July 26, 2022 • 48 mins
Did you know Abraham Lincoln was an infamous, trash-talking wrestler? Ronald Reagan spent his younger years saving people from drowning (and throwing rocks at them) as a lifeguard. And before Norma Jean became the iconic Marilyn Monroe, she built drones during World War II. In today's episode, the guys explore the little-known, surprising careers of some of America's most notable historical figures.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. Let's give it up for
the one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. Hooray, hooray.
I love the energy here on a wonderful summer Monday morning.
Uh they called me Ben. Uh No. I don't know
(00:49):
about you, but one of the questions that I get
asked so often when I'm traveling around, when I'm speaking
to groups is how did you end up becoming a podcaster?
And I know about you, man, but I've been doing
this long enough that when I'm being honest with people,
I just sort of got into it. I just was
in the right place at the right time. I just
(01:12):
kind of happening just one day. It's kind of started
talking and then I just never stopped, and eventually I
just put a mic in front of me and other
people to kind of talk with uh. And it became
a weird little career. You know. Um, that's not true.
It's an oversimplification at best. Now. I mean, like, you know,
my background was in your backgrounds obviously, and lots of
(01:33):
things including writing and and theater and performance and all that.
But it's just I think we both found our way
through various circuitous paths to this podcast life. Um, but
it's you know, I think sometimes it's easy to sell
yourself short and be like, oh, I just stumbled my
way into it. But little choices that we've made throughout
the years I think have led to the uh, the
(01:54):
natural results of being podcasters. But lucky to have been
able to make a go of it. It doesn't it
seems like it's a thing that we can depend on,
I suppose. So thanks to that. Thanks to you all,
because you're you're really our bosses. I U. It's funny
you mentioned this because it occurred to me. Oh, we
were researching today's episode, which is a fun when it
(02:17):
occurred to me that now it's quite possible that there
are children, maybe in the audience today who think I
want to be a podcaster when I grow up, you know.
And also, kids, you don't have to wait until you
grow up. You can you can start your own show
when whenever you would like. We'd love to hear about it.
(02:37):
But this is kind of an entry point for us
because if you ask many, many people, then you will
find that most people are happy with what they're doing right,
whether it's a career, um, whether it's their romantic or
social situation, they're often happy. But they didn't picked it
(03:00):
back in the early days. You know, It's it's pretty
rare for someone to say, yes, I am the world's
premier hang glider and I knew I wanted to be
the world's best hang glider guy, lady person entity. Uh
since I was a wee tyke and saw my first
paper airplane. That's really rare, right, Like, do you know
(03:24):
anybody who you know, since they were six years old
said I want to be uh shoemaker? No, I mean, well,
you know Daniel Daniel day Lewis sort of pivoted from
acting to shoemaking, which I thought was pretty cool. Um. Yeah,
it's definitely rare, but man, when it happens, it clicks
like that. I'm always really jealous of those people with
(03:44):
that level of like forethought, um, because you know, I've
done everything from you know, working music stores too, like
I were. I think my first taste of performance, I
guess was playing in bands rock bands, but then I
also worked at a science center where I did like
science kind of shows, for kids, which is the closest
thing to podcasting. Well, it's not sure that I did
like public radio stuff. My point is this, you think
(04:05):
about an Abraham Lincoln, you think about him, you know,
being the president, the guy on the five, you know,
the guy with the stovepipe hat, the guy that you know,
in his own way, was very very instrumental in liberating
uh slaves us exactly correct. Yeah, but you don't necessarily
think of a well what about before that? You think
(04:25):
he's kind of popped out fully formed as this like
cartoon president, But he had some trials and tribulations and
things that that led him to that you know, final
result of of being what he ultimately became. And it's
not what you think, As is the case for all
the others that we're gonna talk through today, We've got
a handful. It's kind of a fun grab bag episode
about surprising former careers and rather than tease all of them,
(04:47):
let's just dive right into Lincoln. What do you said? Yeah,
let's do it, and we hope this is inspiring. We also, uh,
we might make this a series. We're on the fence.
We just found so much style here. Yeah, here are
a few so Lincoln is now known, as he said, Noel,
as a president of the United States. That's one of
the that's one of his big wins in history. If
(05:09):
you ask the average person to name presidents throughout history,
Lincoln's name will inevitably come up, often right after whomever
the current president is. Everybody kind of knows about him.
He's also well known outside of the US, And of
course people don't talk about Lincoln without talking about the
(05:31):
Civil War and his assassination at the hands of John
Wilkes booth right, who said thus to all tyrants. But
back in the day, when he was just a young
string being, he was known less his presidential material and
more as a professional wrestler, true story, that's his background. Man,
(05:57):
he's it's all drink of water. That guy would isn't
typically what you would associate with a wrestler. But think
about that reach, right, and those and those those those
meat hooks, those bear claws. He could slap a man
senseless with those hams. He's got the reach for sure.
And you know, it's common for people in high levels
(06:18):
of political power, at least in democracies, to have varied careers.
There's a great study I wanted to find it. I'll
have to look for this after we record. There's this
great study about the proportion of backgrounds for leaders in
different countries. Like a lot of political leaders in the
government of China came from an engineering background. A lot
(06:42):
of political leaders in the US come from a illegal background. Right,
they are attorneys where they have clerked somewhere. He was
kind of a country boy, wasn't he, Like, I mean,
he has really kind of assault of the earth, you know,
lived in a maybe I'll well, there was the there
was that the Titstione or Lincoln Log cabin. Right, he
did live in two somewhat rustic surroundings, and I'm not mistaken. Yeah,
(07:06):
he didn't have the best childhood. He moved around various
parts of the U. S heartland from uh he was
born in Kentucky, and he moved to Indiana and until Illinois,
and his his mom passed away when he was nine.
It was rough, but he he succeeded despite the adversity
to become a super super like super good wrestler. And
(07:31):
this is real wrestling. They're actually graspling sort of what
you might consider like Olympic style Greco Roman wrestling. Where
you're like kind of on the ground. Paul pretzeled up
with Era with your opponents. Yeah, and this we should say.
Other presidents did have careers that might surprise you. James
Garfield taught school, Rover Cleveland was a sheriff. Herbert Hoover
(07:55):
was an engineer. But we chose Lincoln because of the wrestling.
So what you would basically do with this This isn't like, um,
this isn't like the high production value wrestling that you
see on pay per view. It's not like the Undertaker
comes in with a song and all these props and stuff. No,
these this wrestling is when two guys enter the ring,
(08:16):
they lock arms, they get the call to go, and
they just try to throw the other guy to the ground.
And Lincoln's record is astonishing three wins, he lost once.
Who was that guy? Do we know? Who was that guy? What?
We we didn't know until we got ready for this episode.
(08:39):
On April twenty second two, future President Abraham Lincoln got
his key star handed to him. He was thrown down
twice in a row by a guy named Lorenzo dow
Thompson hank to his friends, but every other time Lincoln
like dominated you know, it's funny. I actually was hanging
out with with day, my my girlfriend, and and my
(09:02):
kid last night, and I don't remember how it came up,
but I decided to like pull up like wrestling trash
talk videos like compilations, because man, that is some fun
theatrical shenanigans like the Rock for example, he you know, he,
I think he popularized calling people jabronies, you know, and
and I believe Candy asked things like that. But he
(09:24):
does this weird thing where he does he asks if
people can smell la la la, what the rock is cooking?
I don't understand what that's a reference to. Is it?
Is it a crack thing cooking rocks? He what is
he cooking? And why? Why does he want able to
smell it? It's you know, don't don't break your heart
trying to overthink the mythology. That's what that's. That's like
(09:45):
what I found out the Undertaker didn't have superpowers. It's
another confusing one. Austin three sixteen. There isn't that, But
isn't there not an Austin? Like no, sorry, of course,
the there's no book of Austin. It's yeah, and what
(10:06):
is that we know we can find uh it's it's
supposed to be a flip of the chapter of the
verse that says, for God so loved the world that
he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That's the
King's James version. And I never understood the Austin three
(10:27):
sixteen part. But people trying to appeal to Christians? Is
that the deal like to the to the I don't know.
I feel like it's more something the fans started, not him.
So yeah, I don't get it either. But okay, here
we go. Okay, let's hear it. Okay, I I found it.
So I'm not an expert on wrestling, so I was
(10:49):
looking this up. Apparently it dates back to UH nine
six King of the Ring event where Austin took the
win by fighting a guy named Jake the Snake Roberts,
who at the time was born again Christian and so
he uh so, when Austin won, he mocked roberts newfound
(11:12):
spiritual beliefs and then said, basically, I guess he said
more like Austin three sixteen, and the crowd went wild.
Oh man, and I would like to submit an interpretive
reading of the passage with a little twist for God
so loved the world that he gave his only son
that whoever believes in him should not perish in the
(11:35):
seal right now, And that's not enough. Feat. I don't
know how big an octagon ring is, but you get
the idea, you get the sentiments. Yeah, I like it.
Here's his exact quote, and then we'll get back to
(11:56):
the actual show. You sit there anywhere, talk about young,
talk about John as with your affect. Yeah, okay. All
(12:17):
this to say, all this to say is that this
stuff is is isn't is captivating. You can talk trash
about this kind of professional wrestling all you want, but
when you really start digging into it, even like on
a casual level, it's a lot of fun. And then
and you know, of course, knowing full well that what
we're talking about is completely theater. The stuff with Lincoln
was in theater. I mean that was like a real
you know, feats of strength and and and competition, but
(12:40):
that also contained a healthy amount of trash talking and Lincoln,
you know, compared to what we've just been going through,
Lincoln's is a real doozy and would it be I
would love to see a Lincoln ask w W E
wrestler that only spoke this flavor of trash talk, how
did it go? He goes, I think there's one for
each of us. I'm the big buck of this lick.
(13:05):
If any of you want to try it, come on
and whit your horns. Yeah, I want to see I
want to see those re enactments. I want us. I
want us to do a TV show and do this,
so and and Lincoln could back up the trash talk.
In almost a hundred and thirty years after he's killed
(13:28):
in Ford Theater, the National Wrestling Hall of Fame adds him,
and he is actually not the only US president who
is in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. There are
three others, Teddy Roosevelt that makes sense, Rough Riders, William
Howard Taft, and George Washington. Lincoln, by the way, is
(13:49):
only like twenty one when he becomes the wrestling champion
of the county. We do know a little bit about
his notable matches, and he was living kind of wild,
you know what I mean. If social media was around,
this would have come up, his lifestyle would have come
up in the debates. I think that's right, Ben, I
think that's definitely right. But thankfully all we I am sorry,
(14:10):
but I thought there was another quote of his that
we could we could that you could do a reading of.
But I think there was only that one. I even
went and looked further. But that really is the one
that that that rises to the top of Lincoln wrestling history.
But again, to your point, we probably have a whole
hell of a lot more than that, if only there
were smartphones and twitters back then. But alas I those
(14:32):
have to imagine the other amazing gems that Lincoln would
have would have come out with in the ring. Yeah,
and he had those opportunities, ample opportunities to talk some smack.
We wanted to know chew other of Lincoln's matches. This is,
by the way, before he has the iconic beard and hat.
And I'm just gonna give you a heads up, folks,
if you have known the guy only through the pictures
(14:55):
of him with the beard, get ready for, get ready for?
Is something different. He doesn't look bad. It's just it's
really surprising anyway. So it's like when Alex Trabec shaved
his mustache. I think I think it took all or
it's like when you meet a little kid for the
first time if you're wearing a hat and then you're
not wearing a hat. This happens with dogs sometimes too,
(15:18):
they're like very much. So. So Lincoln has to fight
this guy named Jack Armstrong. Jack Armstrong has a posse.
He is in charge of this gang basically called Claire's
Grove Boys. Uh, and they're known throughout New Salem, Illinois
(15:39):
as these guys who show up to the county to drink,
talk trash and play around. And Armstrong heard, Hey, this
Lincoln kid is a beast in the wrestling ring, and
Armstrong took that, took that as a challenge, so he
went to fight Lincoln and Lincoln one yep, and uh.
(16:01):
We don't really have any specifics on how that match
went down, but we know that Lincoln wrestled for twelve
years total before moving on and after that became much
more of a military man and obviously began to dabble
in politics, which began at the tender age of twenty three.
So he must have gotten to start wrestling. Yeah, he was.
(16:22):
He was a teenager. I mean I think he there
was a little bit of crossover between the wrestling Lincoln
and the military slash political Lincoln. Yeah. So after he
has this match with Armstrong, he knocks Armstrong around and
ultimately knocks Armstrong out, but they become friends, and because
(16:42):
he's friends with the leader of Clary's Grove Boys, he
gets fewer challenges and this is still thought of as
his most impressive win ever. His second one we already
talked about, which is the when he loses to Hank Thompson. Uh.
He does this, as you noted, during military service. He's
(17:03):
a volunteer in the eighteen thirty two Black Hawk War,
and then he wrestles for twelve more years. As we noted,
he's still wrestling when he gets into politics at the
age of twenty three. He runs for the Illinois General
Assembly and I guess at least partially based on his
fame as a wrestler, and he wins, he gets elected,
(17:26):
and from that point on he says, Okay, I gotta
focus just on politics. You know. It's really interesting because
he is kind of a president who started his career
as an entertainer in some way, shape or form. Again,
it wasn't the same as like the Rock and All that,
but it definitely is a form of entertainment that he
(17:47):
was making money and for and he got a reputation
and that largely led to his early successes in politics.
So uh, it's kind of crossover in some ways to
the next fellow on our list. Background and entertainment, a
(18:10):
future in politics. Who does that remind you of? Folks?
It's old Dutch. Ronald Reagan a k. The Gipper had
a lot of street names. Uh, he was when when
one for the Gipper and I die famous. Look it up.
So Dutch also as it passed in Illinois, He's nine
(18:32):
years old when the Reagan family moves to Dixon, and
he loved Dixon. He would later look back on this
and I think view it through rose colored glasses. He
thought it was a bucolic simpler time. He would reference
it as sort of a huck finn Tom saw your
experience and yeah, well you could trick him in and
(18:56):
a painting offense and another antiquated notion that have not aged. Well,
racism was just fine. There's also an ex okay series
of theses I've read about this. Um it was a
great gosh. I'm gonna have to find the scholar but
there was this great piece I read theorizing that Huggleberry
Finn is actually meant to be a black person, is
(19:19):
meant to not be white. And it's a close reading
of the text. But I'm gonna find that one too.
It's it's fascinating. Anyway, I wasn't thinking, Yeah, Reagan isn't
thinking in that depth. He is as as you said,
he's looking these rose colored glasses. He's not acknowledging the
very problematic uh stuff about hug fitted Tom Sawyer and
(19:42):
I liked your impression there. Reagan himself is kind of
a milk toasty kid. You know, he's got millhouse vibes.
He's ketting millhouse vibes is what it is, a bit
of a goldfish, you know what I mean, sort of
a surface swimmer who has a very short memory. M Yeah,
he was skinny, is a slender build. He was shy,
(20:04):
he had thick glasses. He wasn't the best students, and
things changed when he reached his teenage years. When he
was fifteen, he got a summer job that he like
for him changed his life, or at least his view
of himself. Yeah, got a summer job at a six
pack around fifteen, became a lifeguard, real Baywatch type character
(20:27):
at the lower park on Rock River. Uh. And there's
a you know, somewhat questionable in terms of the exact details,
but it's sort of like a formative backstory. It's like
a you know, superhero origin story in some ways. Right. Yeah,
he got more confidence, right because he was in a
(20:48):
position of authority and responsibility, and he would throw rocks
at people, pebbles really to get him to leave the
water when a shift was over. Across seven different summers,
he actually saved seventy seven people from drowning. And he
talks about this a lot in interviews. He also there's
a funny anecdote. Keep in mind, a lot of this
(21:10):
is curated and presented to voters. Right, He's talking about
this in politics, in the realm of politics to seem
more likable. The story goes, according to Helen Lawton, that
one time a guy had been swimming and came up
to Reagan Dutch and said, Hey, I've lost my false
teeth and I can't find them. So Reagan dives in
(21:34):
repeatedly until he finds the false teeth, and the guy
is very happy gives him ten dollars and then according
to Reagan, this is a quote from Reagan, that was
the first time I was ever paved doing anything. Wait,
so he was just like volunteering as a lifeguard. I guess. So, yeah,
he's just saving people for free. Can I just he
(21:57):
really is a real millhouse right there? Man? Can I
just pose it to you? You fellas? Uh, seventies seven
saves huh, but also known for pelting people with rocks.
Wondering if it was one of those like weird supervillain
moves where you you orchestrate the crimes and then you
solve them, uh, in order to look like the hero. Yeah,
(22:19):
like an arsonist who works at the fire department, Right,
I got you? So yeah, that part might be lost
to history. Um, it seems like a whole lot of
of of potential drownings in a very short span of time,
if I had to guess. This is something that was
said very much on the campaign trail and something that
(22:39):
really no one could probably confirm nor deny, and so
thus no one would really go after it and it
would make him look really good in the campaign trail. Well,
I I do like that somebody got elected. When he
got elected president, somebody, hopefully in Illinois, was like that
guy used to throw rocks at me exactly, but didn't happen.
(23:01):
We mentioned, did we mention the caveat though that. Locals
joke that this is a Chicago Tribute article. Locals joke
that at least a few of those were young women
who faked their distressed to be rescued by the handsome
lifeguard La La. We didn't like it. It was a
bit of a smoke show. It's true. Yeah, you can
see Reagan now is transforming to a more physically active person,
(23:23):
this young lifeguard, and he gets involved in sports. He
actually goes to Eureka College on a partial football scholarship.
It doesn't pay for everything, so he gets his second
job that you might not expect. He is the dishwasher
at his fraternity house, and just knowing the hierarchy of fraternity's,
(23:44):
it feels like it's a rough gig, you know what
I mean, Like, hey, Dutch, we're done here, buddy, keep scrubbing.
We gotta go to the sock up. M M. Yeah,
I'd better be able to see my button. Those pans
exactly only the top of the Chrysler building. It is
funny it is a bit of a hazing kind of gig.
(24:04):
But he raised himself up by his his bootstraps and
became a in nine two a I guess semi professional
radio sportscaster at w o C and Davin. No, he was.
He was out of college by then. This was not
I mean, you know, he was paid. It was professional,
didn't pay much. They paid him ten bucks a game,
which is a hundred and seventy four dollars by today's standards,
(24:26):
which is still I mean, these sports ball games are
quite long, if I'm not mistaken, right, So I don't
sart four dollars for a game. That's uh, it's not
a lot of scratching. Three and a half four hours,
probably was set up and breakdown about five six hours. Yeah,
so it's like basically been him on wage. He it's
five hours, and it's a hundred and seventy four dollars
(24:47):
a game. He's making it the equivalent of thirty four
dollars and eighty cents. Now, Oh and she isn't bad, No,
that's pretty good. Sorry, you're better math than me, Ben,
I was late on the draw on the calculator, but yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I blame the calculator. That's a decent starting wage, you know,
for a for a younger fella fresh out of college. Um,
(25:10):
but he would have been a podcaster exactly. He set
his sights higher though, two greater things in ninety seven,
um when he enlisted in the Army Reserves as a private.
But you know, through uh stick, tuitiveness and pluck, he
was promoted to second lieutenant and joined the Officers Reserve
(25:31):
Cores of the Cavalry. M hm yep. And this is
where he is discovered by Holly Uh, an agent for
Warner Brothers, just sees Reagan in the wild in l
A and says, I want to give you a seven
yeah contract, very faustian. Reagan says yes, and he goes
(25:55):
on to have a pretty storied film career. He gets
his nick name The Gipper, which really leaned into later
in life because of a film in nineteen forty where
he plays a notre dame football legend, a guy named
George GiB So. The Gipper is a nickname based on
a role he played. It's like if Keanu Reeves became
(26:18):
president and people called him neo. Yeah. This is iconic
scene that I was describing at the beginning of the show,
at the beginning of the segment, win one for the Gipper.
That's the that's the that's the line. Um. You should
watch the movie. It's it's very, very dated, but it
is kind of a trip seeing Uh, you know, Mr
Warren drugs um acting in the pictures and you can
(26:40):
see him multiple other films. In nineteen two, he goes
to active duty. He's called in by the Air Force
and he is assigned to get this the first motion
picture unit in Culver City, California. Does he do there?
He makes training films over four hundred. This is an
dream of mine. I've always wanted to make workplace those
(27:03):
workplace films for like HR and safety training. I don't
want to be the bad guy though. I want to
be like either the cameo character who's like, what are
we going to stra would be is going to be
the bad guy. Let's make just let's just make one.
Let's just make one. I have watched so many Centron
and Cornet and Encyclopedia Britannica films over these last two
(27:27):
years that I think I can make one very well.
Right now. I like a good project. Uh yeah, and
It's funny how those I don't know how it works exactly.
If you license these for your corporation or whatever, and
you you just kind of keep using the old one
until it becomes so dated that it doesn't even like,
you know, past legal muster anymore. But we, through various
acquisitions of our company, have seen varying shades of these
(27:51):
types of sexual harassment training or you know, workplace decre
what have you. Uh. And there's a certain set of
skills that goes into making these not exactly high art,
but definitely a functional form of filmmaking. Yeah, we're gonna, okay,
that's it. I'm gonna get my sketch comedy crew together.
We're gonna we're gonna make these. Tell us what we should,
(28:11):
tell us, what you want to see, folks. Um. So
this is all before Ronald Reagan ever becomes the President
of the United States. After the war, he gets out
of those training films, he gets out of that gig,
and he starts acting again. It's around nineteen and for
twenty years he is a working actor. He's got one
(28:34):
made for TV movie, and then fifty three motion pictures,
and then later this Dishwasher, this Lifeguard, the star of
Air Force Training films goes on to become the president.
Uh and like you said, Max, he he talks about
we have to be careful with what people talk about
on the campaign trail, you know. And Uh, it might
(28:56):
seem like we're being too nice to Lincoln and maybe
a little on fair to Reagan. But again we pointed
out Lincoln was a trash talking wrestler and if he
had a wrestling clip, if television had been around back
then and we had a clip of him talking trash,
we most certainly would have played it. Uh, no doubt. Yeah,
(29:19):
today's not just I'm having fun with us. Today's not
just about the surprising career some dudes. We had to
We had to add some someone else in the mix, right,
we did. We legal sent us a memo. It was
that was required. No, I'm kidding. This is another great one.
And I love you know, think we both love old
Hollywood and these types of stories and you know, the
(29:39):
backstories of you know who, the people who would become
icons because they're often pretty pretty relatable and then puts
things in a little bit of a different perspective. Uh.
Marilyn Monroe is one of the most iconic of icons
like untouchable, you know, just like like Mufasa and the
Sky and the Lion King. I mean, she just she
looks down upon all of us, gives a ry a
(30:01):
little smile. But her backstory is even weirder and crazier
and turned me onto a concept I didn't even know existed. Uh,
the age of early drones in World War Two? What
(30:21):
Marilyn Monroe before she became the iconic Marilyn Monroe was
named Norma Jean Dougherty, and she was eighteen years old.
She was working a crazy amount of hours ten hours
a day, twenty bucks a week in a World War
two defense plant. She had a husband, United States merchant
(30:45):
seamen assigned overseas, and the company she worked for, radio
Plane in Burbank, California, made these small, remote controlled pilotless
aircrafts that were Yeah, they were like, uh, target practice
kind of for the U. S. Army and the Navy.
And it might surprise people know just how old drone
(31:06):
technology is. Under a code name Operation Aphrodity, radio control
bombers were packed with explosives and flown into the air
by these Allied pilots who would just object once they're
playing reached a target. And this this is pretty nuts
because she yeah, because Doherty is her job specifically is
(31:29):
to inspect and spray parachutes. I mean, it's interesting because
you hear the word drones and you think about, you know,
automated aerial vehicles that can target, you know, with precision
or whatever. This was kind of the opposite. It was
aerial vehicles that were controlled remotely, but that we're actually
(31:51):
used for target practice, right or it was it was
a way of kind of like simulating mission in circumstances.
So uh ms. Doherty actually her job was to inspect
and spray those parachutes that you were describing. Ben in
a factory in Burbank, California. And it's funny because her
(32:13):
mother in law actually warned her she she had gotten
her the job in the first place, or at least
was her connection. She was a nurse working for radio
plane said that the fumes and the factory would would
do a number on her beautiful hair. Uh not to
mention perhaps, you know, inhaling them would not be great
for her health. So um, she essentially was an assembly
(32:37):
line worker and she did her job and eventually actually
one kind of like a I guess a office pool
kind of situation where she got a fifty dollar war
bond after being elected or you know, voted by her peers,
the queen of the company picnic. That's fun. Yeah, And
(32:59):
let's fast forward to June. The Allies are still fighting
against Japanese forces and that's when Norma Jean is photographed.
She is holding up a propeller and you can see
her radio plane I d on her waist. And the
guy who takes this photograph, Private David Conover of Get This,
(33:23):
the Army's first motion picture unit in Culver City, California,
South familiar Reagan fans. He takes this picture of Norma
Jean Reagan's yeah, using using color film, which is pretty
rare at the time, and he is there to get
some propaganda going. Uh. He needs to get pictures of
(33:44):
women in war production, things that will be publicized saying
some version of everyone's doing that part joined up today
and this picture, this picture and several other pictures are
one of the things that establish her in Hollywood. She starts,
I mean, she's very photogetic, and she starts becoming well known.
(34:04):
She takes the stage name Marilyn Monroe and interesting little
quirk of history here thinks that good folks at the
New York Times, we knew this. The commanding officer who
told the private to take that photograph none other than
Captain Ronald Reagan. How about that? Yeah, that's wild. It's
(34:24):
also interesting too. I mean it makes sense because this
was the era of like, you know, Rosie the Riveter,
we can do it and all that stuff, and like
the government making sort of a pr play out of women,
you know, stepping in to do the jobs that their
husbands had done previously. Uh, that's sort of a mixed bag.
He's On the one hand, it is kind of cool
and empowering in a way, but it's also sort of like, uh,
(34:45):
we'll just hold down the fort while the men are away,
you know, and then when they return, potentially go back to,
you know, our subservient roles. But I think this actually
did cause kind of a you know, a sea change
in what jobs men were considered for. Uh, in a way.
I mean it certainly wasn't some sort of like glass
ceiling shattering moment, but I think it did to some
(35:07):
degree move things forward. Agree, at least in a small way. Yeah, agreed.
I mean it's it's inarguable. It's simply a fact that
World War Two would not have been won by the
Allies if women in the population weren't part of the war.
Effort to say otherwise really diminishes the crucial role they played.
(35:27):
And uh oh, that's an episode in it's of itself.
We should do a special series on just the nineteen
fifties postwar economic boom. Uh and then training videos. We'll
do both of those. Yet, I say, really quickly speaking
of like coming upcoming topics, Um, we've done and we
started doing a new thing where we have a weekly
call with super producer Max and research associate Zack and
(35:50):
Jeff and good heavens, We've got like sixty incredible topics
that I think you all are going to enjoy so
very much. And it's just become like, I think the
highlight of of of all of our weeks is getting together,
you know, whenever we do these, I think we do
like about once a month. But I am so excited
about some of the show topics we have coming up, Ben,
(36:11):
I don't know about you. Yeah, very excited. And we're
gonna have some special guests coming uh for all the
all the TDZ fans stay tuned and uh, no spoilers,
But what's your favorite reality TV show? Folks keep that
answer in mind for some upcoming shows. But even as
(36:31):
reality ben I don't understand it's funny that they call
it reality TV in the first place. But let's get
back to Norma Jean and Private Conover. Hanover is so
taken with Norma Jean that he ends up taking leave
from the Army Air Corps and he spends two weeks
(36:52):
with her taking photos and teaching her how to pose
for the camera. This leads to her signing with something
called the Blue Book Modeling Agency in nineteen At this point,
she sometimes started calling herself Gene Norman. Before before she
gets to Marilyn Monroe, this photographer Conover has to go
to the Philippines. He's called a duty in the Philippines,
(37:15):
they lose contact and her career begins to take off
in nineteen fifty three, and that's when he learns this
guy Conover. He's like, oh wait, that's the lead I
took all those photos of I taught her to model.
Now her name is Marilyn Monroe and talking about being
a stand up person. I didn't know this Noel Max.
(37:38):
Marilyn Monroe spent her whole life crediting her success, a
large part of it to private conover and they even
met again on the set of a film you might
have heard of, Gentlemen preverb blonds. I can't say that
in a not somewhat sleezy voice. No, there's there's no way.
(37:58):
There's absolutely no way to do it. I think that's
pretty neat because she didn't have to do that, and
it's not like I mean, honestly, he just sort of
did a kindness. It's not like he gave her her
big break or anything exactly, but he just helped her
kind of find that path again. Like we're talking about
the top of the show. Sometimes little choices you make, uh,
and people you encounter can lead you to surprising places
(38:21):
that you never would have expected. And I think it's
important to be grateful for the people that you encounter
in your life that that help you along that path,
even if it's not like oh you you you gave
me my first job, or you you broke my career,
or this that and the other. Just people who you
learn from and um who are you know, kind to
you and give you the time and attention because, as
you always say, Ben, time is is the most valuable
(38:42):
commodity that anyone has. It's the only real currency. In
the end, I do want to shout out super producer
Max Williams, who next. You came through UH and you
pulled up you found the image that we're talking about
from the drone company and it's it's recognizably Marilyn Monroe.
(39:04):
You popped it here in the chat UH without blonde
hair yet and looking very much honestly, I'll say it
looking like it's kind of in a training video. She
looks like a scientist working in a video about how
to put propellers on properly. But I mean without without
all that glam and the makeup and the blonde, she's
(39:25):
almost unrecognizable. Yeah, you see, you see the the iconic
appearance really start to surface when she gets modeling gigs.
They start out as advertisements in Suffer men's magazines, but
her agency, blue Book Modeling decides. You know, they're talking
(39:47):
to it and they're saying, you know, Norma Jeane, you
have less of a figure for a fashion model and
more of a figure of a pent up, which sounds
not super great, maybe right, hearing that in the modern day.
But they they're telling her basically, she has the wrong
body to be a fashion model, and modeling itself can
(40:08):
be such a brutal industry. But the founder a blue book,
the founder Miss Emmiline snive Ley, which sounds like a
bad guy at a children's book boy, doesn't ever like
you know, tye, Penelope pitstop to the brain tracks, right, Uh,
she is actually not an evil children's book figure. She
(40:31):
introduces Norma Jean to Hollywood, to the movie industry, and
that's where her career takes off and how she becomes
the Marilyn Monroe people know today. Uh. And it's interesting
that for so long Monroe was treated as a stereotypical
(40:53):
like she was treated as a stereotypical kind of ditzy
person or a dumb blonde character. But looking at her life,
at this individual's life, you can see that she was
incredibly intelligent, right, and that stereotype is undeserved. It's just
nuts because you have to be pretty sharp to work
(41:15):
at a drone factory, right, yeah, you do. I mean
it's not I mean, you know, it's repetitive work, but
it's not mindless work. And there are lots of moving
parts and things that could be messed up, and you
have to know your business. I wanted to bring something
up Ben you mentioned, uh, you know, the idea of oh,
(41:35):
you got the body for a pinop or whatever, and
the kind of problematic nature of that kind of thing.
I watched um, uh, the first Pink Panther movie yesterday
on on streaming with my girlfriend, and I saw a
funny thing. You know how before movies come on, they
have those like warnings for different content things that you
should you know, look out for. This one had one
(41:55):
and and and then sometimes they're like abbreviated. It'll be like,
you know, uh, strong sexual content might be like SSC.
This one said, oh C, and that stands for outdated
cultural refa. That's kind of I think you could be.
You need to be a little well exactly, because that's
(42:18):
the thing. First of all, the very first scene in
in the Pink Panther movie is in like a kind
of a harem type situation in an East Indian palace
kind of situation, and that's handled with a good bit
of cultural insensitivity. But the thing that was really kind
of a lot was there's this part where this this
(42:39):
dude is making advances on this woman, and he essentially
breaks into a room under false pretenses and just throws
himself at her, and she's just so docile about it,
just like kind of like pushing him off, but also
like mainly just being like, oh no, no, I can't
right now because excuses. But like it's just the most
(43:00):
gross kind of me too thing I've ever seen. It
was really hard to watch. Heepe Lapu man very much.
That very much that and this, uh, this takes us
to another conversation. Different things We're going to explore in
future episodes. We have tons of other trivia that we
(43:21):
haven't gotten to. Uh. Lincoln right now remains the only
US president who have obtained a patent, so go you abe,
you know, uh, in addition to being president. That's a
cool thing. And here, you know, we're kind of on
the fence about this before we went into this episode.
But I think this is a series. I think we
(43:43):
can do more surprising former careers of notable public figures.
I completely agree. Maybe we'll workshop, like what the the
official title of the series is, we we've got a
bit of a history of introducing series and then it
just kind of abandoning them, but hey, it's our prerogative.
But now I love this one. I think there's so
many more. We did one with about like weird presidential pets.
(44:04):
You know that one was fun um, but now they're
This one is a there's a there's gold in them
hills in terms of like weird jobs that people that
were known for a one major thing have done in
their lives. I think we need to dig deeper into
this time, like legendary breakdanswer Joan of arc you know, uh,
the inventor of the worm. Totally she could. I was
(44:25):
about to say her worm was unparalleled, and then you
reminded me that it was in fact her very invention
likely uh you know, driven by the Word of God. Yeah,
she got into that part later. Uh so. Also sorry
to Kane Hendry, uh, who's considered the creator of the word.
(44:47):
But we have more surprising former careers ahead. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts, folks. We hope you enjoyed
this episode. Will be back later in the week with
some more surprising, ridiculous history. In the meantime, thanks of
course to Mr Max Williams. Thanks to composer Alex Williams, Noel,
(45:08):
Thanks to you. I'd also like to personally thank um
my old my old colleagues in the world of international affairs,
some of whom listen to this podcast. So that's where
I ended up. Guys, thanks for thanks for tuning in.
We have other people to thank. Do you think Jonathan
Strickland will be okay with being the villain in our
(45:30):
training videos? I mean, he's just he's sort of the
heel of the show. You know, if he was a wrestler,
he'd be the heel. He'd also be the villain. I mean,
we don't have to let him make him like sexually
harass anybody or anything, but he can at the very
least try to encourage somebody to do something that's morally
comprehensible in the workplace. So so I got the idea.
Have you guys ever seen the training video safety video
(45:53):
shake Hands with Danger? Yes? No, but I know that
like these kinds of institutional films were sometimes done by
big directors early in their career. I think that's one
of them, right, Um, I'm not sure about that, but
that is a very and uh, I think it's Hark Harvey.
I think it's like it's like one of his last
credited ones. But it is just like it's a horror film.
(46:13):
It is so bad. It's like it's like it's like
tighten this thing, or it's gonna rip your arm off,
and stuff that I'm thinking more kind of like Strickland
can be like the guy who like it, like cuts
the corner on some safety video and then get some
absolutely horrific results come to him. What do you guys think? Yeah,
I love it. He's our He's our Dudley, don't max uh.
(46:36):
I also, in full disclosure, have a long history with
casting Jonathan in villainous roles when I was when I
was heading up our video department, I would consistently go
to him and make him the villain. So, Jonathan, if
you're listening, thank you again. You're amazed on camera. Would
(46:57):
love to cast you and some other stuff. And I
hope that it's okay because I'm just now realizing you
were almost always the villain my bad and just to
double back really quickly. Her Carve, who directed Shake Hands
with Danger, also directed one of your favorite movies been
Carnival of Souls in the early sixties, and then went
on to do some of these institutional films, but there
(47:18):
there are a handful of directors that have some of
those on their IMDb s that maybe they wish would
get wiped off. Yeah, and do you even triple back
on this? If you want to learn more about her Carvey,
check out his episode that we did on Ephemeral where
we go from early to Carnival Souls toil afterwards that
like to stuff like check hands with danger and stuff beautiful,
(47:38):
great rack, beautiful in the meantime, Huge days, superducer, Max
Williams as always Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Christophraciotis
here in spirit Yes yes And thanks to Eve's Jeff
cot thinks to Gabe Lucier, thanks to our research associates
Jeff Partlett and Zach Williams no relation. Have a great week, folks.
(47:59):
We'll see you next time. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. Let's give it up for
the one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. Hooray, hooray.
I love the energy here on a wonderful summer Monday morning.
Uh they called me Ben. Uh No. I don't know
(00:49):
about you, but one of the questions that I get
asked so often when I'm traveling around, when I'm speaking
to groups is how did you end up becoming a podcaster?
And I know about you, man, but I've been doing
this long enough that when I'm being honest with people,
I just sort of got into it. I just was
in the right place at the right time. I just
(01:12):
kind of happening just one day. It's kind of started
talking and then I just never stopped, and eventually I
just put a mic in front of me and other
people to kind of talk with uh. And it became
a weird little career. You know. Um, that's not true.
It's an oversimplification at best. Now. I mean, like, you know,
my background was in your backgrounds obviously, and lots of
(01:33):
things including writing and and theater and performance and all that.
But it's just I think we both found our way
through various circuitous paths to this podcast life. Um, but
it's you know, I think sometimes it's easy to sell
yourself short and be like, oh, I just stumbled my
way into it. But little choices that we've made throughout
the years I think have led to the uh, the
(01:54):
natural results of being podcasters. But lucky to have been
able to make a go of it. It doesn't it
seems like it's a thing that we can depend on,
I suppose. So thanks to that. Thanks to you all,
because you're you're really our bosses. I U. It's funny
you mentioned this because it occurred to me. Oh, we
were researching today's episode, which is a fun when it
(02:17):
occurred to me that now it's quite possible that there
are children, maybe in the audience today who think I
want to be a podcaster when I grow up, you know.
And also, kids, you don't have to wait until you
grow up. You can you can start your own show
when whenever you would like. We'd love to hear about it.
(02:37):
But this is kind of an entry point for us
because if you ask many, many people, then you will
find that most people are happy with what they're doing right,
whether it's a career, um, whether it's their romantic or
social situation, they're often happy. But they didn't picked it
(03:00):
back in the early days. You know, It's it's pretty
rare for someone to say, yes, I am the world's
premier hang glider and I knew I wanted to be
the world's best hang glider guy, lady person entity. Uh
since I was a wee tyke and saw my first
paper airplane. That's really rare, right, Like, do you know
(03:24):
anybody who you know, since they were six years old
said I want to be uh shoemaker? No, I mean, well,
you know Daniel Daniel day Lewis sort of pivoted from
acting to shoemaking, which I thought was pretty cool. Um. Yeah,
it's definitely rare, but man, when it happens, it clicks
like that. I'm always really jealous of those people with
(03:44):
that level of like forethought, um, because you know, I've
done everything from you know, working music stores too, like
I were. I think my first taste of performance, I
guess was playing in bands rock bands, but then I
also worked at a science center where I did like
science kind of shows, for kids, which is the closest
thing to podcasting. Well, it's not sure that I did
like public radio stuff. My point is this, you think
(04:05):
about an Abraham Lincoln, you think about him, you know,
being the president, the guy on the five, you know,
the guy with the stovepipe hat, the guy that you know,
in his own way, was very very instrumental in liberating
uh slaves us exactly correct. Yeah, but you don't necessarily
think of a well what about before that? You think
(04:25):
he's kind of popped out fully formed as this like
cartoon president, But he had some trials and tribulations and
things that that led him to that you know, final
result of of being what he ultimately became. And it's
not what you think, As is the case for all
the others that we're gonna talk through today, We've got
a handful. It's kind of a fun grab bag episode
about surprising former careers and rather than tease all of them,
(04:47):
let's just dive right into Lincoln. What do you said? Yeah,
let's do it, and we hope this is inspiring. We also, uh,
we might make this a series. We're on the fence.
We just found so much style here. Yeah, here are
a few so Lincoln is now known, as he said, Noel,
as a president of the United States. That's one of
the that's one of his big wins in history. If
(05:09):
you ask the average person to name presidents throughout history,
Lincoln's name will inevitably come up, often right after whomever
the current president is. Everybody kind of knows about him.
He's also well known outside of the US, And of
course people don't talk about Lincoln without talking about the
(05:31):
Civil War and his assassination at the hands of John
Wilkes booth right, who said thus to all tyrants. But
back in the day, when he was just a young
string being, he was known less his presidential material and
more as a professional wrestler, true story, that's his background. Man,
(05:57):
he's it's all drink of water. That guy would isn't
typically what you would associate with a wrestler. But think
about that reach, right, and those and those those those
meat hooks, those bear claws. He could slap a man
senseless with those hams. He's got the reach for sure.
And you know, it's common for people in high levels
(06:18):
of political power, at least in democracies, to have varied careers.
There's a great study I wanted to find it. I'll
have to look for this after we record. There's this
great study about the proportion of backgrounds for leaders in
different countries. Like a lot of political leaders in the
government of China came from an engineering background. A lot
(06:42):
of political leaders in the US come from a illegal background. Right,
they are attorneys where they have clerked somewhere. He was
kind of a country boy, wasn't he, Like, I mean,
he has really kind of assault of the earth, you know,
lived in a maybe I'll well, there was the there
was that the Titstione or Lincoln Log cabin. Right, he
did live in two somewhat rustic surroundings, and I'm not mistaken. Yeah,
(07:06):
he didn't have the best childhood. He moved around various
parts of the U. S heartland from uh he was
born in Kentucky, and he moved to Indiana and until Illinois,
and his his mom passed away when he was nine.
It was rough, but he he succeeded despite the adversity
to become a super super like super good wrestler. And
(07:31):
this is real wrestling. They're actually graspling sort of what
you might consider like Olympic style Greco Roman wrestling. Where
you're like kind of on the ground. Paul pretzeled up
with Era with your opponents. Yeah, and this we should say.
Other presidents did have careers that might surprise you. James
Garfield taught school, Rover Cleveland was a sheriff. Herbert Hoover
(07:55):
was an engineer. But we chose Lincoln because of the wrestling.
So what you would basically do with this This isn't like, um,
this isn't like the high production value wrestling that you
see on pay per view. It's not like the Undertaker
comes in with a song and all these props and stuff. No,
these this wrestling is when two guys enter the ring,
(08:16):
they lock arms, they get the call to go, and
they just try to throw the other guy to the ground.
And Lincoln's record is astonishing three wins, he lost once.
Who was that guy? Do we know? Who was that guy? What?
We we didn't know until we got ready for this episode.
(08:39):
On April twenty second two, future President Abraham Lincoln got
his key star handed to him. He was thrown down
twice in a row by a guy named Lorenzo dow
Thompson hank to his friends, but every other time Lincoln
like dominated you know, it's funny. I actually was hanging
out with with day, my my girlfriend, and and my
(09:02):
kid last night, and I don't remember how it came up,
but I decided to like pull up like wrestling trash
talk videos like compilations, because man, that is some fun
theatrical shenanigans like the Rock for example, he you know, he,
I think he popularized calling people jabronies, you know, and
and I believe Candy asked things like that. But he
(09:24):
does this weird thing where he does he asks if
people can smell la la la, what the rock is cooking?
I don't understand what that's a reference to. Is it?
Is it a crack thing cooking rocks? He what is
he cooking? And why? Why does he want able to
smell it? It's you know, don't don't break your heart
trying to overthink the mythology. That's what that's. That's like
(09:45):
what I found out the Undertaker didn't have superpowers. It's
another confusing one. Austin three sixteen. There isn't that, But
isn't there not an Austin? Like no, sorry, of course,
the there's no book of Austin. It's yeah, and what
(10:06):
is that we know we can find uh it's it's
supposed to be a flip of the chapter of the
verse that says, for God so loved the world that
he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That's the
King's James version. And I never understood the Austin three
(10:27):
sixteen part. But people trying to appeal to Christians? Is
that the deal like to the to the I don't know.
I feel like it's more something the fans started, not him.
So yeah, I don't get it either. But okay, here
we go. Okay, let's hear it. Okay, I I found it.
So I'm not an expert on wrestling, so I was
(10:49):
looking this up. Apparently it dates back to UH nine
six King of the Ring event where Austin took the
win by fighting a guy named Jake the Snake Roberts,
who at the time was born again Christian and so
he uh so, when Austin won, he mocked roberts newfound
(11:12):
spiritual beliefs and then said, basically, I guess he said
more like Austin three sixteen, and the crowd went wild.
Oh man, and I would like to submit an interpretive
reading of the passage with a little twist for God
so loved the world that he gave his only son
that whoever believes in him should not perish in the
(11:35):
seal right now, And that's not enough. Feat. I don't
know how big an octagon ring is, but you get
the idea, you get the sentiments. Yeah, I like it.
Here's his exact quote, and then we'll get back to
(11:56):
the actual show. You sit there anywhere, talk about young,
talk about John as with your affect. Yeah, okay. All
(12:17):
this to say, all this to say is that this
stuff is is isn't is captivating. You can talk trash
about this kind of professional wrestling all you want, but
when you really start digging into it, even like on
a casual level, it's a lot of fun. And then
and you know, of course, knowing full well that what
we're talking about is completely theater. The stuff with Lincoln
was in theater. I mean that was like a real
you know, feats of strength and and and competition, but
(12:40):
that also contained a healthy amount of trash talking and Lincoln,
you know, compared to what we've just been going through,
Lincoln's is a real doozy and would it be I
would love to see a Lincoln ask w W E
wrestler that only spoke this flavor of trash talk, how
did it go? He goes, I think there's one for
each of us. I'm the big buck of this lick.
(13:05):
If any of you want to try it, come on
and whit your horns. Yeah, I want to see I
want to see those re enactments. I want us. I
want us to do a TV show and do this,
so and and Lincoln could back up the trash talk.
In almost a hundred and thirty years after he's killed
(13:28):
in Ford Theater, the National Wrestling Hall of Fame adds him,
and he is actually not the only US president who
is in the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. There are
three others, Teddy Roosevelt that makes sense, Rough Riders, William
Howard Taft, and George Washington. Lincoln, by the way, is
(13:49):
only like twenty one when he becomes the wrestling champion
of the county. We do know a little bit about
his notable matches, and he was living kind of wild,
you know what I mean. If social media was around,
this would have come up, his lifestyle would have come
up in the debates. I think that's right, Ben, I
think that's definitely right. But thankfully all we I am sorry,
(14:10):
but I thought there was another quote of his that
we could we could that you could do a reading of.
But I think there was only that one. I even
went and looked further. But that really is the one
that that that rises to the top of Lincoln wrestling history.
But again, to your point, we probably have a whole
hell of a lot more than that, if only there
were smartphones and twitters back then. But alas I those
(14:32):
have to imagine the other amazing gems that Lincoln would
have would have come out with in the ring. Yeah,
and he had those opportunities, ample opportunities to talk some smack.
We wanted to know chew other of Lincoln's matches. This is,
by the way, before he has the iconic beard and hat.
And I'm just gonna give you a heads up, folks,
if you have known the guy only through the pictures
(14:55):
of him with the beard, get ready for, get ready for?
Is something different. He doesn't look bad. It's just it's
really surprising anyway. So it's like when Alex Trabec shaved
his mustache. I think I think it took all or
it's like when you meet a little kid for the
first time if you're wearing a hat and then you're
not wearing a hat. This happens with dogs sometimes too,
(15:18):
they're like very much. So. So Lincoln has to fight
this guy named Jack Armstrong. Jack Armstrong has a posse.
He is in charge of this gang basically called Claire's
Grove Boys. Uh, and they're known throughout New Salem, Illinois
(15:39):
as these guys who show up to the county to drink,
talk trash and play around. And Armstrong heard, Hey, this
Lincoln kid is a beast in the wrestling ring, and
Armstrong took that, took that as a challenge, so he
went to fight Lincoln and Lincoln one yep, and uh.
(16:01):
We don't really have any specifics on how that match
went down, but we know that Lincoln wrestled for twelve
years total before moving on and after that became much
more of a military man and obviously began to dabble
in politics, which began at the tender age of twenty three.
So he must have gotten to start wrestling. Yeah, he was.
(16:22):
He was a teenager. I mean I think he there
was a little bit of crossover between the wrestling Lincoln
and the military slash political Lincoln. Yeah. So after he
has this match with Armstrong, he knocks Armstrong around and
ultimately knocks Armstrong out, but they become friends, and because
(16:42):
he's friends with the leader of Clary's Grove Boys, he
gets fewer challenges and this is still thought of as
his most impressive win ever. His second one we already
talked about, which is the when he loses to Hank Thompson. Uh.
He does this, as you noted, during military service. He's
(17:03):
a volunteer in the eighteen thirty two Black Hawk War,
and then he wrestles for twelve more years. As we noted,
he's still wrestling when he gets into politics at the
age of twenty three. He runs for the Illinois General
Assembly and I guess at least partially based on his
fame as a wrestler, and he wins, he gets elected,
(17:26):
and from that point on he says, Okay, I gotta
focus just on politics. You know. It's really interesting because
he is kind of a president who started his career
as an entertainer in some way, shape or form. Again,
it wasn't the same as like the Rock and All that,
but it definitely is a form of entertainment that he
(17:47):
was making money and for and he got a reputation
and that largely led to his early successes in politics.
So uh, it's kind of crossover in some ways to
the next fellow on our list. Background and entertainment, a
(18:10):
future in politics. Who does that remind you of? Folks?
It's old Dutch. Ronald Reagan a k. The Gipper had
a lot of street names. Uh, he was when when
one for the Gipper and I die famous. Look it up.
So Dutch also as it passed in Illinois, He's nine
(18:32):
years old when the Reagan family moves to Dixon, and
he loved Dixon. He would later look back on this
and I think view it through rose colored glasses. He
thought it was a bucolic simpler time. He would reference
it as sort of a huck finn Tom saw your
experience and yeah, well you could trick him in and
(18:56):
a painting offense and another antiquated notion that have not aged. Well,
racism was just fine. There's also an ex okay series
of theses I've read about this. Um it was a
great gosh. I'm gonna have to find the scholar but
there was this great piece I read theorizing that Huggleberry
Finn is actually meant to be a black person, is
(19:19):
meant to not be white. And it's a close reading
of the text. But I'm gonna find that one too.
It's it's fascinating. Anyway, I wasn't thinking, Yeah, Reagan isn't
thinking in that depth. He is as as you said,
he's looking these rose colored glasses. He's not acknowledging the
very problematic uh stuff about hug fitted Tom Sawyer and
(19:42):
I liked your impression there. Reagan himself is kind of
a milk toasty kid. You know, he's got millhouse vibes.
He's ketting millhouse vibes is what it is, a bit
of a goldfish, you know what I mean, sort of
a surface swimmer who has a very short memory. M Yeah,
he was skinny, is a slender build. He was shy,
(20:04):
he had thick glasses. He wasn't the best students, and
things changed when he reached his teenage years. When he
was fifteen, he got a summer job that he like
for him changed his life, or at least his view
of himself. Yeah, got a summer job at a six
pack around fifteen, became a lifeguard, real Baywatch type character
(20:27):
at the lower park on Rock River. Uh. And there's
a you know, somewhat questionable in terms of the exact details,
but it's sort of like a formative backstory. It's like
a you know, superhero origin story in some ways. Right. Yeah,
he got more confidence, right because he was in a
(20:48):
position of authority and responsibility, and he would throw rocks
at people, pebbles really to get him to leave the
water when a shift was over. Across seven different summers,
he actually saved seventy seven people from drowning. And he
talks about this a lot in interviews. He also there's
a funny anecdote. Keep in mind, a lot of this
(21:10):
is curated and presented to voters. Right, He's talking about
this in politics, in the realm of politics to seem
more likable. The story goes, according to Helen Lawton, that
one time a guy had been swimming and came up
to Reagan Dutch and said, Hey, I've lost my false
teeth and I can't find them. So Reagan dives in
(21:34):
repeatedly until he finds the false teeth, and the guy
is very happy gives him ten dollars and then according
to Reagan, this is a quote from Reagan, that was
the first time I was ever paved doing anything. Wait,
so he was just like volunteering as a lifeguard. I guess. So, yeah,
he's just saving people for free. Can I just he
(21:57):
really is a real millhouse right there? Man? Can I
just pose it to you? You fellas? Uh, seventies seven
saves huh, but also known for pelting people with rocks.
Wondering if it was one of those like weird supervillain
moves where you you orchestrate the crimes and then you
solve them, uh, in order to look like the hero. Yeah,
(22:19):
like an arsonist who works at the fire department, Right,
I got you? So yeah, that part might be lost
to history. Um, it seems like a whole lot of
of of potential drownings in a very short span of time,
if I had to guess. This is something that was
said very much on the campaign trail and something that
(22:39):
really no one could probably confirm nor deny, and so
thus no one would really go after it and it
would make him look really good in the campaign trail. Well,
I I do like that somebody got elected. When he
got elected president, somebody, hopefully in Illinois, was like that
guy used to throw rocks at me exactly, but didn't happen.
(23:01):
We mentioned, did we mention the caveat though that. Locals
joke that this is a Chicago Tribute article. Locals joke
that at least a few of those were young women
who faked their distressed to be rescued by the handsome
lifeguard La La. We didn't like it. It was a
bit of a smoke show. It's true. Yeah, you can
see Reagan now is transforming to a more physically active person,
(23:23):
this young lifeguard, and he gets involved in sports. He
actually goes to Eureka College on a partial football scholarship.
It doesn't pay for everything, so he gets his second
job that you might not expect. He is the dishwasher
at his fraternity house, and just knowing the hierarchy of fraternity's,
(23:44):
it feels like it's a rough gig, you know what
I mean, Like, hey, Dutch, we're done here, buddy, keep scrubbing.
We gotta go to the sock up. M M. Yeah,
I'd better be able to see my button. Those pans
exactly only the top of the Chrysler building. It is
funny it is a bit of a hazing kind of gig.
(24:04):
But he raised himself up by his his bootstraps and
became a in nine two a I guess semi professional
radio sportscaster at w o C and Davin. No, he was.
He was out of college by then. This was not
I mean, you know, he was paid. It was professional,
didn't pay much. They paid him ten bucks a game,
which is a hundred and seventy four dollars by today's standards,
(24:26):
which is still I mean, these sports ball games are
quite long, if I'm not mistaken, right, So I don't
sart four dollars for a game. That's uh, it's not
a lot of scratching. Three and a half four hours,
probably was set up and breakdown about five six hours. Yeah,
so it's like basically been him on wage. He it's
five hours, and it's a hundred and seventy four dollars
(24:47):
a game. He's making it the equivalent of thirty four
dollars and eighty cents. Now, Oh and she isn't bad, No,
that's pretty good. Sorry, you're better math than me, Ben,
I was late on the draw on the calculator, but yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I blame the calculator. That's a decent starting wage, you know,
for a for a younger fella fresh out of college. Um,
(25:10):
but he would have been a podcaster exactly. He set
his sights higher though, two greater things in ninety seven,
um when he enlisted in the Army Reserves as a private.
But you know, through uh stick, tuitiveness and pluck, he
was promoted to second lieutenant and joined the Officers Reserve
(25:31):
Cores of the Cavalry. M hm yep. And this is
where he is discovered by Holly Uh, an agent for
Warner Brothers, just sees Reagan in the wild in l
A and says, I want to give you a seven
yeah contract, very faustian. Reagan says yes, and he goes
(25:55):
on to have a pretty storied film career. He gets
his nick name The Gipper, which really leaned into later
in life because of a film in nineteen forty where
he plays a notre dame football legend, a guy named
George GiB So. The Gipper is a nickname based on
a role he played. It's like if Keanu Reeves became
(26:18):
president and people called him neo. Yeah. This is iconic
scene that I was describing at the beginning of the show,
at the beginning of the segment, win one for the Gipper.
That's the that's the that's the line. Um. You should
watch the movie. It's it's very, very dated, but it
is kind of a trip seeing Uh, you know, Mr
Warren drugs um acting in the pictures and you can
(26:40):
see him multiple other films. In nineteen two, he goes
to active duty. He's called in by the Air Force
and he is assigned to get this the first motion
picture unit in Culver City, California. Does he do there?
He makes training films over four hundred. This is an
dream of mine. I've always wanted to make workplace those
(27:03):
workplace films for like HR and safety training. I don't
want to be the bad guy though. I want to
be like either the cameo character who's like, what are
we going to stra would be is going to be
the bad guy. Let's make just let's just make one.
Let's just make one. I have watched so many Centron
and Cornet and Encyclopedia Britannica films over these last two
(27:27):
years that I think I can make one very well.
Right now. I like a good project. Uh yeah, and
It's funny how those I don't know how it works exactly.
If you license these for your corporation or whatever, and
you you just kind of keep using the old one
until it becomes so dated that it doesn't even like,
you know, past legal muster anymore. But we, through various
acquisitions of our company, have seen varying shades of these
(27:51):
types of sexual harassment training or you know, workplace decre
what have you. Uh. And there's a certain set of
skills that goes into making these not exactly high art,
but definitely a functional form of filmmaking. Yeah, we're gonna, okay,
that's it. I'm gonna get my sketch comedy crew together.
We're gonna we're gonna make these. Tell us what we should,
(28:11):
tell us, what you want to see, folks. Um. So
this is all before Ronald Reagan ever becomes the President
of the United States. After the war, he gets out
of those training films, he gets out of that gig,
and he starts acting again. It's around nineteen and for
twenty years he is a working actor. He's got one
(28:34):
made for TV movie, and then fifty three motion pictures,
and then later this Dishwasher, this Lifeguard, the star of
Air Force Training films goes on to become the president.
Uh and like you said, Max, he he talks about
we have to be careful with what people talk about
on the campaign trail, you know. And Uh, it might
(28:56):
seem like we're being too nice to Lincoln and maybe
a little on fair to Reagan. But again we pointed
out Lincoln was a trash talking wrestler and if he
had a wrestling clip, if television had been around back
then and we had a clip of him talking trash,
we most certainly would have played it. Uh, no doubt. Yeah,
(29:19):
today's not just I'm having fun with us. Today's not
just about the surprising career some dudes. We had to
We had to add some someone else in the mix, right,
we did. We legal sent us a memo. It was
that was required. No, I'm kidding. This is another great one.
And I love you know, think we both love old
Hollywood and these types of stories and you know, the
(29:39):
backstories of you know who, the people who would become
icons because they're often pretty pretty relatable and then puts
things in a little bit of a different perspective. Uh.
Marilyn Monroe is one of the most iconic of icons
like untouchable, you know, just like like Mufasa and the
Sky and the Lion King. I mean, she just she
looks down upon all of us, gives a ry a
(30:01):
little smile. But her backstory is even weirder and crazier
and turned me onto a concept I didn't even know existed. Uh,
the age of early drones in World War Two? What
(30:21):
Marilyn Monroe before she became the iconic Marilyn Monroe was
named Norma Jean Dougherty, and she was eighteen years old.
She was working a crazy amount of hours ten hours
a day, twenty bucks a week in a World War
two defense plant. She had a husband, United States merchant
(30:45):
seamen assigned overseas, and the company she worked for, radio
Plane in Burbank, California, made these small, remote controlled pilotless
aircrafts that were Yeah, they were like, uh, target practice
kind of for the U. S. Army and the Navy.
And it might surprise people know just how old drone
(31:06):
technology is. Under a code name Operation Aphrodity, radio control
bombers were packed with explosives and flown into the air
by these Allied pilots who would just object once they're
playing reached a target. And this this is pretty nuts
because she yeah, because Doherty is her job specifically is
(31:29):
to inspect and spray parachutes. I mean, it's interesting because
you hear the word drones and you think about, you know,
automated aerial vehicles that can target, you know, with precision
or whatever. This was kind of the opposite. It was
aerial vehicles that were controlled remotely, but that we're actually
(31:51):
used for target practice, right or it was it was
a way of kind of like simulating mission in circumstances.
So uh ms. Doherty actually her job was to inspect
and spray those parachutes that you were describing. Ben in
a factory in Burbank, California. And it's funny because her
(32:13):
mother in law actually warned her she she had gotten
her the job in the first place, or at least
was her connection. She was a nurse working for radio
plane said that the fumes and the factory would would
do a number on her beautiful hair. Uh not to
mention perhaps, you know, inhaling them would not be great
for her health. So um, she essentially was an assembly
(32:37):
line worker and she did her job and eventually actually
one kind of like a I guess a office pool
kind of situation where she got a fifty dollar war
bond after being elected or you know, voted by her peers,
the queen of the company picnic. That's fun. Yeah, And
(32:59):
let's fast forward to June. The Allies are still fighting
against Japanese forces and that's when Norma Jean is photographed.
She is holding up a propeller and you can see
her radio plane I d on her waist. And the
guy who takes this photograph, Private David Conover of Get This,
(33:23):
the Army's first motion picture unit in Culver City, California,
South familiar Reagan fans. He takes this picture of Norma
Jean Reagan's yeah, using using color film, which is pretty
rare at the time, and he is there to get
some propaganda going. Uh. He needs to get pictures of
(33:44):
women in war production, things that will be publicized saying
some version of everyone's doing that part joined up today
and this picture, this picture and several other pictures are
one of the things that establish her in Hollywood. She starts,
I mean, she's very photogetic, and she starts becoming well known.
(34:04):
She takes the stage name Marilyn Monroe and interesting little
quirk of history here thinks that good folks at the
New York Times, we knew this. The commanding officer who
told the private to take that photograph none other than
Captain Ronald Reagan. How about that? Yeah, that's wild. It's
(34:24):
also interesting too. I mean it makes sense because this
was the era of like, you know, Rosie the Riveter,
we can do it and all that stuff, and like
the government making sort of a pr play out of women,
you know, stepping in to do the jobs that their
husbands had done previously. Uh, that's sort of a mixed bag.
He's On the one hand, it is kind of cool
and empowering in a way, but it's also sort of like, uh,
(34:45):
we'll just hold down the fort while the men are away,
you know, and then when they return, potentially go back to,
you know, our subservient roles. But I think this actually
did cause kind of a you know, a sea change
in what jobs men were considered for. Uh, in a way.
I mean it certainly wasn't some sort of like glass
ceiling shattering moment, but I think it did to some
(35:07):
degree move things forward. Agree, at least in a small way. Yeah, agreed.
I mean it's it's inarguable. It's simply a fact that
World War Two would not have been won by the
Allies if women in the population weren't part of the war.
Effort to say otherwise really diminishes the crucial role they played.
(35:27):
And uh oh, that's an episode in it's of itself.
We should do a special series on just the nineteen
fifties postwar economic boom. Uh and then training videos. We'll
do both of those. Yet, I say, really quickly speaking
of like coming upcoming topics, Um, we've done and we
started doing a new thing where we have a weekly
call with super producer Max and research associate Zack and
(35:50):
Jeff and good heavens, We've got like sixty incredible topics
that I think you all are going to enjoy so
very much. And it's just become like, I think the
highlight of of of all of our weeks is getting together,
you know, whenever we do these, I think we do
like about once a month. But I am so excited
about some of the show topics we have coming up, Ben,
(36:11):
I don't know about you. Yeah, very excited. And we're
gonna have some special guests coming uh for all the
all the TDZ fans stay tuned and uh, no spoilers,
But what's your favorite reality TV show? Folks keep that
answer in mind for some upcoming shows. But even as
(36:31):
reality ben I don't understand it's funny that they call
it reality TV in the first place. But let's get
back to Norma Jean and Private Conover. Hanover is so
taken with Norma Jean that he ends up taking leave
from the Army Air Corps and he spends two weeks
(36:52):
with her taking photos and teaching her how to pose
for the camera. This leads to her signing with something
called the Blue Book Modeling Agency in nineteen At this point,
she sometimes started calling herself Gene Norman. Before before she
gets to Marilyn Monroe, this photographer Conover has to go
to the Philippines. He's called a duty in the Philippines,
(37:15):
they lose contact and her career begins to take off
in nineteen fifty three, and that's when he learns this
guy Conover. He's like, oh wait, that's the lead I
took all those photos of I taught her to model.
Now her name is Marilyn Monroe and talking about being
a stand up person. I didn't know this Noel Max.
(37:38):
Marilyn Monroe spent her whole life crediting her success, a
large part of it to private conover and they even
met again on the set of a film you might
have heard of, Gentlemen preverb blonds. I can't say that
in a not somewhat sleezy voice. No, there's there's no way.
(37:58):
There's absolutely no way to do it. I think that's
pretty neat because she didn't have to do that, and
it's not like I mean, honestly, he just sort of
did a kindness. It's not like he gave her her
big break or anything exactly, but he just helped her
kind of find that path again. Like we're talking about
the top of the show. Sometimes little choices you make, uh,
and people you encounter can lead you to surprising places
(38:21):
that you never would have expected. And I think it's
important to be grateful for the people that you encounter
in your life that that help you along that path,
even if it's not like oh you you you gave
me my first job, or you you broke my career,
or this that and the other. Just people who you
learn from and um who are you know, kind to
you and give you the time and attention because, as
you always say, Ben, time is is the most valuable
(38:42):
commodity that anyone has. It's the only real currency. In
the end, I do want to shout out super producer
Max Williams, who next. You came through UH and you
pulled up you found the image that we're talking about
from the drone company and it's it's recognizably Marilyn Monroe.
(39:04):
You popped it here in the chat UH without blonde
hair yet and looking very much honestly, I'll say it
looking like it's kind of in a training video. She
looks like a scientist working in a video about how
to put propellers on properly. But I mean without without
all that glam and the makeup and the blonde, she's
(39:25):
almost unrecognizable. Yeah, you see, you see the the iconic
appearance really start to surface when she gets modeling gigs.
They start out as advertisements in Suffer men's magazines, but
her agency, blue Book Modeling decides. You know, they're talking
(39:47):
to it and they're saying, you know, Norma Jeane, you
have less of a figure for a fashion model and
more of a figure of a pent up, which sounds
not super great, maybe right, hearing that in the modern day.
But they they're telling her basically, she has the wrong
body to be a fashion model, and modeling itself can
(40:08):
be such a brutal industry. But the founder a blue book,
the founder Miss Emmiline snive Ley, which sounds like a
bad guy at a children's book boy, doesn't ever like
you know, tye, Penelope pitstop to the brain tracks, right, Uh,
she is actually not an evil children's book figure. She
(40:31):
introduces Norma Jean to Hollywood, to the movie industry, and
that's where her career takes off and how she becomes
the Marilyn Monroe people know today. Uh. And it's interesting
that for so long Monroe was treated as a stereotypical
(40:53):
like she was treated as a stereotypical kind of ditzy
person or a dumb blonde character. But looking at her life,
at this individual's life, you can see that she was
incredibly intelligent, right, and that stereotype is undeserved. It's just
nuts because you have to be pretty sharp to work
(41:15):
at a drone factory, right, yeah, you do. I mean
it's not I mean, you know, it's repetitive work, but
it's not mindless work. And there are lots of moving
parts and things that could be messed up, and you
have to know your business. I wanted to bring something
up Ben you mentioned, uh, you know, the idea of oh,
(41:35):
you got the body for a pinop or whatever, and
the kind of problematic nature of that kind of thing.
I watched um, uh, the first Pink Panther movie yesterday
on on streaming with my girlfriend, and I saw a
funny thing. You know how before movies come on, they
have those like warnings for different content things that you
should you know, look out for. This one had one
(41:55):
and and and then sometimes they're like abbreviated. It'll be like,
you know, uh, strong sexual content might be like SSC.
This one said, oh C, and that stands for outdated
cultural refa. That's kind of I think you could be.
You need to be a little well exactly, because that's
(42:18):
the thing. First of all, the very first scene in
in the Pink Panther movie is in like a kind
of a harem type situation in an East Indian palace
kind of situation, and that's handled with a good bit
of cultural insensitivity. But the thing that was really kind
of a lot was there's this part where this this
(42:39):
dude is making advances on this woman, and he essentially
breaks into a room under false pretenses and just throws
himself at her, and she's just so docile about it,
just like kind of like pushing him off, but also
like mainly just being like, oh no, no, I can't
right now because excuses. But like it's just the most
(43:00):
gross kind of me too thing I've ever seen. It
was really hard to watch. Heepe Lapu man very much.
That very much that and this, uh, this takes us
to another conversation. Different things We're going to explore in
future episodes. We have tons of other trivia that we
(43:21):
haven't gotten to. Uh. Lincoln right now remains the only
US president who have obtained a patent, so go you abe,
you know, uh, in addition to being president. That's a
cool thing. And here, you know, we're kind of on
the fence about this before we went into this episode.
But I think this is a series. I think we
(43:43):
can do more surprising former careers of notable public figures.
I completely agree. Maybe we'll workshop, like what the the
official title of the series is, we we've got a
bit of a history of introducing series and then it
just kind of abandoning them, but hey, it's our prerogative.
But now I love this one. I think there's so
many more. We did one with about like weird presidential pets.
(44:04):
You know that one was fun um, but now they're
This one is a there's a there's gold in them
hills in terms of like weird jobs that people that
were known for a one major thing have done in
their lives. I think we need to dig deeper into
this time, like legendary breakdanswer Joan of arc you know, uh,
the inventor of the worm. Totally she could. I was
(44:25):
about to say her worm was unparalleled, and then you
reminded me that it was in fact her very invention
likely uh you know, driven by the Word of God. Yeah,
she got into that part later. Uh so. Also sorry
to Kane Hendry, uh, who's considered the creator of the word.
(44:47):
But we have more surprising former careers ahead. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts, folks. We hope you enjoyed
this episode. Will be back later in the week with
some more surprising, ridiculous history. In the meantime, thanks of
course to Mr Max Williams. Thanks to composer Alex Williams, Noel,
(45:08):
Thanks to you. I'd also like to personally thank um
my old my old colleagues in the world of international affairs,
some of whom listen to this podcast. So that's where
I ended up. Guys, thanks for thanks for tuning in.
We have other people to thank. Do you think Jonathan
Strickland will be okay with being the villain in our
(45:30):
training videos? I mean, he's just he's sort of the
heel of the show. You know, if he was a wrestler,
he'd be the heel. He'd also be the villain. I mean,
we don't have to let him make him like sexually
harass anybody or anything, but he can at the very
least try to encourage somebody to do something that's morally
comprehensible in the workplace. So so I got the idea.
Have you guys ever seen the training video safety video
(45:53):
shake Hands with Danger? Yes? No, but I know that
like these kinds of institutional films were sometimes done by
big directors early in their career. I think that's one
of them, right, Um, I'm not sure about that, but
that is a very and uh, I think it's Hark Harvey.
I think it's like it's like one of his last
credited ones. But it is just like it's a horror film.
(46:13):
It is so bad. It's like it's like it's like
tighten this thing, or it's gonna rip your arm off,
and stuff that I'm thinking more kind of like Strickland
can be like the guy who like it, like cuts
the corner on some safety video and then get some
absolutely horrific results come to him. What do you guys think? Yeah,
I love it. He's our He's our Dudley, don't max uh.
(46:36):
I also, in full disclosure, have a long history with
casting Jonathan in villainous roles when I was when I
was heading up our video department, I would consistently go
to him and make him the villain. So, Jonathan, if
you're listening, thank you again. You're amazed on camera. Would
(46:57):
love to cast you and some other stuff. And I
hope that it's okay because I'm just now realizing you
were almost always the villain my bad and just to
double back really quickly. Her Carve, who directed Shake Hands
with Danger, also directed one of your favorite movies been
Carnival of Souls in the early sixties, and then went
on to do some of these institutional films, but there
(47:18):
there are a handful of directors that have some of
those on their IMDb s that maybe they wish would
get wiped off. Yeah, and do you even triple back
on this? If you want to learn more about her Carvey,
check out his episode that we did on Ephemeral where
we go from early to Carnival Souls toil afterwards that
like to stuff like check hands with danger and stuff beautiful,
(47:38):
great rack, beautiful in the meantime, Huge days, superducer, Max
Williams as always Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Christophraciotis
here in spirit Yes yes And thanks to Eve's Jeff
cot thinks to Gabe Lucier, thanks to our research associates
Jeff Partlett and Zach Williams no relation. Have a great week, folks.
(47:59):
We'll see you next time. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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