June 22, 2023 • 36 mins
In 1842, Abraham Lincoln wrote an article clowning a guy named James Shields. Although the article was satirical, and attributed to a made-up author, Shields still didn't love the joke. Some of Abe's friends -- including his future wife -- joined in, and, eventually Shields had enough. He demanded satisfaction, and challenged Lincoln to a duel. It... didn't go as planned. Tune in to learn more about the ridiculous escapades of one of America's most beloved presidents.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous Histories the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show,
(00:28):
Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in.
Let's hear it for our super producer Max the duellist
Williams always dueling this guy.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Man, I can't even like I had to rock that
tall hat. He's already so tall. Did he really need
that flex It seems a little odd.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta wonder if he wore platform shoes too.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or was that incorporated into his height, like his his
head just the tall like a cone head kind of sitsues.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And he had to wear the hat to look a
little more normal.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Were actually four to eleven?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, we were just talking about the du roll of hats.
Sometimes they can sort of serve as helmet as as
cosmetic cover up for any unsightly lumps or bruises.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, okay, no, no, no, we're all friends here. I'll
come clean with our Ridiculous Historians. I'm Ben, and I
have repeatedly hit my head on some heavy things while
moving into a new place, so I'm wearing a hat
until the contusions go away.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We support you Ben in your convalescence.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Thank you, and you're you're no proud of.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
We're going to talk today in live and in person
in our brand new super Fancy podcast studio. We're going
to talk about one of our favorite presidents, Abe Lincoln,
who looks weird, clean shaven.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh yeah, yeah, very It's like his face is like
a California raisin. It's very weird. You've got a very
small chin. Yeah. That's the thing about people with beers.
They often don't have strong chins. I for one, do
not have a strong chin.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I've never seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, you never will.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I probably never will.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's why the beard adds a little bit of length
that gives an extension to my face. Without it, it
would look like a shrunken head.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I've got a I've got a pretty I got a
chin that kind of insists upon itself, a prognatic jaw.
And I gotta tell you, I have immense respect for
you with your beard game, because I haven't had a
beard this big or this long since I lived in
Central America, and it's just driving me crazy. I gotta
(02:32):
find my racers, my Manscape razors.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, of course, it brought to you not by Manscape,
but they make good products, not meant to be used
on the face, though they make that really clear in
their ad copy. It's for some other part of your
body that eludes me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Well, I'm a bit of a maverick, yess. I've always
said that, so so is Abe Lincoln. There we go,
segue Abe Lincoln. Is I believe correct me on this
the tallest or one of the tallest presidents in American
history so far.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I believe our boy lb j and Old Jumbo himself
known for having large parts, was tied with Lincoln at
six ' four. And if I'm not mistaken, correct me
if I'm wrong, Max, one of the more recent presidential
figures is also up there.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
The forty fourth president is six four himself.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Oh wow, So we are maxed out at six four
for presidential height.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Any anything taller is just too freakish for America. That's
why there.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Until we elects president Shaquille O'Neill seven one, I'm looking
forward to that.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, be careful, be careful, Max. We've said, we've had
to say this in interviews before. Shaquille O'Neill runs.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
At land Well, he owns one particular Papa John's restaurant,
and it says on the outside, Shaquille O'Neill's Papa john he.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Owns that Krispy Kreme that burned down and is getting
rebuilt on Ponts too.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Got it? And maybe I'm making up the Papa John statement.
I almost positive that it says on the outside of it,
Shaquille O'Neals.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
But he does ads for Papa Johnson, and in his
ads he's always like, yeah, no, I'm an owner and stuff.
So yeah, okay, okay, I didn't make it up.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Good to know. Let's do the sound cute.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's just for you right now. The fact perfect, all right,
Abe Lincoln tall guy also happened to be president. You've
heard of him in previous Ridiculous History episodes. We do
know this bit of a tangent, but we do know
there are studies proving interesting things about the physical appearance
(04:41):
of a president. Right, You're not going to be president
if you have facial hair. Currently in the US, it's
really tough taller people. Taller candidates tend to do better
in polls.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's so interesting. My kid actually went through a period
where she was very suspicious of tall people. You know,
I think it was during the pandemic, and maybe a
tall person brandishing a mask does have a bit of
a sinister quality, especially if you're on the shorter side
of stature. But I think she's gotten over that. But yeah,
another thing that comes with being a tall president is
(05:13):
you's got pretty sweet reach.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, You've got to reach, and if
your footwork is good, you can be a real monster
in the boxing ring or wrestling. We talked about doing that,
or as today's tale shows us, in a duel in
eighteen forty two Story of the Jedi, I won't tell you,
Abraham Lincoln used his height to save himself from a
(05:38):
potentially fatal scrap with a guy named James Shields, a real.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Pill by the name of James Shields. How does reach
and height benefit you in a duel, you might ask, Well,
we'll get to that. So in the late eighteen thirties,
Abraham Lincoln, who with a time, was a member of
the Whig Party, and Shields, missis of our story today,
who was a Democrat. Both of these fellows were members
(06:04):
of the Illinois State legislature, so this is pre presidential.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Lincoln, and they had the job they had the job
of resolving inter party differences. They were supposed to be
fixers across the political divide, and they were tasked with
ensuring state government soldiered onward. But their relationship, which had
always been sort of a rivalry at best, got really sour.
(06:31):
After Shields had a big win in his career, he
was named the state auditor. O.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Nobody likes that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
No, nobody like. The word audit itself means that if
audit is attached to your job, people are going to
be weird about you.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Correct. Yeah. In eighteen forty two, Illinois as a state
ran out of money and figured that it would be
really helpful for this situation if they no longer accepted
their own printed money as a form of legal tender.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Great.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, they were in a real good position here. No,
not so much. Folks would only be able to pay
their taxes with silver and golds, which is what Jesus
is better than right now, it's just such, it's a him. Yeah,
I'd rather have Jesus than silver.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And right right. And most people, it turns out, in
Illinois at this time, did not have a secret hoarde
of silver and gold. Nope, they were used to trusting
the paper money that have been issued, because you know,
you're supposed to be able to trust official currency. This
made the money worthless. There is a nightmarish time. Our
(07:42):
buddy Shields as state auditor, and he says, I'm going
to side with the Democratic Party on this one, with
my personal political party. We're rejecting all the currency. We're
shutting down the state bank. This is not good.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Does not sound like a party I would want to attend.
So the State Bank of Illinois shut down their legal tender,
which had been you know, accepted for all debts public
and private to that point no longer of value. So
the folks you know, who were the members of the
Whig Party did not care for this, and Shields really
(08:17):
became a target of their ridicule. Right. Lincoln, who was
only thirty three years young at the time, and he
was a Whig, as we said, and a state legislature,
was really against this whole plan. He thought it was
a bad move, as did the people it would seem.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So, you know, there you go, and so he wrote
some disstracks. This literally what happened. He did. He Lincoln
was friends with a guy named Simeon Francis the editor
of the Sangamo Journal or Sangamo Journal, and his buddy
(08:58):
Francis said, look, I'm going to let you publish letters
in this paper of note under a false name. So
on August twenty seventh, eighteen forty two, an attack letter
against Shields is printed in the paper by someone calling
themselves Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, real cute. Already you know, considered a master or
at her at this point. The guy probably had a
bit of a recognizable style, I would argue, Right, So,
while you know, anonymous for all intents and purposes, probably
not entirely anonymous to those in the know.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, And I'm sure that there were phrases in that
letter that came verbatim from trash he had already talked
in the halls of government.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, he got like a rehearsed freestyle.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like on Sway in the morning.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And so the grift is this, The letter is from
the perspective of a farm wife somewhere in rural Illinois,
and she's saying, our neighbor can't pay his taxes because
you expect everyone to have gold and silver, and farmer
in question, a neighbor, right, whose name is Jeff also
probably made up attacks the policies of the Democratic Party
(10:08):
and then lays into Shields individually. Lincoln, who is writing
as the farm wife Rebecca, calls Shields a fool and
a liar and doesn't stop there.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
These fighting words. Yeah, I mean seriously, he really gets
quite personal, just you know, like insulting the guy's intelligence,
his actual physical appearance. There's a quote his very features
in the ecstatic agony of his soul, spoke audibly and distinctly.
Dear girls, it is distressing, but I cannot marry you
(10:40):
all too well. I know how much you suffer. But
do do remember it is not my fault that I
am so handsome and so interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
What yeah, he's say? This guy is so stuck up
he thinks he's God's gift to women. It goes off
the rails as an attack. And also we have to
mention that lincoln future wife Mary Todd, plays a role
in this. When we think of Mary Todd, you know,
we probably think of the older version of her as
(11:08):
the first lady in this time. In eighteen forty two,
Lincoln is in his early thirties and Mary is only
twenty three years old. She is kind of an influencer
of her time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, she definitely carried some weight inas much as a
woman could in politics in those days. Good points, you know,
I mean to your point. If she was around today,
she would be an absolute force to be reckoned with,
you know, in legit politics. But in this day she
really had limited ways in which she could influence the
(11:42):
course of you know, political history. And being an incredibly intelligent,
clever person, she leveraged the avenue to power that she
did have. She and a friend decided to follow Abe
Lincoln's precedent, and they double down on the joke. They
kept trying to publish stuff with these fake names who
(12:04):
go by Rebecca or aunt Becca. This is not to
be confused with some kind of aspersion on my actual aunts.
My aunt Becky, You're awesome. She's I think she's still
somewhere in Edinburgh. I can't remember, wasn't there. Aunt Becky
also a character in Full House.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I think that's right. I think that's right. Full House
was always kind of confusing to.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Me, very confusing. Why do they all live together in
that I don't know, really affluent San Francisco apartment?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
What did he do for a living. Was he like
the ad executive or something. It wasn't really clear to me.
But at the time I also didn't understand things like rent.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So that was a halcyon era of weird sitcom situations.
You know, the kind of thing where the sitcom theme
song had to explain the entire setup Liken the Nanny soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh yeah, or mister Belvidere, any number of sitcoms that had,
you know, the plot of the show laid out, because
you know, audiences is were smart back then. I reckon.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I think maybe the setups were just even more complicated.
But yeah, yeah, so this is this is weird. So
they didn't stop with just one letter Mary and her friend.
They write more and more letters, and they in these
letters under these pseudonyms, they call James Shield's stuff like
a quote ballroom dandy floating about on the earth without
(13:21):
hef door substance, just like a lot of cat fur
where cats have been fighting.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Man, this Rebecca's spitting hot fire over and like it
seems like her her vocabulary shifting radically depending on which
one of these letters you're looking at.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, there's a little suspicions it needs some uniformity of character.
You know, where's our theme here? And then they said,
you know, if he has a problem with being agitated
about the letters we're writing, quote, let him only come here.
He can squeeze my hand. If that's not personal satisfaction,
I can only say he is the first man that
was not satisfied with squeezing my hand.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, it's funny. Some of these get like more and
more performatively colloquial to like he's an eight and you know,
fust and stuff. It's a little funny, And obviously I
don't think it was their intention to. I think it
was meant to be somewhat clear this was not the
same person. Yeah, it was more of a what's the
word it represented something.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, it's like Twitter jokes. It's like they're they're meming him,
they're meme shaming him. And you can tell that there's
a nod in the link and there's a bit of
like an attaboy to it, because one letter even fantasizes
about a fake marriage between ant Rebecca and Shields.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Some fictions some fan fit going on.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So yes, slash fake and Shields doesn't think any of
this is funny. Uh, he goes to the newspaper editor
and it's like, tell me who these people are.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So I may have given him a little more credit
that he deserved. He wasn't able to just suss it
out on his own based on context clues. You know,
he may have suspected, you know, since Lincoln again was
this like great orator and you know, also a nemesis
of him, he may have had his suspicions. But he
did demand the satisfaction from the publisher of the newspaper
(15:08):
or the editor rather, and he said, give me the names,
name names, you know, which is not something that a
newspaper editor would take lightly.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know. Oh, you're supposed to be able to protect sources, right,
but Francis samm Francis obliges shields and says, Okay, I'm
about to blow your mind.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
There is no Rebecca. It's like everybody. Everybody thinks you're
sticking the wood is the problem?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you are not loved, sir.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So he gets this information and he says, I'll teach
them by demanding a retraction.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Isn't that funny though that he obviously hones in on
Lincoln the man. You know, he's not interested necessarily in
Mary Todd or her buddy or whoever else got in
on this, this slanderous game. He gets Lincoln, he's already
you know, his kind of public nemesis, and like you said,
demands a retraction.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, we've got the quote to he. Okay, so how
this is so middle school to me?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
All right?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
He writes an angry note to Lincoln. He doesn't give
the note to Lincoln. He gives it to someone else
to carry the note to him. And the note says,
I have become the object of slander, vituperation, and personal abuse.
Only a full retraction me prevent consequences which no one
will regret more than myself.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Sounds like a threat.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Right right, Hey, bro, don't make me hit you.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I will say. Though, kind of a dick move on
Lincoln's part, I mean, seems a little unprofessional, wouldn't you say,
to publish this distract under an assumed name, like like
own your stuff, man, you know what I mean? Like
come at him like you know you with your true name.
He obviously found out anyway, and you know Lincoln, but
(16:59):
he did stand his remarks even though he made them
under false pretenses.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Which is a little sketch.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
All right, guys, let me jump in here because I
want to pose a question to y'all.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
For some reason, this feels similar to me when we
did the episode about Ben Franklin when he accused the
you know, other his like competing guy with the Almanac
of being dead and stuff like that. Any think is
petty or this or that. That's that's so, it's not
that level of petty.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
No, I'm not saying what he was saying was incorrect
or that he was picking a fight out of pettiness.
What he was saying I think was valid. And and
this other guy was supporting a cause that was not
good for the common people, no question. Nobody, like you said, Ben,
nobody had stores. Only the super wealthier people of his
echelon of society would have had stores of silver and
(17:49):
golds or dragons. Yeah, the rest of them only had
Jesus and this useless script right right, because now the
coupon system of currency doesn't work, and that is that
spell's absolute financial ruin for so many people. Lincoln says,
like you said, Nolie says, I'm not taking back a
word that I said. Here's your letter pal and tell
(18:12):
you what, buddy, why don't you rewrite it in a
more gentlemanly fashion. It's basically like saying, take this letter
and shove.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
It, you know, right, And so shields response by saying,
let's go catch me outside.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, you're gonna gonna throw some hands or or
you know, pistols or whatever else it might be. Have
you seen the new John Wick movie. Yes, at the end,
it's really awesome set piece or there's a duel. I
won't say who's involved, but they get to choose you know,
blades or or freaking you know, pistols or whatever, and
they do it with this very elaborate system, like all
the stuff with the high table. Never quite sure how
(18:50):
these little games visuals a lot of your world building,
awesome movies, awesome, really unequivocally great. They end up doing pistols,
but blades was definitely on the literal table. With these
like tarot card situations, this is similar where they are
going to have to choose what weapons they are going
to be using.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, all right, I gotta jump back in because the
first time I experienced John Wick was John Wick two.
I knew nothing about the show okay, Well about the movie,
I least right right, I knew nothing, but it was
there's a couple of my buddies and we'll go see
John Wick two three D North Cap Mall, which is
like you know the mall for it's basically a dead
ball with just movie theater. Yeah, right, but it's like
six fifty four to three D things. And I was
(19:30):
just like, okay, what is this movie? And I kind
of looked up before and I'm like okay, and I
said it blown away.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
That amazing because you're so great. Timn's point though, you
don't they don't flesh out the world because there's not
much to flesh out. You don't really need to know
some detailed backstory. I think they kill his dog and
that's that's what sets him off.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
The cool thing is like it's like stunt guys who
made the movie. Yes, it's all about the performative art
of like you know, fight scenes and.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Stuff like that. I also like the fact that they
depend on shot value and gore zero percent. Right, it's
all about the acrobatics and the set pieces of it all,
and they just double down each movie. I think they're
they're classic American films.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
There really are.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
They are beautiful. They're beautiful. They can be enjoyed in
any language, which I think is an advantage of slimming
down on the world building. And it's still very it's
still very interesting universe. But I gotta tell you one
of my one of my favorite parts of it watching
through John Wick four, huge fan of the whole franchise,
was I started thinking, Hey, these are supposed to be
(20:32):
like the world's best assassins. I only see them trying
to kill each other. When do they take jobs as assassins?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think we're witnessing in the course of the film,
like a crisis in their community in the regular week,
Like yeah, yeah, unclear what we'll see in john Wick
five when things get back to normal. But so Lincoln,
what you have to accept? I guess right, Them's the
rules you have to you know, it's a gentlemanly agreement.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You can't be punk, No, you can't. So they catch
me outside moment is going to happen in Missouri? Why Missouri?
For these people beefed up in Illinois. It's because in Missouri,
dueling is still totally legal.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Isn't that funny? It's sort of like people that like
have to cross day lines to like get some recreational weed,
you know, right, but in these days, like I gotta
go over here so I can like kill my enemy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, which what I guess is what Missouri was
known for at the time.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Backstory, Hamilton Burr had to go to New Jersey to duel.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Everything is Jersey. It's a very permissive state. But but
you know, back to the john Wick of it all,
there's there is decorum, there are rules surrounding these things.
This is a nom there are rules, and Lincoln being
the person who has been challenged, you know, convention dictates
that he is allowed to choose weapons now is now
again back to the john Wick of it all, these
(21:57):
cards that they have to choose from, there's a finite,
you know, array of weapons to shoot from. Like is
it a similar situation here? Is it literally just pistols
or swords or were like evening stars or morning stars
part of the deal boomerangs perhaps?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, animals?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I choose this type and could you choose a champion
like you could in the days of yr.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, it seems that they had some particular understandings of this.
There were things that were considered while you could technically
choose any weapon. There were things that were considered like
the goats, you know, pistols, blades, et cetera. So Lincoln
starts stacking the deck immediately, this weird pre internet pranking
(22:42):
has gone off the rails, and so he says, all right,
you want to fight me, little buddy. We're using broad swords,
the largest ones you can find, cavalry broad swords.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
This would be those kind of curved scimitar type guys, right.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Calvary broad swords are the ones that have the handle,
oh gosh, the hilts, yeah, the one that like the
protector for your fingies. Yeah, And they're pretty heavy.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
They're substantial, and so they're not curved, though maybe they
curve ever so slightly at the end. Well, no, it
looks like there's an there's something called an infantry hangar
that is a little bit more of a saber type thing.
But I don't know. There's all different makes of these things,
but in general, the cavalry broad sword not incredibly broad,
(23:31):
relatively tapered, you know, relatively thin blade, but that big
old chunky handle with the with the protector on it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
And it's it's wider than a rapier that's right.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Because a rapier is more like a fencing sword. Yeah,
really quainty and yeah, but by.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
This point in time, I feel like stores have gone
a lot less meaty, Like I think, like when the
real meaty swords are the fourteen hundreds, By eighteen hundreds,
they're all slender and oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Look often they were Often they were not functional. They
were or ornamental.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And if they were functional, they were a weapon of
last resort, you know what I mean. If you couldn't
get him from a distance with your musket that took
forty five minutes to load and shoot, you'd pull that
thing out, you know, when you were in close quarters
and maybe out of AMMO.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
The day of the sword had been demoted to bayonet, exactly,
stick it on the gun just in case, right, they
get too close. Lincoln talks talks about why he why
he chooses the swords. He says, I didn't want the
damned fellow to kill me, which I think you would
have done if we had selected pistols. And I don't
(24:34):
want to kill him, but I feel like if it
comes down to blades, I can at least disarm him,
you know, and then give him a chance to give
it up.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Back to that reach we're talking about it. He knows
what his strengths are, and with pistols he would not
have any advantage.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I'm sure his arm would be a little longer.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I guess technically the bullet might arrive a little bit
quicker coming.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
From his gun.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, but you know, we were talking milliseconds here at that point.
Using swords was a real boon, you know, for him
in a situation.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, he had to reach. He had the height. Shields
was five feet nine inches tall to Lincoln six feet four. Now,
I want to give a shout out to all our
fellow listeners who are not themselves six ' four. You
can still win a fight. You can still win a fight,
depending on how you approach it, if you are shorter
(25:27):
than your opponent. But of course, if you know how
to fight. The number one thing you always have to
remember is that if you get into a physical altercation,
you have on some level already failed.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's true because you know it's all about diplomacy. You
use your words, folks, use your words.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Use your words. So, okay, before the duel begins, this
is why we all love this story. Okay, Lincoln is
thinking how do I get this hot headed bantam creature
to calm down? How do I get him to back down?
And what does he do?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Nol Well, it makes me think of that scene in
one of the Indiana Jones movies where Doctor Jones is
menaced by a scimitar wielding henchman of some sort who
does a big old show, you know, swinging it around,
doing all the thing, and then, of course Doctor Jones
just shoots him in the face, which I always found
to be a bit of an unsportsmanly move.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I also heard that move was improvised. Oh really, that's
what I heard, I think if I'm remembering that correctly.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
No improvised or not. It's you know, it's a lot
like the Han shot. First thing. He's sort of a
bit of a rascal if he's just like this guy
hasn't even come at him yet, he's just sort of
showing off and then he just shoots him in the face.
Not not very fair. But this is not the case
because these guys are both you know, never bring a
scimitar to a gunfight, you know, I guess that's the thing.
These guys are both wielding these swords. Lincoln shows off
(26:57):
his reach more than his swordsman.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
One hundred percent. Yeah. So Lincoln says, watch this man
calmed dout, and he cuts down a tree branch above
Shields his head, showing just how much of a height
disparity there is, and clearly establishing that things are not
going to go well for Shields if they do actually
(27:22):
beef up.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So this point, Shields recognizes that maybe he's been played
a little bit. I'm sure he wasn't happy him seeming
like a bit of a thin skinned fellow. But I'll
tell you what he didn't know, and they were able
to discuss in this moment, was that the letter that
Lincoln wrote, I believe there are two under well, the
Jeff and Rebecca letter right, not nearly as personal and
(27:47):
aggressively nasty as the ones that Mary Todd and her
Palell wrote when they took the joke too far. Took
it too far, and he didn't know that. And so
I think this was an opportunity to explain this is
so this.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
To me, this moment is either very tense or it's
weirdly off putting, it awkward, like it's a peep show
moment where you learn the guy could have killed you
in the duel instead, but instead he spared your life,
and he's not the person you should be mad at.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, and that person was a woman, he adds.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, And so so they are not going to be
super good friends right after this, but they but they
understand each other. And if you fast forward twenty years later,
the Civil War brings these frenemies back together.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, Lincoln makes him brigadier general for the Union Army,
and that was you know, well he made him, he
was appointed such and that of course had to be approved,
you know, for a high position like that, by Lincoln himself. So,
you know, Lincoln in every way, he comes off as
the bigger man here.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
He's literally he's literally the bigger man.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And he also just like he he didn't have any beef.
You know, he definitely tossed a little mud on this
guy's you know, pantaloons, but he wasn't trying to push
it farther. And and honestly, at the end of the day,
if that had been the only thing that had come out,
the guy would never have even called for the duel.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
No and all. And Lincoln just didn't want to get shot,
which is a totally reasonable faith, thank god. Though that the.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Tradition of dueling gave him that that opportunity to pick
the weapons, and that he was crafty enough to realize
that his advantage would be much better served with the
with the swords, with the guns.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
And we have to, of course, we have to point
out that his fear of firearms turned out to be
very well fount.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Oh forgot about that. Geez, poor Mary Todd.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, and okay, so he I mean poor Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But like she was like there.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
And so there's something that happens that totally changes the
Lincoln Shields beef Shields. When he is a brigadier general,
like you said, he's fighting in the Shenandoah Valley in
March of eighteen sixty two, he is the only guy
to defeat Stonewall Jackson at a place called the Battle
(30:17):
of Curtainstown. And during that battle, Shields is very grievously injured.
Lincoln says, nominate this guy to major general. And someone
maybe in the room said, do you mean that guy
I tried to kill you in Missouri? And he's like, yeah, look,
we got a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's fine, you get into situations. Yeah, bigger man unfortunately
is not in the power of the president alone, you know,
to bestow this this promotion, you know, onto an individual.
And Shields doesn't get the nomination. It's blocked by the
then Republican controlled Senate. Yeah, the symbolic it did the
(31:00):
job right symbolically, it squashed the beef. And apparently this
haunted Lincoln for the rest of his life. He was
embarrassed about it, and he asked Mary Todd, who you know,
was his friend then later became his wife. He asked
her never to speak about it to him or to anyone.
And there's an anecdotal story that says, years and years later,
(31:24):
an army officer was talking to Lincoln while he's the
president and said something like, you know, you know, mister President,
I me and the boys have heard a campfire story
about you, and did you used to get into duels?
What did Lincoln say, Because to the bone like a
cavalry broadsword, he says, I do not deny it, but
(31:45):
if you desire my friendship, you will not mention it again.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Awkward, awkward dinner. Thanks for making dinner awkward.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I mean he basically said the same thing to Mary Todd.
You know, he was like, we don't talk about this,
you know, and if you do, it's not going to
go well.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I think he really regretted it. He would go
on to describe it once as what was it the
meanest thing I ever did in my life.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
That's interesting because again he really does come off as
like the diplomat here. Maybe he's referring to feeling bad
about writing the anonymous talk.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, I think that's part of it, because the whole
situation could have been avoided. But you know how it is.
Sometimes you gotta get your jokes in. Man.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's true. And also maybe at the time he thought
that that he genuinely believed that if it came from
the perspective of like the people, that it was gonna
do a better job of communicating the gravity of the
situation that it came from like a political opponent. So,
you know, hindsight's twenty twenty and all that. It seemed
like a dumb move to both of us, I think
(32:49):
from the start, But I think Lincoln was well meaning
and veiling his true identity.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Let's you know what, Let's see if dueling is still
legal somewhere.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Oh, it's probably one of those like weird off the
books things or there's some like gray area zone. See, yeah,
you can just in this like part where these states intersect.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Apparently, according to grunge dot com, dueling is still legal
in a couple of states.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah. It's referred to as mutual combats. It is nuts, yeah,
says here Texas and Washington. Washington was a surprise for
me too, man. Yeah, they're so chill and peaceful and
stoned in Washington.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And so okay. The Washington law says anyone who fights,
or promotes, or is concerned in or connives at fighting
a duel is prosecutable by law. But if people are
not fighting in public, if they're not risking the lives
of other people, are damaging other property, then police have
(33:52):
no reason to intervene.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Gotta wonder if that's sort of like one of those
laws where like the local law clashes with roll law,
because like, if you kill somebody in a duel and
it's legal to do so in Texas under a mutual combat,
you know, statute of their penal code a federally, haven't
you still murdered somebody?
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah? I would think so, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
To jump back in here, in the case of Aaron
Burr and Alexander Hamilton. Uh, there was actually murder charges
brought to up. He wasn't really even found like innocent.
He it was just like a something went wrong with
the trial. But it's like, yeah, for the longest time,
it's like, yeah, you can duel, but if you kill
somebody in the duel, you're still liable to be charged
for murder.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So it's weird. Well, I guess it also depends are
you just fighting or are you dueling to the death.
I think we're all assuming dual to the death right, correct, Yeah, Okay,
should that be legal? Like, uh, should we step carefully
(34:59):
and text you guys next time we go back always?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Okay, lesson learned with a big thanks through Abe Lincoln. Uh,
this one just flew by Noel, and I know we've
got to I know we've got to call it a day,
but I'm having so much fun in this in person
recording situation. You know. Uh, it may not be great
for uh Max's burgeoning Meglemania, as he said, but uh,
(35:25):
but that's that's just a bisco We're gonna have to take. Max.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It's one that I'm willing to take.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Right So thanks Toorge super producer, Max Williams, Alex Williams,
who composed this banging soundtrack. Noel Noel, who else? Who else? Oh?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You know, you know, Chris frasciotis here in spirities, Jeff
Coats out there in the in the great wide world,
Jonathan Strickland. Uh and and you Ben. You know, we've
never never been in a duel. I don't do't foresee
that happening.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Uh No, I don't think we'll be in a duel
to each other. So tune in. We've got some great
stuff on the way. We're very excited to travel through
more ridiculous events days of your and we can't wait
for you to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous Histories the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show,
(00:28):
Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in.
Let's hear it for our super producer Max the duellist
Williams always dueling this guy.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Man, I can't even like I had to rock that
tall hat. He's already so tall. Did he really need
that flex It seems a little odd.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta wonder if he wore platform shoes too.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or was that incorporated into his height, like his his
head just the tall like a cone head kind of sitsues.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And he had to wear the hat to look a
little more normal.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Were actually four to eleven?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah, we were just talking about the du roll of hats.
Sometimes they can sort of serve as helmet as as
cosmetic cover up for any unsightly lumps or bruises.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, okay, no, no, no, we're all friends here. I'll
come clean with our Ridiculous Historians. I'm Ben, and I
have repeatedly hit my head on some heavy things while
moving into a new place, so I'm wearing a hat
until the contusions go away.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We support you Ben in your convalescence.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Thank you, and you're you're no proud of.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
We're going to talk today in live and in person
in our brand new super Fancy podcast studio. We're going
to talk about one of our favorite presidents, Abe Lincoln,
who looks weird, clean shaven.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh yeah, yeah, very It's like his face is like
a California raisin. It's very weird. You've got a very
small chin. Yeah. That's the thing about people with beers.
They often don't have strong chins. I for one, do
not have a strong chin.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I've never seen it.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, you never will.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I probably never will.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
That's why the beard adds a little bit of length
that gives an extension to my face. Without it, it
would look like a shrunken head.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I've got a I've got a pretty I got a
chin that kind of insists upon itself, a prognatic jaw.
And I gotta tell you, I have immense respect for
you with your beard game, because I haven't had a
beard this big or this long since I lived in
Central America, and it's just driving me crazy. I gotta
(02:32):
find my racers, my Manscape razors.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, of course, it brought to you not by Manscape,
but they make good products, not meant to be used
on the face, though they make that really clear in
their ad copy. It's for some other part of your
body that eludes me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Well, I'm a bit of a maverick, yess. I've always
said that, so so is Abe Lincoln. There we go,
segue Abe Lincoln. Is I believe correct me on this
the tallest or one of the tallest presidents in American
history so far.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I believe our boy lb j and Old Jumbo himself
known for having large parts, was tied with Lincoln at
six ' four. And if I'm not mistaken, correct me
if I'm wrong, Max, one of the more recent presidential
figures is also up there.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
The forty fourth president is six four himself.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Oh wow, So we are maxed out at six four
for presidential height.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Any anything taller is just too freakish for America. That's
why there.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Until we elects president Shaquille O'Neill seven one, I'm looking
forward to that.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, be careful, be careful, Max. We've said, we've had
to say this in interviews before. Shaquille O'Neill runs.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
At land Well, he owns one particular Papa John's restaurant,
and it says on the outside, Shaquille O'Neill's Papa john he.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Owns that Krispy Kreme that burned down and is getting
rebuilt on Ponts too.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Got it? And maybe I'm making up the Papa John statement.
I almost positive that it says on the outside of it,
Shaquille O'Neals.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
But he does ads for Papa Johnson, and in his
ads he's always like, yeah, no, I'm an owner and stuff.
So yeah, okay, okay, I didn't make it up.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Good to know. Let's do the sound cute.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That seeking in the phone and peaceful in knowledge.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's just for you right now. The fact perfect, all right,
Abe Lincoln tall guy also happened to be president. You've
heard of him in previous Ridiculous History episodes. We do
know this bit of a tangent, but we do know
there are studies proving interesting things about the physical appearance
(04:41):
of a president. Right, You're not going to be president
if you have facial hair. Currently in the US, it's
really tough taller people. Taller candidates tend to do better
in polls.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's so interesting. My kid actually went through a period
where she was very suspicious of tall people. You know,
I think it was during the pandemic, and maybe a
tall person brandishing a mask does have a bit of
a sinister quality, especially if you're on the shorter side
of stature. But I think she's gotten over that. But yeah,
another thing that comes with being a tall president is
(05:13):
you's got pretty sweet reach.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, You've got to reach, and if
your footwork is good, you can be a real monster
in the boxing ring or wrestling. We talked about doing that,
or as today's tale shows us, in a duel in
eighteen forty two Story of the Jedi, I won't tell you,
Abraham Lincoln used his height to save himself from a
(05:38):
potentially fatal scrap with a guy named James Shields, a real.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Pill by the name of James Shields. How does reach
and height benefit you in a duel, you might ask, Well,
we'll get to that. So in the late eighteen thirties,
Abraham Lincoln, who with a time, was a member of
the Whig Party, and Shields, missis of our story today,
who was a Democrat. Both of these fellows were members
(06:04):
of the Illinois State legislature, so this is pre presidential.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Lincoln, and they had the job they had the job
of resolving inter party differences. They were supposed to be
fixers across the political divide, and they were tasked with
ensuring state government soldiered onward. But their relationship, which had
always been sort of a rivalry at best, got really sour.
(06:31):
After Shields had a big win in his career, he
was named the state auditor. O.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Nobody likes that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
No, nobody like. The word audit itself means that if
audit is attached to your job, people are going to
be weird about you.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Correct. Yeah. In eighteen forty two, Illinois as a state
ran out of money and figured that it would be
really helpful for this situation if they no longer accepted
their own printed money as a form of legal tender.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Great.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, they were in a real good position here. No,
not so much. Folks would only be able to pay
their taxes with silver and golds, which is what Jesus
is better than right now, it's just such, it's a him. Yeah,
I'd rather have Jesus than silver.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And right right. And most people, it turns out, in
Illinois at this time, did not have a secret hoarde
of silver and gold. Nope, they were used to trusting
the paper money that have been issued, because you know,
you're supposed to be able to trust official currency. This
made the money worthless. There is a nightmarish time. Our
(07:42):
buddy Shields as state auditor, and he says, I'm going
to side with the Democratic Party on this one, with
my personal political party. We're rejecting all the currency. We're
shutting down the state bank. This is not good.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Does not sound like a party I would want to attend.
So the State Bank of Illinois shut down their legal tender,
which had been you know, accepted for all debts public
and private to that point no longer of value. So
the folks you know, who were the members of the
Whig Party did not care for this, and Shields really
(08:17):
became a target of their ridicule. Right. Lincoln, who was
only thirty three years young at the time, and he
was a Whig, as we said, and a state legislature,
was really against this whole plan. He thought it was
a bad move, as did the people it would seem.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So, you know, there you go, and so he wrote
some disstracks. This literally what happened. He did. He Lincoln
was friends with a guy named Simeon Francis the editor
of the Sangamo Journal or Sangamo Journal, and his buddy
(08:58):
Francis said, look, I'm going to let you publish letters
in this paper of note under a false name. So
on August twenty seventh, eighteen forty two, an attack letter
against Shields is printed in the paper by someone calling
themselves Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, real cute. Already you know, considered a master or
at her at this point. The guy probably had a
bit of a recognizable style, I would argue, Right, So,
while you know, anonymous for all intents and purposes, probably
not entirely anonymous to those in the know.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, And I'm sure that there were phrases in that
letter that came verbatim from trash he had already talked
in the halls of government.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, he got like a rehearsed freestyle.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like on Sway in the morning.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
And so the grift is this, The letter is from
the perspective of a farm wife somewhere in rural Illinois,
and she's saying, our neighbor can't pay his taxes because
you expect everyone to have gold and silver, and farmer
in question, a neighbor, right, whose name is Jeff also
probably made up attacks the policies of the Democratic Party
(10:08):
and then lays into Shields individually. Lincoln, who is writing
as the farm wife Rebecca, calls Shields a fool and
a liar and doesn't stop there.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
These fighting words. Yeah, I mean seriously, he really gets
quite personal, just you know, like insulting the guy's intelligence,
his actual physical appearance. There's a quote his very features
in the ecstatic agony of his soul, spoke audibly and distinctly.
Dear girls, it is distressing, but I cannot marry you
(10:40):
all too well. I know how much you suffer. But
do do remember it is not my fault that I
am so handsome and so interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
What yeah, he's say? This guy is so stuck up
he thinks he's God's gift to women. It goes off
the rails as an attack. And also we have to
mention that lincoln future wife Mary Todd, plays a role
in this. When we think of Mary Todd, you know,
we probably think of the older version of her as
(11:08):
the first lady in this time. In eighteen forty two,
Lincoln is in his early thirties and Mary is only
twenty three years old. She is kind of an influencer
of her time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, she definitely carried some weight inas much as a
woman could in politics in those days. Good points, you know,
I mean to your point. If she was around today,
she would be an absolute force to be reckoned with,
you know, in legit politics. But in this day she
really had limited ways in which she could influence the
(11:42):
course of you know, political history. And being an incredibly intelligent,
clever person, she leveraged the avenue to power that she
did have. She and a friend decided to follow Abe
Lincoln's precedent, and they double down on the joke. They
kept trying to publish stuff with these fake names who
(12:04):
go by Rebecca or aunt Becca. This is not to
be confused with some kind of aspersion on my actual aunts.
My aunt Becky, You're awesome. She's I think she's still
somewhere in Edinburgh. I can't remember, wasn't there. Aunt Becky
also a character in Full House.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I think that's right. I think that's right. Full House
was always kind of confusing to.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Me, very confusing. Why do they all live together in
that I don't know, really affluent San Francisco apartment?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
What did he do for a living. Was he like
the ad executive or something. It wasn't really clear to me.
But at the time I also didn't understand things like rent.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So that was a halcyon era of weird sitcom situations.
You know, the kind of thing where the sitcom theme
song had to explain the entire setup Liken the Nanny soundtrack.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Oh yeah, or mister Belvidere, any number of sitcoms that had,
you know, the plot of the show laid out, because
you know, audiences is were smart back then. I reckon.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I think maybe the setups were just even more complicated.
But yeah, yeah, so this is this is weird. So
they didn't stop with just one letter Mary and her friend.
They write more and more letters, and they in these
letters under these pseudonyms, they call James Shield's stuff like
a quote ballroom dandy floating about on the earth without
(13:21):
hef door substance, just like a lot of cat fur
where cats have been fighting.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Man, this Rebecca's spitting hot fire over and like it
seems like her her vocabulary shifting radically depending on which
one of these letters you're looking at.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, there's a little suspicions it needs some uniformity of character.
You know, where's our theme here? And then they said,
you know, if he has a problem with being agitated
about the letters we're writing, quote, let him only come here.
He can squeeze my hand. If that's not personal satisfaction,
I can only say he is the first man that
was not satisfied with squeezing my hand.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, it's funny. Some of these get like more and
more performatively colloquial to like he's an eight and you know,
fust and stuff. It's a little funny, And obviously I
don't think it was their intention to. I think it
was meant to be somewhat clear this was not the
same person. Yeah, it was more of a what's the
word it represented something.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, it's like Twitter jokes. It's like they're they're meming him,
they're meme shaming him. And you can tell that there's
a nod in the link and there's a bit of
like an attaboy to it, because one letter even fantasizes
about a fake marriage between ant Rebecca and Shields.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Some fictions some fan fit going on.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So yes, slash fake and Shields doesn't think any of
this is funny. Uh, he goes to the newspaper editor
and it's like, tell me who these people are.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
So I may have given him a little more credit
that he deserved. He wasn't able to just suss it
out on his own based on context clues. You know,
he may have suspected, you know, since Lincoln again was
this like great orator and you know, also a nemesis
of him, he may have had his suspicions. But he
did demand the satisfaction from the publisher of the newspaper
(15:08):
or the editor rather, and he said, give me the names,
name names, you know, which is not something that a
newspaper editor would take lightly.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
You know. Oh, you're supposed to be able to protect sources, right,
but Francis samm Francis obliges shields and says, Okay, I'm
about to blow your mind.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
There is no Rebecca. It's like everybody. Everybody thinks you're
sticking the wood is the problem?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah, you are not loved, sir.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
So he gets this information and he says, I'll teach
them by demanding a retraction.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Isn't that funny though that he obviously hones in on
Lincoln the man. You know, he's not interested necessarily in
Mary Todd or her buddy or whoever else got in
on this, this slanderous game. He gets Lincoln, he's already
you know, his kind of public nemesis, and like you said,
demands a retraction.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, we've got the quote to he. Okay, so how
this is so middle school to me?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
All right?
Speaker 1 (16:13):
He writes an angry note to Lincoln. He doesn't give
the note to Lincoln. He gives it to someone else
to carry the note to him. And the note says,
I have become the object of slander, vituperation, and personal abuse.
Only a full retraction me prevent consequences which no one
will regret more than myself.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Sounds like a threat.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Right right, Hey, bro, don't make me hit you.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I will say. Though, kind of a dick move on
Lincoln's part, I mean, seems a little unprofessional, wouldn't you say,
to publish this distract under an assumed name, like like
own your stuff, man, you know what I mean? Like
come at him like you know you with your true name.
He obviously found out anyway, and you know Lincoln, but
(16:59):
he did stand his remarks even though he made them
under false pretenses.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Which is a little sketch.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
All right, guys, let me jump in here because I
want to pose a question to y'all.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
For some reason, this feels similar to me when we
did the episode about Ben Franklin when he accused the
you know, other his like competing guy with the Almanac
of being dead and stuff like that. Any think is
petty or this or that. That's that's so, it's not
that level of petty.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
No, I'm not saying what he was saying was incorrect
or that he was picking a fight out of pettiness.
What he was saying I think was valid. And and
this other guy was supporting a cause that was not
good for the common people, no question. Nobody, like you said, Ben,
nobody had stores. Only the super wealthier people of his
echelon of society would have had stores of silver and
(17:49):
golds or dragons. Yeah, the rest of them only had
Jesus and this useless script right right, because now the
coupon system of currency doesn't work, and that is that
spell's absolute financial ruin for so many people. Lincoln says,
like you said, Nolie says, I'm not taking back a
word that I said. Here's your letter pal and tell
(18:12):
you what, buddy, why don't you rewrite it in a
more gentlemanly fashion. It's basically like saying, take this letter
and shove.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
It, you know, right, And so shields response by saying,
let's go catch me outside.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, you're gonna gonna throw some hands or or
you know, pistols or whatever else it might be. Have
you seen the new John Wick movie. Yes, at the end,
it's really awesome set piece or there's a duel. I
won't say who's involved, but they get to choose you know,
blades or or freaking you know, pistols or whatever, and
they do it with this very elaborate system, like all
the stuff with the high table. Never quite sure how
(18:50):
these little games visuals a lot of your world building,
awesome movies, awesome, really unequivocally great. They end up doing pistols,
but blades was definitely on the literal table. With these
like tarot card situations, this is similar where they are
going to have to choose what weapons they are going
to be using.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, all right, I gotta jump back in because the
first time I experienced John Wick was John Wick two.
I knew nothing about the show okay, Well about the movie,
I least right right, I knew nothing, but it was
there's a couple of my buddies and we'll go see
John Wick two three D North Cap Mall, which is
like you know the mall for it's basically a dead
ball with just movie theater. Yeah, right, but it's like
six fifty four to three D things. And I was
(19:30):
just like, okay, what is this movie? And I kind
of looked up before and I'm like okay, and I
said it blown away.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
That amazing because you're so great. Timn's point though, you
don't they don't flesh out the world because there's not
much to flesh out. You don't really need to know
some detailed backstory. I think they kill his dog and
that's that's what sets him off.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
The cool thing is like it's like stunt guys who
made the movie. Yes, it's all about the performative art
of like you know, fight scenes and.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Stuff like that. I also like the fact that they
depend on shot value and gore zero percent. Right, it's
all about the acrobatics and the set pieces of it all,
and they just double down each movie. I think they're
they're classic American films.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
There really are.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
They are beautiful. They're beautiful. They can be enjoyed in
any language, which I think is an advantage of slimming
down on the world building. And it's still very it's
still very interesting universe. But I gotta tell you one
of my one of my favorite parts of it watching
through John Wick four, huge fan of the whole franchise,
was I started thinking, Hey, these are supposed to be
(20:32):
like the world's best assassins. I only see them trying
to kill each other. When do they take jobs as assassins?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think we're witnessing in the course of the film,
like a crisis in their community in the regular week,
Like yeah, yeah, unclear what we'll see in john Wick
five when things get back to normal. But so Lincoln,
what you have to accept? I guess right, Them's the
rules you have to you know, it's a gentlemanly agreement.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You can't be punk, No, you can't. So they catch
me outside moment is going to happen in Missouri? Why Missouri?
For these people beefed up in Illinois. It's because in Missouri,
dueling is still totally legal.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Isn't that funny? It's sort of like people that like
have to cross day lines to like get some recreational weed,
you know, right, but in these days, like I gotta
go over here so I can like kill my enemy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, which what I guess is what Missouri was
known for at the time.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Backstory, Hamilton Burr had to go to New Jersey to duel.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Everything is Jersey. It's a very permissive state. But but
you know, back to the john Wick of it all,
there's there is decorum, there are rules surrounding these things.
This is a nom there are rules, and Lincoln being
the person who has been challenged, you know, convention dictates
that he is allowed to choose weapons now is now
again back to the john Wick of it all, these
(21:57):
cards that they have to choose from, there's a finite,
you know, array of weapons to shoot from. Like is
it a similar situation here? Is it literally just pistols
or swords or were like evening stars or morning stars
part of the deal boomerangs perhaps?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, animals?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I choose this type and could you choose a champion
like you could in the days of yr.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, it seems that they had some particular understandings of this.
There were things that were considered while you could technically
choose any weapon. There were things that were considered like
the goats, you know, pistols, blades, et cetera. So Lincoln
starts stacking the deck immediately, this weird pre internet pranking
(22:42):
has gone off the rails, and so he says, all right,
you want to fight me, little buddy. We're using broad swords,
the largest ones you can find, cavalry broad swords.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
This would be those kind of curved scimitar type guys, right.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Calvary broad swords are the ones that have the handle,
oh gosh, the hilts, yeah, the one that like the
protector for your fingies. Yeah, And they're pretty heavy.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
They're substantial, and so they're not curved, though maybe they
curve ever so slightly at the end. Well, no, it
looks like there's an there's something called an infantry hangar
that is a little bit more of a saber type thing.
But I don't know. There's all different makes of these things,
but in general, the cavalry broad sword not incredibly broad,
(23:31):
relatively tapered, you know, relatively thin blade, but that big
old chunky handle with the with the protector on it.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
And it's it's wider than a rapier that's right.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Because a rapier is more like a fencing sword. Yeah,
really quainty and yeah, but by.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
This point in time, I feel like stores have gone
a lot less meaty, Like I think, like when the
real meaty swords are the fourteen hundreds, By eighteen hundreds,
they're all slender and oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Look often they were Often they were not functional. They
were or ornamental.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
And if they were functional, they were a weapon of
last resort, you know what I mean. If you couldn't
get him from a distance with your musket that took
forty five minutes to load and shoot, you'd pull that
thing out, you know, when you were in close quarters
and maybe out of AMMO.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
The day of the sword had been demoted to bayonet, exactly,
stick it on the gun just in case, right, they
get too close. Lincoln talks talks about why he why
he chooses the swords. He says, I didn't want the
damned fellow to kill me, which I think you would
have done if we had selected pistols. And I don't
(24:34):
want to kill him, but I feel like if it
comes down to blades, I can at least disarm him,
you know, and then give him a chance to give
it up.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Back to that reach we're talking about it. He knows
what his strengths are, and with pistols he would not
have any advantage.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I'm sure his arm would be a little longer.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I guess technically the bullet might arrive a little bit
quicker coming.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
From his gun.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, but you know, we were talking milliseconds here at that point.
Using swords was a real boon, you know, for him
in a situation.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, he had to reach. He had the height. Shields
was five feet nine inches tall to Lincoln six feet four. Now,
I want to give a shout out to all our
fellow listeners who are not themselves six ' four. You
can still win a fight. You can still win a fight,
depending on how you approach it, if you are shorter
(25:27):
than your opponent. But of course, if you know how
to fight. The number one thing you always have to
remember is that if you get into a physical altercation,
you have on some level already failed.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
It's true because you know it's all about diplomacy. You
use your words, folks, use your words.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Use your words. So, okay, before the duel begins, this
is why we all love this story. Okay, Lincoln is
thinking how do I get this hot headed bantam creature
to calm down? How do I get him to back down?
And what does he do?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Nol Well, it makes me think of that scene in
one of the Indiana Jones movies where Doctor Jones is
menaced by a scimitar wielding henchman of some sort who
does a big old show, you know, swinging it around,
doing all the thing, and then, of course Doctor Jones
just shoots him in the face, which I always found
to be a bit of an unsportsmanly move.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I also heard that move was improvised. Oh really, that's
what I heard, I think if I'm remembering that correctly.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
No improvised or not. It's you know, it's a lot
like the Han shot. First thing. He's sort of a
bit of a rascal if he's just like this guy
hasn't even come at him yet, he's just sort of
showing off and then he just shoots him in the face.
Not not very fair. But this is not the case
because these guys are both you know, never bring a
scimitar to a gunfight, you know, I guess that's the thing.
These guys are both wielding these swords. Lincoln shows off
(26:57):
his reach more than his swordsman.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
One hundred percent. Yeah. So Lincoln says, watch this man
calmed dout, and he cuts down a tree branch above
Shields his head, showing just how much of a height
disparity there is, and clearly establishing that things are not
going to go well for Shields if they do actually
(27:22):
beef up.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So this point, Shields recognizes that maybe he's been played
a little bit. I'm sure he wasn't happy him seeming
like a bit of a thin skinned fellow. But I'll
tell you what he didn't know, and they were able
to discuss in this moment, was that the letter that
Lincoln wrote, I believe there are two under well, the
Jeff and Rebecca letter right, not nearly as personal and
(27:47):
aggressively nasty as the ones that Mary Todd and her
Palell wrote when they took the joke too far. Took
it too far, and he didn't know that. And so
I think this was an opportunity to explain this is
so this.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
To me, this moment is either very tense or it's
weirdly off putting, it awkward, like it's a peep show
moment where you learn the guy could have killed you
in the duel instead, but instead he spared your life,
and he's not the person you should be mad at.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, and that person was a woman, he adds.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, And so so they are not going to be
super good friends right after this, but they but they
understand each other. And if you fast forward twenty years later,
the Civil War brings these frenemies back together.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, Lincoln makes him brigadier general for the Union Army,
and that was you know, well he made him, he
was appointed such and that of course had to be approved,
you know, for a high position like that, by Lincoln himself. So,
you know, Lincoln in every way, he comes off as
the bigger man here.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
He's literally he's literally the bigger man.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
And he also just like he he didn't have any beef.
You know, he definitely tossed a little mud on this
guy's you know, pantaloons, but he wasn't trying to push
it farther. And and honestly, at the end of the day,
if that had been the only thing that had come out,
the guy would never have even called for the duel.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
No and all. And Lincoln just didn't want to get shot,
which is a totally reasonable faith, thank god. Though that the.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Tradition of dueling gave him that that opportunity to pick
the weapons, and that he was crafty enough to realize
that his advantage would be much better served with the
with the swords, with the guns.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
And we have to, of course, we have to point
out that his fear of firearms turned out to be
very well fount.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Oh forgot about that. Geez, poor Mary Todd.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, and okay, so he I mean poor Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But like she was like there.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
And so there's something that happens that totally changes the
Lincoln Shields beef Shields. When he is a brigadier general,
like you said, he's fighting in the Shenandoah Valley in
March of eighteen sixty two, he is the only guy
to defeat Stonewall Jackson at a place called the Battle
(30:17):
of Curtainstown. And during that battle, Shields is very grievously injured.
Lincoln says, nominate this guy to major general. And someone
maybe in the room said, do you mean that guy
I tried to kill you in Missouri? And he's like, yeah, look,
we got a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's fine, you get into situations. Yeah, bigger man unfortunately
is not in the power of the president alone, you know,
to bestow this this promotion, you know, onto an individual.
And Shields doesn't get the nomination. It's blocked by the
then Republican controlled Senate. Yeah, the symbolic it did the
(31:00):
job right symbolically, it squashed the beef. And apparently this
haunted Lincoln for the rest of his life. He was
embarrassed about it, and he asked Mary Todd, who you know,
was his friend then later became his wife. He asked
her never to speak about it to him or to anyone.
And there's an anecdotal story that says, years and years later,
(31:24):
an army officer was talking to Lincoln while he's the
president and said something like, you know, you know, mister President,
I me and the boys have heard a campfire story
about you, and did you used to get into duels?
What did Lincoln say, Because to the bone like a
cavalry broadsword, he says, I do not deny it, but
(31:45):
if you desire my friendship, you will not mention it again.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Awkward, awkward dinner. Thanks for making dinner awkward.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I mean he basically said the same thing to Mary Todd.
You know, he was like, we don't talk about this,
you know, and if you do, it's not going to
go well.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I think he really regretted it. He would go
on to describe it once as what was it the
meanest thing I ever did in my life.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
That's interesting because again he really does come off as
like the diplomat here. Maybe he's referring to feeling bad
about writing the anonymous talk.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, I think that's part of it, because the whole
situation could have been avoided. But you know how it is.
Sometimes you gotta get your jokes in. Man.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's true. And also maybe at the time he thought
that that he genuinely believed that if it came from
the perspective of like the people, that it was gonna
do a better job of communicating the gravity of the
situation that it came from like a political opponent. So,
you know, hindsight's twenty twenty and all that. It seemed
like a dumb move to both of us, I think
(32:49):
from the start, But I think Lincoln was well meaning
and veiling his true identity.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Let's you know what, Let's see if dueling is still
legal somewhere.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Oh, it's probably one of those like weird off the
books things or there's some like gray area zone. See, yeah,
you can just in this like part where these states intersect.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Apparently, according to grunge dot com, dueling is still legal
in a couple of states.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah. It's referred to as mutual combats. It is nuts, yeah,
says here Texas and Washington. Washington was a surprise for
me too, man. Yeah, they're so chill and peaceful and
stoned in Washington.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And so okay. The Washington law says anyone who fights,
or promotes, or is concerned in or connives at fighting
a duel is prosecutable by law. But if people are
not fighting in public, if they're not risking the lives
of other people, are damaging other property, then police have
(33:52):
no reason to intervene.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Gotta wonder if that's sort of like one of those
laws where like the local law clashes with roll law,
because like, if you kill somebody in a duel and
it's legal to do so in Texas under a mutual combat,
you know, statute of their penal code a federally, haven't
you still murdered somebody?
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah? I would think so, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
To jump back in here, in the case of Aaron
Burr and Alexander Hamilton. Uh, there was actually murder charges
brought to up. He wasn't really even found like innocent.
He it was just like a something went wrong with
the trial. But it's like, yeah, for the longest time,
it's like, yeah, you can duel, but if you kill
somebody in the duel, you're still liable to be charged
for murder.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So it's weird. Well, I guess it also depends are
you just fighting or are you dueling to the death.
I think we're all assuming dual to the death right, correct, Yeah, Okay,
should that be legal? Like, uh, should we step carefully
(34:59):
and text you guys next time we go back always?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Okay, lesson learned with a big thanks through Abe Lincoln. Uh,
this one just flew by Noel, and I know we've
got to I know we've got to call it a day,
but I'm having so much fun in this in person
recording situation. You know. Uh, it may not be great
for uh Max's burgeoning Meglemania, as he said, but uh,
(35:25):
but that's that's just a bisco We're gonna have to take. Max.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
It's one that I'm willing to take.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Right So thanks Toorge super producer, Max Williams, Alex Williams,
who composed this banging soundtrack. Noel Noel, who else? Who else? Oh?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
You know, you know, Chris frasciotis here in spirities, Jeff
Coats out there in the in the great wide world,
Jonathan Strickland. Uh and and you Ben. You know, we've
never never been in a duel. I don't do't foresee
that happening.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Uh No, I don't think we'll be in a duel
to each other. So tune in. We've got some great
stuff on the way. We're very excited to travel through
more ridiculous events days of your and we can't wait
for you to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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