November 22, 2018 • 28 mins
What inspired Rudyard Kipling to write The Jungle Book? Join the guys as they explore the real-life, tragic stories of feral children abandoned by their human parents, adopted by animals and raised in the wild.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yea. Now this is the law of the jungle, as
old and as true as the sky, and the wolf
that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that
(00:32):
shall break it must die. That is part of the
law of the jungle. Rudder kipling, Ben, you know what
I thought you were gonna do? What do you think
I was gonna thought you're gonna do? Now, this is
a story all about how my life got flipped it
upside there. Let me take a minute. Just sit right
back as on the bell air. I think you're nailed it.
I guess if we wanted to do parody lyrics would
(00:54):
be like now, this is a story all about how
my parents left me in the woods across town own.
I like to take a minute, just sit right there.
Tell you how I grew up with a cat and
a bear. You know what I mean? That's pulled up
to I don't know. This is your bag, Ben. You
did a good job. Yeah, Because we're talking about what
we're talking about sort of a slice of history, a
(01:17):
type thing that that encompasses a couple of different periods.
Um The at the base of our story today is
uh one particular feral child that was found in India
and likely served as the basis for one of your
favorite racist works of fiction. Ben is one of my
my favorite I'm doing favorite in quotation fingers here, Well
(01:40):
it is. The Jungle Book is an amazing story. It's
almost as amazing as our super producer Casey Pegram. But
you're right, No, the story of Dina Santa Char not
his real name. As far as we know. Our story
takes us to part of India called utter Pradesh, which
I may be mispronouncing. It's sort of like northern central
(02:04):
India on the border of Nepal And. In eighteen seventy two,
there was a group of hunters who encountered a pack
of wolves bounding through the forest. But not just any
ordinary pack of wolves, right, No, no, they say, what ho,
I've cited a man cub on all falls scamperings as
(02:27):
though he was a member of the pack. And then
they proceeded to smoke the wolf pack out of their cave,
kill the wolves, and bring this this man cub to
like a local orphanage, because you know, he clearly couldn't
possibly be happy living in the woods, free and naked
and with his animal brethren. I feel like you've got
(02:49):
a personal steak in this blood, right, You're right, I don't.
I just think, like, you know, I mean, it's so sad.
They literally there's different accounts of the story that they
killed all of the wolves, or that they at least
old the mother wolf and again smoked them out of
the cave. But you know, it's such so presumptuous to me.
It was he was he was like, what six years old?
I want to say, yeah, he was six. I guess,
(03:10):
I don't know. I guess they felt like they were
doing their their Christian duty. They probably did, but you know,
the wolves most likely attacked them because first off, they
set a fire and then they were actively intruding into
Like if unless a wolf is threatened or starving, it
doesn't care what you do. Human. Would these have been
white hunter has been or would these have been Hindi
(03:32):
like people from the region. Is this during colonialism or
is this a little bit before. This is during the
British raj. So so it's not clear if these were
white hunters or if these were local men, and not
that that really matters, but um, well we'll get to that. So,
so the boy is brought to town, to the village
and to a a mission run orphanage that's run by
(03:54):
a priest by the name of Father Earhart, who is
very much trying to convert the local population to his
type of his his way of thinking, right, which is
which is Catholicism. He's a missionary, right. And he says
he actually gives the kid his name. The kid doesn't
(04:15):
have a human name yet, and so he names him
Dina and Sonny Char and Sonny Char means Saturday. It's right,
which is the day of the week that he was
delivered to this guy, which I I think that checks out.
It's not a huge burst of creativity. But I also
think I also this is just a personal aesthetic nom
But I think it's really cool when people have names
(04:36):
their days of the week, like Wednesday Adams. I thought
that was great. Somebody's last name is Saturday. They just
feel kind of fun to me. And I like the
idea of his girl Friday, you know, yeah, And also
Mr Wednesday from American Gods, Yes, yes, Mr Wednesday. I
don't know any I don't think I know anyone named Tuesday.
If you're listening and you happen to be named Tuesday
(04:59):
or after any day though, after any day of the week.
We don't want to discriminate. Yeah, let's what happens next.
So what happens next is that father Earhart says some things.
We have a quotation from him that I think encapsulates
the condescending attitude so prevalent at the time. He says
that he thinks Santa char is undoubtedly what he called pagal,
(05:21):
meaning idiotic or slow. But he says, despite this, Santa
Chars still shows signs of reason and sometimes actual shrewdness.
But what we know now with the benefit of retrospect,
is that Santa Charg's behavior had a lot in common
with the behavior of other case similar cases of feral children. Yeah,
(05:46):
and that's the thing, the most important takeaway from this
and the interaction with some we'll talk about some others,
but they there's a window, very crucial window for language development,
and and uh, this child had soundly missed that window.
So it basically means that developing any kind of spoken
in language or being assimilated into speaking with you know,
(06:08):
the folks in the village was going to be noon impossible. Right,
That's that's the problematic part. You're absolutely correct about this,
not just this concept of language learning or language acquisition,
but also the concept of certain other behavior acquisitions. So
Santa Char allegedly would not express himself in ways that
(06:32):
seemed innately human. For instance, for a long time, we
as a species assumed that smiling or laughter were innate things,
sort of how like people, you say, all babies are
born knowing how to swim? You know what I mean?
I thought you were going to say swear all babies
are born knowing how to swear? And if if luke
(06:52):
who's talking, is any indication? Right? Right? Fantastic series of documentaries.
But the problem with Santa Char is that he did
not seem to laugh or smile, and he didn't seem
to bond with people. With one notable exception, he would
only bond with animals. There was a kid that he
(07:13):
bonded with, which was another feral child who came to
the same orphanage. By this time, Santa Char had learned
to wear human clothing. He could reportedly dress himself quote
with difficulty, and keep track of his cup and his plate.
But he showed this younger kid they would hang out,
(07:34):
and he showed him how to drink from a cup,
And apparently he also became quite the chain smoker. Yeah,
that was his Uh, that was his one big human
habit he picked up, right, what a what I one
to pick up? That's you know, it's it's heartbreaking when
you think about this because in other cases, or other
alleged cases, we should say, because we can get into
(07:56):
the the science of this a little bit later, in
many other cases where something like this is alleged to
have occurred, there's not a way to fix it. You
can mitigate some of the some of the issues, but
you can't repair them. These this this guy's Sanda char
(08:17):
was likely incapable of, you know, going on to become
a priest himself or make a ted talk. Here's my
question for you, Ben, this is why I had such
an extra grind at the top of the show with
these horrible, horrible men smoking out the lovely wolf and
family that had raised this young lad. I think I
know where you're going. Yeah, wouldn't he has been better
off frolicking in the forest, free and naked with the
(08:40):
wolf pack rather than the Sicondra mission orphanage. Yeah, it's
a good question. Stuck between two worlds, right, he can't
fully be human and he can't fully be an animal.
It's it's just, uh, it's really heartbreaking if you think
about it. Yeah, you know, and we have to ask ourselves,
what's the what is the ultimate um priorities? Equality of life?
(09:02):
Is it because our civilization is doing something that are
we conflating living the way we do with living the
correct way? You know what? I mean? That's right. I
think it's a I think there's an inherent judgment call
at play here. Is it about protecting the life of
the child? Um, I don't know. Obviously, a six year
(09:22):
old orphan running around with a bunch of wolves probably
isn't the most safe thing in the world. But um,
I'm not sure. Man, I'm of two minds of it.
It's clearly it's clearly causing me some conflict internally. There
are arguments on both sides. You know what, when you
see pictures of the guy, because there are actual photographs
of Dina Sano char which is why we can put
some more weight into this story in comparison to other
(09:46):
stories like Romulus and Remus raised by a wolf that's mythology,
there are any photographs of them. This this guy though,
when you look at the pictures, it's heartbreaking man. He's
clearly uncomfortable having to wear these clothes. He doesn't look
like he's super comfortable standing on two feet, stand on
(10:08):
two legs rather, and apparently he continued like he did,
learning from a plate like you said, but he continued
to prefer raw meat to anything else, and he would
still sniff it before eating it up until he passed away. Um,
I believe at a pretty early age. If I'm not
mistaken from what's thought to have been tuberculosis. Why don't
(10:31):
we talk a little bit more about some other famous
feral children throughout history, Ben, and kind of do a
little contrast and compare. Sure, Yeah, let's let's go with
let's see, do you wanna Why don't we start with
children who had also been quote unquote raised by other animals?
How does that sound? That does sound good to me? Ben?
(10:52):
All right, Well, we have that, we have that other
feral child that was found and brought to the same
mission orphanage. But then we have we have examples such
as um the Lobo wolf girl from eighteen forty five
to eighteen fifty two. In eighteen forty five, she was
seen running in Mexico on all fours with a pack
(11:14):
of wolves attacking a herd of goats. A year later,
she was seen with the wolves eating a goat. People
tried to capture her, She was captured, but she escaped.
And then she was seen in eighteen fifty two suckling
two wolf clubs, at which point she ran into the
woods and was never seen again. And I just want
to backtrack just lightly. Um, India in particular has a
(11:37):
history of producing these feral children. Um. In addition to
Santa chere there and his his buddy who was at
the orphanage. UM, over the years, there have been uh
several other cases including wolf children, panther children, dog children,
chicken children, and even gazelle children. So UM, this this
is kind of mythology that Rudyard Kipling would continue to
(12:01):
kind of inject into the minds of the West. Um,
there was some truth to it. Yeah, this is this
is where we get into a little bit of a
speculative thing. But I believe it's safe to speculate here.
Rudard Kipling was aware of the story of Dina, and
he then went on to write The Jungle Book with
(12:22):
a character of Mowgli. Now did we talk about we
we we we kind of alluded pretty harshly to Kipling's
imperialist leanings in his um kind of inherent not greatness. Um,
what was he trying to communicate with the story of
the man Cub beyond just the kind of lighthearted story
(12:43):
of a of a boy, you know, connected back to nature.
It's an interesting question. So this guy is most well
known for things like the Jungle Book, maybe that mongoose story. Uh,
the poem if, which is a wonderful poe him. But
he is also the author of a poem called the
(13:04):
white Man's Burden. And this was not a sarcastic comment
on his part or a sarcastic statement. When he is
writing the Jungle Book, he is writing in a context
of rampant othering and rationalization. So British forces at this
(13:26):
time are thinking, we the The implicit problem is you
cannot subjugate people an entire culture and then say, oh,
they are equal to us. We're just doing it because
we want resources and we're you know, we're no better
than robbers. You have to say that we are somehow better,
we're somehow more human for lack of a better state.
(13:49):
So the white Man's burden is that like the inherent
betterness of the white man and their mission to kind
of indoctrinate anyone that they see as being lesser. Yeah,
that's that's the idea. It's UM that they are somehow
ideologically freeing people who have existed thousands of years before
(14:11):
being backward or something right right, bringing them forward, awakening
to them to what they thought was the true religion,
which would be something like the aristocracy, Christianity, capitalism, kind
of all in its morass, in its own mix, uh,
and then over time making them a little less bad,
never white, never as good as the British, just a
(14:35):
little less bad, right. And this theme resonates in some
of the ideas of UM things that would would be
depicted in the US as well, the concept of the
noble the quote unquote noble savage you've heard that, you know,
like untouched by the fetters of true civilization, which is
(14:58):
kind of what Mowgli is meant to be. Mowgli is
kind of this innocent babe in the woods who has
this nobility, but of course, at the end of the
story pursues his destiny in the world of men because
it's inevitable, because that's what you're supposed to do. And
this leads us to some other stories. You had mentioned
that India had seemed to have a higher frequency of
(15:22):
feral children. There was one named Shamdo in nineteen seventy two,
which is pretty recent right. He was about four years old.
He was found enforced in India playing with wolf cubs.
Apparently his skin was very dark. He had long hooked fingernails.
I don't know how much of this is true because
they also say as sharpened teeth, which feels a little
(15:44):
out there for me. But he had calluses on his palms, elbows,
and knees. Uh. He never talked. He learned sign language.
He also was eating raw meat. Uh. He was admitted
to Mother Teresa's Home for the destitute and died in
Lucknow was renamed Pascal All. He died in a lot
of times after being apprehended. At least in these stories.
(16:07):
Ferald children don't do well in society. Like you said,
I really appreciate you bringing up that fres Now, they
don't fit into either world completely. There in this what's
called a liminal space there on the border between the
world of humanity and the world of animals that raised them.
We also know that there's a what we call tantalizing
(16:30):
science about ferald children. There's not as much research on
them as there should be. While there are several confirmed cases,
there are a lot of speculative ones. And look, this
is kind of dark, ridiculous historians, but it needs to
be said. Sometimes when children appear to be feral, they
may have run away because they experienced severe abuse or trauma.
(16:52):
There was a girl in the Ukraine whose parents were
very very serious alcoholics. Her name was Oxana Malaya In
She was found living with dogs in a kennel. She
was eight years old. She had been living with the
dogs for six years because her parents left her outside
one night and she crawled in with the dogs. So
(17:16):
that's something that And just like we mentioned earlier with
the language acquisition window, she ran on all fours panted
with her tongue out, communicated like a dog. She only
knew the words yes and no, and she was luckily,
with intensive therapy able to learn some basic social verbal skills.
Now or at the last report, she lives in Odessa
(17:38):
and works with farm animals under the supervision of her caretakers.
So that is a happy ending. But we have to remember,
as easy as it is to romanticize this idea of
someone raised with animals and having this innate bond with them,
it can this kind of bond can occur because of
some very terrible things. Absolutely, absolutely, we don't know where
(18:01):
the boy who would go on to be called Dina,
what his story was, but surely, I mean, it sounds
like he spent enough time with these creatures and they
did not eat him, and he developed their traits that
he was relatively safe. I don't know. I keep beating
the drum for this whole let the kid live in
the forest line of thinking, and I'm probably gonna get
(18:23):
some people yelling at me about that, but I stand
by my position. I think it's good to have a position.
I could see the validity of the argument. You know,
it's it's weird because this is not a perfect comparison.
But back when I lived in Central America, there was
this huge epidemic of stray dogs in particular, and they
would run impacts, they had, you know, matted hair, they
(18:46):
had all the problems that you would have if you
were straight dogs. You didn't go to the vet, and
you were outdoors all the time. And I was talking
to another ex pat, and I asked them, you know,
what do you think about all these dogs? Should they
round them up? Do people adopt dogs the way they
do in the US? And all this other stuff? And
he said it used to really bother me, But look
(19:06):
at them. There's so much more free than they would
be in a kennel or something. And their lives are hard,
but there's still their lives. You know. I'm still I'm
still conflicted about that, you know what I mean? Because
are their lives that good? You know? How? First off,
how long would he have lived like this in the
woods if those hunters hadn't intervened, would have lived longer
(19:28):
than the wolves who would have ultimately been alone? Again,
that's very true, and I do see all that, so
it's hard to say. I don't know. Yeah, it's tough
to say which life is better. I guess that is
what I'm getting what I'm struggling with. Yeah, And I'm
right there with you, man, Although you know what I
think we we should mention. You mentioned Gazelle the gazelle kid.
So this gazelle child. The story comes from someone named
(19:50):
Jean Claude Augur, who is an anthropologist and was traveling
across the Spanish Sahara in nineteen sixty when he met
some nomads who told him that there was a wild
child living a day's journey away, so he followed their directions.
The next day he sees this naked kid galloping and
gigantic bounds, along with a quote long cavalcade of white gazelles.
(20:16):
The boy walked on all fours, sometimes assumed an upright gate,
but he twitched his muscle scalt in those ears like
the rest of the herd eight desert roots. He appeared
to be herbivorous, and his teeth were leveled like that
of a herbivore. But he lived this way for at
least another six years. People tried to catch him in
(20:38):
a net suspended by helicopter, but unlike so many other
feral children, according to this story, he was never removed
from his companions. Good. Yes, so he liked that story.
That's a happy ending, And he lived life as a gazelle.
But you know, I always, even from a young age,
I always thought the life of something like a gazelle
(21:00):
or a deer must be so oh rife with panic
and paranoia and just you know, death around every corner.
So you know what, maybe I take it back running
with the wolf pack might have been safer. Yeah, like
befriending some tigers, although that could Uh, you have to
work pretty hard to stay on their good side. Right,
(21:21):
very true. And just to clarify, there was more than
one gazelle boy. Uh. And there's also a rumor the
gazelle stories are interesting because there are rumors that the
entire thing was a hoax made by board reporters. I see.
(21:45):
So I don't know, because it sounds it sounds kind
of unusual, right, it really does. So what are some
what what are were there any examples that really stuck
out to you of children raised by animals? Yeah, there
were a few. But I do want to take an
opportunity to point something out, and it's more of me
pointing out that I'm kind of a dummy when it
comes to this. I did not realize that Gnoam Chomsky
(22:06):
was like this pre eminent linguists. He kind of like
wrote the paper that figured out about that window of
language acquisition that we were talking about earlier. Um. I
only knew him from his political um talks and his
you know, anti government rhetoric, but apparently early on in
his career he was this like incredible linguist. Generative grammar, yeah,
(22:30):
generative grammar. Yeah. Chompsky doesn't always get the the credit
he deserves, at least in nutfield, you know what I mean.
I feel like it's not something that was super out there,
but UM, it's fascinating if you look at his work
in that field, he did some really important stuff. So UM,
moving on to some of my favorite feral children. I
(22:52):
got one that stood out to me at least it
kind of and it sort of falls in line with
what you're talking about earlier, ban about how you'd want
to befriend some lions and definitely more like clean than
being a gazelle boy. We've got Leopard Boy UM, who
was supposedly taken in by a leopard s in nineteen twelve,
and UM lived with her for three years. Of course,
surprise surprise, managers the picture and kills the leopard Um
(23:15):
and found her offspring, one of which was was this
boy who was now five years old UM and he
they found his family and again this was in India,
and UM is very very similar to UH to the
wolf boy, where he was most comfortable running around on
all fours. Um. He had callouses to the point of
(23:39):
almost like paw pads on his hands and feet, and
he had a very tough hide just from you know,
can you imagine scampering through the woods and getting nicked
by tree branches and I'll call manner of rough edge,
you know, I mean, you would have to really develop
some thick skin literally right, crawling trees as well, right yep.
(23:59):
And he was a bye eater and a fighter as
you might have to be. And he would eat live
chickens from around the village straight up. Sea horse teeth,
my man, big time. You're bringing it back. I'm bringing
it back. I knew you would. One of us had
to if we did, in case, he would probably have
jumped in right before the end. But this story is
so sad. He actually apparently uh gradually lost his sight
(24:22):
due to cataracts, but that was just a coincidence to
do with his upbringing or his jungle days. So you know,
I put it to you would have been better off
hanging out with the leopard family in the jungle. I
see how a man hadn't swooped in and murdered his mother. Yeah,
it's a it's a philosophical question at this point. You know, now,
(24:42):
what were there any other ones that really stuck out
to you? I think we mentioned a chicken boy, we did,
we should follow, we should deliver on that. This particular
chicken boy came from Fiji, uh and he was dubbed
Sujeet Kumar, the Chicken Boy of Fiji, and was found
in nineteen seventy eight and is one of the sad ones,
like you had mentioned earlier, very very sad. In fact,
(25:03):
he had a very tragic, dysfunctional childhood. His parents as
punishment locked him in the chicken coop, and his mother
took her own life, and his father was killed, and
apparently his grandfather, who sounds like a terrible twisted man,
kept him in the chicken coop and was there for
(25:25):
eight years. He was found in the middle of the
road clucking and flapping his arms and and pecking. It
is this is this is dark, dude. I don't want
to end on this one. Well, it does have a
happy ending because he got out. Yeah, then he has
human assistance. And you know, according to everything that I found,
he's still living and he has cared for by the
(25:47):
woman who rescued him from the home a woman named
Elizabeth Clayton. So um, good good on her. That is
a dark one though. Wow. I'm just saying nowadays, were
I out in the wilderness and I saw a dirty
naked kid running around with any sort of animal, I
(26:07):
would feel responsible. I feel like I have to call
the authorities, yes, in case the kid had, you know,
been lost or separated from their parents. It's true, It's true. Man.
I don't know why I go nax to grind about this.
I think a lot of it has to do with
just man thinking he knows best. Now. But here's the thing.
I mean very ages about this, because if I walked
out and I saw somebody our age running around naked
(26:30):
with some wolves or whatever, I would just say, keep going, man,
more power to you, you know what I mean. They've
clearly made their choice. But let us know what you
think would would age matter if you saw somebody running
naked through the woods with some animals with the type
of animal matter you know, And we want to hear
your stories of any fair old children, whether you think
(26:53):
they're anecdotal or whether you think they are backed up
by evidence, because as we're looking through this, we found
a lot these were either I hate to say, sensationalized,
but maybe exaggerated in some cases sure you know, and
some cases that were some actual I'll call them con
jobs uh in Europe in days of yore. But we
(27:15):
as always want to hear from you. You can find
us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We especially like to recommend
our community page, Ridiculous Historians, which has really been cooking
with gas, really has um, so please join us over there.
We'd like to thank our super producer Casey pegram as
always for being uh straight seahorset teath our favorite new expression.
(27:37):
We gotta use it like once an episode. Now now now
we don't want to. We don't want to. We don't
want to. We don't want to burn out. I don't
want to wear it thin um. We'd like to thank
our buddy Alex Williams who composed our theme, our research
associates Christopher Eves and Gabe, and I would like to
thank you Nold, because I have been sneak eating Derrito's
this entire episode, trying not to be rude. I just
haven't eaten spoiler alert. Wasn't that sneaky ground? Oh? Could
(28:00):
you hear it? I can smell the dust well Hopefully
it doesn't translate to the to the podcast let us know.
Did you hear Ben sneak eating shame him? Did you
congratulate me? There you go. You always have to be
you know, it's better to be positive. Very true, Ben,
very true,
Yea. Now this is the law of the jungle, as
old and as true as the sky, and the wolf
that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that
(00:32):
shall break it must die. That is part of the
law of the jungle. Rudder kipling, Ben, you know what
I thought you were gonna do? What do you think
I was gonna thought you're gonna do? Now, this is
a story all about how my life got flipped it
upside there. Let me take a minute. Just sit right
back as on the bell air. I think you're nailed it.
I guess if we wanted to do parody lyrics would
(00:54):
be like now, this is a story all about how
my parents left me in the woods across town own.
I like to take a minute, just sit right there.
Tell you how I grew up with a cat and
a bear. You know what I mean? That's pulled up
to I don't know. This is your bag, Ben. You
did a good job. Yeah, Because we're talking about what
we're talking about sort of a slice of history, a
(01:17):
type thing that that encompasses a couple of different periods.
Um The at the base of our story today is
uh one particular feral child that was found in India
and likely served as the basis for one of your
favorite racist works of fiction. Ben is one of my
my favorite I'm doing favorite in quotation fingers here, Well
(01:40):
it is. The Jungle Book is an amazing story. It's
almost as amazing as our super producer Casey Pegram. But
you're right, No, the story of Dina Santa Char not
his real name. As far as we know. Our story
takes us to part of India called utter Pradesh, which
I may be mispronouncing. It's sort of like northern central
(02:04):
India on the border of Nepal And. In eighteen seventy two,
there was a group of hunters who encountered a pack
of wolves bounding through the forest. But not just any
ordinary pack of wolves, right, No, no, they say, what ho,
I've cited a man cub on all falls scamperings as
(02:27):
though he was a member of the pack. And then
they proceeded to smoke the wolf pack out of their cave,
kill the wolves, and bring this this man cub to
like a local orphanage, because you know, he clearly couldn't
possibly be happy living in the woods, free and naked
and with his animal brethren. I feel like you've got
(02:49):
a personal steak in this blood, right, You're right, I don't.
I just think, like, you know, I mean, it's so sad.
They literally there's different accounts of the story that they
killed all of the wolves, or that they at least
old the mother wolf and again smoked them out of
the cave. But you know, it's such so presumptuous to me.
It was he was he was like, what six years old?
I want to say, yeah, he was six. I guess,
(03:10):
I don't know. I guess they felt like they were
doing their their Christian duty. They probably did, but you know,
the wolves most likely attacked them because first off, they
set a fire and then they were actively intruding into
Like if unless a wolf is threatened or starving, it
doesn't care what you do. Human. Would these have been
white hunter has been or would these have been Hindi
(03:32):
like people from the region. Is this during colonialism or
is this a little bit before. This is during the
British raj. So so it's not clear if these were
white hunters or if these were local men, and not
that that really matters, but um, well we'll get to that. So,
so the boy is brought to town, to the village
and to a a mission run orphanage that's run by
(03:54):
a priest by the name of Father Earhart, who is
very much trying to convert the local population to his
type of his his way of thinking, right, which is
which is Catholicism. He's a missionary, right. And he says
he actually gives the kid his name. The kid doesn't
(04:15):
have a human name yet, and so he names him
Dina and Sonny Char and Sonny Char means Saturday. It's right,
which is the day of the week that he was
delivered to this guy, which I I think that checks out.
It's not a huge burst of creativity. But I also
think I also this is just a personal aesthetic nom
But I think it's really cool when people have names
(04:36):
their days of the week, like Wednesday Adams. I thought
that was great. Somebody's last name is Saturday. They just
feel kind of fun to me. And I like the
idea of his girl Friday, you know, yeah, And also
Mr Wednesday from American Gods, Yes, yes, Mr Wednesday. I
don't know any I don't think I know anyone named Tuesday.
If you're listening and you happen to be named Tuesday
(04:59):
or after any day though, after any day of the week.
We don't want to discriminate. Yeah, let's what happens next.
So what happens next is that father Earhart says some things.
We have a quotation from him that I think encapsulates
the condescending attitude so prevalent at the time. He says
that he thinks Santa char is undoubtedly what he called pagal,
(05:21):
meaning idiotic or slow. But he says, despite this, Santa
Chars still shows signs of reason and sometimes actual shrewdness.
But what we know now with the benefit of retrospect,
is that Santa Charg's behavior had a lot in common
with the behavior of other case similar cases of feral children. Yeah,
(05:46):
and that's the thing, the most important takeaway from this
and the interaction with some we'll talk about some others,
but they there's a window, very crucial window for language development,
and and uh, this child had soundly missed that window.
So it basically means that developing any kind of spoken
in language or being assimilated into speaking with you know,
(06:08):
the folks in the village was going to be noon impossible. Right,
That's that's the problematic part. You're absolutely correct about this,
not just this concept of language learning or language acquisition,
but also the concept of certain other behavior acquisitions. So
Santa Char allegedly would not express himself in ways that
(06:32):
seemed innately human. For instance, for a long time, we
as a species assumed that smiling or laughter were innate things,
sort of how like people, you say, all babies are
born knowing how to swim? You know what I mean?
I thought you were going to say swear all babies
are born knowing how to swear? And if if luke
(06:52):
who's talking, is any indication? Right? Right? Fantastic series of documentaries.
But the problem with Santa Char is that he did
not seem to laugh or smile, and he didn't seem
to bond with people. With one notable exception, he would
only bond with animals. There was a kid that he
(07:13):
bonded with, which was another feral child who came to
the same orphanage. By this time, Santa Char had learned
to wear human clothing. He could reportedly dress himself quote
with difficulty, and keep track of his cup and his plate.
But he showed this younger kid they would hang out,
(07:34):
and he showed him how to drink from a cup,
And apparently he also became quite the chain smoker. Yeah,
that was his Uh, that was his one big human
habit he picked up, right, what a what I one
to pick up? That's you know, it's it's heartbreaking when
you think about this because in other cases, or other
alleged cases, we should say, because we can get into
(07:56):
the the science of this a little bit later, in
many other cases where something like this is alleged to
have occurred, there's not a way to fix it. You
can mitigate some of the some of the issues, but
you can't repair them. These this this guy's Sanda char
(08:17):
was likely incapable of, you know, going on to become
a priest himself or make a ted talk. Here's my
question for you, Ben, this is why I had such
an extra grind at the top of the show with
these horrible, horrible men smoking out the lovely wolf and
family that had raised this young lad. I think I
know where you're going. Yeah, wouldn't he has been better
off frolicking in the forest, free and naked with the
(08:40):
wolf pack rather than the Sicondra mission orphanage. Yeah, it's
a good question. Stuck between two worlds, right, he can't
fully be human and he can't fully be an animal.
It's it's just, uh, it's really heartbreaking if you think
about it. Yeah, you know, and we have to ask ourselves,
what's the what is the ultimate um priorities? Equality of life?
(09:02):
Is it because our civilization is doing something that are
we conflating living the way we do with living the
correct way? You know what? I mean? That's right. I
think it's a I think there's an inherent judgment call
at play here. Is it about protecting the life of
the child? Um, I don't know. Obviously, a six year
(09:22):
old orphan running around with a bunch of wolves probably
isn't the most safe thing in the world. But um,
I'm not sure. Man, I'm of two minds of it.
It's clearly it's clearly causing me some conflict internally. There
are arguments on both sides. You know what, when you
see pictures of the guy, because there are actual photographs
of Dina Sano char which is why we can put
some more weight into this story in comparison to other
(09:46):
stories like Romulus and Remus raised by a wolf that's mythology,
there are any photographs of them. This this guy though,
when you look at the pictures, it's heartbreaking man. He's
clearly uncomfortable having to wear these clothes. He doesn't look
like he's super comfortable standing on two feet, stand on
(10:08):
two legs rather, and apparently he continued like he did,
learning from a plate like you said, but he continued
to prefer raw meat to anything else, and he would
still sniff it before eating it up until he passed away. Um,
I believe at a pretty early age. If I'm not
mistaken from what's thought to have been tuberculosis. Why don't
(10:31):
we talk a little bit more about some other famous
feral children throughout history, Ben, and kind of do a
little contrast and compare. Sure, Yeah, let's let's go with
let's see, do you wanna Why don't we start with
children who had also been quote unquote raised by other animals?
How does that sound? That does sound good to me? Ben?
(10:52):
All right, Well, we have that, we have that other
feral child that was found and brought to the same
mission orphanage. But then we have we have examples such
as um the Lobo wolf girl from eighteen forty five
to eighteen fifty two. In eighteen forty five, she was
seen running in Mexico on all fours with a pack
(11:14):
of wolves attacking a herd of goats. A year later,
she was seen with the wolves eating a goat. People
tried to capture her, She was captured, but she escaped.
And then she was seen in eighteen fifty two suckling
two wolf clubs, at which point she ran into the
woods and was never seen again. And I just want
to backtrack just lightly. Um, India in particular has a
(11:37):
history of producing these feral children. Um. In addition to
Santa chere there and his his buddy who was at
the orphanage. UM, over the years, there have been uh
several other cases including wolf children, panther children, dog children,
chicken children, and even gazelle children. So UM, this this
is kind of mythology that Rudyard Kipling would continue to
(12:01):
kind of inject into the minds of the West. Um,
there was some truth to it. Yeah, this is this
is where we get into a little bit of a
speculative thing. But I believe it's safe to speculate here.
Rudard Kipling was aware of the story of Dina, and
he then went on to write The Jungle Book with
(12:22):
a character of Mowgli. Now did we talk about we
we we we kind of alluded pretty harshly to Kipling's
imperialist leanings in his um kind of inherent not greatness. Um,
what was he trying to communicate with the story of
the man Cub beyond just the kind of lighthearted story
(12:43):
of a of a boy, you know, connected back to nature.
It's an interesting question. So this guy is most well
known for things like the Jungle Book, maybe that mongoose story. Uh,
the poem if, which is a wonderful poe him. But
he is also the author of a poem called the
(13:04):
white Man's Burden. And this was not a sarcastic comment
on his part or a sarcastic statement. When he is
writing the Jungle Book, he is writing in a context
of rampant othering and rationalization. So British forces at this
(13:26):
time are thinking, we the The implicit problem is you
cannot subjugate people an entire culture and then say, oh,
they are equal to us. We're just doing it because
we want resources and we're you know, we're no better
than robbers. You have to say that we are somehow better,
we're somehow more human for lack of a better state.
(13:49):
So the white Man's burden is that like the inherent
betterness of the white man and their mission to kind
of indoctrinate anyone that they see as being lesser. Yeah,
that's that's the idea. It's UM that they are somehow
ideologically freeing people who have existed thousands of years before
(14:11):
being backward or something right right, bringing them forward, awakening
to them to what they thought was the true religion,
which would be something like the aristocracy, Christianity, capitalism, kind
of all in its morass, in its own mix, uh,
and then over time making them a little less bad,
never white, never as good as the British, just a
(14:35):
little less bad, right. And this theme resonates in some
of the ideas of UM things that would would be
depicted in the US as well, the concept of the
noble the quote unquote noble savage you've heard that, you know,
like untouched by the fetters of true civilization, which is
(14:58):
kind of what Mowgli is meant to be. Mowgli is
kind of this innocent babe in the woods who has
this nobility, but of course, at the end of the
story pursues his destiny in the world of men because
it's inevitable, because that's what you're supposed to do. And
this leads us to some other stories. You had mentioned
that India had seemed to have a higher frequency of
(15:22):
feral children. There was one named Shamdo in nineteen seventy two,
which is pretty recent right. He was about four years old.
He was found enforced in India playing with wolf cubs.
Apparently his skin was very dark. He had long hooked fingernails.
I don't know how much of this is true because
they also say as sharpened teeth, which feels a little
(15:44):
out there for me. But he had calluses on his palms, elbows,
and knees. Uh. He never talked. He learned sign language.
He also was eating raw meat. Uh. He was admitted
to Mother Teresa's Home for the destitute and died in
Lucknow was renamed Pascal All. He died in a lot
of times after being apprehended. At least in these stories.
(16:07):
Ferald children don't do well in society. Like you said,
I really appreciate you bringing up that fres Now, they
don't fit into either world completely. There in this what's
called a liminal space there on the border between the
world of humanity and the world of animals that raised them.
We also know that there's a what we call tantalizing
(16:30):
science about ferald children. There's not as much research on
them as there should be. While there are several confirmed cases,
there are a lot of speculative ones. And look, this
is kind of dark, ridiculous historians, but it needs to
be said. Sometimes when children appear to be feral, they
may have run away because they experienced severe abuse or trauma.
(16:52):
There was a girl in the Ukraine whose parents were
very very serious alcoholics. Her name was Oxana Malaya In
She was found living with dogs in a kennel. She
was eight years old. She had been living with the
dogs for six years because her parents left her outside
one night and she crawled in with the dogs. So
(17:16):
that's something that And just like we mentioned earlier with
the language acquisition window, she ran on all fours panted
with her tongue out, communicated like a dog. She only
knew the words yes and no, and she was luckily,
with intensive therapy able to learn some basic social verbal skills.
Now or at the last report, she lives in Odessa
(17:38):
and works with farm animals under the supervision of her caretakers.
So that is a happy ending. But we have to remember,
as easy as it is to romanticize this idea of
someone raised with animals and having this innate bond with them,
it can this kind of bond can occur because of
some very terrible things. Absolutely, absolutely, we don't know where
(18:01):
the boy who would go on to be called Dina,
what his story was, but surely, I mean, it sounds
like he spent enough time with these creatures and they
did not eat him, and he developed their traits that
he was relatively safe. I don't know. I keep beating
the drum for this whole let the kid live in
the forest line of thinking, and I'm probably gonna get
(18:23):
some people yelling at me about that, but I stand
by my position. I think it's good to have a position.
I could see the validity of the argument. You know,
it's it's weird because this is not a perfect comparison.
But back when I lived in Central America, there was
this huge epidemic of stray dogs in particular, and they
would run impacts, they had, you know, matted hair, they
(18:46):
had all the problems that you would have if you
were straight dogs. You didn't go to the vet, and
you were outdoors all the time. And I was talking
to another ex pat, and I asked them, you know,
what do you think about all these dogs? Should they
round them up? Do people adopt dogs the way they
do in the US? And all this other stuff? And
he said it used to really bother me, But look
(19:06):
at them. There's so much more free than they would
be in a kennel or something. And their lives are hard,
but there's still their lives. You know. I'm still I'm
still conflicted about that, you know what I mean? Because
are their lives that good? You know? How? First off,
how long would he have lived like this in the
woods if those hunters hadn't intervened, would have lived longer
(19:28):
than the wolves who would have ultimately been alone? Again,
that's very true, and I do see all that, so
it's hard to say. I don't know. Yeah, it's tough
to say which life is better. I guess that is
what I'm getting what I'm struggling with. Yeah, And I'm
right there with you, man, Although you know what I
think we we should mention. You mentioned Gazelle the gazelle kid.
So this gazelle child. The story comes from someone named
(19:50):
Jean Claude Augur, who is an anthropologist and was traveling
across the Spanish Sahara in nineteen sixty when he met
some nomads who told him that there was a wild
child living a day's journey away, so he followed their directions.
The next day he sees this naked kid galloping and
gigantic bounds, along with a quote long cavalcade of white gazelles.
(20:16):
The boy walked on all fours, sometimes assumed an upright gate,
but he twitched his muscle scalt in those ears like
the rest of the herd eight desert roots. He appeared
to be herbivorous, and his teeth were leveled like that
of a herbivore. But he lived this way for at
least another six years. People tried to catch him in
(20:38):
a net suspended by helicopter, but unlike so many other
feral children, according to this story, he was never removed
from his companions. Good. Yes, so he liked that story.
That's a happy ending, And he lived life as a gazelle.
But you know, I always, even from a young age,
I always thought the life of something like a gazelle
(21:00):
or a deer must be so oh rife with panic
and paranoia and just you know, death around every corner.
So you know what, maybe I take it back running
with the wolf pack might have been safer. Yeah, like
befriending some tigers, although that could Uh, you have to
work pretty hard to stay on their good side. Right,
(21:21):
very true. And just to clarify, there was more than
one gazelle boy. Uh. And there's also a rumor the
gazelle stories are interesting because there are rumors that the
entire thing was a hoax made by board reporters. I see.
(21:45):
So I don't know, because it sounds it sounds kind
of unusual, right, it really does. So what are some
what what are were there any examples that really stuck
out to you of children raised by animals? Yeah, there
were a few. But I do want to take an
opportunity to point something out, and it's more of me
pointing out that I'm kind of a dummy when it
comes to this. I did not realize that Gnoam Chomsky
(22:06):
was like this pre eminent linguists. He kind of like
wrote the paper that figured out about that window of
language acquisition that we were talking about earlier. Um. I
only knew him from his political um talks and his
you know, anti government rhetoric, but apparently early on in
his career he was this like incredible linguist. Generative grammar, yeah,
(22:30):
generative grammar. Yeah. Chompsky doesn't always get the the credit
he deserves, at least in nutfield, you know what I mean.
I feel like it's not something that was super out there,
but UM, it's fascinating if you look at his work
in that field, he did some really important stuff. So UM,
moving on to some of my favorite feral children. I
(22:52):
got one that stood out to me at least it
kind of and it sort of falls in line with
what you're talking about earlier, ban about how you'd want
to befriend some lions and definitely more like clean than
being a gazelle boy. We've got Leopard Boy UM, who
was supposedly taken in by a leopard s in nineteen twelve,
and UM lived with her for three years. Of course,
surprise surprise, managers the picture and kills the leopard Um
(23:15):
and found her offspring, one of which was was this
boy who was now five years old UM and he
they found his family and again this was in India,
and UM is very very similar to UH to the
wolf boy, where he was most comfortable running around on
all fours. Um. He had callouses to the point of
(23:39):
almost like paw pads on his hands and feet, and
he had a very tough hide just from you know,
can you imagine scampering through the woods and getting nicked
by tree branches and I'll call manner of rough edge,
you know, I mean, you would have to really develop
some thick skin literally right, crawling trees as well, right yep.
(23:59):
And he was a bye eater and a fighter as
you might have to be. And he would eat live
chickens from around the village straight up. Sea horse teeth,
my man, big time. You're bringing it back. I'm bringing
it back. I knew you would. One of us had
to if we did, in case, he would probably have
jumped in right before the end. But this story is
so sad. He actually apparently uh gradually lost his sight
(24:22):
due to cataracts, but that was just a coincidence to
do with his upbringing or his jungle days. So you know,
I put it to you would have been better off
hanging out with the leopard family in the jungle. I
see how a man hadn't swooped in and murdered his mother. Yeah,
it's a it's a philosophical question at this point. You know, now,
(24:42):
what were there any other ones that really stuck out
to you? I think we mentioned a chicken boy, we did,
we should follow, we should deliver on that. This particular
chicken boy came from Fiji, uh and he was dubbed
Sujeet Kumar, the Chicken Boy of Fiji, and was found
in nineteen seventy eight and is one of the sad ones,
like you had mentioned earlier, very very sad. In fact,
(25:03):
he had a very tragic, dysfunctional childhood. His parents as
punishment locked him in the chicken coop, and his mother
took her own life, and his father was killed, and
apparently his grandfather, who sounds like a terrible twisted man,
kept him in the chicken coop and was there for
(25:25):
eight years. He was found in the middle of the
road clucking and flapping his arms and and pecking. It
is this is this is dark, dude. I don't want
to end on this one. Well, it does have a
happy ending because he got out. Yeah, then he has
human assistance. And you know, according to everything that I found,
he's still living and he has cared for by the
(25:47):
woman who rescued him from the home a woman named
Elizabeth Clayton. So um, good good on her. That is
a dark one though. Wow. I'm just saying nowadays, were
I out in the wilderness and I saw a dirty
naked kid running around with any sort of animal, I
(26:07):
would feel responsible. I feel like I have to call
the authorities, yes, in case the kid had, you know,
been lost or separated from their parents. It's true, It's true. Man.
I don't know why I go nax to grind about this.
I think a lot of it has to do with
just man thinking he knows best. Now. But here's the thing.
I mean very ages about this, because if I walked
out and I saw somebody our age running around naked
(26:30):
with some wolves or whatever, I would just say, keep going, man,
more power to you, you know what I mean. They've
clearly made their choice. But let us know what you
think would would age matter if you saw somebody running
naked through the woods with some animals with the type
of animal matter you know, And we want to hear
your stories of any fair old children, whether you think
(26:53):
they're anecdotal or whether you think they are backed up
by evidence, because as we're looking through this, we found
a lot these were either I hate to say, sensationalized,
but maybe exaggerated in some cases sure you know, and
some cases that were some actual I'll call them con
jobs uh in Europe in days of yore. But we
(27:15):
as always want to hear from you. You can find
us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We especially like to recommend
our community page, Ridiculous Historians, which has really been cooking
with gas, really has um, so please join us over there.
We'd like to thank our super producer Casey pegram as
always for being uh straight seahorset teath our favorite new expression.
(27:37):
We gotta use it like once an episode. Now now now
we don't want to. We don't want to. We don't
want to. We don't want to burn out. I don't
want to wear it thin um. We'd like to thank
our buddy Alex Williams who composed our theme, our research
associates Christopher Eves and Gabe, and I would like to
thank you Nold, because I have been sneak eating Derrito's
this entire episode, trying not to be rude. I just
haven't eaten spoiler alert. Wasn't that sneaky ground? Oh? Could
(28:00):
you hear it? I can smell the dust well Hopefully
it doesn't translate to the to the podcast let us know.
Did you hear Ben sneak eating shame him? Did you
congratulate me? There you go. You always have to be
you know, it's better to be positive. Very true, Ben,
very true,
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