July 20, 2024 • 46 mins
Nowadays people across the planet are familiar with the story of Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot. People even celebrate the anniversary of the event, often interpreting it as a protest againt overarching government authority. However, as Ben and Noel learn in today's Classic episode, the real story is a bit more complicated. Some historians believe Fawkes and the crew he worked for were set up by factions of the government -- making the Gunpowder Plot something between a false flag attack and a killer marketing campaign.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Remember remember the fifth of November. It's a thing that
we reference pretty often in this classic episode which is
about Guy Fox, but maybe not in the way you think.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Was it the Gunpowder treason and plot? Was that? The
next line I always associated with V for Vendetta. Oh wonderful,
Alan Moore, there is If you guys are you're missing
your Game of Thrones, well your luck because House of
the Dragon just came back on and it's also a
pretty strong start. I kind of forgot what a good
(00:33):
cliffhanger that first season ended up. It kind of won
me over in the end. But Kit Harrington, who played
John Snow in the original Game of Thrones series, now
is starting in a series on Apple TV I believe
called Gunpowder that is the story of the Gunpowder plot,
of which Guy Fox was a participants. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, and there has been such tremendous interest in Guy
Fox because of as you mentioned, V for Vendetta, also
because the decentralized hacking group Anonymous use the Guy Fowx mask. Yeah,
and there is still a bit of a conspiracy of
(01:15):
foot depending on which historian you ask.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I don't haven't seen the series yet, but I have
a feeling that some of this stuff is addressed in
Gunpowder because I thought that Guy Fox was like the
main guy. Uh no, pun intended. But when I was
looking up to see, like, oh, is this is this
series actually about this? There is another person who is
the leader of the ring leader, you know, in a
(01:39):
big way. Guy Fox is kind of just one of
the underlings in a way. And so you're right through
that marketing historical revision. Guy Fox kind of became this centerpiece,
became this symbol. But was it something of a false
flag situation? Did he do what he was purported to
(01:59):
have done? What's the real truth behind Guy Fox?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And also would we have wanted him to succeed?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Right here we go.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Okay, so check
(02:42):
this out. In the course of our research for today's episode,
I discovered one of the longest sentences I have read
in a cartoonishly long amount of time.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Do we have time for this? We do? We do?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I just want you to I just want you to
check out how long the sentences. Keep in mind it
is all one sentence.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Give it to my Lord.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Out of the love I bear to some of your friends.
I have a care for your preservation. Therefore, I would
advise you, as you tender your life, to devise some
excuse to shift your attendance at this parliament. For God
and Man have concurred to punish the wickedness of this time.
And think not slightly of this advertisement. But retire yourself
into your country, where you may expect the event in safety.
(03:26):
For though there may be no appearance of any stir
yet I say they shall receive a terrible blow this parliament,
and yet they shall not see who hurts them. This
counsel is not to be condemned, because it may do
you good and can do you no harm. For the
danger is pasted as soon as you have burnt the letter,
and I hope God will give you the grace to
(03:47):
make good use of it, to whose holy protection I
commend you. Holy smokes. My name's Ben, my name is Nolan.
That is the way my mom sends text messages. There
are twelve commas in this paragraph masquerading as a sentence.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, my mom doesn't even bother using commas, did I say?
I'm noll I'm distracted by by the length of that
sentence enough, I'm mulling it over. What does it mean, Ben,
what does it mean?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This is a letter that was sent to the Lord
mont Eagle to warn him of a terrorist plot. A
terrorist plot, you say, yes, yes, one involving gunpowder. I
think you mean the infamous gunpowder plot of November of
sixteen oh five. Remember remember the fifth of November with
(04:34):
gunpowder treason and plot. I see no reason why the
gunpowder treason should ever be forgot right, Yes, yes, the
very same nol And that is why you and I,
along with our super producer Casey Pegram, are delving into
some British history, something that has encountered a resurrection in
(04:59):
terms of popularity in the United States ever since the
two thousand and six release of the film V for Vendetta,
an adaptation of an earlier graphic novel.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right by Alan Moore, and it tells the story of
an anarchist who plots to overthrow sort of a dystopian
future government and uses this mask of the face of
Guy Fox as kind of a symbol of rising up
(05:28):
against the oppressors.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Right, and for many people who learned the broad strokes
of this event in school, Guy Fox is often portrayed
as the primary character, the protagonist or antagonist depending upon
your perspective, it's.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
True, but as it turns out, he was really more of,
I don't know, not a patsy. He knew what he
was getting into, but he certainly wasn't the brains behind
the operation. He was just the poor sap what got caught.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yes, yes, yes, And let's set the stage here for
what exactly happened. Let's start with the facts right before
we get into some of the ridiculousness.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So, Henry Eighth, this guy ruled England, he had six wives,
and at the time the country was Catholic.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean that rotund fellow with the chicken leg at
the Renaissance Fair.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Very same. I think that might be an actor.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I'm pretty sure our nemesis, the quizter Jonathan Strickland, knows
Henry the Eighth, or at least the actor that portrays
him at the Renaissance Fair Peak behind the Curtain, Strickland
spends many of his hours when he's not podcasting and
tormenting us as a Renaissance Fair actor.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yes, yes, and he's been doing it for quite a while.
I bet you're correct. I bet he's plugged into the
Renaissance festival scene.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, if he pops up at some point, we'll have
to ask him about that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, perhaps we can also ask him to sing a
snatch of the famous oldie I'm Henry the Eighth.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, And speaking of Henry the Eighth, I am Henry
the Eighth. I am What role did he play in
kind of setting the stage for this treasonous plot?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yes, excellent question. You see, at the time that he
ruled England, the country was Catholic, at least at first,
because his wife at the time, Catherine of Aragon, could
not bear him a male heir. And because of this,
Henry the Eighth said, well, why are we even married?
(07:31):
What's the point of this matrimony?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, what's a big deal. I mean, if you're trying
to preserve your legacy as the patriarch of an entire nation,
you need yourself. A boy, A prince, A princess just
won't do the trick. These were very misogynistic times, and
if he felt this marriage was fruitless and not bearing
him the desired offspring, then he was going to have
to do something about it. But unfortunately, under the laws
(07:55):
of Catholicism and the pope, divorce just was not thing.
You couldn't You couldn't do it. Even the king couldn't do.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
It, even the king and so so Henry said, you
know what, I'm done with the Church, and he finally
got the divorce he wanted. But this created intense interreligious
confusion because his three children retained Catholic religious beliefs, but
they became politically opposed to the Church's doctrine, and this
(08:27):
led to persecution of Catholics in England.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Absolutely, and a lot of historians conjecture that Henry himself,
behind closed doors pretty much remained Catholic. He was a
Protestant in name only a Pino. Yes, So Henry died
as people tend to do.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I think of gout of rich living right. He had
a very fatty liver, and his son Edward took the throne.
Edward was followed by Mary, and Mary led a Catholic reign,
but when Elizabeth took the throne in fifteen fifty eight,
England switched from a Catholic to a Protestant nation.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Isn't it interesting how he finally got that heir in Edward.
And I think he was kind of a weedy, little
sickly fellow hemophilia and then just did not fit the bill.
And then, of course we have a legacy, despite Henry's
best efforts and throwing his country into religious turmoil, a
succession of very powerful, badass women.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yes, yes, oh what Webb's history weaves. You never quite
know the ending of a tale, right, And Catholics had
discriminatory policies placed against them. They couldn't hold mass, for instance.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's right. Many Catholic priests were imprisoned and even put
to death, and Catholics who refused to attend Protestant services
would be fined, and those fines increased exponentially over the
years as the throne switched hands.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Absolutely, and this is why Catholics who lived in England
under this discriminatory system had high hopes when James of
Scotland became the king, because you know, his mother Mary
was Catholic. Wouldn't he be a little less uncool at least?
And initially he actually waived those fines, which really got
(10:24):
people's hopes up, Catholics specifically thinking okay, we've got a
friend in James, you know, But he pulled the bait
and switch of the century and ended up being even
harsher to Catholics than his predecessor had been. And that's
when people had just had enough and some of these Catholics,
various groups got together and hatched several well known plots
(10:49):
to assassinate James in the hopes of switching the tide
of history and the religious leanings of the country.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, And we think of this period of time usually
in terms of the Gunpowder Plot. But Noel, you raise
an excellent point. It was one of several plots. There
was the by plot spelled like bye bye in sixteenh three,
and their aim was to kidnap James. And then there
(11:20):
was the main plot, of which the Bye plot was
a part, which involved replacing James with his cousin Arabella
Stewart or Arbella Stewart.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And the thing that's interesting about these is like you
have to wonder what were they thinking because it was
largely a Protestant country at this point. I think way
more people were practicing Protestantism than Catholicism. So if they
did succeed, short of recruiting some other country, it will
get into this. With the Gunpowder plot, there were attempts
to attract Spain to aid in the Catholic cause in England.
(11:58):
But what did they expect to happen that all of
a sudden, like all of these Protestants that were the majority,
we're just gonna like decide to be on board and
not see them as utter zealots and terrorists.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Right, yeah, because what we have seen typically is that
across the span of history, extremism does not make for
a welcoming argument, especially to your opponents. Right, So, if
these plots had succeeded, right, and the ruling powers of
the day became Catholic, it's pretty unlikely that all of
(12:36):
the Protestant population would just shrug and say, ah, good game.
That probably wasn't going to happen. But that was not
a consideration in the minds of these conspirators. And these
were actual conspiracies, and all of this because of the
whims of a fat man. Well, you know, no king
(13:00):
is perfect. The plot the gun does it thicken? Yes,
the plot does thicken. The gunpowder plot especially. There's a
great article on how Stuff Works by our friend Candice
Gibson that looks at the germination of the gunpowder plot,
and one way that she describes it, which I love,
(13:22):
is she says, if you can imagine the cast of
the Ocean's Eleven trilogy in breeches and broad callers, you've
got an inklean of the crew assembled to take down
James and leaders of Parliament in the Gunpowder plot.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And that crew was led sort of the brad Pitt
character in this story was a man by the name
of Robert Katsby, and he was a nobleman who had
participated in a previous rebellion known as Essex's Rebellion, which
was another unsuccessful rebellion where the second Earl of Essex
led a charge to depose Elizabeth I of England or
(14:00):
at least kind of splinter her inner circle and influence policy.
And that didn't work. So this guy's already coming into
this with an axe to grind and that rebellious kind
of attitude of not accepting the status quo, and you know,
come hell or high water, he's gonna get his way.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah. He is, in the parlance of our time, a
veteran terrorist. The plan was kill the king, killed James,
and then when his daughter ascends to the throne, marry
her off to a Catholic, thereby redefining England's religious identity.
You can already see here that this master plan is
(14:38):
assuming that the daughter will be a puppet royal right
and has no agency of her own. And I like
your comparison of Katsby as the brad Pitt. Here's the
crew he recruited. He got a guy named John Wright,
a fellow named Thomas Winter, another Thomas, this one Thomas Percy,
and of course Guy Fox. And I think a lot
(15:01):
of people perhaps erroneously assume that Guy Fox was playing
the role that was actually played by Robert Katsby. Guy
Fox came in the mix. He was not the brad Pitt. No,
he was really kind of a heavy. He had a
lot of experience in combat fighting Protestant rebels in the
(15:21):
Spanish Netherlands, and he had kind of gotten at least
maybe not buddy buddy, but close enough to the King
of Spain that he actually asked him for help in
starting an English uprising against James, who was just the enemy.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Of Catholics far and wide. And he even changed his
name or started referring to himself as Guido instead of
Guy in sixteen oh five because it gave him more
of a connection to the papacy in Rome. And sort
of more of a cosmopolitan identity that was tied more
to Catholicism than to being an Englishman.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And we cantice paid the question here did he refer
to himself in third person? We can only hope that
he was one of those people. But what we do
know for sure is that due to his military experience,
he was acquainted with using and more importantly, gaining access
(16:18):
to gunpowder. They spent more than a year, more than
seventeen months or so organizing this plot, and ultimately they
got thirty six barrels of gunpowder, and they rented a
building close to Parliament with the aim of tunneling underground
to place the barrels of gunpowder in the cellars of
(16:43):
the Parliament building.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So, just to just to clarify for me, ben I
kind of got a little little turned around here when
I was reading this. Their goal was to tunnel into
Parliament from this rented basement because it was directly under
the House of Lords. But the idea was that they
would dig tunnels from that basement into the House of Lords.
But I think their plan was foiled by the flooding
of the Thames, which predictably totally jack things up.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Right, yeah, and thwarted their efforts. So they said, not
to be discouraged. Let's go to our backup plan, Plan
B for backup. And while they were working on this plan,
Thomas Winter's boss, a fellow named Lord mont Eagle, who
we mentioned earlier in the episode, he tipped off, according
(17:31):
to the story, a fellow named Robert Cecil, who was
the Earl of Salisbury at the time.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Salisbury. Yes, like the state, like the steak.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I love how both of us immediately went to that association.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, that's that was the good lunch day in school
for me. It was Salisbury's state day.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
You were a rectangle pizza guy.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I did like rectangle pizza too.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I thought like rectangle pizza was solid.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
A slight interjection here, Ben, This guy Cecil was also
a hugely important figure and Elizabeth their court and one
of the targets of that revolt we mentioned earlier Essex's
revolt that our boy cats be helped orchestrate. So they
had beef previous to this, and they knew of each other,
(18:13):
and that's going to come into play in a really cool,
interesting way.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And now we enter into the realm of full on conspiracy.
We can go a couple of different directions with this.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Let's go all of the directions.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Let's go all of the directions at once, like a Wonkavator,
right exactly, So, someone in the know, someone with advanced
knowledge of the gunpowder plot, sent the letter with that
cartoonishly long sentence we read at the top of the
show to Lord mont Eagle, advising him, as you could hear,
to avoid the ceremony in the House of the Lords
(18:53):
that day.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And that's because he was a Catholic, and it was
somebody involved in the plot that wanted to protect him
from being to hell. And there are historical perspective that
say several of the conspirators sent letters to various other
Catholics that would have been present, potentially to warn them
not to go right.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And there's an excellent article on BBC. There's actually a
lot of research into this idea, but there's an excellent
article in BBC by Adam Donald called was guy Fox
a wait for it, no fall guy?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Huh? All right, Well I liked it. Wait, I don't
think I get it A.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Guy Fox of fall Guys?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I got it, I got it. More like a
fall Guido. There we go. Yes, there we go.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So the official course of events is that mont Eagle
sends the letter to Cecil the Earl of Salisbury, and
Salisbury is the one who makes the call to search
the Palace of Westminster, wherein guy Fox is discovered alone
in the cellars, surrounded by barrels of gunpowder. Talk about
being red handed.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
And not only that, he had a slow burning fuse
on him. You know, picture any traditional fuse that you
would attach to dynamie that you can light and so
it burns slow enough for you to get the hell
out of there. He had one of those on him.
He also had a clock on him, a pocket watch
that Catsbury had given him so that they could synchronize
the timeline of it all, so that he could set
the fuse ablaze at just the right moment.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Right, because just like the joker in the Christopher Nolan
Batman thing, it's about sending a message, right, It's true.
And so Fox is caught, he is tortured, and he
stands up pretty well under this horrific torture, and torture
was actually illegal in the United Kingdom at the time,
(20:44):
but James made a special concession. It's to me, you know,
that sort of calls into question the idea of legality
if you can just like make an exception for this one, right,
you know, this one guy that really.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Really has it coming. So he signs a confession ultimately
after giving up his co conspirators, and you can find
this confession online and it's like you can tell that
whoever signed it did not have full use of their hand,
so he probably either had fingers removed or smashed with
you know, who knows what horrible things they would have done.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, it may indeed have been so traumatized that he
didn't understand the full text of what he was signing.
But he did sign it, Guido. But he did sign
it Guido. The other conspirators fled or perished in a
skirmish with the Crown. Those that were remaining, and most
famously Guy or Guido Fox, were sentenced to being hanged,
(21:38):
drawn and quartered. But here is where the historical narrative
begins to come into some conflict points, because you see
friends and neighbors that there are stories that will tell
you that the official narrative was a little more sanitized
(21:59):
than the actual events. And there are some that will
go so far as to say that Cecil was planning
a false flag attack.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, that he actually blackmailed Catsby to set this whole
operation in motion, all the while monitoring everything. He even,
you know, supposedly, according to some versions of the story,
set kind of a honey trap in this space that
they were able to lease that just happened to be
right underneath the House of Lords. That he was responsible
(22:31):
for that, and that it was all in the name
of this like false flag campaign to further demonize Catholics
and make them out to be these utter looney tune
zealot extremists.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, exactly, the idea being that he was his day
and age's version of a marketing genius, because it would
have more impact. The argument goes on the Protestant public
and on the government if the Catholic extremists were not
just caught talking in a tavern about doing this, but
(23:07):
if they were caught red handed at virtually the moment
before disaster struck. So the idea here is that we
the espionage apparatus that Cecil has constructed, the idea being
that we would wait and let things play out and
let the conspirators believe that they're working in secrecy. Allowing
(23:30):
them to plot until the last minute, so that the
people of England would understand just how very very very
very close they came to losing the king. Except that
probably isn't true either.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Cecil's biographer, a woman named Pauline Croft, had this to
say about the likelihood of that particular version of events
in the inflamed atmosphere after November sixteen oh five, with
wild accusations and counter accusations being traded by religious polemicists,
there were allegations that Cecil himself had devised the gunpowder
plot to elevate his own importance in the eyes of
(24:03):
the king and to facilitate a further attack on the Jesuits.
Numerous subsequent efforts to substantiate these conspiracy theories have all
failed abysmally. But there is no doubt that Cecil again,
he'd been in this since Elizabeth. He had been very
close member of her court and continued to wield significant power.
I mean, he's the one who, after all called for
(24:25):
the Parliament to be searched. You know, whether that was
just a clever subterfuge or but you know, he definitely
wielded control. He had goons that he could deploy right.
But what ended up happening with Guy Fox? He was
sentenced to being drawn and quartered. But yeah, which means
having your guts pulled out in front of you, after
(24:47):
being hanged almost to death. They take you down, they
pull out your guts, and they cut off your testicles,
this pretty grizzly stuff, and they drag you.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
They don't walk you to the gallows. They drag you
to the gallows via horse.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And then they split your carcass into four pieces and
send them to the four corners of the kingdom as
a warning to all those who would dare you defy
the order of the crown.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
And Guy Fox knew this was a possibility. He knew,
and so he went out on his own terms.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
What do you do know? He took a dive, man,
He took a swan dive from the gallows and broke
his own neck.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
He broke his own neck. Rather than submitting to the
lengthy degradations of being drawn and quartered, he went for
a quicker death, arguably a cleaner one, I would say.
And I like the point about Cecil's biographer, because even
today you will see historians disagreeing about this or arguing
(25:44):
different perspectives. For instance, in the book The Gunpowder Plot,
Terror and Faith in sixteen oh five, author Antonia Frasier
argues that there's not just evidence that the whole thing
was some kind of deeper conspiracy than the history books say,
but she also argues that the letter itself, the famous
(26:06):
warning letter, was fake, and that both mont Eagle and
Cecil knew it was fake. She also says that mont
Eagle may have even written the letter himself. In her opinion,
this is a quote nothing else makes sense of Salisbury's
extraordinary urbanity. One might even call it complacency. In the
day's following. There was certainly no sense of the impending
(26:29):
danger in his conduct, such as might have been expected
if the letter had presented him with a genuine mystery.
So this this is strange. But as a counterpoint to this, again,
this was not the Earl's first rodeo, absolutely not, and
just a quick aside. Lord mont Eagle was the friend
(26:49):
and brother in law of conspirator Francis Tresham, and he
was worried that you know, his pal and you know
brother in law would be blown up in this attempt,
and so he supposedly sent him that letter but I
see what you're saying, Ben. I mean, there's a lot
of a lot of loose ends in this story to
(27:09):
this day. And you know, the strange thing is when
the rubber hits the road at the bottom line. Whatever
the aims of the gunpowder plot, as it would be
perceived by the public, it did end up making things
worse for Catholics in England absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I mean, Guy Fox became this symbol of treason, and
they declared a national holiday, I guess Guy Fox Day
or Guy fowx Night or Bonfire Night where children would
sell these little effigies of Guy Fox. They'd say a penny,
(27:49):
what is it? A penny for the guy, penny for
the guy. That's it. They'd have these little wheelbarrows and
go around and then people would set them on fire.
So this guy bore the brunt historically for this whole thing.
It turns out he was a bit more of a
side guy just happened to be the one caught with
his pants down his match out.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
There are other lines of thought you will hear from
people arguing both for this conspiracy and for this conspiracy
theory rather and against it. One of the common arguments
for the involvement of the crown was that only the
state possessed gunpowder, but according to scholars, that is a
myth and nonsense, with the argument the rebuttal being that
(28:31):
almost every gentleman in the early seventeenth century in that
part of the world would have had a stock of gunpowder.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
We probably should have talked about this upfront, and we
mentioned guy's backstory, but he actually was a Protestant by
birth and didn't convert to Catholicism until he was a teen.
And I think it's so interesting how, you know, you
think of Catholicism as like sort of the first form
of Christianity in a lot of ways, but how over time,
because of the decisions and the sort of whim of
(29:00):
Henry the Eighth, it created this huge divide and had
you know, people at each other's throats simply because of
the religion that they practiced. And obviously as tale as
old as time and.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right, when we think of Catholicism in Europe at the time,
if not in England, it's functioning as a state power.
You know, it's an inarguable authority in many parts of
the region. Fox was not just anti Protestantism. There there's
also a component of anti Scottish sentiment because, as it
(29:34):
turned out, he was fiercely anti Scottish. He believed that
there was a natural hostility between the English and the
Scots that would make it impossible to reconcile the two
nations for any sustainable length of time. That comes from
the Gunpowder plot in History Today by an author named
Pauline croft Man.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It turns out that Fox was kind of a tough
bastard too. I mean, he went two days, i think,
being the only person in custody tied to this plot,
and you know, went through the tortures of the damned
to quote clockwork orange, and he said the reason he
participated in this plan and the whole purpose was to
quote blow you Scotch beggars back to your native mountains.
(30:15):
So there's definitely some anti Scottish sentiment there. But King
James the First reportedly kind of liked the cut of
his jib in a way because he, you know, he
said he had a quote Roman resolution, and so despite
you know, sending him to the most horrible Hellish and
you could possibly imagine he respected the guy a little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, grudgingly, and that that Roman resolution was was quite
possibly a Catholic name drop or reference point.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Ben.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So now we are in a situation where you can
still hear historians, biographers and other scholars argue about the
nature of essentially a deep state, right or the existence
rather of a deep state in England at the time.
Regardless of where you fall in this conversation, one thing
(31:11):
is for sure for actual facts. Sure a phrase we
stole from our fellow Pyecaster Louren Voclbam, and that fact
is this guy Fox was not the leader. Guy Fox
was the fellow who got caught with the gunpowder. He
was the man who endured torture for two days without
rolling over on his co conspirators. But he was not
(31:35):
the mastermind that he is so often portrayed as being
in modern recounts of the story.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, but he does have a place in history as
this symbol of revolution, and that is the role that
that mask en v for Vendetta plays. That is the
role that that mask plays in the occupy movement, and
anonymous in any use of that image is very much
tied to some form of fighting back against something perceived
(32:05):
as being fascist or a regime that does not value
individual liberties, and that is trying to crush you under
their you know, giant thumb or boot right.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
This symbolic legacy or dynasty continues on today and this
might be interesting to you as well. Guy Fox. The
name guy enters the English lexicon as the noun guy,
like I saw a guy or this guy, or you
know you're in you're in a seven to eleven somewhere
(32:35):
and you say, ah my guy, let me get a slushy.
I think that's cool because I love calling people guy.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah. Guy. And after all this went down and Guy
Fox Day or Guy Fox Nighter, Bonfire Night became a
thing in England. It was a sort of a celebration
of the physical demo eyes of this human and the
foiling of that gunpowder plot and like you said, furthered
(33:06):
anti Catholic sentiment. But today it's still a thing, but
it's almost more like kind of a mini Halloween where
the kids go around doing the penny for a guy,
and it's almost like a form of trick or treating,
and instead of burning effigies of Guy Fox, they'll burn
effigies of like celebrities or politicians. So it's almost taken
(33:26):
a spin where it was originally kind of this celebration
of the state. Now he's sort of become this icon
of standing up to the state.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Absolutely, there's been some transformation over the centuries since, and
there's some sympathy nowadays for Guy Fox in Britain. There's
a fantastic quote we found from Lady Antonia. She's repeating
this joke about the British attitude toward Guy Fox. Guy Fox,
(33:58):
they say, is the only man and who got into
Parliament with the right intentions, which I think.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Is pretty harsh. I get it. I like it. It's chuckleworthy.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
So this is our look at the strange transformation of
the Gunpowder plot and it's associated symbolic meaning across history,
as well as our examination of the controversy that rages
like a conflagration or a bonfire even today. We hope
(34:30):
you enjoyed this. Man, we got so close. Well, at
least we have a chance to reduce ourselves. It's time, gentlemen,
Jonathan Strickly the Quist, you've broken again.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You've broken my spirit.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I I you know, I feel good about that because
the last time you kind of broke me, and I
think turned about fair play.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I think that's true, and you know what, I hope,
I hope we can turn about this whole thing where
we can finally get back on top of your brutal games. Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Well, of course, for those who do not know, let
us explain why I'm here.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yes, as the only emotionally unbroken person on the show
right now, it falls to me to explain.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
We're tough as nails, man, we are. I'll just drink
my theraflu.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
This is the part your evil theraflu. Don't think we forgot. Oh,
come on, this is as we were saying, the part
where this is as we were saying, the part where
you the quizter, come to NOL and I and present
to us a scenario which we must deem either true or.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
False, all the while employing your supervillain powers of low
grade irritation.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yes, yes, it's it's not exactly world shattering, but it
certainly can.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Ruin your day, and we have we will upon hearing
the scenario. Yes, have three minutes on this gigantic Grandfather clock,
which we.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Moved in from one sterio into the new.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Studio a lot less cramped now, and you also go
into Knowl's earlier point about low grade powers of annoyance. Yes,
impose an arbitrary rule on both.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Of us for the duration of the quiz.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
This is true, all right. I think we've I think
we've all caught up now, if I'm not mistaken. You
were previously talking about an attempted regicide with a mister
Guy FOWX correct.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Well, today's scenario we'll take on a different attempted regicide.
In fact, it was one that happened on May fifteenth,
eighteen hundred, and we'll have the club start after I
give you the full scenario. It's a long one again.
That's that's what I do, all right. A would be
assassin named James Hadfield on May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, took
(36:58):
aim and fired a pistol at King George the Third
as he attended a theatrical presentation of She Would and
She Would Not. This happened before the play was to begin,
and the orchestra was fittingly playing God Save the King.
Hadfields shot entirely missed.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
He was seized.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
He was charged with treason.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
He pled not guilty by reason of insanity. His lawyer
was so good that the judge stopped the trial because
he was worried he'd have to actually a quit Hadfield,
and the English government hastily wrote new laws regarding how
the criminally insane were to be handled. Oh and by
the way, on May fifteen, eighteen hundred, this was actually
(37:43):
the second failed assassination attempt on King George the Third.
On that very day someone had earlier taken a shot
at him as he was reviewing soldiers in Hyde Park. Now,
before you begin the clock, if you wish to ask
a question me, you must first by saying, quister, God
Save the King?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Begin Now, I know, God Save the Queen? Is there
also a God Save the King? Are they interchangeable? Quistor
God Save the King? Yes? What's your question? God Save
the Queen and God Save the King? And are they
two different pieces of music?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
No, it's the same music. I was what I said.
They're not interchangeable. It's well, I depended upon whether it's
a king or queen on the throne, but they are
the same piece of use.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Okay, quist God Saved the King? Yes, Master Bolin, could
you give us a much briefer summary of the scenario.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
We do this every time.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, King George the third, recently surviving
a failed assassination attempt, as in within hours in Hyde
Park goes to at tend to Play, where a person
named James Hadfield fires a shot from a pistol. It misses.
The King. Hadfield is seized. He has put on trial
for treason, and because his lawyer is so darn good,
(38:58):
he almost is a wit for reasons of insanity, except
the judge stops the trial early so that they can
figure out how the heck can we not allow someone
who just tried to kill the king?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Go? Oh, I I flying blind.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I'm really flying blind. And my psyche is so broken
from these repeated you know, humiliations, that degradation. I just
don't know which way is up anymore. I'm starting to like.
The only thing I can do is think, would he
really give us another false one right after the Hedgehog one?
You know that?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
But he studied methodology of test giving. He means nothing
if not clever.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
You wonder if the iokane powder is in my cup
or your cup? Did I put them in both cups?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
All right? Ted Cruz?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, so I would say that some of the circumstances,
the fact that or the perceived fact that two assassinations
occurred on the same day. Is meant to be If
it is false, it is meant to be a thing
(40:04):
that sounds so unreasonable. It must be true, right right,
But if it is indeed a true thing, then it's
easy to call it false. One thing that's getting me,
know is the idea of a quitting attempted regicide.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah. I don't think that would happen. I mean, you
know they drew and quartered our boy guy Fox quiz
to I'm sorry, God save the king. What year did
this happen again? Eighteen eighteen hundred? I think this is false.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I am tempted to go with false. Two. Let's let's
agree to sol draw on though. If we get this wrong,
we're down to twenty seconds. You want to lock it in.
I think we got to lock it in a false?
All right, we're locking it in false, you poor poor fools.
I win again.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
First, we're cutting this segment. This is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I could tell by the way you were smirking, by
the way. So how is so good?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
How insane did Hadfield have to be?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
This is an excellent question. Would you like to have
some more details about this? Because it really is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
No, it is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
So in a few years.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Prior to this, in the seventeen nineties, Hadfield served in
the British Army and he went to war against France.
Not just Hadfield, there was a lot of guys with him.
But while he was in a battle, he was struck
in the head repeatedly by a saber, at least eight times.
People suggest that this is perhaps what caused him to
go a little as the experts say, cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I knew you were going to say, How did I
know you was going to say that.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
He returned to England and met another fellow named this
is a real name, Banister Truelock love It, who was
also absolutely bonkers and believed that the Second Coming of
Christ would come through Banister true Lock through his mouth.
Actually he would spring forth from his mouth like a
(41:54):
Greek god.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So the lawyer was able to blame his insanity on
his service. In the first places are.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Less so it gets even more complicated. Truelock convinced Hadfield
that killing King George the Third would bring about peace
on earth in the second Coming of Christ. Hadfield agrees
to do this he received as his barrister a fellow
named Thomas Erskine, who was the most famous and decorated
(42:22):
lawyer in all of England at that time, the Darrow
of his day exactly, and he was able to argue
very persuasively that Hadfield was in fact insane, and that
the definitions that the British court had been using to
define insanity up to that point were not adequate, and
the judge, fearing that this argument was so sound, stop
(42:43):
the trial. Early Parliament passed the Criminal Lunatics Act in response,
because what had happened was was that they realized if
they released him, he would be released into the general populary,
into his family. His family would take care of him,
which means that he could go and do whatever else.
And so instead the Criminal Lunatics Act of eighteen hundred
(43:06):
said that the government could hold the criminally insane indefinitely.
They could commit them indefinitely to an institution. He went
to Bedlam. He did escape, briefly, made it all the
way to Dover in an attempt to escape back to France,
where he was caught and returned to Bedlam. He died
in eighteen forty one of tuberculosis, and in fact, King
George the Third had survived a previous failed assassination attempt
(43:31):
where someone shot at him they hit a person standing
next to him. He decided to go ahead and go
to the theater anyway, and even better, demanded that the
play continue after the failed assassination attempts.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
See what screwed me up? Was like, the most famous
assassination attempt in the theater, to my mind, is Lincoln.
So I thought you were capitalizing on that that maybe
we would think. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Quiztir God, save the king.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It's over, man.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You don't have to say anything. I'm digging it. Actually,
that's the first one I've been actually digging. Two questions. First,
have the laws not changed since then? And? If so?
My second question, how have you evaded capture for so long?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Excellent question?
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Both accounts the laws have somewhat changed since eighteen hundred, Well,
I would hope. Secondly, I'm not a citizen of the UK,
nor do I reside there so they can chase me
all they like.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That. Was it a saber that led to your madness?
Or was it maybe a hammer?
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Was it a Phineas Gauge situation? Actually a lightsaber. It
was not a Disney thing. And there's a small child
with a red Kylo Wrinn saber.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
It was vicious.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
All right, Well you know what, I see him in
my nightmares. Well played, Quizster once again, Well played. Once again,
Nol and Casey and I are off to contact Interpool
about you, just to see what's what.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Is that like a like a an organization that allows
you to go from one pool to another pool?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Interpool, you know what, keep it up and here's hoping
you find out. Well, Pardyon my please, Well, friends and neighbors,
thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. We
hope you enjoyed it. And I've gotta say, Nol, I
actually really enjoyed learning about that quist segment at the end.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
It sort of took the staying out of the humiliating defeat.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Four to two all right, yeah, we know the score, buddy.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well, hey, listen, you guys can write us your fan
and or hate mail regarding the Quistor segment to Ridiculous
at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also send us a
note on Facebook, where we are Ridiculous History, or on
Instagram Ridiculous History and Twitter, and please join us next
time where we're going to talk about a subject that
I'm hoping to employ with our pal the quister here,
(45:54):
which is arsenic, the dream poison of assassins.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
The inheritance powder, yes, my favorite nickname.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
For it so far.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
And of course, where would we be without our super producer,
Casey Pegrim, who true story Folks, has to this day
not been convicted of regicide. We'd also like to thank
Candice Gibson who wrote the excellent article available on HowStuffWorks
dot com regarding Guy Fox and the gunpowder plot.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
And most importantly, we'd like to thank you for hanging
out with us and we hope you'll join us next
time where we can talk about poisoning our loved ones.
See you then. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
(46:43):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Remember remember the fifth of November. It's a thing that
we reference pretty often in this classic episode which is
about Guy Fox, but maybe not in the way you think.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Was it the Gunpowder treason and plot? Was that? The
next line I always associated with V for Vendetta. Oh wonderful,
Alan Moore, there is If you guys are you're missing
your Game of Thrones, well your luck because House of
the Dragon just came back on and it's also a
pretty strong start. I kind of forgot what a good
(00:33):
cliffhanger that first season ended up. It kind of won
me over in the end. But Kit Harrington, who played
John Snow in the original Game of Thrones series, now
is starting in a series on Apple TV I believe
called Gunpowder that is the story of the Gunpowder plot,
of which Guy Fox was a participants. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, and there has been such tremendous interest in Guy
Fox because of as you mentioned, V for Vendetta, also
because the decentralized hacking group Anonymous use the Guy Fowx mask. Yeah,
and there is still a bit of a conspiracy of
(01:15):
foot depending on which historian you ask.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I don't haven't seen the series yet, but I have
a feeling that some of this stuff is addressed in
Gunpowder because I thought that Guy Fox was like the
main guy. Uh no, pun intended. But when I was
looking up to see, like, oh, is this is this
series actually about this? There is another person who is
the leader of the ring leader, you know, in a
(01:39):
big way. Guy Fox is kind of just one of
the underlings in a way. And so you're right through
that marketing historical revision. Guy Fox kind of became this centerpiece,
became this symbol. But was it something of a false
flag situation? Did he do what he was purported to
(01:59):
have done? What's the real truth behind Guy Fox?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And also would we have wanted him to succeed?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Right here we go.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Okay, so check
(02:42):
this out. In the course of our research for today's episode,
I discovered one of the longest sentences I have read
in a cartoonishly long amount of time.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Do we have time for this? We do? We do?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I just want you to I just want you to
check out how long the sentences. Keep in mind it
is all one sentence.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Give it to my Lord.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Out of the love I bear to some of your friends.
I have a care for your preservation. Therefore, I would
advise you, as you tender your life, to devise some
excuse to shift your attendance at this parliament. For God
and Man have concurred to punish the wickedness of this time.
And think not slightly of this advertisement. But retire yourself
into your country, where you may expect the event in safety.
(03:26):
For though there may be no appearance of any stir
yet I say they shall receive a terrible blow this parliament,
and yet they shall not see who hurts them. This
counsel is not to be condemned, because it may do
you good and can do you no harm. For the
danger is pasted as soon as you have burnt the letter,
and I hope God will give you the grace to
(03:47):
make good use of it, to whose holy protection I
commend you. Holy smokes. My name's Ben, my name is Nolan.
That is the way my mom sends text messages. There
are twelve commas in this paragraph masquerading as a sentence.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, my mom doesn't even bother using commas, did I say?
I'm noll I'm distracted by by the length of that
sentence enough, I'm mulling it over. What does it mean, Ben,
what does it mean?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This is a letter that was sent to the Lord
mont Eagle to warn him of a terrorist plot. A
terrorist plot, you say, yes, yes, one involving gunpowder. I
think you mean the infamous gunpowder plot of November of
sixteen oh five. Remember remember the fifth of November with
(04:34):
gunpowder treason and plot. I see no reason why the
gunpowder treason should ever be forgot right, Yes, yes, the
very same nol And that is why you and I,
along with our super producer Casey Pegram, are delving into
some British history, something that has encountered a resurrection in
(04:59):
terms of popularity in the United States ever since the
two thousand and six release of the film V for Vendetta,
an adaptation of an earlier graphic novel.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right by Alan Moore, and it tells the story of
an anarchist who plots to overthrow sort of a dystopian
future government and uses this mask of the face of
Guy Fox as kind of a symbol of rising up
(05:28):
against the oppressors.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Right, and for many people who learned the broad strokes
of this event in school, Guy Fox is often portrayed
as the primary character, the protagonist or antagonist depending upon
your perspective, it's.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
True, but as it turns out, he was really more of,
I don't know, not a patsy. He knew what he
was getting into, but he certainly wasn't the brains behind
the operation. He was just the poor sap what got caught.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yes, yes, yes, And let's set the stage here for
what exactly happened. Let's start with the facts right before
we get into some of the ridiculousness.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So, Henry Eighth, this guy ruled England, he had six wives,
and at the time the country was Catholic.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean that rotund fellow with the chicken leg at
the Renaissance Fair.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Very same. I think that might be an actor.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I'm pretty sure our nemesis, the quizter Jonathan Strickland, knows
Henry the Eighth, or at least the actor that portrays
him at the Renaissance Fair Peak behind the Curtain, Strickland
spends many of his hours when he's not podcasting and
tormenting us as a Renaissance Fair actor.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yes, yes, and he's been doing it for quite a while.
I bet you're correct. I bet he's plugged into the
Renaissance festival scene.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, if he pops up at some point, we'll have
to ask him about that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, perhaps we can also ask him to sing a
snatch of the famous oldie I'm Henry the Eighth.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, And speaking of Henry the Eighth, I am Henry
the Eighth. I am What role did he play in
kind of setting the stage for this treasonous plot?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yes, excellent question. You see, at the time that he
ruled England, the country was Catholic, at least at first,
because his wife at the time, Catherine of Aragon, could
not bear him a male heir. And because of this,
Henry the Eighth said, well, why are we even married?
(07:31):
What's the point of this matrimony?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, what's a big deal. I mean, if you're trying
to preserve your legacy as the patriarch of an entire nation,
you need yourself. A boy, A prince, A princess just
won't do the trick. These were very misogynistic times, and
if he felt this marriage was fruitless and not bearing
him the desired offspring, then he was going to have
to do something about it. But unfortunately, under the laws
(07:55):
of Catholicism and the pope, divorce just was not thing.
You couldn't You couldn't do it. Even the king couldn't do.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
It, even the king and so so Henry said, you
know what, I'm done with the Church, and he finally
got the divorce he wanted. But this created intense interreligious
confusion because his three children retained Catholic religious beliefs, but
they became politically opposed to the Church's doctrine, and this
(08:27):
led to persecution of Catholics in England.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Absolutely, and a lot of historians conjecture that Henry himself,
behind closed doors pretty much remained Catholic. He was a
Protestant in name only a Pino. Yes, So Henry died
as people tend to do.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I think of gout of rich living right. He had
a very fatty liver, and his son Edward took the throne.
Edward was followed by Mary, and Mary led a Catholic reign,
but when Elizabeth took the throne in fifteen fifty eight,
England switched from a Catholic to a Protestant nation.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Isn't it interesting how he finally got that heir in Edward.
And I think he was kind of a weedy, little
sickly fellow hemophilia and then just did not fit the bill.
And then, of course we have a legacy, despite Henry's
best efforts and throwing his country into religious turmoil, a
succession of very powerful, badass women.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yes, yes, oh what Webb's history weaves. You never quite
know the ending of a tale, right, And Catholics had
discriminatory policies placed against them. They couldn't hold mass, for instance.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That's right. Many Catholic priests were imprisoned and even put
to death, and Catholics who refused to attend Protestant services
would be fined, and those fines increased exponentially over the
years as the throne switched hands.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Absolutely, and this is why Catholics who lived in England
under this discriminatory system had high hopes when James of
Scotland became the king, because you know, his mother Mary
was Catholic. Wouldn't he be a little less uncool at least?
And initially he actually waived those fines, which really got
(10:24):
people's hopes up, Catholics specifically thinking okay, we've got a
friend in James, you know, But he pulled the bait
and switch of the century and ended up being even
harsher to Catholics than his predecessor had been. And that's
when people had just had enough and some of these Catholics,
various groups got together and hatched several well known plots
(10:49):
to assassinate James in the hopes of switching the tide
of history and the religious leanings of the country.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, And we think of this period of time usually
in terms of the Gunpowder Plot. But Noel, you raise
an excellent point. It was one of several plots. There
was the by plot spelled like bye bye in sixteenh three,
and their aim was to kidnap James. And then there
(11:20):
was the main plot, of which the Bye plot was
a part, which involved replacing James with his cousin Arabella
Stewart or Arbella Stewart.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And the thing that's interesting about these is like you
have to wonder what were they thinking because it was
largely a Protestant country at this point. I think way
more people were practicing Protestantism than Catholicism. So if they
did succeed, short of recruiting some other country, it will
get into this. With the Gunpowder plot, there were attempts
to attract Spain to aid in the Catholic cause in England.
(11:58):
But what did they expect to happen that all of
a sudden, like all of these Protestants that were the majority,
we're just gonna like decide to be on board and
not see them as utter zealots and terrorists.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Right, yeah, because what we have seen typically is that
across the span of history, extremism does not make for
a welcoming argument, especially to your opponents. Right, So, if
these plots had succeeded, right, and the ruling powers of
the day became Catholic, it's pretty unlikely that all of
(12:36):
the Protestant population would just shrug and say, ah, good game.
That probably wasn't going to happen. But that was not
a consideration in the minds of these conspirators. And these
were actual conspiracies, and all of this because of the
whims of a fat man. Well, you know, no king
(13:00):
is perfect. The plot the gun does it thicken? Yes,
the plot does thicken. The gunpowder plot especially. There's a
great article on how Stuff Works by our friend Candice
Gibson that looks at the germination of the gunpowder plot,
and one way that she describes it, which I love,
(13:22):
is she says, if you can imagine the cast of
the Ocean's Eleven trilogy in breeches and broad callers, you've
got an inklean of the crew assembled to take down
James and leaders of Parliament in the Gunpowder plot.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And that crew was led sort of the brad Pitt
character in this story was a man by the name
of Robert Katsby, and he was a nobleman who had
participated in a previous rebellion known as Essex's Rebellion, which
was another unsuccessful rebellion where the second Earl of Essex
led a charge to depose Elizabeth I of England or
(14:00):
at least kind of splinter her inner circle and influence policy.
And that didn't work. So this guy's already coming into
this with an axe to grind and that rebellious kind
of attitude of not accepting the status quo, and you know,
come hell or high water, he's gonna get his way.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah. He is, in the parlance of our time, a
veteran terrorist. The plan was kill the king, killed James,
and then when his daughter ascends to the throne, marry
her off to a Catholic, thereby redefining England's religious identity.
You can already see here that this master plan is
(14:38):
assuming that the daughter will be a puppet royal right
and has no agency of her own. And I like
your comparison of Katsby as the brad Pitt. Here's the
crew he recruited. He got a guy named John Wright,
a fellow named Thomas Winter, another Thomas, this one Thomas Percy,
and of course Guy Fox. And I think a lot
(15:01):
of people perhaps erroneously assume that Guy Fox was playing
the role that was actually played by Robert Katsby. Guy
Fox came in the mix. He was not the brad Pitt. No,
he was really kind of a heavy. He had a
lot of experience in combat fighting Protestant rebels in the
(15:21):
Spanish Netherlands, and he had kind of gotten at least
maybe not buddy buddy, but close enough to the King
of Spain that he actually asked him for help in
starting an English uprising against James, who was just the enemy.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Of Catholics far and wide. And he even changed his
name or started referring to himself as Guido instead of
Guy in sixteen oh five because it gave him more
of a connection to the papacy in Rome. And sort
of more of a cosmopolitan identity that was tied more
to Catholicism than to being an Englishman.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And we cantice paid the question here did he refer
to himself in third person? We can only hope that
he was one of those people. But what we do
know for sure is that due to his military experience,
he was acquainted with using and more importantly, gaining access
(16:18):
to gunpowder. They spent more than a year, more than
seventeen months or so organizing this plot, and ultimately they
got thirty six barrels of gunpowder, and they rented a
building close to Parliament with the aim of tunneling underground
to place the barrels of gunpowder in the cellars of
(16:43):
the Parliament building.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So, just to just to clarify for me, ben I
kind of got a little little turned around here when
I was reading this. Their goal was to tunnel into
Parliament from this rented basement because it was directly under
the House of Lords. But the idea was that they
would dig tunnels from that basement into the House of Lords.
But I think their plan was foiled by the flooding
of the Thames, which predictably totally jack things up.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Right, yeah, and thwarted their efforts. So they said, not
to be discouraged. Let's go to our backup plan, Plan
B for backup. And while they were working on this plan,
Thomas Winter's boss, a fellow named Lord mont Eagle, who
we mentioned earlier in the episode, he tipped off, according
(17:31):
to the story, a fellow named Robert Cecil, who was
the Earl of Salisbury at the time.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Salisbury. Yes, like the state, like the steak.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I love how both of us immediately went to that association.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, that's that was the good lunch day in school
for me. It was Salisbury's state day.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
You were a rectangle pizza guy.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I did like rectangle pizza too.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
I thought like rectangle pizza was solid.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
A slight interjection here, Ben, This guy Cecil was also
a hugely important figure and Elizabeth their court and one
of the targets of that revolt we mentioned earlier Essex's
revolt that our boy cats be helped orchestrate. So they
had beef previous to this, and they knew of each other,
(18:13):
and that's going to come into play in a really cool,
interesting way.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And now we enter into the realm of full on conspiracy.
We can go a couple of different directions with this.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Let's go all of the directions.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Let's go all of the directions at once, like a Wonkavator,
right exactly, So, someone in the know, someone with advanced
knowledge of the gunpowder plot, sent the letter with that
cartoonishly long sentence we read at the top of the
show to Lord mont Eagle, advising him, as you could hear,
to avoid the ceremony in the House of the Lords
(18:53):
that day.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And that's because he was a Catholic, and it was
somebody involved in the plot that wanted to protect him
from being to hell. And there are historical perspective that
say several of the conspirators sent letters to various other
Catholics that would have been present, potentially to warn them
not to go right.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And there's an excellent article on BBC. There's actually a
lot of research into this idea, but there's an excellent
article in BBC by Adam Donald called was guy Fox
a wait for it, no fall guy?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Huh? All right, Well I liked it. Wait, I don't
think I get it A.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Guy Fox of fall Guys?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, I got it, I got it. More like a
fall Guido. There we go. Yes, there we go.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So the official course of events is that mont Eagle
sends the letter to Cecil the Earl of Salisbury, and
Salisbury is the one who makes the call to search
the Palace of Westminster, wherein guy Fox is discovered alone
in the cellars, surrounded by barrels of gunpowder. Talk about
being red handed.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
And not only that, he had a slow burning fuse
on him. You know, picture any traditional fuse that you
would attach to dynamie that you can light and so
it burns slow enough for you to get the hell
out of there. He had one of those on him.
He also had a clock on him, a pocket watch
that Catsbury had given him so that they could synchronize
the timeline of it all, so that he could set
the fuse ablaze at just the right moment.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Right, because just like the joker in the Christopher Nolan
Batman thing, it's about sending a message, right, It's true.
And so Fox is caught, he is tortured, and he
stands up pretty well under this horrific torture, and torture
was actually illegal in the United Kingdom at the time,
(20:44):
but James made a special concession. It's to me, you know,
that sort of calls into question the idea of legality
if you can just like make an exception for this one, right,
you know, this one guy that really.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Really has it coming. So he signs a confession ultimately
after giving up his co conspirators, and you can find
this confession online and it's like you can tell that
whoever signed it did not have full use of their hand,
so he probably either had fingers removed or smashed with
you know, who knows what horrible things they would have done.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, it may indeed have been so traumatized that he
didn't understand the full text of what he was signing.
But he did sign it, Guido. But he did sign
it Guido. The other conspirators fled or perished in a
skirmish with the Crown. Those that were remaining, and most
famously Guy or Guido Fox, were sentenced to being hanged,
(21:38):
drawn and quartered. But here is where the historical narrative
begins to come into some conflict points, because you see
friends and neighbors that there are stories that will tell
you that the official narrative was a little more sanitized
(21:59):
than the actual events. And there are some that will
go so far as to say that Cecil was planning
a false flag attack.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, that he actually blackmailed Catsby to set this whole
operation in motion, all the while monitoring everything. He even,
you know, supposedly, according to some versions of the story,
set kind of a honey trap in this space that
they were able to lease that just happened to be
right underneath the House of Lords. That he was responsible
(22:31):
for that, and that it was all in the name
of this like false flag campaign to further demonize Catholics
and make them out to be these utter looney tune
zealot extremists.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, exactly, the idea being that he was his day
and age's version of a marketing genius, because it would
have more impact. The argument goes on the Protestant public
and on the government if the Catholic extremists were not
just caught talking in a tavern about doing this, but
(23:07):
if they were caught red handed at virtually the moment
before disaster struck. So the idea here is that we
the espionage apparatus that Cecil has constructed, the idea being
that we would wait and let things play out and
let the conspirators believe that they're working in secrecy. Allowing
(23:30):
them to plot until the last minute, so that the
people of England would understand just how very very very
very close they came to losing the king. Except that
probably isn't true either.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Cecil's biographer, a woman named Pauline Croft, had this to
say about the likelihood of that particular version of events
in the inflamed atmosphere after November sixteen oh five, with
wild accusations and counter accusations being traded by religious polemicists,
there were allegations that Cecil himself had devised the gunpowder
plot to elevate his own importance in the eyes of
(24:03):
the king and to facilitate a further attack on the Jesuits.
Numerous subsequent efforts to substantiate these conspiracy theories have all
failed abysmally. But there is no doubt that Cecil again,
he'd been in this since Elizabeth. He had been very
close member of her court and continued to wield significant power.
I mean, he's the one who, after all called for
(24:25):
the Parliament to be searched. You know, whether that was
just a clever subterfuge or but you know, he definitely
wielded control. He had goons that he could deploy right.
But what ended up happening with Guy Fox? He was
sentenced to being drawn and quartered. But yeah, which means
having your guts pulled out in front of you, after
(24:47):
being hanged almost to death. They take you down, they
pull out your guts, and they cut off your testicles,
this pretty grizzly stuff, and they drag you.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
They don't walk you to the gallows. They drag you
to the gallows via horse.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And then they split your carcass into four pieces and
send them to the four corners of the kingdom as
a warning to all those who would dare you defy
the order of the crown.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
And Guy Fox knew this was a possibility. He knew,
and so he went out on his own terms.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
What do you do know? He took a dive, man,
He took a swan dive from the gallows and broke
his own neck.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
He broke his own neck. Rather than submitting to the
lengthy degradations of being drawn and quartered, he went for
a quicker death, arguably a cleaner one, I would say.
And I like the point about Cecil's biographer, because even
today you will see historians disagreeing about this or arguing
(25:44):
different perspectives. For instance, in the book The Gunpowder Plot,
Terror and Faith in sixteen oh five, author Antonia Frasier
argues that there's not just evidence that the whole thing
was some kind of deeper conspiracy than the history books say,
but she also argues that the letter itself, the famous
(26:06):
warning letter, was fake, and that both mont Eagle and
Cecil knew it was fake. She also says that mont
Eagle may have even written the letter himself. In her opinion,
this is a quote nothing else makes sense of Salisbury's
extraordinary urbanity. One might even call it complacency. In the
day's following. There was certainly no sense of the impending
(26:29):
danger in his conduct, such as might have been expected
if the letter had presented him with a genuine mystery.
So this this is strange. But as a counterpoint to this, again,
this was not the Earl's first rodeo, absolutely not, and
just a quick aside. Lord mont Eagle was the friend
(26:49):
and brother in law of conspirator Francis Tresham, and he
was worried that you know, his pal and you know
brother in law would be blown up in this attempt,
and so he supposedly sent him that letter but I
see what you're saying, Ben. I mean, there's a lot
of a lot of loose ends in this story to
(27:09):
this day. And you know, the strange thing is when
the rubber hits the road at the bottom line. Whatever
the aims of the gunpowder plot, as it would be
perceived by the public, it did end up making things
worse for Catholics in England absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I mean, Guy Fox became this symbol of treason, and
they declared a national holiday, I guess Guy Fox Day
or Guy fowx Night or Bonfire Night where children would
sell these little effigies of Guy Fox. They'd say a penny,
(27:49):
what is it? A penny for the guy, penny for
the guy. That's it. They'd have these little wheelbarrows and
go around and then people would set them on fire.
So this guy bore the brunt historically for this whole thing.
It turns out he was a bit more of a
side guy just happened to be the one caught with
his pants down his match out.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
There are other lines of thought you will hear from
people arguing both for this conspiracy and for this conspiracy
theory rather and against it. One of the common arguments
for the involvement of the crown was that only the
state possessed gunpowder, but according to scholars, that is a
myth and nonsense, with the argument the rebuttal being that
(28:31):
almost every gentleman in the early seventeenth century in that
part of the world would have had a stock of gunpowder.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
We probably should have talked about this upfront, and we
mentioned guy's backstory, but he actually was a Protestant by
birth and didn't convert to Catholicism until he was a teen.
And I think it's so interesting how, you know, you
think of Catholicism as like sort of the first form
of Christianity in a lot of ways, but how over time,
because of the decisions and the sort of whim of
(29:00):
Henry the Eighth, it created this huge divide and had
you know, people at each other's throats simply because of
the religion that they practiced. And obviously as tale as
old as time and.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right, when we think of Catholicism in Europe at the time,
if not in England, it's functioning as a state power.
You know, it's an inarguable authority in many parts of
the region. Fox was not just anti Protestantism. There there's
also a component of anti Scottish sentiment because, as it
(29:34):
turned out, he was fiercely anti Scottish. He believed that
there was a natural hostility between the English and the
Scots that would make it impossible to reconcile the two
nations for any sustainable length of time. That comes from
the Gunpowder plot in History Today by an author named
Pauline croft Man.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It turns out that Fox was kind of a tough
bastard too. I mean, he went two days, i think,
being the only person in custody tied to this plot,
and you know, went through the tortures of the damned
to quote clockwork orange, and he said the reason he
participated in this plan and the whole purpose was to
quote blow you Scotch beggars back to your native mountains.
(30:15):
So there's definitely some anti Scottish sentiment there. But King
James the First reportedly kind of liked the cut of
his jib in a way because he, you know, he
said he had a quote Roman resolution, and so despite
you know, sending him to the most horrible Hellish and
you could possibly imagine he respected the guy a little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, grudgingly, and that that Roman resolution was was quite
possibly a Catholic name drop or reference point.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Ben.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So now we are in a situation where you can
still hear historians, biographers and other scholars argue about the
nature of essentially a deep state, right or the existence
rather of a deep state in England at the time.
Regardless of where you fall in this conversation, one thing
(31:11):
is for sure for actual facts. Sure a phrase we
stole from our fellow Pyecaster Louren Voclbam, and that fact
is this guy Fox was not the leader. Guy Fox
was the fellow who got caught with the gunpowder. He
was the man who endured torture for two days without
rolling over on his co conspirators. But he was not
(31:35):
the mastermind that he is so often portrayed as being
in modern recounts of the story.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, but he does have a place in history as
this symbol of revolution, and that is the role that
that mask en v for Vendetta plays. That is the
role that that mask plays in the occupy movement, and
anonymous in any use of that image is very much
tied to some form of fighting back against something perceived
(32:05):
as being fascist or a regime that does not value
individual liberties, and that is trying to crush you under
their you know, giant thumb or boot right.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
This symbolic legacy or dynasty continues on today and this
might be interesting to you as well. Guy Fox. The
name guy enters the English lexicon as the noun guy,
like I saw a guy or this guy, or you
know you're in you're in a seven to eleven somewhere
(32:35):
and you say, ah my guy, let me get a slushy.
I think that's cool because I love calling people guy.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah. Guy. And after all this went down and Guy
Fox Day or Guy Fox Nighter, Bonfire Night became a
thing in England. It was a sort of a celebration
of the physical demo eyes of this human and the
foiling of that gunpowder plot and like you said, furthered
(33:06):
anti Catholic sentiment. But today it's still a thing, but
it's almost more like kind of a mini Halloween where
the kids go around doing the penny for a guy,
and it's almost like a form of trick or treating,
and instead of burning effigies of Guy Fox, they'll burn
effigies of like celebrities or politicians. So it's almost taken
(33:26):
a spin where it was originally kind of this celebration
of the state. Now he's sort of become this icon
of standing up to the state.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Absolutely, there's been some transformation over the centuries since, and
there's some sympathy nowadays for Guy Fox in Britain. There's
a fantastic quote we found from Lady Antonia. She's repeating
this joke about the British attitude toward Guy Fox. Guy Fox,
(33:58):
they say, is the only man and who got into
Parliament with the right intentions, which I think.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Is pretty harsh. I get it. I like it. It's chuckleworthy.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
So this is our look at the strange transformation of
the Gunpowder plot and it's associated symbolic meaning across history,
as well as our examination of the controversy that rages
like a conflagration or a bonfire even today. We hope
(34:30):
you enjoyed this. Man, we got so close. Well, at
least we have a chance to reduce ourselves. It's time, gentlemen,
Jonathan Strickly the Quist, you've broken again.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You've broken my spirit.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I I you know, I feel good about that because
the last time you kind of broke me, and I
think turned about fair play.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I think that's true, and you know what, I hope,
I hope we can turn about this whole thing where
we can finally get back on top of your brutal games. Yes.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Well, of course, for those who do not know, let
us explain why I'm here.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yes, as the only emotionally unbroken person on the show
right now, it falls to me to explain.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
We're tough as nails, man, we are. I'll just drink
my theraflu.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
This is the part your evil theraflu. Don't think we forgot. Oh,
come on, this is as we were saying, the part
where this is as we were saying, the part where
you the quizter, come to NOL and I and present
to us a scenario which we must deem either true or.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
False, all the while employing your supervillain powers of low
grade irritation.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yes, yes, it's it's not exactly world shattering, but it
certainly can.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Ruin your day, and we have we will upon hearing
the scenario. Yes, have three minutes on this gigantic Grandfather clock,
which we.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Moved in from one sterio into the new.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Studio a lot less cramped now, and you also go
into Knowl's earlier point about low grade powers of annoyance. Yes,
impose an arbitrary rule on both.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Of us for the duration of the quiz.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
This is true, all right. I think we've I think
we've all caught up now, if I'm not mistaken. You
were previously talking about an attempted regicide with a mister
Guy FOWX correct.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Correct, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Well, today's scenario we'll take on a different attempted regicide.
In fact, it was one that happened on May fifteenth,
eighteen hundred, and we'll have the club start after I
give you the full scenario. It's a long one again.
That's that's what I do, all right. A would be
assassin named James Hadfield on May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, took
(36:58):
aim and fired a pistol at King George the Third
as he attended a theatrical presentation of She Would and
She Would Not. This happened before the play was to begin,
and the orchestra was fittingly playing God Save the King.
Hadfields shot entirely missed.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
He was seized.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
He was charged with treason.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
He pled not guilty by reason of insanity. His lawyer
was so good that the judge stopped the trial because
he was worried he'd have to actually a quit Hadfield,
and the English government hastily wrote new laws regarding how
the criminally insane were to be handled. Oh and by
the way, on May fifteen, eighteen hundred, this was actually
(37:43):
the second failed assassination attempt on King George the Third.
On that very day someone had earlier taken a shot
at him as he was reviewing soldiers in Hyde Park. Now,
before you begin the clock, if you wish to ask
a question me, you must first by saying, quister, God
Save the King?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Begin Now, I know, God Save the Queen? Is there
also a God Save the King? Are they interchangeable? Quistor
God Save the King? Yes? What's your question? God Save
the Queen and God Save the King? And are they
two different pieces of music?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
No, it's the same music. I was what I said.
They're not interchangeable. It's well, I depended upon whether it's
a king or queen on the throne, but they are
the same piece of use.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Okay, quist God Saved the King? Yes, Master Bolin, could
you give us a much briefer summary of the scenario.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
We do this every time.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, King George the third, recently surviving
a failed assassination attempt, as in within hours in Hyde
Park goes to at tend to Play, where a person
named James Hadfield fires a shot from a pistol. It misses.
The King. Hadfield is seized. He has put on trial
for treason, and because his lawyer is so darn good,
(38:58):
he almost is a wit for reasons of insanity, except
the judge stops the trial early so that they can
figure out how the heck can we not allow someone
who just tried to kill the king?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Go? Oh, I I flying blind.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I'm really flying blind. And my psyche is so broken
from these repeated you know, humiliations, that degradation. I just
don't know which way is up anymore. I'm starting to like.
The only thing I can do is think, would he
really give us another false one right after the Hedgehog one?
You know that?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
But he studied methodology of test giving. He means nothing
if not clever.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
You wonder if the iokane powder is in my cup
or your cup? Did I put them in both cups?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
All right? Ted Cruz?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, so I would say that some of the circumstances,
the fact that or the perceived fact that two assassinations
occurred on the same day. Is meant to be If
it is false, it is meant to be a thing
(40:04):
that sounds so unreasonable. It must be true, right right,
But if it is indeed a true thing, then it's
easy to call it false. One thing that's getting me,
know is the idea of a quitting attempted regicide.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah. I don't think that would happen. I mean, you
know they drew and quartered our boy guy Fox quiz
to I'm sorry, God save the king. What year did
this happen again? Eighteen eighteen hundred? I think this is false.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I am tempted to go with false. Two. Let's let's
agree to sol draw on though. If we get this wrong,
we're down to twenty seconds. You want to lock it in.
I think we got to lock it in a false?
All right, we're locking it in false, you poor poor fools.
I win again.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
First, we're cutting this segment. This is absolutely true.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I could tell by the way you were smirking, by
the way. So how is so good?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
How insane did Hadfield have to be?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
This is an excellent question. Would you like to have
some more details about this? Because it really is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
No, it is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
So in a few years.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Prior to this, in the seventeen nineties, Hadfield served in
the British Army and he went to war against France.
Not just Hadfield, there was a lot of guys with him.
But while he was in a battle, he was struck
in the head repeatedly by a saber, at least eight times.
People suggest that this is perhaps what caused him to
go a little as the experts say, cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I knew you were going to say, How did I
know you was going to say that.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
He returned to England and met another fellow named this
is a real name, Banister Truelock love It, who was
also absolutely bonkers and believed that the Second Coming of
Christ would come through Banister true Lock through his mouth.
Actually he would spring forth from his mouth like a
(41:54):
Greek god.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So the lawyer was able to blame his insanity on
his service. In the first places are.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Less so it gets even more complicated. Truelock convinced Hadfield
that killing King George the Third would bring about peace
on earth in the second Coming of Christ. Hadfield agrees
to do this he received as his barrister a fellow
named Thomas Erskine, who was the most famous and decorated
(42:22):
lawyer in all of England at that time, the Darrow
of his day exactly, and he was able to argue
very persuasively that Hadfield was in fact insane, and that
the definitions that the British court had been using to
define insanity up to that point were not adequate, and
the judge, fearing that this argument was so sound, stop
(42:43):
the trial. Early Parliament passed the Criminal Lunatics Act in response,
because what had happened was was that they realized if
they released him, he would be released into the general populary,
into his family. His family would take care of him,
which means that he could go and do whatever else.
And so instead the Criminal Lunatics Act of eighteen hundred
(43:06):
said that the government could hold the criminally insane indefinitely.
They could commit them indefinitely to an institution. He went
to Bedlam. He did escape, briefly, made it all the
way to Dover in an attempt to escape back to France,
where he was caught and returned to Bedlam. He died
in eighteen forty one of tuberculosis, and in fact, King
George the Third had survived a previous failed assassination attempt
(43:31):
where someone shot at him they hit a person standing
next to him. He decided to go ahead and go
to the theater anyway, and even better, demanded that the
play continue after the failed assassination attempts.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
See what screwed me up? Was like, the most famous
assassination attempt in the theater, to my mind, is Lincoln.
So I thought you were capitalizing on that that maybe
we would think. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Quiztir God, save the king.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
It's over, man.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
You don't have to say anything. I'm digging it. Actually,
that's the first one I've been actually digging. Two questions. First,
have the laws not changed since then? And? If so?
My second question, how have you evaded capture for so long?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Excellent question?
Speaker 3 (44:17):
Both accounts the laws have somewhat changed since eighteen hundred, Well,
I would hope. Secondly, I'm not a citizen of the UK,
nor do I reside there so they can chase me
all they like.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That. Was it a saber that led to your madness?
Or was it maybe a hammer?
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Was it a Phineas Gauge situation? Actually a lightsaber. It
was not a Disney thing. And there's a small child
with a red Kylo Wrinn saber.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
It was vicious.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
All right, Well you know what, I see him in
my nightmares. Well played, Quizster once again, Well played. Once again,
Nol and Casey and I are off to contact Interpool
about you, just to see what's what.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Is that like a like a an organization that allows
you to go from one pool to another pool?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Interpool, you know what, keep it up and here's hoping
you find out. Well, Pardyon my please, Well, friends and neighbors,
thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. We
hope you enjoyed it. And I've gotta say, Nol, I
actually really enjoyed learning about that quist segment at the end.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
It sort of took the staying out of the humiliating defeat.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Four to two all right, yeah, we know the score, buddy.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well, hey, listen, you guys can write us your fan
and or hate mail regarding the Quistor segment to Ridiculous
at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also send us a
note on Facebook, where we are Ridiculous History, or on
Instagram Ridiculous History and Twitter, and please join us next
time where we're going to talk about a subject that
I'm hoping to employ with our pal the quister here,
(45:54):
which is arsenic, the dream poison of assassins.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
The inheritance powder, yes, my favorite nickname.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
For it so far.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
And of course, where would we be without our super producer,
Casey Pegrim, who true story Folks, has to this day
not been convicted of regicide. We'd also like to thank
Candice Gibson who wrote the excellent article available on HowStuffWorks
dot com regarding Guy Fox and the gunpowder plot.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
And most importantly, we'd like to thank you for hanging
out with us and we hope you'll join us next
time where we can talk about poisoning our loved ones.
See you then. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
(46:43):
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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Noel Brown
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