Benjamin Lay: The Quaker Who Called Out the Hypocrisy of Slavery, Part 1

Nowadays, people often look back on U.S. Quakers as staunch abolitionists, but this wasn't always the case. In fact, when the Quakers first arrived on the continent they, like many other colonists, owned slaves. It was up to Benjamin Lay to bravely call out their hypocrisy, pointing to the discrepancy between their religious views and their earthly practices.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

(00:27):
to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for
tuning in. If you, like many of us listening, grew
up in the United States, then you are probably familiar
with the iconic face on the Quaker oats box who.
For a long time, as a kid, I did not
know that the Quakers or the religious Society of Friends
were in fact religion. Yeah. I always thought he was

(00:49):
just like a pilgrim. Yeah, I thought it was just
like old timey, vaguely colonial. I'm picturing him in my head,
and I think I'm maybe even picturing him wrong and
inserting a pilgrim hat and sort of a buckle onto
this figure. But I do not believe that is what
he looks like. I think he just has white hair, uh,
and kind of a frock of some sort. Yeah, he
does have a hat. Oh, he does have a hat.

(01:09):
Does have a hat, and it's not it's not super
hesitated to use the words that super pilgrimy I guess.
But yeah, he's also got that kind of you know,
that neck rough ruffle thing. It's not quite a cravat,
not quite an ascot anyway, I'm ben. Oh hey, I'm no.
Um yeah, sorry, I'm digging up pictures Google images of
the quake Roats guy. We're gonna we're gonna dissect this

(01:31):
for a hot minute. Um. Yeah, it's a good sort
of an ascot. What do you call that, the thing
that's like a ruffle, like a like a that's shirt
puffy shirt kind of situation. Yeah, but I feel like
it's just that it's just a neck piece. Well, someone
will tell us. And also your baby oats from dribbling
onto perhaps, Yeah, he's prepared. Makes him wonder if his

(01:52):
hair is real or if that's also uh you know,
like a it's like a bib for his ears. I
gotta say, looking back on the picture the Quaker guy,
now he's way younger than I thought he was, you
know what I mean, he's got no big lines on
his face. He's got a shiny baby esque uh, I
don't know, sheen rosie cheeks. There we go. It's unfair

(02:15):
to him. He's he's he's a what do they call it,
He's a silver fox. He's a real smoke show. He's
he's he's he's a real out show. He's absolute snack. Uh.
He is what the Internet calls a zaddi. Uh. Speaking
of the religious society of friends and friends in general,
we'd like to introduce a very dear friend of ours
the third half of the show, super producer Casey Pegrum.

(02:40):
By the way, the guy on the Quake Roats Box
apparently known as Larry Larry. Yeah, within Quaker roats circles, enthusiasts, uh, insiders.
I don't know, within Quaker meals the that's weird. They
must have made that name up. I wonder if it's
short for Lawrence maybe. Well. I guess not to get
too relativistic about it, but all names are made up

(03:01):
at some point. Speaking of names and fantastic segways, we're
not doing an episode today on the Quaker oats Box,
which is a shame because now I want to do one.
It seems so interesting. But we are doing something related
to Quakers, right, It's true, and I just we wanted
to get that out of our system. Uh, the Quaker
outs guy being our only in road into the Quaker faith,

(03:23):
the Quaker tradition. Um. And you know, I I own
that and I'm fine with it. But you know what,
you can always change every day as a shining new
opportunity to learn something different and to broaden your horizons.
And we did that when it comes to Quakerism, because,
as it turns out, the story of the abolition of
slavery in the United States has some unsung heroes that

(03:43):
were members of the Society of Friends, also known as
the Quakers. Right yeah, And we we tend to look
back on the actions of the religious Society of Friends
as being generally benevolent. But we have to be careful
when we look at history, and we want to avoid
painting with too broad a brush, because you see, it

(04:06):
was not always the case that Quakers were abolitionist. Here.
In fact, when the Quakers first came to the North
American continent, members of their society owned slaves, just as
many other colonists did. And they seemed sadly okay with
the hypocrisy, the discrepancy between their stated religious views and

(04:28):
their real life practice of enslaving other human beings. How
did this change? How did the Quakers go from absolutely
hypocritical people to staunch abolitionists. A lot of it goes
down to the actions of a single man, a man
who is often forgotten or you know, not mentioned in

(04:49):
the history books. Yeah, a man by the name of
Benjamin Lay who is remarkable and not remarkable, I guess,
but stands out in history because of in part of
his stature. He was only four ft tall. Yep. He
was born in sixteen eighty two in Essex. This was
a part of England that at the time was known

(05:10):
for uh fabrics, textile production and then also religious radicalism
and protest He was born into the Quaker faith. He
was a third generation Quaker, and as he grew up
into a young man and into an adult, he became
more and more um I would say, committed to the faith,

(05:32):
which is interesting because I believe his father, William, wasn't
particularly devout. No, no, not at all. That's right. William
was a Quaker, but his first wife was from outside
of the religion. The family were pretty well off. They
were landowners, they had some buildings, but they were always
going to be suspect. They were always going to be
sus in some way because they were members of a

(05:54):
Protestant faith that was not the faith of the Church
of England, and the Church of England, of course, is
not going to take kindly to what it sees as
dissident religions, speaking of which really quickly, um, since where
you know, in the in the spirit of broadening our
Quaker horizons, what exactly does the Quaker faith consist of? Yeah,
it's an interesting question. So we know that eventually they

(06:15):
become abolitionists, but they've also been known, at least throughout
u S history for being conscientious objectors pacifists, you know,
during World War One and World War Two alike. And
they had some pretty progressive views, right, they sure did.
Um again, the Religious Society of Friends UM is it
continues to be one of the most radical Christian sects

(06:37):
that came out of the Reformation, and they kind of
eschewed all of these ideas of creeds and iconic iconography
and a lot of the hierarchy of religious authority and
uh quote to quote an article on f GC Quaker
dot org called Quakerism one oh one. Uh. They had

(06:59):
taken out everything except dependent on the Divine Spirit for
guidance and power. And a man by the name of
George Fox Um was considered to be one of the
main kind of um forces driving the Quaker movement. And
they rely on something that they call testimonies, which is
very important. Um. It describes the witness to truth within

(07:23):
the human heart that is acted out in their everyday lives.
In other words, just kind of goodness and being kind
and being good to others. That's not just with their words,
but something that's much more to do with their deeds. Uh.
And the idea that God is within us all and
that all of life is interconnected. It kind of sounds
a little a little hippie ish in a way. Yeah,

(07:46):
they were also there were also prison reformers, controversially in Philadelphia.
That is a story for another day. Today, we're examining
the life of Benjamin lay A k A. The Quaker comment.
He was a sick kid, so as he was growing
up in his early years, his parents understandably thought, maybe

(08:07):
he'll just get over his illness, you know, and and
his the pace of his growth will catch up in
his adolescence. Yet, as he grew older, it became clear
that he had some sort of medical condition and this
was affecting his growth. Right now, it's tough for us
to have a definitive understanding of his condition, but historians

(08:28):
agree the most likely condition he was suffering from was
a form of Dwarfism. That was also associated with a
curved spine, and that's why he stood about four ft
tall and he had a humped back. But he was
not um. He was not a frail person by any means.
Me being a bit of a mass a guest, I'm
gonna give this pronunciation a try. Of the scientific name

(08:50):
of the condition it was spawn deil pif seal dysplasia
congenita kay, decent try. And he got work on a
farm right and in the sixteen nineties with his elder
half brother, William. William was not a Quaker. However, Benjamin

(09:13):
got along well with his half brother William, and he
worked as a shepherd. He grew old enough to get
into his own line of work, a trade of his
own business, of his own, and so his father sent
him away to become a glover, which is cool there
It could be someone's job to make gloves, that is,

(09:35):
I guess, So yeah, I would, I would hope. So
it doesn't seem like too far a leap. I wonder
if people have the surname glover worked as glovers in
the past, just like he got a shoemaker. That's a tinker, right,
not one. I mean, I don't know like maybe a
glad well a tinker is a cobbler, would be a
shop tinker. Uh. Sometimes tinkers are people who mend pots,

(09:57):
sharper knives. Glover is somebody who's too old for there.
There you go, casey on the case on the case. Yeah,
Glover is someone who makes our sells gloves. So you
know it was good that we didn't assume. Yeah, we
never assume on ridiculous history. We always uh trust but verify.
There we go. Just like Gregan said, today, we're fortunate

(10:20):
enough to talk about another group that understands the importance
of being heard and having a voice. It's a very true, man,
and it comes at a very important time of the year.
It's that time of year when everyone is traveling or
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(10:40):
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(12:32):
ridiculous or text ridiculous to five hundred five hundred. So
what happens with his apprenticeship in is a life of glovery.
The life for Benjamin La gloving glovery. I like glovery better.
I think he nailed it. Yeah, um no, it wasn't
the life for him. I think not. He liked it

(12:53):
a lot less than being a shepherd. I think he.
I don't know, I'm gonna editorialize here a little bit.
I think he probably preferred the out of door wars,
you know, roaming with the with the herds and the
sheep's and his his best dog by his side. You know.
He gliked making mittens and so on. But he didn't
love it. God, that was rough? Oh man? Why so?

(13:16):
So Yeah, you're right, right. He he probably looked back
on his shepherding days and thought that was that was
a nicer life. I was out and I was in
the outdoors, had a more dynamic day to day. I
was doing stuff. And his next to let career choice,
you know, supports that because he decided that it was
the sailor's life for him, which I guess was much

(13:36):
easier to do at that point. You think, so, I
don't know why. It seems like a lot of hard work. No,
it was much easier to run away, run away and
not get caught. Why why why would he have to
worry about getting caught. Oh, yeah, he's twenty one. You
can do what he wants. Did he even matter back then?
It's his life. Yeah, but let let that boy run,
let that boy fly, Let this ponies ride. Yeah. Well,
he wanted to see the world. He knew there was

(13:58):
a huge, vast realm of experience just beyond the visible horizon.
And he said, you know, I might die, I might
get grievously injured. Because the same year he ran away,
seventeen o three, right, like, thousands of British sailors had
lost their lives in a major cyclone, so he knew

(14:18):
what was at stake and he decided yolo, yeah and UM.
It ended up being a good move because it opened
his eyes to the possibilities of the world had to offer.
So he, you know, for about twelve years, he kind
of flitted between London and the sea, his second home
of the sea. He beat out on voyages, I guess

(14:41):
you can say, for months and months, and he got
used to sharing very tight quarters with um, a very
diverse crew of individuals, lots of different ethnic groups represented,
and he kind of learned literally how to get along
with his fellow man. Yeah, it's true. Literally, you have

(15:02):
to get along with your fellow men in order to
cooperate in a sailing situation, or else you're all gonna die. Right.
The only person who's better than other people would be
the captain, and everybody else kind of follows that person's
orders and their whims. That's not entirely true. The hierarchy
is rank and therefore merit based. But a good captain
should be down there in the trenches with his mates

(15:23):
in my opinion. You know, I haven't captained the ship yet,
so I I can't speak for sure. I'd like to
think that's the truth. Second career. I don't know, man,
I don't know. Maybe I'm gonna I gotta learn a
little bit more about gloving. Kind a very striking figure
for a captain. I would say that that's thank you.
And now, due to an ankle injury, I do have

(15:45):
a seaworthy limp, so I look like I could be
out a boat. I guess now I just need to
get rid of the one of the eyes right now.
You have to do that. You can just wear a patch.
Do you have a patch for one of those characters
you play where you meet in random people and poses
a patchman attatchment. Uh, funny that you say that. There's
there's pretty strong evidence that the eye patch motif for

(16:09):
pirates specifically or sailors in general doesn't come from Lucian.
I it's too you've heard this to preserve night vision
when they go down into the cabin beneath YEA. I
never heard that. Yeah, have you heard that, Casey? I
don't think I have now. So the idea is that
they don't have something wrong with their left or right eye.
They switched the patch when they walk out of the

(16:29):
sunshine with low deck because there was very little lighting.
I always thought when you saw him switch the patch,
it was just kind of meant to be a joke,
the fact that they like, don't really have a missing eye,
like a mel Brooks kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah, So
Benjamin Lay did not at this point have an eyepatch,
but he had a hard earned rep And I like

(16:50):
what you pointed out about how diverse his experience was,
because we have to remember this is a time where
people would spend their entire lives living, I mean, barely
going more than a hundred miles from where they were
physically born. And this guy traveled across the globe. He

(17:11):
gained a tolerance for people, tolerance through familiarity and experience
that was absent from a lot of his peers, even
his fellow Quakers. He identified with the underdogs. He was
terrified and horrified and disgusted by the stories he heard
of the slave trade, and he never worked on a
slave ship. He was not friendly to people who did he.

(17:36):
We we think he learned to read while he was
at sea, which is interesting and kind of inspiring, because
you know, you can't blame people for just assuming most
sailors at the time and the sixteen or sevres would
be illiterate. Turns out they were actually monster readers. You know,
they say, but he blew assume Ben, what's that? They're jerks?

(17:56):
I learned something interesting to second ago to just in
quick aside, do you know where the name Quaker comes from?
Is it from a It's a physical motion, right, sure is.
But George Fox again, the founder or one of the
main forces of you know, the credited founder of Quakers,
m apparently once told a magistrate, uh, in in like
Jesus flipping over the money changers table fashion to quake

(18:20):
at the name of God and uh and it's stuck,
similar to the Shakers. Right, that's like a Shaker hymn
shape songs uh shape note singing. Right. Okay, so the Shakers,
just to clear this up real quick, the Shakers came
from the Quakers. The woman who started the Shaker movement,

(18:40):
lady named mother Ann Lee, was formerly a Quaker, and
she incorporated some of her Quaker experience into Shaker practice.
And if I'm not mistaken, uh, Shaker has lived in
much more Amish type situation, self contained, subsistence communities. And
they were celibates, right, that's the thing. They their religion

(19:04):
did not increase through reproduction. It increased through proselytization. But
does that really work. The Shakers were not as numerous
as the Quakers would seem so, and we also have
this idea, I think nowadays, of Quakers being pretty literate,
well educated people. Benjamin at the time did not receive

(19:28):
a lot of formal schooling, but he grew up, you know.
He he learned to read on the mean tides of
the Atlantic, I don't know, and he and he also
became very very well read and self educated as an adult.
There was a moment where I think that's really cemented
his hate of slavery when he was working as a

(19:53):
shopkeeper in Barbados. It's true, and up to this point
he had heard tales of the slave ers and slave
ships and refused to work on one of those types
of ships. We already kind of drawn a line in
the sand there. But um. There was a time when
he was living in London in between voyages where he

(20:14):
met uh someone named Sarah Smith, and she, like him,
also suffered from dwarfs um um and they very quickly
fell in love and got married, and they shared both
the their faith and their their physical conditions, and it
really kind of bonded them together and they started to

(20:35):
kind of really lift each other up and influence each
other in these very forward thinking ideas of the time,
and they moved to Barbados in seventeen eighteen, where there
was a small Quaker community. Unfortunately, though, uh, I think
they didn't realize before they set off for this new life,

(20:57):
was that the island um was built on the practice.
They both so despised, yes, in their minds, uh, the slaves,
the human slaves, were treated worse than the livestock. So

(21:17):
they took action. This was an activist couple. We have
to remember. They held open meetings, They offered to feed
anybody in the islands enslaved population, and that made the
white uh slaver population incredibly upset and they said, you know,
stop interfering with this, even to the point where these

(21:39):
quote unquote masters and mistresses of slaves, as described an
Atlas Obscura, called for the Lays to be banished from
the island. Luckily, the Lays had already made plans to skedattle,
and so it was that in seventeen twenty they returned
to England, but Lay was he now had a taste
for righteous causes. And I won't spoil the rest of

(22:02):
the story reading the headline of this alice obscure article,
but it is by Natasha Frost and as a fantastic read.
So when he came back to England, he was disowned,
formally expelled from two different Quaker congregations. Eventually the couple
boarded a ship bound for Philadelphia in seventeen thirty two.

(22:23):
Benjamin and Sarah thought they would join up with the
famous William Penn's Holy Experiment. They wanted to go to
what he called the good Land, Pennsylvania, and they thought
they would have a future with liberty of future, free
from religious persecution, a future where people were call it

(22:44):
a hot take, treating other people like human beings, that
sounds nice. Lay arrived in Philadelphia, Uh completely appalled um,
because you know, slavery was almost as much ingrained into
the culture as what he had seen in Barbados. And
according to some stats laid out in the Smithsonian magazine

(23:07):
article the Quaker comment was the greatest abolitionist You've never
heard of by Marcus Hddicker, one in ten individuals in
Philadelphia was an enslaved person, and by contrast that that
sadly compares favorably to Barbados, where almost nine out of
ten people on the island were enslaved. There was also,

(23:30):
it feels we're saying this the levels of violence and
repression were apparently lower, but still it's a situation where
slaveries involved chattel slavery, so violence and repression are still
a daily thing that happens all the time. And Laid
notes in his writing that enslaved men would plow so

(23:53):
thresh windows, split rails, cut, would clear land, make ditches
and fences, fodder cattle, run and fetch up the horses.
They were doing all of the work. And he saw
women who were enslaved doing all of the work in
the dairy, in the kitchen, inside and outside. And then
this made him look, uh, with disgust upon the slave

(24:13):
owners who saw is very lazy, right, yeah, And I mean,
I'm sure it affected his view of humanity in general
to a degree. Or maybe there was a moment where
he was like, hash, you know, is everyone just awful?
But he didn't give up, right, And that's the most
important part of any story like this, is he saw
things that he um found disturbing and disgusting, and rather

(24:36):
than just throw his hands up and give up on humanity,
he tried to change it. Yep, and he partnered up
with a guy named Ralph Sanderford. Ralph Sanderford had earlier
published an indictment of slavery against the recommendations of the
Board of Overseers in the community, and that was about
three years ago when Lay ran into Sanderford. Ralph Sanderford

(25:01):
was not doing well. Also, I loved the picture of
somebody to be named Ralph in the seventeen hundreds. It
feels like a nineteen eighties name. It really does. It's
also a very popular chain of grocery stores in Los Angeles.
Oh yeah, that's right. So Lay found this guy wasn't
doing well. He had a lot of bodily infirmities. Lay
also noted that he had a sore affliction of the mind.

(25:24):
And to Benjamin Lay, this was all caused by persecution
from the leaders of the Quaker community. He had. Ralph Sandaford,
that is, had moved from Philadelphia nine miles northeast to
a cabin in the woods to get away from these
people who were pushing him around. And Lay visits with Ralph.

(25:47):
They they speak of many things, the injustices of the
world now to correct them for almost a year, and
eventually he spoke with Sandiford when Ralph Sandeford was on
his deathbed in a sort of delirium, and Sanford passed
away only forty years old May seventeen thirty three. You

(26:07):
gotta think that this was a meaningful friendship to Lay
because he had just experienced such abject horror in Barbados
and just seeing the worst of people for him to
find somebody like this who could kind of share his
h his understanding of you know, the common good and
working with your fellow man and all that. Um And actually,

(26:28):
you know, I think you mentioned this ben Um he
published that treatise against the objection of the Board of Overseers.
I don't want to understate that enough like that is
literally like the body, the organization that you know governs slavery.
I never even thought of that as being a thing,
but of course there had to be some kind of
you know, organization behind it. It's really, uh it did

(26:51):
it kind of breaks your heart to think about. It's
a banality of evil kind of thing. Yeah, so Ley
takes up the torch from Ralph and he saw arts
doing stuff similar to the protests. He and Sarah at
stage before he has public protest, and he says, I'm
gonna shock the friends of Philadelphia, the Quaker members of
the community, into awareness because they have their own deep,

(27:15):
abiding moral failings. He said, look at all the hard
labor that goes into making these commodities that are making
you so much money, tobacco and sugar particularly. He shows
up at a Quaker meeting that happens annually with three
large tobacco pipes stuck in his bosom, stuck in his chest.

(27:35):
What does that mean that like strapped to him like
John Popper carries around the harmonicas. Yeah, like John Popper,
I guess. He sits between these galleries of men and women,
elders and ministers who are seated separately. He just sits
there and stews, And as the meeting ends, he rises,
without saying a word, and takes one of those large

(27:57):
pipes and quote no one asked you about the quote,
dashes one pipe among the men ministers, one among the
women ministers, and the third among the congregation assembled. Wait
a minute, is he throwing them or is he hitting,
he's flogging them with it. How I don't understand. You
feel like by the time he got to the third pipe,
people would have wised up. And also, how is he

(28:18):
doing this simultaneously? Is he doing it like one group
at a time? And why do they each get their
own pipe? I don't understand. Couldn't he have accomplished the
same thing with one pipe, ben I don't know. I
guess it was a different time pipe wise. Yeah, but
the bottom line is it created It created a real
hubbub uh. Okay, Yeah, here we go. This is from

(28:39):
Smithsonian mag I'm gonna quote the article directly because it
is a really good job of something that's up. With
each smashing blow. He protested slave labor, luxury, and the
poor health caused by smoking the stinking saltweed. I never
heard of tobacco referred to as saltweeds saltweed. Interesting. Yeah,

(29:00):
And he was really trying to band together his people,
you know, toward a common cause which he knew they
were capable of in their hearts. This is only the
beginning of Benjamin Lay's career really as an activist, as
a protester. Right, It's true, and you might be asking yourselves. Really, guys,
you're gonna make that's a two parter. Really you're gonna

(29:21):
do that to me? Well, yeah, we really are. The
answer is yes, a hard yes, because this is an
important episode, important episode you want to give it its due,
and we hope that you will join us for part
two of the Life and Times of Benjamin Lay Because
new spoilers things get pretty intense and he does some
i would say, very innovative protesting, very innovative, bordering on

(29:45):
the absurd, and varying into sort of performance art territory
as you'll start to hear. Um, So you can wait,
it's just a couple of days, because this one is
absolutely gonna be worth it. The payoff is there, we promise, agreed,
and this ends our episode, but not our show. Continue
the conversation with us. You can find us on Facebook,
you can find us on Instagram, you can find us
on Twitter. We want to hear your stories of other abolitionists,

(30:10):
other people on the side of the good guys who
for one reason or another have been kind of forgotten
by history. It's true, and you can find us in
those locations at Ridiculous History on Twitter and Instagram. Um
on Facebook. You can join our Ridiculous Historians group simply
by naming Ben or myself in the little question that
pops up, and then you're in, and you can join

(30:30):
us for all kinds of fun discussions with your fellow
Ridiculous Historians, including meme posts, uh, you know, musings on
all kinds of historical subjects, and you know, it's just
a genuinely good group of folks. So we really recommend
you checking that out. Hot takes from Young Quizzles himself,
which is how I'm referring to the quiz turn. Yeah,
he's he's He's in there lurking pretty regularly around every corner.

(30:52):
You can probably even engage him in a flame war
if you if you so choose. You can also check
out every single episode we've ever done on our website,
Ridiculous History Show dot com. We are not just the show,
we are also people, and you can follow us individually
on the Internet. I am at how Now Noel Brown
on Instagram exclusively, I am at Ben Bowling on Instagram,

(31:13):
I am at Ben Bowling h s w uh the
the Old School House of Works head to know Why?
And on Twitter and let's see, well we've got we've
gotta get cracking on part two. We should do in
the meantime. Big thanks to super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams,
who composed our theme, Christopher haciotas his shape lingers in
the corner, sort of like one of those aura clouds

(31:34):
you see. Uh, And then you've got this other shape
that sort of looms overhead like a dark rain cloud.
And that would be Jonathan's trick from the Quisters spirit
a k A. Young quizzles himself. I don't know what
I've cracking up. I like it. Also thanks to Gabe Louesier.
Where would we be without a mention of Gabe. Also
thanks to Eve's Jeff Cope, Thanks to Benjamin Leigh, and

(31:55):
thanks to all the historians out there who preserved this
person's store right and brought them back into the mainstream narrative.
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

(32:15):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.