November 12, 2024 • 45 mins
Most people never get the chance to travel to Bhutan. Nestled high in the Himalayan mountains, this ancient kingdom is unique on multiple levels. It's the only Vajrayana Buddhist nation on the planet -- and it's also the only nation that measures its success in terms of happiness rather than money. In today's episode, Ben, Noel and Max explore the history of Bhutan and the inspiring idea of GNH - Gross National Happiness.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the
(00:27):
show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for
tuning in. We're so glad that you're here. If you're
hearing this the day it comes out, Welcome to November twelfth,
twenty twenty four. We're midway on the way to Thanksgiving
and we have a travel episode for you. Before we
do this, let us describe your three favorite companions for
(00:53):
a crazy, crazy international trip. First off, our super producer,
mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Woo who We're gonna climb some mountains.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Y'all sure?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Second, our main man here, known as the bag Man.
In some areas of the world, it's mister Noel Brown.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Give it up. They call me Bilbo Bagman. It's true.
In speaking of that, you know, when you ask this
question about, you know, traveling campaigns, I immediately my mind
goes to, like, who's my D and D party? What
are each individuals like superpower abilities.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That will serve us on this quest? We need the specialties?
Yeah yeah, And it's your boy Ben Bowling our our
question today.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
This is something that's been.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
On our minds pretty often for years now. Noel, Max
and I have had conversations about a place called.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Bhutan, a magical place far away land land locked in fact,
country on the eastern ridges of the glorious Himalayas that
has been referred to by some as the last Shangri Law. Yes,
I haven't, Bye, we have not yet mounted this sojourn
yet though, have we been, because it's kind of hard to.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Get to Yeah, yeah, have you ever visited Bhutan? For
most people the answer is no, and Stade Statistically, if
you asked most of most Americans, we're Americans. If you
ask most of us to point to Boton on a map.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Couldn't do it. I could do if the name was
on there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, well that's why we make maps that way, history
of cartography.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It's aitty bitty though, right, And it's nestled amongst a
lot of much larger land masses, so it would now
you know, looking at it zoomed out, it's kind of
a spec You might not even be able to read
the text, Max.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Mm hm, you might just see it be and an h.
We also know to your point, Noel, that Bouton is,
as you said, high up in the heavens of the Himalayas.
It's nestled between Tibet, which is controlled by China, and
nestled between any Quebet, which, yeah, which already.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
It's nineteen ninety five all over it.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And China and India are two of the biggest up
and coming countries in the world. They're going places, don't
you think, I you know what I I think it's
part of my different job if I say anything about it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
But yeah, yeah, sorry, no worries.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Back in twenty twenty one, we spoke about Baton briefly
referring to we had an episode on what Weird Courtship Rituals,
and we talked about the Bhutanese practice of night hunting.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Oh, I don't remember night hunting. That sounds a little scary.
This is a courtship practice. Sounds a little hunger gamez
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
This is a travel episode because Noel Max, we're journeying
back to Batan because there is a different, odd, wholesome
aspect of this country as well, which has been described
as ridiculous by certain outsiders. But we're we're kind of
into it. It's the only Vajiana Buddhist nation in the world,
(04:14):
and for a lot of people it's a dream destination,
but it's pretty tough to get there.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, it is. But that dream that is kept
alive in Bhutan is in no small part due to
how they measure the success of their country much much,
much differently than we do here for certain in the
United States. Rather than monetary measures, they're looking a little
(04:39):
more inward. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, Bhutan does not graid its success as a country.
And to your point earlier in Bhutan is not a
big country by any means. It has a population about
eight hundred thousand in twenty twenty four. It decided at
some point not to create it success in terms of
gross domestic product, in terms of economic output. Instead, they
(05:08):
hung out and back in the nineteen seventies they said,
maybe we should define success for our country by how
happy the people living in it are.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that sounds nice. Let's get into this and how
this works. After a quick cold open bring and we've returned.
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
The land we call Bhuton today was inhabited by humans
as early as two thousand BCE. But as we were
talking about off air, we still don't know a lot
about its ancient origins. So, uh, Noel, maybe you and
I can give people just the high level. That's funny
because it's a high elevation country.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Success. Oh man, there's apparently this movie this dropped recently
called Elevation. That's a total ripoff of a quiet place.
But the kind of the inverse where it's these monsters
that cannot exist at high elevation. So Bhutan would be
spared from the apocalypse brought on by the creatures in
this apparently quite hacky creature feature. That's that's out in
the theater soon. But yeah, it's true. Ben Buddhism was
(06:17):
first introduced to the people of Bhutan in the seventh
century AD, when Tibetan king's Songsten Gompo reigned from six
twenty seven to six forty nine, converted to Buddhism and
extended the Tibetan Empire into the area that empire he
already controlled. So I mean, is this this is It's
easy to in a footnote of history say extended the
Tibetan Empire, but that would be by way of conquest, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, it wasn't a cool zoom meeting.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Right. He didn't just pop over and said, yeah, come
join us.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, they didn't say he made some good points. No,
this was the old story of historical conquest, blood and treasure.
We know by the tenth century, Bhuton's adoption of Buddhism
had a significant impact on its political development. It's always
(07:08):
been a theocracy from that point. And locally, what's curious
going to our point about how we don't know much
about the providence of Bhutan. Locally, it's been known by
many names. The first Europeans to get over there were
Portuguese and they were Jesuits.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Classic. Oh, and if you really want to see a
cool depiction of some of these types of individuals who
you know were off in the front lines of exploration
and conquest, check out Showgun, the FX series. There's a
whole plot involving like Portuguese Jesuits.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yes, yeah, And the Portuguese Jesuits that reached bhutand this
occurs in sixteen twenty seven. They were Estevao, Casella and
dal Cabral and they talk to other people and surrounding areas,
and whenever they asked about what we call Bhutan today,
(08:06):
people would say, oh, that's the Canberrasaci, whether Potente or
the mall. It really depended on who you asked. As
far as what name.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
That you got, well, and that makes sense because until
the early seventeenth century they really existed as this kind
of loose connection of fiefdoms that were under the control
of different kind of I don't know, warlords or whatever
you might want to call them, but they did not
get along with each other, so there really wasn't much
unity to speak of. That unity did eventually come when
the Tibetan lama and military leader Nawang Yam y'all, who
(08:41):
had actually fled from religious persecution in Tibet, showed up
and basically unified these warring clans I guess you could
call them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And he built this network of impregnable fortresses they're call
zongs dzo ngs. The most famous kind of example of
this architecture is the Tiger's Nest. So look that up
with your favorite recreational vice of choice and prepare to
(09:11):
learn really cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
This guy.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
This guy helmed the building of these fortresses and then
also set forth a code of law that, to your point,
Noel unified these other fiefdoms altogether. And here's a crazy
conspiracy for you, folks. When Gahweang Namgau died in sixteen
(09:35):
fifty one, the unified government was so important and so
fragile that his successors decided to just not tell anyone
the leader died for fifty four years.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You know, if they had had camera phones and the
internet back then, they wouldn't have been able to keep
a lit on this, even though they probably didn't wouldn't
get good reception up there in them hills. But yeah,
you think about the ability to keep a secret like
that by today's standards, and it's just kind of mind
boggling that they were able to do that. Yeah, Like,
did they just tell him? He'll get back to you.
(10:12):
You know. Anyway, you can't turn on the computer without
finding a spoiler for your favorite TV show, let alone
that the leader of a free nation died, right.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, And we still don't know a ton of early
history of Butad because most of the records were sadly
destroyed in a fire that ravaged the ancient capital back
in eighteen twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
That's right. Then, in nineteen oh seven, which is kind
of a big year, a red letter year for the country,
when Wang Chuk was chosen unanimously as the hereditary king
of the country by the Lengye Shog of leading Buddhist monks.
I imagine the len Ye Shog is a particular title,
(10:58):
like a high level official within this order of Buddhist monks, right,
which was also in control of the government. Right.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, there's no discernible separation of church and state in this,
which would make it arguably a theocracy. The person you're mentioning,
Wang Chuk got the coside of the leader of the
Buddhist monks, very powerful force, the local government officials, the
heads of every rich family. This is the basis of
(11:28):
modern Bhuton today. And there have been some interesting and
sometimes inspiring plot twist along the way, especially that time
they said, Hey, why is the rest of the world
so stressed about this money thing? Does money really make
you happy? This is where we enter the wholesome, ridiculous
(11:52):
history part of the episode nol Gross National Happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I mean, it's when going over this material and digging
a little further into it on my own, you start
to look at this and almost it seems like it
would be immediately mocked by certain capitalist forces, you know,
or just by folks that are running the government like
here in the United States, like the idea that anything
(12:19):
other than constant year over year, monetary growth is the
way to measure success. Would be found to be absurd
by these types of folks and worthy of mockery. Like
I could picture certain individuals, you know, pundits or whatever,
just absolutely dragging something like this or a country like this,
and say, how could you even possibly think like this?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Right here in the West, in the United States in particular,
and in a lot of other industrialized nations, the idea
of happiness is equated with money. There's a New York
Times article that explores this in a fascinating way, where
in the journalist notes economists as your consumer confidence on
(13:01):
the assumption that the resulting figure says something about progress
and public welfare. The gross domestic product or GDP is
routinely used as shorthand for the well being of a nation.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
But Noel, we've.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Talked about this off air. I've talked about this with Max,
and economy can be doing gangbusters and the people in
the place where the economy is doing well can be
having horrible lives.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's just a misnomer. I mean, I'm sorry, We're not
here to soapbox about any of this kind of stuff.
And you know, to quote Biggie, more money, more problems.
I mean, that's absolutely true. And the older you get
and the more you start to maybe come into a
career or whatever, the expectations is to continue to rise.
And given our position kind of in this system that
(13:49):
we're talking about here in the US, you start to
kind of judge yourself against that GDP and judge yourself
against these expectations of wealth. And if you're not careful,
you spend your entire life, you know, and the more
money you have, the more you want to have more,
the more you want to be like the next guy.
And that isn't happiness. I'm sorry, it's just not what
happiness is. In fact, it's misery.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Gotta watch Apocalypto. They have a thing about this anyway.
So yes, I think we're raising good points. The Kingdom
of Bhutad is not trying to be a huge expansionist empire. Instead,
gross national happiness, which is sometimes called gross domestic happiness.
It's a philosophy that currently guides the government. What it
(14:33):
means essentially is this, the country has decided to eschew
or throw away the traditional economic metrics, and they said,
you know what, we're going to figure out our country's
vibe based on how much everybody wins, how we develop
(14:54):
socioeconomic equitable situation, how do we conserve the environment, how
do we preserve and promote our culture, how do we
make sure our government is not corrupt. That's a checklist
of cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, win for one is a win for all. And
I know what a lot of folks might be thinking, like,
is this vaguely communist or vaguely socialists And it's not
exactly real own thing, right, Like really, yeah, it's super interesting.
So I mean to the government of Bhutan, it's simple.
In two thousand and nine, the leader his eminence the
(15:28):
rin Pouchet, which is a big deal. This is this
like spiritual kind of the idea of a reincarnated spiritual
like the king of the monks, right, his eminence Ked
Drupchen ren Puschet, the fifth ree incarnate and head the
sang Chen again Suklach Monastery. Again, very much a theocracy.
And you were doing a great job with these prefaciations,
(15:49):
doing my best. That's in Troungsta, Bhutan. He actually became
the youngest ever ren puschet or spiritual leader spiritual master
in the history of Bhutan at only nineteen years old.
So that was a big deal in and of itself. And
it would seem that he put his money where his
mouth is, or vice my mouth where his money would go,
and we're going to get rid of money. I don't know,
it's a bad metaphor, but he really wanted to practice
(16:14):
what he preached on a large scale in terms of, like,
how can we separate ourselves from some of the more
you know, secular trappings and things that are ultimately can
be negative for people's mental well being and focus a
little bit more on kind of a holistic approach to
mental and spiritual health.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I uyeah, yeah, one hundred percent nailed it. He was
a or is a liaison to the larger world outside
of Baton, and to these guys, this is a very
simple thing. It's just quote a set of collective conditions
that is generally needed to live a good life. And look,
(16:55):
everybody outside of Baton, we live in a world that
is just chock full of complicated governmental economic policies. To
put things so simply sounds refreshing. But how did they
get there? How does this idea of quantifying happiness works?
(17:15):
To answer that? To like, answer even where it comes from.
We have to go back to nineteen seventy two, which
technically means this is within our purview.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Right, Yeah, it's more beautiful. Well, the story and the
origin of Bhutan as well within our perduc okay, but yeah,
as a nation. But you're right, it's crazy how modern
this this concept is. So let's travel back to nineteen
seventy two together Bhutan's newly crowned leader, King Yigme. See,
I'm getting all the pronunciations today. King Jigme Singye wang
(17:48):
Chuk was very much pondering this conundrum, you know, of
how when you focus on economic growth exclusively as a
measure of the success of your nation, you're kind of
ignoring your citizens actual well being and your citizen's actual happiness.
Because he kind of clocked what we've both been screaming
(18:09):
this whole time that I just think that GDP to
happiness quot shent is absolutely out of whack.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, sorry, economists, and his excellency studied abroad. He went
to different parts of the world, and he felt like
he was seeing the same thing over and over again.
People would say, Oh, the GDP is great, Oh the
economy is increasing, but when he walked the streets right
(18:40):
when he saw the people on the ground, he saw
countless cases of environmental degradation, he saw startling inequality, and yes,
if you're wondering, he did that part of his education
in India, and he saw war and he saw crime proliferating,
and he said, you know what we need, Bhutad. We
(19:00):
need to ensure that any prosperity our country encounters is
shared across society. That's the only sustainable way to do it.
We need to preserve the cultural traditions, the things that
make us Bhutanese. We got to protect our environment. And
if people say to the government that there is a problem,
(19:21):
we need a government to respond without corruption. And from
nineteen seventy two, he's still in school when he cooks
up this idea. He's the guy who coins the term
gross national happiness. From nineteen seventy two all the way
to another plot twist. He spends the next decades trying
to just do that.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, and it kind of catches on beyond his country.
You know, there's a really great New York Times piece
that came out in two thousand and five by Andrew C. Revkin.
And Revkin had this to say about it. Around the world,
a growing number of economists, social scienceists, corporate leaders, and
bureaucrats are trying to develop a measurement that takes into
(20:04):
account not just the flow of money, but also access
to healthcare, free time with family, conservation of natural resources,
and other non economic factors. Been does this sound familiar? Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Think our buddy may have been ahead of his time.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So what we're showing you here is even economists that
are largely disconnected from the inner world of Bhutan or
the wider spiritual world of Buddhism, they heard this philosophy
and they said, yeah, maybe there's something missing, so much
so that in two thousand and five, four hundred people
(20:40):
from a dozen plus countries got together in Nova Scotia
for a conference where they said, let's try to reimagine
the dismal science of economics. And also that is the
street name for the study of economies. It's called the
dismal science.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Are you serious? I am so serious. That's incredible. That's
why I didn't pursue it. I had no idea is
that that? Yeah? Wow, okay, that so much makes sense now.
But this included in that four hundred three dozen representatives
from Ding Ding Ding, Bhutan, including monks, government officials, teachers,
(21:19):
and others you know involved in this kind of you know,
philosophy of measuring a country's success by the happiness of
its citizens. Imagine that the idea of building a content
fulfilled and happy and equitable society.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, oh, and don't get it twisted. We have to
put this part in. The people of Bhutan are by
a large not rich at all. While household incomes in
Bhutan are still amid the world's lowest, especially if you
look at GDP bup bup bup, bup up up. We
(21:57):
know that the policies enacted under the idea prioritizing happiness
have resulted in higher quality of life, in higher life expectancy.
From nineteen eighty four to nineteen ninety eight, just a
little more than a decade, life expectancy increased by nineteen years.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
And you might be thinking, well, as history progresses, life
expectancy does tend to go up. But this, I think
we could all argue, is even outside of the norm
of you know, maybe what would just happen organically by
the availability of medicine and medical technology and things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, it's stunning, It is astonishing, and the country is
still extremely strict about development. At least sixty to seventy two.
I think seventy two percent of its country remains forested.
It does welcome a limited supply of wealthy tourists. We'll
(22:59):
talk about it at the end because I'm going to
try to pitch you with Max and going with me.
And it makes money by exporting hydro power to India
because it's up in the mountains, you know, it's got
that glacial connect.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, but you know, I think the focus here, or
the takeaway is that the incredible prioritization of their natural
resources and their history and the you know, beauty of
their country. Ben you mentioned I think it was called
the Tiger's Nest at the top, which is one of
those fortified situations, you know, that one of the early
rulers of the country, you know, focused on. They're literally
(23:34):
these gorgeous kind of I don't know I'm saying Pagoda
esque type structures because that's just what I liken them too.
But they're mounted like on the sides of these incredible
steep cliff sides, and it's an absolute marvel of engineering
in and of itself, and that's the kind of stuff
that they're not gonna let people mess with, you know.
(23:54):
And you can't hike that trail, you know, up the mountain.
It's called the Tigers Nests and it's like very difficult
pass to hike. But you see all this beautiful stuff
that is an example of the way they preserve their
history and their their natural you know features.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
And despite what longtime listeners may know about me as
an entity, I love monasteries. Have you gone to the
monastery in Conyers.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
We've talked about it that I've got to, we got
we got to, and I really want to. Next.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Do you want to go with us to a monastery?
I promise there will be no hot air balloons.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
We'll even provide a mantra for you.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Oh yeah, I'm totally doing a monastor. Actually a few
months back, when I was in New York, I was
sitting Noel texts photos.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I was in Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
My friends really wanted to go to the Lego store,
which I was like, okay, and I was like, I
don't want a Lego store. In right across street was
a giant cathedral. The Giant Cathedral, which was the most
capitalistic place I went in all of New York, the
Lego store, the cathedral, so much more capitalistic. It was like, yeah,
(24:58):
one can years ago everything with all.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
That money goes directly to God, though, and I forgive
you for not texting me as well.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
That is the spirit of Buddhism.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But the Catholic Monastery Our Lady of the Holy Spirit
out in Conyers is great.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Get to go visit if you have a chance.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
They're not going to try to proselytize with you. They've
got also an awesome Bondzeye Museum. The Tiger's Nest in
the local language is Pero Taksong. So this becomes the
official goal. Gross national happiness becomes the official goal of
the government of Bhutan in the enshrine it in the
(25:39):
Constitution which has enacted on July eighteenth, two thousand and eight.
So from nineteen seventy two to two thousand and eight,
the king who had this epiphany has been working ardently
(26:01):
toward this goal. And look for the more cynical amid us.
This may sound like a performative political thing.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
This is where we get to another I think very
wholesome piece of ridiculous history, it's neat.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
It's kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So the leaders of Bhutad and the king this is
still pretty much an absolute monarchy until two thousand and eight.
They evaluate happiness through multiple lenses and they get to
the idea of what government makes people or gives them
the best chance for happiness, and they say, let's try democracy,
(26:40):
and no, I think this stood out to both of us.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
The people did not love the idea now, and that's
why it's a really complicated thing. Immediately you're like, Okay,
that's unusual, but it is sort of there's multiple ways
to look at it where it's like, on the one hand,
you could argue that maybe they were just so you
to existing under a under that form of government that
(27:04):
they were kind of spooked. But then you can also
look at it as like it was just working for
them and they believed in the benevolence of their leader,
because like, dictatorships are only I think truly bad when
the leader is corrupt, you know, and there's no real
focus on the people. But it would seem that their
king really did care about the people and made choices
(27:27):
that directly benefited the people. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, the people of Bhutah. The Bhutanese were super on
board with this. They loved the king, as this is
a religious figure. The king is the one who came
to the folks and said, all right, we're going to
try out democracy in some form technically constitutional monarchy, and
(27:51):
this tested his otherwise absolute rule. If you look at
news reports of the time, you'll see that people in Bhutah,
like you said, Dol, we're apprehensive, they were reluctant to
embrace this. And I love that you're pointing out context
here because if we go to an interview with the
country's first democratically elected prime minister, who's got a really
(28:14):
interesting name, it feels part Bhutanese and for some reason
part Victorian England.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
A little bit. Yeah me, why Thinley? Why Thinley? I
don't know if that's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
We've got a response from him in a long form
interview he had with the Council on Foreign Relations where
he was put in a weird situation where as one
of the first democratically elected officials, he had to explain
why the country was maybe not super on board with
democracy and the visa Keen.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
It's also like, I mean not to be too I
already kind of get it. I mean, look at how
democracy works in other parts of the country and also
in that region. So many failed democracies I could totally
get on with thinking that maybe it was not the
best experiment to try, right and you know, and he
put it this way, we'll break it up. Like you said,
(29:08):
the people were not keen on bringing the kind of
change that, in their eyes and in their mind could
not be very different from what they saw in the
world at large, and in particular in our neighboring countries
in South Asia.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
In many of the countries than they continues, democracy had
failed or was in the process of failing, and leading
to tremendous upheavals strife among the people.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
In some cases, they have seen so much violence that
people felt that under the benevolent rule of a king
who was so very popular, who was revered, loved and
adore by the people, they had the.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Best and they were not about to give up the
best that they had for somebody that, as I said,
could perhaps not be different from what they saw.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Elsewhere one percent. And he goes on. So they were anxious,
but the king prevailed over them, saying that even though
the final choice must be theirs. They must realize that
the king becomes the leader only by the accident of
birth boom boom boom, the accident of birth bens and
not by merit or virtue. He's literally pointing out, like
to the people under a monarchy, the problems with a
(30:14):
monarchy of which he himself is the beneficiary, right, the
leader goes on, and that to place the future of
a country in the hands of such a person is
not in the long term interest of the country.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Now, can you give me some raucous applaws?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I love that quote. Now, guys, if you want to
pick me, you know, as your leader. I mean, I'm
not saying this from an opportunistic standpoint. I'm more than
willing to serve, just not as your king. You know.
That's what he said. Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And as a guy who, as you know, based on
my past centuries, I am very anti monarchy, I just
want to take a moment and appreciate how wholesomely ridiculous
this is. The people are saying they don't want democracy,
the king who could make them do that instead does
way of open hand, and it's like, hey, just to
(31:08):
be honest, I was just born in this position, you
know what I mean, technically anybody could have been king.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
He is a benevolence dictator in a way.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, He's like, we've got to all be part of
this experiment for it to work in the long term.
It's a topsy turvy situation because historically most kings commit
great acts of violence upon their subjects just to maintain
their power. And this guy is saying, hey, we're all cool,
let's try let's try to make this a long term thing.
(31:42):
I mean, Bhutan is certainly not a perfect place by
any means. There are great concerns about the treatment of
the Nepalese population. But the courage that exhibits in questioning
a fundamental assumption of the modern world that money means happiness.
We know science proves money does not equate to happiness
(32:04):
after a certain threshold of income, but it gains the
rest of the world something to think about. And all
the conversation is continuing today at the World Economic Forum,
at the CFR, at all the you know, the big
the big movers and shakers. Internationally, it's it's happening at
the United Nations, and we have to wonder, could this
(32:26):
only work in a very small, isolated place high in
the Himalaya, the so called Kingdom of Heaven, or just
maybe could something like gross domestic happiness also make life
a little better for all of us schmucks down here
off the mountain.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
You know, Ben, we just had a big election here
in this country, and I'm really hoping that they go
the gross domestic happiness route. Wouldn't that be cool? I'm
I'm choosing to be optimistic about.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
This, all right, We got a ven diagram. I'm a
nihilistic optimist.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Okay, cool, you mean in the middle somewhere there we go.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So this is a story that we found uplifting. There's
much more to the story. We'd like to end it
with just some quick tangents in trivia about a country
will hopefully get to travel to one day.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
That's right. In addition to the what is it the
Last Changri law, it also has a really cool nickname,
the Land of the thunder Dragon boom boom boom boom. Yeah,
he say, isn't exactly as menacing as it seems. That
it's not a Kaiju size, you know, Godzilla esque creature,
(33:37):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's like going to a town where they have a
mascot that's everywhere. The thunder dragon is in architecture, It's
depicted in art. You see it on the nation's flag.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Drook is what it's known as colloquially, that's the official name.
I believe it's it's actually part of their mythology, not
an actual living creature at all. No, it's more like,
I mean, you know, it's based on science. Maybe they
exist within the lore and the context of their belief system.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, they're home to a ton of endangered animals too,
so this would be a cool place to try to
catch a cryptid if you're on board. There are no
traffic lights in Bhutad at all. If you go to
the current capital, Timpo, then you'll see there is a
there's like a decorated stand where traffic police manually direct traffic,
(34:36):
similar to North Korea.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Like the lollipop men, you know, and in the UK. Yeah,
I was about to say, is it just like the
honor system ben like as far as zoo goes when
and is this a product of maybe they don't have
the kind of modern, you know, traffic build up that
we see in other parts of the world. It seems yeah,
way dangerous, way fewer cars that would makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Also the national sport following up on our earlier sports
phase is archery. It's not the kind of archery you're
thinking about. It's a big deal. If you have the
privilege to visit Bhutan. Pretty much any family you meet
is going to have a bow and arrow set and
they will properly drop everything if you want to go
(35:20):
learn archery.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
How is it different than maybe the Olympic kind of
versions of archery that we might be aware of. I
know archery is also real big in like Korea. Yeah, yeah,
it's in Bhutan.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
It has a religious significance and social significance. Also, the
targets are placed differently than they would be in the Olympics.
I still can't believe the cryptid point. I wasn't even
thinking about this man until we just started talking about it.
With over seventy percent of the land covered by forest.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Forested, yeah, way of the same with India. We just
did an episode recently and stuff that I want you
to know about the cryptids of India, And a big
reason for that possibility is how how much impassable you
know forest there is and how much opportunity there might
be for something to exist kind of under the radar,
and it's very similar here in Bhutan.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, it's also we've heard of carbon neutral countries. Bhuton
is a carbon negative country. They make, you know, they
make the average amount of CO two that you would expect,
but their forest ground captures all of it, so it's
(36:30):
actually eating carbon from other parts of the environment. Bhuton
is better for better for the global environment.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
That's because they don't mow down the forests. That's that's
a whole part of their philosophy, and they're governing principles
to not do that kind of thing and not to
prioritize industry over you know, the kinds of things that
will hopefully help preventing global catastrophe. They listen to the Lorex, right,
I always listen to Lorax.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
There is one thing I wanted to surprise surprise you
guys with which might not be familiar to everyone. Just
if you get to chance to travel to Bata and
first off, send us photos, we love that. Secondly, you're
gonna see a lot of penis artwork.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Ah. Still, I'm down with that. There, Yeah, I'm down
with that.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, Flanking doorways, hanging off rooftops painted on homes in
window displays.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
You had me at penis artwork. Yeah he didn't. You
needn't say no more, Ben, I was.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I was on the fence, like all the climbing stuff
and then penis artwork.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I'm in. You had me a penis BND and you
had me a penis. You had me a pen It's
I'm in the say no more, say less. It's also
highly regulated or illegal to smoke, right, isn't that the thing?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It was the first nation in the world to ban
tobacco for a while until the pandemic kicked in and
a lot of smuggling happened over the border. Uh so
now it's tightly controlled.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
And well, I think that's interesting. I think all of
us here ridiculous history aren't the biggest proponents of outright
prohibition because we know that it just leads to smuggling.
It just leads to black market stuff, which leads to crime.
And I just think, so this is to me is
a little short sighted. You know, I guess maybe coming
from a good place, but it's it's tough. You know,
(38:23):
no one we're going to stop their vices just because
the government tells them. Max has a cigar that would.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Probably the cigar away.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
I will be very you can prime Max's cigar from
his cold dead hand for one CS a year. Okay,
wonder you're on record. It's fine, but I have but
I just have three in a drawer.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
It's uh, this is where we learn to that point.
Bhuton is definitely a work in progress.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
It's been a dream country of mine to visit for
many years. It hasn't worked out yet. Visiting Bhuton is
quite expensive. Just getting over there is expensive, and if
you are American, you have to pay.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
It used to be two one hundred a day. It
used to be higher.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Now it's about one hundred dollars a night every twenty
four hours just to be there, just to be there
as an American, not counting hotel.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But is it also affordable though? Like is are the
hotel fees? I know a lot of times in Asian
countries is expensive to get there, But then the you
know the actual cost of staying for a while or
not too bad? I hope we find out together. I
would like to. Yeah, sounds like a real great idea.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
The visa is only forty bucks a pop. That's great,
that's actually not too crazy, but we will have to
I know not all of us are fans of flying
or heights. We will have to be ready to fly
into one of the world's most difficult airports.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Okay, difficult, how like narrow like perhaps some mountain I mean,
we know it's mountainous. You probably have to come in
for a landing between some crazy peaks.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I gotta link here from CNN from our pale little
at Marcus where you can see what it looks like.
There's one landing airway or runway. There's one takeoff. They're
both very short. You called it man, there are this
is between two eighteen thousand foot peaks. When you're landing
(40:21):
at the very last minute, just to make it in,
you have to take this crazy, this crazy turn.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Dog leg turn. I'm seeing like I got a gift
on the CNN travel site that shows you from the
cockpit perspective, and it is serious manure. It's a make
your peace with God stuff. It's show jumping here real quick.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, I just want to say, like you know, as
it's been staying on the show, I'm not the biggest
fan of flying.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I've gotten better about it. I'm also not a fan
of heights, but like.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
This is terrifying, but it's also like super cool that
I would do it.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
And I vote Philip J. Fry. This is a cool
way to die. Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I That's what I say with whomever we're sitting next
to in the plane. I'm like, hey, good news. Though,
right before we hit the turn and have to grab
our beat me here, have to grab our ocean handles,
I'd be like, hey, this is a pretty cool way
to die.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Right. There's a really fun quote the floor the floor.
There's a really fun quote the very beginning of this
article on Sean and Travel. It said, there's a Buddha
in the cockpit. The orange robed icon looks on as
the pilot speedily executes a dramatic last minute turn to
land the A three nineteen on the slender runway. A
dozen passengers, some of whom have spent the last few
(41:34):
minutes white knuckling the seat armor res break out into applause.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, and it's fine to clap on that plane because
you're also getting flown by a celebrity. In aviation, even
now in twenty twenty four, there are only about fifty
pilots on the entire planet who are qualified to land
or take off from this place, so I would pause it.
If you land safely, you have already won ritual approval
(42:01):
from the Kingdom of the thunder Dragon.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I love it, man, what a fun episode. Ben, Thanks
for putting this one together. This is so interesting. I
didn't know any of this stuff, and maybe given the
slightly uncertain political moment that we're in here in the
United States, whatever your political persuasions are, this is not
a political show. Stuff like this is comforting. Man. I
have to say.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, just to check in, and I am so impressed
by his excellency, you know, the sheer balls to say
I want what's best for us, and it's so few
monarchs ever admit the lottery of birth right.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
So figure it out.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
If your friends are happy, if your people are happy.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
That is such a cool thing to do.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And you know what else is a very cool thing
tuning into this show ridiculous historians. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, so cool. Yeah, and a huge thanks again, Ben
for putting this brief together. This is a super fun
topic and I feel a little bit better after talking
about it with you. Oh Man, Bootney's cuisine. We didn't
have time to get to it. But buddy, all right,
we'll keep where I said, buddy, all right, it's a
good way. What are we talking here? Does it have
any connections to maybe cuisine i'd be aware of or similarities?
(43:17):
Oh geez, you're gonna love it. You're gonna love it.
And our pal Matt Frederick will love it too. Do
they do curries? What are we talking here? Come on,
we've got all right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So Bootney's cuisine is similar in some it's a transit point,
right because we've got Indian cuisine coming in. We've got
a certain kind of rice with a specifically unique nutty flavor,
and it's the only rice that can grow at that
elevation in the world. They love red chili's like love love.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And it looks like they actually do you know, a
little bit different from what Indian cuisine folks might be
familiar with. They do noodle dishes as well.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Mm hmm, yeah, they love a noodle dish. There's also
a lot of cheese, which got me back into the game,
and that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Is not something you typically associate with with the Asian cuisine.
I mean, you do have the delicious panier in Indian cuisine,
which I have become a big fan of in recent years.
But yeah, okay, I'm sold. Do we have Are there
any Botanese restaurants out on Buford Highway here in Atlanta?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
We're gonna have to get together and figure that one out.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
On You're out, Ben, You're right.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I think you're right too, Noel ed of course, big
big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big
big thanks to his bio bro Alex Williams, our resident composer.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Indeed huge thanks to Jonathan Strickland, The Quiz, the aj Bahamas, Jacobs,
the Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Big big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, big big
thanks to Eves, Jeff Coates and our pale Christopher hasiotis
here in spirit. And big big thanks Noel to you
and Max for agreeing with me to try to get
to BA Todd. We should we should write to accounting
now just get a hand of it.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
That'll be fine with it. We'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the
(00:27):
show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for
tuning in. We're so glad that you're here. If you're
hearing this the day it comes out, Welcome to November twelfth,
twenty twenty four. We're midway on the way to Thanksgiving
and we have a travel episode for you. Before we
do this, let us describe your three favorite companions for
(00:53):
a crazy, crazy international trip. First off, our super producer,
mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Woo who We're gonna climb some mountains.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Y'all sure?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Second, our main man here, known as the bag Man.
In some areas of the world, it's mister Noel Brown.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Give it up. They call me Bilbo Bagman. It's true.
In speaking of that, you know, when you ask this
question about, you know, traveling campaigns, I immediately my mind
goes to, like, who's my D and D party? What
are each individuals like superpower abilities.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
That will serve us on this quest? We need the specialties?
Yeah yeah, And it's your boy Ben Bowling our our
question today.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
This is something that's been.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
On our minds pretty often for years now. Noel, Max
and I have had conversations about a place called.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Bhutan, a magical place far away land land locked in fact,
country on the eastern ridges of the glorious Himalayas that
has been referred to by some as the last Shangri Law. Yes,
I haven't, Bye, we have not yet mounted this sojourn
yet though, have we been, because it's kind of hard to.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Get to Yeah, yeah, have you ever visited Bhutan? For
most people the answer is no, and Stade Statistically, if
you asked most of most Americans, we're Americans. If you
ask most of us to point to Boton on a map.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Couldn't do it. I could do if the name was
on there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, well that's why we make maps that way, history
of cartography.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It's aitty bitty though, right, And it's nestled amongst a
lot of much larger land masses, so it would now
you know, looking at it zoomed out, it's kind of
a spec You might not even be able to read
the text, Max.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Mm hm, you might just see it be and an h.
We also know to your point, Noel, that Bouton is,
as you said, high up in the heavens of the Himalayas.
It's nestled between Tibet, which is controlled by China, and
nestled between any Quebet, which, yeah, which already.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
It's nineteen ninety five all over it.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And China and India are two of the biggest up
and coming countries in the world. They're going places, don't
you think, I you know what I I think it's
part of my different job if I say anything about it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
But yeah, yeah, sorry, no worries.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Back in twenty twenty one, we spoke about Baton briefly
referring to we had an episode on what Weird Courtship Rituals,
and we talked about the Bhutanese practice of night hunting.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Oh, I don't remember night hunting. That sounds a little scary.
This is a courtship practice. Sounds a little hunger gamez
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
This is a travel episode because Noel Max, we're journeying
back to Batan because there is a different, odd, wholesome
aspect of this country as well, which has been described
as ridiculous by certain outsiders. But we're we're kind of
into it. It's the only Vajiana Buddhist nation in the world,
(04:14):
and for a lot of people it's a dream destination,
but it's pretty tough to get there.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, it is. But that dream that is kept
alive in Bhutan is in no small part due to
how they measure the success of their country much much,
much differently than we do here for certain in the
United States. Rather than monetary measures, they're looking a little
(04:39):
more inward. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, Bhutan does not graid its success as a country.
And to your point earlier in Bhutan is not a
big country by any means. It has a population about
eight hundred thousand in twenty twenty four. It decided at
some point not to create it success in terms of
gross domestic product, in terms of economic output. Instead, they
(05:08):
hung out and back in the nineteen seventies they said,
maybe we should define success for our country by how
happy the people living in it are.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that sounds nice. Let's get into this and how
this works. After a quick cold open bring and we've returned.
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
The land we call Bhuton today was inhabited by humans
as early as two thousand BCE. But as we were
talking about off air, we still don't know a lot
about its ancient origins. So, uh, Noel, maybe you and
I can give people just the high level. That's funny
because it's a high elevation country.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Success. Oh man, there's apparently this movie this dropped recently
called Elevation. That's a total ripoff of a quiet place.
But the kind of the inverse where it's these monsters
that cannot exist at high elevation. So Bhutan would be
spared from the apocalypse brought on by the creatures in
this apparently quite hacky creature feature. That's that's out in
the theater soon. But yeah, it's true. Ben Buddhism was
(06:17):
first introduced to the people of Bhutan in the seventh
century AD, when Tibetan king's Songsten Gompo reigned from six
twenty seven to six forty nine, converted to Buddhism and
extended the Tibetan Empire into the area that empire he
already controlled. So I mean, is this this is It's
easy to in a footnote of history say extended the
Tibetan Empire, but that would be by way of conquest, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, it wasn't a cool zoom meeting.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Right. He didn't just pop over and said, yeah, come
join us.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, they didn't say he made some good points. No,
this was the old story of historical conquest, blood and treasure.
We know by the tenth century, Bhuton's adoption of Buddhism
had a significant impact on its political development. It's always
(07:08):
been a theocracy from that point. And locally, what's curious
going to our point about how we don't know much
about the providence of Bhutan. Locally, it's been known by
many names. The first Europeans to get over there were
Portuguese and they were Jesuits.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Classic. Oh, and if you really want to see a
cool depiction of some of these types of individuals who
you know were off in the front lines of exploration
and conquest, check out Showgun, the FX series. There's a
whole plot involving like Portuguese Jesuits.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yes, yeah, And the Portuguese Jesuits that reached bhutand this
occurs in sixteen twenty seven. They were Estevao, Casella and
dal Cabral and they talk to other people and surrounding areas,
and whenever they asked about what we call Bhutan today,
(08:06):
people would say, oh, that's the Canberrasaci, whether Potente or
the mall. It really depended on who you asked. As
far as what name.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
That you got, well, and that makes sense because until
the early seventeenth century they really existed as this kind
of loose connection of fiefdoms that were under the control
of different kind of I don't know, warlords or whatever
you might want to call them, but they did not
get along with each other, so there really wasn't much
unity to speak of. That unity did eventually come when
the Tibetan lama and military leader Nawang Yam y'all, who
(08:41):
had actually fled from religious persecution in Tibet, showed up
and basically unified these warring clans I guess you could
call them, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And he built this network of impregnable fortresses they're call
zongs dzo ngs. The most famous kind of example of
this architecture is the Tiger's Nest. So look that up
with your favorite recreational vice of choice and prepare to
(09:11):
learn really cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
This guy.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
This guy helmed the building of these fortresses and then
also set forth a code of law that, to your point,
Noel unified these other fiefdoms altogether. And here's a crazy
conspiracy for you, folks. When Gahweang Namgau died in sixteen
(09:35):
fifty one, the unified government was so important and so
fragile that his successors decided to just not tell anyone
the leader died for fifty four years.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You know, if they had had camera phones and the
internet back then, they wouldn't have been able to keep
a lit on this, even though they probably didn't wouldn't
get good reception up there in them hills. But yeah,
you think about the ability to keep a secret like
that by today's standards, and it's just kind of mind
boggling that they were able to do that. Yeah, Like,
did they just tell him? He'll get back to you.
(10:12):
You know. Anyway, you can't turn on the computer without
finding a spoiler for your favorite TV show, let alone
that the leader of a free nation died, right.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, And we still don't know a ton of early
history of Butad because most of the records were sadly
destroyed in a fire that ravaged the ancient capital back
in eighteen twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
That's right. Then, in nineteen oh seven, which is kind
of a big year, a red letter year for the country,
when Wang Chuk was chosen unanimously as the hereditary king
of the country by the Lengye Shog of leading Buddhist monks.
I imagine the len Ye Shog is a particular title,
(10:58):
like a high level official within this order of Buddhist monks, right,
which was also in control of the government. Right.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, there's no discernible separation of church and state in this,
which would make it arguably a theocracy. The person you're mentioning,
Wang Chuk got the coside of the leader of the
Buddhist monks, very powerful force, the local government officials, the
heads of every rich family. This is the basis of
(11:28):
modern Bhuton today. And there have been some interesting and
sometimes inspiring plot twist along the way, especially that time
they said, Hey, why is the rest of the world
so stressed about this money thing? Does money really make
you happy? This is where we enter the wholesome, ridiculous
(11:52):
history part of the episode nol Gross National Happiness.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I mean, it's when going over this material and digging
a little further into it on my own, you start
to look at this and almost it seems like it
would be immediately mocked by certain capitalist forces, you know,
or just by folks that are running the government like
here in the United States, like the idea that anything
(12:19):
other than constant year over year, monetary growth is the
way to measure success. Would be found to be absurd
by these types of folks and worthy of mockery. Like
I could picture certain individuals, you know, pundits or whatever,
just absolutely dragging something like this or a country like this,
and say, how could you even possibly think like this?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Right here in the West, in the United States in particular,
and in a lot of other industrialized nations, the idea
of happiness is equated with money. There's a New York
Times article that explores this in a fascinating way, where
in the journalist notes economists as your consumer confidence on
(13:01):
the assumption that the resulting figure says something about progress
and public welfare. The gross domestic product or GDP is
routinely used as shorthand for the well being of a nation.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
But Noel, we've.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Talked about this off air. I've talked about this with Max,
and economy can be doing gangbusters and the people in
the place where the economy is doing well can be
having horrible lives.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's just a misnomer. I mean, I'm sorry, We're not
here to soapbox about any of this kind of stuff.
And you know, to quote Biggie, more money, more problems.
I mean, that's absolutely true. And the older you get
and the more you start to maybe come into a
career or whatever, the expectations is to continue to rise.
And given our position kind of in this system that
(13:49):
we're talking about here in the US, you start to
kind of judge yourself against that GDP and judge yourself
against these expectations of wealth. And if you're not careful,
you spend your entire life, you know, and the more
money you have, the more you want to have more,
the more you want to be like the next guy.
And that isn't happiness. I'm sorry, it's just not what
happiness is. In fact, it's misery.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Gotta watch Apocalypto. They have a thing about this anyway.
So yes, I think we're raising good points. The Kingdom
of Bhutad is not trying to be a huge expansionist empire. Instead,
gross national happiness, which is sometimes called gross domestic happiness.
It's a philosophy that currently guides the government. What it
(14:33):
means essentially is this, the country has decided to eschew
or throw away the traditional economic metrics, and they said,
you know what, we're going to figure out our country's
vibe based on how much everybody wins, how we develop
(14:54):
socioeconomic equitable situation, how do we conserve the environment, how
do we preserve and promote our culture, how do we
make sure our government is not corrupt. That's a checklist
of cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, win for one is a win for all. And
I know what a lot of folks might be thinking, like,
is this vaguely communist or vaguely socialists And it's not
exactly real own thing, right, Like really, yeah, it's super interesting.
So I mean to the government of Bhutan, it's simple.
In two thousand and nine, the leader his eminence the
(15:28):
rin Pouchet, which is a big deal. This is this
like spiritual kind of the idea of a reincarnated spiritual
like the king of the monks, right, his eminence Ked
Drupchen ren Puschet, the fifth ree incarnate and head the
sang Chen again Suklach Monastery. Again, very much a theocracy.
And you were doing a great job with these prefaciations,
(15:49):
doing my best. That's in Troungsta, Bhutan. He actually became
the youngest ever ren puschet or spiritual leader spiritual master
in the history of Bhutan at only nineteen years old.
So that was a big deal in and of itself. And
it would seem that he put his money where his
mouth is, or vice my mouth where his money would go,
and we're going to get rid of money. I don't know,
it's a bad metaphor, but he really wanted to practice
(16:14):
what he preached on a large scale in terms of, like,
how can we separate ourselves from some of the more
you know, secular trappings and things that are ultimately can
be negative for people's mental well being and focus a
little bit more on kind of a holistic approach to
mental and spiritual health.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I uyeah, yeah, one hundred percent nailed it. He was
a or is a liaison to the larger world outside
of Baton, and to these guys, this is a very
simple thing. It's just quote a set of collective conditions
that is generally needed to live a good life. And look,
(16:55):
everybody outside of Baton, we live in a world that
is just chock full of complicated governmental economic policies. To
put things so simply sounds refreshing. But how did they
get there? How does this idea of quantifying happiness works?
(17:15):
To answer that? To like, answer even where it comes from.
We have to go back to nineteen seventy two, which
technically means this is within our purview.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Right, Yeah, it's more beautiful. Well, the story and the
origin of Bhutan as well within our perduc okay, but yeah,
as a nation. But you're right, it's crazy how modern
this this concept is. So let's travel back to nineteen
seventy two together Bhutan's newly crowned leader, King Yigme. See,
I'm getting all the pronunciations today. King Jigme Singye wang
(17:48):
Chuk was very much pondering this conundrum, you know, of
how when you focus on economic growth exclusively as a
measure of the success of your nation, you're kind of
ignoring your citizens actual well being and your citizen's actual happiness.
Because he kind of clocked what we've both been screaming
(18:09):
this whole time that I just think that GDP to
happiness quot shent is absolutely out of whack.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, sorry, economists, and his excellency studied abroad. He went
to different parts of the world, and he felt like
he was seeing the same thing over and over again.
People would say, Oh, the GDP is great, Oh the
economy is increasing, but when he walked the streets right
(18:40):
when he saw the people on the ground, he saw
countless cases of environmental degradation, he saw startling inequality, and yes,
if you're wondering, he did that part of his education
in India, and he saw war and he saw crime proliferating,
and he said, you know what we need, Bhutad. We
(19:00):
need to ensure that any prosperity our country encounters is
shared across society. That's the only sustainable way to do it.
We need to preserve the cultural traditions, the things that
make us Bhutanese. We got to protect our environment. And
if people say to the government that there is a problem,
(19:21):
we need a government to respond without corruption. And from
nineteen seventy two, he's still in school when he cooks
up this idea. He's the guy who coins the term
gross national happiness. From nineteen seventy two all the way
to another plot twist. He spends the next decades trying
to just do that.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Yeah, and it kind of catches on beyond his country.
You know, there's a really great New York Times piece
that came out in two thousand and five by Andrew C. Revkin.
And Revkin had this to say about it. Around the world,
a growing number of economists, social scienceists, corporate leaders, and
bureaucrats are trying to develop a measurement that takes into
(20:04):
account not just the flow of money, but also access
to healthcare, free time with family, conservation of natural resources,
and other non economic factors. Been does this sound familiar? Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Think our buddy may have been ahead of his time.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So what we're showing you here is even economists that
are largely disconnected from the inner world of Bhutan or
the wider spiritual world of Buddhism, they heard this philosophy
and they said, yeah, maybe there's something missing, so much
so that in two thousand and five, four hundred people
(20:40):
from a dozen plus countries got together in Nova Scotia
for a conference where they said, let's try to reimagine
the dismal science of economics. And also that is the
street name for the study of economies. It's called the
dismal science.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Are you serious? I am so serious. That's incredible. That's
why I didn't pursue it. I had no idea is
that that? Yeah? Wow, okay, that so much makes sense now.
But this included in that four hundred three dozen representatives
from Ding Ding Ding, Bhutan, including monks, government officials, teachers,
(21:19):
and others you know involved in this kind of you know,
philosophy of measuring a country's success by the happiness of
its citizens. Imagine that the idea of building a content
fulfilled and happy and equitable society.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, oh, and don't get it twisted. We have to
put this part in. The people of Bhutan are by
a large not rich at all. While household incomes in
Bhutan are still amid the world's lowest, especially if you
look at GDP bup bup bup, bup up up. We
(21:57):
know that the policies enacted under the idea prioritizing happiness
have resulted in higher quality of life, in higher life expectancy.
From nineteen eighty four to nineteen ninety eight, just a
little more than a decade, life expectancy increased by nineteen years.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
And you might be thinking, well, as history progresses, life
expectancy does tend to go up. But this, I think
we could all argue, is even outside of the norm
of you know, maybe what would just happen organically by
the availability of medicine and medical technology and things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, it's stunning, It is astonishing, and the country is
still extremely strict about development. At least sixty to seventy two.
I think seventy two percent of its country remains forested.
It does welcome a limited supply of wealthy tourists. We'll
(22:59):
talk about it at the end because I'm going to
try to pitch you with Max and going with me.
And it makes money by exporting hydro power to India
because it's up in the mountains, you know, it's got
that glacial connect.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, but you know, I think the focus here, or
the takeaway is that the incredible prioritization of their natural
resources and their history and the you know, beauty of
their country. Ben you mentioned I think it was called
the Tiger's Nest at the top, which is one of
those fortified situations, you know, that one of the early
rulers of the country, you know, focused on. They're literally
(23:34):
these gorgeous kind of I don't know I'm saying Pagoda
esque type structures because that's just what I liken them too.
But they're mounted like on the sides of these incredible
steep cliff sides, and it's an absolute marvel of engineering
in and of itself, and that's the kind of stuff
that they're not gonna let people mess with, you know.
(23:54):
And you can't hike that trail, you know, up the mountain.
It's called the Tigers Nests and it's like very difficult
pass to hike. But you see all this beautiful stuff
that is an example of the way they preserve their
history and their their natural you know features.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
And despite what longtime listeners may know about me as
an entity, I love monasteries. Have you gone to the
monastery in Conyers.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
We've talked about it that I've got to, we got
we got to, and I really want to. Next.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Do you want to go with us to a monastery?
I promise there will be no hot air balloons.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
We'll even provide a mantra for you.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Oh yeah, I'm totally doing a monastor. Actually a few
months back, when I was in New York, I was
sitting Noel texts photos.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I was in Uh.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
My friends really wanted to go to the Lego store,
which I was like, okay, and I was like, I
don't want a Lego store. In right across street was
a giant cathedral. The Giant Cathedral, which was the most
capitalistic place I went in all of New York, the
Lego store, the cathedral, so much more capitalistic. It was like, yeah,
(24:58):
one can years ago everything with all.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
That money goes directly to God, though, and I forgive
you for not texting me as well.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
That is the spirit of Buddhism.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
But the Catholic Monastery Our Lady of the Holy Spirit
out in Conyers is great.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Get to go visit if you have a chance.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
They're not going to try to proselytize with you. They've
got also an awesome Bondzeye Museum. The Tiger's Nest in
the local language is Pero Taksong. So this becomes the
official goal. Gross national happiness becomes the official goal of
the government of Bhutan in the enshrine it in the
(25:39):
Constitution which has enacted on July eighteenth, two thousand and eight.
So from nineteen seventy two to two thousand and eight,
the king who had this epiphany has been working ardently
(26:01):
toward this goal. And look for the more cynical amid us.
This may sound like a performative political thing.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
This is where we get to another I think very
wholesome piece of ridiculous history, it's neat.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
It's kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So the leaders of Bhutad and the king this is
still pretty much an absolute monarchy until two thousand and eight.
They evaluate happiness through multiple lenses and they get to
the idea of what government makes people or gives them
the best chance for happiness, and they say, let's try democracy,
(26:40):
and no, I think this stood out to both of us.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
The people did not love the idea now, and that's
why it's a really complicated thing. Immediately you're like, Okay,
that's unusual, but it is sort of there's multiple ways
to look at it where it's like, on the one hand,
you could argue that maybe they were just so you
to existing under a under that form of government that
(27:04):
they were kind of spooked. But then you can also
look at it as like it was just working for
them and they believed in the benevolence of their leader,
because like, dictatorships are only I think truly bad when
the leader is corrupt, you know, and there's no real
focus on the people. But it would seem that their
king really did care about the people and made choices
(27:27):
that directly benefited the people. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, the people of Bhutah. The Bhutanese were super on
board with this. They loved the king, as this is
a religious figure. The king is the one who came
to the folks and said, all right, we're going to
try out democracy in some form technically constitutional monarchy, and
(27:51):
this tested his otherwise absolute rule. If you look at
news reports of the time, you'll see that people in Bhutah,
like you said, Dol, we're apprehensive, they were reluctant to
embrace this. And I love that you're pointing out context
here because if we go to an interview with the
country's first democratically elected prime minister, who's got a really
(28:14):
interesting name, it feels part Bhutanese and for some reason
part Victorian England.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
A little bit. Yeah me, why Thinley? Why Thinley? I
don't know if that's very unusual.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
We've got a response from him in a long form
interview he had with the Council on Foreign Relations where
he was put in a weird situation where as one
of the first democratically elected officials, he had to explain
why the country was maybe not super on board with
democracy and the visa Keen.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
It's also like, I mean not to be too I
already kind of get it. I mean, look at how
democracy works in other parts of the country and also
in that region. So many failed democracies I could totally
get on with thinking that maybe it was not the
best experiment to try, right and you know, and he
put it this way, we'll break it up. Like you said,
(29:08):
the people were not keen on bringing the kind of
change that, in their eyes and in their mind could
not be very different from what they saw in the
world at large, and in particular in our neighboring countries
in South Asia.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
In many of the countries than they continues, democracy had
failed or was in the process of failing, and leading
to tremendous upheavals strife among the people.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
In some cases, they have seen so much violence that
people felt that under the benevolent rule of a king
who was so very popular, who was revered, loved and
adore by the people, they had the.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Best and they were not about to give up the
best that they had for somebody that, as I said,
could perhaps not be different from what they saw.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Elsewhere one percent. And he goes on. So they were anxious,
but the king prevailed over them, saying that even though
the final choice must be theirs. They must realize that
the king becomes the leader only by the accident of
birth boom boom boom, the accident of birth bens and
not by merit or virtue. He's literally pointing out, like
to the people under a monarchy, the problems with a
(30:14):
monarchy of which he himself is the beneficiary, right, the
leader goes on, and that to place the future of
a country in the hands of such a person is
not in the long term interest of the country.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Now, can you give me some raucous applaws?
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I love that quote. Now, guys, if you want to
pick me, you know, as your leader. I mean, I'm
not saying this from an opportunistic standpoint. I'm more than
willing to serve, just not as your king. You know.
That's what he said. Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
And as a guy who, as you know, based on
my past centuries, I am very anti monarchy, I just
want to take a moment and appreciate how wholesomely ridiculous
this is. The people are saying they don't want democracy,
the king who could make them do that instead does
way of open hand, and it's like, hey, just to
(31:08):
be honest, I was just born in this position, you
know what I mean, technically anybody could have been king.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
He is a benevolence dictator in a way.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, He's like, we've got to all be part of
this experiment for it to work in the long term.
It's a topsy turvy situation because historically most kings commit
great acts of violence upon their subjects just to maintain
their power. And this guy is saying, hey, we're all cool,
let's try let's try to make this a long term thing.
(31:42):
I mean, Bhutan is certainly not a perfect place by
any means. There are great concerns about the treatment of
the Nepalese population. But the courage that exhibits in questioning
a fundamental assumption of the modern world that money means happiness.
We know science proves money does not equate to happiness
(32:04):
after a certain threshold of income, but it gains the
rest of the world something to think about. And all
the conversation is continuing today at the World Economic Forum,
at the CFR, at all the you know, the big
the big movers and shakers. Internationally, it's it's happening at
the United Nations, and we have to wonder, could this
(32:26):
only work in a very small, isolated place high in
the Himalaya, the so called Kingdom of Heaven, or just
maybe could something like gross domestic happiness also make life
a little better for all of us schmucks down here
off the mountain.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
You know, Ben, we just had a big election here
in this country, and I'm really hoping that they go
the gross domestic happiness route. Wouldn't that be cool? I'm
I'm choosing to be optimistic about.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
This, all right, We got a ven diagram. I'm a
nihilistic optimist.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Okay, cool, you mean in the middle somewhere there we go.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
So this is a story that we found uplifting. There's
much more to the story. We'd like to end it
with just some quick tangents in trivia about a country
will hopefully get to travel to one day.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
That's right. In addition to the what is it the
Last Changri law, it also has a really cool nickname,
the Land of the thunder Dragon boom boom boom boom. Yeah,
he say, isn't exactly as menacing as it seems. That
it's not a Kaiju size, you know, Godzilla esque creature,
(33:37):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's like going to a town where they have a
mascot that's everywhere. The thunder dragon is in architecture, It's
depicted in art. You see it on the nation's flag.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Drook is what it's known as colloquially, that's the official name.
I believe it's it's actually part of their mythology, not
an actual living creature at all. No, it's more like,
I mean, you know, it's based on science. Maybe they
exist within the lore and the context of their belief system.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, they're home to a ton of endangered animals too,
so this would be a cool place to try to
catch a cryptid if you're on board. There are no
traffic lights in Bhutad at all. If you go to
the current capital, Timpo, then you'll see there is a
there's like a decorated stand where traffic police manually direct traffic,
(34:36):
similar to North Korea.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Like the lollipop men, you know, and in the UK. Yeah,
I was about to say, is it just like the
honor system ben like as far as zoo goes when
and is this a product of maybe they don't have
the kind of modern, you know, traffic build up that
we see in other parts of the world. It seems yeah,
way dangerous, way fewer cars that would makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Also the national sport following up on our earlier sports
phase is archery. It's not the kind of archery you're
thinking about. It's a big deal. If you have the
privilege to visit Bhutan. Pretty much any family you meet
is going to have a bow and arrow set and
they will properly drop everything if you want to go
(35:20):
learn archery.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
How is it different than maybe the Olympic kind of
versions of archery that we might be aware of. I
know archery is also real big in like Korea. Yeah, yeah,
it's in Bhutan.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
It has a religious significance and social significance. Also, the
targets are placed differently than they would be in the Olympics.
I still can't believe the cryptid point. I wasn't even
thinking about this man until we just started talking about it.
With over seventy percent of the land covered by forest.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Forested, yeah, way of the same with India. We just
did an episode recently and stuff that I want you
to know about the cryptids of India, And a big
reason for that possibility is how how much impassable you
know forest there is and how much opportunity there might
be for something to exist kind of under the radar,
and it's very similar here in Bhutan.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, it's also we've heard of carbon neutral countries. Bhuton
is a carbon negative country. They make, you know, they
make the average amount of CO two that you would expect,
but their forest ground captures all of it, so it's
(36:30):
actually eating carbon from other parts of the environment. Bhuton
is better for better for the global environment.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
That's because they don't mow down the forests. That's that's
a whole part of their philosophy, and they're governing principles
to not do that kind of thing and not to
prioritize industry over you know, the kinds of things that
will hopefully help preventing global catastrophe. They listen to the Lorex, right,
I always listen to Lorax.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
There is one thing I wanted to surprise surprise you
guys with which might not be familiar to everyone. Just
if you get to chance to travel to Bata and
first off, send us photos, we love that. Secondly, you're
gonna see a lot of penis artwork.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Ah. Still, I'm down with that. There, Yeah, I'm down
with that.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, Flanking doorways, hanging off rooftops painted on homes in
window displays.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
You had me at penis artwork. Yeah he didn't. You
needn't say no more, Ben, I was.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I was on the fence, like all the climbing stuff
and then penis artwork.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
I'm in. You had me a penis BND and you
had me a penis. You had me a pen It's
I'm in the say no more, say less. It's also
highly regulated or illegal to smoke, right, isn't that the thing?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
It was the first nation in the world to ban
tobacco for a while until the pandemic kicked in and
a lot of smuggling happened over the border. Uh so
now it's tightly controlled.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
And well, I think that's interesting. I think all of
us here ridiculous history aren't the biggest proponents of outright
prohibition because we know that it just leads to smuggling.
It just leads to black market stuff, which leads to crime.
And I just think, so this is to me is
a little short sighted. You know, I guess maybe coming
from a good place, but it's it's tough. You know,
(38:23):
no one we're going to stop their vices just because
the government tells them. Max has a cigar that would.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Probably the cigar away.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
I will be very you can prime Max's cigar from
his cold dead hand for one CS a year. Okay,
wonder you're on record. It's fine, but I have but
I just have three in a drawer.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
It's uh, this is where we learn to that point.
Bhuton is definitely a work in progress.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
It's been a dream country of mine to visit for
many years. It hasn't worked out yet. Visiting Bhuton is
quite expensive. Just getting over there is expensive, and if
you are American, you have to pay.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
It used to be two one hundred a day. It
used to be higher.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Now it's about one hundred dollars a night every twenty
four hours just to be there, just to be there
as an American, not counting hotel.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But is it also affordable though? Like is are the
hotel fees? I know a lot of times in Asian
countries is expensive to get there, But then the you
know the actual cost of staying for a while or
not too bad? I hope we find out together. I
would like to. Yeah, sounds like a real great idea.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
The visa is only forty bucks a pop. That's great,
that's actually not too crazy, but we will have to
I know not all of us are fans of flying
or heights. We will have to be ready to fly
into one of the world's most difficult airports.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Okay, difficult, how like narrow like perhaps some mountain I mean,
we know it's mountainous. You probably have to come in
for a landing between some crazy peaks.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
I gotta link here from CNN from our pale little
at Marcus where you can see what it looks like.
There's one landing airway or runway. There's one takeoff. They're
both very short. You called it man, there are this
is between two eighteen thousand foot peaks. When you're landing
(40:21):
at the very last minute, just to make it in,
you have to take this crazy, this crazy turn.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Dog leg turn. I'm seeing like I got a gift
on the CNN travel site that shows you from the
cockpit perspective, and it is serious manure. It's a make
your peace with God stuff. It's show jumping here real quick.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, I just want to say, like you know, as
it's been staying on the show, I'm not the biggest
fan of flying.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I've gotten better about it. I'm also not a fan
of heights, but like.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
This is terrifying, but it's also like super cool that
I would do it.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
And I vote Philip J. Fry. This is a cool
way to die. Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I That's what I say with whomever we're sitting next
to in the plane. I'm like, hey, good news. Though,
right before we hit the turn and have to grab
our beat me here, have to grab our ocean handles,
I'd be like, hey, this is a pretty cool way
to die.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Right. There's a really fun quote the floor the floor.
There's a really fun quote the very beginning of this
article on Sean and Travel. It said, there's a Buddha
in the cockpit. The orange robed icon looks on as
the pilot speedily executes a dramatic last minute turn to
land the A three nineteen on the slender runway. A
dozen passengers, some of whom have spent the last few
(41:34):
minutes white knuckling the seat armor res break out into applause.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, and it's fine to clap on that plane because
you're also getting flown by a celebrity. In aviation, even
now in twenty twenty four, there are only about fifty
pilots on the entire planet who are qualified to land
or take off from this place, so I would pause it.
If you land safely, you have already won ritual approval
(42:01):
from the Kingdom of the thunder Dragon.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I love it, man, what a fun episode. Ben, Thanks
for putting this one together. This is so interesting. I
didn't know any of this stuff, and maybe given the
slightly uncertain political moment that we're in here in the
United States, whatever your political persuasions are, this is not
a political show. Stuff like this is comforting. Man. I
have to say.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, just to check in, and I am so impressed
by his excellency, you know, the sheer balls to say
I want what's best for us, and it's so few
monarchs ever admit the lottery of birth right.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
So figure it out.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
If your friends are happy, if your people are happy.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
That is such a cool thing to do.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
And you know what else is a very cool thing
tuning into this show ridiculous historians. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, so cool. Yeah, and a huge thanks again, Ben
for putting this brief together. This is a super fun
topic and I feel a little bit better after talking
about it with you. Oh Man, Bootney's cuisine. We didn't
have time to get to it. But buddy, all right,
we'll keep where I said, buddy, all right, it's a
good way. What are we talking here? Does it have
any connections to maybe cuisine i'd be aware of or similarities?
(43:17):
Oh geez, you're gonna love it. You're gonna love it.
And our pal Matt Frederick will love it too. Do
they do curries? What are we talking here? Come on,
we've got all right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So Bootney's cuisine is similar in some it's a transit point,
right because we've got Indian cuisine coming in. We've got
a certain kind of rice with a specifically unique nutty flavor,
and it's the only rice that can grow at that
elevation in the world. They love red chili's like love love.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And it looks like they actually do you know, a
little bit different from what Indian cuisine folks might be
familiar with. They do noodle dishes as well.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Mm hmm, yeah, they love a noodle dish. There's also
a lot of cheese, which got me back into the game,
and that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Is not something you typically associate with with the Asian cuisine.
I mean, you do have the delicious panier in Indian cuisine,
which I have become a big fan of in recent years.
But yeah, okay, I'm sold. Do we have Are there
any Botanese restaurants out on Buford Highway here in Atlanta?
Speaker 1 (44:21):
We're gonna have to get together and figure that one out.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
On You're out, Ben, You're right.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I think you're right too, Noel ed of course, big
big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big
big thanks to his bio bro Alex Williams, our resident composer.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Indeed huge thanks to Jonathan Strickland, The Quiz, the aj Bahamas, Jacobs,
the Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Big big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, big big
thanks to Eves, Jeff Coates and our pale Christopher hasiotis
here in spirit. And big big thanks Noel to you
and Max for agreeing with me to try to get
to BA Todd. We should we should write to accounting
now just get a hand of it.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
That'll be fine with it. We'll see you next time, folks.
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Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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