March 28, 2019 • 28 mins
From 1861 to 1865, the United States of America was a country divided. More than a century later, it remains America's bloodiest war. After the cessation of conflicts and the surrender of the Confederate army, General Robert E. Lee found himself constantly approached to endorse numerous different memorials, statues and other structures. There was just one problem -- he apparently hated them.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Casey, can we get a little bit of a kind
of a Gettysburg vibe music, you know, like with the
drums flute, there we go. I feel that cadence. It
sounds like a nineties song, like like like Jumper by
Third Eye Blind or something you know from centuries earlier. Yeah, yeah, totally.
It's those It's those marching drums that really give my
(00:45):
give my fields up. And speaking of fields, thanks for
tuning in. We hope that you are feeling great. Uh,
this is ridiculous history. My name is Ben, my name
is Noel, and the man on the ones and twos
as always give it up for our super producer, Casey Pegram.
Today's episode does concern some heavy history that we we
(01:09):
have to bring into the story, but we we don't
have to get to two in the weeds about it.
You've heard the story a thousand thousand times, whether or
not you live in the US. It's a story of
brother against brother, North and South, a nation divided. The
US Civil War. Well, how would you describe the US
(01:31):
Civil War to someone who had never heard of it?
It was real, main spirited man. Brothers were fighting brothers.
Everyone was at each other's throats in the North from
the South, and why can't we all just get along?
And it wasn't any fun, Man, wasn't any fun. From
April twelfth, eighteen sixty one, to April nine, eighteen sixty five,
(01:52):
this nation was embroiled in what would later become the
most heavily documented research war in US history. Yeah, that too,
So I think all of those facts together are are
pretty good high level look at at this conflict. But
the ramifications of the U. S Civil War carry on
(02:14):
in the United States today, not just in the southern
part of the continent, but in the policies and the
legislation created on a state and federal level. The war
created several larger than life historical figures, people who were
(02:35):
and are enormously influential here in Abraham Lincoln, for instance, right,
the guy who brought everybody back together hell or high water.
And today's episode is about another one of those giants,
a man named Robert E. Lee, or we can only
imagine Bobby Lee to his friends. Yeah, or maybe some
(02:57):
people call him Eddie because his middle name the East
for Edward. Yeah. I know that was eating a lot
of you up inside, not knowing what that he stood for.
Was it corn exactly. So what do we know about
Robert E. Lee? Well, like okay, So he was born
January nineteenth of eighteen oh seven, passed away October twelfth
of eighteen seventy, and he was a decorated um general.
(03:21):
He was born in a plantation in Westmoreland County, Virginia,
UM and he came from a military family. His father's
name was Major General Henry Lee the third had a
pretty dope nickname as with light Horse Harry UM and
it was He was also the governor of Virginia UH.
And he was had Robert E. With his second wife
(03:42):
and Hill Carter. And he was raised in this very
regimented military family and he carried on that legacy with
a career in military engineering. His father actually had some
difficulty is that he ended up in debtors prison due
to some financial troubles he had while doing business in
(04:05):
the West Indies. UM. But but Robert was left undeterred
and he got himself a pretty choice spot at the
prestigious military academy at West Point, where he graduated second
in his class um in eighteen twenty nine. But it
would be some time before Lee actually ever saw battle.
(04:26):
It wasn't until eighteen forty six in the War with
Mexico that he was able to really get his feet, wet,
his hands bloody. Whatever the euphemisity you'd like to use
under General Winfield Scott's brigade or whatever you want, regiments,
I don't know. Uh. He became a pretty well respected
(04:48):
soldier for bravery, and he came out of that situation
with the rank of colonel and then was appointed as
superintendent at West Point, where he served from eighteen fIF
two to eighteen fifty five. But um, let's remember where
this story starts. He was at heart a Southern gentleman
raised on a Southern plantation, and was also a slave owner,
(05:13):
and reports are that he was quite cruel to his
slaves in fact, and in a biography brief biography on
Battlefields dot org Um, the writer points out that during
his tenure as the superintendent, which is like the head
hauncho of West Point, he would be overseeing cadets who
would serve on both sides of the Civil War, both
(05:35):
under him and in opposition to his forces. Because, as
we know, he went on to become the general of
the Confederate Forces, which were the forces that supported slavery right. So,
one thing that people forgot pretty quickly after the close
of the Civil War and Robert E. Lee's death is
(05:57):
that he was by no means a perfect man. There
are a lot of myths about Lee that are still
circulating today, one of those being that he was opposed
to slavery. After the Civil War, he did attempt to
present himself as always having been opposed to slavery. In
an interview shortly after his surrender at Appomattox, he said
(06:20):
that the best men of the South have been eager
to do away with the abominable practice. In eighteen sixty six,
he testified before the Joint Committee on Reconstruction that he
had always been in favor of emancipation, gradual emancipation. However,
he owned or managed slaves for over thirty years in
eighteen sixty one, in April, he oversaw roughly two hundred individuals.
(06:45):
Not to mention that there were reports. You know, maybe
we haven't have cocon of present confirmation, but he wasn't
a particularly kind slave owner. That he may have been
much more on the cruel and brutal side. We give
this just to lay out those facts. These are very,
very important things. However, his personal or non military life aside,
(07:08):
he was known as one of the finest officers in
the US Army. In eighteen fifty nine, he was called
upon to suppress the raid at Harper's Ferry led by
the abolitionist John Brown, and was so successful that in
eighteen sixty one, Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the
(07:30):
full federal forces. Not only did he decline, he resigned
from the army when the state of Virginia seceded from
the Union on April seventeen of the same year, his
reasoning being I cannot make war against my own people.
And he didn't just resign, He didn't go, you know,
(07:51):
hang out on a farm somewhere. Instead, he joined up
with the newly formed Confederate Army as a general. So
his first military engagement is at a place called cheat Mountain, Virginia.
Well now it's West Virginia, but back then it was
just Cheap Mountain, Virginia on September eleventh, eighteen sixty one.
(08:12):
It was a victory for the Union, but he still
weathered the storm and was also a military advisor to
President Jefferson Davis until eighteen sixty two and there are
so many fantastic stories, books, biographies, podcast, research papers, and
(08:34):
so on written about the Civil War that we would
we would helpfully refer you to any one of those.
Let's fast forward to the end of the Civil War,
because this is when our story really begins to take shape.
So we said that the Civil War ended in eighteen
(08:57):
sixty five, right, Yeah, it's true because upon um defeat,
Robert E. Lee had to or didn't have to, but
he seemed to acquiesce to swearing allegiance to the Union
and to admitting defeat, and to not being a particularly
sore sport about the whole affair because he was, you know,
in fact, a professional military man, and he understood the
(09:20):
rules of engagement, and he wasn't gonna pitch a fit
about it, and he kind of went quietly. Yeah. On
April nine, eighteen sixty five, Lee surrendered the Confederate Army
to Ulysses S. Grant at the Appomattox Courthouse. This ended
the Civil War, I mean, effectively, he went home on parole.
His life went on for about five years after the
(09:43):
Civil Wars end, and he eventually became president of Washington
College right before his death on October twelfth, in eighteen seventy.
There's an interesting timeline here, right, So he only lives
about five years after the close of the Civil War.
And similar to the way that myths sprang up about
(10:06):
George Washington, you know, even while he was alive and
certainly immediately after his death, we see the same thing
in certain parts of American culture with Robert E. Lee.
He was romanticized, he was memorialized. You could say, people
in the South wanted to build statues to him. They
(10:26):
wanted to waive the stars and bars and talk about
I don't know, the South rising again, right, Yeah, I
mean that's what they said, absolutely, But it ends up
feeding into some pretty toxic romanticizations of these ideas. Oh yeah,
let's have no illusions about that. It's it's it's it's
it's bad stuff. And we will get into how that
plays into more contemporary history in just a little bit.
(10:53):
In an article on PBS dot Org by Lisa and
I'm gonna go ahead and really french this one up
Lisa Arden, which I may be overpronouncing it. I'd rather
overpronounced than underpronounced. She mentions how Lee was pretty clear
about the way he felt about that kind of romanticization
well before his death. Um, and that he stressed this
(11:15):
idea that it was very important for a country that
had been torn by war to move past it, and
that includes not memorializing it with any kind of symbolism
or militant monument remembrances, things like that that would continue
to cause UH to sort of sow the seeds of separatism.
(11:35):
And there's a really great quote from him that you
think you can kind of take as at faith faith value,
and then we can kind of dissect a little bit too, Ben,
Do you want to read that one? Sure? This quote
comes from a piece of correspondence about a proposed memorial
at Gettysburg written in eighteen sixty nine. I think it
was not to keep open the souls of war, but
(11:56):
to follow the examples of those nations who wouldn't they
able to obliterate the marks of civil strath to commit
to oblivion. Little feelings engendered, very well spoken, sir. That's
not me, that's Robert E. Lee. I don't know where
we got the audio. I felt as though he floated
right into the room. Um. Yeah, it's true. And that
(12:16):
has led many to believe that what he meant was
any of these Confederate monuments were counter to his idea
of how it would be best to deal with the
fallout from a war like that. That by having these
romanticizations or any kind of these big reminders staring you
in the face, whatever side you were on, it's not
(12:39):
a good thing, and it would continue to sow those
seeds of division and hostility between the winning and the
losing sides. Yeah, there's a great biography of Lee by
a fellow named Jonathan Horne, The Man Who Would Not
Be Washington fantastic title, and he points out that Lee himself,
Roberty Lee himself, after the Civil War and those five
(13:00):
years before his death, he opposed monuments, but specifically opposed
Confederate War monuments, And in his correspondence we have multiple
documented reasons for his opinion. So in one case he
questions the cost of a monument to Stonewall Jackson, and
he finds some other ways to approach this issue. But
(13:23):
his underlying prime objection to this is that we empower
a cause or an idea when we remember it. That's
why so many civilizations work so ardently in the past
and in the modern day to erase things from your
history books. In his mind, the war had ended, the
(13:48):
nation was one again, and it needed to look forward
to the future, rather than um celebrating this social upheaval
and then potentially leading to further discord down the road. Yeah.
He he puts it pretty eloquently in this this court
that we also have tape off as regards the erectional
(14:10):
such a monument as is contemplated. My conviction eels that
how evil gratefully it would be to the feelings of
the South, the attempting the present condition of the country
would have the effect of re todd instead of accelerating
its accomplishment, all continuing, if not adding to the difficulties
(14:31):
under which the Southern people label We do want to
point out there that he is using a word that
could be seen as offensive, but he's using it in
the correct way, you know what I mean. He's meaning
to sty me the progress of the country. Yeah. Indeed, Um,
And there's a this actually was so divisive it made
the news really recently because of the senseless and bizarre
(14:56):
and unfortunate uh attack for lack of a better term,
that happened in Charlottesville, Virginia in um where in fact,
a an alt right or a white supremacist group descended
on the small college town because of a proposal to
pull down a statue of General Roberty Lee. And there
(15:19):
was violence. Um, a young woman was hit and killed
by a car, and it at the time, it was
just utter chaos. It became a very divisive political issue.
Even before this event. It became a very divisive political issue,
the idea of should we erase these marks of the
past because of what they represent, which you know, you
(15:41):
could argue is racism, is division, is pro slavery attitudes.
Some Southerners, old school Southerners say it's their heritage or represents,
you know, just the history of the South, and that
taking it down is disrespectful to them. So say what
you will. Our president have this to say about it.
(16:02):
Sad to see the history and culture of our great
country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful
statues and monuments. Do you know, no, I I noticed
you didn't do a Trump voice for that, And I
think that's I think that's a good call, because I
gotta tell you, I've been looking around and I just cannot,
for the life of me, find a good impression of
that guy, you know what I mean, Like the Alec
(16:22):
Baldwin and one is not that great. Well, that's sort
of what makes his funny, right, is that it's like
it's it's it's yeah, it's so out of left field
that it just kind of is like cartoonist as you
would say, right. Yeah. Even Stephen Colbert h love the
guys just I don't know, maybe it's a tough voice.
They're the pros. Let us know if you if you've
seen a decent impression. And I'm not saying anything further
(16:45):
than that, it's just usually when someone's president, there's like
one person, often from Saturday Night Live, who does the
best impression of that president. And it looks like we're
still looking for one. No offense to any Alec Baldwin
fans in the how US. But your point, your point stands, Nolan.
It goes back to, uh, what I was saying at
the top. We see these ramifications carry on to the
(17:10):
modern day. Faulkner was right when he said the past
is not over. It's not even past. And I'm paraphrasing there,
but this is an important point I believe. Now currently
as it stands, there's somewhere around seven hundred and fifty
monuments all told, across the US that are um there
(17:32):
are memorials for the Civil War, and that's according to
the Southern Poverty Law Center. People who want these removed
to say that the continued presence of the monuments confers
undue dignity on a faction that fought to preserve slavery
and white supremacy. So they agree with Robert E. Lee,
(17:52):
but perhaps for different reasons. Yeah, and not to mention that.
In August, it's when PBS News Hour and NPR are
uh an emarrassed pole found that six people responding to
the pole thought that monuments such as this should stay
in place as historical symbols. So it is a tricky
argument because on the one hand, it's a form of
(18:14):
revisionist history. On the other hand, you know, real estate
is scarce, maybe we should devote it to some more
positive things, you know what I mean, like as opposed
to something that represents things that are painful to others
who have family members that possibly even lived through it
or were connected to it more directly. And one thing
that a lot of people miss when they hear the
(18:34):
headline Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate memorials, is that he
also opposed Civil War memorials in general. He turned down
the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association back in eighteen sixty nine.
He really wanted the battle fields to be erased, to
turn into farms, to turn into towns, another peaceful areas
(18:59):
of the nation, rather than memorializing them. He saw it
as a way to speed reconciliation. So it's not as
if he was holy repentant, you know what I mean,
Nor was he penitent. He said all of the memorials
would be better if they were left unbuilt, Ye for sure. Uh.
(19:22):
And this is one of those quotes, the original one
that we said about, you know, the sores of division
or whatever that you can very easily take out of
context and you use to support arguments on either side. Right,
And this is where our tail draws to a close.
But we didn't want to end on two somber a
(19:44):
note because there is a very specific type of unorthodox
Confederate memorial that will never be removed from the US
because it doesn't exist in the US. We're talking about
the Confederados, the ten thousand to twenty thousand Confederate American
(20:07):
refugees who fled to Brazil, mainly in sal Polo, and
UH then lived, reproduced, had descendants, They founded the city Americana, Brazil.
We did this on previous episodes. Yeah, it was that
obsession with the Confederate South, Uh in the very same
way that they romanticize it in an almost weird kind
(20:30):
of like alternate reality man in the High Castle, fictionalized
kind of way, as though if they had won the war,
what it would be like that was that's a weird one.
And you can you can see the residents of Americana
Salthpolo talking about how they how much they enjoy the
festival they hold every year, and how it's for them
not about commemorating a regime, right, it's not about commemorating
(20:54):
um racism or slavery year, all the things tied to
the Civil War. It's just for them part of their culture.
Very interesting town. So if you've ever been there, check
it out and let us know what you find. UH
And you know in fact, snopes dot com, the the
famous fact checking site, decided to weigh in on this
(21:17):
as well, with the question was Robert Eale opposed to
Confederate monuments, and they classify it as a mixture of
true and false, with the truth being UH supporting the
validity of those quotes that he expressed opposition to UH
Civil War monuments memorials, including the Stonewall Jackson one specifically,
(21:39):
But what isn't clear is the breadth of this position.
His opposition to Confederate monuments was probably more pronounced than
his opposition towards Civil War monuments in general, but it
was still against against them overall. That's right, that's right,
but it is one of those mixed, uh, mixed Snopes responses.
(22:03):
And then the continuation of the President Trump's quote from
earlier or the tweet was this, he says, you can't
change history, but you can learn from it. Robert Lee,
Stonewall Jackson, Who's next? Washington? Jefferson? So foolish. Also, the
beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns,
and parks will be greatly missed and never able to
(22:25):
be completely replaced. Uh. So we we can see where
where our boy Donnie Trump falls in that debate. I'd
also like to hear from you, fellow ridiculous historians, where
where do you fall in this debate? And speaking of
hearing from you, what do what do you guys say?
We do a little listener mail. I think that's a
(22:48):
smashing idea. Did you see that? One listener wrote in
and said that the listener male sound effect fills them
with abject terror. Yes, yeah, interesting was that on Facebook?
It was on Facebook. I think you can you can
see what we're talking about if you join forces with
us on Facebook. At ridiculous historians just getting that plug
out of the way right now. So so what do
(23:10):
we got? You got you got any hot takes? No?
I do. I got one from Hannah uh says hello.
I was recently listening to your when West Virginia begged
for foreign aid from the U. S s R. And
I was inspired to inquire about a podcast on forgat TONI.
Forgat TONI as a west central section of Illinois that
was forgotten when highways were expanded west and there was
(23:31):
an attempt to secede from the United States. This section
of Illinois felt cut off and decided to bring attention
to it with this major move. I have lived in
this area my whole life, and it amazes me how
few people know of it. Please consider it for a
future podcast. Thanks, Hannah, Consider it considered, Hannah, Yes, consider
it considered. I had not heard of forgot Tonia before
(23:54):
receiving your letter, Hannah, and I think it's fascinating. I
actually reading a lot about it off air. And I
hope that there are license plates. I hope that there
are stickers. I hope that you can, you know, send
mail with forgot Tonia stamps. But I look forward to
learning more. And before we uh Forgetonia this segment, let's
(24:20):
have let's have one more listener mail. Rebecca C. Writes
to us with an email entitled or Deal by Cake. Hello,
says Rebecca, I have been listening to this podcast since
it started and it has become one of my favorites. Thanks.
In parentheses, she says, I love the quister. We have
(24:40):
complicated feelings there. The war began by the dog was timely,
as it came up in trivia last night. Or the
guy who sets the questions also listened to the show
wouldn't you discussed undergoing trials. I was reminded of or
Deal by Cake, where the person would have to eat
a dry cake without choking after swear into something, the
(25:01):
idea being that if you were lying, guilt would stick
in your throat, just a thought it might leave less
scars than other ordeals. Rebecca, thanks for writing. I had
never heard of the Trial by Cake. The closest I
remember hearing is that old stand up bit about cake
or death right and Eddie Izard bit. I just got
confirmed off air by Casey, But I don't know. I
(25:24):
would give it a try. It sounds kind of like
a an old school version of the Saltine Challenge. Have
you heard of that? Is that where you eat a
bunch of saltines? Is it like the cinnamon Challenge? Yeah?
Pretty much so. I don't know if that's a way
to set legal precedent, but um, I'd be interested in
trying it. I wonder if we could institute. Do you
think HR would let us get away with that? I mean,
(25:45):
I I say we Uh. What is it better to
ask for forgiveness than permission? Especially when Cake is involved? Man,
sign me up. I'll try anything I want, especially if
Cake is involved. So thank you so much, Hanna, thank you, Rebecca,
and to thank you for listening. This concludes listener mail,
(26:06):
but not our show. Tune in because we have more
ridiculous stuff on the way. As always, In the meantime,
you can learn more about ridiculous, bizarre, strange exploits throughout
the story of human civilization on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians,
our Instagram, or our Twitter. You can also follow our
(26:26):
own personal adventures on Instagram where I am at Ben Boland,
I am at Embryonic Insider. Big thanks to super producer
Casey Pagram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, research associate
Gaye Bluesier, and of course I think we're due for
a Christopher Hasiotis appearance and possibly a creepy drop in
from our arch nemesis the quis or Jonathan Strickland. I
(26:48):
have PTSD my friend podcast Trauma Traumatic Stress Disorder, because
this is gonna sound weird, but there are I know
that it sounds like a bit sometimes, but there are
genuinely times when we don't know that he's coming. It's
it's strange, It's it's a bizarre situation and we've just
(27:09):
been rolling with it. It's also where when he just
kind of drops down from the ceiling and then his
head turns around three hundred and sixty degrees and he
kind of makes a weird cackling sound that's a very guttural,
like from the throat kind of situation. Yeah, this is
not a bit. Sometimes he doesn't even make it to
the mic. He just drops in exorcist style and then
like skitters back up into the ceiling. It is quite
(27:30):
traumatic for all concerned. But at the same time, I
missed the little guy. You know, I'd like a statue.
I gotta tell you, I was conflicted with us because
I see Robert E. Lee's point about not wanting to
memorialize this, uh, this intense divisive period in time. But also,
wouldn't it be kind of cool to have a statue
(27:53):
of your of yourself? I mean, so it's such a
Kanye West move, you know, Casey, would you get a
statue of yourself? Probably not, someone else would have to
build it right at the very least. But I'll tell
you what you will get. Maybe not a statue, but
some kind of apparel I think maybe forthcoming. Oh oh,
(28:14):
stay tuned.
Casey, can we get a little bit of a kind
of a Gettysburg vibe music, you know, like with the
drums flute, there we go. I feel that cadence. It
sounds like a nineties song, like like like Jumper by
Third Eye Blind or something you know from centuries earlier. Yeah, yeah, totally.
It's those It's those marching drums that really give my
(00:45):
give my fields up. And speaking of fields, thanks for
tuning in. We hope that you are feeling great. Uh,
this is ridiculous history. My name is Ben, my name
is Noel, and the man on the ones and twos
as always give it up for our super producer, Casey Pegram.
Today's episode does concern some heavy history that we we
(01:09):
have to bring into the story, but we we don't
have to get to two in the weeds about it.
You've heard the story a thousand thousand times, whether or
not you live in the US. It's a story of
brother against brother, North and South, a nation divided. The
US Civil War. Well, how would you describe the US
(01:31):
Civil War to someone who had never heard of it?
It was real, main spirited man. Brothers were fighting brothers.
Everyone was at each other's throats in the North from
the South, and why can't we all just get along?
And it wasn't any fun, Man, wasn't any fun. From
April twelfth, eighteen sixty one, to April nine, eighteen sixty five,
(01:52):
this nation was embroiled in what would later become the
most heavily documented research war in US history. Yeah, that too,
So I think all of those facts together are are
pretty good high level look at at this conflict. But
the ramifications of the U. S Civil War carry on
(02:14):
in the United States today, not just in the southern
part of the continent, but in the policies and the
legislation created on a state and federal level. The war
created several larger than life historical figures, people who were
(02:35):
and are enormously influential here in Abraham Lincoln, for instance, right,
the guy who brought everybody back together hell or high water.
And today's episode is about another one of those giants,
a man named Robert E. Lee, or we can only
imagine Bobby Lee to his friends. Yeah, or maybe some
(02:57):
people call him Eddie because his middle name the East
for Edward. Yeah. I know that was eating a lot
of you up inside, not knowing what that he stood for.
Was it corn exactly. So what do we know about
Robert E. Lee? Well, like okay, So he was born
January nineteenth of eighteen oh seven, passed away October twelfth
of eighteen seventy, and he was a decorated um general.
(03:21):
He was born in a plantation in Westmoreland County, Virginia,
UM and he came from a military family. His father's
name was Major General Henry Lee the third had a
pretty dope nickname as with light Horse Harry UM and
it was He was also the governor of Virginia UH.
And he was had Robert E. With his second wife
(03:42):
and Hill Carter. And he was raised in this very
regimented military family and he carried on that legacy with
a career in military engineering. His father actually had some
difficulty is that he ended up in debtors prison due
to some financial troubles he had while doing business in
(04:05):
the West Indies. UM. But but Robert was left undeterred
and he got himself a pretty choice spot at the
prestigious military academy at West Point, where he graduated second
in his class um in eighteen twenty nine. But it
would be some time before Lee actually ever saw battle.
(04:26):
It wasn't until eighteen forty six in the War with
Mexico that he was able to really get his feet, wet,
his hands bloody. Whatever the euphemisity you'd like to use
under General Winfield Scott's brigade or whatever you want, regiments,
I don't know. Uh. He became a pretty well respected
(04:48):
soldier for bravery, and he came out of that situation
with the rank of colonel and then was appointed as
superintendent at West Point, where he served from eighteen fIF
two to eighteen fifty five. But um, let's remember where
this story starts. He was at heart a Southern gentleman
raised on a Southern plantation, and was also a slave owner,
(05:13):
and reports are that he was quite cruel to his
slaves in fact, and in a biography brief biography on
Battlefields dot org Um, the writer points out that during
his tenure as the superintendent, which is like the head
hauncho of West Point, he would be overseeing cadets who
would serve on both sides of the Civil War, both
(05:35):
under him and in opposition to his forces. Because, as
we know, he went on to become the general of
the Confederate Forces, which were the forces that supported slavery right. So,
one thing that people forgot pretty quickly after the close
of the Civil War and Robert E. Lee's death is
(05:57):
that he was by no means a perfect man. There
are a lot of myths about Lee that are still
circulating today, one of those being that he was opposed
to slavery. After the Civil War, he did attempt to
present himself as always having been opposed to slavery. In
an interview shortly after his surrender at Appomattox, he said
(06:20):
that the best men of the South have been eager
to do away with the abominable practice. In eighteen sixty six,
he testified before the Joint Committee on Reconstruction that he
had always been in favor of emancipation, gradual emancipation. However,
he owned or managed slaves for over thirty years in
eighteen sixty one, in April, he oversaw roughly two hundred individuals.
(06:45):
Not to mention that there were reports. You know, maybe
we haven't have cocon of present confirmation, but he wasn't
a particularly kind slave owner. That he may have been
much more on the cruel and brutal side. We give
this just to lay out those facts. These are very,
very important things. However, his personal or non military life aside,
(07:08):
he was known as one of the finest officers in
the US Army. In eighteen fifty nine, he was called
upon to suppress the raid at Harper's Ferry led by
the abolitionist John Brown, and was so successful that in
eighteen sixty one, Abraham Lincoln offered him command of the
(07:30):
full federal forces. Not only did he decline, he resigned
from the army when the state of Virginia seceded from
the Union on April seventeen of the same year, his
reasoning being I cannot make war against my own people.
And he didn't just resign, He didn't go, you know,
(07:51):
hang out on a farm somewhere. Instead, he joined up
with the newly formed Confederate Army as a general. So
his first military engagement is at a place called cheat Mountain, Virginia.
Well now it's West Virginia, but back then it was
just Cheap Mountain, Virginia on September eleventh, eighteen sixty one.
(08:12):
It was a victory for the Union, but he still
weathered the storm and was also a military advisor to
President Jefferson Davis until eighteen sixty two and there are
so many fantastic stories, books, biographies, podcast, research papers, and
(08:34):
so on written about the Civil War that we would
we would helpfully refer you to any one of those.
Let's fast forward to the end of the Civil War,
because this is when our story really begins to take shape.
So we said that the Civil War ended in eighteen
(08:57):
sixty five, right, Yeah, it's true because upon um defeat,
Robert E. Lee had to or didn't have to, but
he seemed to acquiesce to swearing allegiance to the Union
and to admitting defeat, and to not being a particularly
sore sport about the whole affair because he was, you know,
in fact, a professional military man, and he understood the
(09:20):
rules of engagement, and he wasn't gonna pitch a fit
about it, and he kind of went quietly. Yeah. On
April nine, eighteen sixty five, Lee surrendered the Confederate Army
to Ulysses S. Grant at the Appomattox Courthouse. This ended
the Civil War, I mean, effectively, he went home on parole.
His life went on for about five years after the
(09:43):
Civil Wars end, and he eventually became president of Washington
College right before his death on October twelfth, in eighteen seventy.
There's an interesting timeline here, right, So he only lives
about five years after the close of the Civil War.
And similar to the way that myths sprang up about
(10:06):
George Washington, you know, even while he was alive and
certainly immediately after his death, we see the same thing
in certain parts of American culture with Robert E. Lee.
He was romanticized, he was memorialized. You could say, people
in the South wanted to build statues to him. They
(10:26):
wanted to waive the stars and bars and talk about
I don't know, the South rising again, right, Yeah, I
mean that's what they said, absolutely, But it ends up
feeding into some pretty toxic romanticizations of these ideas. Oh yeah,
let's have no illusions about that. It's it's it's it's
it's bad stuff. And we will get into how that
plays into more contemporary history in just a little bit.
(10:53):
In an article on PBS dot Org by Lisa and
I'm gonna go ahead and really french this one up
Lisa Arden, which I may be overpronouncing it. I'd rather
overpronounced than underpronounced. She mentions how Lee was pretty clear
about the way he felt about that kind of romanticization
well before his death. Um, and that he stressed this
(11:15):
idea that it was very important for a country that
had been torn by war to move past it, and
that includes not memorializing it with any kind of symbolism
or militant monument remembrances, things like that that would continue
to cause UH to sort of sow the seeds of separatism.
(11:35):
And there's a really great quote from him that you
think you can kind of take as at faith faith value,
and then we can kind of dissect a little bit too, Ben,
Do you want to read that one? Sure? This quote
comes from a piece of correspondence about a proposed memorial
at Gettysburg written in eighteen sixty nine. I think it
was not to keep open the souls of war, but
(11:56):
to follow the examples of those nations who wouldn't they
able to obliterate the marks of civil strath to commit
to oblivion. Little feelings engendered, very well spoken, sir. That's
not me, that's Robert E. Lee. I don't know where
we got the audio. I felt as though he floated
right into the room. Um. Yeah, it's true. And that
(12:16):
has led many to believe that what he meant was
any of these Confederate monuments were counter to his idea
of how it would be best to deal with the
fallout from a war like that. That by having these
romanticizations or any kind of these big reminders staring you
in the face, whatever side you were on, it's not
(12:39):
a good thing, and it would continue to sow those
seeds of division and hostility between the winning and the
losing sides. Yeah, there's a great biography of Lee by
a fellow named Jonathan Horne, The Man Who Would Not
Be Washington fantastic title, and he points out that Lee himself,
Roberty Lee himself, after the Civil War and those five
(13:00):
years before his death, he opposed monuments, but specifically opposed
Confederate War monuments, And in his correspondence we have multiple
documented reasons for his opinion. So in one case he
questions the cost of a monument to Stonewall Jackson, and
he finds some other ways to approach this issue. But
(13:23):
his underlying prime objection to this is that we empower
a cause or an idea when we remember it. That's
why so many civilizations work so ardently in the past
and in the modern day to erase things from your
history books. In his mind, the war had ended, the
(13:48):
nation was one again, and it needed to look forward
to the future, rather than um celebrating this social upheaval
and then potentially leading to further discord down the road. Yeah.
He he puts it pretty eloquently in this this court
that we also have tape off as regards the erectional
(14:10):
such a monument as is contemplated. My conviction eels that
how evil gratefully it would be to the feelings of
the South, the attempting the present condition of the country
would have the effect of re todd instead of accelerating
its accomplishment, all continuing, if not adding to the difficulties
(14:31):
under which the Southern people label We do want to
point out there that he is using a word that
could be seen as offensive, but he's using it in
the correct way, you know what I mean. He's meaning
to sty me the progress of the country. Yeah. Indeed, Um,
And there's a this actually was so divisive it made
the news really recently because of the senseless and bizarre
(14:56):
and unfortunate uh attack for lack of a better term,
that happened in Charlottesville, Virginia in um where in fact,
a an alt right or a white supremacist group descended
on the small college town because of a proposal to
pull down a statue of General Roberty Lee. And there
(15:19):
was violence. Um, a young woman was hit and killed
by a car, and it at the time, it was
just utter chaos. It became a very divisive political issue.
Even before this event. It became a very divisive political issue,
the idea of should we erase these marks of the
past because of what they represent, which you know, you
(15:41):
could argue is racism, is division, is pro slavery attitudes.
Some Southerners, old school Southerners say it's their heritage or represents,
you know, just the history of the South, and that
taking it down is disrespectful to them. So say what
you will. Our president have this to say about it.
(16:02):
Sad to see the history and culture of our great
country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful
statues and monuments. Do you know, no, I I noticed
you didn't do a Trump voice for that, And I
think that's I think that's a good call, because I
gotta tell you, I've been looking around and I just cannot,
for the life of me, find a good impression of
that guy, you know what I mean, Like the Alec
(16:22):
Baldwin and one is not that great. Well, that's sort
of what makes his funny, right, is that it's like
it's it's it's yeah, it's so out of left field
that it just kind of is like cartoonist as you
would say, right. Yeah. Even Stephen Colbert h love the
guys just I don't know, maybe it's a tough voice.
They're the pros. Let us know if you if you've
seen a decent impression. And I'm not saying anything further
(16:45):
than that, it's just usually when someone's president, there's like
one person, often from Saturday Night Live, who does the
best impression of that president. And it looks like we're
still looking for one. No offense to any Alec Baldwin
fans in the how US. But your point, your point stands, Nolan.
It goes back to, uh, what I was saying at
the top. We see these ramifications carry on to the
(17:10):
modern day. Faulkner was right when he said the past
is not over. It's not even past. And I'm paraphrasing there,
but this is an important point I believe. Now currently
as it stands, there's somewhere around seven hundred and fifty
monuments all told, across the US that are um there
(17:32):
are memorials for the Civil War, and that's according to
the Southern Poverty Law Center. People who want these removed
to say that the continued presence of the monuments confers
undue dignity on a faction that fought to preserve slavery
and white supremacy. So they agree with Robert E. Lee,
(17:52):
but perhaps for different reasons. Yeah, and not to mention that.
In August, it's when PBS News Hour and NPR are
uh an emarrassed pole found that six people responding to
the pole thought that monuments such as this should stay
in place as historical symbols. So it is a tricky
argument because on the one hand, it's a form of
(18:14):
revisionist history. On the other hand, you know, real estate
is scarce, maybe we should devote it to some more
positive things, you know what I mean, like as opposed
to something that represents things that are painful to others
who have family members that possibly even lived through it
or were connected to it more directly. And one thing
that a lot of people miss when they hear the
(18:34):
headline Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate memorials, is that he
also opposed Civil War memorials in general. He turned down
the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association back in eighteen sixty nine.
He really wanted the battle fields to be erased, to
turn into farms, to turn into towns, another peaceful areas
(18:59):
of the nation, rather than memorializing them. He saw it
as a way to speed reconciliation. So it's not as
if he was holy repentant, you know what I mean,
Nor was he penitent. He said all of the memorials
would be better if they were left unbuilt, Ye for sure. Uh.
(19:22):
And this is one of those quotes, the original one
that we said about, you know, the sores of division
or whatever that you can very easily take out of
context and you use to support arguments on either side. Right,
And this is where our tail draws to a close.
But we didn't want to end on two somber a
(19:44):
note because there is a very specific type of unorthodox
Confederate memorial that will never be removed from the US
because it doesn't exist in the US. We're talking about
the Confederados, the ten thousand to twenty thousand Confederate American
(20:07):
refugees who fled to Brazil, mainly in sal Polo, and
UH then lived, reproduced, had descendants, They founded the city Americana, Brazil.
We did this on previous episodes. Yeah, it was that
obsession with the Confederate South, Uh in the very same
way that they romanticize it in an almost weird kind
(20:30):
of like alternate reality man in the High Castle, fictionalized
kind of way, as though if they had won the war,
what it would be like that was that's a weird one.
And you can you can see the residents of Americana
Salthpolo talking about how they how much they enjoy the
festival they hold every year, and how it's for them
not about commemorating a regime, right, it's not about commemorating
(20:54):
um racism or slavery year, all the things tied to
the Civil War. It's just for them part of their culture.
Very interesting town. So if you've ever been there, check
it out and let us know what you find. UH
And you know in fact, snopes dot com, the the
famous fact checking site, decided to weigh in on this
(21:17):
as well, with the question was Robert Eale opposed to
Confederate monuments, and they classify it as a mixture of
true and false, with the truth being UH supporting the
validity of those quotes that he expressed opposition to UH
Civil War monuments memorials, including the Stonewall Jackson one specifically,
(21:39):
But what isn't clear is the breadth of this position.
His opposition to Confederate monuments was probably more pronounced than
his opposition towards Civil War monuments in general, but it
was still against against them overall. That's right, that's right,
but it is one of those mixed, uh, mixed Snopes responses.
(22:03):
And then the continuation of the President Trump's quote from
earlier or the tweet was this, he says, you can't
change history, but you can learn from it. Robert Lee,
Stonewall Jackson, Who's next? Washington? Jefferson? So foolish. Also, the
beauty that is being taken out of our cities, towns,
and parks will be greatly missed and never able to
(22:25):
be completely replaced. Uh. So we we can see where
where our boy Donnie Trump falls in that debate. I'd
also like to hear from you, fellow ridiculous historians, where
where do you fall in this debate? And speaking of
hearing from you, what do what do you guys say?
We do a little listener mail. I think that's a
(22:48):
smashing idea. Did you see that? One listener wrote in
and said that the listener male sound effect fills them
with abject terror. Yes, yeah, interesting was that on Facebook?
It was on Facebook. I think you can you can
see what we're talking about if you join forces with
us on Facebook. At ridiculous historians just getting that plug
out of the way right now. So so what do
(23:10):
we got? You got you got any hot takes? No?
I do. I got one from Hannah uh says hello.
I was recently listening to your when West Virginia begged
for foreign aid from the U. S s R. And
I was inspired to inquire about a podcast on forgat TONI.
Forgat TONI as a west central section of Illinois that
was forgotten when highways were expanded west and there was
(23:31):
an attempt to secede from the United States. This section
of Illinois felt cut off and decided to bring attention
to it with this major move. I have lived in
this area my whole life, and it amazes me how
few people know of it. Please consider it for a
future podcast. Thanks, Hannah, Consider it considered, Hannah, Yes, consider
it considered. I had not heard of forgot Tonia before
(23:54):
receiving your letter, Hannah, and I think it's fascinating. I
actually reading a lot about it off air. And I
hope that there are license plates. I hope that there
are stickers. I hope that you can, you know, send
mail with forgot Tonia stamps. But I look forward to
learning more. And before we uh Forgetonia this segment, let's
(24:20):
have let's have one more listener mail. Rebecca C. Writes
to us with an email entitled or Deal by Cake. Hello,
says Rebecca, I have been listening to this podcast since
it started and it has become one of my favorites. Thanks.
In parentheses, she says, I love the quister. We have
(24:40):
complicated feelings there. The war began by the dog was timely,
as it came up in trivia last night. Or the
guy who sets the questions also listened to the show
wouldn't you discussed undergoing trials. I was reminded of or
Deal by Cake, where the person would have to eat
a dry cake without choking after swear into something, the
(25:01):
idea being that if you were lying, guilt would stick
in your throat, just a thought it might leave less
scars than other ordeals. Rebecca, thanks for writing. I had
never heard of the Trial by Cake. The closest I
remember hearing is that old stand up bit about cake
or death right and Eddie Izard bit. I just got
confirmed off air by Casey, But I don't know. I
(25:24):
would give it a try. It sounds kind of like
a an old school version of the Saltine Challenge. Have
you heard of that? Is that where you eat a
bunch of saltines? Is it like the cinnamon Challenge? Yeah?
Pretty much so. I don't know if that's a way
to set legal precedent, but um, I'd be interested in
trying it. I wonder if we could institute. Do you
think HR would let us get away with that? I mean,
(25:45):
I I say we Uh. What is it better to
ask for forgiveness than permission? Especially when Cake is involved? Man,
sign me up. I'll try anything I want, especially if
Cake is involved. So thank you so much, Hanna, thank you, Rebecca,
and to thank you for listening. This concludes listener mail,
(26:06):
but not our show. Tune in because we have more
ridiculous stuff on the way. As always, In the meantime,
you can learn more about ridiculous, bizarre, strange exploits throughout
the story of human civilization on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians,
our Instagram, or our Twitter. You can also follow our
(26:26):
own personal adventures on Instagram where I am at Ben Boland,
I am at Embryonic Insider. Big thanks to super producer
Casey Pagram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, research associate
Gaye Bluesier, and of course I think we're due for
a Christopher Hasiotis appearance and possibly a creepy drop in
from our arch nemesis the quis or Jonathan Strickland. I
(26:48):
have PTSD my friend podcast Trauma Traumatic Stress Disorder, because
this is gonna sound weird, but there are I know
that it sounds like a bit sometimes, but there are
genuinely times when we don't know that he's coming. It's
it's strange, It's it's a bizarre situation and we've just
(27:09):
been rolling with it. It's also where when he just
kind of drops down from the ceiling and then his
head turns around three hundred and sixty degrees and he
kind of makes a weird cackling sound that's a very guttural,
like from the throat kind of situation. Yeah, this is
not a bit. Sometimes he doesn't even make it to
the mic. He just drops in exorcist style and then
like skitters back up into the ceiling. It is quite
(27:30):
traumatic for all concerned. But at the same time, I
missed the little guy. You know, I'd like a statue.
I gotta tell you, I was conflicted with us because
I see Robert E. Lee's point about not wanting to
memorialize this, uh, this intense divisive period in time. But also,
wouldn't it be kind of cool to have a statue
(27:53):
of your of yourself? I mean, so it's such a
Kanye West move, you know, Casey, would you get a
statue of yourself? Probably not, someone else would have to
build it right at the very least. But I'll tell
you what you will get. Maybe not a statue, but
some kind of apparel I think maybe forthcoming. Oh oh,
(28:14):
stay tuned.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.