June 6, 2019 • 33 mins
After the War of 1812, the US decided to shore up security at Lake Champlain by constructing a fort on Island Point. However, due to a surveying error, the US ended up building this fort in Canada, rather than the states. Listen in to learn more about the ridiculous story of Fort Montgomery, and why some people prefer to call it Fort Blunder.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Uh, this episode is
about a hilarious mistake, a goof a doof a whoopsie blunder.
My name is Ben? A blender, a blending of blunders? Perhaps, yeah,
a blending of blunder. Is that on first blush seems
(00:48):
a little unremarkable, But no, sir, no sir, it was
not unremarkable because it has to do with borders. We've
been doing a little border theme lately. We had that
war between what was it, Ohio and they had that
no man's land where no man knew who it belonged
to because of a poor mapping and just pource what
speculation right or um? Cartography? Cartography? That's the word, Ben.
(01:12):
Such is the case in today's episode where the US
accidentally built a military based on the wrong side of
the US Canada border spoiler alert. But there's more to
it than that, isn't there? So in eighteen sixteen, Um,
it became a big deal that we protect our border
with Canada. Why you might ask, why is that? I'll
(01:34):
tell you why, Ben, You think we think of Canada
as our mellow You know stoner neighbors to the north. Yeah,
it's like it's uh. One time, I don't completely agree
with this. One time friend of mine referred to Canada
as diet America and I said, why's that and they said, well,
it's a little better for you, and I was like,
you know nothing about the diet soda game man analogy. Oh,
(01:58):
we should give a shout out to our guest super
producer Paul Mission Controlled Decant. He's like our Canada. He
actually he and he is Canada. He and super producer
Casey Begraam are very good friends outside of the show.
The American version of Casey It's funny Casey Uh. He
(02:21):
has his second life in Paris, France as La Bouche,
but occasionally he carries on a third life as a
logger in French. Canada also goes by the moniker La Bouche.
Where's a slightly different outfit, much more of a plaid
flannel lumberjack flannel situation. Um and yeah, and he's he
has an unstoppable force in the logging industry and it
(02:42):
all ties into his Parisian criminal empire, which which we
should save for its own episode. I think we should
because boundaries are important exactly. Speaking of boundaries, so we're
talking about Canada, we think of them as as our friends,
which they are. But at the time, I mean, there's
still what what would you call them van a territory
(03:02):
of the United Kingdom, Like, how how are they connected
to the United Kingdom. Well, the thing is that the
British use Canadian land as a taking off point for invasions.
So during both the American Revolutionary War and again in
the War of eighteen twelve, British forces launch invasions down
(03:23):
Lake Champlain with hopes of cutting America in two and
so the Madison administration says, this is a weak point,
this cannot be happening. We have to do something her
um for um, for um, something must be done. We
need a sick fortress, we need a dope a f fortress.
That's the best solution. So they construct a modern, heavy
(03:48):
fort modern for that day, on the New York shore
of Lake Champlain, and they named the place Fort Montgomery,
in honor of General Richard Montgomery, hero of the Revolutionary War.
And this dude named Joseph Totten, who later became the
chief engineer of the U. S Army of the whole army.
This guy meant business. He oversaw the construction and it
(04:10):
was a thirty foot tall structure. It was made out
of the same vermont Um limestone that later was used
to construct Radio City Music Hall in the Brooklyn Bridge. Uh,
and they built this thing up. It was gonna have
a cannon ports and any ship that was passing by
on the British side was going to be given What
(04:32):
for sounds great on paper, here's the problem. This was
an embarrassment on multiple levels. And we'll get to the
big one in a sect. But just the building itself,
it was, as you said, eight sided, thirty ft high,
but it was built on a weak, unstable foundation that
was mainly composed of debris bought from ruins of the
(04:54):
Plattsburgh batteries and outworks. So literally the foundations of this
thing a week. It can't hold, and uh, it doesn't
matter if it does hold, because they figured out what
was wrong pretty quickly. Yeah, at the most embarrassing time possible,
because Madison actually showed up to get a glance, to
(05:18):
get a gander at the progress that his you know
that he had he had proposed this fort and that
is when they realized that they had actually built the
thing on the Canada side. Let's get a tire screech. Perfect. Yeah,
you see, under the seventy three Treaty of Paris, the
border between New York and Quebec was the parallel. But
(05:41):
the previous understanding of the location of that line of
latitude was incorrect, a fact that surveyors did not discover
until eighteen eighteen. At this point, the US has already
spent two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars construction. That
is not chump change of the time. That a serious, big,
(06:05):
imaginary military money. Yeah, let's let's in fleation. Calculate this
real quick. Here we go. Two hundred and seventy five
thousand dollars in eighteen eighteen is now worth approximately five million,
five hundred thirty three thousand, five hundred nineteen dollars and
(06:28):
sixty cents. Okay, so maybe not like Avatar money, but
you know, five million dollars five structure, that's a lot.
That's a lot firs stone instructure. It's true. There wasn't
even any like moving parts. There wasn't even any technology.
Probably windows, windows, door hinges, the original moving parts. Yes,
(06:49):
so this is This is a tremendous embarrassment, right. Uh,
what what do they do when they figure out that
this fort designed to protect the US from Canada is
you know, in Canada. Yeah. And it wasn't until eighteen
forty two that this discrepancy about the borderline was resolved.
There's something called the Webster Ashburton Treaty that provided the
(07:10):
understanding that the original border was going to hold. The
old line, um was that was surveyed by Valentine and
Collins in seventeen seventy four. That was known as the
forty five degree of north latitude and then became known
as the actual divide between New York and Vermont on
one side and the British province of Canada on the other.
(07:33):
And from this is a quote actually from a neat
Arama article, And from said point of intersection west along
the said divide lies as heretofore known and understood to
the Iroquois as or Sir Lawrence River. You know, this
is back in the day when if you wanted stuff
to sound totally profound, you added said you just peppered
in said. At some point, you know, our said guest
(07:57):
producer Paul Decan is agree here. So it's it's interesting
because they tried to resolve the issue. But while they
were resolving this, we have to remember this fort had
been abandoned decades. Locals are looting the construction site because
the work stopped, you know, and uh, Fort Montgomery, by
the time two comes around, is widely known as Fort Blunder.
(08:21):
But to to your point, after this Webster Ashburton Treaty,
that's the one right, they resumed construction in eighteen four
and Fort Blunder actually get some get some play. It's
a it's a working base. No, I'm just saying actually,
(08:43):
like I'm surprised. Look, it's a living language. I'll speak
I want as well you should. Then I will ask
questions as I want. Do you Are you one of
those people who's intimidated by the use of the word
actually or is it? For me? It's when it's at
the beginning of a sentence, it always so why are
you doing this? Yeah, it's sort of to me it's
a license to tune out whatever the person is about
(09:05):
to say after that. So I actually appreciate it because
it's kind of a context clue where you know, whatever's
gonna follow is going to be pretentious and unhelpful, like
that old Dmitri Martin observation when he says, I love
bumper stickers. Such a convenient way of saying, let's never
talk agreed. Oh I I like bumper stickers. They're just
not for me. You're not for me either. No, No,
(09:27):
I have a virgin car. This is straight. You can
see photos of Fort Blunder Fort Montgomery Excuses. If you
want to check out some close up pictures, visit historic
Lakes dot org, where you can see you can see
(09:48):
the lay of the land, you can see the old
map where they miscalculated everything. You can even see a
sketch about blunder Um, which depicts the the structure we
talked about earlier. I don't know if we talked about
some of the features of the fort outside of the
gun turrets or whatever, the little windows um, but it
(10:09):
did at one point stand ford eight feet high. The
western facing wall was known as the Gorge, and that
was adjacent to a giant called that's something called a
cover face or an earthen bank, and that was created
as a defensive aid for land attacks, and then it
had a moat. I didn't realize that I mean, it's
very much like old school kind of castle type features. Right.
(10:29):
It had a moat which was referred to as a
wet ditch, which was filled with lake water. These days
it is not it is not looking so hot. It
is quite worse for wear because a lot of local
you know, kids and ruffians and biker gangs, you know,
have just tagged it all up. It is actually for
sale if you're in the market. Um. In the nine twenties,
(10:52):
the US sold Fort Montgomery at an auction, and then
in nineteen eighty three Victor Pod, who was a shipping
magnate from mont Real, that's when he bought it, uh,
and he offered part of the property to New York
State as a historic preservation site, but New York did
not want it. Then Pod died in ninety nine and
his sons inherited the fort and tried to sell it
(11:15):
on eBay and actually got one valid bid for five
million bucks, but it fell through. Still for sale, I
believe the current asking price is around a million bucks.
That's a lot of depreciation, really is some five point
five three whatever, just sixty nine. That's worse than like
dealership depreciation when you drive the car off the lot,
(11:36):
you know, one million, not even a million. Ah, yes,
So from five point five million dollars and sixty nine
sins to just under a million dollars, that's boat level depreciation.
And you know, hopefully a lesson learned. There's a great
Atlas Obscure article about the current situation, and Fort Montgomery
(12:02):
is encountering, which just says for sale and abandoned decay
fort on a private island. It says decaying. Huh, and
it is. You can see some great pictures. It's overgrown,
there's graffiti all over it. There probably you know, syringes.
You know, they would have gone in there and guss
eat it up a little bit like they did for
real estate photos. You know, they're really not trying to
upsell this thing, are they been? No, No, they're not
(12:24):
really because the problem here is one of infrastructure, right,
and it's still on the National Register of Historic Places.
But every okay, everybody knows that it needs to be saved,
but nobody's willing to uh pony up the scratch and cheddar,
the itchy cheddar to uh to support it. For instance,
(12:47):
the Preservation League of New York State included this fort
on its seven to Save list in two thousand and nine,
a roundup of at risk historic sites that need help,
and according to Katie Peace, the communications director of the
Preservation League of New York State, there are no current
plans to rehabilitate the site. Uh it joins the ranks
(13:10):
of other historical places and objects of significance, like the
gunboat Spitfire, which was part of the American fleet that
contributed to the Saratoga Victory in seventeen seventies seven, or
the John van Houston House, which looks worse for wear,
but is a early eighteenth century example of Dutch settlement
(13:31):
along the Hudson, the plum Bronson House, which is also
just rapidly deteriorating, and the Magdalen Island, which has an
ancient past as a stopping place for Native American populations
or First Nations and Europeans who came later, the historic
South Street Seaport, the Burden Iron Works Museum. Those are
(13:54):
the seven, but there are many, many more, And when
you look around, whether it's in the US or in
other countries, I'm sure there's no shortage of decaying pieces
of history that should be preserved. Like have you ever
driven through Tennessee. Yeah, a little bit, but not not
not not a ton. Give me the scoop Tennessee is uh.
(14:15):
There must be some government program. I can say this
because I have family there. There must be some government
program to make sure that everybody has at least one
to two decaying barns in their fields. And you can
even see them when you just drive on the interstate.
But I'm always baffled by that, you know what I mean,
because these barns are in use, but they're ready for
(14:36):
one match to make them. That's very similar to driving
into some of the rural roads in UH in Georgia,
like between Atlanta and Athens, for example, or Augusta and Athens.
Lots of big open fields with just a single ramshackled
barn in the middle UH. And it looks like it's
leaning kind of at a canted angle, like it could
fall down with just a light breath of wind. Wire
(14:58):
grass country, especially if you drive. This is an example
for people who don't know how big this state is,
especially driving from Atlanta to Savannah down on Georgia's small
Atlantic coast. Have you made that drive? I have. It's
been a minute them that's a long one. It's a
long one, and it's not a particularly exciting one for
(15:19):
some people. But it's what how long is it? It's
ours from here to Savannah? From Atlanta, I believe it's
about six hours. Six hours, Yeah, six long hours, full
of full of history, and full of things that look
the worse for where you know. It reminds me whenever
(15:42):
I travel somewhere, whether for work or weather for personal reasons,
I always try to find a local museum or an
historic site. In Texas, recently, super producer Paul Michigan Control
Decan and I visited the Alum. Oh and hey, check
this out, man, I got something for you. Ben is
(16:04):
now rummaging through his bag of tricks. Um, okay, here
you go. I couldn't bring you the actual Alumo, but
I found that found a little thing. It's a pamphlet.
It's a handbill for the Alamo. Yeah, it absolutely is. Ben,
give me the rundown of the Alumo as I so.
(16:26):
So the thing that I think startled both Paul and myself.
It was And Paul, tell me if I get this wrong,
is that when we went to the actual Alumo uh
and and went inside, it's free to attend by the way.
Everything was under restoration or construction work, and there were
there were entire pieces of the building that needed to
(16:48):
be saved right uh, that were off limits, and we
we didn't get to do a lot of the fun stuff.
There's a re enactor who will built you in a
card game. We missed that. It was early in the morning.
But I'm a huge I'm a huge fan of that stuff,
and I hope that I hope that we can as
(17:08):
a species do our best to preserve the physical traces
of those who came before us, whether that is a
military fort, a vessel of note. Um, I don't know.
I see are there's a pretty big footprint for the
gift shop here, Ben. Was it spectacular? Was it an
above average gift shop? It was? You know it was?
It was. It was interesting. It was interesting. I I
(17:33):
did not personally pick up any gifts. I was there.
I was there for this story. But they have all
you know, Texas branded stuff, shot glasses, ashtrays, replica guns. Now, No,
not this time. If if they were giving out actual
pieces of the ALUMO might probably pick one up, but
that would maybe defeat their purposes. But you know what,
(17:55):
my friend, if ever I find myself on Fort Montgomery
or Fort Blunder. I will pick up some pieces of
history for us. Well, that's what we do here on
Ridiculous History band wee. We pick up the pieces of history.
We put them back together like a veritable Rubik's cube.
And this ends our episode. But not it's time, gentleman,
(18:28):
Jonathan Strickland a k. The quister Jon Strickland Quition. It's
gonna be back. Guys. You've got a lot of nerve
my friends. I sure do. Just in general, let's let's
just let's just let's just establish this just for a
moment though. Gentlemen, you're in my playground now because they're
not in your normal studio. You're in my studio. That's true,
(18:52):
that's true. We are we so we have a number
of studios here at h Q, and Jonathan, this is
uh of the studios where you spend a lot of
time recording. Uh let's see tech stuff. That's that's right. Yes,
in your studio, I record the brink, But in my
studio I record tex stuff. Yes. And uh, you know,
(19:12):
I gotta say I love what you've done with the place. Thanks,
thanks you you're enjoying my butt groove right now, you're
in my chair. I'm in your chair. That's the chair
I sit in. Oh that's right, Yeah, I didn't think that.
Are we cool? Do you want to switch chairs? I'm
fine with that. If we switch chairs, then you can
see whether or not the thing I'm about to tell you,
if it's true or false. That's You're just I'll just
stay here. You're here for a reason. And the most
(19:35):
cringe worthy segment in all the podcasting where I present
a scenario to the two hosts of Ridiculous History and
they determine whether or not I made it up or
if it's a real one. And I understand we were
talking about things about boarders and mistakes, about placing things
(19:57):
places where you may not actually own them, so this
is a somewhat related to that. But on the other
side of the United States of America, the southern side.
Have you ever wondered why Florida has a panhandle that
seems to cut off the bottom of the state of
(20:19):
Alabama all the time, constantly keeps up. We'll have a
scenario for you. You will have three minutes to decide
whether or not in fact it's true or false. And
of course we always have an arbitrary rule, and I
didn't come up with one beforehand. So if you're going
to ask me a question, before you can ask you, you
you have to yell spring break rules and then you
(20:40):
can ask a question. Deal because it has to do
with Florida and Alabama. All right, here we go. It's
because of a really bad map and some quote unquote surveyors.
After winning or purchasing territories from England, Spain, and France,
the American government got down to the business of establishing
(21:03):
states in the early eighteen hundreds. Originally, the Colony of
Georgia stretched much further to the west, but it was
decided that part of that land would be created into
the state of Alabama. The Chattahoochee River would serve as
a border month much of the state line and would
(21:23):
go all the way south, and a team of cartographers
determined that the Gulf Coast of what would have been
Alabama fell on the thirty one degree latitude line. Here's
the problem. The actual latitude line for the Gulf Coast
is thirty degrees, which meant that the map actually ended
(21:47):
much further north than the Gulf coast. But that's how
it was written down, and because that's how it was
written down in official documents, that's where the end of
Alabama would be. And because of that error, Alabama does
not have a Gulf coast that stretches across its entire
width instead of just has Mobile Bay begin Yes, Mr Brown, well,
(22:13):
I've got a run to the timer. It's in the
other studio. Hang on here, we're good, all right, we'll
just take about five seconds off that. All right? But yes,
is this is there anything to do with the band
Florida Georgia line. It certainly has not, as far as
they know, and thank the heavens, has nothing to do
(22:34):
with that band rules Yes, Mr boh so quister, what
you said it was the thirty a matter of confusing
THET and the thirty first. Yes, latitude, yes, okay uh?
And what year did this happen? It would have been
(22:56):
the early eight hundreds. It's before Alabama was officially declared
a state, which was I think I have this written down.
It's eighty. Hey, you're you're eating our time. I know.
I'm sorry. I have the facts written down, but I
didn't have it. Listen, I'm really much stronger in English
history than American history. Yes, but it was in the
(23:18):
early eighteen It was before before Alabama was made a state,
and certainly much before Florida Florida. I know it was
eighteen forty five, which was much later. Okay, Uh, you
got anything else? I feel like I feel like this
is true. I think it's probably true as well. Ben,
we'll lock it in. Let's lock it three to one.
(23:40):
Hellack true. It's so not true. It's it's like winning
doesn't even mean anything anymore. It's you're making me face
an existential crisis here, gentlemen, did you ever consider that
Maybe that's exactly our to keep playing the game anyway.
(24:02):
All well, let me tell you exactly what did happen though,
just to give you the real story, because it's actually
fascinating why there's a panhandle. So we have to keep
in mind there were four major players involved. We have England,
we have France, we have Spain. We have America. Now,
before the American Revolution, you had England with the colonies
(24:22):
that would become the United States of America. You had
Spain that owned uh, Florida, and that went as far
it could have gone as far west as the Mississippi.
You had France that owned the Louisiana Territory that was
much of the midwest and the south of what would
become the United States of America. Now, France and Spain
(24:43):
were sort of in disagreement of where that border was
along the southern edge the Gulf Coast, and they eventually
decided that Perdido River was the unofficial border, which is
between Mobile Bay and Pensacola, Florida. And so they decided
that was the boy. But then a whole bunch of
different stuff happened. England won the Seven Years War. They
(25:06):
took over Florida from Spain. Then Spain gave the Louisiana
territory to or France gave the Louisiana Tory tory territory
to Spain. This is what happens when I do the
Renaissance Festival three days in a row. I can't talk
straight anymore. So Spain now has the Louisiana territory. England
now has Florida. England extends the Florida border all the
(25:27):
way out to the Mississippi. So now the Florida's panhandle
reaches much further to the west. Right all, right, Then
America is revolting. You could argue frequently throughout its history,
but it ends up winning the Revolutionary War. England loses,
Florida goes back to Spain. So now Spain owns Florida,
(25:47):
but now the border goes all the way to the Mississippi.
Spain gives the Louisiana territory back to France, which then
turns around and sells it to the Americans. This would
be really helpful with a white board. Well, here's or
a lot of red string. So so here's what the
Americans do. They say, well, we're buying the Louisiana territory,
but what we're going to do is we're going to
(26:08):
refer to Louisiana tory tory back when this map was
drawn where the Perdido River was the border. So they
essentially tell Spain, oh, no, we bought the Louisiana territory
from like three times before. Spain said uh no, And
then America sent a bunch of troops down to the
Gulf coast and Spain said all right, fine, And then
(26:32):
a few years later Spain ends up surrendering Florida to
the United States. And that is why Florida has a
panhandle and Alabama has a very limited Gulf coast. Well said,
Well said, you know, I've always It's fascinating because I
think where I got I got tripped up is as
soon as you were talking about the original size of
(26:53):
the colony of Georgia. I know part of that is true,
that's true, but I probably should have listened better. The
first part, that's true. The rest of it's gonna be right.
I should probably not treat these very important questions the
way I treat group emails to every or any conversation
with me. Honestly, that's not true. No, I listened pretty
(27:17):
pretty in depth. You know, I'm calling I have my
finger on the pulse of the Jonathan Strickland aspect of
your life. By the way, congratulations on wrapping up the
Renaissance Festival. Thank you, thank you. I I think it
added about five years to the age that I already am,
or perhaps you could say subtracted them from the end
(27:37):
of my life. Either. It gets you right around the
age you were supposed to be for your character, though,
because that's what the right around the age was when
he died. Yes, Well takes some takes some vitamins. Uh,
Look you I have unfortunate news you can't die yet, Nolan,
I and all our friends listening at home need to
(28:00):
at least get a little bit out of the hole, right, Yes,
I don't even know how any ahead now, all right,
but that's fine, it's fine, it's fine. I was actually
going to give you the true one originally, and then
I thought, well, this one's is so convoluted, but it's
obviously true. Yeah, And we've been we've been exploring and
(28:20):
all I think you said this at the top. We've
been exploring a lot of stuff about boundaries and borders recently.
So this this was an excellent question, and you know,
one of these days we're going to get one right. Well.
It's also it also really illustrates how how this is
a sticky, sticky situation, even when you're looking at borders
(28:42):
between two areas in the same country. There's there's other
stories about states that have had border disputes that had
to be settled by Congress when they were actually establishing
the states. Yeah, like the Ohio and Michigan exactly, Like
like Hio, Michigan and that that little thin sliver who
(29:03):
owns that yes, yes, who owns Toledo. So thank you
so much for coming on the show, Jonathan without giving spoilers,
because you've got a lot of irons in the fire
right now, Where can people visit to learn more about you,
your work and your shows. Not certainly. You can go
to tech stuff podcast dot com to look at the
(29:26):
more than one thousand episodes of tech stuff recorded over
the last eleven years. Is that recent one thousand? It's
one tho I'm almost up to now, okay, because I remember,
yes that I I hit a thousand last year. That's right,
actually because two years ago. But yes, it's a uh.
We've been doing a lot of interesting work, especially around
(29:49):
artificial intelligence and ethics and things of that nature. Not
very historically oriented, but I would recommend if you have
any interest in the ethics of technology. Yeah, there's been
quite a few episodes about that recently, fantastic and I
ignore all of that when I come on here. Great, great,
keep keep your characters like that off offspring song right
(30:12):
comes up a rate exactly, but hey, hey, don't pay
no mind. As we were saying earlier, this is the
end of the episode but not the show, and the
conversation continues. We want to hear your thoughts. You can
find us all on Instagram, Facebook, and uh not Twitch,
that's that's the thing you did. But Twitter, which is
a different thing that sounds similar. Twitter is my new
(30:34):
platform that I'm starting. I like Twitter paint. It's sort
of a Twitch Twitter hybrid exactly that. Yes, I think
I have a physical tick that will make me an
ideal influencer on Twitter. You can get it on the
ground floor. Excellent. I like Thither, it's the startup I have.
Uh that's it overlays your favorite GPS devices and gives
(30:56):
you driving instructions in old English. So it's it's a
great Frank gift for your friends. Oh you was supposed
to go Thither, but you turned you on a pox
on your house. So you can find out more about
our our brilliant world changing startups on our Facebook page,
(31:16):
Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet our favorite part of
the show, your fellow listeners. You can also follow our
individual uh misadventures and Shenanigan re on Instagram. I'm at
Ben Bolan, I am at how Now, Noel Brown, I'm
at John Strickland with her without an got it. He
(31:38):
used to be at no H but it's weird, just exactly.
No one knew, what the what the l what's going on? Oh? Okay, yeah, yeah, no,
I'm with you. It's it's been a long day. Big
thanks to our guest super producer Paul Mission Controlled deck It,
(32:00):
who has been chilling with us all afternoon and it
is probably uh what do you think? No, I think
he's tired of this yet. You know, he looks okay,
it doesn't like too cranky. He's got a little wry
smile on his face. I think it always looks great.
I think it was tired of you before you came
in here. Actually, if he has been working with you
guys for a really long time, right right, Well, thank
you either way, Paul. Also thank you to super producer
(32:21):
Casey La Bush Pegram wherever he may roam. Big thanks
to Alex Williams who can post our theme. And thanks
to a friend of the show, Christopher Hasiotis Thinks as
always to Jonathan Strickland, a k a. The Whister, Thanks
to our research associate Gabe and Hey No, thanks to
you man, safe travels and to you as well. We'll
(32:42):
see you next time, folks. M For more podcasts from
(33:06):
My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple
Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Uh, this episode is
about a hilarious mistake, a goof a doof a whoopsie blunder.
My name is Ben? A blender, a blending of blunders? Perhaps, yeah,
a blending of blunder. Is that on first blush seems
(00:48):
a little unremarkable, But no, sir, no sir, it was
not unremarkable because it has to do with borders. We've
been doing a little border theme lately. We had that
war between what was it, Ohio and they had that
no man's land where no man knew who it belonged
to because of a poor mapping and just pource what
speculation right or um? Cartography? Cartography? That's the word, Ben.
(01:12):
Such is the case in today's episode where the US
accidentally built a military based on the wrong side of
the US Canada border spoiler alert. But there's more to
it than that, isn't there? So in eighteen sixteen, Um,
it became a big deal that we protect our border
with Canada. Why you might ask, why is that? I'll
(01:34):
tell you why, Ben, You think we think of Canada
as our mellow You know stoner neighbors to the north. Yeah,
it's like it's uh. One time, I don't completely agree
with this. One time friend of mine referred to Canada
as diet America and I said, why's that and they said, well,
it's a little better for you, and I was like,
you know nothing about the diet soda game man analogy. Oh,
(01:58):
we should give a shout out to our guest super
producer Paul Mission Controlled Decant. He's like our Canada. He
actually he and he is Canada. He and super producer
Casey Begraam are very good friends outside of the show.
The American version of Casey It's funny Casey Uh. He
(02:21):
has his second life in Paris, France as La Bouche,
but occasionally he carries on a third life as a
logger in French. Canada also goes by the moniker La Bouche.
Where's a slightly different outfit, much more of a plaid
flannel lumberjack flannel situation. Um and yeah, and he's he
has an unstoppable force in the logging industry and it
(02:42):
all ties into his Parisian criminal empire, which which we
should save for its own episode. I think we should
because boundaries are important exactly. Speaking of boundaries, so we're
talking about Canada, we think of them as as our friends,
which they are. But at the time, I mean, there's
still what what would you call them van a territory
(03:02):
of the United Kingdom, Like, how how are they connected
to the United Kingdom. Well, the thing is that the
British use Canadian land as a taking off point for invasions.
So during both the American Revolutionary War and again in
the War of eighteen twelve, British forces launch invasions down
(03:23):
Lake Champlain with hopes of cutting America in two and
so the Madison administration says, this is a weak point,
this cannot be happening. We have to do something her
um for um, for um, something must be done. We
need a sick fortress, we need a dope a f fortress.
That's the best solution. So they construct a modern, heavy
(03:48):
fort modern for that day, on the New York shore
of Lake Champlain, and they named the place Fort Montgomery,
in honor of General Richard Montgomery, hero of the Revolutionary War.
And this dude named Joseph Totten, who later became the
chief engineer of the U. S Army of the whole army.
This guy meant business. He oversaw the construction and it
(04:10):
was a thirty foot tall structure. It was made out
of the same vermont Um limestone that later was used
to construct Radio City Music Hall in the Brooklyn Bridge. Uh,
and they built this thing up. It was gonna have
a cannon ports and any ship that was passing by
on the British side was going to be given What
(04:32):
for sounds great on paper, here's the problem. This was
an embarrassment on multiple levels. And we'll get to the
big one in a sect. But just the building itself,
it was, as you said, eight sided, thirty ft high,
but it was built on a weak, unstable foundation that
was mainly composed of debris bought from ruins of the
(04:54):
Plattsburgh batteries and outworks. So literally the foundations of this
thing a week. It can't hold, and uh, it doesn't
matter if it does hold, because they figured out what
was wrong pretty quickly. Yeah, at the most embarrassing time possible,
because Madison actually showed up to get a glance, to
(05:18):
get a gander at the progress that his you know
that he had he had proposed this fort and that
is when they realized that they had actually built the
thing on the Canada side. Let's get a tire screech. Perfect. Yeah,
you see, under the seventy three Treaty of Paris, the
border between New York and Quebec was the parallel. But
(05:41):
the previous understanding of the location of that line of
latitude was incorrect, a fact that surveyors did not discover
until eighteen eighteen. At this point, the US has already
spent two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars construction. That
is not chump change of the time. That a serious, big,
(06:05):
imaginary military money. Yeah, let's let's in fleation. Calculate this
real quick. Here we go. Two hundred and seventy five
thousand dollars in eighteen eighteen is now worth approximately five million,
five hundred thirty three thousand, five hundred nineteen dollars and
(06:28):
sixty cents. Okay, so maybe not like Avatar money, but
you know, five million dollars five structure, that's a lot.
That's a lot firs stone instructure. It's true. There wasn't
even any like moving parts. There wasn't even any technology.
Probably windows, windows, door hinges, the original moving parts. Yes,
(06:49):
so this is This is a tremendous embarrassment, right. Uh,
what what do they do when they figure out that
this fort designed to protect the US from Canada is
you know, in Canada. Yeah. And it wasn't until eighteen
forty two that this discrepancy about the borderline was resolved.
There's something called the Webster Ashburton Treaty that provided the
(07:10):
understanding that the original border was going to hold. The
old line, um was that was surveyed by Valentine and
Collins in seventeen seventy four. That was known as the
forty five degree of north latitude and then became known
as the actual divide between New York and Vermont on
one side and the British province of Canada on the other.
(07:33):
And from this is a quote actually from a neat
Arama article, And from said point of intersection west along
the said divide lies as heretofore known and understood to
the Iroquois as or Sir Lawrence River. You know, this
is back in the day when if you wanted stuff
to sound totally profound, you added said you just peppered
in said. At some point, you know, our said guest
(07:57):
producer Paul Decan is agree here. So it's it's interesting
because they tried to resolve the issue. But while they
were resolving this, we have to remember this fort had
been abandoned decades. Locals are looting the construction site because
the work stopped, you know, and uh, Fort Montgomery, by
the time two comes around, is widely known as Fort Blunder.
(08:21):
But to to your point, after this Webster Ashburton Treaty,
that's the one right, they resumed construction in eighteen four
and Fort Blunder actually get some get some play. It's
a it's a working base. No, I'm just saying actually,
(08:43):
like I'm surprised. Look, it's a living language. I'll speak
I want as well you should. Then I will ask
questions as I want. Do you Are you one of
those people who's intimidated by the use of the word
actually or is it? For me? It's when it's at
the beginning of a sentence, it always so why are
you doing this? Yeah, it's sort of to me it's
a license to tune out whatever the person is about
(09:05):
to say after that. So I actually appreciate it because
it's kind of a context clue where you know, whatever's
gonna follow is going to be pretentious and unhelpful, like
that old Dmitri Martin observation when he says, I love
bumper stickers. Such a convenient way of saying, let's never
talk agreed. Oh I I like bumper stickers. They're just
not for me. You're not for me either. No, No,
(09:27):
I have a virgin car. This is straight. You can
see photos of Fort Blunder Fort Montgomery Excuses. If you
want to check out some close up pictures, visit historic
Lakes dot org, where you can see you can see
(09:48):
the lay of the land, you can see the old
map where they miscalculated everything. You can even see a
sketch about blunder Um, which depicts the the structure we
talked about earlier. I don't know if we talked about
some of the features of the fort outside of the
gun turrets or whatever, the little windows um, but it
(10:09):
did at one point stand ford eight feet high. The
western facing wall was known as the Gorge, and that
was adjacent to a giant called that's something called a
cover face or an earthen bank, and that was created
as a defensive aid for land attacks, and then it
had a moat. I didn't realize that I mean, it's
very much like old school kind of castle type features. Right.
(10:29):
It had a moat which was referred to as a
wet ditch, which was filled with lake water. These days
it is not it is not looking so hot. It
is quite worse for wear because a lot of local
you know, kids and ruffians and biker gangs, you know,
have just tagged it all up. It is actually for
sale if you're in the market. Um. In the nine twenties,
(10:52):
the US sold Fort Montgomery at an auction, and then
in nineteen eighty three Victor Pod, who was a shipping
magnate from mont Real, that's when he bought it, uh,
and he offered part of the property to New York
State as a historic preservation site, but New York did
not want it. Then Pod died in ninety nine and
his sons inherited the fort and tried to sell it
(11:15):
on eBay and actually got one valid bid for five
million bucks, but it fell through. Still for sale, I
believe the current asking price is around a million bucks.
That's a lot of depreciation, really is some five point
five three whatever, just sixty nine. That's worse than like
dealership depreciation when you drive the car off the lot,
(11:36):
you know, one million, not even a million. Ah, yes,
So from five point five million dollars and sixty nine
sins to just under a million dollars, that's boat level depreciation.
And you know, hopefully a lesson learned. There's a great
Atlas Obscure article about the current situation, and Fort Montgomery
(12:02):
is encountering, which just says for sale and abandoned decay
fort on a private island. It says decaying. Huh, and
it is. You can see some great pictures. It's overgrown,
there's graffiti all over it. There probably you know, syringes.
You know, they would have gone in there and guss
eat it up a little bit like they did for
real estate photos. You know, they're really not trying to
upsell this thing, are they been? No, No, they're not
(12:24):
really because the problem here is one of infrastructure, right,
and it's still on the National Register of Historic Places.
But every okay, everybody knows that it needs to be saved,
but nobody's willing to uh pony up the scratch and cheddar,
the itchy cheddar to uh to support it. For instance,
(12:47):
the Preservation League of New York State included this fort
on its seven to Save list in two thousand and nine,
a roundup of at risk historic sites that need help,
and according to Katie Peace, the communications director of the
Preservation League of New York State, there are no current
plans to rehabilitate the site. Uh it joins the ranks
(13:10):
of other historical places and objects of significance, like the
gunboat Spitfire, which was part of the American fleet that
contributed to the Saratoga Victory in seventeen seventies seven, or
the John van Houston House, which looks worse for wear,
but is a early eighteenth century example of Dutch settlement
(13:31):
along the Hudson, the plum Bronson House, which is also
just rapidly deteriorating, and the Magdalen Island, which has an
ancient past as a stopping place for Native American populations
or First Nations and Europeans who came later, the historic
South Street Seaport, the Burden Iron Works Museum. Those are
(13:54):
the seven, but there are many, many more, And when
you look around, whether it's in the US or in
other countries, I'm sure there's no shortage of decaying pieces
of history that should be preserved. Like have you ever
driven through Tennessee. Yeah, a little bit, but not not
not not a ton. Give me the scoop Tennessee is uh.
(14:15):
There must be some government program. I can say this
because I have family there. There must be some government
program to make sure that everybody has at least one
to two decaying barns in their fields. And you can
even see them when you just drive on the interstate.
But I'm always baffled by that, you know what I mean,
because these barns are in use, but they're ready for
(14:36):
one match to make them. That's very similar to driving
into some of the rural roads in UH in Georgia,
like between Atlanta and Athens, for example, or Augusta and Athens.
Lots of big open fields with just a single ramshackled
barn in the middle UH. And it looks like it's
leaning kind of at a canted angle, like it could
fall down with just a light breath of wind. Wire
(14:58):
grass country, especially if you drive. This is an example
for people who don't know how big this state is,
especially driving from Atlanta to Savannah down on Georgia's small
Atlantic coast. Have you made that drive? I have. It's
been a minute them that's a long one. It's a
long one, and it's not a particularly exciting one for
(15:19):
some people. But it's what how long is it? It's
ours from here to Savannah? From Atlanta, I believe it's
about six hours. Six hours, Yeah, six long hours, full
of full of history, and full of things that look
the worse for where you know. It reminds me whenever
(15:42):
I travel somewhere, whether for work or weather for personal reasons,
I always try to find a local museum or an
historic site. In Texas, recently, super producer Paul Michigan Control
Decan and I visited the Alum. Oh and hey, check
this out, man, I got something for you. Ben is
(16:04):
now rummaging through his bag of tricks. Um, okay, here
you go. I couldn't bring you the actual Alumo, but
I found that found a little thing. It's a pamphlet.
It's a handbill for the Alamo. Yeah, it absolutely is. Ben,
give me the rundown of the Alumo as I so.
(16:26):
So the thing that I think startled both Paul and myself.
It was And Paul, tell me if I get this wrong,
is that when we went to the actual Alumo uh
and and went inside, it's free to attend by the way.
Everything was under restoration or construction work, and there were
there were entire pieces of the building that needed to
(16:48):
be saved right uh, that were off limits, and we
we didn't get to do a lot of the fun stuff.
There's a re enactor who will built you in a
card game. We missed that. It was early in the morning.
But I'm a huge I'm a huge fan of that stuff,
and I hope that I hope that we can as
(17:08):
a species do our best to preserve the physical traces
of those who came before us, whether that is a
military fort, a vessel of note. Um, I don't know.
I see are there's a pretty big footprint for the
gift shop here, Ben. Was it spectacular? Was it an
above average gift shop? It was? You know it was?
It was. It was interesting. It was interesting. I I
(17:33):
did not personally pick up any gifts. I was there.
I was there for this story. But they have all
you know, Texas branded stuff, shot glasses, ashtrays, replica guns. Now, No,
not this time. If if they were giving out actual
pieces of the ALUMO might probably pick one up, but
that would maybe defeat their purposes. But you know what,
(17:55):
my friend, if ever I find myself on Fort Montgomery
or Fort Blunder. I will pick up some pieces of
history for us. Well, that's what we do here on
Ridiculous History band wee. We pick up the pieces of history.
We put them back together like a veritable Rubik's cube.
And this ends our episode. But not it's time, gentleman,
(18:28):
Jonathan Strickland a k. The quister Jon Strickland Quition. It's
gonna be back. Guys. You've got a lot of nerve
my friends. I sure do. Just in general, let's let's
just let's just let's just establish this just for a
moment though. Gentlemen, you're in my playground now because they're
not in your normal studio. You're in my studio. That's true,
(18:52):
that's true. We are we so we have a number
of studios here at h Q, and Jonathan, this is
uh of the studios where you spend a lot of
time recording. Uh let's see tech stuff. That's that's right. Yes,
in your studio, I record the brink, But in my
studio I record tex stuff. Yes. And uh, you know,
(19:12):
I gotta say I love what you've done with the place. Thanks,
thanks you you're enjoying my butt groove right now, you're
in my chair. I'm in your chair. That's the chair
I sit in. Oh that's right, Yeah, I didn't think that.
Are we cool? Do you want to switch chairs? I'm
fine with that. If we switch chairs, then you can
see whether or not the thing I'm about to tell you,
if it's true or false. That's You're just I'll just
stay here. You're here for a reason. And the most
(19:35):
cringe worthy segment in all the podcasting where I present
a scenario to the two hosts of Ridiculous History and
they determine whether or not I made it up or
if it's a real one. And I understand we were
talking about things about boarders and mistakes, about placing things
(19:57):
places where you may not actually own them, so this
is a somewhat related to that. But on the other
side of the United States of America, the southern side.
Have you ever wondered why Florida has a panhandle that
seems to cut off the bottom of the state of
(20:19):
Alabama all the time, constantly keeps up. We'll have a
scenario for you. You will have three minutes to decide
whether or not in fact it's true or false. And
of course we always have an arbitrary rule, and I
didn't come up with one beforehand. So if you're going
to ask me a question, before you can ask you, you
you have to yell spring break rules and then you
(20:40):
can ask a question. Deal because it has to do
with Florida and Alabama. All right, here we go. It's
because of a really bad map and some quote unquote surveyors.
After winning or purchasing territories from England, Spain, and France,
the American government got down to the business of establishing
(21:03):
states in the early eighteen hundreds. Originally, the Colony of
Georgia stretched much further to the west, but it was
decided that part of that land would be created into
the state of Alabama. The Chattahoochee River would serve as
a border month much of the state line and would
(21:23):
go all the way south, and a team of cartographers
determined that the Gulf Coast of what would have been
Alabama fell on the thirty one degree latitude line. Here's
the problem. The actual latitude line for the Gulf Coast
is thirty degrees, which meant that the map actually ended
(21:47):
much further north than the Gulf coast. But that's how
it was written down, and because that's how it was
written down in official documents, that's where the end of
Alabama would be. And because of that error, Alabama does
not have a Gulf coast that stretches across its entire
width instead of just has Mobile Bay begin Yes, Mr Brown, well,
(22:13):
I've got a run to the timer. It's in the
other studio. Hang on here, we're good, all right, we'll
just take about five seconds off that. All right? But yes,
is this is there anything to do with the band
Florida Georgia line. It certainly has not, as far as
they know, and thank the heavens, has nothing to do
(22:34):
with that band rules Yes, Mr boh so quister, what
you said it was the thirty a matter of confusing
THET and the thirty first. Yes, latitude, yes, okay uh?
And what year did this happen? It would have been
(22:56):
the early eight hundreds. It's before Alabama was officially declared
a state, which was I think I have this written down.
It's eighty. Hey, you're you're eating our time. I know.
I'm sorry. I have the facts written down, but I
didn't have it. Listen, I'm really much stronger in English
history than American history. Yes, but it was in the
(23:18):
early eighteen It was before before Alabama was made a state,
and certainly much before Florida Florida. I know it was
eighteen forty five, which was much later. Okay, Uh, you
got anything else? I feel like I feel like this
is true. I think it's probably true as well. Ben,
we'll lock it in. Let's lock it three to one.
(23:40):
Hellack true. It's so not true. It's it's like winning
doesn't even mean anything anymore. It's you're making me face
an existential crisis here, gentlemen, did you ever consider that
Maybe that's exactly our to keep playing the game anyway.
(24:02):
All well, let me tell you exactly what did happen though,
just to give you the real story, because it's actually
fascinating why there's a panhandle. So we have to keep
in mind there were four major players involved. We have England,
we have France, we have Spain. We have America. Now,
before the American Revolution, you had England with the colonies
(24:22):
that would become the United States of America. You had
Spain that owned uh, Florida, and that went as far
it could have gone as far west as the Mississippi.
You had France that owned the Louisiana Territory that was
much of the midwest and the south of what would
become the United States of America. Now, France and Spain
(24:43):
were sort of in disagreement of where that border was
along the southern edge the Gulf Coast, and they eventually
decided that Perdido River was the unofficial border, which is
between Mobile Bay and Pensacola, Florida. And so they decided
that was the boy. But then a whole bunch of
different stuff happened. England won the Seven Years War. They
(25:06):
took over Florida from Spain. Then Spain gave the Louisiana
territory to or France gave the Louisiana Tory tory territory
to Spain. This is what happens when I do the
Renaissance Festival three days in a row. I can't talk
straight anymore. So Spain now has the Louisiana territory. England
now has Florida. England extends the Florida border all the
(25:27):
way out to the Mississippi. So now the Florida's panhandle
reaches much further to the west. Right all, right, Then
America is revolting. You could argue frequently throughout its history,
but it ends up winning the Revolutionary War. England loses,
Florida goes back to Spain. So now Spain owns Florida,
(25:47):
but now the border goes all the way to the Mississippi.
Spain gives the Louisiana territory back to France, which then
turns around and sells it to the Americans. This would
be really helpful with a white board. Well, here's or
a lot of red string. So so here's what the
Americans do. They say, well, we're buying the Louisiana territory,
but what we're going to do is we're going to
(26:08):
refer to Louisiana tory tory back when this map was
drawn where the Perdido River was the border. So they
essentially tell Spain, oh, no, we bought the Louisiana territory
from like three times before. Spain said uh no, And
then America sent a bunch of troops down to the
Gulf coast and Spain said all right, fine, And then
(26:32):
a few years later Spain ends up surrendering Florida to
the United States. And that is why Florida has a
panhandle and Alabama has a very limited Gulf coast. Well said,
Well said, you know, I've always It's fascinating because I
think where I got I got tripped up is as
soon as you were talking about the original size of
(26:53):
the colony of Georgia. I know part of that is true,
that's true, but I probably should have listened better. The
first part, that's true. The rest of it's gonna be right.
I should probably not treat these very important questions the
way I treat group emails to every or any conversation
with me. Honestly, that's not true. No, I listened pretty
(27:17):
pretty in depth. You know, I'm calling I have my
finger on the pulse of the Jonathan Strickland aspect of
your life. By the way, congratulations on wrapping up the
Renaissance Festival. Thank you, thank you. I I think it
added about five years to the age that I already am,
or perhaps you could say subtracted them from the end
(27:37):
of my life. Either. It gets you right around the
age you were supposed to be for your character, though,
because that's what the right around the age was when
he died. Yes, Well takes some takes some vitamins. Uh,
Look you I have unfortunate news you can't die yet, Nolan,
I and all our friends listening at home need to
(28:00):
at least get a little bit out of the hole, right, Yes,
I don't even know how any ahead now, all right,
but that's fine, it's fine, it's fine. I was actually
going to give you the true one originally, and then
I thought, well, this one's is so convoluted, but it's
obviously true. Yeah, And we've been we've been exploring and
(28:20):
all I think you said this at the top. We've
been exploring a lot of stuff about boundaries and borders recently.
So this this was an excellent question, and you know,
one of these days we're going to get one right. Well.
It's also it also really illustrates how how this is
a sticky, sticky situation, even when you're looking at borders
(28:42):
between two areas in the same country. There's there's other
stories about states that have had border disputes that had
to be settled by Congress when they were actually establishing
the states. Yeah, like the Ohio and Michigan exactly, Like
like Hio, Michigan and that that little thin sliver who
(29:03):
owns that yes, yes, who owns Toledo. So thank you
so much for coming on the show, Jonathan without giving spoilers,
because you've got a lot of irons in the fire
right now, Where can people visit to learn more about you,
your work and your shows. Not certainly. You can go
to tech stuff podcast dot com to look at the
(29:26):
more than one thousand episodes of tech stuff recorded over
the last eleven years. Is that recent one thousand? It's
one tho I'm almost up to now, okay, because I remember,
yes that I I hit a thousand last year. That's right,
actually because two years ago. But yes, it's a uh.
We've been doing a lot of interesting work, especially around
(29:49):
artificial intelligence and ethics and things of that nature. Not
very historically oriented, but I would recommend if you have
any interest in the ethics of technology. Yeah, there's been
quite a few episodes about that recently, fantastic and I
ignore all of that when I come on here. Great, great,
keep keep your characters like that off offspring song right
(30:12):
comes up a rate exactly, but hey, hey, don't pay
no mind. As we were saying earlier, this is the
end of the episode but not the show, and the
conversation continues. We want to hear your thoughts. You can
find us all on Instagram, Facebook, and uh not Twitch,
that's that's the thing you did. But Twitter, which is
a different thing that sounds similar. Twitter is my new
(30:34):
platform that I'm starting. I like Twitter paint. It's sort
of a Twitch Twitter hybrid exactly that. Yes, I think
I have a physical tick that will make me an
ideal influencer on Twitter. You can get it on the
ground floor. Excellent. I like Thither, it's the startup I have.
Uh that's it overlays your favorite GPS devices and gives
(30:56):
you driving instructions in old English. So it's it's a
great Frank gift for your friends. Oh you was supposed
to go Thither, but you turned you on a pox
on your house. So you can find out more about
our our brilliant world changing startups on our Facebook page,
(31:16):
Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet our favorite part of
the show, your fellow listeners. You can also follow our
individual uh misadventures and Shenanigan re on Instagram. I'm at
Ben Bolan, I am at how Now, Noel Brown, I'm
at John Strickland with her without an got it. He
(31:38):
used to be at no H but it's weird, just exactly.
No one knew, what the what the l what's going on? Oh? Okay, yeah, yeah, no,
I'm with you. It's it's been a long day. Big
thanks to our guest super producer Paul Mission Controlled deck It,
(32:00):
who has been chilling with us all afternoon and it
is probably uh what do you think? No, I think
he's tired of this yet. You know, he looks okay,
it doesn't like too cranky. He's got a little wry
smile on his face. I think it always looks great.
I think it was tired of you before you came
in here. Actually, if he has been working with you
guys for a really long time, right right, Well, thank
you either way, Paul. Also thank you to super producer
(32:21):
Casey La Bush Pegram wherever he may roam. Big thanks
to Alex Williams who can post our theme. And thanks
to a friend of the show, Christopher Hasiotis Thinks as
always to Jonathan Strickland, a k a. The Whister, Thanks
to our research associate Gabe and Hey No, thanks to
you man, safe travels and to you as well. We'll
(32:42):
see you next time, folks. M For more podcasts from
(33:06):
My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple
Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.