February 22, 2025 • 45 mins
There's a nifty bit of hidden history tucked away in Philadelphia's Wissahickon Valley Park -- a cave that, legend has it, was home to a doomsday cult. In today's episode, the guys follow the strange journey of Johannes Kelpius and his followers from Europe to North America as they prepared for the end of days (first in 1694, then in 1700). Tune in to learn what motivated the group, how they influenced American history, and what happened to them after the world kept spinning in today's Classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow Ridiculous Historians, we returned you with a classic episode.
It turns out that back in twenty eighteen, Noel and
I and oh our guy Gabe, remember Gabe Lucy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, Gabeluzier of course.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, we got super into a doomsday cult over there
in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It's true. It's a super cool bit of hidden history
tucked away in Philly and with a hicken Valley park. Gosh,
I hope to stand there with some of.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
The stir Heart grounds.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah. It's a cave where a legend has it, a
doomsday cult once made their home, their HQ, whatever you
want to call, where a cult hangs out and does
their cult thing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's roll it. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.
(01:14):
Well well, well, no, old friend, here we are on
Ridiculous History, about to about to dive into a topic
that I find endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, We're going to dive into a seahole. What is
a seahole? A cult, a cult hole?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yes? Or a cave hole?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
When I say a seahole, it's more of a c
rectangle really, yeah, because it's a it's a cave, a
man made cave with a rectangular door that was one
of the first ever homes to America's like original doomsday cult.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
My name is Ben. This Ridiculous History is I think
I just mentioned, And of course we are joined as
always with our super producer Casey Pegram. Know the rumors
are true. We're talking about a legitimate doomsday cult. And
you know in another show that you and I do together,
(02:10):
we run into cults on a on a like bi
monthly basis.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Semi regular. Yeah, But in Ridiculous History, man, we don't
deal in rumors. What's the brass tax, my man? Yes,
the brass tax. Take us to a place very familiar
with everyone here known as Philadelphia. See the Cave of
Kelpius is tucked away in a remote section of the
(02:35):
modern day Fairmont Park in Philadelphia, but it's very old.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You could walk past it and not really notice the
history now unless you went inside, right.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's right. In fact, a lot of places that describe
it say, even if you know where you're going, you're
probably a lot less likely to find it rather than
just stumble upon it because it is in like a
heavily wooded kind of blair Witch kind of environment. Right,
It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek, and in
sixteen ninety four, a very smart fellow, a scholar, something
(03:14):
of a New Age mystic type, right by the name
of Johannes Kelpius. He brought forty of his followers, all
learned men, from their home in Transylvania, to the newly
settled Germantown, Pennsylvania, because they were escaping religious persecution, because
(03:35):
they were they weren't playing by the book, no good book.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, yeah, they had their own playbook spiritually, and they
believed that the end was nigh. Johannes Kelpius was born
Johann kelp in Transylvania. As you said in sixteen sixty seven.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Is that nominative determinism? Do you think his family, like,
we're maritime folk.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I wonder that's a good question, you know. Also, what
I noticed is given the timeline, this is way before
Bram Stoker made Transylvania a scary place.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Is that weird?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It's going to come up in the next episode We're
going to do I think as well? Oh it is,
it is stay tuned spoiler alert. But yeah, so he
brought these forty they had I think he himself had
what you were starting his chronology. He was born oh yeah, yeah,
and then he was educated m hm yeah. He completed
(04:32):
his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf, and at the
time it was a very respected high falutint institution there
in Europe. And his name change occurred not because of
vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars
at this day and age was to latinize your name.
(04:53):
Sol became Kelpius. Would mind become Brownius, that's.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Interesting, Bolinnius, Brownius, Pegrimius, Pigrammius, Pagrimius, Begroomius. So while he's
at university, he becomes attracted to, acquainted with, enamored of
a religious movement known as Pietism. This was a reaction
against the Orthodox Lutheranism of the time, and then it
(05:22):
later expanded to include beliefs that, you know, as you said,
with his followers, beliefs that were considered heretical, strange, forbidden knowledge,
possibly a cult. And as he became more and more
immersed in this world, he also began to gather different
(05:42):
people around him. He was a follower of a guy
named Johann Jacob Zimmerman and Zimmerman formed a small group
of like minded people called the Chapter of Perfection.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It's true, and actually I saw him described as such
as a noted German mathematician, astronomer, and defrockt Lutheran minister.
And you know what happens when they defrock you, right, right,
That's like when you pull all the metals off the
general's chest, you know, yeah, and send him with his
tail between his legs.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You are no longer allowed to practice the spiritual beliefs.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Right, give me your badge and gun, detective.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Exactly, that's the good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And this group led by Zimmerman that Kelpius is a
member of right right around this time, he's maybe twenty
years old and most of the people in the group
are around his age. And the group believed that there
was a new spiritual age imminent, their version of the
one thousand year idea of Christ returning, and that they
(06:41):
had to prepare for this. And I love that you
mentioned Zimmerman being an astronomer, because that was the quantitative
basis for a lot of his arguments.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
That's right, And I just want to say too, Zimmerman
was kind of the one who initially unless I'm reading
this thing correctly. Initially put together this expedition, you know,
it was like a six month boat trip. Yeah yeah,
from from there from Europe to Germantown or Philadelphia area.
But he passed away before it could take off, Right,
(07:12):
So Kelpius kind of became the new de facto leader
of the group.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, the neo Zimmermann.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
This is an interesting part of the story that I
could not I don't know if you found anything, but
I couldn't solve one mystery about this. Estimates say that
around sixteen ninety two, this group, the Chapter of Perfection,
received an offer of free land in Pennsylvania in Germantown
what you mentioned, and a free boat ride over. But
(07:40):
they received it anonymously. Now I had read somewhere that
was from the governor of Pennsylvania. Oh okay, I was
trying to, you know, encourage new settlers to come in,
and offers of religious tolerance was a big part of
early Pennsylvania settlements, right, Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Maybe it wasn't the government though, but I know that
definitely was an effort from the powers that be in
this particular part of the colonies to attract more religiously
free thinking types.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And to populate the land with Europeans of course too. Yeah,
I think you must be spot on. You know. I
love the tantalizing hint of an anonymous person, but I
bet you are one hundred percent correct that it was
the governing structure of the time. But as you said, Zimmerman,
right around the time they're about to leave for what
(08:30):
would become the United States, Zimmerman dies in August of
sixteen ninety three, Kelpius becomes the commander. He leads them.
He leads his group of forty people to a ridge
there above the Wissahicken Gorge. That's such a fun word
to say, too. And there along the fortieth parallel, Kelpius
(08:55):
builds a forty foot square tabernacle because in their philosophy
and their understanding, forty is like the best number, It's
the most important magical number.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I did just find. It was William Penn who apparently
invited the group, And William Penn was the governor, and
I think kind of governed Pennsylvania like its own tear,
like its own entire amous autonomous thing. Yeah, that's right,
so Bend, you know, millennialism.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Is millennialism, from what I understand, is the belief that
the world will expire at a significant date, either either
completely end or some great change will occur. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That it's big time correct, and that is what these
folks were all about. You may have seen the Fox
television show kind of a bit of an X Files
ripoff called Millennium, but it was all about like the
end times and the end of days and stuff. But
there's a couple of different interpretations of millennialism, and I'm
taking this from the New World Encyclopedia. One of them
(10:00):
is this notion that Christ will come back to Earth
and establish himself an entire new kingdom and rule for
one thousand years, at which point will come the Reckoning,
you know, or some kind of calling of those that
deserve to stick around and those that have to go.
Then there's another version of it where the second Coming
(10:21):
occurs with an immediate culling of the wicked through some
sort of cataclysmic event to trigger a new world order
kind of thing. But whichever one they believed in, the
fact is there was a very specific part of the
Bible that was a foundation of this belief system in general,
and it's obviously the Book of Revelations, and there's a
(10:43):
particular passage that gave this group one of their many monikers.
They had a handful. And the passage is called the
Woman in the Dragon, and it's from Revelations twelve through sixteen.
It's gonna read you a little bit of it. A
great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the son,
with the moon under her feet and a crown of
twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried
(11:05):
out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon
with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on
its head. Skip a little bit. Then war broke out
in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he
was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
(11:27):
The great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called
the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
So it's this idea of hell on earth kind of
And what was what were some of the names of
their group, starting with the one that was taken from
this passage that they so held so dear.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
They were collectively known by several names. The weirdest one
was the Woman of the Wilderness. Forty guys calling themselves
the Woman of the Wilderness. It wasn't even like the
women collective of.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
The Woman of the Wilderness, Society of the just the woman.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, that's the weird That's the weird thing about it
is history doesn't seem to completely agree. Some people will
tell you they were just collectively called the Woman in
the Wilderness, and then you'll find a couple of other
places where they say they were the Society of the
Woman of the Wilderness, which makes more sense.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But my favorite, though, is that they were the Hermits
of the Ridge. M Yeah, that's like the name of
a D and D party, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Or the name of the name of like a good
old folksy prairie home companion story.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's true, the old hermit of the ridge. Because the
place we're talking about today, the Cave of Kelpius. Folks
in Philadelphia area just call it the Hermit's Cave.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yep. And the legend has it that Kelpius lived
and meditated in this cave built in the hillside of
the ravine, and that it was you'll hear some people
say that it was just an old spring house where
accasionally Kelpius, where some other person would spend the night.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, and then he would return to his summer house,
you know, in warmer No, I'm kidding, the spring house
like a well house or something like some sort of
enclosure where there would be a well and a source
of fresh water, right.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while they established themselves in what
became known as Hermit's Glenn or the Hermit's Cave in
the Hermit's Glenn, they also made an impression on the town.
There's a nearby road you can find today, we believe,
called Hermit Lane. So this is established. It's not very
well known, i'd say, outside of Philadelphia, but it has
(13:39):
left a physical trace on the city.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That's right. And there's actually a fantastic article from Attles
Obscura called the Cave of Kelpius where America's first doomsday
called awaited the End of the World, And there's a
little sidebar on it that has the coordinates of the cave.
Because it's not exactly something you can Google map to,
because again, like we said, you kind of just have
to wander around and find it yourself. But it is
technically on Hermit Lane.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's You'll have a hard time getting male
sent there exactly, but you can find it with the
coordinates and the space from what we understand, the meeting
space of the hermits, or the society or the just
the woman in the of the wilderness included the following things.
Had a rudimentary observatory where the monks would practice astronomy,
(14:27):
and this is thought to be the first observatory built
in the New World, the quote unquote New World.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and astronomy was a huge deal for these folks,
and there's there's a sense that it was because they
were on the lookout for I'm gonna call them extra terrestrials,
but I almost want to say like heavenly like angels
or something, signs and wonders, because they really did believe that,
you know, like that passages that maybe the devils were
(14:56):
going to come flying down from the sky. What's that
what's that line? I think it's Batman v. Superman where
he says, turns out the devils don't come from below,
they come from above. Yeah, you know, he seemed to
have that in mind when he was looking, and it
was a very for the time advanced telescope.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Right, absolutely, Yeah, they were able to have a very
clear view. Because we have to remember it's very easy
for us nowadays as a species to see a mystical
belief that one group or person has and take that
to mean that we should dismiss their scientific beliefs. It's
(15:35):
not the case. These things exist hand in hand, and
to these people, they were not contradictory, sort of the
same way that Isaac Newton had some really out there
esoteric beliefs.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, are that Rdyard Kipling was kind of a racist?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I was absolutely right. Oh god, what a terrible person.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
The interesting thing too about Kelpia is that we don't know,
We don't have a lot of primary sources on him,
so there's a lot of conjecture. And when you go
to the cave of Kelpius's there's no artifacts left behind,
there's no furniture, it's just out there. There is a marker. Right,
I was put there by a little society. We know
(16:18):
a bit about their philosophy, don't we been the Rosicrution,
the Order of the Roscretions. That's the rose Cross.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
That's right, and all the Order of the Rosy Cross
built a marker for this. And you know, if you
went back in the forties, you would see some stuff
in the cave, like you'd see a chimney that was
there for a while.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think it got vandalized or damaged beyond repair and
so they removed it. But I saw this cool video
that it was cool for a minute and then it
started to lean a little heavily into some not true stuff,
but it did have a really cool walkthrough of the cave.
And I don't know if this was added later. I mean,
it's certainly possible. But there's a there's a cross and
(16:58):
then an upside down cross right next to it, and
the idea being that, like you know, one is the
sign of Christ, the other is the sign of the devil.
And then throughout the space there are some other kind
of strange coded messages. But one thing we do know
is real and not just you know, passers by having
a laugh, is this rosicruci marker that identifies Kelpius as
(17:20):
being the first Rosicrucian in the New World.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, it's it's legit and the chronology works out. The
thing about these semi secret orders, these mysterious esoteric groups,
is that they can often just appoint themselves in, you know,
a point authority to themselves. But according to the tradition,
(17:45):
he's not only the first rouse Krucian, he's the first
Ruse Crucian master. Right, there's some neat articles about this,
Like you can find a lot of local Pennsylvania history places.
I really the explore pahistory dot com story about the marker,
and you can read both the modern marker that is
(18:08):
in place that tells you about the Kelpiest community.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
That's the new one.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
That's right, that's the newer one, and then you can
see the other older stuff that's also spread around there.
It's a shame about the vandalism, you know what I
mean that really that really broke my heart. But we
for we forgot to mention. Okay, so they're millennials, millenearians difference.
There we go, and they had a very specific time
(18:35):
frame for this last judgment, and it was sixteen ninety four,
the year that they all got together in this area, right,
or when they really doubled down but that time came
and went. See that's the problem with a lot of
doomsday cults. They'll predict something and then that moment will
(18:55):
pass and the world will spin on it as it will,
and then they have to find a new way to
understand this. So, according to the Chestnut Hill Local with
the title the Rapture that Never Came, the story of
the Hermits of the Wissa Hicken. According to them, when
sixteen ninety four came and went without a last judgment,
(19:16):
Kelpius and the society said, you know what, we're going
to look toward the year seventeen hundred. Certainly the advent
of this new century will bring about the end of
mankind and the return of Jesus Christ. I mean, you
gotta hope, you know, hope for something better. Right, And
the year arrived there was not, from their perspective, a
(19:39):
return of a Messiah. And then they started to, I
don't know, the members began to get tired of these continual.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Claims, Well, did you hear of the Church of the
sub Genius Ben Yes, yes, sort of a joke cult,
kind of I mean, yes, I'm gonna leave it. That
of a joke call where they worship supposedly this like
fifties clip art like Dad looking ahead with the pipe
called Reverend Jr. Bob Dobbs, and the fundamental concept of
(20:13):
SubGenius is slack. But a big part of them is
they had this thing called X Day, or supposedly these
aliens are gonna come and do very much a thing
that I think the Order of the Hermits or whatever
you want to call them, we're hoping for. But they
got the day wrong because they looked at it upside down,
the big.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Dummies, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And that's just sort of like a little bit thumbing
of the nose that a lot of these death cults
where they always get something a little off and then
you know, oh it'll be next time. Just keep stick
with us, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And again, in the defense of this group of Kelpius's community,
they were not super aggressive, crazy violent agro people.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Like you said. The community even kind of enjoyed their presence. Yeah,
very gentle types, it would seem.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it would seem so. And then as they began
to as enthusiasm at least began to taper off, they
saw the end of the cult becoming more and more immediate.
Because Kelpius it turns out that living in caves with
crushing low temperatures, especially in the winter months, turns out
(21:20):
it's not good for you, no matter how well informed
you are, and no matter how talented of an astronomer
you are.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
No.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We also find that a lot of times people that
are like really driven and obsessed with the quest for
knowledge sometimes don't take the best care of their physical
vessels because they're so busy doing all the maths and stuff,
you know, that they just got time to eat or
you know, put on a blanket.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And Kelpius became ill with tuberculosis. It's around seventeen oh five.
He had to go away from the Tabernacle area and
move into the home of a former member who had
already left the organization in Germantown Proper, and he he lived.
He lived for about three more years.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I believe he was early forties when he passed away.
Seemed quite quite unfortunate and young.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah. Yeah, he never really recovered from that bout of tuberculosis,
and he died in seventeen oh eight. His followers returned,
they took his body to the tabernacle. They buried him
in the garden, and they had a ceremony where they
released a dove as they were lowering him into the ground.
The society itself survived for about another ten years or so,
(22:33):
but without the same drive or enthusiasm.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
It was.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
At some point it got down to just six hardcore believers.
But here we end some of the facts and we
get to some of the real juicy stuff, the legends.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Oh man, this is fun stuff. This is much more
in the realm of our other program. Stuff they don't
want you to know, but it is just so much fun, great,
so great. So. One of Kelpius's most did confidants and
followers was a guy by the name of Geisler. Was
his first name, Daniel, Daniel Geisler, and he was kind
(23:10):
of trying to adhere to the mystical Guru's last wishes
as he was on his deathbed, right.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Because Kelpius gave Geisler a very particular artifact. It was
a box, but it was locked.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah. I like to refer to it as the mystery Box.
I think of that thing in Mulholland Drive, you know,
where they pull out the box and the camera zooms
in and then everything gets real weird. It's like that,
you know, no one knows what's in the box. But
there's a fantastic article from the Voice, The Philly Voice
in fact, called did Wissa, Hick and Hermit have fabled
(23:50):
Philosopher's Stone? Huh? Yeah, Ben, remind us what's the philosopher's stone?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Ah?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yes? Well?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
In the.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Common way to put it, without making it a crazy
metaphor for something, is that it's a legendary substance that
you hear a lot about in alchemical writings that can
turn things into other things. It can transmute substances, so
you'll hear stuff like turning lead into gold, for instance. Right,
that sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like a great stone
(24:21):
to have. Right. It may not be a physical stone
in all the stories. Sometimes it's just the substance, and
sometimes it's thought to be more of a symbol of
a mystical term for the great work in every effort
by alchemist to discover this substance or create it or
(24:44):
reproduce it, where those efforts were collectively known as the
great Work.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
The Great Work.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
So the idea that a mystic like Kelpius would possess
this philosopher's stone is a amazing and astonishing to anybody
who is still searching for it. No, we have to
keep in mind. You know, this is the early early
eighteenth century, so belief in alchemy is still, you know,
(25:12):
much more widespread than it is in twenty eighteen. I
would say.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
So Kelpius is on his deathbed in the throes of
the dreaded tuberculosis. This was the early seventeen hundred and
seventy seventeen o eight and his confidant there Geisler. Geisler is,
I'm just painting a picture here, kneeling by his bedside,
and say, master, Master, what can I do for you
to ease your suffering? Anything? This is totally how it
(25:38):
went down. And to that Kelpius says, well, there is
one thing, my son, Come closer. You know how they
always do that when they're on the deathbed. Then come closer.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I don't have discuss dray, Come closer.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I want you to take hence this box my arcaneum,
and I want you to throw it in the river,
the shool Kill River. How would you say that kill? Yeah,
I want you to throw it in the watery depths
of the shoy Kill. And you know, to this our
boy Geesler, he said, sure, yeah, well of course, and
(26:12):
then and then promptly didn't didn't didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And the the great part of a legends when when
he comes back and he's like, all done, boss uh Kelpius.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
He says, come closer.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah. He raises himself up and he expends what little
energy has to point at him and say, Daniel, thou
hast not done as I bid thee Nor hast thou
cast the casket et into the river, but hast he
didn't near the shore.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And then he was like, you got me, boss, I
was going to try to pick that lock.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And and so now he's convinced.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, no, he's definitely he's definitely convinced. And so he
he he, you know, he finally does it. And what
a disappointment though this guy was, yeah, well, what kind
of fo are you if you can't just follow simple
instructions of a dying mystic?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Is a dying wish?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Seriously?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So what happens though, when he actually does throw it away?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well, according to this account, which was given by Geesler
to a guy by the name of Henry Mullenberg, who
in the Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, was named after
and also he I think he's he started the North
(27:30):
American Lutheran Church or he was a big force in
establishing the North American Lutheran Church. This is again from
this Philly Voice article. It's a very fabulous account because
he says, and this is this is all you know
written down, that as soon as he threw it in
the river exploded.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yes, yeah, like is it? So, help help me get
this straight. Did it explode? Was it a flash of lightning?
Did it come from the box? That's what it almost
sounds like.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, it's a little weird. It's it's it's written as
though it produced some kind of alchemical reaction, some sort
of elemental that's the way I'm looking for reaction. Because
it's described as producing quote producing flashes of lightning and
peals of thunder.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
It made me think when we first were reading about
this of Indiana Jones and the readers of the Lost Arc,
remember where they find somebody ignores the advice and they
open the arc and people melt and there's all this
strange yea at the time, amazing special effects.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, it's also been forever memorialized in an amazing gift
that you can drop whenever someone says something crazy. I yeh,
feel a third down on one of the Nazi's face
melting off and eyes bugging out.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
There we go this account. We should also mention I'm
glad you brought up Henry Mouhnberg because Geisler didn't tell
the pastor about this immediately after, right, it was a
number of years.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But this, this Philly Voice article
does a really good job of pointing out how this
sounds a whole lot more like a kind of literary
device rather than an actual account. You know. They compare
it to King Arthur asking his follower to throw Excalibur
(29:23):
into the lake and then the lady of the lake
reaches aloft and grabs excalibur, you know what I mean,
Like they would have known about those stories. Well, yeah,
but it's like, it's it's very odd that he would
tell this very specific and quite incredible account that to
what end, to help spread the mythos of of this
(29:45):
this mystic.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You know, Yeah, that's that's the interesting question, because obviously
they would have they were quite educated for the time,
they were aware of folklore. They would understand the connections.
Oh and it can't believe we forgot the fun fact there.
These guys are famous for another reason because Christopher Witt
(30:08):
in seventeen oh five painted Kelpia, since believed to be
the oldest oil painting in the US.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Oh, I didn't catch that.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It has nothing to do with magic or allegations there.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Now, art is its own kind of magic and its
own reward.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it.
So this account may be fictitious, it may be solely
a legend.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, and this speculation is coming from a historian from
the Historical Society of Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Roth,
who was interviewed for this piece on Philly Voice dot
com that was written by John Kopp, who was a
staff writer for Philly Voice. So where does that leave
us today?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I do have one other thing. I did see this
video that I was talking about earlier, that it's kind
of cool for a point and then it really starts
to get into like and he was totally looking for aliens,
and Ben Franklin liked it was believed in aliens too,
and Ben Franklin supposedly got possession of all of the
relics and remaining materials that were ever in this cave.
(31:14):
But I found no mention of that anywhere with any
connection between Ben Franklin, other than the fact that the
American Philosophical Society, which was founded by Ben Franklin, does
have two books of Kelpius is in their library. One
of them is the Diarrheum of Magister Johannes Kelpius, and
(31:36):
that is from nineteen seventeen reprinted, so it's not even
an original. And then they also have the Journal of
Johannes Kelpius, Magister of the Hermits on the Ridge in Pennsylvania,
sixteen ninety four seventy eight. So those two I think
are the only surviving actual accounts from Kelpius himself. Yeah,
(31:58):
a lot of there were there maybe was some other
correspondents or something like that, but it was not a
whole lot. None of his actual philosophy is codified in
any kind of like expansive works.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Right right, Those those are the two books that we're
aware of. There is one other, I thought, fascinating paranormal story.
If we want to continue getting with the man. Okay,
so we said that after his death, the Brotherhood, the
society dwindles down at one point. There are just six
(32:31):
let's call them hardcore monks, zelots, ardent believers, and they
were led by a guy named Conrad Mathi Mathi. Let's
go with that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, like ah, Mathi, there we go perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
But eventually the group starts breaking down further and further
and further. And that guy we mentioned, Christopher Witt, who
moved to Germantown. He also quit the uh the group,
but he continued a lot of his hobbies that he
had from his time I'm in the group, and he
did pretty well. By seventeen eighteen, he was a wealthy man.
(33:05):
He had bought over one hundred and twenty acres of land,
but he was always under suspicion in town of being
get this, null a hexenmeister.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Is it like a witchy dude?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yeah, so people thought he was maybe using his magic.
His magical abilities were his esoteric wisdom to get ahead
in the secular world. And they also continued to provide
services of a paranormal or spiritual type to the community.
This guy I just mentioned, Conrad Mathi, cast horoscopes, He
(33:43):
performed exorcisms. He said he could travel outside of his
own body. There was a book called The Pietist of
Provincial Pennsylvania, written by Like Yes, written by a guy
named Julius Sache, who says the following about Conrad. A
captain's wife allegedly asked Conrad in seventeen forty when he
(34:05):
could expect her husband's ship to return. So the guy
goes into his chamber, lays down in a trance for
an hour. Then he wakes up. He comes back in
and he tells this lady her husband is at a
London coffee house and he's preparing to set sail for
the New World. And when the captain returns, you know,
(34:26):
several months later whatever, he meets Conrad. And then the
first thing he says, again according to this story, is
that he was in a London coffee house and saw
the dude Conrad himself, staring at him. And he said
he remembered the encounter because apparently the old man Conrad
had come up and yelled to him about not writing
(34:46):
to his wife. That's got to be total malarchy, rude.
But what a great story.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, that's a good one. Good way to cap this
one off. You got anything else?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
You know what I think we can call it? Oh? No,
do you hear that.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Really.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Oh man, it's.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Been so long.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
We had such a streak going.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
It's actually it's been so.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Long Jonathan Strickland quiz. You've been working on that laugh.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You've been celebrating. Gentlemen. Missing satellite's weird, have you. It's
like the way you miss a like a sharp pain
in your side.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Well suddenly you wake up one morning and you think, oh,
that's different.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yes, that's kind of miss it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Now, that's very sweet of you.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Day after a chiropractor kind of longing.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Well, just consider me your spinal adjustment of love. Here.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
I am all right to give you yet another perplexing scenario.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Whereupon you must decide whether or not it is truth
or fiction within the span of thirty minutes.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
You know, I put forth a perplexing scenario or a
notion that my theory is that you we haven't seen
you for so long because you're going around and messing
with other podcasts that we don't know about.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Have you been podcast cheating on us? Man?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I listen, Ben, listen, listen, hey, listen, Ben. Things are
complicated right now. Check my Facebook status.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Oh man, it's just you never know when someone needs
to be, you know, shown up by wow, having to
prove their ability.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I had a proposed strengths.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I have defended you on this show.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Listen, Ben, listen, listen. No mortgages don't pay themselves. Bend
all right, you know what we.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Uster caves don't come cheap most the.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Most cringe worthy segment and all the podcasting yet again.
And of course here we have recently celebrated the fourth
of July.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That is true, that is true.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
In fact today is the fifth of July. In fact,
as we record this stuff in July. And so the
question today, our scenario today has to do with someone
who was very much connected to the declaration of independence.
And so you will get your scenario the time I
(37:12):
will start at three minutes. You will of course have
to ask questions of me, and I.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Use that one with the constitution. Is that going to
be a problem we will see.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
But in order in order to ask a question this time,
I always give you an arbitrary rule. Yes, time, if
you wish to ask a question me, you must first
say sit down, John.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
All right.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Reference to a musical called seventeen seventy six, Go watch
it Noel.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
All right, here's your scenario.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Prepare yourself and start the timer.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
When I am done, Hey, let me warm up, because,
as longtime listeners know, I have to get a running
start to jump and hit the hit the second hand
in this Grandfather clock. We spent so much money on it.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
If you could get the touch screen on that Grandfather
clock activated and just unlock it now so that you
can hype in the number.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Here we go, we're working live man.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Along with doctor Lyman Hall and George Walton Button, Gwinette
signed the Declaration of Independence representing the Colony of Georgia.
He would return to Georgia to serve as president. He
also maintained a rivalry with Lachlan Macintosh, a Scotsman who
(38:22):
served in the American Army as a brigadier general, which
was a position that Gwinette had coveted. Gwinett commanded Macintosh
to conduct an invasion of East Florida during the Revolution.
The invasion was a terrible failure. The two men blamed
one another for the fiasco and it all resulted in
a duel. However, on the morning the duel was to
(38:44):
take place in southern Georgia, near the border of Florida.
As Button Gwinette walked his way to Lachland Macintosh, he
was bitten by a venomous snake suspected by historians to
be a coral snake. And while the bite itself might
not have been fatal, the medical attention that was given
to him certainly was, and he died of infection a
(39:05):
week and a half later.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Start the clock, all right, we are start, give me
a running start. Boom. Okay, sit down, John, yes, mister Bolin,
could you tell us again where this duel allegedly took place.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Southern Georgia, not too far from the border of Florida, Okay,
near what is now known as Fort McIntosh. As as
it turns.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Out, and Button Gwinnette, so we know there's a Gwinnette county.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
We know about Button. I remember him from Georgia history
as a boy, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And McIntosh is a common name for institutions here in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Was confused Button Gwinnette with Oglethorpe. Though, just like I do,
the declaration of independs with the Constitution. I am a
really bad historian.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
You know, We're not bad. No, we're ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That's right, that's our whole thing's so.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
One thing I don't remember from Georgia history is hearing
anything about a snake bit but.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Right also coral snakes. That's standing out to me. I
am very tempted to just go false.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, you just well, do we sit down? John is
the is the kicker that he died from poor medical
like we we are we it's been so long are
we trying to discern if like any detail of the
story is true, the whole thing is not true. If
if if you're saying he died from poor medical attention,
but then there was a detail in there that.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Was any one detail there could make this statement that's false.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
That is how that works.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So it is either all true or all false, or
there's some falsehood in it. But if there's just some falsehood.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
In it is still inherently okay, all or nothing.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I'm locking in false babies, all right? Me personally, I'm
mean I'm rocking.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Let's yeah, yeah, let's let's count it down and make
it official.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Grow three two?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
What false?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Gentlemen, you have defeated me finally, I believe now I'm
only three ahead, you.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Know, one day at a time, man, Yeah, yeah, hey,
Casey key play of Victory music.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Naked naked, a dirge, case and dirge. So here here
are the actual.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yes, there was a duel.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
There was a duel.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
I remember that Button Gwinnette did wish to be Brigadier
general at the American Revolutionary War. Lachlan McIntosh, his political rival,
got that. And then when he returned to Georgia, he
was first elected Speaker of the House of Georgia as
well as a Commander in chief of the of the
Georgia Forces. And he did, in fact order McIntosh to
(41:42):
invade East Florida, British colony.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
It did not go well because McIntosh did not have
the resources needed. He returned to Georgia and then he
proceeded to bad mouth Button Gwinette in front of the
Georgia Assembly.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
You go bad mouth and Button in front of the
assembly man a.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Duel was a changed McIntosh totally shot Button Gwinnette, and
Button Gwinette died about three days later. On May nineteenth,
seventeen seventy seven, a signer of the Declaration of Independence
shot by a soldier who served in the Revolutionary Army.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So no no coral snakes.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
What no coral snakes, not bitten by a snake. He
was merely shot by a.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Scotsman, shot by a Scotsman, just.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
As fatal as it turns out.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Now I'm interested. Maybe I missed this. How did the
Scotsman end up fighting for the American cause?
Speaker 1 (42:34):
He was?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
He was given the position of brigadier general, So they
were both up for consideration for brigadier general rivals, and
Button Gwinnette was passed over. Button Gwinette's closest ally was
doctor Lyman Hall. And as you mentioned, we have a
Gwinnette County. We also have a Hall County. Oh yeah, yeah,
that is where I am from, Hall County.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Okay, getting to know you? Is that where your layer is.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
In Hall County? Heavens? No, are you what an old
fourth ward man?
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Now? Well, Jonathan, what a tremendous pleasure to have finally
started winning some of these, right, Noel.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I know, but I'm not getting enough remorse from you.
I'm not sensing still three ahead. Well, I know, but
I almost feel like you threw us a little bit
of a softball with this one. While I appreciate it,
I also somewhat resent it.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Oh and then I'll come at you extra hard next time.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So what will happen next ridiculous historians? Will the tension
continue to simmer? Will we get closer and closer to
an even score or fall further into the hole. There's
only one way to find out. Well, there are several,
but there's one way we would like you to find out. Yeah,
you know, listen to the show, continue to subscribe to
my twitter feed. You'll find out about it.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Hey, ay, now, yeah, Hey, what's this other show?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I'm not at liberty to say no, what's the other show?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Oh, you guys are making me so paranoid.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
That's fine, that's part of the whole interaction here is paranoia.
But seriously, thank you for coming again, Jonathan Strickland, the
devious quister. We appreciate it, Slash resent it heavily.
Speaker 6 (44:11):
Thanks for helping us learn stuff, man, that's true. Love
you too, and thank you folks for tuning into the show.
We hope you'll join us next time where we talk
about a bunch of states that never were that have
a lot of fun names and stories.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And just just listen to the episode. It'll be good.
In the meantime, you can write to us at ridiculous
at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can check us out on
the typical social media channels. Our preferred method of communication
with our ridiculous historian community is through our Facebook group
of that very name, Ridiculous Historians, And we actually just
came out with an episode that featured some stuff from
(44:46):
that very community and we had a really good time
doing it, and we'll probably do it again. So check
that out and drop some memes or stories or questions
or ideas on there. You might hear it in an episode.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Yes, and you may well hear from us from Casey
Nol and myself. A big thanks, of course, as always
to super producer Casey Pegrom, big thanks to Alex Williams
who composed the track. You know what, Big thanks to
everybody except Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Thanks to Christopher Ossiotis.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Jonathan, you got you're making a stink Facebook. I love
you do know, guys, I'm feeling the emanations of affection here.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
That's mpty is what you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Well, the course of true love never did run smooth. Lee,
Thanks for tuning in everyone, goodbye.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Fellow Ridiculous Historians, we returned you with a classic episode.
It turns out that back in twenty eighteen, Noel and
I and oh our guy Gabe, remember Gabe Lucy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Yeah, Gabeluzier of course.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, we got super into a doomsday cult over there
in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It's true. It's a super cool bit of hidden history
tucked away in Philly and with a hicken Valley park. Gosh,
I hope to stand there with some of.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
The stir Heart grounds.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah. It's a cave where a legend has it, a
doomsday cult once made their home, their HQ, whatever you
want to call, where a cult hangs out and does
their cult thing.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's roll it. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.
(01:14):
Well well, well, no, old friend, here we are on
Ridiculous History, about to about to dive into a topic
that I find endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, We're going to dive into a seahole. What is
a seahole? A cult, a cult hole?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yes? Or a cave hole?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
When I say a seahole, it's more of a c
rectangle really, yeah, because it's a it's a cave, a
man made cave with a rectangular door that was one
of the first ever homes to America's like original doomsday cult.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
My name is Ben. This Ridiculous History is I think
I just mentioned, And of course we are joined as
always with our super producer Casey Pegram. Know the rumors
are true. We're talking about a legitimate doomsday cult. And
you know in another show that you and I do together,
(02:10):
we run into cults on a on a like bi
monthly basis.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Semi regular. Yeah, But in Ridiculous History, man, we don't
deal in rumors. What's the brass tax, my man? Yes,
the brass tax. Take us to a place very familiar
with everyone here known as Philadelphia. See the Cave of
Kelpius is tucked away in a remote section of the
(02:35):
modern day Fairmont Park in Philadelphia, but it's very old.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You could walk past it and not really notice the
history now unless you went inside, right.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's right. In fact, a lot of places that describe
it say, even if you know where you're going, you're
probably a lot less likely to find it rather than
just stumble upon it because it is in like a
heavily wooded kind of blair Witch kind of environment. Right,
It's along the banks of the Wissahickon Creek, and in
sixteen ninety four, a very smart fellow, a scholar, something
(03:14):
of a New Age mystic type, right by the name
of Johannes Kelpius. He brought forty of his followers, all
learned men, from their home in Transylvania, to the newly
settled Germantown, Pennsylvania, because they were escaping religious persecution, because
(03:35):
they were they weren't playing by the book, no good book.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, yeah, they had their own playbook spiritually, and they
believed that the end was nigh. Johannes Kelpius was born
Johann kelp in Transylvania. As you said in sixteen sixty seven.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Is that nominative determinism? Do you think his family, like,
we're maritime folk.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I wonder that's a good question, you know. Also, what
I noticed is given the timeline, this is way before
Bram Stoker made Transylvania a scary place.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Is that weird?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It's going to come up in the next episode We're
going to do I think as well? Oh it is,
it is stay tuned spoiler alert. But yeah, so he
brought these forty they had I think he himself had
what you were starting his chronology. He was born oh yeah, yeah,
and then he was educated m hm yeah. He completed
(04:32):
his education at Bavaria's University of Altdorf, and at the
time it was a very respected high falutint institution there
in Europe. And his name change occurred not because of
vanity so much as because the common practice for scholars
at this day and age was to latinize your name.
(04:53):
Sol became Kelpius. Would mind become Brownius, that's.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Interesting, Bolinnius, Brownius, Pegrimius, Pigrammius, Pagrimius, Begroomius. So while he's
at university, he becomes attracted to, acquainted with, enamored of
a religious movement known as Pietism. This was a reaction
against the Orthodox Lutheranism of the time, and then it
(05:22):
later expanded to include beliefs that, you know, as you said,
with his followers, beliefs that were considered heretical, strange, forbidden knowledge,
possibly a cult. And as he became more and more
immersed in this world, he also began to gather different
(05:42):
people around him. He was a follower of a guy
named Johann Jacob Zimmerman and Zimmerman formed a small group
of like minded people called the Chapter of Perfection.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It's true, and actually I saw him described as such
as a noted German mathematician, astronomer, and defrockt Lutheran minister.
And you know what happens when they defrock you, right, right,
That's like when you pull all the metals off the
general's chest, you know, yeah, and send him with his
tail between his legs.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
You are no longer allowed to practice the spiritual beliefs.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Right, give me your badge and gun, detective.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Exactly, that's the good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And this group led by Zimmerman that Kelpius is a
member of right right around this time, he's maybe twenty
years old and most of the people in the group
are around his age. And the group believed that there
was a new spiritual age imminent, their version of the
one thousand year idea of Christ returning, and that they
(06:41):
had to prepare for this. And I love that you
mentioned Zimmerman being an astronomer, because that was the quantitative
basis for a lot of his arguments.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
That's right, And I just want to say too, Zimmerman
was kind of the one who initially unless I'm reading
this thing correctly. Initially put together this expedition, you know,
it was like a six month boat trip. Yeah yeah,
from from there from Europe to Germantown or Philadelphia area.
But he passed away before it could take off, Right,
(07:12):
So Kelpius kind of became the new de facto leader
of the group.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, the neo Zimmermann.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
This is an interesting part of the story that I
could not I don't know if you found anything, but
I couldn't solve one mystery about this. Estimates say that
around sixteen ninety two, this group, the Chapter of Perfection,
received an offer of free land in Pennsylvania in Germantown
what you mentioned, and a free boat ride over. But
(07:40):
they received it anonymously. Now I had read somewhere that
was from the governor of Pennsylvania. Oh okay, I was
trying to, you know, encourage new settlers to come in,
and offers of religious tolerance was a big part of
early Pennsylvania settlements, right, Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Maybe it wasn't the government though, but I know that
definitely was an effort from the powers that be in
this particular part of the colonies to attract more religiously
free thinking types.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And to populate the land with Europeans of course too. Yeah,
I think you must be spot on. You know. I
love the tantalizing hint of an anonymous person, but I
bet you are one hundred percent correct that it was
the governing structure of the time. But as you said, Zimmerman,
right around the time they're about to leave for what
(08:30):
would become the United States, Zimmerman dies in August of
sixteen ninety three, Kelpius becomes the commander. He leads them.
He leads his group of forty people to a ridge
there above the Wissahicken Gorge. That's such a fun word
to say, too. And there along the fortieth parallel, Kelpius
(08:55):
builds a forty foot square tabernacle because in their philosophy
and their understanding, forty is like the best number, It's
the most important magical number.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I did just find. It was William Penn who apparently
invited the group, And William Penn was the governor, and
I think kind of governed Pennsylvania like its own tear,
like its own entire amous autonomous thing. Yeah, that's right,
so Bend, you know, millennialism.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Is millennialism, from what I understand, is the belief that
the world will expire at a significant date, either either
completely end or some great change will occur. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
That it's big time correct, and that is what these
folks were all about. You may have seen the Fox
television show kind of a bit of an X Files
ripoff called Millennium, but it was all about like the
end times and the end of days and stuff. But
there's a couple of different interpretations of millennialism, and I'm
taking this from the New World Encyclopedia. One of them
(10:00):
is this notion that Christ will come back to Earth
and establish himself an entire new kingdom and rule for
one thousand years, at which point will come the Reckoning,
you know, or some kind of calling of those that
deserve to stick around and those that have to go.
Then there's another version of it where the second Coming
(10:21):
occurs with an immediate culling of the wicked through some
sort of cataclysmic event to trigger a new world order
kind of thing. But whichever one they believed in, the
fact is there was a very specific part of the
Bible that was a foundation of this belief system in general,
and it's obviously the Book of Revelations, and there's a
(10:43):
particular passage that gave this group one of their many monikers.
They had a handful. And the passage is called the
Woman in the Dragon, and it's from Revelations twelve through sixteen.
It's gonna read you a little bit of it. A
great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the son,
with the moon under her feet and a crown of
twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried
(11:05):
out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in heaven, an enormous red dragon
with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on
its head. Skip a little bit. Then war broke out
in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he
was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
(11:27):
The great dragon was hurled down that ancient serpent called
the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth and his angels with him.
So it's this idea of hell on earth kind of
And what was what were some of the names of
their group, starting with the one that was taken from
this passage that they so held so dear.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
They were collectively known by several names. The weirdest one
was the Woman of the Wilderness. Forty guys calling themselves
the Woman of the Wilderness. It wasn't even like the
women collective of.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
The Woman of the Wilderness, Society of the just the woman.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, that's the weird That's the weird thing about it
is history doesn't seem to completely agree. Some people will
tell you they were just collectively called the Woman in
the Wilderness, and then you'll find a couple of other
places where they say they were the Society of the
Woman of the Wilderness, which makes more sense.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But my favorite, though, is that they were the Hermits
of the Ridge. M Yeah, that's like the name of
a D and D party, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Or the name of the name of like a good
old folksy prairie home companion story.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's true, the old hermit of the ridge. Because the
place we're talking about today, the Cave of Kelpius. Folks
in Philadelphia area just call it the Hermit's Cave.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yep. And the legend has it that Kelpius lived
and meditated in this cave built in the hillside of
the ravine, and that it was you'll hear some people
say that it was just an old spring house where
accasionally Kelpius, where some other person would spend the night.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, and then he would return to his summer house,
you know, in warmer No, I'm kidding, the spring house
like a well house or something like some sort of
enclosure where there would be a well and a source
of fresh water, right.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while they established themselves in what
became known as Hermit's Glenn or the Hermit's Cave in
the Hermit's Glenn, they also made an impression on the town.
There's a nearby road you can find today, we believe,
called Hermit Lane. So this is established. It's not very
well known, i'd say, outside of Philadelphia, but it has
(13:39):
left a physical trace on the city.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That's right. And there's actually a fantastic article from Attles
Obscura called the Cave of Kelpius where America's first doomsday
called awaited the End of the World, And there's a
little sidebar on it that has the coordinates of the cave.
Because it's not exactly something you can Google map to,
because again, like we said, you kind of just have
to wander around and find it yourself. But it is
technically on Hermit Lane.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's You'll have a hard time getting male
sent there exactly, but you can find it with the
coordinates and the space from what we understand, the meeting
space of the hermits, or the society or the just
the woman in the of the wilderness included the following things.
Had a rudimentary observatory where the monks would practice astronomy,
(14:27):
and this is thought to be the first observatory built
in the New World, the quote unquote New World.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and astronomy was a huge deal for these folks,
and there's there's a sense that it was because they
were on the lookout for I'm gonna call them extra terrestrials,
but I almost want to say like heavenly like angels
or something, signs and wonders, because they really did believe that,
you know, like that passages that maybe the devils were
(14:56):
going to come flying down from the sky. What's that
what's that line? I think it's Batman v. Superman where
he says, turns out the devils don't come from below,
they come from above. Yeah, you know, he seemed to
have that in mind when he was looking, and it
was a very for the time advanced telescope.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Right, absolutely, Yeah, they were able to have a very
clear view. Because we have to remember it's very easy
for us nowadays as a species to see a mystical
belief that one group or person has and take that
to mean that we should dismiss their scientific beliefs. It's
(15:35):
not the case. These things exist hand in hand, and
to these people, they were not contradictory, sort of the
same way that Isaac Newton had some really out there
esoteric beliefs.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, are that Rdyard Kipling was kind of a racist?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I was absolutely right. Oh god, what a terrible person.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
The interesting thing too about Kelpia is that we don't know,
We don't have a lot of primary sources on him,
so there's a lot of conjecture. And when you go
to the cave of Kelpius's there's no artifacts left behind,
there's no furniture, it's just out there. There is a marker. Right,
I was put there by a little society. We know
(16:18):
a bit about their philosophy, don't we been the Rosicrution,
the Order of the Roscretions. That's the rose Cross.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
That's right, and all the Order of the Rosy Cross
built a marker for this. And you know, if you
went back in the forties, you would see some stuff
in the cave, like you'd see a chimney that was
there for a while.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think it got vandalized or damaged beyond repair and
so they removed it. But I saw this cool video
that it was cool for a minute and then it
started to lean a little heavily into some not true stuff,
but it did have a really cool walkthrough of the cave.
And I don't know if this was added later. I mean,
it's certainly possible. But there's a there's a cross and
(16:58):
then an upside down cross right next to it, and
the idea being that, like you know, one is the
sign of Christ, the other is the sign of the devil.
And then throughout the space there are some other kind
of strange coded messages. But one thing we do know
is real and not just you know, passers by having
a laugh, is this rosicruci marker that identifies Kelpius as
(17:20):
being the first Rosicrucian in the New World.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, it's it's legit and the chronology works out. The
thing about these semi secret orders, these mysterious esoteric groups,
is that they can often just appoint themselves in, you know,
a point authority to themselves. But according to the tradition,
(17:45):
he's not only the first rouse Krucian, he's the first
Ruse Crucian master. Right, there's some neat articles about this,
Like you can find a lot of local Pennsylvania history places.
I really the explore pahistory dot com story about the marker,
and you can read both the modern marker that is
(18:08):
in place that tells you about the Kelpiest community.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
That's the new one.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
That's right, that's the newer one, and then you can
see the other older stuff that's also spread around there.
It's a shame about the vandalism, you know what I
mean that really that really broke my heart. But we
for we forgot to mention. Okay, so they're millennials, millenearians difference.
There we go, and they had a very specific time
(18:35):
frame for this last judgment, and it was sixteen ninety four,
the year that they all got together in this area, right,
or when they really doubled down but that time came
and went. See that's the problem with a lot of
doomsday cults. They'll predict something and then that moment will
(18:55):
pass and the world will spin on it as it will,
and then they have to find a new way to
understand this. So, according to the Chestnut Hill Local with
the title the Rapture that Never Came, the story of
the Hermits of the Wissa Hicken. According to them, when
sixteen ninety four came and went without a last judgment,
(19:16):
Kelpius and the society said, you know what, we're going
to look toward the year seventeen hundred. Certainly the advent
of this new century will bring about the end of
mankind and the return of Jesus Christ. I mean, you
gotta hope, you know, hope for something better. Right, And
the year arrived there was not, from their perspective, a
(19:39):
return of a Messiah. And then they started to, I
don't know, the members began to get tired of these continual.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Claims, Well, did you hear of the Church of the
sub Genius Ben Yes, yes, sort of a joke cult,
kind of I mean, yes, I'm gonna leave it. That
of a joke call where they worship supposedly this like
fifties clip art like Dad looking ahead with the pipe
called Reverend Jr. Bob Dobbs, and the fundamental concept of
(20:13):
SubGenius is slack. But a big part of them is
they had this thing called X Day, or supposedly these
aliens are gonna come and do very much a thing
that I think the Order of the Hermits or whatever
you want to call them, we're hoping for. But they
got the day wrong because they looked at it upside down,
the big.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Dummies, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
And that's just sort of like a little bit thumbing
of the nose that a lot of these death cults
where they always get something a little off and then
you know, oh it'll be next time. Just keep stick
with us, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
And again, in the defense of this group of Kelpius's community,
they were not super aggressive, crazy violent agro people.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Like you said. The community even kind of enjoyed their presence. Yeah,
very gentle types, it would seem.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it would seem so. And then as they began
to as enthusiasm at least began to taper off, they
saw the end of the cult becoming more and more immediate.
Because Kelpius it turns out that living in caves with
crushing low temperatures, especially in the winter months, turns out
(21:20):
it's not good for you, no matter how well informed
you are, and no matter how talented of an astronomer
you are.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
No.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We also find that a lot of times people that
are like really driven and obsessed with the quest for
knowledge sometimes don't take the best care of their physical
vessels because they're so busy doing all the maths and stuff,
you know, that they just got time to eat or
you know, put on a blanket.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And Kelpius became ill with tuberculosis. It's around seventeen oh five.
He had to go away from the Tabernacle area and
move into the home of a former member who had
already left the organization in Germantown Proper, and he he lived.
He lived for about three more years.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I believe he was early forties when he passed away.
Seemed quite quite unfortunate and young.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah. Yeah, he never really recovered from that bout of tuberculosis,
and he died in seventeen oh eight. His followers returned,
they took his body to the tabernacle. They buried him
in the garden, and they had a ceremony where they
released a dove as they were lowering him into the ground.
The society itself survived for about another ten years or so,
(22:33):
but without the same drive or enthusiasm.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
It was.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
At some point it got down to just six hardcore believers.
But here we end some of the facts and we
get to some of the real juicy stuff, the legends.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Oh man, this is fun stuff. This is much more
in the realm of our other program. Stuff they don't
want you to know, but it is just so much fun, great,
so great. So. One of Kelpius's most did confidants and
followers was a guy by the name of Geisler. Was
his first name, Daniel, Daniel Geisler, and he was kind
(23:10):
of trying to adhere to the mystical Guru's last wishes
as he was on his deathbed, right.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Because Kelpius gave Geisler a very particular artifact. It was
a box, but it was locked.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah. I like to refer to it as the mystery Box.
I think of that thing in Mulholland Drive, you know,
where they pull out the box and the camera zooms
in and then everything gets real weird. It's like that,
you know, no one knows what's in the box. But
there's a fantastic article from the Voice, The Philly Voice
in fact, called did Wissa, Hick and Hermit have fabled
(23:50):
Philosopher's Stone? Huh? Yeah, Ben, remind us what's the philosopher's stone?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Ah?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yes? Well?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
In the.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Common way to put it, without making it a crazy
metaphor for something, is that it's a legendary substance that
you hear a lot about in alchemical writings that can
turn things into other things. It can transmute substances, so
you'll hear stuff like turning lead into gold, for instance. Right,
that sounds cool. Yeah, it sounds like a great stone
(24:21):
to have. Right. It may not be a physical stone
in all the stories. Sometimes it's just the substance, and
sometimes it's thought to be more of a symbol of
a mystical term for the great work in every effort
by alchemist to discover this substance or create it or
(24:44):
reproduce it, where those efforts were collectively known as the
great Work.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
The Great Work.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
So the idea that a mystic like Kelpius would possess
this philosopher's stone is a amazing and astonishing to anybody
who is still searching for it. No, we have to
keep in mind. You know, this is the early early
eighteenth century, so belief in alchemy is still, you know,
(25:12):
much more widespread than it is in twenty eighteen. I
would say.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
So Kelpius is on his deathbed in the throes of
the dreaded tuberculosis. This was the early seventeen hundred and
seventy seventeen o eight and his confidant there Geisler. Geisler is,
I'm just painting a picture here, kneeling by his bedside,
and say, master, Master, what can I do for you
to ease your suffering? Anything? This is totally how it
(25:38):
went down. And to that Kelpius says, well, there is
one thing, my son, Come closer. You know how they
always do that when they're on the deathbed. Then come closer.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I don't have discuss dray, Come closer.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I want you to take hence this box my arcaneum,
and I want you to throw it in the river,
the shool Kill River. How would you say that kill? Yeah,
I want you to throw it in the watery depths
of the shoy Kill. And you know, to this our
boy Geesler, he said, sure, yeah, well of course, and
(26:12):
then and then promptly didn't didn't didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And the the great part of a legends when when
he comes back and he's like, all done, boss uh Kelpius.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
He says, come closer.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah. He raises himself up and he expends what little
energy has to point at him and say, Daniel, thou
hast not done as I bid thee Nor hast thou
cast the casket et into the river, but hast he
didn't near the shore.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And then he was like, you got me, boss, I
was going to try to pick that lock.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And and so now he's convinced.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, no, he's definitely he's definitely convinced. And so he
he he, you know, he finally does it. And what
a disappointment though this guy was, yeah, well, what kind
of fo are you if you can't just follow simple
instructions of a dying mystic?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Is a dying wish?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Seriously?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So what happens though, when he actually does throw it away?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Well, according to this account, which was given by Geesler
to a guy by the name of Henry Mullenberg, who
in the Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, was named after
and also he I think he's he started the North
(27:30):
American Lutheran Church or he was a big force in
establishing the North American Lutheran Church. This is again from
this Philly Voice article. It's a very fabulous account because
he says, and this is this is all you know
written down, that as soon as he threw it in
the river exploded.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yes, yeah, like is it? So, help help me get
this straight. Did it explode? Was it a flash of lightning?
Did it come from the box? That's what it almost
sounds like.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, it's a little weird. It's it's it's written as
though it produced some kind of alchemical reaction, some sort
of elemental that's the way I'm looking for reaction. Because
it's described as producing quote producing flashes of lightning and
peals of thunder.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
It made me think when we first were reading about
this of Indiana Jones and the readers of the Lost Arc,
remember where they find somebody ignores the advice and they
open the arc and people melt and there's all this
strange yea at the time, amazing special effects.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, it's also been forever memorialized in an amazing gift
that you can drop whenever someone says something crazy. I yeh,
feel a third down on one of the Nazi's face
melting off and eyes bugging out.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
There we go this account. We should also mention I'm
glad you brought up Henry Mouhnberg because Geisler didn't tell
the pastor about this immediately after, right, it was a
number of years.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. But this, this Philly Voice article
does a really good job of pointing out how this
sounds a whole lot more like a kind of literary
device rather than an actual account. You know. They compare
it to King Arthur asking his follower to throw Excalibur
(29:23):
into the lake and then the lady of the lake
reaches aloft and grabs excalibur, you know what I mean,
Like they would have known about those stories. Well, yeah,
but it's like, it's it's very odd that he would
tell this very specific and quite incredible account that to
what end, to help spread the mythos of of this
(29:45):
this mystic.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You know, Yeah, that's that's the interesting question, because obviously
they would have they were quite educated for the time,
they were aware of folklore. They would understand the connections.
Oh and it can't believe we forgot the fun fact there.
These guys are famous for another reason because Christopher Witt
(30:08):
in seventeen oh five painted Kelpia, since believed to be
the oldest oil painting in the US.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Oh, I didn't catch that.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
It has nothing to do with magic or allegations there.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Now, art is its own kind of magic and its
own reward.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it.
So this account may be fictitious, it may be solely
a legend.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, and this speculation is coming from a historian from
the Historical Society of Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Roth,
who was interviewed for this piece on Philly Voice dot
com that was written by John Kopp, who was a
staff writer for Philly Voice. So where does that leave
us today?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I do have one other thing. I did see this
video that I was talking about earlier, that it's kind
of cool for a point and then it really starts
to get into like and he was totally looking for aliens,
and Ben Franklin liked it was believed in aliens too,
and Ben Franklin supposedly got possession of all of the
relics and remaining materials that were ever in this cave.
(31:14):
But I found no mention of that anywhere with any
connection between Ben Franklin, other than the fact that the
American Philosophical Society, which was founded by Ben Franklin, does
have two books of Kelpius is in their library. One
of them is the Diarrheum of Magister Johannes Kelpius, and
(31:36):
that is from nineteen seventeen reprinted, so it's not even
an original. And then they also have the Journal of
Johannes Kelpius, Magister of the Hermits on the Ridge in Pennsylvania,
sixteen ninety four seventy eight. So those two I think
are the only surviving actual accounts from Kelpius himself. Yeah,
(31:58):
a lot of there were there maybe was some other
correspondents or something like that, but it was not a
whole lot. None of his actual philosophy is codified in
any kind of like expansive works.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Right right, Those those are the two books that we're
aware of. There is one other, I thought, fascinating paranormal story.
If we want to continue getting with the man. Okay,
so we said that after his death, the Brotherhood, the
society dwindles down at one point. There are just six
(32:31):
let's call them hardcore monks, zelots, ardent believers, and they
were led by a guy named Conrad Mathi Mathi. Let's
go with that.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, like ah, Mathi, there we go perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
But eventually the group starts breaking down further and further
and further. And that guy we mentioned, Christopher Witt, who
moved to Germantown. He also quit the uh the group,
but he continued a lot of his hobbies that he
had from his time I'm in the group, and he
did pretty well. By seventeen eighteen, he was a wealthy man.
(33:05):
He had bought over one hundred and twenty acres of land,
but he was always under suspicion in town of being
get this, null a hexenmeister.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Is it like a witchy dude?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yeah, so people thought he was maybe using his magic.
His magical abilities were his esoteric wisdom to get ahead
in the secular world. And they also continued to provide
services of a paranormal or spiritual type to the community.
This guy I just mentioned, Conrad Mathi, cast horoscopes, He
(33:43):
performed exorcisms. He said he could travel outside of his
own body. There was a book called The Pietist of
Provincial Pennsylvania, written by Like Yes, written by a guy
named Julius Sache, who says the following about Conrad. A
captain's wife allegedly asked Conrad in seventeen forty when he
(34:05):
could expect her husband's ship to return. So the guy
goes into his chamber, lays down in a trance for
an hour. Then he wakes up. He comes back in
and he tells this lady her husband is at a
London coffee house and he's preparing to set sail for
the New World. And when the captain returns, you know,
(34:26):
several months later whatever, he meets Conrad. And then the
first thing he says, again according to this story, is
that he was in a London coffee house and saw
the dude Conrad himself, staring at him. And he said
he remembered the encounter because apparently the old man Conrad
had come up and yelled to him about not writing
(34:46):
to his wife. That's got to be total malarchy, rude.
But what a great story.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, that's a good one. Good way to cap this
one off. You got anything else?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
You know what I think we can call it? Oh? No,
do you hear that.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Really.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Oh man, it's.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Been so long.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
We had such a streak going.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
It's actually it's been so.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Long Jonathan Strickland quiz. You've been working on that laugh.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You've been celebrating. Gentlemen. Missing satellite's weird, have you. It's
like the way you miss a like a sharp pain
in your side.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Well suddenly you wake up one morning and you think, oh,
that's different.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yes, that's kind of miss it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Now, that's very sweet of you.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Day after a chiropractor kind of longing.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Well, just consider me your spinal adjustment of love. Here.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
I am all right to give you yet another perplexing scenario.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Whereupon you must decide whether or not it is truth
or fiction within the span of thirty minutes.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
You know, I put forth a perplexing scenario or a
notion that my theory is that you we haven't seen
you for so long because you're going around and messing
with other podcasts that we don't know about.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Have you been podcast cheating on us? Man?
Speaker 3 (36:05):
I listen, Ben, listen, listen, hey, listen, Ben. Things are
complicated right now. Check my Facebook status.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Oh man, it's just you never know when someone needs
to be, you know, shown up by wow, having to
prove their ability.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I had a proposed strengths.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I have defended you on this show.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Listen, Ben, listen, listen. No mortgages don't pay themselves. Bend
all right, you know what we.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Uster caves don't come cheap most the.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Most cringe worthy segment and all the podcasting yet again.
And of course here we have recently celebrated the fourth
of July.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That is true, that is true.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
In fact today is the fifth of July. In fact,
as we record this stuff in July. And so the
question today, our scenario today has to do with someone
who was very much connected to the declaration of independence.
And so you will get your scenario the time I
(37:12):
will start at three minutes. You will of course have
to ask questions of me, and I.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Use that one with the constitution. Is that going to
be a problem we will see.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
But in order in order to ask a question this time,
I always give you an arbitrary rule. Yes, time, if
you wish to ask a question me, you must first
say sit down, John.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
All right.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Reference to a musical called seventeen seventy six, Go watch
it Noel.
Speaker 5 (37:37):
All right, here's your scenario.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Prepare yourself and start the timer.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
When I am done, Hey, let me warm up, because,
as longtime listeners know, I have to get a running
start to jump and hit the hit the second hand
in this Grandfather clock. We spent so much money on it.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
If you could get the touch screen on that Grandfather
clock activated and just unlock it now so that you
can hype in the number.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Here we go, we're working live man.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Along with doctor Lyman Hall and George Walton Button, Gwinette
signed the Declaration of Independence representing the Colony of Georgia.
He would return to Georgia to serve as president. He
also maintained a rivalry with Lachlan Macintosh, a Scotsman who
(38:22):
served in the American Army as a brigadier general, which
was a position that Gwinette had coveted. Gwinett commanded Macintosh
to conduct an invasion of East Florida during the Revolution.
The invasion was a terrible failure. The two men blamed
one another for the fiasco and it all resulted in
a duel. However, on the morning the duel was to
(38:44):
take place in southern Georgia, near the border of Florida.
As Button Gwinette walked his way to Lachland Macintosh, he
was bitten by a venomous snake suspected by historians to
be a coral snake. And while the bite itself might
not have been fatal, the medical attention that was given
to him certainly was, and he died of infection a
(39:05):
week and a half later.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Start the clock, all right, we are start, give me
a running start. Boom. Okay, sit down, John, yes, mister Bolin,
could you tell us again where this duel allegedly took place.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Southern Georgia, not too far from the border of Florida, Okay,
near what is now known as Fort McIntosh. As as
it turns.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Out, and Button Gwinnette, so we know there's a Gwinnette county.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
We know about Button. I remember him from Georgia history
as a boy, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And McIntosh is a common name for institutions here in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Was confused Button Gwinnette with Oglethorpe. Though, just like I do,
the declaration of independs with the Constitution. I am a
really bad historian.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
You know, We're not bad. No, we're ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
That's right, that's our whole thing's so.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
One thing I don't remember from Georgia history is hearing
anything about a snake bit but.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Right also coral snakes. That's standing out to me. I
am very tempted to just go false.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, you just well, do we sit down? John is
the is the kicker that he died from poor medical
like we we are we it's been so long are
we trying to discern if like any detail of the
story is true, the whole thing is not true. If
if if you're saying he died from poor medical attention,
but then there was a detail in there that.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Was any one detail there could make this statement that's false.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
That is how that works.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
So it is either all true or all false, or
there's some falsehood in it. But if there's just some falsehood.
Speaker 5 (40:43):
In it is still inherently okay, all or nothing.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I'm locking in false babies, all right? Me personally, I'm
mean I'm rocking.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Let's yeah, yeah, let's let's count it down and make
it official.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Grow three two?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
What false?
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Gentlemen, you have defeated me finally, I believe now I'm
only three ahead, you.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Know, one day at a time, man, Yeah, yeah, hey,
Casey key play of Victory music.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Naked naked, a dirge, case and dirge. So here here
are the actual.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Yes, there was a duel.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
There was a duel.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
I remember that Button Gwinnette did wish to be Brigadier
general at the American Revolutionary War. Lachlan McIntosh, his political rival,
got that. And then when he returned to Georgia, he
was first elected Speaker of the House of Georgia as
well as a Commander in chief of the of the
Georgia Forces. And he did, in fact order McIntosh to
(41:42):
invade East Florida, British colony.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
It did not go well because McIntosh did not have
the resources needed. He returned to Georgia and then he
proceeded to bad mouth Button Gwinette in front of the
Georgia Assembly.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
You go bad mouth and Button in front of the
assembly man a.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Duel was a changed McIntosh totally shot Button Gwinnette, and
Button Gwinette died about three days later. On May nineteenth,
seventeen seventy seven, a signer of the Declaration of Independence
shot by a soldier who served in the Revolutionary Army.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So no no coral snakes.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
What no coral snakes, not bitten by a snake. He
was merely shot by a.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Scotsman, shot by a Scotsman, just.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
As fatal as it turns out.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Now I'm interested. Maybe I missed this. How did the
Scotsman end up fighting for the American cause?
Speaker 1 (42:34):
He was?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
He was given the position of brigadier general, So they
were both up for consideration for brigadier general rivals, and
Button Gwinnette was passed over. Button Gwinette's closest ally was
doctor Lyman Hall. And as you mentioned, we have a
Gwinnette County. We also have a Hall County. Oh yeah, yeah,
that is where I am from, Hall County.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Okay, getting to know you? Is that where your layer is.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
In Hall County? Heavens? No, are you what an old
fourth ward man?
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Now? Well, Jonathan, what a tremendous pleasure to have finally
started winning some of these, right, Noel.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I know, but I'm not getting enough remorse from you.
I'm not sensing still three ahead. Well, I know, but
I almost feel like you threw us a little bit
of a softball with this one. While I appreciate it,
I also somewhat resent it.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Oh and then I'll come at you extra hard next time.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So what will happen next ridiculous historians? Will the tension
continue to simmer? Will we get closer and closer to
an even score or fall further into the hole. There's
only one way to find out. Well, there are several,
but there's one way we would like you to find out. Yeah,
you know, listen to the show, continue to subscribe to
my twitter feed. You'll find out about it.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Hey, ay, now, yeah, Hey, what's this other show?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I'm not at liberty to say no, what's the other show?
Speaker 2 (43:55):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Oh, you guys are making me so paranoid.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
That's fine, that's part of the whole interaction here is paranoia.
But seriously, thank you for coming again, Jonathan Strickland, the
devious quister. We appreciate it, Slash resent it heavily.
Speaker 6 (44:11):
Thanks for helping us learn stuff, man, that's true. Love
you too, and thank you folks for tuning into the show.
We hope you'll join us next time where we talk
about a bunch of states that never were that have
a lot of fun names and stories.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And just just listen to the episode. It'll be good.
In the meantime, you can write to us at ridiculous
at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can check us out on
the typical social media channels. Our preferred method of communication
with our ridiculous historian community is through our Facebook group
of that very name, Ridiculous Historians, And we actually just
came out with an episode that featured some stuff from
(44:46):
that very community and we had a really good time
doing it, and we'll probably do it again. So check
that out and drop some memes or stories or questions
or ideas on there. You might hear it in an episode.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Yes, and you may well hear from us from Casey
Nol and myself. A big thanks, of course, as always
to super producer Casey Pegrom, big thanks to Alex Williams
who composed the track. You know what, Big thanks to
everybody except Jonathan.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Thanks to Christopher Ossiotis.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Jonathan, you got you're making a stink Facebook. I love
you do know, guys, I'm feeling the emanations of affection here.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
That's mpty is what you're feeling.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Well, the course of true love never did run smooth. Lee,
Thanks for tuning in everyone, goodbye.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple
Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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