September 2, 2021 • 57 mins
Recently, Ben and Noel traveled to Podcast Movement to explore a fascinating, at-times difficult subject: How do you explore a heavy story in an approachable way, while still being honest, accurate and human? They're joined once again with Eli and Diana Banks, the hosts of Ridiculous Romance, as well as their favorite moderator and longtime friend, Lauren Vogelbaum.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Hi, how are you.
I hope you're doing well. Hello to all all your
loved winds, all your friends. Hello to the one and
only super producer Max Williams. This is an intro to
something different because we did a live show for the
(00:47):
first time in years. It was so much fun. It
was kind of a live show. Does it count as
a live show? Oh? Yeah, there are people. There were
real life people there, and we were there in person. You,
myself and Eli and Diana from Ridiculous Romance, along with
Lauren Vogelbaum, our dear friend and colleague and host of
the amazing American Shadows on the Grim and Mild Network
(01:10):
of brain Stuff of Savor, along with Annie Reese. And
this is one of our favorite people in general. Who's
a fantastic job of moderating a panel we did about
I believe you came up with his name? Man? What
was it? The the humorists and the heavy Yeah, the
humor and the heavies. So, if you've heard our previous
episode or previous series where we were lucky enough to
(01:32):
have our friends Diane and Eli on the show. Their show,
Ridiculous Romance is delightful, but just like our show, they
run into some pretty heavy subjects. So we went Uh Noel,
You and I and uh Diana and Eli and Lauren
a couple of other folks went to podcast Movement in Nashville, Tennessee,
(01:54):
where we spoke with a crowd about how to how
to do right by these stories, these historical people, places
and events, and how not to diminish them when we
are telling these stories, but how to do it in
an accurate and approachable way. So it isn't as a
what did you call? You had a great phrase in
(02:14):
this one. I think it was like a slog or
a death march or something I can't remember. Man. That's
the thing though, right Ben, Like, I mean, some of
the topics that we discuss inevitably do have some kind
of heavier elements that I wouldn't say we're necessarily a
comedy podcast, you know, where we try to do our
(02:35):
best to approach this stuff with with lightheartedness and kind
of make it listenable and approachable. Um, we're definitely a
history podcast first, but we do have to be careful
not to either not the little or just to kind
of like give a sense of dismissiveness by being too
you know, lighthearted when things maybe you're a little heavy,
but also to balance those things. And I think Diane
(02:56):
and Eli, you know, approach ridiculous romance very similarly. And
we had a really great, very open conversation with a
great Q and A at the end at Podcast Movement,
and we thought it would be great to share with
you as is because we really enjoyed it and we
hope that you do too, And next time Max will
be there. Definitely. Yes, here it is folks, before you
(03:20):
get started, thank you so much for coming to this
panel today. Is everybody having a good time at Podcast Movement?
So far? Has everyone gotten lost? Like in the Jurassic
Park atrium at least once? Cool, twice, three times lost?
Is anybody here actually lost now? Because if so, I
(03:42):
will give directions. That's great at that. Yeah. The panel
that you're supposed to be in is called the Humor
and the Heavy explore serious subjects with finesse and empathy.
That sounds like I'm in the wrong place. You're our ringer,
he needs you? Uh so, Hi, I'm Lauren vog Obama.
(04:02):
I am your friendly neighborhood moderator. Um. The panel that
we are in is the thing that I just said.
Here with me on the stage today we have Ben Boland,
Noel Brown, Eli Banks, and Diana Brown no relation that
I know of, not for friends, um and uh. Yeah.
They are the hosts of Ridiculous History and Ridiculous Romance,
(04:25):
which are two podcasts. So it's part of it. It's
part of a whole ridiculous slate now at heart U
extended extended well good um uh and and and these
two shows explore, try to take bits of history that
are honestly ridiculous, um and and explore the y and
(04:48):
how of of of of what went down um. And
frequently it's very funny and frequently it's incredibly tragic um
often at the same time. UM. And So what they
wanted to talk about today, UM is just just their
their insight into how they handle that carefully and with
human empathy, but also keeping it keeping it light and funny, entertaining. UM.
(05:12):
So uh. I have some questions. Okay, all right, we
go way into it. So y'all do often take a
humorous approach, but um, but you have to acknowledge those
serious uncomfortable realities that are part of the stories that
you're telling. Um, how how would you all describe the
(05:32):
process for how you handle that on air? So I
guess I would. I would kick us off by saying
one of the first things to think about is the
It's almost cliche, but in our opinion, when Nolan and
I first started Ridiculous History, we decided from day one
that the most important part of any show we ever do,
(05:56):
episode or podcast entire is going to be the audience.
And so, you know, we dumb puns are there a plenty,
you know, and and bits and riffing, but ultimately we
want to serve the story and the audience by telling
the truth, even when it might feel uncomfortable. Uh and
(06:18):
and a lot of Honestly, when you think about it,
a lot of comedy exists in this sort of liminal
space between what makes us laugh and what makes us uncomfortable.
Laughter itself is often a reaction to things that people
would rather not acknowledge. It's kind of funny. Actually. Is
one thing you learned being a podcast there is you
(06:39):
can't make everybody happy. Um. So oftentimes we will hedge
a little bit or talk about how a practice of
a certain era. Perhaps it's problematic and wouldn't fly today,
And we literally get kind of dumped on sometimes for
like trying to do that too hard maybe, But I
think we do it just hard enough, and it's important
to us to acknowledged the present and you know, the
(07:02):
norms and what's okay now and why this. I mean,
I'm trying to think of a good example, even like
in the history of underwear for example, like how it's
so based on this like weird patriarchal kind of idea
of beauty and like fashion and it was very like
the opposite of empowering for women. Um, and then it
kind of you know, progressed from there and became like
(07:22):
you know, Calvin Klein underwear models and all that. Oh
and reading historically accurate quotations because people were, you know,
way less diplomatic at times. How about y'all. I know
it's something. One thing that's inituting different between our shows
is we set a cut off historically very very arbitrary. Well,
(07:43):
it wasn't entirely arbitrary. It was based around apartheide. We
had an episode about like a really plucky guerrilla in
the in the Johannesburg Zoo that like chased down a criminal. Um,
and that was the focus of the story. But this
is a great example too. It was all surrounded by apartheid,
which is obviously a historical event that is super tragic
its own form of genocide. You could argue in some ways,
(08:06):
but like we decide, Okay, this is a recent enough
historical event and we really can't go much further back
than this. So we sat there cut off in mid nineties.
But y'all, you don't really have that cut off. I
think it's great because history is obviously being written every day.
But um, with some of the more modern stuff that
you guys do, how do you approach it, you know,
in terms of keeping it light while talking about like
(08:29):
heroin addicts that are murdering each other, like sitting Nancy
for example. It's true, um, And and that's sort of
you know, we've been leaning more historical because it's nice
to have at least the full story of these people's lives.
When we're talking about a romance, you know, we want
to see the context of where they met and kind
of the whole story of how it ended. Um. But
we do get into some more modern stories while trying
(08:49):
to dodge tabloid e stuff. You know, Um, we've done
a couple of celebrities. Go ahead, Oh, I was just
gonna say we were really steering clear of like a
Hollywood insider e new you know, like tabloid e exploitative
kind of feeling of if it's not got something, if
it's just like look at these two weird like it's
(09:10):
kind of it feels bad, you know what I mean.
There's got to be a richness to it, Like, um,
you know, we're not just going to peer inside people's
current lives, you know, and pick them apart and and
tell that story. We won't. We want some sort of
richness out of it. Like when we, for example, did
the Robert Downey Jr. And his wife's story, that was
what we were really talking about is addiction and uh
(09:32):
and and how difficult that is. And we kind of
used that fairly modern, sort of tabloidy kind of story
to examine something I think a little deeper than that, hopefully. Yeah.
I think you guys do do a great job, but yeah,
they're better than us at um uh Eli and Diana
(09:52):
there you're you're talking about these relationships from the past. Um,
are there any examples that you have for us of
of ones that are clearly misunderstood by people in these
are modern times. Well, I'll start with UM one. I
think it's really interesting. We just did recently. That's uh,
(10:13):
this story has really opened up only in the last
couple of years, and that was Winston and Clementine Churchill.
And um, that was full of challenges because Winston Churchill
is a super complicated character. He did a lot of
really great things and a lot of really horrible things,
and um, but only in recent years of biography came
out in or this author you know, went through all
(10:37):
their personal letters and just found out that she was
hugely instrumental in his rise to success and ultimately defeating
the Nazis, which was great. And you know that a
guy took credit for something a woman actually did. Yeah,
I know, you know happen over and over again. It
never happens, but this time it happens weird. So um.
(11:01):
So that was one where you know, the the idea
of Clementine Churchill for so long was that she was
very quiet and kind of just like stood by her
man and I've never heard of her. I'm not joking.
I mean, I didn't see the movie, but I've not
heard of Clementine Church. Yeah, I knew the exact moment. Yeah,
I'm ashamed to do very little before we started researching
and um and kind of learning that romance was something
(11:23):
I don't think people are only beginning to understand it.
So that was something that you know, we were happy
to bring out to people. But then Arita, yeah, definitely
we are. Like our second episode was about woman who
married the Berlin Wall, and so we ended up like
going married married Berlin Wall and so just throwing that
(11:47):
out there. Um, we ended up getting really into objective sexuality,
and we started talking about animalism and in all kinds
of like just it went into a lot of different
kind of rabbit holes. I as you could say, um,
but it was I think was something was very misunderstood
about them because they they as you as you got
more and more into how they feel about it and
(12:09):
how they expressed it and how how it's happening for
them and in real time, and and it was really
kind of profound and it was powerful, and I was like,
I feel this romance happening, even though I can't enter it,
I would I can't enter into that at all myself.
But I was like, I like, I'm I have a
little tear in my eye. I would watch this Pixar movie.
(12:30):
I would I mean, you know, like and I would
play the wall. Who would be the voice of the world?
Can we go Tom Wait Christoph Waltz? Perhaps Christoph he
used to go to German her song I Am Lonely
Please Love Me. Yes. I would watch the movie. Well.
I was really glad we did that episode first or early,
(12:53):
because I think we approached it because it sounded funny,
and that that as we dug into it, I think
we really like just found a lot of empathy for
these people and understanding and it really sort of set
I think us in a direction on the show. It
was like, we need to come at every subject with
a hugely open mind. Um, and sometimes you know your
(13:13):
mind is open and you learned something incredible and you
you have a whole new appreciation, and sometimes you get
like Sit and Nancy. I didn't know anything about them.
I was like, I'm really open to learn about learning
one of these people. And I was injured. That was
a very like, very dark story that was hard to
but I think I think that's how you you do
the line of humor and heavy is sort of remembering
(13:35):
that history. It's very human. Everyone you're you're looking at
is human. And even if there are a thousand years ago,
four thousand years ago, ten years ago, we all have
things that are I mean instincts that are just real.
And if you can tap into that, you can you
can take anything with respect, and you can tell that
story with respect and still have a lot of fun
with it without like punching down. I got it til
(13:58):
this Winton as the wall like, of course, where are planning? Yes,
she might be one of us right now? No, no, no no,
she's amazing. Yes, this is all of us? Are Tilda Wins?
(14:18):
Speaking of those human moments that are so important, how
do you how do you find those and all of
the stories that you pursue. I think that's a that's
a question that applies to any podcast. I'd like to
pull us in the audience because we are recording this live.
This will be on our show later, so you are
(14:40):
already part of the show now, uh. And I think
we we have a lot of people at the movement
today who are themselves podcasters, right, and you run into
those moments where you say, why why am I telling
this story? How do I convey this story differently? You know,
what what is the difference between someone just reading a
(15:03):
timeline that says so and so was born in eighteen
nineteen and then in eighteen thirty four, you know, they
invented um, they invented round what corn? They invented rounds
corn or something like that. And then you go, you
go through a timeline, you kind of lose the soul
(15:24):
of it. Uh, Like Diana said, nobody is no life
is one big game of telephone and long form improv
No one's really sure how it's gonna end. You know,
you just try to sort of yes and your way
through it. And uh, what you find is that if
you really look at these people, not as epic you know,
(15:45):
entreges in a history textbook, what you find is that
they too are rarely convinced that they are doing the
right thing. They have quarrels. You know, Well, it's interesting
to all depends on the source, right, Like you know,
as you said, history is written by the the winners
and all of that, So it certainly can have a
spin to it and a slant to it. And I
think The key too is reading from lots of different sources,
(16:06):
lots of different perspectives, and also having our own perspective.
Because there was a really great talk earlier with Charlemagne
and uh, Jill Scott and our boss Connall and and
Dolly of course, and I think what something Charlottage said
that was totally correct is that podcasts are all about personality.
I think that's sort of like a kind of statement,
but it's about perspective, you know. It's like we anybody
(16:27):
can tell the same story, but it's not gonna be
the same story. It's all about who's telling it and
how it's being told. And not to say that facts
are going to change. What it's about the empathy and
the humanness that you bring to it as an individual
human person with a perspective, and that's how you connect,
you know, with your audience, I think, which is something
I think Eli and Diana do really well. Agreed, well,
thank you, thank you are totally humans. Honestly, we have
(16:51):
a little easier than you guys, because our subject matter
is literally romance, So there is a very human element
like built into every episode, even even when it's not
a romance like the John lorraina Bobbitt story. You know
that there's there's still a human romance of a kind.
It is, right and in the beginning and they when
they met, there was a very brief, beautiful moment where
(17:14):
they were just totally enamored with each other and you know,
went downhill from there, but very brief downhill into a
bush behind. Yeah, that was great. This is the kind
of stuff you can expect on episodes of ridiculous history
and ridiculous Romance. But no, I think again, it's just
(17:35):
it's kind of what you bring to the table. And
I agree that that you guys do a really really
great job of kind of like humanizing and just being
empathetic and just like approaching things with kindness, you know,
and not punching down. There's so many podcasts that are
very inherently negative or mean spirited, and I like some
of those a lot, but that's not what we do.
We try to bring sort of a kindness and a
thoughtfulness but also lightheartedness to some heavy topics. Yeah. Um,
(18:00):
have there been any figures who who you've started looking
into when you start realizing that they've just been completely misportrayed?
D that's largely accurate. Um. Yeah, what a great question,
because there are the distressing slash inspiring answer. You can
(18:23):
decide whether this glass for you is half full or
half empty. To be super cliche about it, is that a,
if not a majority, a surprising and disturbing, disturbingly sizeable
proportion of people of figures throughout history are in some
way misportrayed and their misportrayed often because um, the way
(18:46):
that they are taught to students. You know, if you're
if you're not in grad school for James Joyce, you're
probably not going to hear all the weird stuff James
Joyce did. I mean, I'm gonna keep it kind of
family friendly. But James Joyce was like not a beloved
figure in his you know, his version of cheers, his
(19:06):
his bars that he would hit up when he wasn't
agonizing over Finnigan's wake or something, because he would do
stuff where he had This is true. He had a
tiny pair of women's Uh oh, we did the underwear episode.
We should have mentioned this, I remember that story. It
didn't make it in but um, he had a tiny
pair of women's underwear that he would fit around his
(19:30):
pointer in his middle finger finger skateboard. Yeah, like fingers exactly.
And and so he was like people were when they
saw him, they were instantly tired. Yeah, he would like
walk up and he wouldn't know them, and he would
be like, oh do do do do? Do Do do do?
And people don't want to really know that about the
guy who changed Western literature. I think it makes very
(19:54):
happy to know that about the guy who changed Western literature.
But that's that's again, that's a human moment right now,
especially with some work as heavy and puzzled over as
like some of his stuff. As you know, there's like
literal puzzle box of a of a novel. I was
a weird dude. Yeah, I love that. I'd say our
(20:15):
biggest in that category is probably the Empress all Gablos. Yeah. Yeah,
she was transgender Empress of Rome. And we know that
because the documents of the time about her said she said,
call me the Empress, call me his wife. That is
what I want to be referred to as. And then
for eighteen hundred years, most of the documents said he
(20:39):
when they were talking about her, and um, so that
you know, we of course that's a lot more modern
discourse that we're able to kind of learn and examine that.
But um, but I think it's something that is starting
to change and and has been misrepresented through history. But
we're you know, we can obviously look at it a
different way now, but especially with things like Ancient Rome,
(21:01):
where again the history is written by the winners, like
you have perspectives where it could be like very belittling
to someone like that, and you'll see certain historians that
clearly have a slant and had an issue with this person. Yes,
that was something that was something that really came clear
researching that episode, because it was like, Okay, well at
the time they wrote this, but it could have been
(21:21):
a job they were trying to make them look bad
or something, or they erased from history people that they
were just like, actually, that your punishment. We're just going
to just scratch you out the record for a minute,
like for four to tend to however many years, and
then you have to go back and kind of be like, okay,
So this could be hearsay, it could be gossip. It
could be a story somebody told somebody else because they
(21:41):
wanted to look cool, you know, like, you know, you're
not sure, and it's that's kind of interesting too to
see that pettiness if you know history, Yeah, we've never
stopped the ship. And because it's you know, at least
according to the records we do have, because she was
a terrible person, you know, like murdered a lot of people.
(22:04):
Um So yeah, it's hard to walk that one back,
you know, but but I think you know, one thing
we could take away from that question is something that
applies to us today, which is, um often, the way
history is taught trends toward telling us one thing about
(22:24):
a person, and it may be the most important thing
they've ever done, and it may have fundamentally, you know,
changed our experience living today. But that wasn't the only
thing they did. Like the current Dali Lama true story,
super into watches. He like collects watches. He's he's all
about it, and he doesn't, I guess really talk about
it like watches. I think he's like I do, and
(22:47):
it would be super cool. But but everybody like you're
you're here, you're here today and thank you for being here.
And you you right now are the version of you
that has gone to meet up about podcasts. But you're
also someone's kid. You may have children of your own,
You probably have like a high school friend that thinks
(23:10):
of you as a totally different version of you, and
people throughout history have that too. Maybe not the high
school things, but you know, you get so much of history,
especially like armschair, like pop history is is inherently reductive.
It kind of has to be. It's really impossible or
you know, unless you're Malcolm Gladwell or whoever that guy's
that does the five hour History podcast, Carlin Carlin. Yeah,
(23:32):
I can't damn that, I can't do it. I'm sure
it's great. I'm sure it's for somebody, but it's not
for me, and I'm okay with that. But um, I
think you can handle the short form versions still with
respect and not being so reductive that you're you know,
creating a super one dimensional picture of of of one
(23:53):
of these figures. And this is this is something I
want to shout out with that that I love that
you all do and ridiculous romance. You you do what
I think good storytellers should do, which is you embrace
those tangents. You know, like when people people used to
talk about Nikola Tesla right, and they would say, uh,
(24:15):
you know, they would have like the five to six
talking points and then somebody did the research and said, oh,
actually he got real deep with this pigeon toward the
end of his life and it was like weirdly wholesome.
And then that became one of those points. And I also,
you know, Lauren Vogel Bomb moderating today has a show
that she does, one of her many shows called Savor,
(24:38):
which is ostensibly about food. Uh and catch me if
I missed speaking here, but it's never okay, well, it's
never just about food. I feel like because it goes
into culture, it goes into folk glory, goes into the
sociology of the thing, and if you really want to
understand a person and event a cons sept than, like
(25:01):
Noel said, you need to look at all the differing,
disagreeing sources, and then you need to look at all
the things around it because context is crucial to the plot. Yeah, um,
thank you for the shout out. I want to go
back to this is partially what what what you guys
are talking about about sensitivity, but also partially what um
(25:22):
what y'all were talking about about wanting to avoid being exploitative? Exploitative?
What's just the word? Does anyone hear you? Great? Um,
I was an English manajor um uh about about trying
not to be that thing. Um, but still like, like
(25:42):
you guys do funny podcasts like funny as part of
the sticks, So like, how do you how do you
kind of um have fun without making fun? I like
what Diana said punching down. That's I mean, that's a
huge ruling comedy in general, is that you know how
much power is in the equation. That's who you make
fun of is the one who has all the power
(26:03):
in this situation. And the people who don't, you don't
make fun of them. They got enough to deal with. So, um,
I think that's definitely a uh what's that word? You know? Yeah,
you found it? Well, no, well, I was just gonna
say it's you know, we like our show We're Married
(26:26):
White Cis had a renormative couple. Like, there's a lot
of down to punch and it's but it's also not
difficult to find completely different things to laugh about. Like
we talked about, um, the Lonely Hearts killers. Yeah, right,
these are two people who met in a catalog in
the fifties newspaper ads in the fifties and uh, and
(26:47):
then got together and murdered a bunch of people. And
there's not a lot funny about that. Um, I don't
know what we did. I shouldn't even brought up because
I can't remember what we did find funny about that.
That's the thing, though, You don't have to make it
into a joke or write into a bit it again,
like I was saying, it's all about your perspective and
the humans will let you approach something heavy. You're not
going to tell a doom and gloom I call it
(27:08):
misery porn story. You're gonna find something to just be
yourselves around it. It's really the key, you know. You
don't have to convert it into some kind of like
stand up routine. That's not what we do at all.
We make fun of ourselves exactly the circumstances they're in.
I mean, you know that era is was there was
(27:29):
so much ridiculousness happening, happening around the circumstances that led
to their relationship, that led to what they were doing
to other people in their lives who you know, allowed
them to behave like this, or it's just absurd and
you can kind of laugh at that, I think, or
the joke the joke is also can be what my
reaction to this or how I would how I would
have reacted, and how differently this person did, you know
(27:49):
what I mean. That's the joke becomes like if it
were me, I would have sold him up the you know,
it would have been a totally difference. And then you
have a good time and then let me get back
to the story, which is very tragic, and we're going
back to the story now. I think that's an important
way to connect with your audience too, is because they're
thinking that themselves, and then you're acting as a stand
in for them as well and kind of inserting yourself
(28:10):
into the narrative. And I think that's something that we've
learned and we get the most outreach about. Is like
I just like hanging out and like, you know, you
guys ask the questions that occurred to me as they
occurred to me, And I think that's a real you know,
it's sort of intuitive, but it is something you learned
to kind of lean into over time. You know. Yeah,
that's so great, Yeah, what would you do in that situation?
That's why people, uh, that's why people watch horror films, right,
(28:35):
because there's something too to knowing your own perspective on
there and saying like, yeah, don't go in the cabin,
you know, and you're looking around at other people in
the theater and they're like, please stop talking. You're like,
but yeah, I think that's it. I think that's a
huge point. Um that that I love. I love to
(28:57):
hear in podcast we're just in conversation because really you're
exercising empathy by assuming that perspective. And also just the
last thing is like we are trying to have you
walk away with having learned a thing a little bit
at least, you know, um, something that you can remember,
and whether you've learned from the experiences of others historically,
or it's just a little, you know, thing you can
(29:17):
bring up at parties and tell us weird story about,
you know, the married couple that went on a killing spree. Um,
that's a good, good party fodder. But sure, no, I'm
just saying like, that's a big part of it too.
As we want to make people are walking away having
learned something, having been entertained, and having felt some kind
of connection. I guess so as you're as you're talking
(29:44):
through some of these subjects that that do get into
deep weird places. Has there ever been a moment where
you felt like ethically or morally obligated to tell a
particular part of the story, or to tell a particular
part of it a particular way. Yes. Yeah. You can't
do a heartwarming story about a guerrilla in South Africa
(30:06):
in the ninety nineties and not talk about apartheime. That
was a big deal. You cannot not do. That was
sort of the wake up moment for us. We were like, oh,
we kind of have to figure out how to do
the thing that we're talking about today, because that was
relatively early on in the show's life, and that's when
we realized we had to talk about the surrounding circumstances
of this ultimately heartwarming story. To make the heartwarming bit payoff,
(30:28):
you had to explain the like tragedy surrounding this whole thing.
This guerrilla, by the way, became this rallying figure kind
of around um which people just kind of like almost
this revolutionary figure, you know, during apartheid when all of
this horrible stuff was happening, or if you like, talk
about silly things that in retrospect seems silly from earlier
(30:51):
eras of humanity. You know, you talk about, um, what's
like one of those old songs like the origin of
the song Ring around the Rosy, you know what I mean?
That gets dark pretty quickly, and it's kind of irresponsible,
or at the very least, it's somewhat unethical or misleading
if if you are telling that story and you're not
(31:13):
also saying this might seem cute. See now, but here's
why it happened. Because people in the past, we're not unintelligent.
They were working with what they had, you know, and
you talk about like, um, there's a fantastic podcast called
Sawbones right which talks about what we would call medical quackery, right,
And what really that is is it's not a bunch
(31:34):
of people waking up and going, you know, I'm gonna
get I'm gonna get real weird with it today. I'm
just gonna like, yeah, I'm gonna like prescribe walking wider
shins around an included moon and then uh slapping people
with beats that came from somewhere. You know, Like people
were thinking through a process the best they could, and
(31:57):
that's the empathy we have to have. They did not
have the advantages that people living now have now for sure, well, uh,
one of I'm kind of thinking of two or three
actually this you know, you guys mentioned apartheid, and we
did the story about Seret sit Comma and Ruth Williams,
and that was an interracial couple that they uh married
(32:21):
in what was Beshawana Land at the time, later became Botswana.
Actually because of their marriage and um and apartheid, you know,
forced them, even though it was happening in another place
in South Africa, their influence on England and trade deals
and everything got England to force them at in x
into exile out of their own country. UM. So you know, similarly,
(32:42):
we had to kind of address apartheid in that episode.
That ended up being a really important contextual part of
their story. Um. Other times it's less contextual. But we
did the story of um Bert and Linda Poogash, who,
uh it's an insane story. It's our next episode to
come out. And this guy hired uh some some thugs
(33:04):
to attack this woman who didn't want to date him anymore,
and they threw acid in her face and blinded her.
And when he got out of prison twelve years later,
they got married and we're happily married for the rest
of their life. Um, and it's a whole story, but
within that, he was in Attica Prison during the Attica
Prison riots and it was only very tangentially involved. And
(33:27):
I didn't know a lot about the Attica Prison riots
when I was doing the research, and I learned about
them and said, it's insane that I haven't ever heard
of this. Watched Afternoon as part of your research. I I, well,
we need to because we're gonna do that couple too.
I haven't seen it since I was a kid. But
that was where it wasn't necessarily contextual to a story,
but I was like, I can't not take this opportunity
(33:48):
to make people aware of this thing. So it almost
turned into a ten part series just about that had
but but couldn't walk away without bringing it up. It
just seemed too important. Yeah. I think when we did
um the sixteenth century poets Shah Hussain and Madu Law,
that was definitely one where I was like, Okay, it
(34:08):
feels important to explain not only his his uh, the
sect of religion that he was practicing, not only that,
areas of feelings currently about gay marriage or gay relationships,
and also all the the political like stuff with Kashmir
and the line of control and all this stuff. Because
their relationship was a Hindu and a Muslim living in harmony.
(34:31):
So their relationship is still considered like a symbol of
universal harmony for them and and and true like spiritual connection.
And so some some of them are like, they were
just spiritual, they were not lovers. It was not gay,
you know whatever. And then a lot of people are like,
they know that. I think they were gay. They had
they had a loving gay relationship, you know whatever. So
(34:54):
it was really interesting to dive into that and feel
it really felt important to have all that contact around
their relationship because otherwise it wasn't as powerful. You didn't
see the impact. Why we chose it, you know, it
was like this, this has a lot, you know, it
was deep. So, yeah, we get in those rabbit holes.
Sometimes they're good rabbit holes and sometimes they're not helpful. Yeah,
(35:17):
you find out at the bottom. I think then you're
trapped in a rabbit hole. Yeah, how do you climb out?
I think that's going to be a question at some point. Um.
Has there has there ever been a story that as
you were getting into it, you were like Oh, this
is actually too much and I need to put it
down and walk away. Have you ever walked away from
(35:37):
a story? Uh? Well, yeah, there's a couple that come
to mind. One. Uh. We early on said oh, we
should do Marilyn Monroe story and we started doing some
research on that and we were like, you know what,
this is really difficult and sad story, Like there's not
(35:57):
we we can't have fun with this. We it doesn't
fit our show because it's totally inappropriate to be funny
about much of any of it. So that was one
where we've we may one day tackle it, but I
think so far we've decided it's not it's not right
for our show. Um. And then cha Hussain to mad Hulal.
We actually re recorded that episode. It was it was
(36:18):
like our third episodes kind of yeah, kind of learned
about start and kind of realized you were over. We
were being so reverent and you know, because this was
a totally different culture than ours and we really wanted
to be respectful and stuff, and I think we went
a little too far and it wasn't fun. It was
it was a little too quiet and and and calm,
(36:40):
and it didn't have a lot of energy timelineing. Like
you mentioned earlier, yea very were born. They went to
a thing, they did a stuff and it was over,
you know, and it was like, yeah, this isn't it.
We so we like, let's just empty our minds and
just redo it without any like serious notes. We were
just like, let's just have more fun with it, have
a good time with it, tell this story, keep the aspect,
(37:00):
and and it turned out great. The second time definitely
was much. That's a really good I don't I don't
know if we've walked away from well there was that was.
We also have a full disclosure. We have an amazing
research is just in game who helps us, you know,
do kind of like bullet points and pull from different
sources and helps pick topics. You know, because Benn and
I also do another show called Stuff. They don't want
(37:22):
you to know that we five days a week. Um,
we do two episodes of Ridiculous History every week. So
it's nice to have a little bit of research help.
But we you know, dig in ourselves as well and
contribute and it's sort of a collaborative process. But I
think there were a few that he pulled that we
maybe never did because they there was one that was
about like some German folk tales around Christmas or something
(37:44):
like that. It was so like just grim and dark
and like kind of depressing and like ring around the
posy moment. It really was, And it was like, uh,
I think we were just like, you know, well, let's
just give that one a miss. We I guess you're right.
We did walk away from We did walk away from
Jack the Ripper. Uh, not to be too precious about it.
(38:06):
There's a lot of I mean, there's a lot of
excellent scholarship on this is probably one of the most
well documented serial murders in in in this era. That's
for a different show, though it is for a different show.
And then also you know, it's, um, we didn't want
to be precious about it, but it's kind of callous
(38:26):
to be like, hey, these people's lives were horrible, they
died in horrible ways. What do you do net waca
waca waka. That's terrible, you know, And so we we've
I think over time, uh me and this guy have
developed sort of a spidy sense for that kind of
for that kind of thing, because you know, you you
(38:47):
earn the trust the report of again, the most important
part of the show the person listening, and they're extending
what I would argue as the most valuable currency of
this time, which is time. Right, your personal time in
the world of ubiquitous, never ending information, make it worth
(39:07):
it and if there if you're if someone's trusting us
to UH, to properly convey a story and to travel
along with us for a few minutes, then we don't
want to trick them. That's like hopping into an uber
to go down the street and you're like, holy why
are we going to Montana now? And the double bactor.
That's really totally true what we said earlier about it's fine,
(39:30):
you can speak French all you want. Um. It is
about that connection with the audience and you can get
the story we didn't. We don't have like monopoly on
weird history stories. There's other podcasts have done the same
story as we've done. We have a sister podcast called
UH Stuff You Miss in History Classes. We had initially fantastic.
We initially were like trying really hard not to cover
anything that they've covered, but then we realized, like it
(39:53):
we it's different, it doesn't matter. It is our perspective,
and it's going even if someone enjoys that show, they
can hear us doing the same episode topic and it
would be a completely different version of it. Even if,
like the facts were all true. It's like a different
version of that story that could probably be valuable or
at least entertaining in a different way or comforting in
a different way. May no one owns this story, and
(40:13):
that's what I'm saying. What we want to make sure
we continue to do is approach everything we do with
that empathy and connectedness with the audience so that people
continue to hang out, you know. Uh yeah cool. Speaking
of the audience, high we were wondering if y'all had
any questions for us. There's a microphone that's going to
be coming around. I'm sure you're used to this by now.
(40:34):
We're recording for virtual so be clear. Okay, please Hi, UM,
that's loud. Don't worry. My name is Colleen, and my
podcast is not almost there. It's not funny, but it's
(40:56):
um kind of like uplifting, motivational inspiration. And there's been
a couple of moments. We had this guest and we
like plan for it, do our research everything like that. UM,
and this one guest whose father had passed away, which
was a pivotal moment in his life, and he's done
countless um interviews about it, spoken about it. But on
(41:17):
our podcast, he got really emotional and it was like
deer in the headlights, like I don't know how to
respond to this emotion right now, and like it was
the worst transition. Like on YouTube we even got this
comment that was like good content, but if you missed
that moment, like right away, the audience like commented on it.
(41:38):
So I don't know if you have any advice on
even in all your prep, like you get to a
moment while you're recording that you're that it gets like
super emotional, Like how do you comfortably live in that
emotional moment and then bring it out to even if
it's not humor, but it's like, uh, to a higher place. Well,
(41:58):
I'm I can give an example, not from this show
at all. We all work on lots of different stuff
for been and in particular and Lauren and I did
a true crime show called Happy Face that was about
the father. It was about the daughter of a infamous
serial killer, and she got very emotional talking about finding
out about her father being this rapist murderer. You know,
(42:19):
secret life kind of guy, and she cried a lot,
and we had to walk the line of like are
we doing service to her story by using these clips
or is it exploitive to her? And she's obviously part
of this, she's an executive producer on the project, so
she was very much open to whatever we wanted to
do and had like cut if she wanted it gone.
She was fine with whatever we wanted to use, but
(42:41):
we had a you know, I think obligation to ourselves
and the listeners to not overplay that hand and to
only use it in a way that served the story
and served the narrative and like the emotion of her
you know, revelation kind of So that makes I think
it's like something you have to kind of like feel
out in the moment men. And it's certainly different for
(43:01):
a conversational show than it might be for a heavy
production that type show. I would I would say, um, Holly,
in terms of nuts and bolts, with those kinds of interviews,
you are, as the interviewer, you are going to find
yourself being the object of stability in this conversation about
(43:23):
these things that have happened, So everything can change and
be perfect and just so in post in the editing room, right.
But when you are with that person in that moment,
one of the most important things is, um, you don't
you shouldn't feel like you have to rush it. Silence
can always be cut right, and you shouldn't feel like, Okay,
(43:46):
we need to wrap it up because often psychologically for people, UM,
when you're remembering something, you are experiencing it again, right,
And so it's incredibly crucial. I would say to first
if you know that kind of stuff is if you're
going to go into those waters Bacon for that interview,
(44:06):
at least um, at least fifty more time than you're planning.
So if it's if you're like we're gonna talk for
an hour, be ready to go for an hour and
a half or two hours. Make sure that you don't
leave them in that moment you know, and and you
can you can stay with them. It's totally fine to say, hey,
do you want to take a break, right, and we'll
(44:28):
you know, we will come back intend um. But when
you say you know, we'll come back, intend what you're
really saying and what they're feeling, even if it's unconscious,
is this person is not going to leave me alone.
They're not going to run away from this. And then
that once you once you kind of unlock that and
you build that level of trust, Um, they are going
(44:49):
to be super super open to talk about other stuff
because they don't want to live in that moment necessarily either,
and you sort of help shepherd them through that. It
does build and the next thing you know, that conversation
ends on like Police Academy for the best Rotten Tomatoes
as spoken. Yeah, we're head. Hi. My name is Amy Watson,
(45:18):
and um, I have a podcast on PTSD that I
started after the pandemic and um, so my podcast is
Wednesdays with Watson, and I started my first season autobiographical
because I have lots of trauma climbed in a closet
and sort of telling my story, right, Um, and I
loved what you just said about not leaving the listener
in a bad place, right, But you can imagine, like
(45:40):
I'm pretty funny in real life, but it's very difficult
to be funny when you're talking, especially when I was
telling my my autobiography, which is lots and lots of trauma. Um,
do you guys find just as valuable? And I think
you hit it and I'm sorry I can't read your
name from here, but but do you find it just
because I'm just there's no way to really inject humor
and a podcast about PTSD. There just isn't. I mean,
(46:02):
there's some ways, but is it just as effective to
just what you just said not leave them in a
bad place? So, like my second season is telling the
stories of other people's trauma and the crooked roads of
hope and pain and how they're not there anymore, right,
and so we leave them with that the hope. But
but the journey, the twenty minute journey there is not fun.
(46:25):
And so one of the things I did, because to
avoid what happened to her is when people come on
and tell their stories, because I'm also a writer, so
I do a pre interview, listen to their story, right,
so people could can swallow it in small parts and
in a little bit of creative way and then interview them. So,
in your opinion, in the heart, which is why I
came in here, is I want them to keep listening
(46:47):
to the next story, the next story, because this is
something people aren't talking about. Is that, in your opinion,
just as effective as being funny? Because I can't be
funny about this. We don't have to a UM, I'm
going to be fully transparent with you, not really joking.
Diana and Eli are in my opinion, a little funnier
than us, but I think I think all all five
(47:08):
of us could agree that. Um. So we're thinking in
terms of palette, right, like a color palette. And the
what's worse than a lack of humor is forced humor.
You know, somebody's talking about like a time they lost
(47:29):
someone in a house fire, and you know, um, if
you have the temerity to try to force a joke
in there, that's that's either monstrous or it's um cartoonishly negligent,
like you're that that is a missing piece. So I
would say, I would say if if humor feels forced,
(47:50):
then that probably is that that is a strong indicator
that it doesn't belong in that part. And and and
an audience feels at um the way that animals can
sense earthquakes before they have it, like they will know
podcast listeners are very intelligent. Well yeah, I mean we're
(48:12):
we're we start, you know, making sure that we are
in a story that we can be funny about to
some degree. So it's it's a little outside our our world.
But um, but I think you know, we've done comedy
for a long time together, and uh, one thing, one
major thing that we learned is that uh, you know,
you're you're walking your audience through it, and comedy is
human and uh and humane, good comedy is and you
(48:36):
can be jarring and shocking and surprising without breaking that
wall of being humane. And um and I think like
will interrupt you know a lot of our heavy moments
with a joke, but we have to find a way
to do that that doesn't negate that moment, that doesn't
undo the importance and the heaviness of what we just
talked about. And I've cut jokes that didn't do that before.
(48:59):
You know, we don't know his nail in the record.
But but when they're when they're right, I think it
really kind of helps your audience kind of walk away
from that moment. It's all my favorite like films and
television shows do that too, or they break up like
heavy stuff with like a little bit of levity. And
I think that's you need that. It's like a palate
cleanser to kind of gets you through to the next thing.
It's true, it does it does help you hang on
(49:21):
to the end, you know what I mean when you're
talking about something so heavy and so real, and of
course there's nothing to joke about, but it's hard to
stay in that space for a really long time. So
finding a way, even if it's not humorous, but I
think you're thinking in the right direction of like finding
a light moment, even if it's not a funny, laugh
out loud moment, just to like, Okay, we are good,
(49:44):
we did that, and now we're back and now we
can go into the rest of it exactly. Yeah, yeah,
h yeah, that yeah, that's what That's what I would say.
I think you guys hit on it. So maybe a
better way to think of this is that comedy or
(50:07):
humor is a genre of connection, right, it is not
the only genre. So if there is some sort of connection,
it is doing the work that comedy would have done.
And all of these are and and I hate to interject,
we've got We've been told by our experts over here,
give a hand for them, please, they're doing Yeah. Uh,
(50:29):
that's Michael, that's Zach, that's Michelle. In the bag, you're
so good a name. Yeah, Well, well we walked on Michelle,
do we have time for one more question? Okay, okay,
Well it's it's all on, Michelle. Now, we believe in you. Hello, Hello,
Heather Parody and I hast a show called Happy Brainy
(50:50):
Face UM and we look at fund mental health Hacks
and Tips, and we're about a hundred episodes in UM
a background as mental health therapy, and so it's been
kind of like beaten into me, like the reverence of
mental health for good reason. But I also have because
other side to me that's like quirky and weird, like
don't leot me up on TikTok like I do skits,
and I like that. So I'm really going to merge
(51:11):
those two together. But also I'm just so afraid to
really lean into that with because it's such a heavy
topic and it's so serious, but to the point of connection.
I feel like that's the draw of comedy, as we
can talk about this stuff, it's it's a little bit
more lighthearted. So this next hundred episodes we do, I
really want to lean more into the funny and make
(51:32):
it more enjoyable. But I'm also just so scared of
like doing saying the wrong thing or whatever, and I
just wanted to know from your expertise, like approaching something
like mental health, what is something that you would advise
me as a creator to be considerate of or to
think of or mindset wise or tactically to do this well. Um,
(51:53):
but also make it fun too, because that's my heart.
I think you want to be obviously sensitive to anyone
that might be going through these things, while not being
so over sensitive that you new her the whole conversation
kind of, you know. I think some people like again,
that's a great example you said about that one episode
where you were so worried about getting it right or
being sensitive to every possible angle. I don't think you
(52:14):
always can. You have to kind of go with your
gut and be yourself and just kind of let the
chips fall where they may. And you know, obviously we're
all thoughtful people and we're not going to try to
say anything that's gonna trigger or offend anybody. But I
do sometimes think we could probably be a little easier
on ourselves and not you know, be so overly yea
worried that we're going to say the wrong thing, because
then you end up saying nothing at all. Yes, that's
(52:35):
very true, and if your guiding star is I I
respect this and I have I have appreciation for what's
going on with the struggle is I think you won't
you won't punch down that way because you're you kind
of picked your hero, right, so you're like, I I
know whose side I'm on. So when I'm making fun,
it's again, it's to help you get through this conversation.
(52:58):
Apply it to yourself in a way that's not scary
and um and like we're in this to get we're
here together. I mean, it's just like you make jokes
at a funeral. Nobody's like, what a jerk, you know
what I mean. Like everyone's like, oh, thank god you
said something like leave some tension, you know what I mean.
And so it really you can find a really I
think as long as you're thinking as you are thinking,
which is I have a lot of respect for this topic,
(53:22):
I think you won't go too far. And the other
thing that you taught me this years ago, uh, is
that it not not to be too afraid to slip up.
And as long as you're open to learn and um,
and that some things are you know, no group of
people is a monolith, right, So there's going to be
different opinions about things, and you just have to keep
(53:44):
listening and adapting. Um and and hopefully you never get
wrong again, but but you may. And that's okay as
long as you know what matters is what you do
with that. Afterwards, I think, yeah, well said, yeah, well,
thank you, thank you so much, thank you to all
of you for being here. Thank you, thank you so much.
And we'll be we'll be hanging for a second after this. Unfortunately,
(54:08):
we do have to wrap because otherwise I owe Michael
and Zach like all the beer. So I have a
wonderful time at podcast movement everyone, and we'll talk to you.
(54:39):
You know what, I gotta be honest listening back to that,
we don't sound half bad, you know what I mean,
Not to break a risk patting ourselves on the back,
but uh, but I like to think that through the
magic podcast editing, Max was nodding along and a couple
of couple of things. Okay, Max, you're that still counts
as a nod. Max is not a no right now,
(55:02):
but that still counts as it not but not I
thought I thought a know was a shake was affirmative.
Well we'll sort that out later. Um. But thanks so
much all for listening to that. I hope that you've
got something out of it, a little bit of a
peak behind the curtain for how we approach the show.
And at the end of the day, I mean, it's
just about, you know, being a human being and approaching
(55:22):
these topics, you know, with kind of empathy and humanity,
and treating these subjects like human beings while also not
being too self serious and as I think hopefully, what
makes the show fun to listen to. And we surely
appreciate all of you listening every week. Absolutely, yeah, big
thanks to the wonderful audience. Big thanks for our colleagues,
(55:42):
of course, big thanks to Max Williams. Folks, if you
like the idea of us going live and and being
on the road or even doing something virtual, you know,
let us know, because we're excited. And Max and Nolan
I have only been working together through the pen emmic
we have. This is true. Max and I specifically have
(56:04):
never met in person, have we? Max only once we
met during the Underwear episode. Oh wait, no, you're right,
You're right. I briefly forgot. But it's kind of weird though, right,
Like I mean, I knew Max before he was our
producer um years ago, you know, through mutual friends and
Alex and whatnot and so, but we hadn't seen each
other for a long time. And it's same with a
(56:25):
lot of our colleagues. That's why this podcast movie was
such a big deal because we actually got to hang
out with folks that we've only seen in little avatar
form where we had formed. But I actually have gotten
to the point where I conflate the two, you know
what I mean, where I'm like, oh no, we totally
see each other all the time. It's the same and
it's also different. I'm rambling, but a point being lovely
(56:47):
to be in person with human beings again. Hope everybody
out there plays smart and safe so we can get
back to doing more of that sooner than later. Well said,
we even might uh might take John at another road.
No alms, We'll see you next time. Fooks. For more
(57:09):
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Hi, how are you.
I hope you're doing well. Hello to all all your
loved winds, all your friends. Hello to the one and
only super producer Max Williams. This is an intro to
something different because we did a live show for the
(00:47):
first time in years. It was so much fun. It
was kind of a live show. Does it count as
a live show? Oh? Yeah, there are people. There were
real life people there, and we were there in person. You,
myself and Eli and Diana from Ridiculous Romance, along with
Lauren Vogelbaum, our dear friend and colleague and host of
the amazing American Shadows on the Grim and Mild Network
(01:10):
of brain Stuff of Savor, along with Annie Reese. And
this is one of our favorite people in general. Who's
a fantastic job of moderating a panel we did about
I believe you came up with his name? Man? What
was it? The the humorists and the heavy Yeah, the
humor and the heavies. So, if you've heard our previous
episode or previous series where we were lucky enough to
(01:32):
have our friends Diane and Eli on the show. Their show,
Ridiculous Romance is delightful, but just like our show, they
run into some pretty heavy subjects. So we went Uh Noel,
You and I and uh Diana and Eli and Lauren
a couple of other folks went to podcast Movement in Nashville, Tennessee,
(01:54):
where we spoke with a crowd about how to how
to do right by these stories, these historical people, places
and events, and how not to diminish them when we
are telling these stories, but how to do it in
an accurate and approachable way. So it isn't as a
what did you call? You had a great phrase in
(02:14):
this one. I think it was like a slog or
a death march or something I can't remember. Man. That's
the thing though, right Ben, Like, I mean, some of
the topics that we discuss inevitably do have some kind
of heavier elements that I wouldn't say we're necessarily a
comedy podcast, you know, where we try to do our
(02:35):
best to approach this stuff with with lightheartedness and kind
of make it listenable and approachable. Um, we're definitely a
history podcast first, but we do have to be careful
not to either not the little or just to kind
of like give a sense of dismissiveness by being too
you know, lighthearted when things maybe you're a little heavy,
but also to balance those things. And I think Diane
(02:56):
and Eli, you know, approach ridiculous romance very similarly. And
we had a really great, very open conversation with a
great Q and A at the end at Podcast Movement,
and we thought it would be great to share with
you as is because we really enjoyed it and we
hope that you do too, And next time Max will
be there. Definitely. Yes, here it is folks, before you
(03:20):
get started, thank you so much for coming to this
panel today. Is everybody having a good time at Podcast Movement?
So far? Has everyone gotten lost? Like in the Jurassic
Park atrium at least once? Cool, twice, three times lost?
Is anybody here actually lost now? Because if so, I
(03:42):
will give directions. That's great at that. Yeah. The panel
that you're supposed to be in is called the Humor
and the Heavy explore serious subjects with finesse and empathy.
That sounds like I'm in the wrong place. You're our ringer,
he needs you? Uh so, Hi, I'm Lauren vog Obama.
(04:02):
I am your friendly neighborhood moderator. Um. The panel that
we are in is the thing that I just said.
Here with me on the stage today we have Ben Boland,
Noel Brown, Eli Banks, and Diana Brown no relation that
I know of, not for friends, um and uh. Yeah.
They are the hosts of Ridiculous History and Ridiculous Romance,
(04:25):
which are two podcasts. So it's part of it. It's
part of a whole ridiculous slate now at heart U
extended extended well good um uh and and and these
two shows explore, try to take bits of history that
are honestly ridiculous, um and and explore the y and
(04:48):
how of of of of what went down um. And
frequently it's very funny and frequently it's incredibly tragic um
often at the same time. UM. And So what they
wanted to talk about today, UM is just just their
their insight into how they handle that carefully and with
human empathy, but also keeping it keeping it light and funny, entertaining. UM.
(05:12):
So uh. I have some questions. Okay, all right, we
go way into it. So y'all do often take a
humorous approach, but um, but you have to acknowledge those
serious uncomfortable realities that are part of the stories that
you're telling. Um, how how would you all describe the
(05:32):
process for how you handle that on air? So I
guess I would. I would kick us off by saying
one of the first things to think about is the
It's almost cliche, but in our opinion, when Nolan and
I first started Ridiculous History, we decided from day one
that the most important part of any show we ever do,
(05:56):
episode or podcast entire is going to be the audience.
And so, you know, we dumb puns are there a plenty,
you know, and and bits and riffing, but ultimately we
want to serve the story and the audience by telling
the truth, even when it might feel uncomfortable. Uh and
(06:18):
and a lot of Honestly, when you think about it,
a lot of comedy exists in this sort of liminal
space between what makes us laugh and what makes us uncomfortable.
Laughter itself is often a reaction to things that people
would rather not acknowledge. It's kind of funny. Actually. Is
one thing you learned being a podcast there is you
(06:39):
can't make everybody happy. Um. So oftentimes we will hedge
a little bit or talk about how a practice of
a certain era. Perhaps it's problematic and wouldn't fly today,
And we literally get kind of dumped on sometimes for
like trying to do that too hard maybe, But I
think we do it just hard enough, and it's important
to us to acknowledged the present and you know, the
(07:02):
norms and what's okay now and why this. I mean,
I'm trying to think of a good example, even like
in the history of underwear for example, like how it's
so based on this like weird patriarchal kind of idea
of beauty and like fashion and it was very like
the opposite of empowering for women. Um, and then it
kind of you know, progressed from there and became like
(07:22):
you know, Calvin Klein underwear models and all that. Oh
and reading historically accurate quotations because people were, you know,
way less diplomatic at times. How about y'all. I know
it's something. One thing that's inituting different between our shows
is we set a cut off historically very very arbitrary. Well,
(07:43):
it wasn't entirely arbitrary. It was based around apartheide. We
had an episode about like a really plucky guerrilla in
the in the Johannesburg Zoo that like chased down a criminal. Um,
and that was the focus of the story. But this
is a great example too. It was all surrounded by apartheid,
which is obviously a historical event that is super tragic
its own form of genocide. You could argue in some ways,
(08:06):
but like we decide, Okay, this is a recent enough
historical event and we really can't go much further back
than this. So we sat there cut off in mid nineties.
But y'all, you don't really have that cut off. I
think it's great because history is obviously being written every day.
But um, with some of the more modern stuff that
you guys do, how do you approach it, you know,
in terms of keeping it light while talking about like
(08:29):
heroin addicts that are murdering each other, like sitting Nancy
for example. It's true, um, And and that's sort of
you know, we've been leaning more historical because it's nice
to have at least the full story of these people's lives.
When we're talking about a romance, you know, we want
to see the context of where they met and kind
of the whole story of how it ended. Um. But
we do get into some more modern stories while trying
(08:49):
to dodge tabloid e stuff. You know, Um, we've done
a couple of celebrities. Go ahead, Oh, I was just
gonna say we were really steering clear of like a
Hollywood insider e new you know, like tabloid e exploitative
kind of feeling of if it's not got something, if
it's just like look at these two weird like it's
(09:10):
kind of it feels bad, you know what I mean.
There's got to be a richness to it, Like, um,
you know, we're not just going to peer inside people's
current lives, you know, and pick them apart and and
tell that story. We won't. We want some sort of
richness out of it. Like when we, for example, did
the Robert Downey Jr. And his wife's story, that was
what we were really talking about is addiction and uh
(09:32):
and and how difficult that is. And we kind of
used that fairly modern, sort of tabloidy kind of story
to examine something I think a little deeper than that, hopefully. Yeah.
I think you guys do do a great job, but yeah,
they're better than us at um uh Eli and Diana
(09:52):
there you're you're talking about these relationships from the past. Um,
are there any examples that you have for us of
of ones that are clearly misunderstood by people in these
are modern times. Well, I'll start with UM one. I
think it's really interesting. We just did recently. That's uh,
(10:13):
this story has really opened up only in the last
couple of years, and that was Winston and Clementine Churchill.
And um, that was full of challenges because Winston Churchill
is a super complicated character. He did a lot of
really great things and a lot of really horrible things,
and um, but only in recent years of biography came
out in or this author you know, went through all
(10:37):
their personal letters and just found out that she was
hugely instrumental in his rise to success and ultimately defeating
the Nazis, which was great. And you know that a
guy took credit for something a woman actually did. Yeah,
I know, you know happen over and over again. It
never happens, but this time it happens weird. So um.
(11:01):
So that was one where you know, the the idea
of Clementine Churchill for so long was that she was
very quiet and kind of just like stood by her
man and I've never heard of her. I'm not joking.
I mean, I didn't see the movie, but I've not
heard of Clementine Church. Yeah, I knew the exact moment. Yeah,
I'm ashamed to do very little before we started researching
and um and kind of learning that romance was something
(11:23):
I don't think people are only beginning to understand it.
So that was something that you know, we were happy
to bring out to people. But then Arita, yeah, definitely
we are. Like our second episode was about woman who
married the Berlin Wall, and so we ended up like
going married married Berlin Wall and so just throwing that
(11:47):
out there. Um, we ended up getting really into objective sexuality,
and we started talking about animalism and in all kinds
of like just it went into a lot of different
kind of rabbit holes. I as you could say, um,
but it was I think was something was very misunderstood
about them because they they as you as you got
more and more into how they feel about it and
(12:09):
how they expressed it and how how it's happening for
them and in real time, and and it was really
kind of profound and it was powerful, and I was like,
I feel this romance happening, even though I can't enter it,
I would I can't enter into that at all myself.
But I was like, I like, I'm I have a
little tear in my eye. I would watch this Pixar movie.
(12:30):
I would I mean, you know, like and I would
play the wall. Who would be the voice of the world?
Can we go Tom Wait Christoph Waltz? Perhaps Christoph he
used to go to German her song I Am Lonely
Please Love Me. Yes. I would watch the movie. Well.
I was really glad we did that episode first or early,
(12:53):
because I think we approached it because it sounded funny,
and that that as we dug into it, I think
we really like just found a lot of empathy for
these people and understanding and it really sort of set
I think us in a direction on the show. It
was like, we need to come at every subject with
a hugely open mind. Um, and sometimes you know your
(13:13):
mind is open and you learned something incredible and you
you have a whole new appreciation, and sometimes you get
like Sit and Nancy. I didn't know anything about them.
I was like, I'm really open to learn about learning
one of these people. And I was injured. That was
a very like, very dark story that was hard to
but I think I think that's how you you do
the line of humor and heavy is sort of remembering
(13:35):
that history. It's very human. Everyone you're you're looking at
is human. And even if there are a thousand years ago,
four thousand years ago, ten years ago, we all have
things that are I mean instincts that are just real.
And if you can tap into that, you can you
can take anything with respect, and you can tell that
story with respect and still have a lot of fun
with it without like punching down. I got it til
(13:58):
this Winton as the wall like, of course, where are planning? Yes,
she might be one of us right now? No, no, no no,
she's amazing. Yes, this is all of us? Are Tilda Wins?
(14:18):
Speaking of those human moments that are so important, how
do you how do you find those and all of
the stories that you pursue. I think that's a that's
a question that applies to any podcast. I'd like to
pull us in the audience because we are recording this live.
This will be on our show later, so you are
(14:40):
already part of the show now, uh. And I think
we we have a lot of people at the movement
today who are themselves podcasters, right, and you run into
those moments where you say, why why am I telling
this story? How do I convey this story differently? You know,
what what is the difference between someone just reading a
(15:03):
timeline that says so and so was born in eighteen
nineteen and then in eighteen thirty four, you know, they
invented um, they invented round what corn? They invented rounds
corn or something like that. And then you go, you
go through a timeline, you kind of lose the soul
(15:24):
of it. Uh, Like Diana said, nobody is no life
is one big game of telephone and long form improv
No one's really sure how it's gonna end. You know,
you just try to sort of yes and your way
through it. And uh, what you find is that if
you really look at these people, not as epic you know,
(15:45):
entreges in a history textbook, what you find is that
they too are rarely convinced that they are doing the
right thing. They have quarrels. You know, Well, it's interesting
to all depends on the source, right, Like you know,
as you said, history is written by the the winners
and all of that, So it certainly can have a
spin to it and a slant to it. And I
think The key too is reading from lots of different sources,
(16:06):
lots of different perspectives, and also having our own perspective.
Because there was a really great talk earlier with Charlemagne
and uh, Jill Scott and our boss Connall and and
Dolly of course, and I think what something Charlottage said
that was totally correct is that podcasts are all about personality.
I think that's sort of like a kind of statement,
but it's about perspective, you know. It's like we anybody
(16:27):
can tell the same story, but it's not gonna be
the same story. It's all about who's telling it and
how it's being told. And not to say that facts
are going to change. What it's about the empathy and
the humanness that you bring to it as an individual
human person with a perspective, and that's how you connect,
you know, with your audience, I think, which is something
I think Eli and Diana do really well. Agreed, well,
thank you, thank you are totally humans. Honestly, we have
(16:51):
a little easier than you guys, because our subject matter
is literally romance, So there is a very human element
like built into every episode, even even when it's not
a romance like the John lorraina Bobbitt story. You know
that there's there's still a human romance of a kind.
It is, right and in the beginning and they when
they met, there was a very brief, beautiful moment where
(17:14):
they were just totally enamored with each other and you know,
went downhill from there, but very brief downhill into a
bush behind. Yeah, that was great. This is the kind
of stuff you can expect on episodes of ridiculous history
and ridiculous Romance. But no, I think again, it's just
(17:35):
it's kind of what you bring to the table. And
I agree that that you guys do a really really
great job of kind of like humanizing and just being
empathetic and just like approaching things with kindness, you know,
and not punching down. There's so many podcasts that are
very inherently negative or mean spirited, and I like some
of those a lot, but that's not what we do.
We try to bring sort of a kindness and a
thoughtfulness but also lightheartedness to some heavy topics. Yeah. Um,
(18:00):
have there been any figures who who you've started looking
into when you start realizing that they've just been completely misportrayed?
D that's largely accurate. Um. Yeah, what a great question,
because there are the distressing slash inspiring answer. You can
(18:23):
decide whether this glass for you is half full or
half empty. To be super cliche about it, is that a,
if not a majority, a surprising and disturbing, disturbingly sizeable
proportion of people of figures throughout history are in some
way misportrayed and their misportrayed often because um, the way
(18:46):
that they are taught to students. You know, if you're
if you're not in grad school for James Joyce, you're
probably not going to hear all the weird stuff James
Joyce did. I mean, I'm gonna keep it kind of
family friendly. But James Joyce was like not a beloved
figure in his you know, his version of cheers, his
(19:06):
his bars that he would hit up when he wasn't
agonizing over Finnigan's wake or something, because he would do
stuff where he had This is true. He had a
tiny pair of women's Uh oh, we did the underwear episode.
We should have mentioned this, I remember that story. It
didn't make it in but um, he had a tiny
pair of women's underwear that he would fit around his
(19:30):
pointer in his middle finger finger skateboard. Yeah, like fingers exactly.
And and so he was like people were when they
saw him, they were instantly tired. Yeah, he would like
walk up and he wouldn't know them, and he would
be like, oh do do do do? Do Do do do?
And people don't want to really know that about the
guy who changed Western literature. I think it makes very
(19:54):
happy to know that about the guy who changed Western literature.
But that's that's again, that's a human moment right now,
especially with some work as heavy and puzzled over as
like some of his stuff. As you know, there's like
literal puzzle box of a of a novel. I was
a weird dude. Yeah, I love that. I'd say our
(20:15):
biggest in that category is probably the Empress all Gablos. Yeah. Yeah,
she was transgender Empress of Rome. And we know that
because the documents of the time about her said she said,
call me the Empress, call me his wife. That is
what I want to be referred to as. And then
for eighteen hundred years, most of the documents said he
(20:39):
when they were talking about her, and um, so that
you know, we of course that's a lot more modern
discourse that we're able to kind of learn and examine that.
But um, but I think it's something that is starting
to change and and has been misrepresented through history. But
we're you know, we can obviously look at it a
different way now, but especially with things like Ancient Rome,
(21:01):
where again the history is written by the winners, like
you have perspectives where it could be like very belittling
to someone like that, and you'll see certain historians that
clearly have a slant and had an issue with this person. Yes,
that was something that was something that really came clear
researching that episode, because it was like, Okay, well at
the time they wrote this, but it could have been
(21:21):
a job they were trying to make them look bad
or something, or they erased from history people that they
were just like, actually, that your punishment. We're just going
to just scratch you out the record for a minute,
like for four to tend to however many years, and
then you have to go back and kind of be like, okay,
So this could be hearsay, it could be gossip. It
could be a story somebody told somebody else because they
(21:41):
wanted to look cool, you know, like, you know, you're
not sure, and it's that's kind of interesting too to
see that pettiness if you know history, Yeah, we've never
stopped the ship. And because it's you know, at least
according to the records we do have, because she was
a terrible person, you know, like murdered a lot of people.
(22:04):
Um So yeah, it's hard to walk that one back,
you know, but but I think you know, one thing
we could take away from that question is something that
applies to us today, which is, um often, the way
history is taught trends toward telling us one thing about
(22:24):
a person, and it may be the most important thing
they've ever done, and it may have fundamentally, you know,
changed our experience living today. But that wasn't the only
thing they did. Like the current Dali Lama true story,
super into watches. He like collects watches. He's he's all
about it, and he doesn't, I guess really talk about
it like watches. I think he's like I do, and
(22:47):
it would be super cool. But but everybody like you're
you're here, you're here today and thank you for being here.
And you you right now are the version of you
that has gone to meet up about podcasts. But you're
also someone's kid. You may have children of your own,
You probably have like a high school friend that thinks
(23:10):
of you as a totally different version of you, and
people throughout history have that too. Maybe not the high
school things, but you know, you get so much of history,
especially like armschair, like pop history is is inherently reductive.
It kind of has to be. It's really impossible or
you know, unless you're Malcolm Gladwell or whoever that guy's
that does the five hour History podcast, Carlin Carlin. Yeah,
(23:32):
I can't damn that, I can't do it. I'm sure
it's great. I'm sure it's for somebody, but it's not
for me, and I'm okay with that. But um, I
think you can handle the short form versions still with
respect and not being so reductive that you're you know,
creating a super one dimensional picture of of of one
(23:53):
of these figures. And this is this is something I
want to shout out with that that I love that
you all do and ridiculous romance. You you do what
I think good storytellers should do, which is you embrace
those tangents. You know, like when people people used to
talk about Nikola Tesla right, and they would say, uh,
(24:15):
you know, they would have like the five to six
talking points and then somebody did the research and said, oh,
actually he got real deep with this pigeon toward the
end of his life and it was like weirdly wholesome.
And then that became one of those points. And I also,
you know, Lauren Vogel Bomb moderating today has a show
that she does, one of her many shows called Savor,
(24:38):
which is ostensibly about food. Uh and catch me if
I missed speaking here, but it's never okay, well, it's
never just about food. I feel like because it goes
into culture, it goes into folk glory, goes into the
sociology of the thing, and if you really want to
understand a person and event a cons sept than, like
(25:01):
Noel said, you need to look at all the differing,
disagreeing sources, and then you need to look at all
the things around it because context is crucial to the plot. Yeah, um,
thank you for the shout out. I want to go
back to this is partially what what what you guys
are talking about about sensitivity, but also partially what um
(25:22):
what y'all were talking about about wanting to avoid being exploitative? Exploitative?
What's just the word? Does anyone hear you? Great? Um,
I was an English manajor um uh about about trying
not to be that thing. Um, but still like, like
(25:42):
you guys do funny podcasts like funny as part of
the sticks, So like, how do you how do you
kind of um have fun without making fun? I like
what Diana said punching down. That's I mean, that's a
huge ruling comedy in general, is that you know how
much power is in the equation. That's who you make
fun of is the one who has all the power
(26:03):
in this situation. And the people who don't, you don't
make fun of them. They got enough to deal with. So, um,
I think that's definitely a uh what's that word? You know? Yeah,
you found it? Well, no, well, I was just gonna
say it's you know, we like our show We're Married
(26:26):
White Cis had a renormative couple. Like, there's a lot
of down to punch and it's but it's also not
difficult to find completely different things to laugh about. Like
we talked about, um, the Lonely Hearts killers. Yeah, right,
these are two people who met in a catalog in
the fifties newspaper ads in the fifties and uh, and
(26:47):
then got together and murdered a bunch of people. And
there's not a lot funny about that. Um, I don't
know what we did. I shouldn't even brought up because
I can't remember what we did find funny about that.
That's the thing, though, You don't have to make it
into a joke or write into a bit it again,
like I was saying, it's all about your perspective and
the humans will let you approach something heavy. You're not
going to tell a doom and gloom I call it
(27:08):
misery porn story. You're gonna find something to just be
yourselves around it. It's really the key, you know. You
don't have to convert it into some kind of like
stand up routine. That's not what we do at all.
We make fun of ourselves exactly the circumstances they're in.
I mean, you know that era is was there was
(27:29):
so much ridiculousness happening, happening around the circumstances that led
to their relationship, that led to what they were doing
to other people in their lives who you know, allowed
them to behave like this, or it's just absurd and
you can kind of laugh at that, I think, or
the joke the joke is also can be what my
reaction to this or how I would how I would
have reacted, and how differently this person did, you know
(27:49):
what I mean. That's the joke becomes like if it
were me, I would have sold him up the you know,
it would have been a totally difference. And then you
have a good time and then let me get back
to the story, which is very tragic, and we're going
back to the story now. I think that's an important
way to connect with your audience too, is because they're
thinking that themselves, and then you're acting as a stand
in for them as well and kind of inserting yourself
(28:10):
into the narrative. And I think that's something that we've
learned and we get the most outreach about. Is like
I just like hanging out and like, you know, you
guys ask the questions that occurred to me as they
occurred to me, And I think that's a real you know,
it's sort of intuitive, but it is something you learned
to kind of lean into over time. You know. Yeah,
that's so great, Yeah, what would you do in that situation?
That's why people, uh, that's why people watch horror films, right,
(28:35):
because there's something too to knowing your own perspective on
there and saying like, yeah, don't go in the cabin,
you know, and you're looking around at other people in
the theater and they're like, please stop talking. You're like,
but yeah, I think that's it. I think that's a
huge point. Um that that I love. I love to
(28:57):
hear in podcast we're just in conversation because really you're
exercising empathy by assuming that perspective. And also just the
last thing is like we are trying to have you
walk away with having learned a thing a little bit
at least, you know, um, something that you can remember,
and whether you've learned from the experiences of others historically,
or it's just a little, you know, thing you can
(29:17):
bring up at parties and tell us weird story about,
you know, the married couple that went on a killing spree. Um,
that's a good, good party fodder. But sure, no, I'm
just saying like, that's a big part of it too.
As we want to make people are walking away having
learned something, having been entertained, and having felt some kind
of connection. I guess so as you're as you're talking
(29:44):
through some of these subjects that that do get into
deep weird places. Has there ever been a moment where
you felt like ethically or morally obligated to tell a
particular part of the story, or to tell a particular
part of it a particular way. Yes. Yeah. You can't
do a heartwarming story about a guerrilla in South Africa
(30:06):
in the ninety nineties and not talk about apartheime. That
was a big deal. You cannot not do. That was
sort of the wake up moment for us. We were like, oh,
we kind of have to figure out how to do
the thing that we're talking about today, because that was
relatively early on in the show's life, and that's when
we realized we had to talk about the surrounding circumstances
of this ultimately heartwarming story. To make the heartwarming bit payoff,
(30:28):
you had to explain the like tragedy surrounding this whole thing.
This guerrilla, by the way, became this rallying figure kind
of around um which people just kind of like almost
this revolutionary figure, you know, during apartheid when all of
this horrible stuff was happening, or if you like, talk
about silly things that in retrospect seems silly from earlier
(30:51):
eras of humanity. You know, you talk about, um, what's
like one of those old songs like the origin of
the song Ring around the Rosy, you know what I mean?
That gets dark pretty quickly, and it's kind of irresponsible,
or at the very least, it's somewhat unethical or misleading
if if you are telling that story and you're not
(31:13):
also saying this might seem cute. See now, but here's
why it happened. Because people in the past, we're not unintelligent.
They were working with what they had, you know, and
you talk about like, um, there's a fantastic podcast called
Sawbones right which talks about what we would call medical quackery, right,
And what really that is is it's not a bunch
(31:34):
of people waking up and going, you know, I'm gonna
get I'm gonna get real weird with it today. I'm
just gonna like, yeah, I'm gonna like prescribe walking wider
shins around an included moon and then uh slapping people
with beats that came from somewhere. You know, Like people
were thinking through a process the best they could, and
(31:57):
that's the empathy we have to have. They did not
have the advantages that people living now have now for sure, well, uh,
one of I'm kind of thinking of two or three
actually this you know, you guys mentioned apartheid, and we
did the story about Seret sit Comma and Ruth Williams,
and that was an interracial couple that they uh married
(32:21):
in what was Beshawana Land at the time, later became Botswana.
Actually because of their marriage and um and apartheid, you know,
forced them, even though it was happening in another place
in South Africa, their influence on England and trade deals
and everything got England to force them at in x
into exile out of their own country. UM. So you know, similarly,
(32:42):
we had to kind of address apartheid in that episode.
That ended up being a really important contextual part of
their story. Um. Other times it's less contextual. But we
did the story of um Bert and Linda Poogash, who,
uh it's an insane story. It's our next episode to
come out. And this guy hired uh some some thugs
(33:04):
to attack this woman who didn't want to date him anymore,
and they threw acid in her face and blinded her.
And when he got out of prison twelve years later,
they got married and we're happily married for the rest
of their life. Um, and it's a whole story, but
within that, he was in Attica Prison during the Attica
Prison riots and it was only very tangentially involved. And
(33:27):
I didn't know a lot about the Attica Prison riots
when I was doing the research, and I learned about
them and said, it's insane that I haven't ever heard
of this. Watched Afternoon as part of your research. I I, well,
we need to because we're gonna do that couple too.
I haven't seen it since I was a kid. But
that was where it wasn't necessarily contextual to a story,
but I was like, I can't not take this opportunity
(33:48):
to make people aware of this thing. So it almost
turned into a ten part series just about that had
but but couldn't walk away without bringing it up. It
just seemed too important. Yeah. I think when we did
um the sixteenth century poets Shah Hussain and Madu Law,
that was definitely one where I was like, Okay, it
(34:08):
feels important to explain not only his his uh, the
sect of religion that he was practicing, not only that,
areas of feelings currently about gay marriage or gay relationships,
and also all the the political like stuff with Kashmir
and the line of control and all this stuff. Because
their relationship was a Hindu and a Muslim living in harmony.
(34:31):
So their relationship is still considered like a symbol of
universal harmony for them and and and true like spiritual connection.
And so some some of them are like, they were
just spiritual, they were not lovers. It was not gay,
you know whatever. And then a lot of people are like,
they know that. I think they were gay. They had
they had a loving gay relationship, you know whatever. So
(34:54):
it was really interesting to dive into that and feel
it really felt important to have all that contact around
their relationship because otherwise it wasn't as powerful. You didn't
see the impact. Why we chose it, you know, it
was like this, this has a lot, you know, it
was deep. So, yeah, we get in those rabbit holes.
Sometimes they're good rabbit holes and sometimes they're not helpful. Yeah,
(35:17):
you find out at the bottom. I think then you're
trapped in a rabbit hole. Yeah, how do you climb out?
I think that's going to be a question at some point. Um.
Has there has there ever been a story that as
you were getting into it, you were like Oh, this
is actually too much and I need to put it
down and walk away. Have you ever walked away from
(35:37):
a story? Uh? Well, yeah, there's a couple that come
to mind. One. Uh. We early on said oh, we
should do Marilyn Monroe story and we started doing some
research on that and we were like, you know what,
this is really difficult and sad story, Like there's not
(35:57):
we we can't have fun with this. We it doesn't
fit our show because it's totally inappropriate to be funny
about much of any of it. So that was one
where we've we may one day tackle it, but I
think so far we've decided it's not it's not right
for our show. Um. And then cha Hussain to mad Hulal.
We actually re recorded that episode. It was it was
(36:18):
like our third episodes kind of yeah, kind of learned
about start and kind of realized you were over. We
were being so reverent and you know, because this was
a totally different culture than ours and we really wanted
to be respectful and stuff, and I think we went
a little too far and it wasn't fun. It was
it was a little too quiet and and and calm,
(36:40):
and it didn't have a lot of energy timelineing. Like
you mentioned earlier, yea very were born. They went to
a thing, they did a stuff and it was over,
you know, and it was like, yeah, this isn't it.
We so we like, let's just empty our minds and
just redo it without any like serious notes. We were
just like, let's just have more fun with it, have
a good time with it, tell this story, keep the aspect,
(37:00):
and and it turned out great. The second time definitely
was much. That's a really good I don't I don't
know if we've walked away from well there was that was.
We also have a full disclosure. We have an amazing
research is just in game who helps us, you know,
do kind of like bullet points and pull from different
sources and helps pick topics. You know, because Benn and
I also do another show called Stuff. They don't want
(37:22):
you to know that we five days a week. Um,
we do two episodes of Ridiculous History every week. So
it's nice to have a little bit of research help.
But we you know, dig in ourselves as well and
contribute and it's sort of a collaborative process. But I
think there were a few that he pulled that we
maybe never did because they there was one that was
about like some German folk tales around Christmas or something
(37:44):
like that. It was so like just grim and dark
and like kind of depressing and like ring around the
posy moment. It really was, And it was like, uh,
I think we were just like, you know, well, let's
just give that one a miss. We I guess you're right.
We did walk away from We did walk away from
Jack the Ripper. Uh, not to be too precious about it.
(38:06):
There's a lot of I mean, there's a lot of
excellent scholarship on this is probably one of the most
well documented serial murders in in in this era. That's
for a different show, though it is for a different show.
And then also you know, it's, um, we didn't want
to be precious about it, but it's kind of callous
(38:26):
to be like, hey, these people's lives were horrible, they
died in horrible ways. What do you do net waca
waca waka. That's terrible, you know, And so we we've
I think over time, uh me and this guy have
developed sort of a spidy sense for that kind of
for that kind of thing, because you know, you you
(38:47):
earn the trust the report of again, the most important
part of the show the person listening, and they're extending
what I would argue as the most valuable currency of
this time, which is time. Right, your personal time in
the world of ubiquitous, never ending information, make it worth
(39:07):
it and if there if you're if someone's trusting us
to UH, to properly convey a story and to travel
along with us for a few minutes, then we don't
want to trick them. That's like hopping into an uber
to go down the street and you're like, holy why
are we going to Montana now? And the double bactor.
That's really totally true what we said earlier about it's fine,
(39:30):
you can speak French all you want. Um. It is
about that connection with the audience and you can get
the story we didn't. We don't have like monopoly on
weird history stories. There's other podcasts have done the same
story as we've done. We have a sister podcast called
UH Stuff You Miss in History Classes. We had initially fantastic.
We initially were like trying really hard not to cover
anything that they've covered, but then we realized, like it
(39:53):
we it's different, it doesn't matter. It is our perspective,
and it's going even if someone enjoys that show, they
can hear us doing the same episode topic and it
would be a completely different version of it. Even if,
like the facts were all true. It's like a different
version of that story that could probably be valuable or
at least entertaining in a different way or comforting in
a different way. May no one owns this story, and
(40:13):
that's what I'm saying. What we want to make sure
we continue to do is approach everything we do with
that empathy and connectedness with the audience so that people
continue to hang out, you know. Uh yeah cool. Speaking
of the audience, high we were wondering if y'all had
any questions for us. There's a microphone that's going to
be coming around. I'm sure you're used to this by now.
(40:34):
We're recording for virtual so be clear. Okay, please Hi, UM,
that's loud. Don't worry. My name is Colleen, and my
podcast is not almost there. It's not funny, but it's
(40:56):
um kind of like uplifting, motivational inspiration. And there's been
a couple of moments. We had this guest and we
like plan for it, do our research everything like that. UM,
and this one guest whose father had passed away, which
was a pivotal moment in his life, and he's done
countless um interviews about it, spoken about it. But on
(41:17):
our podcast, he got really emotional and it was like
deer in the headlights, like I don't know how to
respond to this emotion right now, and like it was
the worst transition. Like on YouTube we even got this
comment that was like good content, but if you missed
that moment, like right away, the audience like commented on it.
(41:38):
So I don't know if you have any advice on
even in all your prep, like you get to a
moment while you're recording that you're that it gets like
super emotional, Like how do you comfortably live in that
emotional moment and then bring it out to even if
it's not humor, but it's like, uh, to a higher place. Well,
(41:58):
I'm I can give an example, not from this show
at all. We all work on lots of different stuff
for been and in particular and Lauren and I did
a true crime show called Happy Face that was about
the father. It was about the daughter of a infamous
serial killer, and she got very emotional talking about finding
out about her father being this rapist murderer. You know,
(42:19):
secret life kind of guy, and she cried a lot,
and we had to walk the line of like are
we doing service to her story by using these clips
or is it exploitive to her? And she's obviously part
of this, she's an executive producer on the project, so
she was very much open to whatever we wanted to
do and had like cut if she wanted it gone.
She was fine with whatever we wanted to use, but
(42:41):
we had a you know, I think obligation to ourselves
and the listeners to not overplay that hand and to
only use it in a way that served the story
and served the narrative and like the emotion of her
you know, revelation kind of So that makes I think
it's like something you have to kind of like feel
out in the moment men. And it's certainly different for
(43:01):
a conversational show than it might be for a heavy
production that type show. I would I would say, um, Holly,
in terms of nuts and bolts, with those kinds of interviews,
you are, as the interviewer, you are going to find
yourself being the object of stability in this conversation about
(43:23):
these things that have happened, So everything can change and
be perfect and just so in post in the editing room, right.
But when you are with that person in that moment,
one of the most important things is, um, you don't
you shouldn't feel like you have to rush it. Silence
can always be cut right, and you shouldn't feel like, Okay,
(43:46):
we need to wrap it up because often psychologically for people, UM,
when you're remembering something, you are experiencing it again, right,
And so it's incredibly crucial. I would say to first
if you know that kind of stuff is if you're
going to go into those waters Bacon for that interview,
(44:06):
at least um, at least fifty more time than you're planning.
So if it's if you're like we're gonna talk for
an hour, be ready to go for an hour and
a half or two hours. Make sure that you don't
leave them in that moment you know, and and you
can you can stay with them. It's totally fine to say, hey,
do you want to take a break, right, and we'll
(44:28):
you know, we will come back intend um. But when
you say you know, we'll come back, intend what you're
really saying and what they're feeling, even if it's unconscious,
is this person is not going to leave me alone.
They're not going to run away from this. And then
that once you once you kind of unlock that and
you build that level of trust, Um, they are going
(44:49):
to be super super open to talk about other stuff
because they don't want to live in that moment necessarily either,
and you sort of help shepherd them through that. It
does build and the next thing you know, that conversation
ends on like Police Academy for the best Rotten Tomatoes
as spoken. Yeah, we're head. Hi. My name is Amy Watson,
(45:18):
and um, I have a podcast on PTSD that I
started after the pandemic and um, so my podcast is
Wednesdays with Watson, and I started my first season autobiographical
because I have lots of trauma climbed in a closet
and sort of telling my story, right, Um, and I
loved what you just said about not leaving the listener
in a bad place, right, But you can imagine, like
(45:40):
I'm pretty funny in real life, but it's very difficult
to be funny when you're talking, especially when I was
telling my my autobiography, which is lots and lots of trauma. Um,
do you guys find just as valuable? And I think
you hit it and I'm sorry I can't read your
name from here, but but do you find it just
because I'm just there's no way to really inject humor
and a podcast about PTSD. There just isn't. I mean,
(46:02):
there's some ways, but is it just as effective to
just what you just said not leave them in a
bad place? So, like my second season is telling the
stories of other people's trauma and the crooked roads of
hope and pain and how they're not there anymore, right,
and so we leave them with that the hope. But
but the journey, the twenty minute journey there is not fun.
(46:25):
And so one of the things I did, because to
avoid what happened to her is when people come on
and tell their stories, because I'm also a writer, so
I do a pre interview, listen to their story, right,
so people could can swallow it in small parts and
in a little bit of creative way and then interview them. So,
in your opinion, in the heart, which is why I
came in here, is I want them to keep listening
(46:47):
to the next story, the next story, because this is
something people aren't talking about. Is that, in your opinion,
just as effective as being funny? Because I can't be
funny about this. We don't have to a UM, I'm
going to be fully transparent with you, not really joking.
Diana and Eli are in my opinion, a little funnier
than us, but I think I think all all five
(47:08):
of us could agree that. Um. So we're thinking in
terms of palette, right, like a color palette. And the
what's worse than a lack of humor is forced humor.
You know, somebody's talking about like a time they lost
(47:29):
someone in a house fire, and you know, um, if
you have the temerity to try to force a joke
in there, that's that's either monstrous or it's um cartoonishly negligent,
like you're that that is a missing piece. So I
would say, I would say if if humor feels forced,
(47:50):
then that probably is that that is a strong indicator
that it doesn't belong in that part. And and and
an audience feels at um the way that animals can
sense earthquakes before they have it, like they will know
podcast listeners are very intelligent. Well yeah, I mean we're
(48:12):
we're we start, you know, making sure that we are
in a story that we can be funny about to
some degree. So it's it's a little outside our our world.
But um, but I think you know, we've done comedy
for a long time together, and uh, one thing, one
major thing that we learned is that uh, you know,
you're you're walking your audience through it, and comedy is
human and uh and humane, good comedy is and you
(48:36):
can be jarring and shocking and surprising without breaking that
wall of being humane. And um and I think like
will interrupt you know a lot of our heavy moments
with a joke, but we have to find a way
to do that that doesn't negate that moment, that doesn't
undo the importance and the heaviness of what we just
talked about. And I've cut jokes that didn't do that before.
(48:59):
You know, we don't know his nail in the record.
But but when they're when they're right, I think it
really kind of helps your audience kind of walk away
from that moment. It's all my favorite like films and
television shows do that too, or they break up like
heavy stuff with like a little bit of levity. And
I think that's you need that. It's like a palate
cleanser to kind of gets you through to the next thing.
It's true, it does it does help you hang on
(49:21):
to the end, you know what I mean when you're
talking about something so heavy and so real, and of
course there's nothing to joke about, but it's hard to
stay in that space for a really long time. So
finding a way, even if it's not humorous, but I
think you're thinking in the right direction of like finding
a light moment, even if it's not a funny, laugh
out loud moment, just to like, Okay, we are good,
(49:44):
we did that, and now we're back and now we
can go into the rest of it exactly. Yeah, yeah,
h yeah, that yeah, that's what That's what I would say.
I think you guys hit on it. So maybe a
better way to think of this is that comedy or
(50:07):
humor is a genre of connection, right, it is not
the only genre. So if there is some sort of connection,
it is doing the work that comedy would have done.
And all of these are and and I hate to interject,
we've got We've been told by our experts over here,
give a hand for them, please, they're doing Yeah. Uh,
(50:29):
that's Michael, that's Zach, that's Michelle. In the bag, you're
so good a name. Yeah, Well, well we walked on Michelle,
do we have time for one more question? Okay, okay,
Well it's it's all on, Michelle. Now, we believe in you. Hello, Hello,
Heather Parody and I hast a show called Happy Brainy
(50:50):
Face UM and we look at fund mental health Hacks
and Tips, and we're about a hundred episodes in UM
a background as mental health therapy, and so it's been
kind of like beaten into me, like the reverence of
mental health for good reason. But I also have because
other side to me that's like quirky and weird, like
don't leot me up on TikTok like I do skits,
and I like that. So I'm really going to merge
(51:11):
those two together. But also I'm just so afraid to
really lean into that with because it's such a heavy
topic and it's so serious, but to the point of connection.
I feel like that's the draw of comedy, as we
can talk about this stuff, it's it's a little bit
more lighthearted. So this next hundred episodes we do, I
really want to lean more into the funny and make
(51:32):
it more enjoyable. But I'm also just so scared of
like doing saying the wrong thing or whatever, and I
just wanted to know from your expertise, like approaching something
like mental health, what is something that you would advise
me as a creator to be considerate of or to
think of or mindset wise or tactically to do this well. Um,
(51:53):
but also make it fun too, because that's my heart.
I think you want to be obviously sensitive to anyone
that might be going through these things, while not being
so over sensitive that you new her the whole conversation
kind of, you know. I think some people like again,
that's a great example you said about that one episode
where you were so worried about getting it right or
being sensitive to every possible angle. I don't think you
(52:14):
always can. You have to kind of go with your
gut and be yourself and just kind of let the
chips fall where they may. And you know, obviously we're
all thoughtful people and we're not going to try to
say anything that's gonna trigger or offend anybody. But I
do sometimes think we could probably be a little easier
on ourselves and not you know, be so overly yea
worried that we're going to say the wrong thing, because
then you end up saying nothing at all. Yes, that's
(52:35):
very true, and if your guiding star is I I
respect this and I have I have appreciation for what's
going on with the struggle is I think you won't
you won't punch down that way because you're you kind
of picked your hero, right, so you're like, I I
know whose side I'm on. So when I'm making fun,
it's again, it's to help you get through this conversation.
(52:58):
Apply it to yourself in a way that's not scary
and um and like we're in this to get we're
here together. I mean, it's just like you make jokes
at a funeral. Nobody's like, what a jerk, you know
what I mean. Like everyone's like, oh, thank god you
said something like leave some tension, you know what I mean.
And so it really you can find a really I
think as long as you're thinking as you are thinking,
which is I have a lot of respect for this topic,
(53:22):
I think you won't go too far. And the other
thing that you taught me this years ago, uh, is
that it not not to be too afraid to slip up.
And as long as you're open to learn and um,
and that some things are you know, no group of
people is a monolith, right, So there's going to be
different opinions about things, and you just have to keep
(53:44):
listening and adapting. Um and and hopefully you never get
wrong again, but but you may. And that's okay as
long as you know what matters is what you do
with that. Afterwards, I think, yeah, well said, yeah, well,
thank you, thank you so much, thank you to all
of you for being here. Thank you, thank you so much.
And we'll be we'll be hanging for a second after this. Unfortunately,
(54:08):
we do have to wrap because otherwise I owe Michael
and Zach like all the beer. So I have a
wonderful time at podcast movement everyone, and we'll talk to you.
(54:39):
You know what, I gotta be honest listening back to that,
we don't sound half bad, you know what I mean,
Not to break a risk patting ourselves on the back,
but uh, but I like to think that through the
magic podcast editing, Max was nodding along and a couple
of couple of things. Okay, Max, you're that still counts
as a nod. Max is not a no right now,
(55:02):
but that still counts as it not but not I
thought I thought a know was a shake was affirmative.
Well we'll sort that out later. Um. But thanks so
much all for listening to that. I hope that you've
got something out of it, a little bit of a
peak behind the curtain for how we approach the show.
And at the end of the day, I mean, it's
just about, you know, being a human being and approaching
(55:22):
these topics, you know, with kind of empathy and humanity,
and treating these subjects like human beings while also not
being too self serious and as I think hopefully, what
makes the show fun to listen to. And we surely
appreciate all of you listening every week. Absolutely, yeah, big
thanks to the wonderful audience. Big thanks for our colleagues,
(55:42):
of course, big thanks to Max Williams. Folks, if you
like the idea of us going live and and being
on the road or even doing something virtual, you know,
let us know, because we're excited. And Max and Nolan
I have only been working together through the pen emmic
we have. This is true. Max and I specifically have
(56:04):
never met in person, have we? Max only once we
met during the Underwear episode. Oh wait, no, you're right,
You're right. I briefly forgot. But it's kind of weird though, right,
Like I mean, I knew Max before he was our
producer um years ago, you know, through mutual friends and
Alex and whatnot and so, but we hadn't seen each
other for a long time. And it's same with a
(56:25):
lot of our colleagues. That's why this podcast movie was
such a big deal because we actually got to hang
out with folks that we've only seen in little avatar
form where we had formed. But I actually have gotten
to the point where I conflate the two, you know
what I mean, where I'm like, oh no, we totally
see each other all the time. It's the same and
it's also different. I'm rambling, but a point being lovely
(56:47):
to be in person with human beings again. Hope everybody
out there plays smart and safe so we can get
back to doing more of that sooner than later. Well said,
we even might uh might take John at another road.
No alms, We'll see you next time. Fooks. For more
(57:09):
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
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Noel Brown
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