March 13, 2025 • 38 mins
Spoiler: The Beatles are kind of famous. Yet even worldwide acclaim didn't make them immune to lawsuits. In today's episode, Ben, Noel and Max explore the strange story of Apple Inc and Apple Corps, two hugely influential companies that found themselves embroiled in a multidecade trademark beef.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man,
the myth legend, our super producer, mister Max William.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Goo Goo June. I exist still he is the Walrus. Yeah,
I am the man. I want to hold your hand, bro.
There is none other than.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
There is none other than my my colleague, my compatriot,
my brother from another mother, mister Noel Brown, knowl how
you doing? I'm doing okay, man? How about yourself? Oh well,
I'm still going by Ben Bullen.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I know, yeah, yeah, yeah awkward. If I called you
something else like Steve.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well Interpool hasn't caught me yet, you can.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You can.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
In the meantime, check us out. I'm hanging out with
our palace Jack Miles over on Daily's II.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hopefully they'll return to our show as well in the
near future for some historical flexes. So if you're a
fan of them, please bully them into coming on our show.
M just with no no preface, no nice how you're doing,
just to just try to coerce them into hanging out
with us and speaking of coersion, Oh my gosh, we
(01:41):
teased this earlier. We teased this for a few weeks
while we were on the road as well. We have
a series of episodes coming out about Apples, the History
of Apple, john the History of Apples, the produce, the
story of Johnny Appleseed. And know there's something that you
and I were talking about out as well as with
(02:01):
our buddy Jordan Runtalk that really stood out to you
and I think it's a peak ridiculous history story that
needs to be told.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
It came from the recent series we did on intellectual property, copyright,
trademark and all of that. And it turns out that
one of the biggest trademark battles of our time was
between two apples, the Computer Variety and the Music Variety,
a record label founded in London in January of nineteen
(02:31):
sixty eight by the Beatles John Paul that scamp Ringo
and George.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Don't forget about George, All things must pass as a banger.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
They wanted to replace their previous company, Beatles Limited, and
get more of their finances under their own control of
their catalog, but also kind of branch out into film,
into retail into a development of other artists. You may
well have some records that are on Apple Records that
are not the Beatles.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I think James Taylor.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Released some stuff on Apple Records, John Lennon's Good Buddy,
Harry Nilsen, and of course all things must pass. The
record I mentioned before, the George Harrison double LP, is
also released on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Apple and they called this is one of my favorite
parts about the company, the Beatles. The Fab four called
this company apple core, get it, get it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Hashtag very fire left behind now yeah good And.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
They were like, you said, you know, if we cast
our memories back to early nineteen sixty seven, the Beatles
are a worldwide phenomena. At this point, They've got Yeah,
They've got all these hit records, They're getting songwriting royalties
left and right in a way that the music industry
hasn't really encountered on this level. But on the other side,
(04:01):
they were still haunted by the bad deals they had
made earlier in their collective career.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well, it's also one of those music industry history moments
where it was very hard for bands to be able
to exert this level of control, and only because of
how incredibly successful the Beatles were were they able to
do this like Another example might be Prince choosing not
to renew his record contract with the label and recording
(04:30):
and releasing and consequently owning all of his own master
recordings from that point forward when he severed ties with
that label.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, and at this point we already see the money
becoming a huge part of the conversation. Arguably, you could
say the money becomes another member of the Beatles. They
have multiple accountants, they have a staff of accountants, and
in nineteen sixty seven they go to our pals, the Beatles,
and they say, look, we're going to have to do
(04:59):
a little bit of financial parkour just to get everything
right with the tax man.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So sheltering, I think is the term.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yes, give me shelter. They they are different bands, but
different great reference. They tell they tell the they tell
the bands that they need to shelter two million pounds sterling.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And the best way to do this is to invest
in a business.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Can we Oh?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I was hoping we were going to do some inflation calculation.
All right, we must let's get that boop.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
We got some.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Oh, it was a nice harmony of boops in today's pounds.
I guess it would be euros, right, this would be
fifty million pounds sterling in today's money.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
But we didn't do this the euro.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Calculation, Yeah, because we support Brexit. Kidding, kidding, right, right.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Let's deal with that going bill in EU. They never
they England. England was the one country that didn't sweat.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Right, you're so right, You're so right. My mistake. Still
wondering how Breggs it's going, though, we heard tell.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Check in there are some regrets, but none of those
regrets are coming from Russia, which absolutely loved Brexit and
anything that can break up the EU.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, yeah, hoping for something similar Back here in the States.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
They sure are hoping. Oh my gosh, check out our
show stuff that'll want you to know. Also, Okay, the
big tent asset of this, this massive apple Core enterprise is,
as you mentioned, a recorded label called Apple Records, and
Apple Records is the venue through which some of the
(06:39):
biggest Beatles albums ever get released.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
That's right, I mean their earlier stuff, Rubbert Soul, Revolver,
help you know, all their musical film work and their
early singles like I Want to Hold Your Hand and
things like that I think weren't always released on full
length albums. They were kind of singles back then that
would still have been under the control of Capitol Records
or I think Parlophone I think was the English imprint
(07:03):
of Capital Correct me if I'm wrong, ridiculous historians. But
that was out of their hands, but they could start fresh.
Some of their most important and kind of boundary pushing
work was released by Apple, and that includes Yellow Submarine,
Abbey Road, and let It Be Yes, which.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Are absolute bangers. By the way, for the record, for
the record, whatever, we'll keep you do it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So they come up with this amazing pine Apple Core.
They release this green Apple logo as their first trademark.
By this point it's nineteen sixty nine, and this logo
becomes iconic. People recognize it, and some of the people
who recognize it, well, they say, we also have our
(07:51):
own idea about Apple, and we're mad.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
At you guys.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, I mean, you know, today I think people associate
Apple and the Apple logo or an image of an
Apple with a pretty significantly massive computer company, a technology
company Apple.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Which wasn't around in the sixties. Well, it wasn't around
in the sixties.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It was a startup more or less, you know, by
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, you know, in their garage
in Silicon Valley there in San Francisco area. But today
definitely much more of a household name, especially when associated
with that particular fruit here in the United States and
really in the rest of the world. Maybe there's some
folks in Britain that still think about Apple Records and
(08:34):
Apple Core, but probably not to the degree that Apple Computers,
you know, kind of took over the mantle for that brand.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And get this, I love this point. Get this, folks,
if you are the average person looking up Apple Core,
you're probably looking it up on your iPhone.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, oh a million percent. I mean, that's the level
of ubiquity that Apple Computer is established. Just an absolute
cultural zeitgeist owner, you know, from the moment the ip
as far back as the iPod, you know, I mean,
coining terms, absolutely revolutionizing the handheld computing device market. You know,
before it was like BlackBerry was kind of the only
(09:13):
game in town, and then the iPhone came in and
just blew the lid off of.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
All of it.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Today they are a three trillion dollar company that was
as I said, in those house in days salad days,
I guess of the origination of the company, and Steve
and Steve were working in their garage in nineteen seventy six.
But nineteen seventy four, I believe, is when Let It
Be came out. So at this point Apple Records and
(09:37):
Apple Core still very much the only game in town.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah yeah, and Apple Computer Incorporated, as you said, it gets
founded in nineteen seventy six, so this is several years
after this, Like this is like seven years after the
green Apple logo of nineteen sixty nine, and it's pretty
much a decade after the exist of Apple Core is
(10:01):
created by the Beatles.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
That logo, by the way, was inspired by a super
famous painting by the surrealist Belgian artist Renee mcgreet. Paul
McCartney had seen this in a gallery show in London
and got the inspiration for designing that logo, you know
the one. It's like the dude's head that's got the
apple kind of floating in space.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really good painting. It's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Macgret's fantastic and unbeknownst to our British musicians here double
Steves as we're going to call them. When they started
their business, they created, as you said, the concept of
Apple in Steve Jobs's garage, and their first logo for
(10:45):
Apple the Computer Company was, you know, sort of a
pretty simple sketch of Isaac Newton from earlier sitting under
an apple tree, and then later they replaced it with
what we acknowledge as the old school logo, the nineteen
seventy seven rainbow striped apple. Some cheeky monkey took a
bite out of.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
It, a little devil. Where do you go? Let me
add him? Where is he? Right?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So they all love puns, right, This is a fun
fact you found courtesy of our friends over at trade Markia.
Shout out to I'm RuSHA chatti one hundred percent Apple core.
As we mentioned, the pun being core of the apple.
But when it comes to Apple computers and their logo,
that bite that's taken out, you know, be.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It e or is it b yt?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Like a a unit of computer data and even Apple
core though right this a core is a part of
a processor, of a computer process. Oh nice, And I'm
not sure if that terminology was used back in those
early days, but today, if you have a really powerful processor,
it's referred to as having multiple cores, which are like
the processing you know, portions of those circuits.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I would say I would guess that core was used
back in those days because it's kind of like similar
to how you would scrib like a power planner or book.
That's also sure a million Yes, I'm guessing that that
was would have been around the whole time.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
That's exactly right, it's where the power lies. Sounds like
it's time for max with the facts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
What is that seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
It's just for you right now, there it was. It
feels so good to be back, it really does.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
While we're walking out the puns, let's also point out
some more wordplay. Corp co r p s of course
pronounced core also denotes a large military movement. Shout out
to Camel cor Yeah, corporation.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So of course. So we're just saying it's well written.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It is absolutely and in a press conference that the
Beatles held in nineteen sixty eight to announce the founding
of this organization, John Lennon described Apple Core as being
a company we're setting up involving records, is what he
would have said. Films and electronics m So there's definitely
already some overlap in what apple Core is setting out
(13:19):
to do. We're gonna get into whether or not they
actually did it or not, and what the Steves are
coming up with that technology side, you know, for them,
electronics and technology.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean, they're very much hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, And unfortunately, as we as we know and as
history will later prove, the Beatles, despite being a tremendously
fantastic musical force together, they had a lot of clashes
of personality and fame brought with it some complications, some arguments,
some loggerheads, some I think people give you'll go oh
(13:58):
no a hard time, but right right, they had some
they had some internal issues and they're as a result
of this, the tensions in the group, you know, it
didn't help the mission of apple Core.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
They should have spent more time with the Maharishiogi to
kind of mellow out and stop being so tense at
each other, y'all.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, maybe right.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
There's also the fact, and we say this with great affection,
we're obviously all of us are big Beatles fans. Here,
there's also the fact that these guys are musicians, They're
not execs.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
They're not C suite types.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
They don't they haven't gone to you know, Harvard Business
School or whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
They don't know how to run a company like this.
But they do no music.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
And like I said, some really great artists were released
under the Apple Records Moniker. But they also were attempting
to kind of forge into that electronics or kind of
technology sector with a dude they knew who was one
of their engineers.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
At Apple Studios, a.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Guy by the name of Magic Alex Martis, great name, Yeah,
I mean the magic is in quotes. But he had
gone to great lengths renovating the Beatles Studios, making it
up to the current standards of recording technology, which was
a very expensive job, costing in the neighborhood of one
(15:27):
point five million pounds. But that studio went under as well.
And as we will find out, Martis also had some
other kind of hucksterry tricks up his sleeve.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, it turns out that you get in a tricky
situation when you hire people based on your friendship versus
you know, their proven skills, right, it's a big trustful
They start something called the Apple Boutique Shop. This does
not work well. It closes within just a year of launching.
(16:02):
And they also had, like you said, well, they had
Apple Films, which never really got off the ground floor.
Apple Electronics unfortunately had to shut down because Martis practiced
a different sort of magic and being very diplomatic.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
There, yeah, the magic of bullshit.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Right, Yes, this is where we uh, this is where
we thanked Tim Kaufman over at far Out magazine dot
co dot UK, who really cool.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I just started following them on all the platforms and
it's just a really great publication. But they have an
article called Let's see Magic. Alex Martis the engineer who
promised the Beatles the world. And this guy had some
kind of he fancied himself a bit of an inventor
and had, you know, all these ideas that never really
made it past the prototype stage. And then includes a
(16:51):
guitar that he built for John Lennon that, when looked
at from a certain angle, as described by this far article,
resembles something in the way of a children's And you know,
he had other little, you know, pie in the sky
invention ideas, none of which ever made it to production.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Right, Like he he impressed John Lennon with something you
called the Nothing Box which was a little plastic box
with these lights that would randomly blink. And then he
told Candles he could build a seventy two track tape machine.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's really weird, which if you're a.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Music nerd, you know that like the Beatles, early stuff
was done on four track tape and that it had
to innovate in tons of ways by like bounce it's
called bouncing, or he records to multiple things and squish
it down on one track and then record those again
to another. It's like moving things around him and doubling
them up to make room for more empty tracks. But
then you had eight track and then twenty four track.
(17:46):
Is what the kind of standard of the day is
because there's a finite amount of space on two inch
magnetic tape, and so promising something like seventy two tracks,
maybe it's possible, but you would also be inherently cutting
down on the modelity of each individual track because of
the fact there's only so much data that can be
written to a piece of magnetic tape like that. So
(18:07):
what he was promising wasn't possible even by today's standards.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Right, Yeah, it was a little bit of a pie
in the sky. Let me sell you a bridge situation.
We know that eventually he ended up losing Apple the
Beatles company something like three hundred thousand pounds sterling. In
recent numbers that would be that would be over yeah,
that'd be over six point five million pounds. It was
(18:33):
not a good look. Dude, magic martist. He's so interesting.
He later gets into like selling bulletproof vehicles to dictators.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It's one recent yeah, after he parts ways with the
Beatles because they kick him to the carb when they
finally realized that he's a con artist. So in nineteen
seventy eight, Apple Core, it was just the holding company
for the Beatles and also what they've got their record
label apped up into, filed a lawsuit against This is
the inciting incident of our story against the then up
(19:07):
and coming Apple Computers for wait for it, trademark infringement.
The trademarking question being that image of an apple, though
very stylistically different, like you know, the apple that the
Beatles use is photo realistic, you know, like a green apple,
and the one that Apple used was more stylized, kind
(19:28):
of a two dimensional, you know, sort of shape based design.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
With a cheeky little bite. Where do you go So
this is this.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Is a serious, high stakes legal disagreement. There is so
much money on the line, not even counting celebrity, and
the fact that on one side of this argument we
have some of the most powerful musicians in the world.
The thing is they weren't operating in the same businesses,
not really.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Well, although apple Core did set out to have a
technology wing, as we know, Magic Martis screwed that all
the heck, and so that wasn't really a thing anymore.
None of that business was viable. They were not operating
in that space. The only remaining viable part of that
business was the music being released on Apple Records. So
(20:20):
that is kind of becomes the rub here, right, because
the question then becomes what is technology? You know, what
is music technology? And where does the crossover between these
two business exist?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And that's the question that gets litigated for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, it goes all the way up to nineteen
eighty one, and they eventually, these two giants, right because
Apple Computers is growing year over year at this point,
they eventually settle and they say, look, let's demarcate everybody's
respective turf. You are Apple Core, you do Apple Records.
(21:00):
We promise you, guys, we super duper pinky swear that
we are not going to enter into the music business.
So long as you guys promise us super duper pinky
style that you are not going to enter into the computers, like,
don't try to build computers. We won't make a record label.
Good game, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
You know, as long as you're not putting stuff out
into the music space, then we are not going to
put stuff out into the technology space. Never the twain
shall meet. At this point, it seems relatively cut and dry.
You know, we don't make records, you don't make computers.
But the problem is that within the idea of making computers,
(21:43):
what we know is where the real money is is
in the software. And as technology improves, more things become
possible within the operating system and the software of an
Apple Macintosh computer, and that eventually does start to dip
its toes into the music space, even before things like
iTunes in the iPod.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
What happens first, that's right, that's right. I love this.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Can we get a sound cue? Can we introduce you
to the Musical Instrument Digital Interface aka street name the MIDI.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
MIDI is so fascinating because it was a it's a
computer standard, or really just a digit electronic standard. It's
a particular type of jack connection that has a certain
number of pins that can pass what's called CC information
or control change information through from a computer like a
(22:39):
Apple Macintosh, or a sequencer, which might be a standalone
device that can send information to it through a standardized
connection into hardware synthesizers of the time.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And you can.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Literally program those synthesizers to do things from a remote place,
you know, from a remote piece of equipment, and you
can have multiple of them connected. And the thing I
think is so neat about MIDI is that to this
day it hasn't changed. Like you still buy interfaces, recording
interfaces or mini controllers what they call them. They literally
call them that that have the same exact connection that
(23:12):
can connect up to a synthesizer that came out in
the eighties.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, well said, and this is you know, instantly, I
think a lot of us playing along at home felt
that felt that pool of nostalgia MIDI stuff is just
so cool. I love hearing it. It's fun, you know.
I also like a lot of hip hop that leverages MIDI.
Just to be honest, it's a banger, But you're right,
You're absolutely right. Now, the overlap there, the implacable pace
(23:39):
of technological innovation, it led into again some overstepping of turf,
at least in the opinion of the Beatles Apple Core.
So they come back post MIDI and as this technology
is spreading throughout the world and throughout Apple Computers, and
the Beatles crew says, look, the sound capabilities of the Macintosh,
(24:04):
just the fact that the noises it can make, they
are a breach of our earlier agreement. We can't believe you, guys,
Pinky promised and then did us this way, so fast forward,
it's this is nineteen ninety one at this point, and Noel,
as you pointed out, the case goes all the way
to the High Court in London and they're like.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
The supreme court of that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Correct, well yeah, yeah, yeah, And they're they're grappling with
this question that we that we sort of played with
just a few seconds ago. They have to ask if
this really is a violation of that nineteen eighty one settlement.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
One hundred percent because of the fact that now Apple
Computers was doing stuff in their operating system, in their
software that made these computers capable of interfacing with musical
devices musical equipm. Technically they were in violation of I
don't know, some aspect of that agreement. It's really weird
(25:06):
and convoluted because they certainly weren't putting out music and
selling music products. So it's really a tough thing, and
I understand why it made it so far in the
court systems. Yeah, yeah, because it really it really comes
down to some I hate to say it, but a
little bit of hair splitting and a little bit of
(25:27):
philosophy and perspective. Ultimately, the court says, all right, Apple
computers are not purposely out to drink your proverbial milkshake.
The primary function of the Macintosh is to process data. Now,
(25:49):
can people use that to make music, sure, but they
can also use it however they wish as the end user.
Apple is not making people create any kind of music,
and they're not even really marketing it in that way,
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I Mean.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's just the thing about technology that's so interesting is
it is inevitably going to evolve to do things that
other things have held the market on, you know what
I mean, Like even with like AI, now so much
of the debate around that technology. This is not that different.
It's just a different time. Where like when synthesizers first
came out, people were afraid they were going to take
(26:26):
the jobs of musicians, you know, because it was like
a robo orchestra.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That didn't end up being the case.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
But a similar thing the debate is happening around AI
about the jobs that it could displace. But when you
start to kind of like try to nail down what
is a computer capable of what does it do? That
question becomes kind of moot because it can do all
kinds of things. It can do whatever you program it
to do. It's not inherently one thing. It can be
many things to many people and professions. And you know
(26:54):
sectors right right.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
It's sort of like let's say you sell Swiss army knives,
unctional tools, a leatherman for instance, right, and then somebody
else comes to you and says, hey, we agreed that.
A scissors company comes to you and says we agreed
that we're the ones in charge of scissors, and then
you have to say, well, people can cut things with
(27:18):
a knife, you know what I mean, Like, how is that?
How is that on? Like how is that my responsibility.
You know this, This does seem like a.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Stretch, well exactly, and that's why you can't copyright or
trademark technology as ancient and you know basic as a
knife or a screw.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Right, it is a tool.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You can have different types of ones, and maybe you
have like a multipurpose device like a Swiss army knife,
and you're trademarking the look of it and the design
of it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
But no one can say I own the knife, you know,
or I own the nail. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You can say you own a specific production method or
manufacturing approach to a kind of knife, but you can't
be like, I'm the King of knives, which would be
funny but also pretty creepy if you meet someone who
calls themselves the king of knives.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
We suggest that you know, there's a King of knives
somewhere in Muskogee, Wisconsin or something.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
He's got TV commercials.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
I'm them the knife king, you know, I do like
come to my knife palace.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yes, yes, I love a sharp customer.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Oh geez, oh yeah no, so okay, we do know
that Apple computers still had a bit of a cheeky
sense of humor. Here they're nineteen ninety one operating software
has a sound file audit called We'll spell it for
you first, s O s U M I.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
How would you pronounce that? So Sumi.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
It's like a tiny orange right now, that's just satsuma.
Wait a minute, is this a cheeky little joke? Yeah,
lawyer jokes.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Assume me just do it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And they could get away with it if they're doing
hair splitting legal eese, because they can say, oh, it's
just an inspiring name, and we double check to make
sure you don't own the way that's spelled. Why are
you guys mad? So it's it's a it's a prank war,
you know, and this is just like, it's a great story.
(29:24):
But we do know that they can't leave it as is, right,
so they have to figure out a sort of second covenant,
a second pinky swear settlement.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, and this agreement, while acknowledging the changing dynamics of
a computers were capable of, it did kind of broaden
the language a little bit, and it said that Apple
computers could use that logo for computers, data processing, telecommunications,
but excluded music products, which is super weird because again,
it can be a music product given someone writing code
(29:56):
that would allow it to do that, or creating some
sort of peripheral that it would allow to do that,
some sort of device that could be connected to it.
This was never gonna last.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, this is at best a band aid and it
feels like everybody had to know that going in so
while they're trying to make friends and calm the waters,
as it were, Apple computers. According to reports, they pay
off Apple Core. They give them about twenty six point
five million US dollars and then they say to your point, no, look,
(30:29):
we're not going to sell quote physical music materials. However,
ssume me is still a system alert sound on this
day on.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Max Yeah, carried in there.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's not used, but I think it's like a as
they update the system software over time, some of the
old things stick around, almost like as like a little
nod to their past. And I think if you look
in that folder where all the systems sound effects are,
you'll still find sasumi.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah. And this is the work of a employee from
Apple called Jim Reeks, called that because it's his name.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He created the sound alerts on Apple System seven and
he originally wanted to uh. He originally wanted to name
that alert let it beep.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
It's good. That's good, So assume he's better.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Though, it's so much more cheeky and like underhanded, you know,
let it Beep is almost showing your hand too much.
And he realized that, knowing that it probably wouldn't pass
legal muster.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, and so he went with Sosumi. And then he
did exactly what we were describing earlier. He's like, oh, no,
it's just a name that sounds kind of Japanese. It
has nothing to do with music. You guys are being weird, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Oh it's so funny, yes, sir, oh man, that's so
fun So we've been hinting at all the while, like
like Apple, you know, the record company, the Beatles organization.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Clearly very sensitive about this.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
This idea of Apple computers, you know, being in the
music business, and it seems like for the most part,
they arrived at an agreement that was more along the
lines of, you guys can't do record label stuff, right,
that's our thing. You know, we're gonna let the MIDI
stuff slide, you know whatever. We understand the changing landscape
of technology and all that, but you guys can't.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Distribute and put out recorded music.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
When did that change, y'all? I think we can, I
think we can conjecture.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Also, of course you can't make an Apple clarinet or whatever.
That would be a bridge too far. That's a CD
called music product. But as you said, the seescape changes
the tide shift once again. It's two thousand and three.
Apple Computer goes to the world at large and says, hey,
we have this idea for a thing called iTunes. Now
you can go to you macadherens. You can go to
(32:53):
the iTunes music store. You can buy individual songs or tracks,
and you can copy it on to your iPod. It's
the new walkman. You can take it with you wherever
you want to go.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
This isn't just a clever idea, Ben, This changes everything
every I mean, right now where we sit in twenty
twenty five, the debate about like how much artists are
making has nothing to do with record sales anymore, has
to do with streams. Everybody you know knows that I'm
stating the obvious, But like Apple were the first ones
to have the clout to kind of push this stuff
(33:28):
out in the world, and then they released a piece
of hardware in the iPod that you also had to
have to play in this ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, they built the sandbox, right, so you have to
if you're a musician, you have to play the game
with Apple and iTunes. Apple Core is still around in
two thousand and three, and they are super not happy
about this. They sue Apple Computer again.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Understandably at this point, man, I'm kind of in the
Apple records or apple Core camp. I mean, this is
clearly Apple Computers taking a big swing. Somebody had to
know in their legal department they were testing this also
knowing that at this point Apple Core is just not
as powerful an entity as they are, they can afford
(34:15):
to fight this in court, and they do big time.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah, for years.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's not until two thousand and seven that the respective
apples reach a confidential settlement. We don't know exactly what
they came to terms on, but if you read the
scuttle butt, you'll see strong hints that Apple the computer company,
yet again paid apple Core, the record company. They said,
(34:45):
let us just buy the trademark.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
They cut the legs out from apple Core entirely though, Man,
you think about that like that. Now Apple Core has
to license the use of that name and that trademark
back from Apple record. It's not to say they didn't,
of course, get a gajillion dollars, but if I'm not mistaken,
the first example of this out in the world was
Beatles Rock Band, which was a video game where you
(35:11):
could play Beatles songs for the first time and sing
and all that stuff. Guitar hero but with you could
also play bass and drums. You guys know what this is.
And it appeared in the documentation for that game Beatles,
you know, Apple Core with under exclusive license from Apple
Computers more or less.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And I might not be getting that quite right, but
it's along those lines.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, And this is this is where we go
to at Liss Records. There's a great article you found
from an author calling themselves Patty, and this breaks down
the battle of the Apples. And they put it this way.
They say, it's not merely a legal saga. It is
quote a symphony that echoes the evolution of technology and
(35:54):
the music industry, which I think is a beautiful piece
of writing.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Oh, absolutely very well put. And can I also say
that I just think this is another really good quote
from the Atlas records piece the question and one we've
been asking that's post very eloquently here. The question of
where one company's territory ends and another's begins is a
perpetual challenge in industries marked by rapid innovation. The Beatles
(36:18):
and related acts music finally made its way to digital
music stores, including iTunes in twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, and this is so here's what's amazing. Here's why
I love this story so much. It is a story
that is only going to grow more important in precedent
as time goes on, as technology continues to evolve.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
One hundred percent, the Beatles' music is as important and
iconic today as it ever has been, if not more so.
I mean, so many artists came from influenced by the Beatles,
you know, music, recording technology, innovations, recording production techniques. I
mean so much of that stuff has the Beatles to
thank for it, and of course including their incredible producer
(37:02):
and really like the fifth Beatle, George Martin.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So it's important in this case. Really.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
A trademarquia dot com article points out it highlights the
importance of trademarks. There are values as intellectual property and
the necessity of protecting them.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
And with this speaking of thanking people, thank you, fellow
Ridiculous Historians for joining us for today's episode. Thanks also
to our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Yeah, thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme and
Christopher Hasiotis and eaves Jeff Coates here in spirit.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Thanks to the rude dudes over a Ridiculous Crib. If
you dig this show, you'll love theirs and Noel, thank
you as always, and thanks for being our research associated
on this woman.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
It was super a lot of fun, and there'll be
will be more. I love doing stuff in the music space,
and I think we're going to see more of that
stuff coming from me in the future. But thanks for
taking this journey together, Ben, and also of course Max.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man,
the myth legend, our super producer, mister Max William.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Goo Goo June. I exist still he is the Walrus. Yeah,
I am the man. I want to hold your hand, bro.
There is none other than.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
There is none other than my my colleague, my compatriot,
my brother from another mother, mister Noel Brown, knowl how
you doing? I'm doing okay, man? How about yourself? Oh well,
I'm still going by Ben Bullen.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I know, yeah, yeah, yeah awkward. If I called you
something else like Steve.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well Interpool hasn't caught me yet, you can.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You can.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
In the meantime, check us out. I'm hanging out with
our palace Jack Miles over on Daily's II.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Hopefully they'll return to our show as well in the
near future for some historical flexes. So if you're a
fan of them, please bully them into coming on our show.
M just with no no preface, no nice how you're doing,
just to just try to coerce them into hanging out
with us and speaking of coersion, Oh my gosh, we
(01:41):
teased this earlier. We teased this for a few weeks
while we were on the road as well. We have
a series of episodes coming out about Apples, the History
of Apple, john the History of Apples, the produce, the
story of Johnny Appleseed. And know there's something that you
and I were talking about out as well as with
(02:01):
our buddy Jordan Runtalk that really stood out to you
and I think it's a peak ridiculous history story that
needs to be told.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Well.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
It came from the recent series we did on intellectual property, copyright,
trademark and all of that. And it turns out that
one of the biggest trademark battles of our time was
between two apples, the Computer Variety and the Music Variety,
a record label founded in London in January of nineteen
(02:31):
sixty eight by the Beatles John Paul that scamp Ringo
and George.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Don't forget about George, All things must pass as a banger.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
They wanted to replace their previous company, Beatles Limited, and
get more of their finances under their own control of
their catalog, but also kind of branch out into film,
into retail into a development of other artists. You may
well have some records that are on Apple Records that
are not the Beatles.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I think James Taylor.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Released some stuff on Apple Records, John Lennon's Good Buddy,
Harry Nilsen, and of course all things must pass. The
record I mentioned before, the George Harrison double LP, is
also released on.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Apple and they called this is one of my favorite
parts about the company, the Beatles. The Fab four called
this company apple core, get it, get it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Hashtag very fire left behind now yeah good And.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
They were like, you said, you know, if we cast
our memories back to early nineteen sixty seven, the Beatles
are a worldwide phenomena. At this point, They've got Yeah,
They've got all these hit records, They're getting songwriting royalties
left and right in a way that the music industry
hasn't really encountered on this level. But on the other side,
(04:01):
they were still haunted by the bad deals they had
made earlier in their collective career.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well, it's also one of those music industry history moments
where it was very hard for bands to be able
to exert this level of control, and only because of
how incredibly successful the Beatles were were they able to
do this like Another example might be Prince choosing not
to renew his record contract with the label and recording
(04:30):
and releasing and consequently owning all of his own master
recordings from that point forward when he severed ties with
that label.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, and at this point we already see the money
becoming a huge part of the conversation. Arguably, you could
say the money becomes another member of the Beatles. They
have multiple accountants, they have a staff of accountants, and
in nineteen sixty seven they go to our pals, the Beatles,
and they say, look, we're going to have to do
(04:59):
a little bit of financial parkour just to get everything
right with the tax man.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So sheltering, I think is the term.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yes, give me shelter. They they are different bands, but
different great reference. They tell they tell the they tell
the bands that they need to shelter two million pounds sterling.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And the best way to do this is to invest
in a business.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Can we Oh?
Speaker 3 (05:25):
I was hoping we were going to do some inflation calculation.
All right, we must let's get that boop.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
We got some.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Oh, it was a nice harmony of boops in today's pounds.
I guess it would be euros, right, this would be
fifty million pounds sterling in today's money.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
But we didn't do this the euro.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Calculation, Yeah, because we support Brexit. Kidding, kidding, right, right.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Let's deal with that going bill in EU. They never
they England. England was the one country that didn't sweat.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Right, you're so right, You're so right. My mistake. Still
wondering how Breggs it's going, though, we heard tell.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Check in there are some regrets, but none of those
regrets are coming from Russia, which absolutely loved Brexit and
anything that can break up the EU.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, yeah, hoping for something similar Back here in the States.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
They sure are hoping. Oh my gosh, check out our
show stuff that'll want you to know. Also, Okay, the
big tent asset of this, this massive apple Core enterprise is,
as you mentioned, a recorded label called Apple Records, and
Apple Records is the venue through which some of the
(06:39):
biggest Beatles albums ever get released.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
That's right, I mean their earlier stuff, Rubbert Soul, Revolver,
help you know, all their musical film work and their
early singles like I Want to Hold Your Hand and
things like that I think weren't always released on full
length albums. They were kind of singles back then that
would still have been under the control of Capitol Records
or I think Parlophone I think was the English imprint
(07:03):
of Capital Correct me if I'm wrong, ridiculous historians. But
that was out of their hands, but they could start fresh.
Some of their most important and kind of boundary pushing
work was released by Apple, and that includes Yellow Submarine,
Abbey Road, and let It Be Yes, which.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Are absolute bangers. By the way, for the record, for
the record, whatever, we'll keep you do it.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So they come up with this amazing pine Apple Core.
They release this green Apple logo as their first trademark.
By this point it's nineteen sixty nine, and this logo
becomes iconic. People recognize it, and some of the people
who recognize it, well, they say, we also have our
(07:51):
own idea about Apple, and we're mad.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
At you guys.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, I mean, you know, today I think people associate
Apple and the Apple logo or an image of an
Apple with a pretty significantly massive computer company, a technology
company Apple.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Which wasn't around in the sixties. Well, it wasn't around
in the sixties.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It was a startup more or less, you know, by
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, you know, in their garage
in Silicon Valley there in San Francisco area. But today
definitely much more of a household name, especially when associated
with that particular fruit here in the United States and
really in the rest of the world. Maybe there's some
folks in Britain that still think about Apple Records and
(08:34):
Apple Core, but probably not to the degree that Apple Computers,
you know, kind of took over the mantle for that brand.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And get this, I love this point. Get this, folks,
if you are the average person looking up Apple Core,
you're probably looking it up on your iPhone.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, oh a million percent. I mean, that's the level
of ubiquity that Apple Computer is established. Just an absolute
cultural zeitgeist owner, you know, from the moment the ip
as far back as the iPod, you know, I mean,
coining terms, absolutely revolutionizing the handheld computing device market. You know,
before it was like BlackBerry was kind of the only
(09:13):
game in town, and then the iPhone came in and
just blew the lid off of.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
All of it.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Today they are a three trillion dollar company that was
as I said, in those house in days salad days,
I guess of the origination of the company, and Steve
and Steve were working in their garage in nineteen seventy six.
But nineteen seventy four, I believe, is when Let It
Be came out. So at this point Apple Records and
(09:37):
Apple Core still very much the only game in town.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah yeah, and Apple Computer Incorporated, as you said, it gets
founded in nineteen seventy six, so this is several years
after this, Like this is like seven years after the
green Apple logo of nineteen sixty nine, and it's pretty
much a decade after the exist of Apple Core is
(10:01):
created by the Beatles.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
That logo, by the way, was inspired by a super
famous painting by the surrealist Belgian artist Renee mcgreet. Paul
McCartney had seen this in a gallery show in London
and got the inspiration for designing that logo, you know
the one. It's like the dude's head that's got the
apple kind of floating in space.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really good painting. It's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Macgret's fantastic and unbeknownst to our British musicians here double
Steves as we're going to call them. When they started
their business, they created, as you said, the concept of
Apple in Steve Jobs's garage, and their first logo for
(10:45):
Apple the Computer Company was, you know, sort of a
pretty simple sketch of Isaac Newton from earlier sitting under
an apple tree, and then later they replaced it with
what we acknowledge as the old school logo, the nineteen
seventy seven rainbow striped apple. Some cheeky monkey took a
bite out of.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
It, a little devil. Where do you go? Let me
add him? Where is he? Right?
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So they all love puns, right, This is a fun
fact you found courtesy of our friends over at trade Markia.
Shout out to I'm RuSHA chatti one hundred percent Apple core.
As we mentioned, the pun being core of the apple.
But when it comes to Apple computers and their logo,
that bite that's taken out, you know, be.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It e or is it b yt?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Like a a unit of computer data and even Apple
core though right this a core is a part of
a processor, of a computer process. Oh nice, And I'm
not sure if that terminology was used back in those
early days, but today, if you have a really powerful processor,
it's referred to as having multiple cores, which are like
the processing you know, portions of those circuits.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I would say I would guess that core was used
back in those days because it's kind of like similar
to how you would scrib like a power planner or book.
That's also sure a million Yes, I'm guessing that that
was would have been around the whole time.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
That's exactly right, it's where the power lies. Sounds like
it's time for max with the facts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
What is that seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
It's just for you right now, there it was. It
feels so good to be back, it really does.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
While we're walking out the puns, let's also point out
some more wordplay. Corp co r p s of course
pronounced core also denotes a large military movement. Shout out
to Camel cor Yeah, corporation.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So of course. So we're just saying it's well written.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It is absolutely and in a press conference that the
Beatles held in nineteen sixty eight to announce the founding
of this organization, John Lennon described Apple Core as being
a company we're setting up involving records, is what he
would have said. Films and electronics m So there's definitely
already some overlap in what apple Core is setting out
(13:19):
to do. We're gonna get into whether or not they
actually did it or not, and what the Steves are
coming up with that technology side, you know, for them,
electronics and technology.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I mean, they're very much hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, And unfortunately, as we as we know and as
history will later prove, the Beatles, despite being a tremendously
fantastic musical force together, they had a lot of clashes
of personality and fame brought with it some complications, some arguments,
some loggerheads, some I think people give you'll go oh
(13:58):
no a hard time, but right right, they had some
they had some internal issues and they're as a result
of this, the tensions in the group, you know, it
didn't help the mission of apple Core.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
They should have spent more time with the Maharishiogi to
kind of mellow out and stop being so tense at
each other, y'all.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, maybe right.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
There's also the fact, and we say this with great affection,
we're obviously all of us are big Beatles fans. Here,
there's also the fact that these guys are musicians, They're
not execs.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
They're not C suite types.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
They don't they haven't gone to you know, Harvard Business
School or whatever.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
They don't know how to run a company like this.
But they do no music.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
And like I said, some really great artists were released
under the Apple Records Moniker. But they also were attempting
to kind of forge into that electronics or kind of
technology sector with a dude they knew who was one
of their engineers.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
At Apple Studios, a.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Guy by the name of Magic Alex Martis, great name, Yeah,
I mean the magic is in quotes. But he had
gone to great lengths renovating the Beatles Studios, making it
up to the current standards of recording technology, which was
a very expensive job, costing in the neighborhood of one
(15:27):
point five million pounds. But that studio went under as well.
And as we will find out, Martis also had some
other kind of hucksterry tricks up his sleeve.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, it turns out that you get in a tricky
situation when you hire people based on your friendship versus
you know, their proven skills, right, it's a big trustful
They start something called the Apple Boutique Shop. This does
not work well. It closes within just a year of launching.
(16:02):
And they also had, like you said, well, they had
Apple Films, which never really got off the ground floor.
Apple Electronics unfortunately had to shut down because Martis practiced
a different sort of magic and being very diplomatic.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
There, yeah, the magic of bullshit.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Right, Yes, this is where we uh, this is where
we thanked Tim Kaufman over at far Out magazine dot
co dot UK, who really cool.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I just started following them on all the platforms and
it's just a really great publication. But they have an
article called Let's see Magic. Alex Martis the engineer who
promised the Beatles the world. And this guy had some
kind of he fancied himself a bit of an inventor
and had, you know, all these ideas that never really
made it past the prototype stage. And then includes a
(16:51):
guitar that he built for John Lennon that, when looked
at from a certain angle, as described by this far article,
resembles something in the way of a children's And you know,
he had other little, you know, pie in the sky
invention ideas, none of which ever made it to production.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Right, Like he he impressed John Lennon with something you
called the Nothing Box which was a little plastic box
with these lights that would randomly blink. And then he
told Candles he could build a seventy two track tape machine.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's really weird, which if you're a.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Music nerd, you know that like the Beatles, early stuff
was done on four track tape and that it had
to innovate in tons of ways by like bounce it's
called bouncing, or he records to multiple things and squish
it down on one track and then record those again
to another. It's like moving things around him and doubling
them up to make room for more empty tracks. But
then you had eight track and then twenty four track.
(17:46):
Is what the kind of standard of the day is
because there's a finite amount of space on two inch
magnetic tape, and so promising something like seventy two tracks,
maybe it's possible, but you would also be inherently cutting
down on the modelity of each individual track because of
the fact there's only so much data that can be
written to a piece of magnetic tape like that. So
(18:07):
what he was promising wasn't possible even by today's standards.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Right, Yeah, it was a little bit of a pie
in the sky. Let me sell you a bridge situation.
We know that eventually he ended up losing Apple the
Beatles company something like three hundred thousand pounds sterling. In
recent numbers that would be that would be over yeah,
that'd be over six point five million pounds. It was
(18:33):
not a good look. Dude, magic martist. He's so interesting.
He later gets into like selling bulletproof vehicles to dictators.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
It's one recent yeah, after he parts ways with the
Beatles because they kick him to the carb when they
finally realized that he's a con artist. So in nineteen
seventy eight, Apple Core, it was just the holding company
for the Beatles and also what they've got their record
label apped up into, filed a lawsuit against This is
the inciting incident of our story against the then up
(19:07):
and coming Apple Computers for wait for it, trademark infringement.
The trademarking question being that image of an apple, though
very stylistically different, like you know, the apple that the
Beatles use is photo realistic, you know, like a green apple,
and the one that Apple used was more stylized, kind
(19:28):
of a two dimensional, you know, sort of shape based design.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
With a cheeky little bite. Where do you go So
this is this.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Is a serious, high stakes legal disagreement. There is so
much money on the line, not even counting celebrity, and
the fact that on one side of this argument we
have some of the most powerful musicians in the world.
The thing is they weren't operating in the same businesses,
not really.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Well, although apple Core did set out to have a
technology wing, as we know, Magic Martis screwed that all
the heck, and so that wasn't really a thing anymore.
None of that business was viable. They were not operating
in that space. The only remaining viable part of that
business was the music being released on Apple Records. So
(20:20):
that is kind of becomes the rub here, right, because
the question then becomes what is technology? You know, what
is music technology? And where does the crossover between these
two business exist?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And that's the question that gets litigated for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, it goes all the way up to nineteen
eighty one, and they eventually, these two giants, right because
Apple Computers is growing year over year at this point,
they eventually settle and they say, look, let's demarcate everybody's
respective turf. You are Apple Core, you do Apple Records.
(21:00):
We promise you, guys, we super duper pinky swear that
we are not going to enter into the music business.
So long as you guys promise us super duper pinky
style that you are not going to enter into the computers, like,
don't try to build computers. We won't make a record label.
Good game, exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
You know, as long as you're not putting stuff out
into the music space, then we are not going to
put stuff out into the technology space. Never the twain
shall meet. At this point, it seems relatively cut and dry.
You know, we don't make records, you don't make computers.
But the problem is that within the idea of making computers,
(21:43):
what we know is where the real money is is
in the software. And as technology improves, more things become
possible within the operating system and the software of an
Apple Macintosh computer, and that eventually does start to dip
its toes into the music space, even before things like
iTunes in the iPod.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
What happens first, that's right, that's right. I love this.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Can we get a sound cue? Can we introduce you
to the Musical Instrument Digital Interface aka street name the MIDI.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
MIDI is so fascinating because it was a it's a
computer standard, or really just a digit electronic standard. It's
a particular type of jack connection that has a certain
number of pins that can pass what's called CC information
or control change information through from a computer like a
(22:39):
Apple Macintosh, or a sequencer, which might be a standalone
device that can send information to it through a standardized
connection into hardware synthesizers of the time.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
And you can.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Literally program those synthesizers to do things from a remote place,
you know, from a remote piece of equipment, and you
can have multiple of them connected. And the thing I
think is so neat about MIDI is that to this
day it hasn't changed. Like you still buy interfaces, recording
interfaces or mini controllers what they call them. They literally
call them that that have the same exact connection that
(23:12):
can connect up to a synthesizer that came out in
the eighties.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, well said, and this is you know, instantly, I
think a lot of us playing along at home felt
that felt that pool of nostalgia MIDI stuff is just
so cool. I love hearing it. It's fun, you know.
I also like a lot of hip hop that leverages MIDI.
Just to be honest, it's a banger, But you're right,
You're absolutely right. Now, the overlap there, the implacable pace
(23:39):
of technological innovation, it led into again some overstepping of turf,
at least in the opinion of the Beatles Apple Core.
So they come back post MIDI and as this technology
is spreading throughout the world and throughout Apple Computers, and
the Beatles crew says, look, the sound capabilities of the Macintosh,
(24:04):
just the fact that the noises it can make, they
are a breach of our earlier agreement. We can't believe you, guys,
Pinky promised and then did us this way, so fast forward,
it's this is nineteen ninety one at this point, and Noel,
as you pointed out, the case goes all the way
to the High Court in London and they're like.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
The supreme court of that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Correct, well yeah, yeah, yeah, And they're they're grappling with
this question that we that we sort of played with
just a few seconds ago. They have to ask if
this really is a violation of that nineteen eighty one settlement.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
One hundred percent because of the fact that now Apple
Computers was doing stuff in their operating system, in their
software that made these computers capable of interfacing with musical
devices musical equipm. Technically they were in violation of I
don't know, some aspect of that agreement. It's really weird
(25:06):
and convoluted because they certainly weren't putting out music and
selling music products. So it's really a tough thing, and
I understand why it made it so far in the
court systems. Yeah, yeah, because it really it really comes
down to some I hate to say it, but a
little bit of hair splitting and a little bit of
(25:27):
philosophy and perspective. Ultimately, the court says, all right, Apple
computers are not purposely out to drink your proverbial milkshake.
The primary function of the Macintosh is to process data. Now,
(25:49):
can people use that to make music, sure, but they
can also use it however they wish as the end user.
Apple is not making people create any kind of music,
and they're not even really marketing it in that way,
you know.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I Mean.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's just the thing about technology that's so interesting is
it is inevitably going to evolve to do things that
other things have held the market on, you know what
I mean, Like even with like AI, now so much
of the debate around that technology. This is not that different.
It's just a different time. Where like when synthesizers first
came out, people were afraid they were going to take
(26:26):
the jobs of musicians, you know, because it was like
a robo orchestra.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That didn't end up being the case.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
But a similar thing the debate is happening around AI
about the jobs that it could displace. But when you
start to kind of like try to nail down what
is a computer capable of what does it do? That
question becomes kind of moot because it can do all
kinds of things. It can do whatever you program it
to do. It's not inherently one thing. It can be
many things to many people and professions. And you know
(26:54):
sectors right right.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
It's sort of like let's say you sell Swiss army knives,
unctional tools, a leatherman for instance, right, and then somebody
else comes to you and says, hey, we agreed that.
A scissors company comes to you and says we agreed
that we're the ones in charge of scissors, and then
you have to say, well, people can cut things with
(27:18):
a knife, you know what I mean, Like, how is that?
How is that on? Like how is that my responsibility.
You know this, This does seem like a.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Stretch, well exactly, and that's why you can't copyright or
trademark technology as ancient and you know basic as a
knife or a screw.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Right, it is a tool.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
You can have different types of ones, and maybe you
have like a multipurpose device like a Swiss army knife,
and you're trademarking the look of it and the design
of it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
But no one can say I own the knife, you know,
or I own the nail. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
You can say you own a specific production method or
manufacturing approach to a kind of knife, but you can't
be like, I'm the King of knives, which would be
funny but also pretty creepy if you meet someone who
calls themselves the king of knives.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
We suggest that you know, there's a King of knives
somewhere in Muskogee, Wisconsin or something.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
He's got TV commercials.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
I'm them the knife king, you know, I do like
come to my knife palace.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yes, yes, I love a sharp customer.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Oh geez, oh yeah no, so okay, we do know
that Apple computers still had a bit of a cheeky
sense of humor. Here they're nineteen ninety one operating software
has a sound file audit called We'll spell it for
you first, s O s U M I.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
How would you pronounce that? So Sumi.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
It's like a tiny orange right now, that's just satsuma.
Wait a minute, is this a cheeky little joke? Yeah,
lawyer jokes.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Assume me just do it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And they could get away with it if they're doing
hair splitting legal eese, because they can say, oh, it's
just an inspiring name, and we double check to make
sure you don't own the way that's spelled. Why are
you guys mad? So it's it's a it's a prank war,
you know, and this is just like, it's a great story.
(29:24):
But we do know that they can't leave it as is, right,
so they have to figure out a sort of second covenant,
a second pinky swear settlement.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, and this agreement, while acknowledging the changing dynamics of
a computers were capable of, it did kind of broaden
the language a little bit, and it said that Apple
computers could use that logo for computers, data processing, telecommunications,
but excluded music products, which is super weird because again,
it can be a music product given someone writing code
(29:56):
that would allow it to do that, or creating some
sort of peripheral that it would allow to do that,
some sort of device that could be connected to it.
This was never gonna last.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, this is at best a band aid and it
feels like everybody had to know that going in so
while they're trying to make friends and calm the waters,
as it were, Apple computers. According to reports, they pay
off Apple Core. They give them about twenty six point
five million US dollars and then they say to your point, no, look,
(30:29):
we're not going to sell quote physical music materials. However,
ssume me is still a system alert sound on this
day on.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Max Yeah, carried in there.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
It's not used, but I think it's like a as
they update the system software over time, some of the
old things stick around, almost like as like a little
nod to their past. And I think if you look
in that folder where all the systems sound effects are,
you'll still find sasumi.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah. And this is the work of a employee from
Apple called Jim Reeks, called that because it's his name.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He created the sound alerts on Apple System seven and
he originally wanted to uh. He originally wanted to name
that alert let it beep.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
It's good. That's good, So assume he's better.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Though, it's so much more cheeky and like underhanded, you know,
let it Beep is almost showing your hand too much.
And he realized that, knowing that it probably wouldn't pass
legal muster.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, and so he went with Sosumi. And then he
did exactly what we were describing earlier. He's like, oh, no,
it's just a name that sounds kind of Japanese. It
has nothing to do with music. You guys are being weird, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Oh it's so funny, yes, sir, oh man, that's so
fun So we've been hinting at all the while, like
like Apple, you know, the record company, the Beatles organization.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Clearly very sensitive about this.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
This idea of Apple computers, you know, being in the
music business, and it seems like for the most part,
they arrived at an agreement that was more along the
lines of, you guys can't do record label stuff, right,
that's our thing. You know, we're gonna let the MIDI
stuff slide, you know whatever. We understand the changing landscape
of technology and all that, but you guys can't.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Distribute and put out recorded music.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
When did that change, y'all? I think we can, I
think we can conjecture.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Also, of course you can't make an Apple clarinet or whatever.
That would be a bridge too far. That's a CD
called music product. But as you said, the seescape changes
the tide shift once again. It's two thousand and three.
Apple Computer goes to the world at large and says, hey,
we have this idea for a thing called iTunes. Now
you can go to you macadherens. You can go to
(32:53):
the iTunes music store. You can buy individual songs or tracks,
and you can copy it on to your iPod. It's
the new walkman. You can take it with you wherever
you want to go.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
This isn't just a clever idea, Ben, This changes everything
every I mean, right now where we sit in twenty
twenty five, the debate about like how much artists are
making has nothing to do with record sales anymore, has
to do with streams. Everybody you know knows that I'm
stating the obvious, But like Apple were the first ones
to have the clout to kind of push this stuff
(33:28):
out in the world, and then they released a piece
of hardware in the iPod that you also had to
have to play in this ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yeah, they built the sandbox, right, so you have to
if you're a musician, you have to play the game
with Apple and iTunes. Apple Core is still around in
two thousand and three, and they are super not happy
about this. They sue Apple Computer again.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Understandably at this point, man, I'm kind of in the
Apple records or apple Core camp. I mean, this is
clearly Apple Computers taking a big swing. Somebody had to
know in their legal department they were testing this also
knowing that at this point Apple Core is just not
as powerful an entity as they are, they can afford
(34:15):
to fight this in court, and they do big time.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah. Yeah, for years.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's not until two thousand and seven that the respective
apples reach a confidential settlement. We don't know exactly what
they came to terms on, but if you read the
scuttle butt, you'll see strong hints that Apple the computer company,
yet again paid apple Core, the record company. They said,
(34:45):
let us just buy the trademark.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
They cut the legs out from apple Core entirely though, Man,
you think about that like that. Now Apple Core has
to license the use of that name and that trademark
back from Apple record. It's not to say they didn't,
of course, get a gajillion dollars, but if I'm not mistaken,
the first example of this out in the world was
Beatles Rock Band, which was a video game where you
(35:11):
could play Beatles songs for the first time and sing
and all that stuff. Guitar hero but with you could
also play bass and drums. You guys know what this is.
And it appeared in the documentation for that game Beatles,
you know, Apple Core with under exclusive license from Apple
Computers more or less.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And I might not be getting that quite right, but
it's along those lines.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, And this is this is where we go
to at Liss Records. There's a great article you found
from an author calling themselves Patty, and this breaks down
the battle of the Apples. And they put it this way.
They say, it's not merely a legal saga. It is
quote a symphony that echoes the evolution of technology and
(35:54):
the music industry, which I think is a beautiful piece
of writing.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Oh, absolutely very well put. And can I also say
that I just think this is another really good quote
from the Atlas records piece the question and one we've
been asking that's post very eloquently here. The question of
where one company's territory ends and another's begins is a
perpetual challenge in industries marked by rapid innovation. The Beatles
(36:18):
and related acts music finally made its way to digital
music stores, including iTunes in twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, and this is so here's what's amazing. Here's why
I love this story so much. It is a story
that is only going to grow more important in precedent
as time goes on, as technology continues to evolve.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
One hundred percent, the Beatles' music is as important and
iconic today as it ever has been, if not more so.
I mean, so many artists came from influenced by the Beatles,
you know, music, recording technology, innovations, recording production techniques. I
mean so much of that stuff has the Beatles to
thank for it, and of course including their incredible producer
(37:02):
and really like the fifth Beatle, George Martin.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So it's important in this case. Really.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
A trademarquia dot com article points out it highlights the
importance of trademarks. There are values as intellectual property and
the necessity of protecting them.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
And with this speaking of thanking people, thank you, fellow
Ridiculous Historians for joining us for today's episode. Thanks also
to our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Yeah, thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme and
Christopher Hasiotis and eaves Jeff Coates here in spirit.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Thanks to the rude dudes over a Ridiculous Crib. If
you dig this show, you'll love theirs and Noel, thank
you as always, and thanks for being our research associated
on this woman.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
It was super a lot of fun, and there'll be
will be more. I love doing stuff in the music space,
and I think we're going to see more of that
stuff coming from me in the future. But thanks for
taking this journey together, Ben, and also of course Max.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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