July 5, 2022 • 34 mins
The guys took a day off to celebrate the 4th of July -- and what better time to share a classic episode about another (very strange) form of patriotism? At the close the US Civil War, tens of thousands of former Confederate families fled the US for a small city in Brazil, where they sought to continue living as they had in the days before the war. Tune in to learn more about the strange history of Americana, Brazil.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so
much as always for tuning in. Let's get a skirt
sound effect or record scratch or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's
our one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. They
called me Ben my ride or dime. Mr Noel Brown
(00:22):
is currently out, but we'll return it later this week. Max.
It's the day after July four, So happy fourth of
July to all who celebrate. How is your weekend? Man?
It was? It was amazing. I just kind of took
it really easy. Watched a lot of baseball and did
not play Eldin Ring. I played a better video game
called skym Now you know. I I love them both,
(00:45):
you know. And it was funny because I almost I
almost texted you over the weekend because July four, you know,
a bunch of people celebrated that here in the U S.
That's this country's in dependence stay and we took a
day off. So we have a classic episode coming today.
(01:06):
But I thought thematically, this line's up pretty pretty well
in a surprising way. We're talking about patriotism of a sort,
uh for for not the current United States, but what's
known as the Confederacy from a little thing called the
(01:26):
American Civil War. The other people, the people who didn't
win that thing, right, right, But we're not talking about
a celebration that occurs in the US. As a matter
of fact, today's classic takes us down south, past the Confederacy,
or past the historical home and the Confederacy all the
(01:49):
way to Brazil. Now, Um, Max, I think this episode
came before you had joined the team, so you might
be listening along with us on this one. Huh. Yeah,
this is a about two years before I joined the team,
maybe three years so yeah, this is all new to
me and I'm excited to hear about it. Oh wow,
how long have we been doing this show? Well, we
(02:10):
hope you enjoy this when folks, this was a fascinating
story for Nolan myself and it's it's a wild ride.
Heads up, we can't wait to hear your thoughts. Yeah,
and make sure to tune in Thursday because we have
an exciting episode about government cover ups, chemicals and St. Louis.
Lots of fun stuff there. And one last personal note. Today,
(02:34):
the day this comes out is ji which is officially
my dad's birthday. So happy New Year dad. Um also, wait,
I shouldn't have said officially that that sounds sketchy. It's
it's his real birthday, Max, it's his real birth al. Right,
here we go. Ridiculous History is a production of I
(02:57):
Heart Radio. Hello, welcome to the show. I'm Ben. Oh, Hey,
(03:31):
I'm sorry, it's me. It's no, it's no. I'm here.
I'm here, I'm paying attention, and we're gonna talk about
some ridiculous history. Yes, and I believe that was a
beautiful snatch of song there, only it would be more like, Uh,
I wish I was in Brazil. Hooray, hooray in brazil Land,
gonna make my stand to live and die in Brazil. Yes,
(03:53):
that's true. And you may be wondering, Ben Noal super
producer Casey pegramon, what do these things have in common?
What does that? Uh? What does that series of hypnotic
sensual music? Thank you? Yeah, look at look at me.
(04:13):
I'm just a cloud of cotton candy and you're just
the milk of human kindness. We are delving into something
that uh that that we were hipped to via our
friends Mangesh and will Over at Part Time Genius, one
of our Pure podcast They had an episode recently called
(04:34):
what's the most American place in the world parentheses outside
of the United States. Yeah, and one of the things
that came up time and time again were the various
Disneyland theme park attractions all across the globe. In fact,
in a sten study by Branding Magazine, around five thousand
people Americans were asked of which two d forty brands
(04:57):
best personified the patriotists of the United States and associated
the Disney brand with US patriotism. But that is not
what our show is about today, because for truly bizarro
unusual taste of Americana outside of the US soil, We're
going to head for Do Do Do Do Do Do
(05:18):
Do Do Do do do umbras Yes, my friends, specifically
to the Brazilian state of South Polo. Uh. You see,
in South Polo there is a town, a not insignificant
town in terms of population, a city of about two
hundred and thirty thousand people called Americana. See we we
(05:43):
set it up earlier. This is true, and this city
um welcomed somewhere between. According to various accounts, ten thousand
and twenty thousand American Southerners after the Confederates lost the
Civil War in the at eighteen hundreds. Yeah, when the
American Confederacy lost the bloody dispute known as the Civil
(06:07):
War here in the US in May of eighteen sixty five.
War between the States, the War between the States, Brother
against brother Blue v. Gray, all that stuff. A contingent
of these Southerners fled the United States entirely seeking to
rebuild their lives and carry on the cultures to which
(06:29):
they were accustomed. And we do want to warn, of course,
that this is not all rainbow glitter trumpets and angel farts,
as we will see angel farts. Yeah, you know, I'm
just including things that people probably like. You know, I
went to a store with my kid over the weekend
and she but she's really in the slime, and she
bought the slime called unicorn farts. We're done talking about
(06:52):
farts now. Now we're going to talk about the settlers
and where they came from, which was mainly Alabama, Georgia,
and Texas. And they, as Ben said, to preserve their
unreconstructed Southern way of life and also escape possible prosecution
for treason, no big deal war crimes. Yeah. Uh, In
(07:12):
this movement. This group movement occurs due primarily to a
fellow named William Hutchison Norris. He is the founder of
this town American of Brazil, uh and he was a
Mexican American War veteran and also an Alabama senator. He
is the one who led the charge along with thirty
(07:33):
Confederate families. Believe he was a colonel, right, yeah, I
believe so, and he was. He was also just a
side note here for anyone interested in some fringe history. Uh.
He was a grand Master of the Alabama Masonic Lodge,
which is not important to this story, but one of those.
Oh not to be confused with a grand wizard. No no,
(07:56):
no Alabama. Good luck planning, right and not that we
are inflating, No no, no never, We would never and
I mean that we would never. We actually we co
host a conspiracy realist podcast called Stuff They Don't Want
You to Know where if you want to hear more
about Illuminati and the like and Masonic rights, check out
that show. But yeah, so, Colonel Norris actually established this
(08:19):
colony in a town currently known as Santa Barbara d
este uh and it was actually sometimes referred to as
the Norris colony. And the reason that these uh Confederatos
as they were ultimately referred to as, decided to make
that trip was because Brazil offered cheap land and slavery
(08:42):
was still legal. That's yeah, That's one of the key
things here. So a lot of the people moving were
agricultural experts, right. Brazil offered cheap land and of incentives essentially, yeah,
and an Agrica cultural system with which these families were
(09:02):
unfortunately very familiar, which was of course the use of
slave labor. And at the time Brazil had an emperor,
a fellow named dom Pedro two, and he didn't just
you know, turnal blind eye as these families moved in.
He wanted them there so much so that he offered
to pay moving costs, which you know, I like the
(09:24):
way Nol says it. Uh. The idea is essentially like
tax incentives. I think the cheap land came as an incentive.
It was to entice these new settlers. And also Don
Pedro the second was a an ally I guess you
could say, of the Confederate cause. So he saw this
as an opportunity to get new types of agricultural expertise
(09:47):
I guess in his country one of those crops was cotton,
which as we know, is very important staple crop in
the American South, and Brazilian farmers started to take up
these new farming methods that they were taught more or
less by the American settlers, the Confederatos, right, And this
all begins to happen very quickly after the close of
(10:11):
the Civil War. By eighteen sixty six, the region was
becoming noticeably populated with these immigrants from the United States.
And we should add that not all of them found success.
There were thousands of people who accepted this deal, but
only one group of settlers from Alabama, Norris is you know, Cadre,
(10:36):
for lack of a better word, thrived And these uh,
these folks had surnames that you can find in the
town today like baired We got Buford, Clark, and Curry,
among others. There's actually a memorial there to this day
that highlights of these names like Sanders, Seawright, Skurlock, Smith, Stiegel, Strong, Tanner.
(10:59):
And again this all falls under them the serenity of
the Suzeranity of Norris. So one thing that's fascinating is
that the descendants of these settlers spoke English with a
southern accent for generations and over time, as people do,
(11:20):
they intermarried with Brazilians who have been living there since
way before, and their numbers sword they thrived, they became
you would argue, would one would argue, well, actually everybody agrees.
They became essentially Brazilian, right and not just some American exclave.
But like many people in the world, even in the
(11:43):
modern day, the population of Americana, those two thirty something
thousand people love Western music, love Western movies, and of
the music they love, they're especially fond of wait for it,
country music. Are you a fan of country music, man
(12:04):
country and or western? You know? I am a fan
of very old country, you know, my my family, without
getting too deep into the murky past of the Bowling clan,
they they have extensive roots in Appalachia, So bluegrass, gospel,
(12:25):
countryment not so I'm not so much a modern country fan.
I don't know what about you. I find most modern
country music to be pretty un listening a little bit.
I'm with you on the classics. Um so let me,
let's let's backtrack just to touch sure, let's uh, let's
can we get a can we get a backtrack? Thegle noise. Okay,
(12:45):
here we are only because I think this is interesting
and worth mentioning, because I feel like we glossed over
to the tad Don paged Or the Second, the ruler
of Brazil during this time. He ruled from eighteen o
nine to eighteen sixty five. UM. He was a huge
admirer of Abraham him Lincoln. Actually, so we mentioned the
whole fact that, you know, slavery was still legal in Brazil,
(13:05):
and that may have made it attractive to some of
these settlers. They wanted to continue their way of life
they were used to. But Dumpagro the Second actually felt
like the idea of slavery had the potential to cause
a civil war in and in his own country. Seems painfully, painfully,
(13:25):
painfully obvious. So he was all about getting rid of slavery,
and when he kind of helped pushed through some measures
that did that, he was basically deposed. But the work
that he did to abolish slavery, you know, persevered, and
he actually started with the uh, hopefully not Bucher These
too bad, but the Quiros Law of eighteen fifty, which
(13:47):
outlawed the slave trade. And then his second one was
to proclaim in eighteen seventy one the Lido ventre Livro,
which is the Law of the Free Womb, which declared
that children born of slaves would also be free, you know.
And then finally there was the Lie Area, the Golden Law,
which abolished slavery completely in and that actually caused some
(14:11):
of the folks that immigrated to Brazil to leave. Also
during this time when kind of the whole reconstruction situation
changed and it became much more of the Jim Crow
you know, post abolition world that we know. Uh, and
this bis yes, So there there are several really important
(14:31):
things to underlying here. The Golden Law, if we just
use the English term for it, is the ultimate no
caveats manumission law, freeing one from slavery. The other laws
were sort of gradually weakening the type of slavery that
existed by degrees and all slavery is deplorable, repugnant, and
(14:56):
in my view, in human, But there are several different
type and the type of slavery that was practiced in
the United States leading to the Civil War, and then
type of slavery that was practiced in Brazil at the
time intended to be something like chattel slavery. Definitely chattel
slavery in the US and in Brazil a very similar system.
(15:20):
This means that it's not say, indentured servitude, It wouldn't
be um, it wouldn't be, for instance, someone being a
slave for seven years until a debt is considered repaid.
It's slavery based on bloodline, which means that automatically the
child of a slave becomes a slave for life, no escape,
(15:42):
and any kids that they have are going to be
the property of whomever is considered legally to be the
owner of that slave. The reason I brought up the
whole situation with slavery in Brazil was because actually some
of the newly freed slaves in the US immigrated to
Brazil as well, and sometimes they even came with their
previous owners. And I found this on an article on
(16:05):
Project Gutenberg self publishing press on the Confederados, and it
says in this article that there was a situation where
a former slave by the name of Steve Watson was
given the run of a sawmill in Brazil that belonged
to his former owner, a man by the name of
Judge Dyer of Texas. And when Mr Watson came back
(16:26):
to the US um Dyer actually deeded all of his
remaining property to Watson in the area of the Djukia
Valley um where there are many Brazilian families with the
last name Vaseo, which the Portuguese way of pronouncing Watson.
So this legacy perseveres to this day in a pretty
(16:48):
interesting way. Many families did end up traveling back to
the United States during the Construction era. The settlers who
stayed uh became quickly successful to get a reputation for
honesty and hard work. The new techniques they brought for
(17:12):
existing agricultural products worked well, but they also brought new
food crops and new ways of cooking food or preparing it.
And as we know, you can learn so much about
the human story through the transmission of food, whether we're
talking spices like peppercorn or saffron, whether we're talking staples
(17:34):
like rice, or how tomatoes made it to Italy, which
is its own other story. I guess, before I derail
this too much, let'll be let me stay focused on Brazil.
I think it's because I just I didn't eat before
we came in here. So now food history is automatically, uh,
automatically capturing my mind. Just think to just pound the
(17:54):
rest of that five hour energy. Dude, just do it,
do it? Do it? Uh. Some some of the dishes
that were standouts that were very popular in this area Brazil,
where things like chess pie or vinegar pie. Fried chicken
is vinegar pie. Vinegar pie doesn't have the most appealing name.
(18:14):
I would grant you that. Uh. It's it's like eggs
with a little bit of cinnamon, sugar and two tablespoons
of cider vinegar. He makes something like you feed two
kids when they've misbehaved or No. It's the thing people
people eat it for fun and it has sort of
an apple pie like flavor because of the cid, but
(18:35):
there's a custardy vibe to it as well. You know,
I haven't tried it. I'd love to hear from someone
who has, maybe you know what, friends and neighbors. Thank
you so much for listening to show. I'd like to
defer to you on this. If you have tried vinegar pie,
let us know if this is something that we should
delve into, if we should try it ourselves, or you know,
(18:57):
warn us if it's a traumatic experience. For you. The
Southern food, right, the Southern food is is pretty pretty
successful and it catches on. And as we said, these
Confederados as they were called, I guess, continue their culture
and as best they could, right, And similar to the
(19:22):
hippos that traveled to Columbia with Pablo Escobar, they thrived
in a way that might seem you know, counterintuitive at first,
to the point that this is not just an odd
historical footnote, it's a ridiculous historical footnote, right, yes, And
it's a current practice because if you travel down to
(19:46):
American and Brazil today, you will not just see one
monuments and maybe a couple of placards and old farms
roll plantations. No, depending on when you go, you I
find yourself in the midst of a very strange, very
strange party, something of a shin dig, something of a
(20:10):
suare you see, every year for the last quarter century,
the descendants of these Confederatos gather for a gigantic party
that celebrates their vision of Confederate culture, which, you know
what is sort of reminds me of did you ever
go to Six Flags over Georgia? Yeah? I have season passes,
(20:33):
you know that about me? Ben No I'm setting you
up the U. I don't know if it's still the same,
because it's talking about Lick Skillet Junction right right where
they've got Dixie music playing the whole time. I almost
picture it like that. So the population of the town
gets together, they dress up in gray like Johnny reb
(20:55):
uniforms and then hoop skirts, and they dance around to
fiddle and banjo tunes. And it's the copious amounts of
Confederate flag wavings, shall we say wavings. They even have
a dance floor emblazoned with the uh what do they
call it, old, old old glory Glory that's it. Yeah,
and they're not alone. Over the years, reporters have traveled
(21:18):
to check out the celebration, and uh so have Confederate
enthusiasts from the United States, Unan actors, descendants themselves from
Confederate soldiers and the like. In fact, the first of
all the party, the annual festival, is called the Festa Confederata,
(21:40):
and um, you know I said, it's marked by Confederate flags,
Confederate uniforms, the hoop skirts you mentioned, um, and this
fusion of you know, Southern culture with Brazilian culture, dancing um,
popular music that you know, like you're saying, banjo music
and all the stuff that you would have heard during
the Antebellum period. And they have this affection, this affinity,
(22:02):
if you will, for the Confederate flag. And then as
you know, listeners, as you know, this is something of
a problematic emblem today more than ever, I would say,
in our country. Yes, here in the United States as
we record this in twenty seventeen, Uh, the nation is
engaging in a debate about symbols and their historical significance.
(22:29):
And one of the big flashpoints for this in our
country is always going to be, or has always been
up to now, uh, the Confederate flag. Since the end
of the Civil War to the modern day. People have
argued back and forth about what waiving this flag means, right,
And the same thing goes for statues monuments. You know.
(22:52):
We are based in Atlanta, where we are just a
few minutes drive away from a gigantic Confederate monument known
as Stone Mountain. Ya. It's literally a mountain with the
big old Confederate uh scene shall we say, um carved
into the rock. Um. Who are those dudes? Yeah, there
(23:15):
are three Confederate figures depicted in just gigantic scale on
on Stone Mountain. They're Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and
Stonewall Jackson. And it's interesting because with all the talk
these days in the news about UM you know, removing
Confederate monuments from UM cities, the courthouse defensive, they're offensive,
(23:37):
they shouldn't be on public land, etcetera. Uh, it came out.
It's really interesting that Roberty Lee it was kind of
against Confederate monuments in the first place, and then they
didn't really pop up until years, you know, after the
Civil War. It's a really great quote from Roberty Lee
where he says, quote, I think at wiser not to
keep open the source of war with to follow the
example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the arcs
(24:00):
of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings
it engendered. And so back to Brazil, there's actually a
really fantastic article in the New York Times about this town,
this Santa Barbara Desto. Yeah, yeah, by Simon Romero. Right's
(24:21):
right in the very first sentence um in the article.
I'm gonna quote because this is great. The set scene
Santa Barbara Deasto, Brazil, on a stage festooned with Confederate flags.
The singer was belting out dixieland Delight by Alabama near
an obelisk, honoring the Americans who fled to this outpost
in the aftermath of the Civil War. Here's the important quote.
(24:42):
We're not racists, says Cissero car fifty four, an engineer
whose great great grandfather hailed from Texas. Wearing a fedora
featuring the rebel battle flag. He explained in Portuguese, we're
just revering our ancestors who had the good sense to
settle in Brazil. This is actually a really really interesting touchpoint,
like considering what's going on in our country right now
(25:04):
and the arguments for and against removing these relics of
the past, and whether it actually means you're actively being
racist or you're actively um celebrating celebrating slavery in some way,
or you know, um. And I think this is a
very interesting case study where this is almost like a
weird back to the Disneyland thing. This is almost like
(25:26):
this kind of removed version of this, you know, where
it's not functional exactly. It's like a I don't know,
I think I see what you're saying, because, as as
we'll find out at the end, this is not the
only situation where something like this has occurred foreign country
or in a non US country, or let's even go
(25:49):
further and say a country not directly associated with the conflict. UH.
That is you know, being celebrated, and it's very important
for us to underlie these uh, these following things. The
average person celebrating this sees it as a celebration of
their own history, the history of Americana Brazil. They do
(26:13):
not see it as a, as we said, a celebration
of slavery or in any way, UH a celebration of
man's in humanity to man or people's in humanity two people. Rather.
In fact, the Confederados have downplayed their ancestors interest in
maintaining UH slavery system. But you know, this doesn't just
(26:36):
include the context of the US. We must also include
the context of Brazil, which was the last country in
either American continent to abolish slavery. It wasn't until eighteen
eighty eight. And then after that, slave like conditions and
situations continued. There were still going to be you know,
(26:57):
agricultural wage slavery by the best efforts of our boy
Dumpage are the second, despite his best efforts. And this
means that despite the UH the intervening decades, including nineteen
forty where there was a constitutional amendment prohibiting employers from
(27:17):
submitting workers to quote conditions analogous to slavery UM, Brazil
was still desperate to modernize and this incentivize farm owners
to start putting wage laborers in debt and then holding
them in bondage, preventing their freedom of movement off the plantation.
More that indentured servitude vibe exactly exactly, and Americana itself
(27:43):
got caught up in this controversy in two thousand thirteen.
In January, the Brazilian Ministry of Labor orchestrated a sting
in Americana and it found Bolivian immigrants manufacturing baby clothes
under the supervision of two Olivian bosses UH. They broke
up the factory, the Ministry of Labor, that is, and
(28:05):
they sued. They said the conditions they found were deplorable
or execrable enough to constitute slavery. But of every single
person or the average person again that you ask about
slavery in this town. Most people will say, well, I don't.
There's no slavery here, and this is not in any
way a celebration of that. So what seems to be
(28:30):
a flashpoint of conflict here in the United States is
simply a the same thing as like the annual town fair.
I think that's what I was kind of poorly stumbling
my way towards earlier, is that it feels like that
Six Flags or Disneyland kind of recreation of a of
a situation where the roots of negativity are somehow kind
(28:56):
of whitewashed away a little bit. It doesn't mean it
still kind of picks me out a little bit, to
be honest, you know what I mean. But um, it's
interesting in in fact, in the nineteen seventy two, Jimmy
Carter came to the region for a visit to Americana,
and in you know, in preparing for his visit, the
Americana actually added the Confederate flag into its municipal coat
(29:19):
of arms. Um. But actually most people that live there
these days are Italian descended, so they removed it because
the descendants of the Confederatos apparently now comprised only about
a tenth of the population of the area UM. But
when Carter was there, he visited the Santa Barbara de
Este and visited the grave of um a relative of
(29:42):
his wife Rosalind her relatives was one of the original Confederatos.
And while he was there he couldn't help but notice
that everyone just seemed just like good old Southerners, because
we know Jimmy Carter, being from Atlanta as we are, UM,
he is the poor a trip of a Southern gentleman. Yes, yes,
(30:03):
he knows it when he sees it. So if you're
listening to this, Jimmy, feel free to give us a call. Well,
answer the phone. It's actually really nice, guys, several where
coworkers of METAM. He does all this habitat for humanity stuff,
and he's got the Carter Center does all this amazing
work election monitoring, yet disease uh, disease mitigation. Yeah. So, Nolan,
(30:23):
I want to be clear that we're not denigrating the
people in Americana who celebrate this way. We're hopefully painting
some of the context here because the idea of and exclave,
you know, the idea of people moving to a foreign
(30:45):
country and attempting to make it function as if it
is just the same thing as the country from which
they originated. It's it's a fairly I don't want to
say common, but it's not as rare as it might sound,
you know. And there have been multiple attempts in South America,
even in Brazil by Westerners to sort of recreate the
(31:07):
concept of the small town USA or the Confederacy or
whatever their cultural slice of the vinegar pie that is
American history might be. Still know I feel about that.
Can we call it something else? Uh? Do you want
to call it delicious? Yum yum pie, apple cider pie.
(31:28):
I'm fine with that. That's a little better with that. Hey, listeners,
what do you think it should be called? What should have?
Disgusting food stuff? How can you make it more palatable
just by changing the name? And is it disgusting? There?
Is it just the name? I'm being I'm being judging
because there's like barley water probably awesome. Have you ever
heard of barley water beer? No? No, in the UK,
I swear it's squash. And then of course spotted dick.
(31:51):
Do you remember that? Maybe King Ralph with John? Yeah,
that was great that there's a big joke in that
you're welcome girl talk. We just gave them an idea
for the next album. I do want to close with
just let's let's call it a teaser if we can,
(32:13):
for another strange relationship between American governments or the US
government and a South American area. It turns out that
in Paraguay President Rutherford B. Hayes is immensely popular. Do
you ever hear about this? Yeah? He uh, He's immensely
(32:37):
popular because he awarded territory to Paraguay as an arbiter
in a boundary dispute between Paraguay and Argentina after the
Paraguay and War. And we were not gonna We're not
gonna just segue into that as a whole another episode.
But if you're interested in these sorts of stories, this
(32:57):
is a great read. So find out why Rutherford B. Hayes,
who is not a name you here often in the
US anymore. Oh, Ruthy B. Yeah right right. Actually people
had at the time his opponents called him Ruther Fraud.
I know, it's dirty, dirty pool, but find you can
find out why he remains immensely popular in parts of
(33:19):
Paraguay today. And we hope that you will let us
know if you find your way down to the Festa
Confederata in Brazil. And uh side note, if you're a
George Straight fan, Oh buddy, this is supposed to be
right up your alley. I'm proud to be in nuts.
Who's that Leon green Steve Greenwood case? He just told me,
(33:43):
I'm just making up names now Lee Greenwood and you
know what that means. Whenever we mentioned Lee Greenwood, that's
a new rule on the podcast that nold I just
made up. That beings that it's time to wrap up
this episode of a Ridiculous History. We hope that you
enjoyed it and we would as always love to hear
from you. You can find us in our whole team
(34:04):
on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook where we
are Ridiculous History, both of those, and feel free if
you're already online to drop us a suggestion. Let us
know if there's a particular episode in history that you
would like us to cover in an episode of our own.
Are we not being ridiculous enough? Are you know? Do
you do? Do you want to pick apart literally everything
(34:26):
that we say we're down? Just do it? Are you
not entertained by the ridiculousity that's both the speed of
ridiculousness and the direction learned something new every day. Well,
we hope you guys learned something and then had a
good time, and uh hope you'll join us on the
next install, Ridiculous History. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
(34:51):
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so
much as always for tuning in. Let's get a skirt
sound effect or record scratch or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's
our one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. They
called me Ben my ride or dime. Mr Noel Brown
(00:22):
is currently out, but we'll return it later this week. Max.
It's the day after July four, So happy fourth of
July to all who celebrate. How is your weekend? Man?
It was? It was amazing. I just kind of took
it really easy. Watched a lot of baseball and did
not play Eldin Ring. I played a better video game
called skym Now you know. I I love them both,
(00:45):
you know. And it was funny because I almost I
almost texted you over the weekend because July four, you know,
a bunch of people celebrated that here in the U S.
That's this country's in dependence stay and we took a
day off. So we have a classic episode coming today.
(01:06):
But I thought thematically, this line's up pretty pretty well
in a surprising way. We're talking about patriotism of a sort,
uh for for not the current United States, but what's
known as the Confederacy from a little thing called the
(01:26):
American Civil War. The other people, the people who didn't
win that thing, right, right, But we're not talking about
a celebration that occurs in the US. As a matter
of fact, today's classic takes us down south, past the Confederacy,
or past the historical home and the Confederacy all the
(01:49):
way to Brazil. Now, Um, Max, I think this episode
came before you had joined the team, so you might
be listening along with us on this one. Huh. Yeah,
this is a about two years before I joined the team,
maybe three years so yeah, this is all new to
me and I'm excited to hear about it. Oh wow,
how long have we been doing this show? Well, we
(02:10):
hope you enjoy this when folks, this was a fascinating
story for Nolan myself and it's it's a wild ride.
Heads up, we can't wait to hear your thoughts. Yeah,
and make sure to tune in Thursday because we have
an exciting episode about government cover ups, chemicals and St. Louis.
Lots of fun stuff there. And one last personal note. Today,
(02:34):
the day this comes out is ji which is officially
my dad's birthday. So happy New Year dad. Um also, wait,
I shouldn't have said officially that that sounds sketchy. It's
it's his real birthday, Max, it's his real birth al. Right,
here we go. Ridiculous History is a production of I
(02:57):
Heart Radio. Hello, welcome to the show. I'm Ben. Oh, Hey,
(03:31):
I'm sorry, it's me. It's no, it's no. I'm here.
I'm here, I'm paying attention, and we're gonna talk about
some ridiculous history. Yes, and I believe that was a
beautiful snatch of song there, only it would be more like, Uh,
I wish I was in Brazil. Hooray, hooray in brazil Land,
gonna make my stand to live and die in Brazil. Yes,
(03:53):
that's true. And you may be wondering, Ben Noal super
producer Casey pegramon, what do these things have in common?
What does that? Uh? What does that series of hypnotic
sensual music? Thank you? Yeah, look at look at me.
(04:13):
I'm just a cloud of cotton candy and you're just
the milk of human kindness. We are delving into something
that uh that that we were hipped to via our
friends Mangesh and will Over at Part Time Genius, one
of our Pure podcast They had an episode recently called
(04:34):
what's the most American place in the world parentheses outside
of the United States. Yeah, and one of the things
that came up time and time again were the various
Disneyland theme park attractions all across the globe. In fact,
in a sten study by Branding Magazine, around five thousand
people Americans were asked of which two d forty brands
(04:57):
best personified the patriotists of the United States and associated
the Disney brand with US patriotism. But that is not
what our show is about today, because for truly bizarro
unusual taste of Americana outside of the US soil, We're
going to head for Do Do Do Do Do Do
(05:18):
Do Do Do do do umbras Yes, my friends, specifically
to the Brazilian state of South Polo. Uh. You see,
in South Polo there is a town, a not insignificant
town in terms of population, a city of about two
hundred and thirty thousand people called Americana. See we we
(05:43):
set it up earlier. This is true, and this city
um welcomed somewhere between. According to various accounts, ten thousand
and twenty thousand American Southerners after the Confederates lost the
Civil War in the at eighteen hundreds. Yeah, when the
American Confederacy lost the bloody dispute known as the Civil
(06:07):
War here in the US in May of eighteen sixty five.
War between the States, the War between the States, Brother
against brother Blue v. Gray, all that stuff. A contingent
of these Southerners fled the United States entirely seeking to
rebuild their lives and carry on the cultures to which
(06:29):
they were accustomed. And we do want to warn, of course,
that this is not all rainbow glitter trumpets and angel farts,
as we will see angel farts. Yeah, you know, I'm
just including things that people probably like. You know, I
went to a store with my kid over the weekend
and she but she's really in the slime, and she
bought the slime called unicorn farts. We're done talking about
(06:52):
farts now. Now we're going to talk about the settlers
and where they came from, which was mainly Alabama, Georgia,
and Texas. And they, as Ben said, to preserve their
unreconstructed Southern way of life and also escape possible prosecution
for treason, no big deal war crimes. Yeah. Uh, In
(07:12):
this movement. This group movement occurs due primarily to a
fellow named William Hutchison Norris. He is the founder of
this town American of Brazil, uh and he was a
Mexican American War veteran and also an Alabama senator. He
is the one who led the charge along with thirty
(07:33):
Confederate families. Believe he was a colonel, right, yeah, I
believe so, and he was. He was also just a
side note here for anyone interested in some fringe history. Uh.
He was a grand Master of the Alabama Masonic Lodge,
which is not important to this story, but one of those.
Oh not to be confused with a grand wizard. No no,
(07:56):
no Alabama. Good luck planning, right and not that we
are inflating, No no, no never, We would never and
I mean that we would never. We actually we co
host a conspiracy realist podcast called Stuff They Don't Want
You to Know where if you want to hear more
about Illuminati and the like and Masonic rights, check out
that show. But yeah, so, Colonel Norris actually established this
(08:19):
colony in a town currently known as Santa Barbara d
este uh and it was actually sometimes referred to as
the Norris colony. And the reason that these uh Confederatos
as they were ultimately referred to as, decided to make
that trip was because Brazil offered cheap land and slavery
(08:42):
was still legal. That's yeah, That's one of the key
things here. So a lot of the people moving were
agricultural experts, right. Brazil offered cheap land and of incentives essentially, yeah,
and an Agrica cultural system with which these families were
(09:02):
unfortunately very familiar, which was of course the use of
slave labor. And at the time Brazil had an emperor,
a fellow named dom Pedro two, and he didn't just
you know, turnal blind eye as these families moved in.
He wanted them there so much so that he offered
to pay moving costs, which you know, I like the
(09:24):
way Nol says it. Uh. The idea is essentially like
tax incentives. I think the cheap land came as an incentive.
It was to entice these new settlers. And also Don
Pedro the second was a an ally I guess you
could say, of the Confederate cause. So he saw this
as an opportunity to get new types of agricultural expertise
(09:47):
I guess in his country one of those crops was cotton,
which as we know, is very important staple crop in
the American South, and Brazilian farmers started to take up
these new farming methods that they were taught more or
less by the American settlers, the Confederatos, right, And this
all begins to happen very quickly after the close of
(10:11):
the Civil War. By eighteen sixty six, the region was
becoming noticeably populated with these immigrants from the United States.
And we should add that not all of them found success.
There were thousands of people who accepted this deal, but
only one group of settlers from Alabama, Norris is you know, Cadre,
(10:36):
for lack of a better word, thrived And these uh,
these folks had surnames that you can find in the
town today like baired We got Buford, Clark, and Curry,
among others. There's actually a memorial there to this day
that highlights of these names like Sanders, Seawright, Skurlock, Smith, Stiegel, Strong, Tanner.
(10:59):
And again this all falls under them the serenity of
the Suzeranity of Norris. So one thing that's fascinating is
that the descendants of these settlers spoke English with a
southern accent for generations and over time, as people do,
(11:20):
they intermarried with Brazilians who have been living there since
way before, and their numbers sword they thrived, they became
you would argue, would one would argue, well, actually everybody agrees.
They became essentially Brazilian, right and not just some American exclave.
But like many people in the world, even in the
(11:43):
modern day, the population of Americana, those two thirty something
thousand people love Western music, love Western movies, and of
the music they love, they're especially fond of wait for it,
country music. Are you a fan of country music, man
(12:04):
country and or western? You know? I am a fan
of very old country, you know, my my family, without
getting too deep into the murky past of the Bowling clan,
they they have extensive roots in Appalachia, So bluegrass, gospel,
(12:25):
countryment not so I'm not so much a modern country fan.
I don't know what about you. I find most modern
country music to be pretty un listening a little bit.
I'm with you on the classics. Um so let me,
let's let's backtrack just to touch sure, let's uh, let's
can we get a can we get a backtrack? Thegle noise. Okay,
(12:45):
here we are only because I think this is interesting
and worth mentioning, because I feel like we glossed over
to the tad Don paged Or the Second, the ruler
of Brazil during this time. He ruled from eighteen o
nine to eighteen sixty five. UM. He was a huge
admirer of Abraham him Lincoln. Actually, so we mentioned the
whole fact that, you know, slavery was still legal in Brazil,
(13:05):
and that may have made it attractive to some of
these settlers. They wanted to continue their way of life
they were used to. But Dumpagro the Second actually felt
like the idea of slavery had the potential to cause
a civil war in and in his own country. Seems painfully, painfully,
(13:25):
painfully obvious. So he was all about getting rid of slavery,
and when he kind of helped pushed through some measures
that did that, he was basically deposed. But the work
that he did to abolish slavery, you know, persevered, and
he actually started with the uh, hopefully not Bucher These
too bad, but the Quiros Law of eighteen fifty, which
(13:47):
outlawed the slave trade. And then his second one was
to proclaim in eighteen seventy one the Lido ventre Livro,
which is the Law of the Free Womb, which declared
that children born of slaves would also be free, you know.
And then finally there was the Lie Area, the Golden Law,
which abolished slavery completely in and that actually caused some
(14:11):
of the folks that immigrated to Brazil to leave. Also
during this time when kind of the whole reconstruction situation
changed and it became much more of the Jim Crow
you know, post abolition world that we know. Uh, and
this bis yes, So there there are several really important
(14:31):
things to underlying here. The Golden Law, if we just
use the English term for it, is the ultimate no
caveats manumission law, freeing one from slavery. The other laws
were sort of gradually weakening the type of slavery that
existed by degrees and all slavery is deplorable, repugnant, and
(14:56):
in my view, in human, But there are several different
type and the type of slavery that was practiced in
the United States leading to the Civil War, and then
type of slavery that was practiced in Brazil at the
time intended to be something like chattel slavery. Definitely chattel
slavery in the US and in Brazil a very similar system.
(15:20):
This means that it's not say, indentured servitude, It wouldn't
be um, it wouldn't be, for instance, someone being a
slave for seven years until a debt is considered repaid.
It's slavery based on bloodline, which means that automatically the
child of a slave becomes a slave for life, no escape,
(15:42):
and any kids that they have are going to be
the property of whomever is considered legally to be the
owner of that slave. The reason I brought up the
whole situation with slavery in Brazil was because actually some
of the newly freed slaves in the US immigrated to
Brazil as well, and sometimes they even came with their
previous owners. And I found this on an article on
(16:05):
Project Gutenberg self publishing press on the Confederados, and it
says in this article that there was a situation where
a former slave by the name of Steve Watson was
given the run of a sawmill in Brazil that belonged
to his former owner, a man by the name of
Judge Dyer of Texas. And when Mr Watson came back
(16:26):
to the US um Dyer actually deeded all of his
remaining property to Watson in the area of the Djukia
Valley um where there are many Brazilian families with the
last name Vaseo, which the Portuguese way of pronouncing Watson.
So this legacy perseveres to this day in a pretty
(16:48):
interesting way. Many families did end up traveling back to
the United States during the Construction era. The settlers who
stayed uh became quickly successful to get a reputation for
honesty and hard work. The new techniques they brought for
(17:12):
existing agricultural products worked well, but they also brought new
food crops and new ways of cooking food or preparing it.
And as we know, you can learn so much about
the human story through the transmission of food, whether we're
talking spices like peppercorn or saffron, whether we're talking staples
(17:34):
like rice, or how tomatoes made it to Italy, which
is its own other story. I guess, before I derail
this too much, let'll be let me stay focused on Brazil.
I think it's because I just I didn't eat before
we came in here. So now food history is automatically, uh,
automatically capturing my mind. Just think to just pound the
(17:54):
rest of that five hour energy. Dude, just do it,
do it? Do it? Uh. Some some of the dishes
that were standouts that were very popular in this area Brazil,
where things like chess pie or vinegar pie. Fried chicken
is vinegar pie. Vinegar pie doesn't have the most appealing name.
(18:14):
I would grant you that. Uh. It's it's like eggs
with a little bit of cinnamon, sugar and two tablespoons
of cider vinegar. He makes something like you feed two
kids when they've misbehaved or No. It's the thing people
people eat it for fun and it has sort of
an apple pie like flavor because of the cid, but
(18:35):
there's a custardy vibe to it as well. You know,
I haven't tried it. I'd love to hear from someone
who has, maybe you know what, friends and neighbors. Thank
you so much for listening to show. I'd like to
defer to you on this. If you have tried vinegar pie,
let us know if this is something that we should
delve into, if we should try it ourselves, or you know,
(18:57):
warn us if it's a traumatic experience. For you. The
Southern food, right, the Southern food is is pretty pretty
successful and it catches on. And as we said, these
Confederados as they were called, I guess, continue their culture
and as best they could, right, And similar to the
(19:22):
hippos that traveled to Columbia with Pablo Escobar, they thrived
in a way that might seem you know, counterintuitive at first,
to the point that this is not just an odd
historical footnote, it's a ridiculous historical footnote, right, yes, And
it's a current practice because if you travel down to
(19:46):
American and Brazil today, you will not just see one
monuments and maybe a couple of placards and old farms
roll plantations. No, depending on when you go, you I
find yourself in the midst of a very strange, very
strange party, something of a shin dig, something of a
(20:10):
suare you see, every year for the last quarter century,
the descendants of these Confederatos gather for a gigantic party
that celebrates their vision of Confederate culture, which, you know
what is sort of reminds me of did you ever
go to Six Flags over Georgia? Yeah? I have season passes,
(20:33):
you know that about me? Ben No I'm setting you
up the U. I don't know if it's still the same,
because it's talking about Lick Skillet Junction right right where
they've got Dixie music playing the whole time. I almost
picture it like that. So the population of the town
gets together, they dress up in gray like Johnny reb
(20:55):
uniforms and then hoop skirts, and they dance around to
fiddle and banjo tunes. And it's the copious amounts of
Confederate flag wavings, shall we say wavings. They even have
a dance floor emblazoned with the uh what do they
call it, old, old old glory Glory that's it. Yeah,
and they're not alone. Over the years, reporters have traveled
(21:18):
to check out the celebration, and uh so have Confederate
enthusiasts from the United States, Unan actors, descendants themselves from
Confederate soldiers and the like. In fact, the first of
all the party, the annual festival, is called the Festa Confederata,
(21:40):
and um, you know I said, it's marked by Confederate flags,
Confederate uniforms, the hoop skirts you mentioned, um, and this
fusion of you know, Southern culture with Brazilian culture, dancing um,
popular music that you know, like you're saying, banjo music
and all the stuff that you would have heard during
the Antebellum period. And they have this affection, this affinity,
(22:02):
if you will, for the Confederate flag. And then as
you know, listeners, as you know, this is something of
a problematic emblem today more than ever, I would say,
in our country. Yes, here in the United States as
we record this in twenty seventeen, Uh, the nation is
engaging in a debate about symbols and their historical significance.
(22:29):
And one of the big flashpoints for this in our
country is always going to be, or has always been
up to now, uh, the Confederate flag. Since the end
of the Civil War to the modern day. People have
argued back and forth about what waiving this flag means, right,
And the same thing goes for statues monuments. You know.
(22:52):
We are based in Atlanta, where we are just a
few minutes drive away from a gigantic Confederate monument known
as Stone Mountain. Ya. It's literally a mountain with the
big old Confederate uh scene shall we say, um carved
into the rock. Um. Who are those dudes? Yeah, there
(23:15):
are three Confederate figures depicted in just gigantic scale on
on Stone Mountain. They're Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and
Stonewall Jackson. And it's interesting because with all the talk
these days in the news about UM you know, removing
Confederate monuments from UM cities, the courthouse defensive, they're offensive,
(23:37):
they shouldn't be on public land, etcetera. Uh, it came out.
It's really interesting that Roberty Lee it was kind of
against Confederate monuments in the first place, and then they
didn't really pop up until years, you know, after the
Civil War. It's a really great quote from Roberty Lee
where he says, quote, I think at wiser not to
keep open the source of war with to follow the
example of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the arcs
(24:00):
of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings
it engendered. And so back to Brazil, there's actually a
really fantastic article in the New York Times about this town,
this Santa Barbara Desto. Yeah, yeah, by Simon Romero. Right's
(24:21):
right in the very first sentence um in the article.
I'm gonna quote because this is great. The set scene
Santa Barbara Deasto, Brazil, on a stage festooned with Confederate flags.
The singer was belting out dixieland Delight by Alabama near
an obelisk, honoring the Americans who fled to this outpost
in the aftermath of the Civil War. Here's the important quote.
(24:42):
We're not racists, says Cissero car fifty four, an engineer
whose great great grandfather hailed from Texas. Wearing a fedora
featuring the rebel battle flag. He explained in Portuguese, we're
just revering our ancestors who had the good sense to
settle in Brazil. This is actually a really really interesting touchpoint,
like considering what's going on in our country right now
(25:04):
and the arguments for and against removing these relics of
the past, and whether it actually means you're actively being
racist or you're actively um celebrating celebrating slavery in some way,
or you know, um. And I think this is a
very interesting case study where this is almost like a
weird back to the Disneyland thing. This is almost like
(25:26):
this kind of removed version of this, you know, where
it's not functional exactly. It's like a I don't know,
I think I see what you're saying, because, as as
we'll find out at the end, this is not the
only situation where something like this has occurred foreign country
or in a non US country, or let's even go
(25:49):
further and say a country not directly associated with the conflict. UH.
That is you know, being celebrated, and it's very important
for us to underlie these uh, these following things. The
average person celebrating this sees it as a celebration of
their own history, the history of Americana Brazil. They do
(26:13):
not see it as a, as we said, a celebration
of slavery or in any way, UH a celebration of
man's in humanity to man or people's in humanity two people. Rather.
In fact, the Confederados have downplayed their ancestors interest in
maintaining UH slavery system. But you know, this doesn't just
(26:36):
include the context of the US. We must also include
the context of Brazil, which was the last country in
either American continent to abolish slavery. It wasn't until eighteen
eighty eight. And then after that, slave like conditions and
situations continued. There were still going to be you know,
(26:57):
agricultural wage slavery by the best efforts of our boy
Dumpage are the second, despite his best efforts. And this
means that despite the UH the intervening decades, including nineteen
forty where there was a constitutional amendment prohibiting employers from
(27:17):
submitting workers to quote conditions analogous to slavery UM, Brazil
was still desperate to modernize and this incentivize farm owners
to start putting wage laborers in debt and then holding
them in bondage, preventing their freedom of movement off the plantation.
More that indentured servitude vibe exactly exactly, and Americana itself
(27:43):
got caught up in this controversy in two thousand thirteen.
In January, the Brazilian Ministry of Labor orchestrated a sting
in Americana and it found Bolivian immigrants manufacturing baby clothes
under the supervision of two Olivian bosses UH. They broke
up the factory, the Ministry of Labor, that is, and
(28:05):
they sued. They said the conditions they found were deplorable
or execrable enough to constitute slavery. But of every single
person or the average person again that you ask about
slavery in this town. Most people will say, well, I don't.
There's no slavery here, and this is not in any
way a celebration of that. So what seems to be
(28:30):
a flashpoint of conflict here in the United States is
simply a the same thing as like the annual town fair.
I think that's what I was kind of poorly stumbling
my way towards earlier, is that it feels like that
Six Flags or Disneyland kind of recreation of a of
a situation where the roots of negativity are somehow kind
(28:56):
of whitewashed away a little bit. It doesn't mean it
still kind of picks me out a little bit, to
be honest, you know what I mean. But um, it's
interesting in in fact, in the nineteen seventy two, Jimmy
Carter came to the region for a visit to Americana,
and in you know, in preparing for his visit, the
Americana actually added the Confederate flag into its municipal coat
(29:19):
of arms. Um. But actually most people that live there
these days are Italian descended, so they removed it because
the descendants of the Confederatos apparently now comprised only about
a tenth of the population of the area UM. But
when Carter was there, he visited the Santa Barbara de
Este and visited the grave of um a relative of
(29:42):
his wife Rosalind her relatives was one of the original Confederatos.
And while he was there he couldn't help but notice
that everyone just seemed just like good old Southerners, because
we know Jimmy Carter, being from Atlanta as we are, UM,
he is the poor a trip of a Southern gentleman. Yes, yes,
(30:03):
he knows it when he sees it. So if you're
listening to this, Jimmy, feel free to give us a call. Well,
answer the phone. It's actually really nice, guys, several where
coworkers of METAM. He does all this habitat for humanity stuff,
and he's got the Carter Center does all this amazing
work election monitoring, yet disease uh, disease mitigation. Yeah. So, Nolan,
(30:23):
I want to be clear that we're not denigrating the
people in Americana who celebrate this way. We're hopefully painting
some of the context here because the idea of and exclave,
you know, the idea of people moving to a foreign
(30:45):
country and attempting to make it function as if it
is just the same thing as the country from which
they originated. It's it's a fairly I don't want to
say common, but it's not as rare as it might sound,
you know. And there have been multiple attempts in South America,
even in Brazil by Westerners to sort of recreate the
(31:07):
concept of the small town USA or the Confederacy or
whatever their cultural slice of the vinegar pie that is
American history might be. Still know I feel about that.
Can we call it something else? Uh? Do you want
to call it delicious? Yum yum pie, apple cider pie.
(31:28):
I'm fine with that. That's a little better with that. Hey, listeners,
what do you think it should be called? What should have?
Disgusting food stuff? How can you make it more palatable
just by changing the name? And is it disgusting? There?
Is it just the name? I'm being I'm being judging
because there's like barley water probably awesome. Have you ever
heard of barley water beer? No? No, in the UK,
I swear it's squash. And then of course spotted dick.
(31:51):
Do you remember that? Maybe King Ralph with John? Yeah,
that was great that there's a big joke in that
you're welcome girl talk. We just gave them an idea
for the next album. I do want to close with
just let's let's call it a teaser if we can,
(32:13):
for another strange relationship between American governments or the US
government and a South American area. It turns out that
in Paraguay President Rutherford B. Hayes is immensely popular. Do
you ever hear about this? Yeah? He uh, He's immensely
(32:37):
popular because he awarded territory to Paraguay as an arbiter
in a boundary dispute between Paraguay and Argentina after the
Paraguay and War. And we were not gonna We're not
gonna just segue into that as a whole another episode.
But if you're interested in these sorts of stories, this
(32:57):
is a great read. So find out why Rutherford B. Hayes,
who is not a name you here often in the
US anymore. Oh, Ruthy B. Yeah right right. Actually people
had at the time his opponents called him Ruther Fraud.
I know, it's dirty, dirty pool, but find you can
find out why he remains immensely popular in parts of
(33:19):
Paraguay today. And we hope that you will let us
know if you find your way down to the Festa
Confederata in Brazil. And uh side note, if you're a
George Straight fan, Oh buddy, this is supposed to be
right up your alley. I'm proud to be in nuts.
Who's that Leon green Steve Greenwood case? He just told me,
(33:43):
I'm just making up names now Lee Greenwood and you
know what that means. Whenever we mentioned Lee Greenwood, that's
a new rule on the podcast that nold I just
made up. That beings that it's time to wrap up
this episode of a Ridiculous History. We hope that you
enjoyed it and we would as always love to hear
from you. You can find us in our whole team
(34:04):
on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook where we
are Ridiculous History, both of those, and feel free if
you're already online to drop us a suggestion. Let us
know if there's a particular episode in history that you
would like us to cover in an episode of our own.
Are we not being ridiculous enough? Are you know? Do
you do? Do you want to pick apart literally everything
(34:26):
that we say we're down? Just do it? Are you
not entertained by the ridiculousity that's both the speed of
ridiculousness and the direction learned something new every day. Well,
we hope you guys learned something and then had a
good time, and uh hope you'll join us on the
next install, Ridiculous History. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
(34:51):
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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