October 20, 2023 • 52 mins
Today, scientists are treated with respect (for the most part), but this wasn't always the case. In the first part of this recurring series, Ben, Noel and Casey explore the ridiculous, at-times tragic stories of scientists who were persecuted for their discoveries.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Our super producer, Max Williams is abroad traveling,
having adventures, and that means that we are once again
immensely fortunate to welcome our super guest producer, the Man,
the Myth, the Legend, the returning champ, Casey Pegro.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks for having me back. Guys, I'm loving doing this.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi love say thanks for having me back. Like we're
gonna edit this. Thank you, thanks for having us back. Yeah,
in the chat.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
These episodes don't have any edits. We just we just
go straight to straight to the feed. Yeah, we're live
in studio.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Yeah you know, Okay, you essed, Casey pegram you just
but I think overall we don't have an insane amount
of edits. We're on the on the less editing side
in some podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was actually I was looking at a recent episode
and I was like, you know what, there's less cuts
than there.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Used to be.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Well, that's what happens when you do five of these
things season pros every week. And actually, you know, well,
since we've been doing it in person, more often. There
are almost fewer edits when we're in person. A lot
of the editing stems from the lag and the weirdness
you have to get used to from doing things remotely,
which we are doing today in full disclosure. But we'll
be back to in person later this week. That's correct,
(01:45):
that's true. I am Ben, you are null, and today
we are. Today we're chopping it up. We solved a
lot of stuff off air, a lot of the world's problems,
because we're all about innovation here on Ridiculous History.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
We're a solution oriented podcast, no question about it.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Unfortunately for humans, throughout much of their history, they did
not feel the same way about innovation. So we are
exploring something similar to our ongoing series on inventors who
died by their own hand. Today we're exploring scientists who
figured something amazing out about the world and then we're
(02:25):
horrifically punished for doing so and potentially fell on their
own sword, which is, oh yeah, a.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Noble act in the face of complete embracing of disinformation
and science denial. You know, it's kind of funny that
the idea of innovation in the past, right, you almost
have to get into the mindset of like the medieval man,
you know, the medieval ruler, and it's like, what innovation.
God already did everything. We don't need no stake in innovation.
(02:53):
We got the Bible, we got you know, scripture. We're good, yes,
set for life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
It turns out class systems and socio religious structures were
a bit of a stumbling block or a speed bump
for a lot of people. Even some of the best
scientists in history won what we could call pyrrhic victories.
Want to give a shout out to our sources here.
Let's start with Galileo to Turing spoiler the historical persecution
(03:20):
of scientists. The author there, Olivia Salon, said something that
I think stood out to all of us. She notes,
of course, Galileo was tried and convicted for publishing his
evidence that supported Copernicus's theory that the Earth revolves around
the sun. Because, to your point, nol when he published
(03:40):
this research, the Catholic Church went crazy.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
They said, oh, no, no, no. The way we read
scripture says Earth is in the middle. Earth is the
main character.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And so Galileo was basically sentenced to house arrest for
the rest of his life, and they didn't kill him,
but they destroyed all his stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Ah, that's a bummer.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
That's almost worse, fade, worse than death, to have her
life's work just go up and smoke like that.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You know, Ben, you mentioned stumbling blocks, speed bumps.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I dare say this whole affair is a speed hump,
the dreaded speed hump.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Have you seen those? They're the same color as the road.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
You can't see them on a shadowy kind of fall day,
and you hit them at full speed and you almost
launch yourself like a rocket man.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Those things are dangerous.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I get a little more intimidated, to be honest with you,
when they are garishly painted as though there's some sort
of dangerous warning sign. Sometimes you need it, especially in
small neighborhoods that are technically private property, because some hoa
person will go power mad and all of a sudden
that thing is at a crazy like near ninety degree incline.
(04:48):
You know, they basically put a curb in the road.
Stop doing yourself, Stop doing that. Yeah, no, it's bad news.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We everyone's probably of the scientists persecuted.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We're going to mention today Galileo Galilei.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Banger of a name by the way, it's probably one
of the most familiar one that I was not as
familiar with.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And many of you out there, Oh, and we'll get
to Galileo as well.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
We will, We definitely will. That was just sort of
like a little tease. Al Razi or razz Or al Raizi,
Abu Bakar Mohammed Eban Zakarayah al Razi, also known as
Rozz in Latin, was born in eight fifty four or
circa eight fifty four in what is now Iran and
(05:34):
was an alchemist and philosopher. You know what's funny, We
talk about alchemy and philosophy as sort of being science adjacent.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Right very much. This guy had both of them on lock.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Which was not uncommon, right because back then, if you
were an intellectual of any sort, you were considered to
have a few It's like in Dungeons and Dragons or
a role playing game where you can multi class. Like
you were naturally a philosopher, you would have specialities in
other more applied disciplines. And this guy, I believe, was
(06:10):
considered in his day the greatest doctor, the greatest doctor
in the Islamic world, which for that society meant the
actual greatest doctor ever because everybody else was considered you know,
savages and the idea. It's interesting because to that concept
of alchemy kind of being the predecessor of chemistry and
(06:31):
so on, this guy was an alchemist before he became
a doctor.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Right, Yeah, that's right, But you know alchemy too.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
It is something that now with the benefit of hindsight,
does come off as a bit snake oily, right, Like,
you couldn't really turn lead into gold, but there were
folks who could purport to do that, and there was
sort of a crossover of the supernatural and like almost
like witchcraft. But then there are parts of alchemy that
were kind of basic chemistry.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Kind of it's based around that, right.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
A lot of people discovered made some great breakthroughs and
discoveries in the world of what we call chemistry today.
I think the best way to put it is a
lot of people went out looking to turn led to
gold or to find the philosopher's stoned and ended up
inventing pretty neat pesticides.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Sure he could cut on them, but to your point
that al Razzi did go on to become a true physician,
and he had a pretty inflated sense of himself, not
you know, maybe for good reason, but he you know,
in some of his writings that have been unearthed, he
often compared himself to folks like Socrates and Hippocrates. Socrates,
(07:44):
of course being the father, I guess for the godfather
of philosophy, Apocrates, you know, literally kind of inventing the
medical profession, or the very least the tenants of it,
you know, the Hippocratic oath being such an important thing
to do no harm, and all of that horm as well.
He said it back then, and al Razi wrote about
(08:05):
this stuff in two of his most significant works, one
known as the Katab al Mansouri, which he wrote for
the ruler of what was then called Rey in Persia
again now Iran, and the ruler's name was Montsour iban Ishak.
And this book was translated by Gerard of Cremona in
(08:26):
the twelfth century into Latin, and the Katab al Hawi
was what it was known as, became known more universally
as the Comprehensive Book.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, it's wikipedia in print the opinions of al Razi.
The Katab al Hawe or Comprehensive Book is definitely one
of the more popular the Katab al Montsori, despite being
a distinct book, is still considered a banger. And in
the comprehensive book in Katab Alahawi, we see that al
(08:59):
Razi surveyed all the medicine from all the world that
he knows about. So he looks at the learnings of
Greek physicians, Syrian physicians, early Arabic medicine, and then he
dives into the medical traditions of the Indian subcontinent. And
the whole time he's doing this, just imagine if one
(09:20):
guy was the only editor of Wikipedia. That's what this
book is like. Because he'll say, you know, the Syrians
or the Greeks do blah blah blah, blah blah, and
then in the margins or in the next paragraph he'll
add his and here's what I think, and this is
why this is good or bad. He's got a couple
agendas just spoiler if you're reading it. And then he
(09:43):
has a bunch of smaller things, shorter writings that we
will call treatises. One example that would be the Treatise
on the Smallpox and Measles that goes to Latin, to Greek,
to a lot of other languages. Because surprise, surprise, people
were worried about measles then as now. Thank you to
Britanica dot com. You can find all of this in
(10:05):
their biography of al Rossi.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
He was pretty varied in his in his studies and
in his methodologies, and he was probably, you know, pretty
ahead of his time. And as we know, that often
can rub certain individuals the wrong way, especially when you're
somebody that seems to again have a relatively inflated sense
of himself in terms of the way he carried himself
(10:32):
and wrote his opinions with a sense of finality and
authority that perhaps went counter to some spiritual leaders who
felt that they were the ones who should.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Be imbued with this level of you know, authority. Come
in and enter the chat.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
A particular Muslim priest who I believe is unnamed in
in our historical accounts that we've we've looked into.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, they pulled, uh, they pulled an exhibit on him.
They said, you like prescriptions, dog, I'll give you a prescription.
This Muslim priest, according to the story, ordered our boy
al Rossi to be beaten over the head with his
own manuscript.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Have a taste of your own medicine.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and and not a not a just a get
out of here kids, not back on the head, no,
but apparently beaten repeatedly, so hard with his own manuscript
that it caused him to go blind, after which point
he was no longer a practicing doctor.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
That will teach you that. That is a very sexy account,
that really gives.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
You that martyr umami. You know. I mean again, he
didn't die.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I know you have to die to properly become a martyr,
but losing your eyes that's a sort of semi death,
you know, a small death of a sense at the
very least. But other accounts do indicate that he may
well have gone blind because of cataracts. I personally, I
don't know about you, bet In Casey, but I can't
picture a beating upside the head so bad that it
(12:06):
would make you go blind, but not just like kill you.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It would be possible, but you would be you would
probably be aiming for the eyes right, to damage the
optic of the gougeway.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, But it's it's also I mean, there's so many
holes in this story because was he an inordinately prideful
person or was he just trying to get the word out.
Is he depicted as such because the power structure at
the time, Could you like him?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You know, I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I think it was. I think it was probably not
being beaten over the head with a manuscript, unless you
know he was carving these in stone at that point,
they're just hitting him with rocks. I don't know a
lot of things to think about, but what we do
know is that before this unfortunate blindness, this guy preserved
(13:00):
medical practices from around the world. And that's no small feat.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
No, no, again again, Maybe I'm You're right, Ben.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It's easy to do when you get a whiff of
someone being a little big for their britches. It's like, oh,
do this guy think he is, you know, with his
philosophy and and alchemy and all of that stuff. But yeah,
you're right, the tone of it, the tenor of the
way he's portrayed, could well have a twist on it.
But also it's not out of the question or beyond
(13:29):
the realm of belief that someone like this could be
a bit of a pill.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Sure, we've all met surgeons who knows to say, yeah,
did you know that surgeons are famous among the other
doctors for that kind of behavior.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Well, I just remember in the show Scrubs the surgeons.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Were sort of a particular class of ahole that was
sort of and also in any like you know, general hospital,
the surgeons are always kind of depicted as being like
the frat bros of the crew.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, you get to have you have to have
a certain perspective towards the existence of other human beings
to be able to dig inside them.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Just a classic line from Rushmore, these are are scrubs?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Oh are they are? They?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Apparently we see that this sort of persecution of scientists,
unless we sound in islamophobic, was by no means restricted
to the Islamic world, which for time, of course, was
(14:35):
the forefront of human innovation and learning. Right, There's a
lot of today's technological and scientific breakthroughs can be traced
directly back to the golden age of Islam in that regard.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Yeah, which I guess is why this story was a
little surprising, because I know, we certainly have instances of
you know, Muslim priests and leaders being very heavy handed,
you know, and iron fisted when it comes to keeping
folks in check in terms of.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Whether they follow their orders. Or belief systems or not.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
But I guess I always do think of the Muslim
faith in this part of the world as being a
little more open to innovation and a little more open
to scientific discovery, much more so at least than like say,
the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah, they wouldn't get that rap for like having, you know,
being such a innovative, you know people, if they were
shutting everything down left and right.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
In defense of the Catholics, we'll find that the Protestants
did similar things. Let's go to Michael Servitus. You may
recognize Michael Servatus if well I didn't for a while.
But anyway, this guy, Mike is a also a physician.
He's in Spain and he was born people think around
(15:50):
fifteen eleven in Aragon. And he wasn't just a physician,
you guys. He was also in his heart a religious reform.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Ooh, that's where he went wrong. Yeah, the meds. Yeah,
he after around and found out. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So while he was in the entourage of Emperor Charles
the fifth, he published a pamphlet in fifteen thirty one.
It was an anti Trinitarian pamphlet. Now, a lot of
us probably fell asleep when we heard that. Yeah, where
you can see in the doc that all of us
are looking up anti trinitarian.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Sure, it's the idea.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It's rejecting the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, Father's Son,
Holy Ghost or I think they changed it the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Wait a minute, but that's like the main thing. How
are you going to reject that? Yeah, that was a biggiet.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So Protestants and Catholics are super mad about him doing this.
They're like, this guy doesn't get it, and they hound him,
they persecute him. Remember, these are theocracies such that you know,
legal action can be taken against you for your religious beliefs.
So our boy Mike high tails it to France and Noel.
(17:11):
You know, I love this one. He assumes a new name.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, always fine, Michael de Villanov, which is a great
director as well. Was his name Casey? What's his first name? V?
Casey on the case Casey on the cow. What a
great opportunity for that. I always go to town when
pronouncing that name, Just it gives me the mouth feel
(17:36):
of it is a delight. I gotta ask, though, Ben,
we're we're gonna you know, we're getting we're getting to
the part where he's on the lamb. He's changed his name,
but I'm stuck on this anti trinitarian, Bet. I just
want to get a little clarity from you and what
you guys think, Like why throw that part out? Like,
of all the weird stuff in religion, why is that
the sticking point for this guy? He's like, all the
(17:56):
rest of it's cool, but this trinity, this Holy Trinity,
is bogus.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
He said that he was practicing something called modylistic monarchism.
It's the idea that God is all one thing, and
that you are when you're saying it is three things,
you are somehow erroneous about the nature of Jesus Christ,
(18:21):
who is himself God and not a distinct, separate part.
It's anyway, that's that's the answer for the obscure religious
history episode of Jeopardy that Ken Jennings refuses to do
despite my letters.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I think that was helpful, Ben.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I appreciate that because it's you know again, it's like
I always find it funny when people were religious reformers,
they get hung up on one thing, and you're like,
that's the thing you get hung up on, Like it's
just that there's so many other things. Oh.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
He was also against baptizing infants.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Well, now that I can agree with honestly, Like, even
from an outside perspective who's not a religious person, it does.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Feel like removing the choice. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
In Methodism, you know where where I grew up in,
you don't do that. You confirm it's a choice. You
know that the kids able, obviously with a lot of
prodding from their parents probably and indoctrination from the church.
But to baptize an infant does feel a little bit
like without consent kind of.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's removing the choice. So
I got a juicy quote for you guys when he.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Was asked about this.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The term is pato baptism. Yeah, baptism of infants uncool?
Mike said the following quote it he's an invention of
the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity.
So that's how he wrote about stuff. You can see
why the Catholics and Protestants might think he's going hard
(19:53):
in the paint there.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
What came we into this wilderness to find? I was
about to watch the Witch again?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
This is the way that guy the polemicism or if that's
the word of that guy, that character, you know, you
could see why the church leaders cast him, he and
his family out because he was just really really going
at it hard.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I love how they never explain in The Witch of
the Witch, which is just one of the most phenomenal
horror films that came out recently. I love how they
never explained what their nocturnal disagreement was. You know, they
just know that he was too strict. He was he
was too hardcore.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was like a settlement of the hardcore. And he
has even too hardcore.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
For this, that's right.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
I mean, I think you could sort of glean some
of what his stuff was in that speech that he
makes at the beginning when he's sort of like denouncing
the whatever, the religious leaders. But you're right, Ben, it
doesn't it doesn't necessarily spelled out. What is spelled out, though,
is what our guy did. Michael Servitus when he moved
to France and changed his name to Michelle de Villeneux,
(20:56):
he studied medicine in Paris, specifically at the University of
Paris in fifteen thirty six, and then he went into
his own medical practice where he made some startling discoveries
what I would consider again, not like a student of
medical history per se, but pretty early some of the
stuff that I would think of as more relatively you know,
(21:17):
modern discoveries, not modern, but like things that would require
a bit more no how and technology to really get
into the nuts and bolts of the idea of pulmonary circulation.
You know, what direction does the blood circulate? Does the
blood flow from the body in the body, rather that
it goes from the heart to the lungs and then
back to the heart.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
This was a huge discovery, right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, this was huge because it disproved some things that
ancient Greek physicians were wrong about, and people just sort
of said, well, the Greeks are ancient and they were
really smart, so they're probably right about the blood. The
understanding of the circulatory system would immediately start saving lives, right,
(22:03):
and later other scientists and physicians would add on to
these discoveries. But yeah, I think you're right, Nol. It's
difficult to properly articulate how big Mike's innovations were. And
around the same time, Servatus gets into a conversation that
(22:26):
I don't want to quite call a flame war with
a guy in Geneva named John Calvin, and as their
correspondence continues, they get more and more beefed up with
each other, and Servitus says, I not only denounced the Trinity,
but I also think your doctrine of determinism or predestination
(22:48):
is just for the streets. It's absolute trash. This is
John Calvin of Calvinism.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah right, yeah, this is a big, big performer in
his own right, of course, and that is the kind
of the ten or at least at the center of
what his particular twist on Christianity was this idea that
God has laid out a plan for every action, reaction,
and whatever that will ever take place in the known
(23:14):
universe amongst his creations.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You were born, saved or damned. Right, Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
But even even like your path, right, your your all
the choices you make are not your choices to make.
So this is a big one because it really removes
the idea of free will from the from the proceedings.
And I could see how Servitus would this would be
the kind of thing that that kind of it's on
brand for him to be against this.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Any doctor, right, like the idea of medicine is that
through intervention and through science and practice technique, one can
save people from death. You know, So that's obviously John
Calvin's not vibing with that unless you also that it's
God's plan for you to Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I wonder if Drake is a Calvinist, you know from
that song God's Plan? Is that about Josh Calvin?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I don't know, but I like that.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think that's what that's about, the part about how
he only likes his bed.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And you know why that Sorry, Yeah, she asked me
for love you I told him only partly. I only
love my bed and my mom. I'm sorry. Uh my bed,
I think is the name of his kid to their
levels to it.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I also has he is notoriously has one of the
most expensive beds ever made serious. It's like it's like
covered in like black fur and it's it's insane. I
think it was like literally a three million dollar bed
or something along those listenes.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's so unnecessarily like he Drake showed up in our
I think it was Drake showed up in our episode
on uh sneakers and logo origins because I believe he
owns the most expensive pair of pikes, but they're unwearable
because they're made of gold and precious medals.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh wow, Yeah, I over reestimated a little bit. Four
hundred grand for too much bed.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Still too much.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's a really cool lookod mattress I got spring alone
is pretty dope. It looks like a like an old
like chest or like a suitcase or.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Something brought out my Larry David And like four hundred
grand for a bed too much, too much, too much,
one hundred and eighty maximum.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, we'll do it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Also, they just throw mattresses at us, something that comes
along with being in podcasting. They're always just sending you
mattresses without your consent. Yeah, or like swimming and mattresses.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But speaking of swimming and stuff, this guy, Mike Servitus,
he is now a fish in water with this polemical
religious opinions.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Did he sort of out himself? I guess a little bit,
because he already had to move and change his name.
Now he's getting beefed up again with this Calvin fellow
for a lot of the same. Like, you know, it's
almost like he should have left well enough alone, like
stick to the medicine.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Stuff. He's making innovations leaps and bounds here.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
But instead he's got to start running his mouth about
pre nature whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I get it. You have, you have, you have feelings.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
In fifteen fifty three, he's working in what I think
is pronounced Van Orvin. It looks like Vienna, but it's
not quite. It's a southeastern France. Yeah, maybe we'll get
a little casey on the case here. I would guess Vien,
case on the case, casey on the case Vienne. And yeah,
so he's hanging out there. He publishes anonymously, you know,
to his I guess credit for at least in terms
(26:25):
of like his reading of the room, a religious tract
called the Restitution of Christianity. Only I can restore Christianity,
former Christianity.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
He's doing the chest compressions.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Another big, big dig on Trinitarianism. He hates that he
doesn't like it one bit. And the book has sections
in which he reveals he somehow is weaving in these
medical discoveries as well, which I think is interesting. Again,
not a lot of separation of church and state going
(27:00):
on here.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's kind of like Dave Chappelle, where he will he
will make some really brilliant good points or awesome jokes,
and then he'll be like, and the next fifteen minutes
of me saying this thing, And that's what this book
is kind of like. And I love the you know,
I don't know if we mentioned it yet, but of
course it makes sense that religion and science would coexist
(27:26):
because religion was kind of a technology as well, right,
it was the science. So it was like in the
the minds of people at this time, they weren't as
aware of what we acknowledge as the sometimes conflicting goals
of science and religion. They thought there were two equal
(27:48):
ways of understanding the world that were mutually exclusive.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
That's right, and it's all I've always found it interesting too,
Like throughout my religious upbringing, I've always known some very
very smart people who are devoutly religious and they find
a way to whatever that way might be. It's not
for me to say to allow those things to coexist,
you know, but there was this time where that crossover
(28:14):
just wasn't possible, you know, at least in the minds
of those in power. But so it was very innovative
and very forward thinking for someone like Saravitis to be
able to do that to be able to like occupy
this place of science and religion, have the two things
kind of commingle rather than like cancel each other out.
That that always really fascinates me, and I think it's,
(28:36):
you know, a really interesting thing to consider.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Mike had to be aware of this, do you guys
like how I'm just calling him Mike like out? Yeah,
So Mike was telling us all though, just putting that
out there.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
He's got you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Know, he's got big Reddit energy, right, He's got that
actually ara about him. But anyway, he writes this book,
and he had to know or this tract I should
say this treatise, it's shorter than a book. He had
to be aware of these conflicts that you and I
are talking about, because he did publish this anonymously, and
(29:11):
he clearly was publishing this as a response or a
disc track toward John Calvin's earlier book, The Institution or
Institutes of Christianity, and because you know, being literate was
a bit of rarefied air at this time, and because
(29:32):
these people were talking about the same quite specific subjects.
He gets identified, he gets docked, he gets outed. A
friend of Calvin's says, huh, I'm familiar with the way
this guy writes Johnny C. This guy, Mike Servitus is
the one who wrote this terrible thing. And then he
(29:54):
goes to Yeah, then he goes to the authorities and snitches.
They arrest and they try him for a heresy and
they sentenced him to what nol like, Fine, maybe he's got.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
A little rap on the knuckles or the war.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, yeah, Now a different kind of wood involved in
this prospect. Burn at the stake is what they Yeah,
the big one, the one for witches and the like,
you know, vessels of the devil, the infernal powers. You know,
this is not this is not looking good for our
boy Mike, thankfully though, and I don't I'd love to
(30:32):
hear some more details on what this rollicking escape scene
must have felt like.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But he was able to get out of there, he was,
he escaped, he high tailed it yet again. This guy
is now an international fugitive. So he goes to Naples
and no one is sure why the following things happened.
Even the historians working with the primary source aren't sure
(31:00):
exactly how this went down. But from what we understand,
with a price on his head, under the threat of death,
Mike Servatus decides to go through Geneva on his travels
to Italy, where John Calvin is doing a sermon and
old boy Mike sneaks in. Who knows again, big redded energy.
(31:26):
I picture him like wearing a hood in the back
and he's just waiting for John Calvin to say something
about the Holy Trinity so he can like pop his
hood off, start with a big actually or whatever. Anyway,
he gets recognized at this sermon that he never should
have attended, and he is arrested by the authorities. He
(31:49):
is thrown into prison, and this time he has tried
for heresy in a Protestant court, and noel, given that
the Protestant saw the Catholics as sort of backwards and
to authoritarian, surely the Protestant court had had a different
sentence for our boy Mike.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Nope, oh no, Now, in fact, they even doubled down man.
They condemned him to death by burning at the stake
and used his books for the fire. Evil that's like,
I mean, you know what was it? Galilea just had
his books destroyed and was put under house arrest. This
guy was burned with his own books. I was looking up.
(32:31):
I was trying to find some details about Servitists' previous
skirting of the law escape of death death, and I
couldn't find any details about that. But apparently even though
Calvin did essentially turn the guy in and had him,
you know, condemned to death for heresy, he fell on
(32:53):
the mercy of the court or the judges and asked
that Servetus be killed by the sword instead of by burning,
but he was denied, so he was trying to exercise
a little bit of restraint there. Pretty interesting stuff, especially
considering that, like, this is the guy who's responsible for
(33:15):
the reform kind of church views that Servitus is going
against directly, and this guy is like, I'm gonna have
you dealt with sir.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, it all catches up with him eventually.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it's weird to think that a court, a religious
court especially, will be sitting around and going what is
the most christ Like thing to do in this situation?
But the guy who has harmed nobody, has saved some lives,
but does disagree with us about our religious fan fiction,
So they decided the most christ like thing to do
(33:49):
would be to burn him alive. On October twenty seventh,
fifteen fifty three. As a result, the book that he wrote,
his religious screed with the discovery of pulmonary circulation, it
never got widely circulated, and people didn't know about this
discovery until many years later, centuries later. In fact, when
(34:13):
the book was reprinted in seventeen ninety, someone said, oh
wait a minute, heart to lungs and so on and
so forth. That makes sense. So we don't know how,
you know, I don't want a soapbox or tied to
a stake here too much. But it makes you wonder
(34:34):
how many people actually died as a result of that
death sentence and the suppression of that research over those centuries.
The knowledge of pulmonary circulation could have saved many lives.
So how many folks did they condemned to death when
they burned that one guy alive?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
We're fun at parties.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Let's try this one out for our next subject on
this episode on famous scientists that had their hats handed
to them when they, you know, wouldn't back down on
their scientific discoveries and or believes Gerhardt Domock, I think
that's a d O M A G K. I Also,
when I look at it, I immediately read it as
(35:19):
Gerhart do magic.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I when I look at it, it reminds me of
men use at a Turkish restaurant and I want to
order a domok, you know, like I'll get the domoch
side of you know, and and it, you know, screw
me up with that hot sauce fan. Anyway, Dolma Dolma
is the grape believe, the rice covered in grape leaves.
(35:44):
That's there's good, It's it's a it's a weird egg
roll take for uh sure. So what about this guy?
What about Let's call him.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Gerard Gerhart okay, Gerharts, yes, Gerharts, Yes, yes, he was
born in Germany, in Lagou He's the son of a teacher.
We've got some great sources from a biography from the
Science History Institute, and they write this following little blur.
But I think it's just good to do a quote outright.
(36:11):
Denmock decided early in life to become a physician. His
medical studies at the University of Kiel were interrupted by
his service as a grenadier and medical corpsman corpsmen perhaps
in World War One. He completed his medical degree in
nineteen twenty one and then began an academic career. Pursuing
research and pathology. He adopted a dynamic approach to pathology,
(36:33):
incorporating physiology and chemistry and his work.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
And this is important, Okay, no folly. As we know
at this point, religion and science are increasingly seen as
separate and not necessarily oppositional. This guy wins the Nobel Prize.
I am really excited about Nobel Prizes. I'm just going
to spoil that. You need to know that he's good
at what he does totally, and other people realize that
(37:00):
there's a diamond in the rough here. In nineteen twenty seven,
he gets recruited from the University of Munster by the
pharmaceutical arm of a German conglomerate named ig Farbin Industry,
which is made up of a bevy of other German companies.
The Bear Company at the time they specialized and dies
(37:23):
and Farbin his worth dies and other fine chemicals. So
this happens all the time. Pharmaceutical companies recruit from your
favorite universities, places like Georgia Tech for instance, where I
went to school for a time, and not for pharmaceutical stuff,
if you're listening, dad, So in this setting, he loves this.
(37:46):
He loves being hooked up with big Pharma because they
give him a lot of resources, tools and agencies to
pursue his research. He decides he's going to spend the
rest of his career there. Of course, as we know,
after World War Two, I G. Farbin is broken up
and the specific division that Gerhard worked for.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Becomes the Bear Company once again.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And that's Bear, of course, like aspirin and stuff, right,
like the big, big industry over there in Germany. I
actually did not realize until recently. I think, I think
it there. They've got a lot of presents in Berlin,
They've got a lot of presence, and yeah, I think
that's when I noticed, like.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Oh, okay, that's this is the beer in question.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
So Domac again he gets recruited to start this kind
of special laboratory, uh for pharmaceutical innovations, and he's given
well maybe not given, but he's put in the company
of two very well regarded chemists won by the name
of Fritz Meisch I believe, or mesh And and Joseph Klaer,
and they all banned together. They Wonder twins, it up,
(38:52):
or maybe that's there were only two Wonder Twins, so
this would be more of a Power Rangers kind of
situation under triplets, but the syllable don't work for dealing
with odd numbers, right. But they are combining their powers
of science to test compounds that are connected with synthetic DIES.
And again this does, doesn't this ben kind of seem
(39:13):
like that sort of thing where you're in one industry
and then you realize there's crossover into another. So we've
got this synthetic DIES and we're realizing there actually might
be elements in these compounds, in these that could be
helpful fighting disease.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
We can treat.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Something with this technology that we already have, right, that
we were using for a different purpose, similar to viagra,
that's the original purposes. The original purpose of viagra, or
that's the name brand for the compound was to treat
high blood pressure and chest pain due to heart disease.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
So the two messens was a side effect and the patients,
the patients just kept reporting that they were feeling great.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, after we had a very.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Us bulge, and then that became the feature, not the
bug exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
And so this happens all the time in science. One
of these scientists, our buddy Fritz, had already synthesized something
called atabrine, which was a successful substitute for the anti
malarial substance quinine. It's it's something they were pulling from trees,
(40:24):
and it's not super great for you all the time.
I think it's been used in drinks. I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Tonic water.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Yeah, Quinine is definitely the active ingredient, and tonic water
that makes it taste so despicable, But somehow when you
mix it with like gin, it kind of cuts the bitterness.
It's a weird thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I think I'm sensitive to it or something, because the
side effects of that stuff include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, It
can affect your hearing if you drink too much of it,
which is weird anyway. So there are advantages to having
a substitute for this is the is the main takeaway,
and finding substitutes for natural treatments for bacterial diseases was
(41:06):
a huge priority for the team, not because it would
make the world a better place, but because they could
make a lot of money with it.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Oh, of course, I mean that's the number one priority
of any Conglomo Corporation situation. So in nineteen thirty two,
Domach did make this discovery, as you mentioned, the one
that earned him that Nobel prize whoop whoop in physiology
or medicine. I love that it's an ore like there'd
(41:36):
be one for each perhaps, or there'd be an an there.
But that was in nineteen thirty nine, and that was
because this red dye material that he was experimenting with
was called, by the way, prontosal rubrum. Oh yeah, okay, yeah,
that's the stuff. He spearheaded research. It's involving laboratory animals,
(42:03):
specifically mice and rabbits that would demonstrate that injecting this
substance would prevent them from succumbing to lethal doses of
staphylococcy uh and uh hemolytic streptococci, which were as we know,
like that staphalacoca. I believe is what would be considered
a staff infection, right like in a hospital where when
(42:26):
when you're you know, you can you can have a
injury or a wound that if it's uh, if it
gets you know, dirty or whatever, it can it can
cause a really really bad bout of this.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I believe this would be considered a bacteria. Yeah, can
bacteria that can cause pus formation. It's uh.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
It can also, like you said, it can make skin infections,
bone infections, can lead to pneumonia. It's nasty stuff. So
it's kind of cool to say, oh, look this, this
thing that we were using to turn fabric red is
going to save people's lives. And he found this by
testing mice and he said, Okay, it's very effective in mice,
(43:11):
but will it work in humans? I don't know. And
around the time he's asking himself that his own daughter
becomes incredibly ill with a streptococcal infection on a twist,
and in desperation, he gives her a dose of prontosal.
She recovers completely, and he says, I'm not gonna mention
(43:32):
this for a while. I don't want people to know
that I thought my kid was going to die and
I threw all medical ethics and methodologies out the window.
But in nineteen thirty five he does mention that he
dosed his daughter with prontosal when other clinicians test the
(43:54):
new drug on human patients. And during the years to come,
there was a lot of work done in countries around
the world on this not just this substance, but this
new class of antibacterial compounds, and as a result, now
thousands of derivatives of sulfonalamide have been produced and tested
(44:16):
for their anti bacterial properties. Pron tosal is a derivative
of sulfonylimides.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
You know. It's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
I mean, you know, there were certainly I mean, like
the Nobel Board, you know, and all of that, these
kind of committees that decide who to give these awards to,
but also medical bodies, you know, hospitals and things like that,
prestigious universities that would have overseen regulations I guess surrounding
things like human testing, but it certainly wouldn't be at
(44:54):
the same level of rigor and oversight that we have today. So,
you know, in and now, seeing that he had done this,
while it would be considered controversial, it wasn't like it
was going to be enough to like shut him down
or get him like canceled, you know by the authorities.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Right, Oh yeah, how do we get this far without
using the modern parlance canceled. Here's how he gets canceled though,
because folks, we're telling you an inspiring story. But let's
not forget the theme of today's episode. Scientists who are
persecuted here's what happens to our boy. So everybody agrees
(45:30):
he's onto something. He's done something really smart. However, he
runs a foul of the power structure of the day.
This time it's not a church, it's the Nazi Party
and German governance. Because the Nobel Committee was already beefed
up with Germany, they gave the nineteen thirty five Nobel
(45:54):
Peace Prize to a guide named Karl von Ossietsky, an
outspoken German pass So Germany and the Nazi Party super
mad about that. They're like, no, don't support pacifists. We've
got to get out, We've got to get our what Liebenstrom.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Yeah, yeah, we are warifists. That's definitely a word. No
pacifism for us please, nor for any German citizen. Because
of this beef with the Nobel Committee, German citizens were
prohibited from ever accepting a Nobel prize, and after Domach
did officially accept his, the Gestapo came for him whoops,
(46:34):
and forced under god knows what circumstances him to send
a letter rejecting the prize.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Which is ridiculous. He was eventually able to receive his
prize in nineteen forty seven. Decade later prize right after
the end of World War Two, where you know, a
couple things happened. He by the time he got it,
the Nobel Committee had already redistributed the prize money, so
he just got the metal, which is still I would
(47:03):
say at that point awesome because you're still recognized as
one of the world's best scientists. And I think that's
just really cool. But it's also pretty sad. And for
a long time, these drugs, which we could call soulfa drugs,
were used to treat all sorts of conditions gon rhea,
(47:24):
blood poisoning, gas warfare, meningitis, who name it. But then
penicillin came out during World War two, right.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
It made me think, Ben, you know, this idea of
dies or whatever restretching to die, wasn't iodine for a
long time kind of like largely or primarily used as
a dye or as a coloration. I think red number three,
or the very least that iodine goes into the production
of red number three. So again I'm not like a
super science y minded guy, but the idea of dies
(47:56):
being of use in other ways I think is really
really interesting to me, and it would seem that that's
the case I had dined. Of course, is something you
know if you're infected. I watched the movie Outbreak the
other day. I distinctly remember a part where the suit
gets ripped when they're in the containment zone.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Immediately douses this cut with iodine.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
And iodine is a very I dine pills, you know
in situations of nuclear fallout things like that. It's like,
you know, one of a very old substance that has
been very useful for a lot of things for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
And speaking of.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
A long time, we realized that we were we were
running a little long.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
With this episode.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
We haven't gotten to all the scientists, but we want
to end on our our boy here, the Nobel winning
die King of Germany, Domach because he has a bit
of a happy ending. Yes, he was stiffed for the
Nobel prize, he also paved the way to a better
(48:57):
world with his research. Right after the arrival of Pennasula,
he starts to work on an anti tubercular drug to
replace streptomycin, which has already become increasingly ineffective, and his
work and his team's work later lead to multiple discoveries
in these and related fields he has not burned at
the stake.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
He gets a.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Ton of accolades, all well deserved, honorary doctorates from you
name the university, and then.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
The night of the Order of Merit in nineteen fifteen
zero Japanese.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
Order of Merit of the Rising Sun.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
Oh wow, Grand Cross of the Civil Order of Health
of Spain. Sorry, are just really fancy.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
There's a huge paragraph of them.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
And he dies on April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty four,
but he is recognized for his Nobel Prize NOL. We
had talked off air, we are going to probably return
to talk a little bit more in the future about
Alan Turing, about Galileo and a few more scientists. But
(50:03):
I think here we can we can call it a day.
We've we've established a pretty clear pattern, have we not.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Yeah, Turning may even be worth his own episode. There's
a lot to talk about with them.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And yeah, I think Tony galilethematics, Yeah, yeah, maybe so, Yeah,
for sure, they definitely are.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yes, you know, in a funny way, Turing is almost
feels to me like.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
A modern Galileo in some ways in terms of the
level of innovation that his research produced. But yeah, man,
Thank you, Casey, thanks for hanging with us again for
this uh, for this extended cut.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Thanks for having me back. Yeah it's funny.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Hey, Casey, thank you for listening to my uh, thank
you for listening to my cover wrap saw.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Just for you this morning. It was the delight and thanks.
I think I was a little more delighted than you,
old friend. But uh, and.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Thanks of course to our super producer on the road,
mister Max Williams, also pinch hitting his research associate for
today's episode. Thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quizter, was
talking to him over the weekend.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
We might end up at def Con. I don't know.
In case you guys want to go, do you want
to go to deaf Con? I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Def Con is a hacker convention held in Las Vegas.
Speaker 4 (51:18):
Okay, well, I am going to Las Vegas again in
May for.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
A glass convention with my girlfriend. But I did have
a good time.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
I've been practicing my blackjack on the app, so I
think I'm trying to learn basic strategy.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
No, I'm not. I'm not gonna go quite that far.
Speaker 4 (51:34):
But I have discovered in watching some videos that if
you just memorize the very least basic strategy and play
kind of conservatively over a little bit longer time period
with a good bit of starting seed money, you're probably
gonna end up up, like you know, at least a
couple hundred bucks and just don't win a couple big hands.
Then all of a sudden raise your bet to like
(51:54):
everything you got right. You know, slow and steady wins
the race. And that's what I'm learning.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
With these with these apps, use a different name. Yeah,
it's a tradition. Now it's our little thing.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Uh. And then we also want to think, of course,
Chris rossiotis Eve's Jeffcoats here in Spirits Gables. Yay, check
out this day in history class. Thank you very much
to all the scientists who helped make this podcast possible
in one way or another, primarily by you know, allowing
our ancestors to stay alive.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (52:36):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Our super producer, Max Williams is abroad traveling,
having adventures, and that means that we are once again
immensely fortunate to welcome our super guest producer, the Man,
the Myth, the Legend, the returning champ, Casey Pegro.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks for having me back. Guys, I'm loving doing this.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi love say thanks for having me back. Like we're
gonna edit this. Thank you, thanks for having us back. Yeah,
in the chat.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
These episodes don't have any edits. We just we just
go straight to straight to the feed. Yeah, we're live
in studio.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Yeah you know, Okay, you essed, Casey pegram you just
but I think overall we don't have an insane amount
of edits. We're on the on the less editing side
in some podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was actually I was looking at a recent episode
and I was like, you know what, there's less cuts
than there.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Used to be.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Well, that's what happens when you do five of these
things season pros every week. And actually, you know, well,
since we've been doing it in person, more often. There
are almost fewer edits when we're in person. A lot
of the editing stems from the lag and the weirdness
you have to get used to from doing things remotely,
which we are doing today in full disclosure. But we'll
be back to in person later this week. That's correct,
(01:45):
that's true. I am Ben, you are null, and today
we are. Today we're chopping it up. We solved a
lot of stuff off air, a lot of the world's problems,
because we're all about innovation here on Ridiculous History.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
We're a solution oriented podcast, no question about it.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Unfortunately for humans, throughout much of their history, they did
not feel the same way about innovation. So we are
exploring something similar to our ongoing series on inventors who
died by their own hand. Today we're exploring scientists who
figured something amazing out about the world and then we're
(02:25):
horrifically punished for doing so and potentially fell on their
own sword, which is, oh yeah, a.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Noble act in the face of complete embracing of disinformation
and science denial. You know, it's kind of funny that
the idea of innovation in the past, right, you almost
have to get into the mindset of like the medieval man,
you know, the medieval ruler, and it's like, what innovation.
God already did everything. We don't need no stake in innovation.
(02:53):
We got the Bible, we got you know, scripture. We're good, yes,
set for life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
It turns out class systems and socio religious structures were
a bit of a stumbling block or a speed bump
for a lot of people. Even some of the best
scientists in history won what we could call pyrrhic victories.
Want to give a shout out to our sources here.
Let's start with Galileo to Turing spoiler the historical persecution
(03:20):
of scientists. The author there, Olivia Salon, said something that
I think stood out to all of us. She notes,
of course, Galileo was tried and convicted for publishing his
evidence that supported Copernicus's theory that the Earth revolves around
the sun. Because, to your point, nol when he published
(03:40):
this research, the Catholic Church went crazy.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
They said, oh, no, no, no. The way we read
scripture says Earth is in the middle. Earth is the
main character.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And so Galileo was basically sentenced to house arrest for
the rest of his life, and they didn't kill him,
but they destroyed all his stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Ah, that's a bummer.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
That's almost worse, fade, worse than death, to have her
life's work just go up and smoke like that.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You know, Ben, you mentioned stumbling blocks, speed bumps.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I dare say this whole affair is a speed hump,
the dreaded speed hump.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Have you seen those? They're the same color as the road.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
You can't see them on a shadowy kind of fall day,
and you hit them at full speed and you almost
launch yourself like a rocket man.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Those things are dangerous.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I get a little more intimidated, to be honest with you,
when they are garishly painted as though there's some sort
of dangerous warning sign. Sometimes you need it, especially in
small neighborhoods that are technically private property, because some hoa
person will go power mad and all of a sudden
that thing is at a crazy like near ninety degree incline.
(04:48):
You know, they basically put a curb in the road.
Stop doing yourself, Stop doing that. Yeah, no, it's bad news.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We everyone's probably of the scientists persecuted.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We're going to mention today Galileo Galilei.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Banger of a name by the way, it's probably one
of the most familiar one that I was not as
familiar with.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
And many of you out there, Oh, and we'll get
to Galileo as well.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
We will, We definitely will. That was just sort of
like a little tease. Al Razi or razz Or al Raizi,
Abu Bakar Mohammed Eban Zakarayah al Razi, also known as
Rozz in Latin, was born in eight fifty four or
circa eight fifty four in what is now Iran and
(05:34):
was an alchemist and philosopher. You know what's funny, We
talk about alchemy and philosophy as sort of being science adjacent.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Right very much. This guy had both of them on lock.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Which was not uncommon, right because back then, if you
were an intellectual of any sort, you were considered to
have a few It's like in Dungeons and Dragons or
a role playing game where you can multi class. Like
you were naturally a philosopher, you would have specialities in
other more applied disciplines. And this guy, I believe, was
(06:10):
considered in his day the greatest doctor, the greatest doctor
in the Islamic world, which for that society meant the
actual greatest doctor ever because everybody else was considered you know,
savages and the idea. It's interesting because to that concept
of alchemy kind of being the predecessor of chemistry and
(06:31):
so on, this guy was an alchemist before he became
a doctor.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Right, Yeah, that's right, But you know alchemy too.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
It is something that now with the benefit of hindsight,
does come off as a bit snake oily, right, Like,
you couldn't really turn lead into gold, but there were
folks who could purport to do that, and there was
sort of a crossover of the supernatural and like almost
like witchcraft. But then there are parts of alchemy that
were kind of basic chemistry.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Kind of it's based around that, right.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
A lot of people discovered made some great breakthroughs and
discoveries in the world of what we call chemistry today.
I think the best way to put it is a
lot of people went out looking to turn led to
gold or to find the philosopher's stoned and ended up
inventing pretty neat pesticides.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Sure he could cut on them, but to your point
that al Razzi did go on to become a true physician,
and he had a pretty inflated sense of himself, not
you know, maybe for good reason, but he you know,
in some of his writings that have been unearthed, he
often compared himself to folks like Socrates and Hippocrates. Socrates,
(07:44):
of course being the father, I guess for the godfather
of philosophy, Apocrates, you know, literally kind of inventing the
medical profession, or the very least the tenants of it,
you know, the Hippocratic oath being such an important thing
to do no harm, and all of that horm as well.
He said it back then, and al Razi wrote about
(08:05):
this stuff in two of his most significant works, one
known as the Katab al Mansouri, which he wrote for
the ruler of what was then called Rey in Persia
again now Iran, and the ruler's name was Montsour iban Ishak.
And this book was translated by Gerard of Cremona in
(08:26):
the twelfth century into Latin, and the Katab al Hawi
was what it was known as, became known more universally
as the Comprehensive Book.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, it's wikipedia in print the opinions of al Razi.
The Katab al Hawe or Comprehensive Book is definitely one
of the more popular the Katab al Montsori, despite being
a distinct book, is still considered a banger. And in
the comprehensive book in Katab Alahawi, we see that al
(08:59):
Razi surveyed all the medicine from all the world that
he knows about. So he looks at the learnings of
Greek physicians, Syrian physicians, early Arabic medicine, and then he
dives into the medical traditions of the Indian subcontinent. And
the whole time he's doing this, just imagine if one
(09:20):
guy was the only editor of Wikipedia. That's what this
book is like. Because he'll say, you know, the Syrians
or the Greeks do blah blah blah, blah blah, and
then in the margins or in the next paragraph he'll
add his and here's what I think, and this is
why this is good or bad. He's got a couple
agendas just spoiler if you're reading it. And then he
(09:43):
has a bunch of smaller things, shorter writings that we
will call treatises. One example that would be the Treatise
on the Smallpox and Measles that goes to Latin, to Greek,
to a lot of other languages. Because surprise, surprise, people
were worried about measles then as now. Thank you to
Britanica dot com. You can find all of this in
(10:05):
their biography of al Rossi.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
He was pretty varied in his in his studies and
in his methodologies, and he was probably, you know, pretty
ahead of his time. And as we know, that often
can rub certain individuals the wrong way, especially when you're
somebody that seems to again have a relatively inflated sense
of himself in terms of the way he carried himself
(10:32):
and wrote his opinions with a sense of finality and
authority that perhaps went counter to some spiritual leaders who
felt that they were the ones who should.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Be imbued with this level of you know, authority. Come
in and enter the chat.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
A particular Muslim priest who I believe is unnamed in
in our historical accounts that we've we've looked into.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, they pulled, uh, they pulled an exhibit on him.
They said, you like prescriptions, dog, I'll give you a prescription.
This Muslim priest, according to the story, ordered our boy
al Rossi to be beaten over the head with his
own manuscript.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Have a taste of your own medicine.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, and and not a not a just a get
out of here kids, not back on the head, no,
but apparently beaten repeatedly, so hard with his own manuscript
that it caused him to go blind, after which point
he was no longer a practicing doctor.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
That will teach you that. That is a very sexy account,
that really gives.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
You that martyr umami. You know. I mean again, he
didn't die.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
I know you have to die to properly become a martyr,
but losing your eyes that's a sort of semi death,
you know, a small death of a sense at the
very least. But other accounts do indicate that he may
well have gone blind because of cataracts. I personally, I
don't know about you, bet In Casey, but I can't
picture a beating upside the head so bad that it
(12:06):
would make you go blind, but not just like kill you.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It would be possible, but you would be you would
probably be aiming for the eyes right, to damage the
optic of the gougeway.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, But it's it's also I mean, there's so many
holes in this story because was he an inordinately prideful
person or was he just trying to get the word out.
Is he depicted as such because the power structure at
the time, Could you like him?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You know, I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I think it was. I think it was probably not
being beaten over the head with a manuscript, unless you
know he was carving these in stone at that point,
they're just hitting him with rocks. I don't know a
lot of things to think about, but what we do
know is that before this unfortunate blindness, this guy preserved
(13:00):
medical practices from around the world. And that's no small feat.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
No, no, again again, Maybe I'm You're right, Ben.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It's easy to do when you get a whiff of
someone being a little big for their britches. It's like, oh,
do this guy think he is, you know, with his
philosophy and and alchemy and all of that stuff. But yeah,
you're right, the tone of it, the tenor of the
way he's portrayed, could well have a twist on it.
But also it's not out of the question or beyond
(13:29):
the realm of belief that someone like this could be
a bit of a pill.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Sure, we've all met surgeons who knows to say, yeah,
did you know that surgeons are famous among the other
doctors for that kind of behavior.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Well, I just remember in the show Scrubs the surgeons.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Were sort of a particular class of ahole that was
sort of and also in any like you know, general hospital,
the surgeons are always kind of depicted as being like
the frat bros of the crew.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, you get to have you have to have
a certain perspective towards the existence of other human beings
to be able to dig inside them.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Just a classic line from Rushmore, these are are scrubs?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Oh are they are? They?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Apparently we see that this sort of persecution of scientists,
unless we sound in islamophobic, was by no means restricted
to the Islamic world, which for time, of course, was
(14:35):
the forefront of human innovation and learning. Right, There's a
lot of today's technological and scientific breakthroughs can be traced
directly back to the golden age of Islam in that regard.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
Yeah, which I guess is why this story was a
little surprising, because I know, we certainly have instances of
you know, Muslim priests and leaders being very heavy handed,
you know, and iron fisted when it comes to keeping
folks in check in terms of.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Whether they follow their orders. Or belief systems or not.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
But I guess I always do think of the Muslim
faith in this part of the world as being a
little more open to innovation and a little more open
to scientific discovery, much more so at least than like say,
the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah, they wouldn't get that rap for like having, you know,
being such a innovative, you know people, if they were
shutting everything down left and right.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
In defense of the Catholics, we'll find that the Protestants
did similar things. Let's go to Michael Servitus. You may
recognize Michael Servatus if well I didn't for a while.
But anyway, this guy, Mike is a also a physician.
He's in Spain and he was born people think around
(15:50):
fifteen eleven in Aragon. And he wasn't just a physician,
you guys. He was also in his heart a religious reform.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Ooh, that's where he went wrong. Yeah, the meds. Yeah,
he after around and found out. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So while he was in the entourage of Emperor Charles
the fifth, he published a pamphlet in fifteen thirty one.
It was an anti Trinitarian pamphlet. Now, a lot of
us probably fell asleep when we heard that. Yeah, where
you can see in the doc that all of us
are looking up anti trinitarian.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Sure, it's the idea.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It's rejecting the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, Father's Son,
Holy Ghost or I think they changed it the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Wait a minute, but that's like the main thing. How
are you going to reject that? Yeah, that was a biggiet.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So Protestants and Catholics are super mad about him doing this.
They're like, this guy doesn't get it, and they hound him,
they persecute him. Remember, these are theocracies such that you know,
legal action can be taken against you for your religious beliefs.
So our boy Mike high tails it to France and Noel.
(17:11):
You know, I love this one. He assumes a new name.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, always fine, Michael de Villanov, which is a great
director as well. Was his name Casey? What's his first name? V?
Casey on the case Casey on the cow. What a
great opportunity for that. I always go to town when
pronouncing that name, Just it gives me the mouth feel
(17:36):
of it is a delight. I gotta ask, though, Ben,
we're we're gonna you know, we're getting we're getting to
the part where he's on the lamb. He's changed his name,
but I'm stuck on this anti trinitarian, Bet. I just
want to get a little clarity from you and what
you guys think, Like why throw that part out? Like,
of all the weird stuff in religion, why is that
the sticking point for this guy? He's like, all the
(17:56):
rest of it's cool, but this trinity, this Holy Trinity,
is bogus.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
He said that he was practicing something called modylistic monarchism.
It's the idea that God is all one thing, and
that you are when you're saying it is three things,
you are somehow erroneous about the nature of Jesus Christ,
(18:21):
who is himself God and not a distinct, separate part.
It's anyway, that's that's the answer for the obscure religious
history episode of Jeopardy that Ken Jennings refuses to do
despite my letters.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I think that was helpful, Ben.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I appreciate that because it's you know again, it's like
I always find it funny when people were religious reformers,
they get hung up on one thing, and you're like,
that's the thing you get hung up on, Like it's
just that there's so many other things. Oh.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
He was also against baptizing infants.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
Well, now that I can agree with honestly, Like, even
from an outside perspective who's not a religious person, it does.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Feel like removing the choice. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
In Methodism, you know where where I grew up in,
you don't do that. You confirm it's a choice. You
know that the kids able, obviously with a lot of
prodding from their parents probably and indoctrination from the church.
But to baptize an infant does feel a little bit
like without consent kind of.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's removing the choice. So
I got a juicy quote for you guys when he.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Was asked about this.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
The term is pato baptism. Yeah, baptism of infants uncool?
Mike said the following quote it he's an invention of
the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity.
So that's how he wrote about stuff. You can see
why the Catholics and Protestants might think he's going hard
(19:53):
in the paint there.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
What came we into this wilderness to find? I was
about to watch the Witch again?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
This is the way that guy the polemicism or if that's
the word of that guy, that character, you know, you
could see why the church leaders cast him, he and
his family out because he was just really really going
at it hard.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I love how they never explain in The Witch of
the Witch, which is just one of the most phenomenal
horror films that came out recently. I love how they
never explained what their nocturnal disagreement was. You know, they
just know that he was too strict. He was he
was too hardcore.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
It was like a settlement of the hardcore. And he
has even too hardcore.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
For this, that's right.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
I mean, I think you could sort of glean some
of what his stuff was in that speech that he
makes at the beginning when he's sort of like denouncing
the whatever, the religious leaders. But you're right, Ben, it
doesn't it doesn't necessarily spelled out. What is spelled out, though,
is what our guy did. Michael Servitus when he moved
to France and changed his name to Michelle de Villeneux,
(20:56):
he studied medicine in Paris, specifically at the University of
Paris in fifteen thirty six, and then he went into
his own medical practice where he made some startling discoveries
what I would consider again, not like a student of
medical history per se, but pretty early some of the
stuff that I would think of as more relatively you know,
(21:17):
modern discoveries, not modern, but like things that would require
a bit more no how and technology to really get
into the nuts and bolts of the idea of pulmonary circulation.
You know, what direction does the blood circulate? Does the
blood flow from the body in the body, rather that
it goes from the heart to the lungs and then
back to the heart.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
This was a huge discovery, right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, this was huge because it disproved some things that
ancient Greek physicians were wrong about, and people just sort
of said, well, the Greeks are ancient and they were
really smart, so they're probably right about the blood. The
understanding of the circulatory system would immediately start saving lives, right,
(22:03):
and later other scientists and physicians would add on to
these discoveries. But yeah, I think you're right, Nol. It's
difficult to properly articulate how big Mike's innovations were. And
around the same time, Servatus gets into a conversation that
(22:26):
I don't want to quite call a flame war with
a guy in Geneva named John Calvin, and as their
correspondence continues, they get more and more beefed up with
each other, and Servitus says, I not only denounced the Trinity,
but I also think your doctrine of determinism or predestination
(22:48):
is just for the streets. It's absolute trash. This is
John Calvin of Calvinism.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah right, yeah, this is a big, big performer in
his own right, of course, and that is the kind
of the ten or at least at the center of
what his particular twist on Christianity was this idea that
God has laid out a plan for every action, reaction,
and whatever that will ever take place in the known
(23:14):
universe amongst his creations.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You were born, saved or damned. Right, Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
But even even like your path, right, your your all
the choices you make are not your choices to make.
So this is a big one because it really removes
the idea of free will from the from the proceedings.
And I could see how Servitus would this would be
the kind of thing that that kind of it's on
brand for him to be against this.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Any doctor, right, like the idea of medicine is that
through intervention and through science and practice technique, one can
save people from death. You know, So that's obviously John
Calvin's not vibing with that unless you also that it's
God's plan for you to Uh.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I wonder if Drake is a Calvinist, you know from
that song God's Plan? Is that about Josh Calvin?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I don't know, but I like that.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
I think that's what that's about, the part about how
he only likes his bed.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
And you know why that Sorry, Yeah, she asked me
for love you I told him only partly. I only
love my bed and my mom. I'm sorry. Uh my bed,
I think is the name of his kid to their
levels to it.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I also has he is notoriously has one of the
most expensive beds ever made serious. It's like it's like
covered in like black fur and it's it's insane. I
think it was like literally a three million dollar bed
or something along those listenes.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's so unnecessarily like he Drake showed up in our
I think it was Drake showed up in our episode
on uh sneakers and logo origins because I believe he
owns the most expensive pair of pikes, but they're unwearable
because they're made of gold and precious medals.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Oh wow, Yeah, I over reestimated a little bit. Four
hundred grand for too much bed.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Still too much.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's a really cool lookod mattress I got spring alone
is pretty dope. It looks like a like an old
like chest or like a suitcase or.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Something brought out my Larry David And like four hundred
grand for a bed too much, too much, too much,
one hundred and eighty maximum.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, we'll do it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Also, they just throw mattresses at us, something that comes
along with being in podcasting. They're always just sending you
mattresses without your consent. Yeah, or like swimming and mattresses.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But speaking of swimming and stuff, this guy, Mike Servitus,
he is now a fish in water with this polemical
religious opinions.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Did he sort of out himself? I guess a little bit,
because he already had to move and change his name.
Now he's getting beefed up again with this Calvin fellow
for a lot of the same. Like, you know, it's
almost like he should have left well enough alone, like
stick to the medicine.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Stuff. He's making innovations leaps and bounds here.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
But instead he's got to start running his mouth about
pre nature whatever.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I get it. You have, you have, you have feelings.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
In fifteen fifty three, he's working in what I think
is pronounced Van Orvin. It looks like Vienna, but it's
not quite. It's a southeastern France. Yeah, maybe we'll get
a little casey on the case here. I would guess Vien,
case on the case, casey on the case Vienne. And yeah,
so he's hanging out there. He publishes anonymously, you know,
to his I guess credit for at least in terms
(26:25):
of like his reading of the room, a religious tract
called the Restitution of Christianity. Only I can restore Christianity,
former Christianity.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
He's doing the chest compressions.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Another big, big dig on Trinitarianism. He hates that he
doesn't like it one bit. And the book has sections
in which he reveals he somehow is weaving in these
medical discoveries as well, which I think is interesting. Again,
not a lot of separation of church and state going
(27:00):
on here.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's kind of like Dave Chappelle, where he will he
will make some really brilliant good points or awesome jokes,
and then he'll be like, and the next fifteen minutes
of me saying this thing, And that's what this book
is kind of like. And I love the you know,
I don't know if we mentioned it yet, but of
course it makes sense that religion and science would coexist
(27:26):
because religion was kind of a technology as well, right,
it was the science. So it was like in the
the minds of people at this time, they weren't as
aware of what we acknowledge as the sometimes conflicting goals
of science and religion. They thought there were two equal
(27:48):
ways of understanding the world that were mutually exclusive.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
That's right, and it's all I've always found it interesting too,
Like throughout my religious upbringing, I've always known some very
very smart people who are devoutly religious and they find
a way to whatever that way might be. It's not
for me to say to allow those things to coexist,
you know, but there was this time where that crossover
(28:14):
just wasn't possible, you know, at least in the minds
of those in power. But so it was very innovative
and very forward thinking for someone like Saravitis to be
able to do that to be able to like occupy
this place of science and religion, have the two things
kind of commingle rather than like cancel each other out.
That that always really fascinates me, and I think it's,
(28:36):
you know, a really interesting thing to consider.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Mike had to be aware of this, do you guys
like how I'm just calling him Mike like out? Yeah,
So Mike was telling us all though, just putting that
out there.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
He's got you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Know, he's got big Reddit energy, right, He's got that
actually ara about him. But anyway, he writes this book,
and he had to know or this tract I should
say this treatise, it's shorter than a book. He had
to be aware of these conflicts that you and I
are talking about, because he did publish this anonymously, and
(29:11):
he clearly was publishing this as a response or a
disc track toward John Calvin's earlier book, The Institution or
Institutes of Christianity, and because you know, being literate was
a bit of rarefied air at this time, and because
(29:32):
these people were talking about the same quite specific subjects.
He gets identified, he gets docked, he gets outed. A
friend of Calvin's says, huh, I'm familiar with the way
this guy writes Johnny C. This guy, Mike Servitus is
the one who wrote this terrible thing. And then he
(29:54):
goes to Yeah, then he goes to the authorities and snitches.
They arrest and they try him for a heresy and
they sentenced him to what nol like, Fine, maybe he's got.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
A little rap on the knuckles or the war.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, yeah, Now a different kind of wood involved in
this prospect. Burn at the stake is what they Yeah,
the big one, the one for witches and the like,
you know, vessels of the devil, the infernal powers. You know,
this is not this is not looking good for our
boy Mike, thankfully though, and I don't I'd love to
(30:32):
hear some more details on what this rollicking escape scene
must have felt like.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
But he was able to get out of there, he was,
he escaped, he high tailed it yet again. This guy
is now an international fugitive. So he goes to Naples
and no one is sure why the following things happened.
Even the historians working with the primary source aren't sure
(31:00):
exactly how this went down. But from what we understand,
with a price on his head, under the threat of death,
Mike Servatus decides to go through Geneva on his travels
to Italy, where John Calvin is doing a sermon and
old boy Mike sneaks in. Who knows again, big redded energy.
(31:26):
I picture him like wearing a hood in the back
and he's just waiting for John Calvin to say something
about the Holy Trinity so he can like pop his
hood off, start with a big actually or whatever. Anyway,
he gets recognized at this sermon that he never should
have attended, and he is arrested by the authorities. He
(31:49):
is thrown into prison, and this time he has tried
for heresy in a Protestant court, and noel, given that
the Protestant saw the Catholics as sort of backwards and
to authoritarian, surely the Protestant court had had a different
sentence for our boy Mike.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Nope, oh no, Now, in fact, they even doubled down man.
They condemned him to death by burning at the stake
and used his books for the fire. Evil that's like,
I mean, you know what was it? Galilea just had
his books destroyed and was put under house arrest. This
guy was burned with his own books. I was looking up.
(32:31):
I was trying to find some details about Servitists' previous
skirting of the law escape of death death, and I
couldn't find any details about that. But apparently even though
Calvin did essentially turn the guy in and had him,
you know, condemned to death for heresy, he fell on
(32:53):
the mercy of the court or the judges and asked
that Servetus be killed by the sword instead of by burning,
but he was denied, so he was trying to exercise
a little bit of restraint there. Pretty interesting stuff, especially
considering that, like, this is the guy who's responsible for
(33:15):
the reform kind of church views that Servitus is going
against directly, and this guy is like, I'm gonna have
you dealt with sir.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, it all catches up with him eventually.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it's weird to think that a court, a religious
court especially, will be sitting around and going what is
the most christ Like thing to do in this situation?
But the guy who has harmed nobody, has saved some lives,
but does disagree with us about our religious fan fiction,
So they decided the most christ like thing to do
(33:49):
would be to burn him alive. On October twenty seventh,
fifteen fifty three. As a result, the book that he wrote,
his religious screed with the discovery of pulmonary circulation, it
never got widely circulated, and people didn't know about this
discovery until many years later, centuries later. In fact, when
(34:13):
the book was reprinted in seventeen ninety, someone said, oh
wait a minute, heart to lungs and so on and
so forth. That makes sense. So we don't know how,
you know, I don't want a soapbox or tied to
a stake here too much. But it makes you wonder
(34:34):
how many people actually died as a result of that
death sentence and the suppression of that research over those centuries.
The knowledge of pulmonary circulation could have saved many lives.
So how many folks did they condemned to death when
they burned that one guy alive?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
We're fun at parties.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Let's try this one out for our next subject on
this episode on famous scientists that had their hats handed
to them when they, you know, wouldn't back down on
their scientific discoveries and or believes Gerhardt Domock, I think
that's a d O M A G K. I Also,
when I look at it, I immediately read it as
(35:19):
Gerhart do magic.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I when I look at it, it reminds me of
men use at a Turkish restaurant and I want to
order a domok, you know, like I'll get the domoch
side of you know, and and it, you know, screw
me up with that hot sauce fan. Anyway, Dolma Dolma
is the grape believe, the rice covered in grape leaves.
(35:44):
That's there's good, It's it's a it's a weird egg
roll take for uh sure. So what about this guy?
What about Let's call him.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Gerard Gerhart okay, Gerharts, yes, Gerharts, Yes, yes, he was
born in Germany, in Lagou He's the son of a teacher.
We've got some great sources from a biography from the
Science History Institute, and they write this following little blur.
But I think it's just good to do a quote outright.
(36:11):
Denmock decided early in life to become a physician. His
medical studies at the University of Kiel were interrupted by
his service as a grenadier and medical corpsman corpsmen perhaps
in World War One. He completed his medical degree in
nineteen twenty one and then began an academic career. Pursuing
research and pathology. He adopted a dynamic approach to pathology,
(36:33):
incorporating physiology and chemistry and his work.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
And this is important, Okay, no folly. As we know
at this point, religion and science are increasingly seen as
separate and not necessarily oppositional. This guy wins the Nobel Prize.
I am really excited about Nobel Prizes. I'm just going
to spoil that. You need to know that he's good
at what he does totally, and other people realize that
(37:00):
there's a diamond in the rough here. In nineteen twenty seven,
he gets recruited from the University of Munster by the
pharmaceutical arm of a German conglomerate named ig Farbin Industry,
which is made up of a bevy of other German companies.
The Bear Company at the time they specialized and dies
(37:23):
and Farbin his worth dies and other fine chemicals. So
this happens all the time. Pharmaceutical companies recruit from your
favorite universities, places like Georgia Tech for instance, where I
went to school for a time, and not for pharmaceutical stuff,
if you're listening, dad, So in this setting, he loves this.
(37:46):
He loves being hooked up with big Pharma because they
give him a lot of resources, tools and agencies to
pursue his research. He decides he's going to spend the
rest of his career there. Of course, as we know,
after World War Two, I G. Farbin is broken up
and the specific division that Gerhard worked for.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Becomes the Bear Company once again.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And that's Bear, of course, like aspirin and stuff, right,
like the big, big industry over there in Germany. I
actually did not realize until recently. I think, I think
it there. They've got a lot of presents in Berlin,
They've got a lot of presence, and yeah, I think
that's when I noticed, like.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Oh, okay, that's this is the beer in question.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
So Domac again he gets recruited to start this kind
of special laboratory, uh for pharmaceutical innovations, and he's given
well maybe not given, but he's put in the company
of two very well regarded chemists won by the name
of Fritz Meisch I believe, or mesh And and Joseph Klaer,
and they all banned together. They Wonder twins, it up,
(38:52):
or maybe that's there were only two Wonder Twins, so
this would be more of a Power Rangers kind of
situation under triplets, but the syllable don't work for dealing
with odd numbers, right. But they are combining their powers
of science to test compounds that are connected with synthetic DIES.
And again this does, doesn't this ben kind of seem
(39:13):
like that sort of thing where you're in one industry
and then you realize there's crossover into another. So we've
got this synthetic DIES and we're realizing there actually might
be elements in these compounds, in these that could be
helpful fighting disease.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
We can treat.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Something with this technology that we already have, right, that
we were using for a different purpose, similar to viagra,
that's the original purposes. The original purpose of viagra, or
that's the name brand for the compound was to treat
high blood pressure and chest pain due to heart disease.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
So the two messens was a side effect and the patients,
the patients just kept reporting that they were feeling great.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah, after we had a very.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Us bulge, and then that became the feature, not the
bug exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
And so this happens all the time in science. One
of these scientists, our buddy Fritz, had already synthesized something
called atabrine, which was a successful substitute for the anti
malarial substance quinine. It's it's something they were pulling from trees,
(40:24):
and it's not super great for you all the time.
I think it's been used in drinks. I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Tonic water.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
Yeah, Quinine is definitely the active ingredient, and tonic water
that makes it taste so despicable, But somehow when you
mix it with like gin, it kind of cuts the bitterness.
It's a weird thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I think I'm sensitive to it or something, because the
side effects of that stuff include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, It
can affect your hearing if you drink too much of it,
which is weird anyway. So there are advantages to having
a substitute for this is the is the main takeaway,
and finding substitutes for natural treatments for bacterial diseases was
(41:06):
a huge priority for the team, not because it would
make the world a better place, but because they could
make a lot of money with it.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Oh, of course, I mean that's the number one priority
of any Conglomo Corporation situation. So in nineteen thirty two,
Domach did make this discovery, as you mentioned, the one
that earned him that Nobel prize whoop whoop in physiology
or medicine. I love that it's an ore like there'd
(41:36):
be one for each perhaps, or there'd be an an there.
But that was in nineteen thirty nine, and that was
because this red dye material that he was experimenting with
was called, by the way, prontosal rubrum. Oh yeah, okay, yeah,
that's the stuff. He spearheaded research. It's involving laboratory animals,
(42:03):
specifically mice and rabbits that would demonstrate that injecting this
substance would prevent them from succumbing to lethal doses of
staphylococcy uh and uh hemolytic streptococci, which were as we know,
like that staphalacoca. I believe is what would be considered
a staff infection, right like in a hospital where when
(42:26):
when you're you know, you can you can have a
injury or a wound that if it's uh, if it
gets you know, dirty or whatever, it can it can
cause a really really bad bout of this.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I believe this would be considered a bacteria. Yeah, can
bacteria that can cause pus formation. It's uh.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
It can also, like you said, it can make skin infections,
bone infections, can lead to pneumonia. It's nasty stuff. So
it's kind of cool to say, oh, look this, this
thing that we were using to turn fabric red is
going to save people's lives. And he found this by
testing mice and he said, Okay, it's very effective in mice,
(43:11):
but will it work in humans? I don't know. And
around the time he's asking himself that his own daughter
becomes incredibly ill with a streptococcal infection on a twist,
and in desperation, he gives her a dose of prontosal.
She recovers completely, and he says, I'm not gonna mention
(43:32):
this for a while. I don't want people to know
that I thought my kid was going to die and
I threw all medical ethics and methodologies out the window.
But in nineteen thirty five he does mention that he
dosed his daughter with prontosal when other clinicians test the
(43:54):
new drug on human patients. And during the years to come,
there was a lot of work done in countries around
the world on this not just this substance, but this
new class of antibacterial compounds, and as a result, now
thousands of derivatives of sulfonalamide have been produced and tested
(44:16):
for their anti bacterial properties. Pron tosal is a derivative
of sulfonylimides.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
You know. It's interesting too.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
I mean, you know, there were certainly I mean, like
the Nobel Board, you know, and all of that, these
kind of committees that decide who to give these awards to,
but also medical bodies, you know, hospitals and things like that,
prestigious universities that would have overseen regulations I guess surrounding
things like human testing, but it certainly wouldn't be at
(44:54):
the same level of rigor and oversight that we have today. So,
you know, in and now, seeing that he had done this,
while it would be considered controversial, it wasn't like it
was going to be enough to like shut him down
or get him like canceled, you know by the authorities.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Right, Oh yeah, how do we get this far without
using the modern parlance canceled. Here's how he gets canceled though,
because folks, we're telling you an inspiring story. But let's
not forget the theme of today's episode. Scientists who are
persecuted here's what happens to our boy. So everybody agrees
(45:30):
he's onto something. He's done something really smart. However, he
runs a foul of the power structure of the day.
This time it's not a church, it's the Nazi Party
and German governance. Because the Nobel Committee was already beefed
up with Germany, they gave the nineteen thirty five Nobel
(45:54):
Peace Prize to a guide named Karl von Ossietsky, an
outspoken German pass So Germany and the Nazi Party super
mad about that. They're like, no, don't support pacifists. We've
got to get out, We've got to get our what Liebenstrom.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Yeah, yeah, we are warifists. That's definitely a word. No
pacifism for us please, nor for any German citizen. Because
of this beef with the Nobel Committee, German citizens were
prohibited from ever accepting a Nobel prize, and after Domach
did officially accept his, the Gestapo came for him whoops,
(46:34):
and forced under god knows what circumstances him to send
a letter rejecting the prize.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Which is ridiculous. He was eventually able to receive his
prize in nineteen forty seven. Decade later prize right after
the end of World War Two, where you know, a
couple things happened. He by the time he got it,
the Nobel Committee had already redistributed the prize money, so
he just got the metal, which is still I would
(47:03):
say at that point awesome because you're still recognized as
one of the world's best scientists. And I think that's
just really cool. But it's also pretty sad. And for
a long time, these drugs, which we could call soulfa drugs,
were used to treat all sorts of conditions gon rhea,
(47:24):
blood poisoning, gas warfare, meningitis, who name it. But then
penicillin came out during World War two, right.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
It made me think, Ben, you know, this idea of
dies or whatever restretching to die, wasn't iodine for a
long time kind of like largely or primarily used as
a dye or as a coloration. I think red number three,
or the very least that iodine goes into the production
of red number three. So again I'm not like a
super science y minded guy, but the idea of dies
(47:56):
being of use in other ways I think is really
really interesting to me, and it would seem that that's
the case I had dined. Of course, is something you
know if you're infected. I watched the movie Outbreak the
other day. I distinctly remember a part where the suit
gets ripped when they're in the containment zone.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
Immediately douses this cut with iodine.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
And iodine is a very I dine pills, you know
in situations of nuclear fallout things like that. It's like,
you know, one of a very old substance that has
been very useful for a lot of things for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
And speaking of.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
A long time, we realized that we were we were
running a little long.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
With this episode.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
We haven't gotten to all the scientists, but we want
to end on our our boy here, the Nobel winning
die King of Germany, Domach because he has a bit
of a happy ending. Yes, he was stiffed for the
Nobel prize, he also paved the way to a better
(48:57):
world with his research. Right after the arrival of Pennasula,
he starts to work on an anti tubercular drug to
replace streptomycin, which has already become increasingly ineffective, and his
work and his team's work later lead to multiple discoveries
in these and related fields he has not burned at
the stake.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
He gets a.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Ton of accolades, all well deserved, honorary doctorates from you
name the university, and then.
Speaker 4 (49:27):
The night of the Order of Merit in nineteen fifteen
zero Japanese.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
Order of Merit of the Rising Sun.
Speaker 4 (49:33):
Oh wow, Grand Cross of the Civil Order of Health
of Spain. Sorry, are just really fancy.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
There's a huge paragraph of them.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
And he dies on April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty four,
but he is recognized for his Nobel Prize NOL. We
had talked off air, we are going to probably return
to talk a little bit more in the future about
Alan Turing, about Galileo and a few more scientists. But
(50:03):
I think here we can we can call it a day.
We've we've established a pretty clear pattern, have we not.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Yeah, Turning may even be worth his own episode. There's
a lot to talk about with them.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
And yeah, I think Tony galilethematics, Yeah, yeah, maybe so, Yeah,
for sure, they definitely are.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yes, you know, in a funny way, Turing is almost
feels to me like.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
A modern Galileo in some ways in terms of the
level of innovation that his research produced. But yeah, man,
Thank you, Casey, thanks for hanging with us again for
this uh, for this extended cut.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Thanks for having me back. Yeah it's funny.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Hey, Casey, thank you for listening to my uh, thank
you for listening to my cover wrap saw.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Just for you this morning. It was the delight and thanks.
I think I was a little more delighted than you,
old friend. But uh, and.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Thanks of course to our super producer on the road,
mister Max Williams, also pinch hitting his research associate for
today's episode. Thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quizter, was
talking to him over the weekend.
Speaker 3 (51:08):
We might end up at def Con. I don't know.
In case you guys want to go, do you want
to go to deaf Con? I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Def Con is a hacker convention held in Las Vegas.
Speaker 4 (51:18):
Okay, well, I am going to Las Vegas again in
May for.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
A glass convention with my girlfriend. But I did have
a good time.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
I've been practicing my blackjack on the app, so I
think I'm trying to learn basic strategy.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
No, I'm not. I'm not gonna go quite that far.
Speaker 4 (51:34):
But I have discovered in watching some videos that if
you just memorize the very least basic strategy and play
kind of conservatively over a little bit longer time period
with a good bit of starting seed money, you're probably
gonna end up up, like you know, at least a
couple hundred bucks and just don't win a couple big hands.
Then all of a sudden raise your bet to like
(51:54):
everything you got right. You know, slow and steady wins
the race. And that's what I'm learning.
Speaker 3 (51:58):
With these with these apps, use a different name. Yeah,
it's a tradition. Now it's our little thing.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Uh. And then we also want to think, of course,
Chris rossiotis Eve's Jeffcoats here in Spirits Gables. Yay, check
out this day in history class. Thank you very much
to all the scientists who helped make this podcast possible
in one way or another, primarily by you know, allowing
our ancestors to stay alive.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (52:36):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com