you know, architecturally speaking, you need
something to judge it up a little bit and kind
of you know, decorate your wall.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Even in a game.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
You know, when you build your structure, you eventually want
to put down some throw rugs or some wall sconces,
you know, sure, some torches, perhaps a little balustrade, you know,
maybe a tasteful landscape painting. This is how this is
how new humanity is. At this point, he and his crew,
nepucidez Aer and his crew, they come up with the
(11:30):
idea of cultivating plants, not for the brutal struggle of survival,
but rather for aesthetic purposes, something to enjoy, a nice
backyard garden, pleasure garden, if you will. I don't know
why that term. I don't know why. Pleasure always just
sounds horny to me, even like when they say it
(11:52):
to you.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
At Chick fil A. There's just something about that word
that seems naughty.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, well, especially with Chick fil A, which is a
popular a popular fast food chain based here in our
home state of Georgia. Chick fil A. I think the
language makes it creepy because they also say how may
I serve you?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And they're also a pretty heavily puritanically religious organization, you know,
as a company.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah. Yeah, but that being said, you know, we always
strive for transparency. True at Kathy did give me, the
founder of Chick fil A, did give me a bunch
of money when I became an eagle scout, but he
kept sending me his books as well. So the idea
here is a normal thing now. A lot of people
in the crowd tonight. We're fans of gardening, right, or
(12:39):
we're fans of just growing something like flowers. You don't
eat them, you just take care of them and then
you smell them and you look at them. At this point,
this is a stunning new dare we say, disruptive idea.
They're building what appears to be a paradise on Earth,
and Babylon is one of the first to the post
(13:00):
on this. So the the concept spreads. This is a
historical flex. Shout out to our palace, Jack Miles for dailies.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Coming soon coming.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, we hope if we can get them.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Isn't this also just a way of in this like
inhospitable climate, this part of the world surrounded by desert,
to almost say we can control nature, you know what
I mean. It's like there's a flex to it in
that respect too, almost as like as a show of power,
godlike abilities to like, you know, pull these beautiful plants
out of the earth in a place where they really
(13:33):
don't belong. Look upon my lilies despair to despair or
it rejoics because they're lovely.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Lilies are nice.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Also, check out our earlier episode about real life hermits.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That the garden hermits hanging out there. Are they guarding
the place? Are they just there for aesthetics? What's their deal?
Check out the episode to find out.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And to John Men, real quick, you guys are just
reminding me the way y'all keep talking about. There's this
episode of Star Trek Deep Space nine seasons.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
We know was talking about Star Trek Max.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
No, No, I think you'll appreciate this.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
No, I know we will. I'm just joking. It doesn't
take much for you to bring it to Star Trek. Please.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
But it's the scene between two of the antagonists of
the show, gold to Cot and Wayoun, and they're talking
about the strategy for a war and one of them
is like, yeah, what we should do is we should
blow up Earth, and the Cots like absolutely not. Now,
what we need to do is we need to conquer Earth.
We need to show them that our way is right right,
and their way is wrong and they need confirmed to us.
(14:32):
Then Wayne goes and then we blow it up, and
because's like only if they don't get down with it.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, you know, maybe right, So every open hand can't
evolve into a fist. And that is the story of empire.
We also know that to the point about those that
weird hermit episode of ridiculous History, we know these gardens
were considered, we're considered like paradise on Earth because it
(14:59):
wasn't just a map of cute justo flowers and hedges
and plants. There were also sculptures and water features, and
the views of like the perspective of where you were
supposed to stand and take it all in was very
much part of the design. Allegedly when there's a reason
(15:20):
we keep saying allegedly. So.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
The main motivation for the gardens that Christopher Klein talks
about over at History is as follows. He says, the
Babylonian king Neba Kenazar the second was said to have constructive,
luxurious hanging gardens in the sixth century BC as a
gift to his wife amateus.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Look, folks, if you're listening, always try to impress your
significant other.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
This was very sweet too, because he was trying to
bring her home, you know, to where they were in
this desert climate. She was homesick for the beautiful mountain
and fauna flora rather of her native media, which today
would be comprising the northwestern part of Iran. So in
(16:11):
order to get that desert to support this kind of life,
this kind of growth, you had to figure out some
kind of engineering aspects, you know, irrigation. We know that
a lot of early civilizations had aqueducts and ways of
moving water around. This is very similar to that. They
had to develop these systems involving pumps and water wheels
(16:35):
and cisterns or reservoirs, you know, kind of man made
reservoirs that would be able to raise and lower the
water from the Euphrates River to the very top the
tippy top of the gardens. And this was quite a
distance and quite a change in elevation. So the stuff
was mega innovative for the time. And honestly, I mean,
they haven't figured out how to do it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Much better than that. I mean, water works largely.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Of course, there are pumps they're talking about that here too,
but gravity, you know, they just figured out how to
harness gravity to their to their benefit.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Absolutely, this is a huge flex And if we if
we go back to our pal Mark Cartwright, we see
that the what we call the hanging Gardens of Babylon
and legend and pseudo historically accurate stuff today I used
to have a different name. It was sometimes called the
hanging gardens of Semi Ramas, named after a an Assyrian
(17:28):
ruler who occurred so long ago that she became kind
of a godlike figure, a symbol of divinity and the
later right like Talos and Skyrim or like you know,
the first Emperor of China uh Greco. Romans later believed
(17:50):
that this Assyrian ruler extensively rebuilds Babylon in the ninth
century BCE. This is where we go to Herodotus, the
Greek historian, probably best known from Assassin's Creed Odyssey. He
describes that irrigation system you're talking about there, Noel, and
he he breaks down enough detail that we and modern
(18:16):
historians believe there was a massive innovative irrigation system in
Babylon and around the walls surrounding that city. But our
buddy heavy h does not mention any gardens specifically, So
why did he not mention one of the most spectacular
(18:37):
things about the most impressive city in the world. To
be fair, he also doesn't mention the Great Sphinx when
he talks about Giza, So.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, right, and we know the Great Sphinx exists, right, correct,
that is confirmed it's still around, right No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I thought so.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it's not in great shape.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
But yeah, I know it's missing a nose and all
of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But the point being that that thing is equally as
captivating and worth a mention as these hanging gardens, or
the implication being that maybe the hanging gardens didn't exist,
But you said he didn't mention that, so then your
point being that maybe he just didn't see them.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, maybe he was in a hurry, maybe he thought
that was just day one stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The first Oh, good point, Ben, because in the sash
One Towers episode we did recently on stuff they don't
want you to know, a big part about why there
wasn't more Hubbub made about these things was that folks
traveling through might have just seen them as just you know,
kind of standard, sort of like they were just used
to seeing them.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah. Yeah. In that case, the European explorers definitely looked
around and said, eh, yeah, big whoop, we have towers too.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Just like when someone wants you to look at their
new car, you're like, I've seen a car, Like, I'm
really happy for you and everything, but I know what
a car looks like.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Are you kidding? I get so excited I can't say
your car.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Well that you're different kind of person, Ben, and I
appreciate that about you, But in general, I think a
lot of folks will just like feign interest like I've
seen a car.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
They're more just happy for their friend.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, I hear you. I hear you, And we know that,
we know that there are ancient sources that do talk
about the gardens. Brosis of costs is well, actually it's
a it's the non de plume of a priest named
Belle Uzru from Babylon.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Why would he change his name? Bell Uzru is way cooler.
It is way cooler.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Really, he moved to the island of KOs and just
changed his name, and you know, got himself buttoned up
as a.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Grecian Okay, got it?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
A Grecian, not a Greco that only refers to like
stuff like Greco.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
But you're a Roman, So why aren't you a Greco?
You're a Grecian. I'm sorry these terms baffle me sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Now when you say that, all I can think of
is how much I want Greek food? Like, right, so good,
it's so good.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Well, you know what, Ben, there's some pretty solid Greek
places that will deliver to both of us. Maybe we
should be uber Eats buddies, like you have lunch together
over zoom.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That'd be cute, that would be so adorable. Max, would
you would you have a virtual lunch with us all three?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah, I'll gift it to you guys. Okay, Greek food
for all the condition.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
But Ben, as you know, Greek thermatologist, Yeah, that's the
dream Greek dermatologist condition.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
The condition prevents you from enjoying Greek cuisine.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
We were at a wedding of a mutual front of
all three of ours, and Ben and I are like,
we had to move Ben's cars on that when we
were out there walking and we were of course talking
about civilization.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Six that's the best part.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Accurate, the callback, that's the tiant.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So I'm telling Ben about the condition, but I'm also
talking about how much of Greek food. He he just
kind of goes Max. The answer is simple, you guy
just kind of find you a Greek thermatologist like that
that that that that's the solution there.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Dude, I'm telling exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And can I just say Max, congratulations and all the
oscar buzz around the condition this season, I'm sorry your
lead actor Demi Moore turned in a fantastic performance, didn't
take on the oscar.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I think she was robbed.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
You'll get them next time. So if you happen to
be a single available Greek dermatologist with excellent taste in podcasters,
we have a guy named Max Williams that we'd love
for you to meet.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Indeed, but Max, you pointed out off Mike when we
had a bit of a derail a minute ago, that
the writings that he left behind we really only have
excerpts of.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, we have we have other later authors quoting belle
usru or borosis, and a lot of the thing is
with that, with all the cribbing and the quoting that
occurs in ancient history, we have to look at some
other sort of cooperating evidence, and that's where we see
(22:57):
that a lot of his quote not did descriptions of
Babylon do seem to be supported by physical archaeology. He
talks about, for instance, high stone terraces that are supposed
to look like mountains, and how there are a lot
of trees and flowers planted on those mountains entirely to
(23:19):
kind of recreate again that part of Iran.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And when we say the hanging gardens, the idea of that,
I mean it's a lot of these things are coming
down from like the ceiling essentially, right.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, And this is both form and function because it
is a it's a foundational piece of the irrigation methods
that are deployed here. And there are sources at the
time who, well a little bit later, who disagree on
the actual architects of the gardens. And sometimes you'll see
(23:55):
people describing the gardens as located in different places, like
these are terraces over in this part of town, or no,
they're at the royal palace, or no, they're kind of
next door to the royal Palace. It's like when it's
like when you hear old people who have lived in
a city for a long time, whenever they this is
a personal thing, because I'm noticing it as I age.
(24:16):
Sometimes when I'm telling stories, and I've seen actually the
three of us do this too. I get lost in
the directions and I'm like, no, that was on you
know sixth Street.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Brother, I'm not good at that in real life, let
alone recounting something from memory. It's like it's like I'm
a little grand dad trying to talk about where the
old A and P used to be exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's the thing. We get lost in the geography, and
it can derail the stories. So we see that happening.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Humans have always been the same, and we see people
arguing about how how they were constructed, you know, were
there layers of soil and stone or lead? How did
they prevent the water from seeping through the Harris Is
At this point, as we record in twenty twenty five,
(25:04):
and we're not being We're not poo pooing it, We're
not throwing cold water on the idea. We do have
to tell you there is no concrete proof that the
hanging gardens existed.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
We do, however, have an account from a German archaeologist
named Robert Caldewey who uncovered some foundational chambers and these
kind of you know, caverns, these vaults in the northeastern
part of a palace or the palace rather of Babylon,
and some of these vaults, one in particular, might have
(25:40):
been used as part of a pumping system or what
was known as a chain pump, and this would have
potentially been part of a subterranean structure powering kind of
the irrigation system of the hanging gardens.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, that's the idea, right, and that's cool, that's exciting.
It still technically is kind of certain substantial evidence, and
we can't here's the thing. Unlike the Sphinx, unlike the Pyramids,
unlike other ancient wonders, we cannot go see the Hanging
Gardens today. People have tried their own reproductions or their
own homages to it, but we still don't know whether
(26:18):
it existed.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Well, and yet it still is listed as one of
the wonders of the world.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, one of the interesting seven wonders,
just because the other six we can check out. The
other six are way more confirmed to have existed.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Should we list them out just to just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Let's do it, because this will give all of us
playing along at home a little bit of a sense
of where we're going with this series. There's the Great Pyramid, one,
Hanging Gardens, two, the Temple of Artemis, three, Statue of
Zoos and Olympia. Uh, that's for the mausoleum at Halikarnassis,
the Colossus of Rhodes, and of course the Lighthouse of Alexandria.
(27:09):
Those are the those are the like canonical seven.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And of those, which ones are actually we able to visit.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
There's the only one that's still standing, the Pyramid. Sure, yeah,
the Pyramids are the only one that's still standing. God,
but we know the other ones exist.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We know for sure the other ones existed. And again,
what's what's fascinating. As we'll see in this series, there
have been multiple attempts to do reproductions of these things
because they're just super cool, man, they're super First off,
humanity has always been sort of a hold my beer
species right and saying, let's build something huge, you know
(27:46):
what I mean, look upon my work, see Mighty in
Despair and so on. But yeah, the Pyramid, the Great Pyramid,
would be the only one currently that we can we
can go see. And I think it's weird that the
Sphinx doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is weird, right, it's a sub wonder, they would say.
There's a lot of debate. Obviously, there are a bunch
more wonders after this, like you know the taj Ma Hall.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Sure, yeah, the Great Wall and your what yeah, not module,
I would even say, but the yeah, so we know
that after Here's why there's debate. After Nebekonezer, Babylon was
still an important city as part of several different empires,
and the rulers of both of these later empires, the
(28:37):
Akamenid and the Solucid Empires, both of their top people
would use the Palace at Babylon as their main hangout,
as their white house. So with all this argument, all
this hullabaloo and discourse about where the hanging gardens actually
(28:57):
were in Babylon and whether they existed, we see, like
you were saying, people are finding vaulted rooms, they're finding
stuff that clearly indicate some sort of irrigation system, but
they're not finding positive proof of the hanging gardens actually existing.
And this is where we get to Christopher Klein actually
(29:19):
existing there.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Stiff Kleine, writing for History, suggests that it's possible that
this search was being conducted in the wrong place, according
to Oxford University doctor Stephanie Daily, in fact, a scholar
in ancient Mesopotamian languages who found evidence in some new
translations of ancient texts belonging to King Censharib. They described
(29:44):
his own mega mega palace, you know, completely bespoke, referred
to in the writings as unrivaled palace as being a
wonder for all people. He also mentioned a technology a
bronze water raising kind of I guess it's a screw.
(30:06):
What it is, in fact, is that's it's described. It's
not you know, what you would think of as a
as a hardware screw, but it is a spiral and
it was invented by Archimedes, who also invented that time
travel device from that Indiana Jones movie that everyone loved.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Right, Okay, a couple of things there we've because I
have to do it, man, We talked about this on stuff.
They don't want you to know. Archimedes probably did invent
some version of this, but it's a matter of branding
because people clearly invented this screw parallel, Yeah, they invented
it before him, parallel thinking as you said, he was
(30:44):
just the most famous guy at the time, so he
got his name attached to it.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I guess I still don't fully understand how the technology works.
I don't know, Max, maybe this is something that you
could help with. Like it is a spiral and the
water is meant to travel upward, right, so how does
that exactly work?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Screw it? Okay, Yeah, it's actually very simple, but because
you think about the way, but it functions in the
same way that a screw would work on grander scale.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, it's it's one of the earliest documented hydraulic machines.
So you're right that moves water. Like you said earlier,
it leverages gravity. So depending on the angle that you
put it on, when you turn the screw through one
mechanism or another, the screw kind of builds a ramp
to move the water up.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Got it. Okay, Yeah, that's pretty neat.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's it's it's weird, it's it's I don't know. I
think it's super cool. I know it can sound kind
of like we're maybe easily impressed, but order just a
bunch of dorks, which is also entirely possible.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yes, we're a good company with ridiculous historians, we hope.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yes, they're yeah, agreed on all counts. And we know,
like I love the point bringing up here the idea
that there may have been some kind of hanging garden
somewhere else, relatively nearby, right in the Middle Eastern area
Nineva Mosul something like that. We know aqueduct technology was
(32:16):
very much in play. We've got some boss relief images
from the Royal Palace and nine US showing very very lush,
fertile gardens that were being irrigated through an aqueduct. Yeah,
and we know that in that part of the world,
in that city scape, the topography was less flat, there
(32:39):
was more variation, so it would have made it easier
to elevate water to the gardens versus you know, Babylon,
which has a relatively flat landscape. And maybe then the
confusion over the location of these gardens could be due
to the passage of empires, because the Assyrian forces honkeered
(33:00):
Babylon in six 't eighty nine BCE, and after that takeover,
NINEV got a new name. It was called the New Babylon.
So this can be super confusing to later historians and researchers.
So maybe what we're maybe the hanging gardens did exist,
but instead of being hanging guardens of Babylon, they were
(33:20):
hanging gardens of Nineva. This is crazy because it, like
I was trying to think of a more modern comparison.
Imagine if thousands of years from now we have a
future historian who is totally convinced that the Statue of
Liberty is in Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Yeah, for sure, that'd be interesting.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Gosh, I always think whenever I hear about historical accounts
of the Statue of Liberty, I can't not think about
the planet of the apes. They blew it up. We
were just talking about blowing things up. Yes, whole planets. Yeah,
super into the idea. And I hope that statement ages well.
Oh boy, we know that we know that there is
(34:03):
indication at least that something like the gardens existed. Something
in the real world informed this legend of an ancient wonder.
We just aren't sure on the specifics because of the
great game of telephone. And here's the good news, folks.
As we're recording, there are some people way smarter than us,
(34:24):
some real boffins and eggheads and Indiana Jones types who
are conducting science and archaeology in these areas. So they
may well, discover solid one hundred percent inarguable proof of
the hanging gardens of Babylon, or the hanging guardens of Nineveh,
or the hanging guards of Mosul, or you know, at
(34:46):
this point, just like a garden preferably hanging, preferably hanging.
And also shout out to the early Cure song Total
Banger the Hanging Gardens.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Check it out. It's a real goth fantasia of a tune. Now.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I love that you're pointing out that, Nol and we
also we also just before we wrap for time, we
have to address something that has surely been on everybody's
mind from the very top of this show.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
What is it, Ben, What is it? I want to
know if it's on my mind?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh gosh, I hope it is, no, because when you
finally when you get to play civilization, and I'm so
happy for it is. Yeah, one of the questions you're
going to have is you're going to have this choice
of wonders, right, and it evolves as your civilization does.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
But you can only have one in the world. Wasn't
that a thing you talked about at the top.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
So you pick your wonder and you written and they're
modeled after these things.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You can build multiple wonders. Other empires will try to
build them too, so you can build the Pyramids or
Stonehenge or Big ben or I think Broadway. There are
a ton of them, but if some Broadway, Yeah, yeah,
there were. They were stretched for ideas square, Yeah, there were.
There were a little stretch for ideas.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Commercial bloat sorry, hot take times square.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yes, commercial bloat is a way to win civilizations. Yes, okay,
not in six, but I think it's seven. They brought
it back in previous ones that.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Called commercial bloat. This is like trade.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's like the there's the culture war. Uh, there's the
economic victory, there's uh domination victory.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
And seven.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Now how they do it?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I was the three ages, and in the first age
there's an economic Golden age, which is like you get
by having by acquiring resources, especially luxury resources and stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Seven.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
By the way, it's really fun and it's getting better.
They just released the first.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Update nice and we'll I'm going to get in immediately
after we wrap this session. I also just found out
for any gamers in the audience, there's a new Monster
Hunter gamey PS five that I just got and I'm
only just now kind of almost through the intro tutorial part.
I love the last Monster Hunter game, but I found
it a little overwhelming at times, and apparently this new
(37:00):
one that.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Pairs that down a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
So gonna get back into that one and then get
the new Civilization game.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And I'm still trying to sleep with a lot of
characters in Balder's Gate three, So wish me luck you guys.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
So Balder's Gate three, man, that was too much for me.
I watched my friend play when he was visiting, and
I was just like, I don't know if this is
for me. It's too small to play on a TV too.
It's like all the text is so small. Oh yeah, yeah,
maybe a better experience on a PC.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, perhaps right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And the question here is should you build the hanging
gardens in Civilization?
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, It's going to depend upon your empire's mileage and
the approach you take to the game. I would say,
don't necessarily prioritize it. There are better wonders out there.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Hanging gardens is always such an early wonder, and especially
because like if you play on any difficulty above Prince,
which they've renamed in the newest one, but like Prince
is like where everyone starts equal. But the other versions
of the game, especially once you get up like a
mortal or deity, the AI have significant advantages on you,
especially early games. So it's like, if you decide I'm
(38:11):
getting hanging gardens, cool, you're not getting anything else. Socially,
in Civilization six, it's like I want do you want
to hanging gardens? Or do I want a religion?
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And in a lot of ways, it's fine if you
can get it, or if someone's not going for it,
then it's great because it'll make your city into a
metropolis very quickly. But there is better wonders.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
I gotta say, as a person who always picks the
science condition for victory, I'm all about going to space,
you know what I mean. That's a classic human Yeah.
I can't wait to hear about your experience there and
all and folk reach for the stars. That's a good
advice for everyone to take home. There we go, There
we go. That's what we call a wrap up. Folks,
Thank you so much for tuning in. There's much more
(38:53):
to get to join us. Later. We're going to explore
some stories about Apple and apples be not in the
way and the beats and a besh and a fab whoa.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Well done, jim lely sweet and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
We're going to uh We're also going to have some
more adventures ahead, some special guests, some cameos. We can't
wait for you to be along. So thank you for
tuning in and also, of course thanks to our super
producer and research associate for today's episode, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
That's right, huge thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Christa Frasciotis and Eve jeffco here in spirit and Ben.
Just a quick thing to say if anybody wanted to
reach out to us or suggesting the episodes, We're still
having gotten the keys back to our official Ridiculous Sister
and social media.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
But you can find this as human people on the
internet if you wish. I'm how now Noel Brown on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
I am calling myself in a burst of creativity at
Ben Bullen wherever you find a place with an at sign.
You can also hit me up directly on the website
Benboland dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Good you lock that down, man, than being your name
and all yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Name too, yeah, with great affection to the other four
bin bulliins in the world, and yes I do know
them all. I reached out to them and I think
I creeped them out a little big thanks of course,
the rude dude. It's a ridiculous crime. And Noel, thanks
to you man, God you as well.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
You're you're, you're the eighth wonder of the of the world.
Ben in my heart because of the Oh yeah, for sure.
Whatever the next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own
wonder of the podcasting world. Super producer, mister Max william.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I exist. I haven't been on an episode with you,
guys and almost a month.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You've always been. You've always been. You've always been there in.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Spirit like Mufasa and the clouds giving us words of
wisdom from beyond, or are still alive?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I did sneak myself into I did.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I heard episodes that one I did here briefly sneak
with a boop.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's like, oh I missed Max.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
You do a boop right here?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I just do a boop.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And you're referring to mister Noel Brown. Let's give it
up for him. I I am often called Ben Bollen
on this show. We are so happy to be back, Max,
who were very much missed, not just by Nolan myself
but by our fellow Ridiculous Historians.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah, it was fun to have Jonathan Strickland, aka the
quizz or in in his.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Normal kind of persona.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I guess it's just his whatever his Clark kent to
h to Superman or super whatever. What's what's a good
alter ego of a super villain? Did usually have alter egos?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Well?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Sure? In a couple of horror films, there's been a
guy named doctor Akila that I don't trust.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Did Doctor Doom is a guy? He's Eric something?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Eric Lencher is Magneto. Doctor is literally named Victor von Due.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Victor von Doom, right right right? So okay, wow, okay, well.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Now we have like what green goblin is William Dafoe.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Osborne guys.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Weirdly enough though, the green Goblin mask identical to William
Dafoe's actual.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Face, and uh, ed, we are going to talk about
Wonders of the Ancient World. We're very excited this is
you know, Willem Dafoe is a wonder of the modern
acting world. But where do we get this phrase wonders
of the ancient world? Why are there specifically seven? And
(02:40):
why do people still disagree? This question stayed with us
for a while. This is the first part of a
continuing series. You guys know, we love doing We love
doing series.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
That just occasional series.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yes, History of Condiments Inventors who died by their own hand.
And this one, this one is a love letter to
all our fellow fans of the excellent game Civilization NOL.
(03:15):
Have you ever played Civilization?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I haven't, but I know it's been around for a
long time. And it's sort of like sim City, right, Yeah,
isn't it sort of like it's.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
It's oddly like the best educational video game of all time.
That's the best way to think of it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. It's a turn based strategy game that tricks you
into learning history.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Top down though, right, like where you're kind of having
to manipulate aspects like almost more like stats kind of.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I guess maybe that's the turn.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You like the emperor for your civilization, but you never die.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And yeah, god emperor, okay, Yeah, and you can win
through a series of different conditions.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
It's resource management. It's I love resource manager. That's one
of my favorite parts of any the RPG. I just
hang out making daggers in the forge, you know, and
selling my wares, right, I never get around to the quests.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean, Civilization. The saying for it that it's famous
is one more turn, right, He's like, I'm gonna do
one more turn, one more turn and then four hours
later you're still saying one more super addictive.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Also, the one big problem I have with it is
the further emphasis on nation states, which I just find
as an authoritarian and a tyrant. I find nation states offensive.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Have you played seven yet?
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You can be you can be a tyrant states and seven?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Well, guys, what system do I get it on?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
How do I get in on the conversation and all
of the tyrannical fun and there is.
Speaker 5 (04:45):
All cross compatible not to Yeah, and if you are
playing Civilization like our pal Nol, we wish we could
be there with you to experience it for the first time.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Tell us your favorite sieve hacks also true story. This
is what I mean when I say it tricks people
into learning history. You can we do we trick ourselves? Maybe?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:09):
You get so true?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah you can. In this game, you can construct a
series of unique things, sometimes building sometimes notable historical monuments.
Only one can exist in the world of the game
you're playing, and these are all based on true or
(05:32):
claimed actual historical one.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
One.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, exactly. Enter our buddy Neba Kenzar. When when you
read his name on paper, though, it's like you know
that band i'd subauten. You know, it's like I never
say it right when you see it on paper, it's
just how.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Does that word exist?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But it's n e b u c h A d
n e z z a R, which in my mind
would be neb book chad Nezar.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But yeah, it's Nebuconezer. And he was kind of a
big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, back in his day. If you want to
see the halcyon days, the glory days of Nebuconezer, you're
traveling with us back to the Middle East and you
are exploring the city of Babylon. We want to thank
our research associate Max for this. We also want to
thank Mark Cartwright over at World History Encyclopedia. Who yep, yep, yep.
(06:31):
Applause clause, Yeah, thank you Mark. You have broken this
down for all of us. In the modern day Babylon
is about fifty miles or eighty clicks south of the
modern day metropolis of Baghdad in Iraq, and if you
look at any sort of history of human civilization, you
(06:52):
are going to see Babylon mentioned prominently.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
This is the part of the world that is often
referred to as the cradle of civilization, right.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, Yeah, the Delta, the Vans, the Levant, Yeah, the
Fertile Crescent and so on. So Babylon as a story, people,
we believe that people start hanging out there in a
stationary way in the third millennium BCE.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Long time ago.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, a long time ago. And Max, you had a
lovely piece of language here that I want to shout out.
You're saying this occurs back when years counted down, which
is super confusing for every public school student when you
first have to deal with that.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Right, still for me, can you break it down for
us perma public school students in the audience also?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Still, it was super confusing for the people that time,
like why do the numbers go down? Like what are
we counting down to?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Y'all?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
The real shining moment of Babylon, as we understand it
now was in the sixth century BCE, during the reign
of nebuchad Nezer, the second to the city. Yeah. The
city was the capital of a huge empire, and it
was founded by his by nebuchon Nezer's father. Here's another
(08:15):
name we'll love, Nabopolasar, true, true, Nabo po l Assar.
The names were just cooler back then.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
And he had done quite well militarily speaking, with victories
over the Assyrian Empire. Nebukondzer the second would go on
to even greater accolades, including capturing Jerusalem in five ninety
seven BCE.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Jerusalem was a major city at this point.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, it's a true story, and kind of a controversial
one if we're being honest. He reached the He reached
the philosophical dilemma that a lot of warlords and world
conqueror types eventually reach if they don't die first. He said, Look,
I can't just be known for extravagant acts of violence.
(09:05):
I want people to understand that our empire is a
good thing for the world, and I want people to
want to be part of it. So I am going
to make my capital, Babylon the coolest place around. This
is where we absolutely bespoke. Absolutely, yes, yeah, Taylor made
(09:26):
to impress you. And this is where we see architectural
marvels like the Ishtar Gate, which is just adorned with
all sorts of depictions of animals, some of which are
real animals and some of which are animals from folklore
and fable.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Well, it's interesting, Ben, You and I just spent some
time in this general region of the world, in the
city called Doha that got a lot of money, you know,
from oil interests and things like that in relatively recent time.
And the way that city looks and feels just has
that new car smell even to this day, and that
(10:06):
kind of like cutting edge you know, marvel of the
of the modern world kind of feel, and that is
what was being you know, shot for here.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and there was a wall surrounding the city, which
you can also build in the early stages of the
game Civilization just well, just noting that it's one of the.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Long wall though, right, it's what twenty clicks of brick, Yeah, twenty.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Brick clicks, twenty brick clicks. It was again cutting or
cutter edge. This double wall surrounded the city at the time.
So far as we know, this was the largest wall built.
So this is the first guy to build the biggest wall,
or rather, this is the first guy to you know,
(10:53):
make his public and probably his slaves build the world's
biggest one.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well in a wall, you know, certainly while it may
have its aesthetic value, you know, architecturally speaking, you need
something to judge it up a little bit and kind
of you know, decorate your wall.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Even in a game.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
You know, when you build your structure, you eventually want
to put down some throw rugs or some wall sconces,
you know, sure, some torches, perhaps a little balustrade, you know,
maybe a tasteful landscape painting. This is how this is
how new humanity is. At this point, he and his crew,
nepucidez Aer and his crew, they come up with the
(11:30):
idea of cultivating plants, not for the brutal struggle of survival,
but rather for aesthetic purposes, something to enjoy, a nice
backyard garden, pleasure garden, if you will. I don't know
why that term. I don't know why. Pleasure always just
sounds horny to me, even like when they say it
(11:52):
to you.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
At Chick fil A. There's just something about that word
that seems naughty.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, well, especially with Chick fil A, which is a
popular a popular fast food chain based here in our
home state of Georgia. Chick fil A. I think the
language makes it creepy because they also say how may
I serve you?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And they're also a pretty heavily puritanically religious organization, you know,
as a company.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah. Yeah, but that being said, you know, we always
strive for transparency. True at Kathy did give me, the
founder of Chick fil A, did give me a bunch
of money when I became an eagle scout, but he
kept sending me his books as well. So the idea
here is a normal thing now. A lot of people
in the crowd tonight. We're fans of gardening, right, or
(12:39):
we're fans of just growing something like flowers. You don't
eat them, you just take care of them and then
you smell them and you look at them. At this point,
this is a stunning new dare we say, disruptive idea.
They're building what appears to be a paradise on Earth,
and Babylon is one of the first to the post
(13:00):
on this. So the the concept spreads. This is a
historical flex. Shout out to our palace, Jack Miles for dailies.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Coming soon coming.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, we hope if we can get them.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Isn't this also just a way of in this like
inhospitable climate, this part of the world surrounded by desert,
to almost say we can control nature, you know what
I mean. It's like there's a flex to it in
that respect too, almost as like as a show of power,
godlike abilities to like, you know, pull these beautiful plants
out of the earth in a place where they really
(13:33):
don't belong. Look upon my lilies despair to despair or
it rejoics because they're lovely.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Lilies are nice.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Also, check out our earlier episode about real life hermits.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
That the garden hermits hanging out there. Are they guarding
the place? Are they just there for aesthetics? What's their deal?
Check out the episode to find out.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
And to John Men, real quick, you guys are just
reminding me the way y'all keep talking about. There's this
episode of Star Trek Deep Space nine seasons.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
We know was talking about Star Trek Max.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
No, No, I think you'll appreciate this.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
No, I know we will. I'm just joking. It doesn't
take much for you to bring it to Star Trek. Please.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
But it's the scene between two of the antagonists of
the show, gold to Cot and Wayoun, and they're talking
about the strategy for a war and one of them
is like, yeah, what we should do is we should
blow up Earth, and the Cots like absolutely not. Now,
what we need to do is we need to conquer Earth.
We need to show them that our way is right right,
and their way is wrong and they need confirmed to us.
(14:32):
Then Wayne goes and then we blow it up, and
because's like only if they don't get down with it.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, you know, maybe right, So every open hand can't
evolve into a fist. And that is the story of empire.
We also know that to the point about those that
weird hermit episode of ridiculous History, we know these gardens
were considered, we're considered like paradise on Earth because it
(14:59):
wasn't just a map of cute justo flowers and hedges
and plants. There were also sculptures and water features, and
the views of like the perspective of where you were
supposed to stand and take it all in was very
much part of the design. Allegedly when there's a reason
(15:20):
we keep saying allegedly. So.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
The main motivation for the gardens that Christopher Klein talks
about over at History is as follows. He says, the
Babylonian king Neba Kenazar the second was said to have constructive,
luxurious hanging gardens in the sixth century BC as a
gift to his wife amateus.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Look, folks, if you're listening, always try to impress your
significant other.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
This was very sweet too, because he was trying to
bring her home, you know, to where they were in
this desert climate. She was homesick for the beautiful mountain
and fauna flora rather of her native media, which today
would be comprising the northwestern part of Iran. So in
(16:11):
order to get that desert to support this kind of life,
this kind of growth, you had to figure out some
kind of engineering aspects, you know, irrigation. We know that
a lot of early civilizations had aqueducts and ways of
moving water around. This is very similar to that. They
had to develop these systems involving pumps and water wheels
(16:35):
and cisterns or reservoirs, you know, kind of man made
reservoirs that would be able to raise and lower the
water from the Euphrates River to the very top the
tippy top of the gardens. And this was quite a
distance and quite a change in elevation. So the stuff
was mega innovative for the time. And honestly, I mean,
they haven't figured out how to do it.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
Much better than that. I mean, water works largely.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Of course, there are pumps they're talking about that here too,
but gravity, you know, they just figured out how to
harness gravity to their to their benefit.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Absolutely, this is a huge flex And if we if
we go back to our pal Mark Cartwright, we see
that the what we call the hanging Gardens of Babylon
and legend and pseudo historically accurate stuff today I used
to have a different name. It was sometimes called the
hanging gardens of Semi Ramas, named after a an Assyrian
(17:28):
ruler who occurred so long ago that she became kind
of a godlike figure, a symbol of divinity and the
later right like Talos and Skyrim or like you know,
the first Emperor of China uh Greco. Romans later believed
(17:50):
that this Assyrian ruler extensively rebuilds Babylon in the ninth
century BCE. This is where we go to Herodotus, the
Greek historian, probably best known from Assassin's Creed Odyssey. He
describes that irrigation system you're talking about there, Noel, and
he he breaks down enough detail that we and modern
(18:16):
historians believe there was a massive innovative irrigation system in
Babylon and around the walls surrounding that city. But our
buddy heavy h does not mention any gardens specifically, So
why did he not mention one of the most spectacular
(18:37):
things about the most impressive city in the world. To
be fair, he also doesn't mention the Great Sphinx when
he talks about Giza, So.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Well, right, and we know the Great Sphinx exists, right, correct,
that is confirmed it's still around, right No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I thought so.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it's not in great shape.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
But yeah, I know it's missing a nose and all
of that stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
But the point being that that thing is equally as
captivating and worth a mention as these hanging gardens, or
the implication being that maybe the hanging gardens didn't exist,
But you said he didn't mention that, so then your
point being that maybe he just didn't see them.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, maybe he was in a hurry, maybe he thought
that was just day one stuff.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The first Oh, good point, Ben, because in the sash
One Towers episode we did recently on stuff they don't
want you to know, a big part about why there
wasn't more Hubbub made about these things was that folks
traveling through might have just seen them as just you know,
kind of standard, sort of like they were just used
to seeing them.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah. Yeah. In that case, the European explorers definitely looked
around and said, eh, yeah, big whoop, we have towers too.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Just like when someone wants you to look at their
new car, you're like, I've seen a car, Like, I'm
really happy for you and everything, but I know what
a car looks like.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Are you kidding? I get so excited I can't say
your car.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Well that you're different kind of person, Ben, and I
appreciate that about you, But in general, I think a
lot of folks will just like feign interest like I've
seen a car.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
They're more just happy for their friend.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, I hear you. I hear you, And we know that,
we know that there are ancient sources that do talk
about the gardens. Brosis of costs is well, actually it's
a it's the non de plume of a priest named
Belle Uzru from Babylon.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Why would he change his name? Bell Uzru is way cooler.
It is way cooler.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Really, he moved to the island of KOs and just
changed his name, and you know, got himself buttoned up
as a.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Grecian Okay, got it?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
A Grecian, not a Greco that only refers to like
stuff like Greco.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
But you're a Roman, So why aren't you a Greco?
You're a Grecian. I'm sorry these terms baffle me sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Now when you say that, all I can think of
is how much I want Greek food? Like, right, so good,
it's so good.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Well, you know what, Ben, there's some pretty solid Greek
places that will deliver to both of us. Maybe we
should be uber Eats buddies, like you have lunch together
over zoom.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
That'd be cute, that would be so adorable. Max, would
you would you have a virtual lunch with us all three?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah, I'll gift it to you guys. Okay, Greek food
for all the condition.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
But Ben, as you know, Greek thermatologist, Yeah, that's the
dream Greek dermatologist condition.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
The condition prevents you from enjoying Greek cuisine.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
We were at a wedding of a mutual front of
all three of ours, and Ben and I are like,
we had to move Ben's cars on that when we
were out there walking and we were of course talking
about civilization.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Six that's the best part.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Accurate, the callback, that's the tiant.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
So I'm telling Ben about the condition, but I'm also
talking about how much of Greek food. He he just
kind of goes Max. The answer is simple, you guy
just kind of find you a Greek thermatologist like that
that that that that's the solution there.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Dude, I'm telling exactly.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And can I just say Max, congratulations and all the
oscar buzz around the condition this season, I'm sorry your
lead actor Demi Moore turned in a fantastic performance, didn't
take on the oscar.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
I think she was robbed.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
You'll get them next time. So if you happen to
be a single available Greek dermatologist with excellent taste in podcasters,
we have a guy named Max Williams that we'd love
for you to meet.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Indeed, but Max, you pointed out off Mike when we
had a bit of a derail a minute ago, that
the writings that he left behind we really only have
excerpts of.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, we have we have other later authors quoting belle
usru or borosis, and a lot of the thing is
with that, with all the cribbing and the quoting that
occurs in ancient history, we have to look at some
other sort of cooperating evidence, and that's where we see
(22:57):
that a lot of his quote not did descriptions of
Babylon do seem to be supported by physical archaeology. He
talks about, for instance, high stone terraces that are supposed
to look like mountains, and how there are a lot
of trees and flowers planted on those mountains entirely to
(23:19):
kind of recreate again that part of Iran.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And when we say the hanging gardens, the idea of that,
I mean it's a lot of these things are coming
down from like the ceiling essentially, right.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, And this is both form and function because it
is a it's a foundational piece of the irrigation methods
that are deployed here. And there are sources at the
time who, well a little bit later, who disagree on
the actual architects of the gardens. And sometimes you'll see
(23:55):
people describing the gardens as located in different places, like
these are terraces over in this part of town, or no,
they're at the royal palace, or no, they're kind of
next door to the royal Palace. It's like when it's
like when you hear old people who have lived in
a city for a long time, whenever they this is
a personal thing, because I'm noticing it as I age.
(24:16):
Sometimes when I'm telling stories, and I've seen actually the
three of us do this too. I get lost in
the directions and I'm like, no, that was on you
know sixth Street.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Brother, I'm not good at that in real life, let
alone recounting something from memory. It's like it's like I'm
a little grand dad trying to talk about where the
old A and P used to be exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's the thing. We get lost in the geography, and
it can derail the stories. So we see that happening.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Now.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Humans have always been the same, and we see people
arguing about how how they were constructed, you know, were
there layers of soil and stone or lead? How did
they prevent the water from seeping through the Harris Is
At this point, as we record in twenty twenty five,
(25:04):
and we're not being We're not poo pooing it, We're
not throwing cold water on the idea. We do have
to tell you there is no concrete proof that the
hanging gardens existed.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
We do, however, have an account from a German archaeologist
named Robert Caldewey who uncovered some foundational chambers and these
kind of you know, caverns, these vaults in the northeastern
part of a palace or the palace rather of Babylon,
and some of these vaults, one in particular, might have
(25:40):
been used as part of a pumping system or what
was known as a chain pump, and this would have
potentially been part of a subterranean structure powering kind of
the irrigation system of the hanging gardens.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Yeah, that's the idea, right, and that's cool, that's exciting.
It still technically is kind of certain substantial evidence, and
we can't here's the thing. Unlike the Sphinx, unlike the Pyramids,
unlike other ancient wonders, we cannot go see the Hanging
Gardens today. People have tried their own reproductions or their
own homages to it, but we still don't know whether
(26:18):
it existed.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Well, and yet it still is listed as one of
the wonders of the world.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, one of the interesting seven wonders,
just because the other six we can check out. The
other six are way more confirmed to have existed.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Should we list them out just to just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Let's do it, because this will give all of us
playing along at home a little bit of a sense
of where we're going with this series. There's the Great Pyramid, one,
Hanging Gardens, two, the Temple of Artemis, three, Statue of
Zoos and Olympia. Uh, that's for the mausoleum at Halikarnassis,
the Colossus of Rhodes, and of course the Lighthouse of Alexandria.
(27:09):
Those are the those are the like canonical seven.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And of those, which ones are actually we able to visit.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
There's the only one that's still standing, the Pyramid. Sure, yeah,
the Pyramids are the only one that's still standing. God,
but we know the other ones exist.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
We know for sure the other ones existed. And again,
what's what's fascinating. As we'll see in this series, there
have been multiple attempts to do reproductions of these things
because they're just super cool, man, they're super First off,
humanity has always been sort of a hold my beer
species right and saying, let's build something huge, you know
(27:46):
what I mean, look upon my work, see Mighty in
Despair and so on. But yeah, the Pyramid, the Great Pyramid,
would be the only one currently that we can we
can go see. And I think it's weird that the
Sphinx doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is weird, right, it's a sub wonder, they would say.
There's a lot of debate. Obviously, there are a bunch
more wonders after this, like you know the taj Ma Hall.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Sure, yeah, the Great Wall and your what yeah, not module,
I would even say, but the yeah, so we know
that after Here's why there's debate. After Nebekonezer, Babylon was
still an important city as part of several different empires,
and the rulers of both of these later empires, the
(28:37):
Akamenid and the Solucid Empires, both of their top people
would use the Palace at Babylon as their main hangout,
as their white house. So with all this argument, all
this hullabaloo and discourse about where the hanging gardens actually
(28:57):
were in Babylon and whether they existed, we see, like
you were saying, people are finding vaulted rooms, they're finding
stuff that clearly indicate some sort of irrigation system, but
they're not finding positive proof of the hanging gardens actually existing.
And this is where we get to Christopher Klein actually
(29:19):
existing there.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Stiff Kleine, writing for History, suggests that it's possible that
this search was being conducted in the wrong place, according
to Oxford University doctor Stephanie Daily, in fact, a scholar
in ancient Mesopotamian languages who found evidence in some new
translations of ancient texts belonging to King Censharib. They described
(29:44):
his own mega mega palace, you know, completely bespoke, referred
to in the writings as unrivaled palace as being a
wonder for all people. He also mentioned a technology a
bronze water raising kind of I guess it's a screw.
(30:06):
What it is, in fact, is that's it's described. It's
not you know, what you would think of as a
as a hardware screw, but it is a spiral and
it was invented by Archimedes, who also invented that time
travel device from that Indiana Jones movie that everyone loved.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Right, Okay, a couple of things there we've because I
have to do it, man, We talked about this on stuff.
They don't want you to know. Archimedes probably did invent
some version of this, but it's a matter of branding
because people clearly invented this screw parallel, Yeah, they invented
it before him, parallel thinking as you said, he was
(30:44):
just the most famous guy at the time, so he
got his name attached to it.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I guess I still don't fully understand how the technology works.
I don't know, Max, maybe this is something that you
could help with. Like it is a spiral and the
water is meant to travel upward, right, so how does
that exactly work?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Screw it? Okay, Yeah, it's actually very simple, but because
you think about the way, but it functions in the
same way that a screw would work on grander scale.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, it's it's one of the earliest documented hydraulic machines.
So you're right that moves water. Like you said earlier,
it leverages gravity. So depending on the angle that you
put it on, when you turn the screw through one
mechanism or another, the screw kind of builds a ramp
to move the water up.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Got it. Okay, Yeah, that's pretty neat.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
It's it's it's weird, it's it's I don't know. I
think it's super cool. I know it can sound kind
of like we're maybe easily impressed, but order just a
bunch of dorks, which is also entirely possible.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yes, we're a good company with ridiculous historians, we hope.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yes, they're yeah, agreed on all counts. And we know,
like I love the point bringing up here the idea
that there may have been some kind of hanging garden
somewhere else, relatively nearby, right in the Middle Eastern area
Nineva Mosul something like that. We know aqueduct technology was
(32:16):
very much in play. We've got some boss relief images
from the Royal Palace and nine US showing very very lush,
fertile gardens that were being irrigated through an aqueduct. Yeah,
and we know that in that part of the world,
in that city scape, the topography was less flat, there
(32:39):
was more variation, so it would have made it easier
to elevate water to the gardens versus you know, Babylon,
which has a relatively flat landscape. And maybe then the
confusion over the location of these gardens could be due
to the passage of empires, because the Assyrian forces honkeered
(33:00):
Babylon in six 't eighty nine BCE, and after that takeover,
NINEV got a new name. It was called the New Babylon.
So this can be super confusing to later historians and researchers.
So maybe what we're maybe the hanging gardens did exist,
but instead of being hanging guardens of Babylon, they were
(33:20):
hanging gardens of Nineva. This is crazy because it, like
I was trying to think of a more modern comparison.
Imagine if thousands of years from now we have a
future historian who is totally convinced that the Statue of
Liberty is in Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Yeah, for sure, that'd be interesting.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Gosh, I always think whenever I hear about historical accounts
of the Statue of Liberty, I can't not think about
the planet of the apes. They blew it up. We
were just talking about blowing things up. Yes, whole planets. Yeah,
super into the idea. And I hope that statement ages well.
Oh boy, we know that we know that there is
(34:03):
indication at least that something like the gardens existed. Something
in the real world informed this legend of an ancient wonder.
We just aren't sure on the specifics because of the
great game of telephone. And here's the good news, folks.
As we're recording, there are some people way smarter than us,
(34:24):
some real boffins and eggheads and Indiana Jones types who
are conducting science and archaeology in these areas. So they
may well, discover solid one hundred percent inarguable proof of
the hanging gardens of Babylon, or the hanging guardens of Nineveh,
or the hanging guards of Mosul, or you know, at
(34:46):
this point, just like a garden preferably hanging, preferably hanging.
And also shout out to the early Cure song Total
Banger the Hanging Gardens.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Check it out. It's a real goth fantasia of a tune. Now.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I love that you're pointing out that, Nol and we
also we also just before we wrap for time, we
have to address something that has surely been on everybody's
mind from the very top of this show.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
What is it, Ben, What is it? I want to
know if it's on my mind?
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Oh gosh, I hope it is, no, because when you
finally when you get to play civilization, and I'm so
happy for it is. Yeah, one of the questions you're
going to have is you're going to have this choice
of wonders, right, and it evolves as your civilization does.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
But you can only have one in the world. Wasn't
that a thing you talked about at the top.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
So you pick your wonder and you written and they're
modeled after these things.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
You can build multiple wonders. Other empires will try to
build them too, so you can build the Pyramids or
Stonehenge or Big ben or I think Broadway. There are
a ton of them, but if some Broadway, Yeah, yeah,
there were. They were stretched for ideas square, Yeah, there were.
There were a little stretch for ideas.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Commercial bloat sorry, hot take times square.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yes, commercial bloat is a way to win civilizations. Yes, okay,
not in six, but I think it's seven. They brought
it back in previous ones that.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Called commercial bloat. This is like trade.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's like the there's the culture war. Uh, there's the
economic victory, there's uh domination victory.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
And seven.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Now how they do it?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I was the three ages, and in the first age
there's an economic Golden age, which is like you get
by having by acquiring resources, especially luxury resources and stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Seven.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
By the way, it's really fun and it's getting better.
They just released the first.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Update nice and we'll I'm going to get in immediately
after we wrap this session. I also just found out
for any gamers in the audience, there's a new Monster
Hunter gamey PS five that I just got and I'm
only just now kind of almost through the intro tutorial part.
I love the last Monster Hunter game, but I found
it a little overwhelming at times, and apparently this new
(37:00):
one that.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Pairs that down a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
So gonna get back into that one and then get
the new Civilization game.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And I'm still trying to sleep with a lot of
characters in Balder's Gate three, So wish me luck you guys.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
So Balder's Gate three, man, that was too much for me.
I watched my friend play when he was visiting, and
I was just like, I don't know if this is
for me. It's too small to play on a TV too.
It's like all the text is so small. Oh yeah, yeah,
maybe a better experience on a PC.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, perhaps right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
And the question here is should you build the hanging
gardens in Civilization?
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, It's going to depend upon your empire's mileage and
the approach you take to the game. I would say,
don't necessarily prioritize it. There are better wonders out there.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Hanging gardens is always such an early wonder, and especially
because like if you play on any difficulty above Prince,
which they've renamed in the newest one, but like Prince
is like where everyone starts equal. But the other versions
of the game, especially once you get up like a
mortal or deity, the AI have significant advantages on you,
especially early games. So it's like, if you decide I'm
(38:11):
getting hanging gardens, cool, you're not getting anything else. Socially,
in Civilization six, it's like I want do you want
to hanging gardens? Or do I want a religion?
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Right?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
And in a lot of ways, it's fine if you
can get it, or if someone's not going for it,
then it's great because it'll make your city into a
metropolis very quickly. But there is better wonders.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
I gotta say, as a person who always picks the
science condition for victory, I'm all about going to space,
you know what I mean. That's a classic human Yeah.
I can't wait to hear about your experience there and
all and folk reach for the stars. That's a good
advice for everyone to take home. There we go, There
we go. That's what we call a wrap up. Folks,
Thank you so much for tuning in. There's much more
(38:53):
to get to join us. Later. We're going to explore
some stories about Apple and apples be not in the
way and the beats and a besh and a fab whoa.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Well done, jim lely sweet and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
We're going to uh We're also going to have some
more adventures ahead, some special guests, some cameos. We can't
wait for you to be along. So thank you for
tuning in and also, of course thanks to our super
producer and research associate for today's episode, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
That's right, huge thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Christa Frasciotis and Eve jeffco here in spirit and Ben.
Just a quick thing to say if anybody wanted to
reach out to us or suggesting the episodes, We're still
having gotten the keys back to our official Ridiculous Sister
and social media.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
But you can find this as human people on the
internet if you wish. I'm how now Noel Brown on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
I am calling myself in a burst of creativity at
Ben Bullen wherever you find a place with an at sign.
You can also hit me up directly on the website
Benboland dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
Good you lock that down, man, than being your name
and all yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Name too, yeah, with great affection to the other four
bin bulliins in the world, and yes I do know
them all. I reached out to them and I think
I creeped them out a little big thanks of course,
the rude dude. It's a ridiculous crime. And Noel, thanks
to you man, God you as well.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
You're you're, you're the eighth wonder of the of the world.
Ben in my heart because of the Oh yeah, for sure.
Whatever the next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
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Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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