September 3, 2024 • 44 mins
Christina wasn't your average monarch of her day -- while many rulers sought to subjugate and terrorize their kingdoms, she sought to acquire knowledge, and to empower the public with information. Often called the "Minerva of the North," this ruler skillfully navigated treacherous geopolitical waters while also seeking to establish Stockholm as an international center of intellectual and philosophical thought. Eventually, she quit the job altogether.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's get a big shout out to
our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Max stops saying whoop, whoop, whooping it up too much.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I feel like you guys are jumping on the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
No jumping.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What do you mean We're bouncing and you see me
doing my karate moves. I'm just trying to get pumped.
I thought the mat cool moves. Max is getting whoops.
Ben's got his representing the Brown and acl hat on.
You guys know about the Brown, not me, the ups.
You were Noel Bro, that's me. I am Noel brown Man.
Not to be confused with ups, though it happens more
than you'd think.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
True? Always like where's my package, dude, I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Like, I'm not UPS, I'm Nol Brown And they're like,
I'm so confused?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Are you FedEx? And you're liked.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Some people only know how to relate to the world
in terms of delivery services, and I really fity those people, frankly,
but I also have empathy for them.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, empathy is important.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
This is also a great entry into a conversation we're
going to have today about monarchies and how sometimes people
at the top might have a little bit of an ego. Yes,
speaking of well adjusted folks, my name is Ben Bole
(01:54):
and yeah, and your name is ridiculous historian. Yes, you
were speaking to the individual you out there there, And
speaking of empathy, why don't you have a little for
us and the show and leave us a five star
review on Apple Podcasts Because that would be cool and
it makes us happy, and it keeps the show in
a discoverable form so people can find it, and it
makes our bosses like us better, so do us as solid.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Maybe if we get some really fun ones up there,
we'll like read them on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Hey. Also, guys, I don't know if we're going to
keep this on air, but we're not joking in our
shows when we say our bosses will check in with us.
I wrote to the King of Podcasting and see the
King of Cartoons as well well. He definitely visits Berning Man.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I believe the Burning Man is going on as we speak.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Wrote to the guy and asked him if he had
any advice about getting a pilot's license.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Because, of course the King of podcasting has a pilot's license. Yes, yeah,
we are, of course talking about our benevolent Lord, Robert
Pitchman Esquire, who's actually really cool dude.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
We both met him in person a couple of times,
and he's not nearly as scary as one might think
a king of a thing as huge as podcasting might be.
We are, in fact talking today about cabbages and kings
and even queens.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
In fact, that's mainly what we're on about today.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Could you open with this quote the Max found us
from King James the sixth.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
M hm, the beloved King James the sixth quote unquote.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Sure, he sums it up thusly, the state of monarchy
is the supremest thing upon earth.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
He seems to be a fan, for.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Kings are not only God's lieutenants upon earth and sits
upon God's throne, but even by God himself they are
called gods.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
King James, how could you possibly know that?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
All?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right? This is the Bible king, right, Yeah, this is the.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Guy who looked at an ancient religion by this point
in his life and said, I have some notes.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yeah, I could do better to get even more into
the weeds about how where James was. James was Scottish,
so he was Catholic, and so everyone thought that he
was going to bring back Catholicism after Henry Yeth and
gotten rid of Catholicism. But he's like, he actually, wait,
there's a religion I could put my name on.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Cool, I'll have that please.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
And he was so unpopular that his son, who carried
on his legend, got beheaded.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, on purpose, on purpose, totally. Well.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
The funny thing is, though, what that quote might belie
is that today we're actually talking to some degree about
a benevolent monarch, relatively speaking, you know, one who had
somewhat more of a measured approach to ruling.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Mm hmm, yeah, agreed. We're doing a bit of a
bait and switch with noble intent. There was, around the
same time our buddy Jimmy was ruling his throne, there
(05:05):
was another person, another monarch, female Christina, described as a
colorful figure and a subject of fascination by the Library
of Congress. Let's go to Sweden. We'll find that Queen
Christina was born in December of sixteen, twenty six. And
(05:31):
just so you know, folks, back in the sixteen hundreds,
in every part of Europe it sort of sucked to
be a woman.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Imagine that you're saying people weren't treating women with the
utmost respect and chivalry and moral integrity.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Perish the thought. I'll tell you what's funny.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's almost even indicated to some degree by the way
this person is named in history. You know, usually when
you see king's name, they have like a house attached
to their name, or they have like you know, it's
like front and center. But when we see Christina written about,
she's just Christina of Sweden, which is kind of badass
in a way, but also makes you wonder there was
(06:12):
that intentional as to not connect a woman to a
great house because she was a member of the House
of Vasa. But you don't really see that in the
reporting in the historical records very much. But you are right,
she was highly educated. Ben she received many of the
benefits that only a male heir we get. But since
(06:34):
she wasn't only child, she was the only option, and
it was determined that she would one day rule Sweden.
So she became quite enlightened, let us say, from a
very early age through studies of the arts and politics
and poetry and philosophy and all of that. She had
some pretty big names in her tutorial Bullpen and her motto,
(06:57):
in fact, was pretty awesome. It kind of applies today,
or I wish it would, maybe more so, wisdom supports
the nation.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
This amazing character did something that many monarchs back then
and indeed today, would find ridiculous. She decided to walk
away from power. Now, how did this happen? To understand that,
we got to learn a little bit more about this monarch.
(07:28):
She's the daughter of King Gustav second Adolph and Maria
Eleanora of Brandenburg. This name will sound familiar because we
mentioned Eleanora in a previous episode not too long ago.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Turn your mind in your podcast browser to April of
twenty twenty two, the year of our Lord. Sadly, though,
Christina did lose her father at a very young age,
and Britannica had this to say about that sad event.
After her father died in the Battle of Lutzen, Christina,
his only heir, became Queen elect before the age of six.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
By his order.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
She was educated as a prince with the learned theologian
Johannes Mathai as her tutor, hopefully getting that right. M
A T T h Iae. I'm thinking Matthi is probably right.
Five regents, headed by the Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna, governed the country.
(08:33):
We got another real fun name coming up. Man, then
I'm gonna let you give a role too in the
old pronunciation hole.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Now, this is going to be one of the points
in the show where I gently, diplomatically with great affection,
roastar buddy Max.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Max, you get the joke I wrote, right, Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I get the joke such that I am requiring you
to explain it on air. There are millions of people listening.
They want to know why you, out of all the
words you could have written, you said our Christina was
an intellectual person and you, out of all the words
(09:19):
you could have used, chose this one.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Was it a clock bisc Vieah? Yeah, So for for
those who are wondering, if you type in Swedish cookie
into Google, this is the first one that comes up.
So she's she's a smart cookie is what I wrote.
But she's an intellectual. Whatever this word.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Is, I don't want to offend anyone, but I would
conjecture that it's it's c h O, K L A,
D B I, S k v I e R. And
it's funny because, like in a lot of I guess
European languages, you have sort of similar sounding words like
struggle is chocolate and some form of biscuit is a cookie.
(10:05):
So I'm thinking this means chocolate cookie. I'm just guessing.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
But smart cookie is a joke, right, like a masterful
macarn or macaroon.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I love, but I do feel like this particular word
might imply it is of the smart chocolate variety.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
I believe you are correct. Yes, none of this matters
in the story, but I have to put it in.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's okay.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I thought it was good.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
It's a fun word. It's a fun word to say,
and I think we all did our best.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But she was indeed that she was very, very bright,
and that was bolstered by the fact that she was
surrounded by the most high quality of tutors.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, she had opportunities that would not be available to
most other people in Northern Europe at the time. If
you go to her biography in King's College, you will
find that Christina was or ascended to her thrown in
sixteen forty four. She opposed contemporary political powers, and she
(11:08):
did so against the advice of her keepers. There were
a bunch of people always saying, you know, there's always
some version of Henry Kissinger, right, especially the Heights of Power.
So there were a lot of folks saying, oh, look
at this, it's a chick. We will tell them what
(11:32):
to do in r puppets, Yes, right, and she said, nah, nah.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I'm gonna go my own way, right Ben, you know,
and it's his history. We do always see those kind
of toxic whisperer type figures. To take it to fiction,
which is often inspired by history and Lord of the Rings,
you have the Grima worm tongue character that's sort of
like whispering evil deeds into the king's ear, you know,
who is of course under an evil spell by the
(12:02):
White wizard Sorrowmon. But in a Game of Thrones you
might have a character, for example, like little Finger. Do
you do you see Kissinger. I'm to take it aside
and have this Kissinger corner here. Do you see him
as that kind of figure sort of this sort of
like toxic power behind the throne, kind of like whispering,
you know, sweet nothings into the ruler's ears.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And like pulling strings from behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'm met of once. I don't think he would describe
himself as toxic. I know he wouldn't describe himself as ToxS.
But we are we are talking history here.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
History seems to definitely describe him as toxic, as do
you quite often when you bring him up.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, terrible guy.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
No, I'm with you, man, but I'm just saying I'm
historically speaking, Like, you see these types of figures all
the time, and Christina wasn't having it. You know, you
would think that because of her gender, that it would
be really easy for her to be manipulated, simply because
it was just kind of the way women were taught
to behave to be docile, you know, to defer to
(13:05):
the will of men. But because she was so highly educated,
and it doesn't seem like her education was like censored
or you know, compartmentalized, she was armed with some serious
power in the form of a very sharp intellect.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, and she was a consummate politician. She was able
to navigate very difficult things, especially in a tense environment,
and she ran into financial issues with with her kingdom.
(13:42):
But she did also prevent a couple of things that
would have been for these people at this time on
the level of a world war. She she was the
kind of person who, to your point, Noel, the kind
(14:02):
of person who considered being a monarch. She thought of
it like it was her day job. Her main thing
was learning more about the world in which she lived.
She got up at five am roughly every morning. She
would find people that she had heard about or folks
(14:26):
that wrote things that interested her, and she would say,
come hang out, Oh what's your name? Take heartes? Is
it okay if I call you Renee?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I also think, and I also am, and she certainly
was ben I think another thing that we see throughout
history is that and actually cribbing this a little bit
from the season finale of the House of the Dragon.
But those who seek power and thirst for it are
often the ones that deserve it and are capable of
(14:59):
wielding it the least. So someone like Christina, who kind
of has it foisted upon her because there's no other options.
She isn't someone who was just craving that power, and
therefore she handled it with an appropriate amount of respect
and deference. And she wanted to do good, I think,
and to rule in a magnanimous way, and I.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Think it's pretty rare.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think, as we've indicated already, that this is the
attitude taken on by a monarch who so often are
just entitled monstrosities.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, ooh, entitled monstrosities. That's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I come out with a good one every now and again.
But Ben, what you say, we're approaching something resembling a
world war.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
This doesn't sound good.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
No, she navigated and de escalated geopolitical tensions of the
time that could have led to kinetic war in a
very bad way. As a matter of fact, the ability
and diplomatic acumen she exhibited inspired people to call her
(16:10):
the Minerva of the North. Minerva is a reference to
the ancient Greco Roman god of wisdom and justice and
law and victory.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
But she'll definitely throw a spirit through you, but also warfare.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, she'll put a boot up your ass if you
mess with her country.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
No, it's true, and it's a really great nickname.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Half of the times you get these rulers with nicknames
implying their greed, bloodthirstiness or ethel. He was unprepared, he
didn't do his homewark. But Minerva of the North that
is a show of great respect historically, because as we know,
these nicknames, they don't really stick until after the fact.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
The historian looked on her fondly, especially.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Considering the stupid system that is monarchy, right, not good?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I think can we all kind of agree on that
that monarchy bad? That? Yeah, I think that's not a
hot take anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I've been on record with it.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, But I just mean, you know, like having the
most important, powerful job in the land based solely on
your parental heritage.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I guess right. It just seems like a losing recipe.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And we see it time and time again throughout history,
and of course here in America we see it in
another form, you know, a monarchy by a different name
at times with political dynasties, which I know you also
have a beef with them.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, I would say it's less of a beef and
more of an observation that history will find relevant. I
would also point to Max on this one. Theurg's got
to by the time they fell, a lot of those
folks were in charge of things, and they were physically
(18:11):
incapable of pronouncing their last name.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Oh god, it was it was. I read the obituary
of the autopsy of the last one. I don't think
we could do an episode.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I don't think we should.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Are we talking because of degradation over generation breeding?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Yeah, the Habsburgs were like the poster children of.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
They were like the human equivalent of the bulldog.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yes, sorry, no shade to the bulldog, but that is
a troubled beast that probably should not exist.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
They came for wolves. What we're seeing here. The reason
where stable the cartoonish nature of monarchy is to show
you that for most of the people alive at the
(19:10):
time in this kingdom, our pal Christina was like them
winning a lottery. Right. A person who is automatically assumed
to be in charge of the country also turns out
to be very well read, to be intellectual, to exercise empathy.
(19:36):
This is the person who created the first Swedish newspaper,
or allowed it to exist, and mass media was a
very controversial idea at the time. Also the first monarch
in Sweden to say, hey, maybe we should let all
of the kids go to school?
Speaker 3 (19:58):
What what?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I love the italics on that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, But the idea of educating you know, the plebs
for lack of a better term, historically has been a
little risky because you want to keep your underlings, the
people that you rule over, ignorant. So this is an
absolutely bombastically progressive idea for the time to jump in.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I mean, if you want to think of another similar,
same time period, bad government design theology. The theology works
often when the masses are not educated. Yeah, so the
person who is, like, you know, the divine leader is
the only one who can read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
End allbe all religion as a stand in for education.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
In many ways, the argument of intercession shout out to
Martin Luther right that one time he got super pissed
and changed history and created the Protestant species of Christianity.
So our pal Christina, after about ten years of being
(21:11):
the monarch, she says, you know what I've given you schools,
I've helped newspapers, I've helped create mass media in this country.
And I quit. I have learned enough about monarchy to
think the game is rigged. I'm just going to get
(21:34):
out of here. I'm going to The fancy word for
this is abdicate.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, abdicate being a fancy word for stepping aside right,
and it usually it implies agency of the one abdicating,
though there certainly can be behind the scenes factors that
might force someone to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Politically interesting that you say so, because one of the
reasons cited for this abdicationation was the idea of illness.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yes, indeed, once again from our dear friends at Britannica.
We're actually very close with the managing staff. It's not true.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
We'd like to be.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
We reach out to us Britannica peeps. We want to
go have drinks, Yes, goes Dustly. Christina's abdication after ten
years of rule shocked and confused the Christian world. She
pleaded that she was ill and that the burden of
ruling was too heavy for a woman. The reasons, however,
are unclear and still disputed. Now, I would say if
(22:36):
that were the case, you know, this is certainly you
know heavy hangs the head that.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Wears the crown and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
This is a person who clearly comes from a place
of relative for the time, goodness and kindness and you know, learnedness.
And it can be really stressful when you're in that
situation and you start to realize that this is not
the way of the world, the system that I am
a part of doesn't think like me. And while you are,
(23:03):
you know, the kind of last word, there are always
gonna be those little fingers and those grimo worm tongues,
you know, sort of whispering in your ear and trying
to head you off at the pass every chance you get.
I imagine that could be incredibly exhausting. And for someone
like Christina, who is a philosophically minded, learn an individual,
I could think that could really cause some mental strife
(23:26):
that might require a step back. And this exactly is
the kind of person that I think would do that.
But I too am suspicious. Ben here, I too am suspicious.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Here's one you might enjoy your mileage, may veris that's
that's for the Game of Thrones folks. Next, Can I
get a like a dumb joke sort of paradidtal on
a drum.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
A rim shut.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Yeah, the bad joke drum that I have saved and
marked easy to find for all the times we make
bad jokes on the show. You want that one? Yeah,
it is bad joke dot wave.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
No it's not.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
It is bad joke drum dot wave.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But yes, all right, so this also, I love what
you're bringing up here.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
This is.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Loosely, we could loosely describe this as the experience of
Poland as a country in many, many eras through history.
Christina was dealing with a situation called contemporarily the Polish question,
(24:36):
and it was not a metaphor. It was a geopolitical concern.
The thoughts of abdicating the throne began back when her
buddy Renee that we mentioned earlier, he got pneumonia. Yeah,
he coughed and therefore he was dead.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I studied him in college. I really do like
the work of de gard It's very interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I think so as well. And he died after having
heavily influenced this monarch. And he's one of the guys
who pitched the idea of building an institution of higher learning,
and she was very much on board with this. Christina
(25:28):
would sit through, you know, various as he said, various
as he said, little fingers and whisperers, and then she
would sort of fast forward past their concerns and say, hey,
we should start a university. That guy who died of pneumonia,
(25:52):
he was onto something cool. She also she also had
to continually deal with council what do they call it
in Song of Ice and Fire.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
This small council.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, she had to deal with those folks who were
old dudes, and they were continually trying to speak down
to her.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
It sounds like, oh and sorry to keep referencing Song
of Ice and Fire stuff. And while some people maybe
aren't as hot about the House of Dragons show as
they are about the early parts of Game of Thrones,
I do think that the dragon Queen character in House
of Dragons is a pretty good parallel for this this
(26:36):
character historically speaking, because she is kind and benevolent and
educated and diplomatic, and she's also surrounded with a bunch
of BROI douchey dudes who are trying to you know,
quagmire her every chance they get.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Ooh, quagmire as a verb. Nice. Also, this council of dudes,
this bro council, would not let her quit. She said,
I want to abdicate the throne, and they said, oh
ha ha ha ha, no worries. And she suffered a
severe breakdown. According to history, I suspect a conspiracy because
(27:16):
she was confined to her bedchambers. I think she did
not want to play the role of public figure and
mascot and I think she was punished for having a conscience.
She also, being the queen, was allowed to ask for
(27:40):
their version of therapist right, which would be religious intercessors attendance.
There was one guy, father Antonio Messido, who would come
and visit her frequently. This brewly small council was worried
get this. They were worried that she would turn Catholic.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
And to jump in real quick. One note that I
did find that was very interesting is how her father
died was fighting Catholics. These people hated Catholics.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, they hated Catholics.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, but despite the you know, whispers and screams, they
got progressively more desperate of Christina's counsel.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
She did decide to put.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Her time as Queen of Sweden to an end, and
she then decided to in sixteen fifty three leave Sweden.
She knew that the kind of administrative I guess process
of filing the paperwork or whatever for her abdication was
going to take some time weeks, months possibly, and she
(28:50):
was ready to get this done. So she reached out
to her cousin who was next in line, Charles the
tenth Gustavus to Base offer him the job or just
make sure he was down with it.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
He was game and she was out.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, you need an exit plan, right because otherwise this
person disappearing from Sweden would trigger an enormously tragic civil
war because other people would race to practice usurpation.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Right again, Song of Ice and Fires, Well, the whole
series is about people scrapping for that, you know, I
mean it really when there's no clear line of ascension
I guess is the term, then you got people coming
out of the woodwork, and it can really.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Cause serious, serious loss of life.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Right. Or in another case in the Elder Scrolls, when
Martin Septim crushes the Amulet of the Kings and becomes Acotash,
there's no heir to the throne, so the empire paro
kind of civil war enticed media. A war lord just
became emperor.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think that's what most people think think of Max
when they're trying to you know.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Immediately, immediately, that's the best part of the show so far.
So we also know that, look, let's picture this our
pal Christina. Right as we're saying, just to recap, she
contacts her cousin to make sure someone will be a
(30:22):
figurehead for the monarchy at the time. And then she
goes she goes on an adventure that I genuinely believe
is under reported in history and could be an awesome
(30:42):
story for our nascent, emergent ridiculous history cinema. She goes
around disguised as a night in the sixteen hundreds, and
then she arrives in Rome and hangs out with Pope
Alexander the seventh and he sees this not disgraced but
(31:11):
definitely a wall monarch, and and he goes, Oh, let
me welcome you in. I I hear you like Catholics.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
I was.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I was about to say, like, she's sort of known
as being Catholic curious right at this point.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Wow, Catholic curious. I mean, it's the thing.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
You know, people were concerned about it, and their fears
certainly weren't allayed by her like fleeing directly to Rome
into the arms of the pope and being like feted
with luxurious dinners and red carpets, you know, galas or whatever.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Let's to say she wasn't curious, Well, sure, but you
know that's how it starts.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Have you tried it? Orgelon, I I imagine you've read
the books, and you maybe under the impression that we
live in a state of piety and poverty. But also
the boy, have you tried an ordol on?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, for anyone that doesn't remember the order lane is the.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Tiny hollow boned bird that was a delicacy so decadent
in those days that when you consumed it, it's supposed
to be all in one bite. I believe it's fried
in butter and whatever. You're supposed to put a like
a like a silk napkin over your head to hide
your your depravity from God.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Right, an omniscient, omnipotent creator.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That you can pickaboo with. This is a sucker for loopholes.
I'm not here.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
God has no object permanence in this scenario.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So as as we're saying this is a sensation in Rome, right,
this is this is like if your favorite American president
suddenly moved to.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Russia, but you know, probably not the best of pr
stories back home in Sweden, right, because I mean she's
no longer the ruler, but she still represents the country
at least symbolically, right.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Right, And she can't not do politics because she's very
gifted in this regard This is again a quintessential textbook diplomat.
She starts negotiations with the Chief Minister of France, Cardinal Mazarin,
and then she also talks to the Duke Diamodena to
(33:44):
take control of Naples. At this time, Naples was controlled
by Spain, and her pitch was for a person who
abandoned monarchy.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
This is weird.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Her pitch was, I'll just beat Queen and Naples, you
know what I mean. Not my first roudeo.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
But it's like, let me clean up shop, get things
in a good place, and then I'll abdicate again, this
time to a French prince.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, that's the idea, and the scheme did not work out.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Good call call it what it is.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, Although wouldn't you say this is kind of a
like is she is she manipulating or is she really
looking out for like the best scenario for Europe?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Unclear?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
I would say she was known to live a very
lavish life, and a lot of reports said she for
many periods of time while she was living in Rome,
she was living basically, she was falling in debt.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
High on the hog.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
She needed a grift, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Okay, money all right, So you know less.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
It's so eas to look back through history when you
see kind of a good apple to sort of like
give them just all the praise because it's such a rarity.
But history is also rife with these things we call
humans that are very imperfect and can he can be
a victim of their own foibles. So while she may
have had some good qualities, and may have done some
good things and exhibited some humility, this doesn't seem like
(35:23):
the best continuation of those themes.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
She also put out a hit on several people. The
most famous one was she went to the government and said,
I need you to kill this guy. He's a snitch.
He is lying to the Pope about me. And they
asked why should we kill him, and she said, I'm
(35:48):
not taking questions, just get it done. Yeah, And everybody
in France was amazed that she would say this. The
Pope no longer trusted her. The Pope was like, this
lady's gonna kill anyone, you know, that's kind of wild.
(36:11):
That's a verbatim quote from the Pope.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
It does seem like she was going off the rails
a little bit. So she did. However, despite all of
this scandal, lived to become one of the most important
historical figures in terms of her influence on politics of
this era. She continued to be friends with further future popes.
(36:34):
She did continue to spread her love of the finer things,
the arts, philosophy, poetry, literature, you know, all across Europe.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Also, she became this sort of thought leader, right, which
seems to be her ultimate aspiration, her taste in the arts,
her patronage of these things. She collected paintings that became
(37:06):
beyond price, right, pieces of human civilization. Also created spaces
for what we would call salons or hangouts, right. She
invented cool coffee shops without coffee, where people would hang
out and talk about their big ideas like de Carte,
(37:28):
you know, like this is one best example of this
would be the Arcadia Academy, which she founded and it
is still in Rome today. I hear you can walk in.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I'd be cool.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I really would love to visit Rome and something on
my She was also a mean you really kind of
consider her almost a taste maker in a way. She really,
you know, those paintings that we're talking about were so
valuable because her influence caused them to appreciate in value
because she sort of set the tone of what was
popular in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Hm, hm, And she also set, I would argue, a
pretty cool precedent or participated in a precedent that is
important today abdicating power. There there is a controversial history
of monarchs stepping down. Just to be clear, folks, most
(38:23):
monarchs in that imperfect system tend to die in office
or you know, whether it's you know, whether they shut
themselves to death or whether they whether they meet the
wrong end of the game.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
Series, we have a series of people dying bad ways.
We have one episode of seriously only dedicated to be
able to himself to death.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
He did, he did, That's how he died.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I do think it's an interesting parallel to what's
going on in you know, kind of modern political life.
Is like, whatever your political persuasions are, and whatever you
think of this action, the fact that Joe Biden stepped
down and stepped aside is interesting historically, you know, whether
you think it was a magnanimous act, you know, or
whether you think he was like you know, behind the scenes,
(39:15):
elbowed out. It's not something that happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Also to that point, if we're speaking of current parallels,
I want to shout out the King of Bhuton, who
went from an absolute monarchy to a democracy and did
it on purpose. That is the most baller fucking move.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, it's definitely not the way things usually go.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Usually goes the other way around.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think maybe we do a ridiculous history of Bhuton
at some point. That place is amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
It's very much in your wheelhouse, Ben, and I will
follow you wherever you may lead and happily learn a
lot alongside the ridiculous historians out there amongst us.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Well, let me follow you here. How do we wrap
up this amazing story of the Minerva of the North.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
A couple other interesting things that she did. She helped
establish the first public opera house in Rome. She was
also a patron of some very big names in classical
music that you might be familiar with. Alessandro Scarlatti, who
actually became her choir master, and Arcangelo Corelli, who was
(40:34):
another composer. If you grew up playing an orchestraser know
much about classical we probably know most of these names.
He actually directed her orchestras sculptor by the name of
Giovanni Bernini who I have heard of that I'm not
mega mega familiar with. She was a massive fan of
books and had a huge library of books and manuscripts
(40:54):
that is actually now held in the Vatican Library.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
She also said, don't pick on people for their ethnicity,
or for their religion, their creed, whatever. She supported the
idea of intellectual revolution, that's what I would call it.
She wanted people to be empowered with opportunities to discover information.
(41:23):
And she yes had her ups and downs. She definitely
grifted a couple of times. If we're just being honest.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
You boiled it down perfectly, Ben.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
I mean, it really all comes down to what was
her motto Ben at the beginning of the episode that
we mentioned, wisdom supports the nation. I think that really
held true for the most part throughout her career in politics.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
And as a very important patron of the arts.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, and she didn't take mess. She took no guff.
That is apparent. When she passed away in sixty eighty nine,
she was entuned in Saint Peter's Basilica.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Now I did one.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, I don't know how much you guys study tombs,
but that's like the nice neighborhood as far as burials go.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Yeah, but yeah, but that's Minerva of the North, the
Swedish Queen who was so enlightened she quit being the
queen on.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Purpose, on purpose. Thank you as always to our super
producer mister Max Williams, Thanks also to his brother Alex Williams,
who composed this soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Was air Horns for Alex's team Hughes thanks to Chris
Frosciota's and he was Jeff Coats here in Spirra Jonathan Strickland, the.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Quiz thro AJ Jacobs, the Puzzler A J. Bahamas Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I'm not mistaken, yes, and we will never explain it,
but do tune in with her. Pal Aj. What a delightful,
brilliant guy, you.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Know, a rightly fellow, real mischievous little scamp.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, he's got to shine to him. He's the type
of dude that if he were if he were put
in a monarchical situation, he would spend his time educating
the kingdom and then he would leave.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, that's very unbranded.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Lest we not also heap compliments on our buddy Jonathan Strickland,
the quist.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
That guy is pure evil.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, one hundred percent. He wrote to me earlier and
said I think democracy is overrated. And I said, what
do you mean? And he was like, I think I
would be better as a king than a podcaster.
Speaker 5 (43:44):
I don't know. He's pretty weird. I feel like he
want to be in a monarchy, that he would want
to be one of the peasants, which is what he is.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Classic, and he's got to shine too. It comes from
his bald head.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
There it is. Thanks for tuning in, everyone.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
See you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's get a big shout out to
our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Max stops saying whoop, whoop, whooping it up too much.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
I feel like you guys are jumping on the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
No jumping.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What do you mean We're bouncing and you see me
doing my karate moves. I'm just trying to get pumped.
I thought the mat cool moves. Max is getting whoops.
Ben's got his representing the Brown and acl hat on.
You guys know about the Brown, not me, the ups.
You were Noel Bro, that's me. I am Noel brown Man.
Not to be confused with ups, though it happens more
than you'd think.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
True? Always like where's my package, dude, I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Like, I'm not UPS, I'm Nol Brown And they're like,
I'm so confused?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Are you FedEx? And you're liked.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Some people only know how to relate to the world
in terms of delivery services, and I really fity those people, frankly,
but I also have empathy for them.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, empathy is important.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
This is also a great entry into a conversation we're
going to have today about monarchies and how sometimes people
at the top might have a little bit of an ego. Yes,
speaking of well adjusted folks, my name is Ben Bole
(01:54):
and yeah, and your name is ridiculous historian. Yes, you
were speaking to the individual you out there there, And
speaking of empathy, why don't you have a little for
us and the show and leave us a five star
review on Apple Podcasts Because that would be cool and
it makes us happy, and it keeps the show in
a discoverable form so people can find it, and it
makes our bosses like us better, so do us as solid.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Maybe if we get some really fun ones up there,
we'll like read them on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Hey. Also, guys, I don't know if we're going to
keep this on air, but we're not joking in our
shows when we say our bosses will check in with us.
I wrote to the King of Podcasting and see the
King of Cartoons as well well. He definitely visits Berning Man.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I believe the Burning Man is going on as we speak.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Wrote to the guy and asked him if he had
any advice about getting a pilot's license.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Because, of course the King of podcasting has a pilot's license. Yes, yeah,
we are, of course talking about our benevolent Lord, Robert
Pitchman Esquire, who's actually really cool dude.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
We both met him in person a couple of times,
and he's not nearly as scary as one might think
a king of a thing as huge as podcasting might be.
We are, in fact talking today about cabbages and kings
and even queens.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
In fact, that's mainly what we're on about today.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Could you open with this quote the Max found us
from King James the sixth.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
M hm, the beloved King James the sixth quote unquote.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Sure, he sums it up thusly, the state of monarchy
is the supremest thing upon earth.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
He seems to be a fan, for.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Kings are not only God's lieutenants upon earth and sits
upon God's throne, but even by God himself they are
called gods.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
King James, how could you possibly know that?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
All?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right? This is the Bible king, right, Yeah, this is the.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Guy who looked at an ancient religion by this point
in his life and said, I have some notes.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yeah, I could do better to get even more into
the weeds about how where James was. James was Scottish,
so he was Catholic, and so everyone thought that he
was going to bring back Catholicism after Henry Yeth and
gotten rid of Catholicism. But he's like, he actually, wait,
there's a religion I could put my name on.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Cool, I'll have that please.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
And he was so unpopular that his son, who carried
on his legend, got beheaded.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, on purpose, on purpose, totally. Well.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
The funny thing is, though, what that quote might belie
is that today we're actually talking to some degree about
a benevolent monarch, relatively speaking, you know, one who had
somewhat more of a measured approach to ruling.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Mm hmm, yeah, agreed. We're doing a bit of a
bait and switch with noble intent. There was, around the
same time our buddy Jimmy was ruling his throne, there
(05:05):
was another person, another monarch, female Christina, described as a
colorful figure and a subject of fascination by the Library
of Congress. Let's go to Sweden. We'll find that Queen
Christina was born in December of sixteen, twenty six. And
(05:31):
just so you know, folks, back in the sixteen hundreds,
in every part of Europe it sort of sucked to
be a woman.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Imagine that you're saying people weren't treating women with the
utmost respect and chivalry and moral integrity.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Perish the thought. I'll tell you what's funny.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's almost even indicated to some degree by the way
this person is named in history. You know, usually when
you see king's name, they have like a house attached
to their name, or they have like you know, it's
like front and center. But when we see Christina written about,
she's just Christina of Sweden, which is kind of badass
in a way, but also makes you wonder there was
(06:12):
that intentional as to not connect a woman to a
great house because she was a member of the House
of Vasa. But you don't really see that in the
reporting in the historical records very much. But you are right,
she was highly educated. Ben she received many of the
benefits that only a male heir we get. But since
(06:34):
she wasn't only child, she was the only option, and
it was determined that she would one day rule Sweden.
So she became quite enlightened, let us say, from a
very early age through studies of the arts and politics
and poetry and philosophy and all of that. She had
some pretty big names in her tutorial Bullpen and her motto,
(06:57):
in fact, was pretty awesome. It kind of applies today,
or I wish it would, maybe more so, wisdom supports
the nation.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
This amazing character did something that many monarchs back then
and indeed today, would find ridiculous. She decided to walk
away from power. Now, how did this happen? To understand that,
we got to learn a little bit more about this monarch.
(07:28):
She's the daughter of King Gustav second Adolph and Maria
Eleanora of Brandenburg. This name will sound familiar because we
mentioned Eleanora in a previous episode not too long ago.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Turn your mind in your podcast browser to April of
twenty twenty two, the year of our Lord. Sadly, though,
Christina did lose her father at a very young age,
and Britannica had this to say about that sad event.
After her father died in the Battle of Lutzen, Christina,
his only heir, became Queen elect before the age of six.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
By his order.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
She was educated as a prince with the learned theologian
Johannes Mathai as her tutor, hopefully getting that right. M
A T T h Iae. I'm thinking Matthi is probably right.
Five regents, headed by the Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna, governed the country.
(08:33):
We got another real fun name coming up. Man, then
I'm gonna let you give a role too in the
old pronunciation hole.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Now, this is going to be one of the points
in the show where I gently, diplomatically with great affection,
roastar buddy Max.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Max, you get the joke I wrote, right, Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I get the joke such that I am requiring you
to explain it on air. There are millions of people listening.
They want to know why you, out of all the
words you could have written, you said our Christina was
an intellectual person and you, out of all the words
(09:19):
you could have used, chose this one.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Was it a clock bisc Vieah? Yeah, So for for
those who are wondering, if you type in Swedish cookie
into Google, this is the first one that comes up.
So she's she's a smart cookie is what I wrote.
But she's an intellectual. Whatever this word.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Is, I don't want to offend anyone, but I would
conjecture that it's it's c h O, K L A,
D B I, S k v I e R. And
it's funny because, like in a lot of I guess
European languages, you have sort of similar sounding words like
struggle is chocolate and some form of biscuit is a cookie.
(10:05):
So I'm thinking this means chocolate cookie. I'm just guessing.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
But smart cookie is a joke, right, like a masterful
macarn or macaroon.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I love, but I do feel like this particular word
might imply it is of the smart chocolate variety.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
I believe you are correct. Yes, none of this matters
in the story, but I have to put it in.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's okay.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I thought it was good.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
It's a fun word. It's a fun word to say,
and I think we all did our best.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
But she was indeed that she was very, very bright,
and that was bolstered by the fact that she was
surrounded by the most high quality of tutors.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, she had opportunities that would not be available to
most other people in Northern Europe at the time. If
you go to her biography in King's College, you will
find that Christina was or ascended to her thrown in
sixteen forty four. She opposed contemporary political powers, and she
(11:08):
did so against the advice of her keepers. There were
a bunch of people always saying, you know, there's always
some version of Henry Kissinger, right, especially the Heights of Power.
So there were a lot of folks saying, oh, look
at this, it's a chick. We will tell them what
(11:32):
to do in r puppets, Yes, right, and she said, nah, nah.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
I'm gonna go my own way, right Ben, you know,
and it's his history. We do always see those kind
of toxic whisperer type figures. To take it to fiction,
which is often inspired by history and Lord of the Rings,
you have the Grima worm tongue character that's sort of
like whispering evil deeds into the king's ear, you know,
who is of course under an evil spell by the
(12:02):
White wizard Sorrowmon. But in a Game of Thrones you
might have a character, for example, like little Finger. Do
you do you see Kissinger. I'm to take it aside
and have this Kissinger corner here. Do you see him
as that kind of figure sort of this sort of
like toxic power behind the throne, kind of like whispering,
you know, sweet nothings into the ruler's ears.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And like pulling strings from behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I'm met of once. I don't think he would describe
himself as toxic. I know he wouldn't describe himself as ToxS.
But we are we are talking history here.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
History seems to definitely describe him as toxic, as do
you quite often when you bring him up.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, terrible guy.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
No, I'm with you, man, but I'm just saying I'm
historically speaking, Like, you see these types of figures all
the time, and Christina wasn't having it. You know, you
would think that because of her gender, that it would
be really easy for her to be manipulated, simply because
it was just kind of the way women were taught
to behave to be docile, you know, to defer to
(13:05):
the will of men. But because she was so highly educated,
and it doesn't seem like her education was like censored
or you know, compartmentalized, she was armed with some serious
power in the form of a very sharp intellect.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, and she was a consummate politician. She was able
to navigate very difficult things, especially in a tense environment,
and she ran into financial issues with with her kingdom.
(13:42):
But she did also prevent a couple of things that
would have been for these people at this time on
the level of a world war. She she was the
kind of person who, to your point, Noel, the kind
(14:02):
of person who considered being a monarch. She thought of
it like it was her day job. Her main thing
was learning more about the world in which she lived.
She got up at five am roughly every morning. She
would find people that she had heard about or folks
(14:26):
that wrote things that interested her, and she would say,
come hang out, Oh what's your name? Take heartes? Is
it okay if I call you Renee?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I also think, and I also am, and she certainly
was ben I think another thing that we see throughout
history is that and actually cribbing this a little bit
from the season finale of the House of the Dragon.
But those who seek power and thirst for it are
often the ones that deserve it and are capable of
(14:59):
wielding it the least. So someone like Christina, who kind
of has it foisted upon her because there's no other options.
She isn't someone who was just craving that power, and
therefore she handled it with an appropriate amount of respect
and deference. And she wanted to do good, I think,
and to rule in a magnanimous way, and I.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Think it's pretty rare.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I think, as we've indicated already, that this is the
attitude taken on by a monarch who so often are
just entitled monstrosities.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, ooh, entitled monstrosities. That's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I come out with a good one every now and again.
But Ben, what you say, we're approaching something resembling a
world war.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
This doesn't sound good.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
No, she navigated and de escalated geopolitical tensions of the
time that could have led to kinetic war in a
very bad way. As a matter of fact, the ability
and diplomatic acumen she exhibited inspired people to call her
(16:10):
the Minerva of the North. Minerva is a reference to
the ancient Greco Roman god of wisdom and justice and
law and victory.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
But she'll definitely throw a spirit through you, but also warfare.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, she'll put a boot up your ass if you
mess with her country.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
No, it's true, and it's a really great nickname.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Half of the times you get these rulers with nicknames
implying their greed, bloodthirstiness or ethel. He was unprepared, he
didn't do his homewark. But Minerva of the North that
is a show of great respect historically, because as we know,
these nicknames, they don't really stick until after the fact.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
The historian looked on her fondly, especially.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Considering the stupid system that is monarchy, right, not good?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I think can we all kind of agree on that
that monarchy bad? That? Yeah, I think that's not a
hot take anymore.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I've been on record with it.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, But I just mean, you know, like having the
most important, powerful job in the land based solely on
your parental heritage.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I guess right. It just seems like a losing recipe.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
And we see it time and time again throughout history,
and of course here in America we see it in
another form, you know, a monarchy by a different name
at times with political dynasties, which I know you also
have a beef with them.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, I would say it's less of a beef and
more of an observation that history will find relevant. I
would also point to Max on this one. Theurg's got
to by the time they fell, a lot of those
folks were in charge of things, and they were physically
(18:11):
incapable of pronouncing their last name.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Oh god, it was it was. I read the obituary
of the autopsy of the last one. I don't think
we could do an episode.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I don't think we should.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Are we talking because of degradation over generation breeding?
Speaker 5 (18:31):
Yeah, the Habsburgs were like the poster children of.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
They were like the human equivalent of the bulldog.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yes, sorry, no shade to the bulldog, but that is
a troubled beast that probably should not exist.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
They came for wolves. What we're seeing here. The reason
where stable the cartoonish nature of monarchy is to show
you that for most of the people alive at the
(19:10):
time in this kingdom, our pal Christina was like them
winning a lottery. Right. A person who is automatically assumed
to be in charge of the country also turns out
to be very well read, to be intellectual, to exercise empathy.
(19:36):
This is the person who created the first Swedish newspaper,
or allowed it to exist, and mass media was a
very controversial idea at the time. Also the first monarch
in Sweden to say, hey, maybe we should let all
of the kids go to school?
Speaker 3 (19:58):
What what?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
I love the italics on that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, But the idea of educating you know, the plebs
for lack of a better term, historically has been a
little risky because you want to keep your underlings, the
people that you rule over, ignorant. So this is an
absolutely bombastically progressive idea for the time to jump in.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
I mean, if you want to think of another similar,
same time period, bad government design theology. The theology works
often when the masses are not educated. Yeah, so the
person who is, like, you know, the divine leader is
the only one who can read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
End allbe all religion as a stand in for education.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
In many ways, the argument of intercession shout out to
Martin Luther right that one time he got super pissed
and changed history and created the Protestant species of Christianity.
So our pal Christina, after about ten years of being
(21:11):
the monarch, she says, you know what I've given you schools,
I've helped newspapers, I've helped create mass media in this country.
And I quit. I have learned enough about monarchy to
think the game is rigged. I'm just going to get
(21:34):
out of here. I'm going to The fancy word for
this is abdicate.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, abdicate being a fancy word for stepping aside right,
and it usually it implies agency of the one abdicating,
though there certainly can be behind the scenes factors that
might force someone to do that.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Politically interesting that you say so, because one of the
reasons cited for this abdicationation was the idea of illness.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yes, indeed, once again from our dear friends at Britannica.
We're actually very close with the managing staff. It's not true.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
We'd like to be.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
We reach out to us Britannica peeps. We want to
go have drinks, Yes, goes Dustly. Christina's abdication after ten
years of rule shocked and confused the Christian world. She
pleaded that she was ill and that the burden of
ruling was too heavy for a woman. The reasons, however,
are unclear and still disputed. Now, I would say if
(22:36):
that were the case, you know, this is certainly you
know heavy hangs the head that.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Wears the crown and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
This is a person who clearly comes from a place
of relative for the time, goodness and kindness and you know, learnedness.
And it can be really stressful when you're in that
situation and you start to realize that this is not
the way of the world, the system that I am
a part of doesn't think like me. And while you are,
(23:03):
you know, the kind of last word, there are always
gonna be those little fingers and those grimo worm tongues,
you know, sort of whispering in your ear and trying
to head you off at the pass every chance you get.
I imagine that could be incredibly exhausting. And for someone
like Christina, who is a philosophically minded, learn an individual,
I could think that could really cause some mental strife
(23:26):
that might require a step back. And this exactly is
the kind of person that I think would do that.
But I too am suspicious. Ben here, I too am suspicious.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Here's one you might enjoy your mileage, may veris that's
that's for the Game of Thrones folks. Next, Can I
get a like a dumb joke sort of paradidtal on
a drum.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
A rim shut.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Yeah, the bad joke drum that I have saved and
marked easy to find for all the times we make
bad jokes on the show. You want that one? Yeah,
it is bad joke dot wave.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
No it's not.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
It is bad joke drum dot wave.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But yes, all right, so this also, I love what
you're bringing up here.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
This is.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Loosely, we could loosely describe this as the experience of
Poland as a country in many, many eras through history.
Christina was dealing with a situation called contemporarily the Polish question,
(24:36):
and it was not a metaphor. It was a geopolitical concern.
The thoughts of abdicating the throne began back when her
buddy Renee that we mentioned earlier, he got pneumonia. Yeah,
he coughed and therefore he was dead.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I studied him in college. I really do like
the work of de gard It's very interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I think so as well. And he died after having
heavily influenced this monarch. And he's one of the guys
who pitched the idea of building an institution of higher learning,
and she was very much on board with this. Christina
(25:28):
would sit through, you know, various as he said, various
as he said, little fingers and whisperers, and then she
would sort of fast forward past their concerns and say, hey,
we should start a university. That guy who died of pneumonia,
(25:52):
he was onto something cool. She also she also had
to continually deal with council what do they call it
in Song of Ice and Fire.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
This small council.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, she had to deal with those folks who were
old dudes, and they were continually trying to speak down
to her.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
It sounds like, oh and sorry to keep referencing Song
of Ice and Fire stuff. And while some people maybe
aren't as hot about the House of Dragons show as
they are about the early parts of Game of Thrones,
I do think that the dragon Queen character in House
of Dragons is a pretty good parallel for this this
(26:36):
character historically speaking, because she is kind and benevolent and
educated and diplomatic, and she's also surrounded with a bunch
of BROI douchey dudes who are trying to you know,
quagmire her every chance they get.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Ooh, quagmire as a verb. Nice. Also, this council of dudes,
this bro council, would not let her quit. She said,
I want to abdicate the throne, and they said, oh
ha ha ha ha, no worries. And she suffered a
severe breakdown. According to history, I suspect a conspiracy because
(27:16):
she was confined to her bedchambers. I think she did
not want to play the role of public figure and
mascot and I think she was punished for having a conscience.
She also, being the queen, was allowed to ask for
(27:40):
their version of therapist right, which would be religious intercessors attendance.
There was one guy, father Antonio Messido, who would come
and visit her frequently. This brewly small council was worried
get this. They were worried that she would turn Catholic.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
And to jump in real quick. One note that I
did find that was very interesting is how her father
died was fighting Catholics. These people hated Catholics.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, they hated Catholics.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, but despite the you know, whispers and screams, they
got progressively more desperate of Christina's counsel.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
She did decide to put.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Her time as Queen of Sweden to an end, and
she then decided to in sixteen fifty three leave Sweden.
She knew that the kind of administrative I guess process
of filing the paperwork or whatever for her abdication was
going to take some time weeks, months possibly, and she
(28:50):
was ready to get this done. So she reached out
to her cousin who was next in line, Charles the
tenth Gustavus to Base offer him the job or just
make sure he was down with it.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
He was game and she was out.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, you need an exit plan, right because otherwise this
person disappearing from Sweden would trigger an enormously tragic civil
war because other people would race to practice usurpation.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Right again, Song of Ice and Fires, Well, the whole
series is about people scrapping for that, you know, I
mean it really when there's no clear line of ascension
I guess is the term, then you got people coming
out of the woodwork, and it can really.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Cause serious, serious loss of life.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Right. Or in another case in the Elder Scrolls, when
Martin Septim crushes the Amulet of the Kings and becomes Acotash,
there's no heir to the throne, so the empire paro
kind of civil war enticed media. A war lord just
became emperor.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I think that's what most people think think of Max
when they're trying to you know.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Immediately, immediately, that's the best part of the show so far.
So we also know that, look, let's picture this our
pal Christina. Right as we're saying, just to recap, she
contacts her cousin to make sure someone will be a
(30:22):
figurehead for the monarchy at the time. And then she
goes she goes on an adventure that I genuinely believe
is under reported in history and could be an awesome
(30:42):
story for our nascent, emergent ridiculous history cinema. She goes
around disguised as a night in the sixteen hundreds, and
then she arrives in Rome and hangs out with Pope
Alexander the seventh and he sees this not disgraced but
(31:11):
definitely a wall monarch, and and he goes, Oh, let
me welcome you in. I I hear you like Catholics.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
I was.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I was about to say, like, she's sort of known
as being Catholic curious right at this point.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Wow, Catholic curious. I mean, it's the thing.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
You know, people were concerned about it, and their fears
certainly weren't allayed by her like fleeing directly to Rome
into the arms of the pope and being like feted
with luxurious dinners and red carpets, you know, galas or whatever.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Let's to say she wasn't curious, Well, sure, but you
know that's how it starts.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Have you tried it? Orgelon, I I imagine you've read
the books, and you maybe under the impression that we
live in a state of piety and poverty. But also
the boy, have you tried an ordol on?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, for anyone that doesn't remember the order lane is the.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Tiny hollow boned bird that was a delicacy so decadent
in those days that when you consumed it, it's supposed
to be all in one bite. I believe it's fried
in butter and whatever. You're supposed to put a like
a like a silk napkin over your head to hide
your your depravity from God.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Right, an omniscient, omnipotent creator.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
That you can pickaboo with. This is a sucker for loopholes.
I'm not here.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
God has no object permanence in this scenario.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So as as we're saying this is a sensation in Rome, right,
this is this is like if your favorite American president
suddenly moved to.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Russia, but you know, probably not the best of pr
stories back home in Sweden, right, because I mean she's
no longer the ruler, but she still represents the country
at least symbolically, right.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Right, And she can't not do politics because she's very
gifted in this regard This is again a quintessential textbook diplomat.
She starts negotiations with the Chief Minister of France, Cardinal Mazarin,
and then she also talks to the Duke Diamodena to
(33:44):
take control of Naples. At this time, Naples was controlled
by Spain, and her pitch was for a person who
abandoned monarchy.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
This is weird.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Her pitch was, I'll just beat Queen and Naples, you
know what I mean. Not my first roudeo.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
But it's like, let me clean up shop, get things
in a good place, and then I'll abdicate again, this
time to a French prince.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, that's the idea, and the scheme did not work out.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Good call call it what it is.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, Although wouldn't you say this is kind of a
like is she is she manipulating or is she really
looking out for like the best scenario for Europe?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Unclear?
Speaker 5 (34:39):
I would say she was known to live a very
lavish life, and a lot of reports said she for
many periods of time while she was living in Rome,
she was living basically, she was falling in debt.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
High on the hog.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
She needed a grift, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Okay, money all right, So you know less.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
It's so eas to look back through history when you
see kind of a good apple to sort of like
give them just all the praise because it's such a rarity.
But history is also rife with these things we call
humans that are very imperfect and can he can be
a victim of their own foibles. So while she may
have had some good qualities, and may have done some
good things and exhibited some humility, this doesn't seem like
(35:23):
the best continuation of those themes.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
She also put out a hit on several people. The
most famous one was she went to the government and said,
I need you to kill this guy. He's a snitch.
He is lying to the Pope about me. And they
asked why should we kill him, and she said, I'm
(35:48):
not taking questions, just get it done. Yeah, And everybody
in France was amazed that she would say this. The
Pope no longer trusted her. The Pope was like, this
lady's gonna kill anyone, you know, that's kind of wild.
(36:11):
That's a verbatim quote from the Pope.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
It does seem like she was going off the rails
a little bit. So she did. However, despite all of
this scandal, lived to become one of the most important
historical figures in terms of her influence on politics of
this era. She continued to be friends with further future popes.
(36:34):
She did continue to spread her love of the finer things,
the arts, philosophy, poetry, literature, you know, all across Europe.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Also, she became this sort of thought leader, right, which
seems to be her ultimate aspiration, her taste in the arts,
her patronage of these things. She collected paintings that became
(37:06):
beyond price, right, pieces of human civilization. Also created spaces
for what we would call salons or hangouts, right. She
invented cool coffee shops without coffee, where people would hang
out and talk about their big ideas like de Carte,
(37:28):
you know, like this is one best example of this
would be the Arcadia Academy, which she founded and it
is still in Rome today. I hear you can walk in.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I'd be cool.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I really would love to visit Rome and something on
my She was also a mean you really kind of
consider her almost a taste maker in a way. She really,
you know, those paintings that we're talking about were so
valuable because her influence caused them to appreciate in value
because she sort of set the tone of what was
popular in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Hm, hm, And she also set, I would argue, a
pretty cool precedent or participated in a precedent that is
important today abdicating power. There there is a controversial history
of monarchs stepping down. Just to be clear, folks, most
(38:23):
monarchs in that imperfect system tend to die in office
or you know, whether it's you know, whether they shut
themselves to death or whether they whether they meet the
wrong end of the game.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
Series, we have a series of people dying bad ways.
We have one episode of seriously only dedicated to be
able to himself to death.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
He did, he did, That's how he died.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I do think it's an interesting parallel to what's
going on in you know, kind of modern political life.
Is like, whatever your political persuasions are, and whatever you
think of this action, the fact that Joe Biden stepped
down and stepped aside is interesting historically, you know, whether
you think it was a magnanimous act, you know, or
whether you think he was like you know, behind the scenes,
(39:15):
elbowed out. It's not something that happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Also to that point, if we're speaking of current parallels,
I want to shout out the King of Bhuton, who
went from an absolute monarchy to a democracy and did
it on purpose. That is the most baller fucking move.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, it's definitely not the way things usually go.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Usually goes the other way around.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think maybe we do a ridiculous history of Bhuton
at some point. That place is amazing.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
It's very much in your wheelhouse, Ben, and I will
follow you wherever you may lead and happily learn a
lot alongside the ridiculous historians out there amongst us.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Well, let me follow you here. How do we wrap
up this amazing story of the Minerva of the North.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
A couple other interesting things that she did. She helped
establish the first public opera house in Rome. She was
also a patron of some very big names in classical
music that you might be familiar with. Alessandro Scarlatti, who
actually became her choir master, and Arcangelo Corelli, who was
(40:34):
another composer. If you grew up playing an orchestraser know
much about classical we probably know most of these names.
He actually directed her orchestras sculptor by the name of
Giovanni Bernini who I have heard of that I'm not
mega mega familiar with. She was a massive fan of
books and had a huge library of books and manuscripts
(40:54):
that is actually now held in the Vatican Library.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
She also said, don't pick on people for their ethnicity,
or for their religion, their creed, whatever. She supported the
idea of intellectual revolution, that's what I would call it.
She wanted people to be empowered with opportunities to discover information.
(41:23):
And she yes had her ups and downs. She definitely
grifted a couple of times. If we're just being honest.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
You boiled it down perfectly, Ben.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
I mean, it really all comes down to what was
her motto Ben at the beginning of the episode that
we mentioned, wisdom supports the nation. I think that really
held true for the most part throughout her career in politics.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
And as a very important patron of the arts.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, and she didn't take mess. She took no guff.
That is apparent. When she passed away in sixty eighty nine,
she was entuned in Saint Peter's Basilica.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Now I did one.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, I don't know how much you guys study tombs,
but that's like the nice neighborhood as far as burials go.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
Yeah, but yeah, but that's Minerva of the North, the
Swedish Queen who was so enlightened she quit being the
queen on.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Purpose, on purpose. Thank you as always to our super
producer mister Max Williams, Thanks also to his brother Alex Williams,
who composed this soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Was air Horns for Alex's team Hughes thanks to Chris
Frosciota's and he was Jeff Coats here in Spirra Jonathan Strickland, the.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Quiz thro AJ Jacobs, the Puzzler A J. Bahamas Jacobs.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
I'm not mistaken, yes, and we will never explain it,
but do tune in with her. Pal Aj. What a delightful,
brilliant guy, you.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Know, a rightly fellow, real mischievous little scamp.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, he's got to shine to him. He's the type
of dude that if he were if he were put
in a monarchical situation, he would spend his time educating
the kingdom and then he would leave.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, that's very unbranded.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Lest we not also heap compliments on our buddy Jonathan Strickland,
the quist.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
That guy is pure evil.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, one hundred percent. He wrote to me earlier and
said I think democracy is overrated. And I said, what
do you mean? And he was like, I think I
would be better as a king than a podcaster.
Speaker 5 (43:44):
I don't know. He's pretty weird. I feel like he
want to be in a monarchy, that he would want
to be one of the peasants, which is what he is.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Classic, and he's got to shine too. It comes from
his bald head.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
There it is. Thanks for tuning in, everyone.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
See you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
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Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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