July 4, 2019 • 27 mins
It’s true! Once upon a time, Irish separatists based in the United States thought invading Canada was the best way to reunify Ireland. Join the gang as they explore the rise of the Fenians (and, along the way, why Canada is more than capable of defending itself).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:28):
to the show Ridiculous Historians, and hello to you and
whatever neck of the global would you find yourself today.
I gotta tell you this episode and this topic for
today's episode is calling up some memories for me of
a very strange weekend. There was one time where circumstances
(00:49):
found me in Dublin for like twenty six hours. You
do that from time to time, don't you. Man. Things happen,
the old things happened. We were just before we went
on the air, asking our super producer, Casey Pegrum, who
is probably the most well traveled of the three of us,
if he had ever been to Ireland. And Casey you said,
(01:10):
you said no, Right. I don't know if I'm the
most traveled in terms of countries visited or if I'm
just the most frequently traveled, because I keep going to
Paris every year, because I actually I kind of made
my tour of Europe and then I just stayed in
Paris after that, and every time I get ready to go,
I'm like, I should see some more places, and then
I'm just like, no, I'm not. I was gonna stay here.
(01:31):
What was amazing about Ireland, the very small amount of
time I spent there was everybody had these amazing musical accents.
And this might not seem like a big deal to
a lot of US listening in Europe or maybe Australia
or other places. But here in the US, North Americans
and probably this includes Canadians as well, love the Irish accent.
(01:56):
I heard two guys getting into a street fight at
like two in the morning, and I thought they were
just being very kind to each other. One of them
was like, I'll be seeing you then, and the other
one said, oh no, I'll be seeing you. It's like
he was like, oh no, I'll and he's like yeah.
And this is the line the guy used. He said,
(02:16):
I'll see you very well. And I turned around. I
see I turned around and the police force, uh like
Alreadia they're called. They were holding these guys back, and
one of them had a bottle that he was like
brandishing at the other one. It sounded like this very polite,
maybe slightly drunken conversation between friends, right, who are just
(02:40):
trying to like one up their bromance. But no, those
guys were going to beat the tar out of each other.
We've we've we've probably sounded that way to passers by before,
slightly in our cups on the porch of the old Local.
This is the bar that we frequent, Yes, our local
bars called the Local. It's very true. Chicken wings great
chicken wing is really easy to remember. Ben, want to
take an opportunity here at the top of the show,
(03:01):
real quick. Yeah, we You and I had a very
interesting texts exchange to the other night where um, you
mentioned the fact that you had uh an add amount
of pictures of a mutual friend of ours on your
phone and you asked me if I want to subscribe
to a service called nick Picks Nicks and you just
send me this email as though it were from a boss,
saying you've you have subscribed to nick Pick. Press F
(03:22):
in the chat renamed for good luck unsubscribed by being lame,
and then I hit F and then Ben proceeded to
send me like a dozen screenshots of the iTunes reviews
for this show, and my response was, what the hell?
That was brutal? I avoid these reviews like the plague.
Explain yourself, sir. Oh. Also, don't forget that you did
(03:45):
get along with that some top notch Nick pick picks,
which a friend of ours ni Nick Benson, Admiral Turbot.
He goes, but but I bring it up because I
wanted to read. Most of these were quite good, and
Ben has a good point that a lot of our
tunes reviews are either Apple podcast or either one star
or five stars, depending on where you fall in the spectrum.
But this is one I quite enjoyed. The subject is
(04:07):
such a waste of resources, and here's the review, so
one star. The topics and headlines of the new podcast
episodes are great, but when you listen, you realize they
aren't there to cover it, but to go off on
nerd tangents and dialogue that is completely irrelevant. No offense,
But I don't want to listen to your side convos
and inside jokes. Stay on topic and present the story.
(04:29):
One of the guys is the worst and always takes
it off topic all caps. No one cares stick to
the content. He didn't identify who which one of us
was the worst, but I would conjecture that if you're
listening to the show now, and you're still listening, then
you're one of those people who likes the side convos
in the nerd chat at the top of the show.
I remember that when and I don't know who that is.
(04:50):
I feel like they're naming all three of us. There
was one There was one review I can't remember if
I sent this to that that made me laugh and
it made me think of you, Casey, because a lot
of it was telling us not not to They were like,
we don't understand. I don't understanding of this, Casey Pegram
is why are these guys fawning? That's the word they use, fawning,
(05:11):
great word f a w N. Why are they fawning
over this person? We don't know? And I thought, wow,
you have not listened to the show ever, because, uh,
super producer Casey Pegram has been there since day one.
I did see that review and it cracked me up.
Just somebody coming in the middle and be like, what,
who is this guy? Why do they keep mentioning this guy? Well,
I'll tell you we we we at. We don't we
(05:31):
fawn for a good reason. I mean, it's a fund
that comes honestly because Casey Pegram is one of both
of our favorite people. And if you can't get on
board with that, listener, then maybe you need to find
yourself a different podcast. We literally have a T shirt
with Casey's face on it, thanks again for letting us
pull that one off it right now, and Noel is
wearing one of them. Yeah, so folks on is baffled
(05:54):
by all of this, as as you are said, well, well,
they don't know the backstory of how I spent the
better part of what seven months trying to talk you
into letting me get a shirt with your face on it,
and you politely told me it was weird. But now
we're doing it for a show. Yeah, that's that's. Uh,
that was a severely I'll tolerate you've been response from
(06:15):
our good friend Casey. I'm fine with that. I think
Casey held it together delightfully. Uh. Speaking of holding it
together delightfully, we should probably do an actual show right right. So,
I'm not mentioning the beautiful lilt of the how do
we get to the reviews, I'm not mentioning the beautiful
lilt of the Irish accent for nothing. Today's show does
(06:37):
concern the Irish, but not necessarily Ireland. We're talking about
a time when the Irish invaded our fair country to
the north of the US. Canada did we do another
Canada invasion story pretty recently. We did. It was a
(06:57):
Fort Blunder, which was built on the wrong side of
the border. That's right, because we were concerned about an
invasion from Canada. This episode concerns an invasion of Canada
by the Fenians, who were members of a nineteenth century
movement that was all about Irish independence from Britain Um.
(07:18):
They were a secret organization, They were outlawed in the
British Empire um and they were also known in Britain
as the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Is this a precursor to
the IRA? A, Ben, I believe. I believe that is correct,
at least in terms of concepts, right, So the IRA
(07:42):
would be thematically descended or ideologically descended, if not directly descended.
So tell us a little bit about those roots, then,
Ben of the Fenians shut. The Finian Brotherhood was founded
in the United States in eighteen fifty eight, and it
was a precursor to things like the Irish Republican Brotherhood.
(08:02):
The members were known as Finnians and Mahoney John Mahoney,
that is, one of the founders, was a Gaelic scholar
who named his organization after the Fianna legendary band of
Irish warriors. So they trace their origins back to the
seventeen nineties when there was a rebellion seeking to end
(08:25):
British rule in Ireland, first for self government and then
later to establish an Irish Republic. When John O'Mahoney had
founded this, he did it after he had traveled to
the continent to avoid rest in Ireland, and then he
had lived in France for a little bit, still planning
to overthrow British rule in Ireland, and in eighteen fifty
(08:47):
six he came to the United States to found the
Finian Brotherhood. And in some ways the Finian Brotherhood was
aiming to become a replacement Irish government. They had adopted
a constitution, rules for general governance and so on, and
(09:08):
this was it's important to know this was an American
branch of this larger Finian movement, and the main thing
that they did originally was to raise funds and obtain
weapons to send to Ireland. The mission of the Finians
was always ultimately to overthrow and drive out the British forces.
(09:29):
So here's the thing too. Most of the Finians had
been made super battle weary and hardened rugged even by
the American Civil War where they had fought. They were experienced,
they had seen plenty of brutal and bloody battle, and
they were very, very skilled. Right. Out of all these
(09:50):
immigrants who had fought in the Civil War, ten thousand
joined the Fenians after the war ended in eighteen sixty five.
That's the U s Civil War, under the leadership of
a Brigadier General Thomas William Sweeney. They also elected that
government in exile when we're talking about New York, and
they changed their strategy. They said, instead of just moving
(10:14):
money and soldiers and weapons to Ireland, let's do something else.
Let's take the fight for Irish freedom to British Canada.
Here's how it came about. In eighteen sixty an American
(10:35):
ship called Errand's Hope E R I N S was
intercepted by the British Navy on the way to Ireland.
The ship was loaded with soldiers and ammunition bound for
this planned Finnian revolt. The mission failed and the Finnian
branch in America held an emergency convention in Philadelphia. A
(10:58):
guy named William Randall Roberts, who was a radical fire brand,
was elected president. Of the Fenians, and he said, let's
invade the British North American colonies of Canada. And they
thought this was maybe not a good idea. They thought
it was something they could pull off. They thought it
was possible and plausible. Because even then, I mean, the
(11:18):
Canadians probably have the same reputation they have now is
being pretty chill, agreeable folks. Right. It's interesting because the
Fenians already had some support politically in the US and
the government didn't really mess with their meetings or gatherings
and stuff, and Canada's borders were virtually unsecured. The only
(11:40):
guards they had were citizen volunteers. So all these veterans
who have military experience and are armed because they were
able to get this I didn't know this. After the
Civil War. They were able to purchase their rifles and
AMMO at a super deep discount, like, hey, congratulations on
surviving this usual lead cost you know, but we'll give
(12:03):
it to you for two just because of like as
a as a reward almost for their service. Congratulations, you
are alive. Here's a deep discount for you. Let's you
know better than nothing. I guess I know. The next
thing you want is another, another gun, and more stuff
to do, that's right, and more and more people to
kill and uh, protect yourself from from being killed by.
But you know, if there was anyone I wanted to
do that with, it would be the Canadians. But that
(12:24):
could be entirely incorrect. That reputation could be absolutely um
a fabrication, and Canadians could actually be bloodthirsty killers. But
we don't really have that information here in this story right. Well,
we do know is that the idea for the invasion
or the seeds were planted as far back as eighteen
sixty five when the Fenians in the us UH split
(12:47):
up into two factions. One was headed by William Roberts,
the other by a guy named John o' mahoney um
who was a member it was one of the founding
members of the Brother Right, and the Robert's wing is
actually the one that suggested doing this invasion of Canada. Um.
And here are some of the supporting details that they
(13:08):
put forth as a justification for this plan. They pointed
to the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of
these battle hardened veterans that could support this invasion and
if they did it and timed it in the right way,
it could bring about a real revolution in Ireland if
they controlled Canada. It would also force the British government
(13:31):
to be engaged in two different wars separated by an ocean,
which logistically is incredibly expensive. And eventually they realized that
that rebellion they were hoping for, the revolution they were
hoping for in Ireland, was not actually going to take
place or gain the momentum they wanted it to gain.
(13:52):
They kept with the idea of the invasion, but the
goal changed. Instead, they said, let's make sure we can
engineer a border incident between the US and Britain that
will force them into another war. And you know, it's
it's no secret at this point that the US and
Britainer is still very sore at one another. The British
(14:15):
Empire heavily favored the Confederacy during the Civil War, which
is a fact that many people are unaware of. Uh
During the war, in fact, the British government almost granted
diplomatic recognition to the Confederacy. And this kind of tense,
uncool vibe between the US and the Brits was probably
(14:39):
not going to lead to another full scale war, but
it did mean that the US government was certainly not
going to go out of its way to assist British
forces in Canada. As a matter of fact, we have
we have solid proof that President Andrew Johnson was aware
of the Finian's plan for this Irish invasion of Canada,
(15:00):
but he really do anything to stop it. He was
kind of like Gene Wilder playing Willie Wonka in the
UH the original and good adaptation of Charlie and Chocolate Factory,
where he says, no, stop, hell please. Yeah it's true. Um,
So let's go a little deeper into what the US
role in this whole thing was. Yeah, why were they
(15:21):
okay with all of this? So, like you said before,
I mean Andrew Johnson was clearly more or less okay
with letting the Finnian Brotherhood kind of poke Britain in
the eye, but he actually had some more strategic, kind
of long term things to gain here. UH. US was
really deep into this idea of manifest destiny of expanding
(15:42):
their territorial holdings UM to the west, and the government
actually participated in this planned rebellion UM. Johnson met with
some of the leaders of the Fenians UH and helped
get them discounts on weapons um that they sold to them,
and he gave them his backing with the understanding that
(16:03):
if the Irish did take over Canada, they would sort
of be in league with the United States. That would
be better than having a territory bordering our country that
was controlled by the British, who, while we were tasked
with at the time, we're not, you know, fast friends.
There's a lot of like simmering resentments held over from
obviously the Revolutionary War, right uh, and even during the
(16:25):
Civil War. At the time, Johnson is pressing the British
government to pay reparations for different damages incurred during the
Civil War for which he feels they are responsible. And
we've still okay, back to our two competing Finnian factions.
This is the Finnian faction fact check. I got through that,
(16:45):
all right, thank you, sir, thank you. So these two
different factions launched two different operations in April of eighteen
sixty six. The O'Mahoney Wing tries to seize an island
near New Brunswick, but the US Navy oddly enough disperses them.
They had gathered in Maine, but they were disbanded under
(17:08):
the eyes of watchful US troops. No one in the
federal government was super stoked about reigning in these Fenians
because they thought that they might lose the Irish vote,
which was a huge voting block right. So as a result,
the Fenians were able to organize a much larger campaign. Later,
(17:28):
the other wing, the Robert's Wing, launched its attack on
Canada under the command of a civil war veteran on
June the first, eighteen sixty six, General O'Neill led a
force of over one thousand men into Canadian territory near
Fort Erie and Ontario, and initially they had some some
pretty good success. They won two battles, including the Battle
(17:51):
of Ridgeway, and they only had about ten people die
on their side, same number of people dead, around the
same number dead on the Canadian side. But what was
is the What was the Battle of Ridgeway? And why
it's funny because in our notes here we haven't listed
as the so called Battle of Ridgeway. Was it just
too small to be a battle or what was it?
(18:11):
So this conflict had had several names. There was the
Battle of lime Ridge or Limestone Ridge, and of course
the Battle of Ridgeway. Um and this began this conflict
on the morning of June the second, nineteen sixty six,
and it was near a village called Ridgeway and also
a town in Canada called Fort erie Um, which is
now Ontario, And there were eight hundred Canadian soldiers and
(18:33):
they faced off against around the same number a little
less actually Finnians, around eight between seven hundred Finians who
had crossed the Niagara River from Buffalo, New York. And
it's interesting because historically this is a significant thing for
Canada because it's the first battle of the Industrial Age
that was fought entirely by Canadians and led exclusively by
(18:58):
Canadian troops, because they were typically part of a British offensive. Right,
it's a good point. This also the last battle fought
in Ontario against a foreign invasion force, and in nineteen
twenty one it became a national Historic site. So one
thing that I think reflects well on the character of
(19:21):
the Fenians in this conflict is that the troops were
respectful of local civilians and Canadian prisoners of war. In fact,
one Canadian soldier, Lance Corporal William Ellis, later writing about
his experience, remarked that the Fenians treatment of myself and
the other prisoners, was kind and considerate in the extreme.
(19:42):
So they've got that contagious Canadian vibe, right, it gets
into everything. O'Neill was aware that the Canadian forces overall
were much much larger than the team he had put together,
and eventually those forces would come to bear. So on
the third of June he said, Okay, we're gonna take
the army back into US territory and we're gonna wait
(20:04):
for some friendly reinforcements. But at this point the US government,
because politics is nothing if not fickle, the US government said,
all right, maybe this is getting out of control, Like
we don't like the Brits either, but come on, guys.
So once they got back across the border, O'Neill's army
(20:25):
was met by American troops who said, nope, no more
crossing the border. You can't make any more attacks, and
over the next few days, the American forces broke up
the Finian army. O'Neill was even arrested and temporarily incarcerated. Yeah,
I think the U. S marshals sexually swept through and
(20:46):
and did the the arresting and incarcerating in question. There Um,
there was a smaller incursion um into Canada a smaller
contingent of a Finian troops um. But this was pretty
much quashed as well. Uh, the second Finian Army UM
was broken up by the US forces when they got
(21:09):
back to American soil, and by the eighth of June,
it was all over. That was it. That was it. Yeah,
there was kind there with a whimper really yeah. So
that's why it's a so called battle, right, It's more
of a series of skirmishes. About eight hundred and fifty
Fenians were captured by US authorities, as you have mentioned.
Another one hundred were caught by the Canadian militia. There
(21:30):
was another raid, no casualties. A lot of the reason
there was no casualties because US federal authorities had taken
the Finians guns and ammunition, and the Fenians eventually after
these failed attempts are more or less disbanded. Because the
entire invasion demonstrated the futility of their strategy. It proved
(21:53):
that Canadian forces would fight to preserve their land, and
more importantly, they could mobilize thousands of volunteers from their
population to fight for it. There wasn't much hope that
the Finians could get as many people as they needed
to first seize Canadian territory, much less hold it against
volunteer Canadian forces that far outnumbered them. And the Fineans
(22:18):
learned that no matter what the US government might say
or how it might feel about the British Empire, they're
not going to offer any real support, you know what
I mean? They were They were kind of doing a
proxy war thing exactly, That's totally true. So, um, what
happened in eight seventy was that a convention took place
(22:39):
within the Brotherhood and that's when they decided to launch
another attack on Canada because it worked so well the
first let's do this, they're there, they were resolved, and
so John O'Neill um was to head up the Finian forces. Um,
and we have John Boyle, John Boil O'Reilly that is,
who is a journalist, who is who's who's hanging out
(23:02):
as well. O'Reilly is the reason that we have a
lot of the juicy details from from this these conflicts,
and uh, this one was particularly disastrous for the concept
of Finnianism and these fair United States. Right. What's strange
is that they did have an unintended benefit for nationalism
(23:27):
it just wasn't Irish nationalism. Those raids in eighteen sixty
six didn't do much for Irish nationalism patriotism, but they
became a defining moment in Canadian history. In February of
eighteen sixty seven, various Canadian colonies were combined into the
Dominion of Canada, while some factions of Fenians continued fighting.
(23:50):
I live the alliteration here. They clearly, if you just
look at your closest available world map, did not manage
to liberate northern Ireland. Yet a ship full of Irish
American fighters landed in western Ireland in May of eighteen
sixty seven. In eighteen seventy there was another Finnian raid.
In October eighteen seventy one, a few dozen Finians marched
(24:14):
in Manitoba or towards Manitoba, hoping to join some rebels.
They got arrested. They just couldn't get the leverage they need.
But you have to wonder, what do you think those
guys would think of Brexit if they heard about it now?
Because Ireland is Ireland proper is still going to be
a member of the European Union. It's a good question.
I mean, I think it would It seems like I
(24:37):
don't know. I mean, Brexit is more about British Britain
for the British, and this one's sort of about Irish
Ireland for the Irish, or like breaking away from Britain,
so I think they'd probably be into it, right. Yeah,
I'm wondering because the idea of Northern Ireland gaining independence
to retain EU status, you know, I I just wonder
(24:59):
these these are new politics to us, but they are
politics with a long, long story. Well, Casey, I think
you've you've spent the most time out of the three
of us in the EU. Do you do you have
any insight on what's going to happen? Could breaksit in
a way end up reunineteen Ireland reuniting or reigniting the
troubles is kind of the fear um that the kind
(25:22):
of the very delicate piece that's been worked out there
since the height of the troubles sounds like it could
be in jeopardy again, and that that border with Northern
Ireland could become contentious and could be more of like
a I think a patrolled border. There could be difficulties
with like imports and exports. So it's I don't know.
It's it's a very like messy and delicate situation. From
(25:43):
what I understand, I'm far, far, far from an expert
in that region, but that's that's kind of what I've
heard Casey on the case. And we want to hear
your take, folks, because one thing this show has taught
us is that history is chock full of strange attempts
at revolution that sort of devolved into a couple of
(26:05):
dozen dudes, maybe with guns, maybe not, Yeah, I mean
hopefully with guns. It makes for a more interesting story, right,
What What are your what are your weirdest invasion stories
that you've encountered locally or in your travels. Let us know.
You can find us on Instagram, you can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter. Were ridiculous
Historians on Facebook where you can meet one of our
(26:28):
favorite parts of the show, your fellow listeners if you wish.
You can find me on Instagram at how Now Noel
Brown or I just you know, do various and sundry
things around the house and a little bit of travel,
a little bit of kicking it with the kid and
going to shows and whatnot. And I think Ben is
on there as well, I am. The rumors are true.
You can find me at ben Boland. You'll see me
(26:48):
getting kicked into and out of various places on my
quest for the perfect slice of pizza. I'm kidding. When
it comes to food, I am. I'm a I'm a
garbage fire, I'm a dumpster. Just throw food at me.
I don't need to plate I will just I'll catch
it and eat it. But yeah, you can see some
some various, ill informed misadventures there at ben Bowland. We
(27:12):
want to give a big thanks to super producer Casey
le Bouche peg Room, who want to also thank Christopher Hasiotis,
eve's Jeff cot Gabe Luzier, our research associate, and a
new edition to the show, research pal Ryan Parrish, and
of course Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'll see
you next time. Fix For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
(27:38):
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:28):
to the show Ridiculous Historians, and hello to you and
whatever neck of the global would you find yourself today.
I gotta tell you this episode and this topic for
today's episode is calling up some memories for me of
a very strange weekend. There was one time where circumstances
(00:49):
found me in Dublin for like twenty six hours. You
do that from time to time, don't you. Man. Things happen,
the old things happened. We were just before we went
on the air, asking our super producer, Casey Pegrum, who
is probably the most well traveled of the three of us,
if he had ever been to Ireland. And Casey you said,
(01:10):
you said no, Right. I don't know if I'm the
most traveled in terms of countries visited or if I'm
just the most frequently traveled, because I keep going to
Paris every year, because I actually I kind of made
my tour of Europe and then I just stayed in
Paris after that, and every time I get ready to go,
I'm like, I should see some more places, and then
I'm just like, no, I'm not. I was gonna stay here.
(01:31):
What was amazing about Ireland, the very small amount of
time I spent there was everybody had these amazing musical accents.
And this might not seem like a big deal to
a lot of US listening in Europe or maybe Australia
or other places. But here in the US, North Americans
and probably this includes Canadians as well, love the Irish accent.
(01:56):
I heard two guys getting into a street fight at
like two in the morning, and I thought they were
just being very kind to each other. One of them
was like, I'll be seeing you then, and the other
one said, oh no, I'll be seeing you. It's like
he was like, oh no, I'll and he's like yeah.
And this is the line the guy used. He said,
(02:16):
I'll see you very well. And I turned around. I
see I turned around and the police force, uh like
Alreadia they're called. They were holding these guys back, and
one of them had a bottle that he was like
brandishing at the other one. It sounded like this very polite,
maybe slightly drunken conversation between friends, right, who are just
(02:40):
trying to like one up their bromance. But no, those
guys were going to beat the tar out of each other.
We've we've we've probably sounded that way to passers by before,
slightly in our cups on the porch of the old Local.
This is the bar that we frequent, Yes, our local
bars called the Local. It's very true. Chicken wings great
chicken wing is really easy to remember. Ben, want to
take an opportunity here at the top of the show,
(03:01):
real quick. Yeah, we You and I had a very
interesting texts exchange to the other night where um, you
mentioned the fact that you had uh an add amount
of pictures of a mutual friend of ours on your
phone and you asked me if I want to subscribe
to a service called nick Picks Nicks and you just
send me this email as though it were from a boss,
saying you've you have subscribed to nick Pick. Press F
(03:22):
in the chat renamed for good luck unsubscribed by being lame,
and then I hit F and then Ben proceeded to
send me like a dozen screenshots of the iTunes reviews
for this show, and my response was, what the hell?
That was brutal? I avoid these reviews like the plague.
Explain yourself, sir. Oh. Also, don't forget that you did
(03:45):
get along with that some top notch Nick pick picks,
which a friend of ours ni Nick Benson, Admiral Turbot.
He goes, but but I bring it up because I
wanted to read. Most of these were quite good, and
Ben has a good point that a lot of our
tunes reviews are either Apple podcast or either one star
or five stars, depending on where you fall in the spectrum.
But this is one I quite enjoyed. The subject is
(04:07):
such a waste of resources, and here's the review, so
one star. The topics and headlines of the new podcast
episodes are great, but when you listen, you realize they
aren't there to cover it, but to go off on
nerd tangents and dialogue that is completely irrelevant. No offense,
But I don't want to listen to your side convos
and inside jokes. Stay on topic and present the story.
(04:29):
One of the guys is the worst and always takes
it off topic all caps. No one cares stick to
the content. He didn't identify who which one of us
was the worst, but I would conjecture that if you're
listening to the show now, and you're still listening, then
you're one of those people who likes the side convos
in the nerd chat at the top of the show.
I remember that when and I don't know who that is.
(04:50):
I feel like they're naming all three of us. There
was one There was one review I can't remember if
I sent this to that that made me laugh and
it made me think of you, Casey, because a lot
of it was telling us not not to They were like,
we don't understand. I don't understanding of this, Casey Pegram
is why are these guys fawning? That's the word they use, fawning,
(05:11):
great word f a w N. Why are they fawning
over this person? We don't know? And I thought, wow,
you have not listened to the show ever, because, uh,
super producer Casey Pegram has been there since day one.
I did see that review and it cracked me up.
Just somebody coming in the middle and be like, what,
who is this guy? Why do they keep mentioning this guy? Well,
I'll tell you we we we at. We don't we
(05:31):
fawn for a good reason. I mean, it's a fund
that comes honestly because Casey Pegram is one of both
of our favorite people. And if you can't get on
board with that, listener, then maybe you need to find
yourself a different podcast. We literally have a T shirt
with Casey's face on it, thanks again for letting us
pull that one off it right now, and Noel is
wearing one of them. Yeah, so folks on is baffled
(05:54):
by all of this, as as you are said, well, well,
they don't know the backstory of how I spent the
better part of what seven months trying to talk you
into letting me get a shirt with your face on it,
and you politely told me it was weird. But now
we're doing it for a show. Yeah, that's that's. Uh,
that was a severely I'll tolerate you've been response from
(06:15):
our good friend Casey. I'm fine with that. I think
Casey held it together delightfully. Uh. Speaking of holding it
together delightfully, we should probably do an actual show right right. So,
I'm not mentioning the beautiful lilt of the how do
we get to the reviews, I'm not mentioning the beautiful
lilt of the Irish accent for nothing. Today's show does
(06:37):
concern the Irish, but not necessarily Ireland. We're talking about
a time when the Irish invaded our fair country to
the north of the US. Canada did we do another
Canada invasion story pretty recently. We did. It was a
(06:57):
Fort Blunder, which was built on the wrong side of
the border. That's right, because we were concerned about an
invasion from Canada. This episode concerns an invasion of Canada
by the Fenians, who were members of a nineteenth century
movement that was all about Irish independence from Britain Um.
(07:18):
They were a secret organization, They were outlawed in the
British Empire um and they were also known in Britain
as the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Is this a precursor to
the IRA? A, Ben, I believe. I believe that is correct,
at least in terms of concepts, right, So the IRA
(07:42):
would be thematically descended or ideologically descended, if not directly descended.
So tell us a little bit about those roots, then,
Ben of the Fenians shut. The Finian Brotherhood was founded
in the United States in eighteen fifty eight, and it
was a precursor to things like the Irish Republican Brotherhood.
(08:02):
The members were known as Finnians and Mahoney John Mahoney,
that is, one of the founders, was a Gaelic scholar
who named his organization after the Fianna legendary band of
Irish warriors. So they trace their origins back to the
seventeen nineties when there was a rebellion seeking to end
(08:25):
British rule in Ireland, first for self government and then
later to establish an Irish Republic. When John O'Mahoney had
founded this, he did it after he had traveled to
the continent to avoid rest in Ireland, and then he
had lived in France for a little bit, still planning
to overthrow British rule in Ireland, and in eighteen fifty
(08:47):
six he came to the United States to found the
Finian Brotherhood. And in some ways the Finian Brotherhood was
aiming to become a replacement Irish government. They had adopted
a constitution, rules for general governance and so on, and
(09:08):
this was it's important to know this was an American
branch of this larger Finian movement, and the main thing
that they did originally was to raise funds and obtain
weapons to send to Ireland. The mission of the Finians
was always ultimately to overthrow and drive out the British forces.
(09:29):
So here's the thing too. Most of the Finians had
been made super battle weary and hardened rugged even by
the American Civil War where they had fought. They were experienced,
they had seen plenty of brutal and bloody battle, and
they were very, very skilled. Right. Out of all these
(09:50):
immigrants who had fought in the Civil War, ten thousand
joined the Fenians after the war ended in eighteen sixty five.
That's the U s Civil War, under the leadership of
a Brigadier General Thomas William Sweeney. They also elected that
government in exile when we're talking about New York, and
they changed their strategy. They said, instead of just moving
(10:14):
money and soldiers and weapons to Ireland, let's do something else.
Let's take the fight for Irish freedom to British Canada.
Here's how it came about. In eighteen sixty an American
(10:35):
ship called Errand's Hope E R I N S was
intercepted by the British Navy on the way to Ireland.
The ship was loaded with soldiers and ammunition bound for
this planned Finnian revolt. The mission failed and the Finnian
branch in America held an emergency convention in Philadelphia. A
(10:58):
guy named William Randall Roberts, who was a radical fire brand,
was elected president. Of the Fenians, and he said, let's
invade the British North American colonies of Canada. And they
thought this was maybe not a good idea. They thought
it was something they could pull off. They thought it
was possible and plausible. Because even then, I mean, the
(11:18):
Canadians probably have the same reputation they have now is
being pretty chill, agreeable folks. Right. It's interesting because the
Fenians already had some support politically in the US and
the government didn't really mess with their meetings or gatherings
and stuff, and Canada's borders were virtually unsecured. The only
(11:40):
guards they had were citizen volunteers. So all these veterans
who have military experience and are armed because they were
able to get this I didn't know this. After the
Civil War. They were able to purchase their rifles and
AMMO at a super deep discount, like, hey, congratulations on
surviving this usual lead cost you know, but we'll give
(12:03):
it to you for two just because of like as
a as a reward almost for their service. Congratulations, you
are alive. Here's a deep discount for you. Let's you
know better than nothing. I guess I know. The next
thing you want is another, another gun, and more stuff
to do, that's right, and more and more people to
kill and uh, protect yourself from from being killed by.
But you know, if there was anyone I wanted to
do that with, it would be the Canadians. But that
(12:24):
could be entirely incorrect. That reputation could be absolutely um
a fabrication, and Canadians could actually be bloodthirsty killers. But
we don't really have that information here in this story right. Well,
we do know is that the idea for the invasion
or the seeds were planted as far back as eighteen
sixty five when the Fenians in the us UH split
(12:47):
up into two factions. One was headed by William Roberts,
the other by a guy named John o' mahoney um
who was a member it was one of the founding
members of the Brother Right, and the Robert's wing is
actually the one that suggested doing this invasion of Canada. Um.
And here are some of the supporting details that they
(13:08):
put forth as a justification for this plan. They pointed
to the fact that there were hundreds of thousands of
these battle hardened veterans that could support this invasion and
if they did it and timed it in the right way,
it could bring about a real revolution in Ireland if
they controlled Canada. It would also force the British government
(13:31):
to be engaged in two different wars separated by an ocean,
which logistically is incredibly expensive. And eventually they realized that
that rebellion they were hoping for, the revolution they were
hoping for in Ireland, was not actually going to take
place or gain the momentum they wanted it to gain.
(13:52):
They kept with the idea of the invasion, but the
goal changed. Instead, they said, let's make sure we can
engineer a border incident between the US and Britain that
will force them into another war. And you know, it's
it's no secret at this point that the US and
Britainer is still very sore at one another. The British
(14:15):
Empire heavily favored the Confederacy during the Civil War, which
is a fact that many people are unaware of. Uh
During the war, in fact, the British government almost granted
diplomatic recognition to the Confederacy. And this kind of tense,
uncool vibe between the US and the Brits was probably
(14:39):
not going to lead to another full scale war, but
it did mean that the US government was certainly not
going to go out of its way to assist British
forces in Canada. As a matter of fact, we have
we have solid proof that President Andrew Johnson was aware
of the Finian's plan for this Irish invasion of Canada,
(15:00):
but he really do anything to stop it. He was
kind of like Gene Wilder playing Willie Wonka in the
UH the original and good adaptation of Charlie and Chocolate Factory,
where he says, no, stop, hell please. Yeah it's true. Um,
So let's go a little deeper into what the US
role in this whole thing was. Yeah, why were they
(15:21):
okay with all of this? So, like you said before,
I mean Andrew Johnson was clearly more or less okay
with letting the Finnian Brotherhood kind of poke Britain in
the eye, but he actually had some more strategic, kind
of long term things to gain here. UH. US was
really deep into this idea of manifest destiny of expanding
(15:42):
their territorial holdings UM to the west, and the government
actually participated in this planned rebellion UM. Johnson met with
some of the leaders of the Fenians UH and helped
get them discounts on weapons um that they sold to them,
and he gave them his backing with the understanding that
(16:03):
if the Irish did take over Canada, they would sort
of be in league with the United States. That would
be better than having a territory bordering our country that
was controlled by the British, who, while we were tasked
with at the time, we're not, you know, fast friends.
There's a lot of like simmering resentments held over from
obviously the Revolutionary War, right uh, and even during the
(16:25):
Civil War. At the time, Johnson is pressing the British
government to pay reparations for different damages incurred during the
Civil War for which he feels they are responsible. And
we've still okay, back to our two competing Finnian factions.
This is the Finnian faction fact check. I got through that,
(16:45):
all right, thank you, sir, thank you. So these two
different factions launched two different operations in April of eighteen
sixty six. The O'Mahoney Wing tries to seize an island
near New Brunswick, but the US Navy oddly enough disperses them.
They had gathered in Maine, but they were disbanded under
(17:08):
the eyes of watchful US troops. No one in the
federal government was super stoked about reigning in these Fenians
because they thought that they might lose the Irish vote,
which was a huge voting block right. So as a result,
the Fenians were able to organize a much larger campaign. Later,
(17:28):
the other wing, the Robert's Wing, launched its attack on
Canada under the command of a civil war veteran on
June the first, eighteen sixty six, General O'Neill led a
force of over one thousand men into Canadian territory near
Fort Erie and Ontario, and initially they had some some
pretty good success. They won two battles, including the Battle
(17:51):
of Ridgeway, and they only had about ten people die
on their side, same number of people dead, around the
same number dead on the Canadian side. But what was
is the What was the Battle of Ridgeway? And why
it's funny because in our notes here we haven't listed
as the so called Battle of Ridgeway. Was it just
too small to be a battle or what was it?
(18:11):
So this conflict had had several names. There was the
Battle of lime Ridge or Limestone Ridge, and of course
the Battle of Ridgeway. Um and this began this conflict
on the morning of June the second, nineteen sixty six,
and it was near a village called Ridgeway and also
a town in Canada called Fort erie Um, which is
now Ontario, And there were eight hundred Canadian soldiers and
(18:33):
they faced off against around the same number a little
less actually Finnians, around eight between seven hundred Finians who
had crossed the Niagara River from Buffalo, New York. And
it's interesting because historically this is a significant thing for
Canada because it's the first battle of the Industrial Age
that was fought entirely by Canadians and led exclusively by
(18:58):
Canadian troops, because they were typically part of a British offensive. Right,
it's a good point. This also the last battle fought
in Ontario against a foreign invasion force, and in nineteen
twenty one it became a national Historic site. So one
thing that I think reflects well on the character of
(19:21):
the Fenians in this conflict is that the troops were
respectful of local civilians and Canadian prisoners of war. In fact,
one Canadian soldier, Lance Corporal William Ellis, later writing about
his experience, remarked that the Fenians treatment of myself and
the other prisoners, was kind and considerate in the extreme.
(19:42):
So they've got that contagious Canadian vibe, right, it gets
into everything. O'Neill was aware that the Canadian forces overall
were much much larger than the team he had put together,
and eventually those forces would come to bear. So on
the third of June he said, Okay, we're gonna take
the army back into US territory and we're gonna wait
(20:04):
for some friendly reinforcements. But at this point the US government,
because politics is nothing if not fickle, the US government said,
all right, maybe this is getting out of control, Like
we don't like the Brits either, but come on, guys.
So once they got back across the border, O'Neill's army
(20:25):
was met by American troops who said, nope, no more
crossing the border. You can't make any more attacks, and
over the next few days, the American forces broke up
the Finian army. O'Neill was even arrested and temporarily incarcerated. Yeah,
I think the U. S marshals sexually swept through and
(20:46):
and did the the arresting and incarcerating in question. There Um,
there was a smaller incursion um into Canada a smaller
contingent of a Finian troops um. But this was pretty
much quashed as well. Uh, the second Finian Army UM
was broken up by the US forces when they got
(21:09):
back to American soil, and by the eighth of June,
it was all over. That was it. That was it. Yeah,
there was kind there with a whimper really yeah. So
that's why it's a so called battle, right, It's more
of a series of skirmishes. About eight hundred and fifty
Fenians were captured by US authorities, as you have mentioned.
Another one hundred were caught by the Canadian militia. There
(21:30):
was another raid, no casualties. A lot of the reason
there was no casualties because US federal authorities had taken
the Finians guns and ammunition, and the Fenians eventually after
these failed attempts are more or less disbanded. Because the
entire invasion demonstrated the futility of their strategy. It proved
(21:53):
that Canadian forces would fight to preserve their land, and
more importantly, they could mobilize thousands of volunteers from their
population to fight for it. There wasn't much hope that
the Finians could get as many people as they needed
to first seize Canadian territory, much less hold it against
volunteer Canadian forces that far outnumbered them. And the Fineans
(22:18):
learned that no matter what the US government might say
or how it might feel about the British Empire, they're
not going to offer any real support, you know what
I mean? They were They were kind of doing a
proxy war thing exactly, That's totally true. So, um, what
happened in eight seventy was that a convention took place
(22:39):
within the Brotherhood and that's when they decided to launch
another attack on Canada because it worked so well the
first let's do this, they're there, they were resolved, and
so John O'Neill um was to head up the Finian forces. Um,
and we have John Boyle, John Boil O'Reilly that is,
who is a journalist, who is who's who's hanging out
(23:02):
as well. O'Reilly is the reason that we have a
lot of the juicy details from from this these conflicts,
and uh, this one was particularly disastrous for the concept
of Finnianism and these fair United States. Right. What's strange
is that they did have an unintended benefit for nationalism
(23:27):
it just wasn't Irish nationalism. Those raids in eighteen sixty
six didn't do much for Irish nationalism patriotism, but they
became a defining moment in Canadian history. In February of
eighteen sixty seven, various Canadian colonies were combined into the
Dominion of Canada, while some factions of Fenians continued fighting.
(23:50):
I live the alliteration here. They clearly, if you just
look at your closest available world map, did not manage
to liberate northern Ireland. Yet a ship full of Irish
American fighters landed in western Ireland in May of eighteen
sixty seven. In eighteen seventy there was another Finnian raid.
In October eighteen seventy one, a few dozen Finians marched
(24:14):
in Manitoba or towards Manitoba, hoping to join some rebels.
They got arrested. They just couldn't get the leverage they need.
But you have to wonder, what do you think those
guys would think of Brexit if they heard about it now?
Because Ireland is Ireland proper is still going to be
a member of the European Union. It's a good question.
I mean, I think it would It seems like I
(24:37):
don't know. I mean, Brexit is more about British Britain
for the British, and this one's sort of about Irish
Ireland for the Irish, or like breaking away from Britain,
so I think they'd probably be into it, right. Yeah,
I'm wondering because the idea of Northern Ireland gaining independence
to retain EU status, you know, I I just wonder
(24:59):
these these are new politics to us, but they are
politics with a long, long story. Well, Casey, I think
you've you've spent the most time out of the three
of us in the EU. Do you do you have
any insight on what's going to happen? Could breaksit in
a way end up reunineteen Ireland reuniting or reigniting the
troubles is kind of the fear um that the kind
(25:22):
of the very delicate piece that's been worked out there
since the height of the troubles sounds like it could
be in jeopardy again, and that that border with Northern
Ireland could become contentious and could be more of like
a I think a patrolled border. There could be difficulties
with like imports and exports. So it's I don't know.
It's it's a very like messy and delicate situation. From
(25:43):
what I understand, I'm far, far, far from an expert
in that region, but that's that's kind of what I've
heard Casey on the case. And we want to hear
your take, folks, because one thing this show has taught
us is that history is chock full of strange attempts
at revolution that sort of devolved into a couple of
(26:05):
dozen dudes, maybe with guns, maybe not, Yeah, I mean
hopefully with guns. It makes for a more interesting story, right,
What What are your what are your weirdest invasion stories
that you've encountered locally or in your travels. Let us know.
You can find us on Instagram, you can find us
on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter. Were ridiculous
Historians on Facebook where you can meet one of our
(26:28):
favorite parts of the show, your fellow listeners if you wish.
You can find me on Instagram at how Now Noel
Brown or I just you know, do various and sundry
things around the house and a little bit of travel,
a little bit of kicking it with the kid and
going to shows and whatnot. And I think Ben is
on there as well, I am. The rumors are true.
You can find me at ben Boland. You'll see me
(26:48):
getting kicked into and out of various places on my
quest for the perfect slice of pizza. I'm kidding. When
it comes to food, I am. I'm a I'm a
garbage fire, I'm a dumpster. Just throw food at me.
I don't need to plate I will just I'll catch
it and eat it. But yeah, you can see some
some various, ill informed misadventures there at ben Bowland. We
(27:12):
want to give a big thanks to super producer Casey
le Bouche peg Room, who want to also thank Christopher Hasiotis,
eve's Jeff cot Gabe Luzier, our research associate, and a
new edition to the show, research pal Ryan Parrish, and
of course Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'll see
you next time. Fix For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
(27:38):
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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