May 21, 2019 • 32 mins
A misunderstanding of the geography of the Great Lakes started a feud, known as the Toledo War, between the state of Ohio and a territory called Michigan. Tune in to Ridiculous History to hear how the conflict between these lands was solved.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. AH
(00:27):
State Rivalries. One of my favorite things about traveling around
this fair nation of ours is that regardless of what
state you find yourself in, you can find another state
that most of the people in that state hate. So
if you go to Alabama, you'll find a lot of
people who hate Georgia. If you go to Georgia, you'll
find a lot of people who hate Alabama. Hi. My
(00:49):
name is Ben, Hi, my name is Nolan. I was
just recently in or again driving around in a rental
car with California plates, and I was I was counseled
that I better tread lie because that's not a good look.
And people from Oregon do not cotton to those city
slickers from California crossing over into their fair state. And
here's the problem. The car was in It was a
(01:10):
big giant SUV, so a real hog of the road,
and it had a tear trigger horn, so I was
constantly accidentally honking at people in traffic and getting some
pretty nasty looks. Well, listeners, super producer Casey Pegram, and
I can assure you that that Noel is a responsible driver,
(01:30):
and you don't just lay on your horn. You know,
it's tough when you're driving a rental car and you're right,
you're right about California. A lot of people have been
moving to Oregon, especially the western part of the state
by the coast. And when I had spent time in Portland's, uh,
that's one thing everybody got behind. They were like, all
these Californians, California coming in here, taking over our state.
(01:53):
Stay on the four oh five. So so today's story
is a story about state rivalry. But it's not about
that kind of you know, funny. Let's tell one liner,
Joe sort of rivalry. Um, what do we mean by
one liner joke? I'll tell an example that makes fun
(02:14):
of Georgia. Since this is our state, of course, we
don't want to offend anybody. So so let's say you're
in Alabama, you're in Florida, and someone says, hey, did
you hear about that hurricane that hits Savannah? And they
say no, what happened? They said, well, it did like
millions of dollars worth of improvements. That's a that's a
joke that you hear thrown around a lot. Savannah is
(02:36):
a beautiful lot of city, though, Ben who would say
that about Savanna. Who would say that, I don't know jerks,
who are these monsters? Well, they're jokes. Savannah is a
town with a lot of histories to get a weird vibe.
And there's a like a nuclear weapon lost off the
coast there. Did you know that? I didn't, but I
know there's a lot of ghosts there. Yes. Yeah, it
goes on those ghost deep port towns like in New Orleans,
(02:56):
and it's oh man, yeah, we should we should go
down there. We should go down there on a ridiculous
history field trip. We could do a ghost tour. We
could do a ghost tour. I think I think it's
in the budget. What do you say, let's do in
case here you down for a ghost tour. I'd love
to do that. Yeah, Savers going to Hawaii, they can
at least send us to Savannah for a ghost tour.
That really uh Savers and Food Lifestyle and travel show.
(03:18):
It's also involves food science. Do check it out if
you're did a chance to your friends Lauren Voge, Obama
and any Reese who are going to why that is true?
I asked them to bring back some spam for me.
We'll see, you know, they sell spam here in the States. Yeah,
but it's different. There are more flavors in Hawaii. Okay,
did you specifically ask for a flavor? Just say give
me get weird with it. Say give me one that
(03:39):
I can't get in the States. It's sort of like
all those different flavors of kit cats that you can
only get in Japan. Yeah. I have a bag of those.
If I desk really like the green tea ones green
tea is good. I get hip to banana. Um. Also,
Hawaii is, I think, per capita, the world's largest consumer
of spam. Remember when we did an episode on spam
with any from Saver and we talked about how they
(03:59):
have to keep it under lock and key because it's
such a nonperishable item that they can just flip it
out of their trunks once they, you know, do a
big spam heist. Yeah. I used to have spam in
my go bag. But the weight ratio is anyway. Anyway, anyway,
State rivals right, that's um state rivalries. Today's episode is
about a state rivalry. It is about the fair states
(04:22):
of Ohio and Michigan, who nowadays nol neither of us
are are big football fanatics. Football football. Yes, American football fanatics. Yeah,
neither of us are are huge American football fanatics, nowhere
near as insane and rabid about it as Casey Pegram is. Uh.
(04:43):
But even we know that Michigan and Ohio are famous
for how much their college football teams hate each other
because it says it right here on this out line. Yeah,
that's how you and I know that. But it's true.
And who knows. I mean, perhaps the rivalry in in
in question today has had historical hold on the relationship
between these two states and his you know, I would
(05:05):
say a football rivalry or a little healthy josh and
around between you know, rough and tumble footballers is a
lot healthier and safer than what has been described as
the Toledo War, a clash between Ohioans. And I'm gonna
go with my favorite Michiganders because in our research material
(05:26):
sometimes it says Michiganians and sometimes I yeah, right right
in any Michigan folk, let us know what you one
do you prefer um. But this conflict took place in
eighteen thirty five, and it had to do with the
fact that both Ohio, which was a state at the time,
and Michigan which was not yet a state at the time.
(05:48):
Both thought they owned this little strip of land. It's
almost like a gaza strip kind of situation between two
warring nations, uh, only this case it's you know, there's
their states and a state and a not quite yet state, um,
and there's this little strip of land between them that
each of them feel like they have a claim to,
right right. This was a long time in coming, and
(06:09):
it's a uh. It's based on a series of misunderstandings.
First of all, I love the name Toledo War. It
sounds like it's the name of an album. In the
US Congress drafted what they called the Northwest Ordinance, and
the Northwest Ordinance said that two hundred and sixty thousand
(06:30):
square miles of territory around the Great Lakes would be
carved into a handful of states. The law also said
that the border between Ohio and Michigan was to run
on a quote east and west line drawn through the
southerly bend or extreme of Lake Michigan until it intersected
with Lake Erie. However, they did a bad job. They
(06:53):
did a piss poor job, because the problem is that
the maps they had were wrong. La Michigan southern tip
on the map, one of the best maps at the
time that they used, which was called the Mitchell Map.
You can look it up today. The Lake Michigan that
was on the map was actually several miles north of
(07:15):
where it where it is in the world or on
the planet. And so Congress got it wrong and they
didn't know it. Congress did what I know, I know,
I thought they were infallible. It was the one time, uh,
Congress got it wrong, and they didn't know that they
got it wrong until eighteen o two years and years later.
(07:38):
And it was because of a fur trapper who said, hey, guys,
actually got the line wrong. That's gonna come back to
bite you in the future. Listen to me. I'm I'm
a trapper. Professionally, I'm telling you you guys are trapping yourselves. Uh.
And how did they react, Well, we know it wasn't resolved. Well,
first of all, I got I got a backtrack slightly.
Let me ask you, guys, did this fur trapper with
(07:58):
you know, just just waltz into Congress and announce these findings.
Say hey, hey, you guys, it's me Raoul the fur trapper.
I got something to tell you or was he employed
by them? Was he sent to what's the word survey
the land? Because the surveyors come in a little later.
Sorry if I'm getting caught up in semantics here, I
(08:19):
just can't picture Raoul with the fur Trapper just waltzing
into Connor and saying, listen here, this is gonna be
a real problem. He did. I like the name Raoul,
and we we don't have the exact name for this guy. Uh.
Apparently delegates from the Ohio Constitutional Convention received reports from him,
so he did not stroll into the halls of federal
(08:41):
I see he had a correspondence going on with him.
He was some in some form, their representative, and he
had a lot He had a lot of stuff going
on already, show what I mean. He can't watch every
falling sparrow or border dispute. But uh, you said, you
said there were There was another important thing happening here,
which is that these territories, these areas around the lakes
(09:03):
were not states. Ohio finally became a state in what
eighteen o three, and so Ohio said when it became
a state, its specified something about this border in its constitution.
So the fur Trapper says the line actually falls south
of the Maumi River, and Ohio says, we own the
(09:25):
land around this no matter what future surveys show. And
then the Michigan Territory is formed and the government of
the Michigan Territory says, hey, hey, hey, hey, Ohio, watch yourself,
because that Mitchell map is wrong. We have newer, better maps,
and they show that this region is ours. This is
(09:48):
Michigan Territory, so step off. So things only got worse,
um because in the eighteen tens they sent a pair
of land surveyors. Uh actually I guess, one from each side. Yeah, um,
one from each side, and of course they came to
two different conclusions yeah yeah, about the location of where
(10:10):
this border would be. And that's when this strip became
a thing. This uh, this Gaza strip esque um area
of land, a four hundred and sixty eight square miles
slice known as the Toledo Strip um that was officially
being claimed very aggressively actually, as it would turn out,
by both Ohio and what was then called the Michigan Territory.
(10:40):
So okay, sure, maps get things wrong. People are fallible.
Can't they just sit down together and work it out? Well,
they could if it were an arbitrary mistake. The problem
is they both have skin in the game. They both
have a horse in the race. They both want a
badger in the bag here because they wanted to control
(11:03):
this area that it would later become Toledo and the
river you see, by the completion of the Erie Canal
linked the Great Lakes to the east coast on the
area that one. It's a song kind of like in
the company store. We're trying to ground it and like,
you know, yeah, and folks, folks, folks songs. Exactly. No,
(11:28):
this is very, very very valuable position to hold in
terms of trade, right, yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right. So
Toledo at this point is a growing village. It's the
largest port on Lake Erie's western side, and that means
it could be a financial windfall. So of course both
(11:49):
Michigan and Ohio want to tighten their grip on it.
And just like uh, just like the border disputes we
see in more recent years, they try a number of
things right to legitimize their claim, both in the eyes
of the people living there and in terms of just
(12:09):
pure infrastructure. So the Michigan Territory, because still not a
state yet, is constructing roads, it's sending people on purpose
to live there to sort of take over the land.
It's holding election, it's collecting taxes. Really put in the
cart before the old horse. There isn't yeah like a
boots like sounds colexing that claim, right, It is not
(12:31):
an ethical way to gain territory. It is an unfortunately
common way that human beings have done this in the past.
In the modern day, just say like, let's if we
send enough of quote unquote our people to a place
that we don't own and have them live there, but
eventually it's ours. It just isn't the moon. You know.
This isn't like a far removed location. This isn't a
(12:53):
colony that is completely disconnected from day to day life.
This is a very small strip of land right between
these two places where presumably human beings live. Um. And
it became very evident that both sides wanted to protect
their claim uh physically if necessary. Right right in Ohio.
(13:14):
Ohio tries a different strategy. They're doing some of the
same things the Michigan territory is, but Ohio is already
a state, so they have a pretty pretty significant advantage.
They go to Washington like that fur trapper who never
made it. Yeah. Right, Well, uh so they go to
the halls of federal power and they say, look, a
(13:36):
deal is a deal, is a deal. When we became
a state, we put this in our instruction manual or
their constitution. Rather, you guys screwed up. You guys screwed up.
That's not on us. Toledo is and will always be
a part of Ohio as God intended it. In fact,
in the early eighteen thirties, UH members of Congress from
(13:59):
Ohio blocked a Michigan petition for statehood and tried to
tried to hold the uh Toledo strip, which they called
it hostage, and they said, look, you can't be a state.
They didn't say, give up Toledo. They said, unless you
admit that Toledo is ours. I mean, if we're being honest, here,
(14:19):
pretty scrappy of non state Michigan. Here the way they're
flexing on this claim, knowing that they themselves don't even
have statehood yet. And then they're poking the bear in
more ways than one, right, Yeah, exactly. In eighteen thirty three,
the US becomes divided on the issue. The entirety of
(14:40):
Congress so the Senate says, Okay, we're team Ohio. We
side with Ohio. But the House of Representatives says, well, well,
like we're not just gonna go along with you guys.
And then people say, Stevens Mason. That's his name, Stevens,
that's Stevens. We're gonna get into some other really amazing
name in this story later, but yeah, Stevens Mason. Yeah,
(15:03):
he's governor of the Michigan Territory again still not a state.
And he says, hey, look, let's get a commission together
to try to work this out. I think it's so funny.
Stevens Mason. It should be flipped. It should be Mason Stevens.
It's the last name, first name, first name, last name,
vibe that he's more than one sees. I have a
I have a good friend whose name is James. He's
(15:25):
just like what one James. Well, that was the name
of Buffalo Bill in the Sounds of the Lambs movie.
His name was Jamee Gum and that right casey Goodbye Horses.
Oh I thought it was James. It was Jamee. Oh weird.
I just rewatched the chase scene from that. I just
rewatched the scene, not the mirror see. Of course, the
(15:52):
mirror cy that's the most iconic moment from that movie.
That's the one part everyone remembers. Goodbye Horses and the
mirror scene. I remember the lotion of the skin part.
That's also a good one. Uh. Anthony Hopkins is only
in that movie like fourteen or fifteen minutes. He's he's
a he's a. I mean, but it's it's a very
powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes. It's true speaking, powerful, powerful
(16:13):
fourteen or fifteen minutes. We have to wonder how long
Governor Robert Lucas of Ohio took to evaluate Mason's appeal.
Not that long. He pretty much instantly refused it. He said,
we do not negotiate. And then he said furthermore, in
eighteen thirty five, this is when everything started to go
really off the rails. He said, we're going to form
(16:36):
our own county on the Toledo Strips. Now, don't call
it the Toledo strip now it's Lucas County, Ohio. Yeah.
And then um, Michigan flexes back against against Ohio, UM
against the Lucas um and and and and acts this
series of laws called the Pains and Penalties Act. And
that's in February eighteen five, a law that said anyone
(16:59):
found hanging in said strip that supported Ohio could be
sent to jail for up to five years and find
a grand which at the time would have been equivalent
to about twenty dollars. So Mason gets a thousand men
a militia um and stations them right inside of this area.
And then Lucas, uh, you know, maybe having access to
(17:20):
fewer men, are thinking that there wasn't that big a
deal because they, you know, we're big old state boys. Um.
Since six hundred men. Just to make sure that there
wasn't some sort of like out and out blood bath.
This is looking bad. Oh. Also we should mention, uh,
the governor of the not quite a state Michigan Territory,
Stevens Mason. He is twenty three years old. They call
(17:42):
him the Boy King or something like that, the boy Governor. Okay, yeah, yeah,
So so now we have military forces moving in and
this weird hearts and minds law supporting this state of Ohio.
What does that mean? That can mean anything from being
an official of the county they proposed Lucas County to say, hey,
(18:06):
I live in Toledo and I'm in Ohio. And and and
also it's got that very kind of like gestapo e
kind of idea of like what if you're just caught
pounding around with somebody from the other side. You know,
what if someone names names and you're one of the names,
what gets named? Next thing? You know, you're sitting in
the clink for five years and you're you know, a
(18:26):
thousand dollars in debt which would be incredibly difficult to
pay off. So the federal government tries to get these
people to get along despite the fact they're already active
militias in the area. So on April ninety five, a
posse led by a sheriff from Michigan rode into Toledo
(18:48):
and they did just what they were talking about. They
arrested several state officials from Ohio, and then newspapers, who
you imagine have to have loved the headline potential here.
Uh newspapers said that in Ohio flag was torn down,
dragged through the streets, and burned. People are p oed.
Really a lawless zone here, you know, because no one
(19:11):
knows who's in charge, so everyone's kind of in charge,
or it's kind of mean, it really is like a
Wild West situation, but just in this little strip. Um.
So it escalates my friend and involves another sheriff from Michigan,
this time a man named Joseph Wood, who attempts to
enforce this pain and Penalties act by arresting Major Benjamin
(19:35):
Stickney loving that name because he voted in an Ohio election. Um,
and this is fantastic. Stickney's sons who are named one
Stickney and to Stickney. Like the numbers O n E
t w O. Yeah, they join in with their pops
uh Stickney sr um and they resist being arrested, and
(20:00):
they they stab sheriff would with a pocket knife, but
not fatally. No, it's a it's a it's a but
a flesh wound. Really right, tis only a scratch this
but a scratch. Uh funny story. I've got a I
had a great aunt whose name was nine. Really, that's
pretty cool. I like the idea of numbers for names.
(20:22):
Me too, I met I met a dude name seven,
and he was so cool. He was not related to me.
I only have one number name in my family. I
like the name four. Like the name four. Give about
six six? A character on Blossom uh there's six Smith
in uh cloud Atlas. Okay, I haven't seen that. Yeah,
(20:42):
I don't know. I'm partially for some reason, I'm partial
to odd numbers for names. This has nothing to do
with Michigan, Ohio's Toledo War. What do you think is
a great number for a name? There was a character
name six on Blossom and he was six Lemure played
by Whoa jenne von Oi another These are great names? Um, yeah,
(21:03):
I would go with a I would go with a
nine or maybe a three. Yeah, we go with the
name three. Casey, do you have a number that you
you think would make a good name. I knew you
were gonna. Okay, Casey on the case. He's thought about it, folks.
He thought about this a lot. So this is the
(21:25):
first violent physical altercation when the Michigan Sheriff Joseph Wood
and Benjamin Stickney and co. Get beefed up, and now
Sheriff would is remembered as the one injury casualty in
the Toledo War. So the Ohio Governor Lucas announced his
(21:49):
intentions to old a court session in Toledo. So they
were gonna hold a session in a court of law,
said like a hearing kind of, right, yeah, kind of
like a kangaroo court. It's not like he's gonna have
a stunning plot twist. Kinkaroo coords just seems so cute
and fun to me, the idea, but they're not at all. No,
they're they're very uh railroad e and sort of a
(22:10):
mockery of justice, right right? Uh? Do you know where
that comes from? A lot of people think it comes
from Australia, predictably only because the only not not just
a stereotype because of kangaroo's I would have thought it
maybe came from the fact that it was a penal
colony and maybe you know, it was the idea of
giving someone not a fair trial and throwing them onto
(22:32):
a penal colony. Is that not true? It's it's not true,
which is weird because it's it's something I believe for
years to The first published instance of the term kangaroo
court comes from nine or eighteen fifty three rather, and
it may have been popularized during the California gold Rush
because a lot of Australians went to the California gold
(22:53):
Rush and then they would have, you know, accusations of
claim jumping, so claim jumping and hastily proceeding through the
legal system, perhaps by leaps and bounds like a kangaroo.
I'm like, yeah, they leap and bound right, so they
would jump over or ignore evidence that would be in
(23:16):
favor of the defendant. But people don't really know. That's
just another theory. I think the most widely believed one
is the penal colony. But apparently that's the timing doesn't
work out. Ben, I just went down a bit of
a mini internet rabbit hole when I was looking into
the origins of kangaroo courts, and I discovered that in Germany,
the Third Reich would hold their versions of kangaroo courts,
and you know what they were called, Ben, what were
(23:37):
they called? They were called the People's Court. But not
with Judge Wappner. I think I've seen this show. Yeah,
you know what show I miss as well. I watched
I listened to the I listened to the intro theme
song for it all the time. Night Court. I'll probably
never actually watch Night Court. It probably hasn't aged well
since Dan Fielding is pretty much in uh Sexual Predator. Yeah,
(24:02):
but but that intro music is so great. I wish
we could play it anyhow, so he has this kind
of fake court set up to supposedly legitimize Ohio's claim
is this is the Governor Lucas of Ohio and the
boy governor Steven's Mason's here's about this, And he marches
(24:23):
twelve hundred militiamen called Wolverines onto the Toledo Strip and
they are prepared the Michiganders to use violent force to
stop this court session from taking place. They get there
on September seven of eighteen thirty five, and then they
find out they have been outsmarted. It's true because the
(24:46):
Ohioans had already done these court proceedings in secret at
the witching hour towards a midnight court session um and
then just booked it out of there because they didn't
want to get slaughtered, right right. So, according to history
dot com, the court incident marked the last gasp of
(25:09):
armed hostilities in the Toledo War. Uncle Sam's representatives say, hey, Ohio, Michigan,
why don't you guys jointly governed the territory until Congress
can make a permanent decision on the issue. Ohio says,
all right, cool, dope, let's do that. But at the
same time. While they said that was okay, they authorized
(25:30):
three hundred thousand dollars to the Ohio militia to seize
the territory if Michigan said no. And Michigan said no,
so the Ohio militia moved to the south bank of
the river and faced off with Michigan's military on the
north side. And then the president had had enough. Andrew Jackson,
(25:53):
president at the time, said this is bonkers. This is bananas,
this is malarkey. I am removed, moving slash firing the boy. Governor.
How do you do that? That's that's a bit of
a of a legal reach, isn't it? Just to say
I unequivocally, as the president remove you from your duly
elected office. Didn't seem like that would go over very well.
(26:15):
And then installing install my guy, right, that's right. It
does seem like an overreach of power, you know, But
that's what happened. And Mason was replaced by fellow named
John Horner. John Horner, I don't know if we would
say completely mended the offences, but he worked with the
Ohio governor to reach a okay conclusion to the dispute,
(26:39):
and Ohio was happy. The people of Michigan were not.
They hated this guy, They despised him. They would see
him in the street and verbally abuse him. They hanged
effigies of him on multiple occasions, and they immediately voted Stevens. Mason,
(27:00):
the boy Governor, back into office. So this debate raged on,
and a lot of it focused on Michigan's, you know,
ongoing plea to be made a state, and that that
was really the deciding factor here because on December fourteenth,
eighty six, Michigan did eventually accept a congressional compromise and
(27:24):
they said, okay, we will give up the Toledo Strip
if we are admitted to the Union as the twenty
sixth state. And with that, Toledo became part of the
state of Ohio. Michigan didn't just give that up for statehood.
They also got some land right in the Upper Peninsula. Yeah,
(27:46):
it's between Lake Michigan and Lake superior Um. The thing is,
though the Michigans weren't super thrilled about this. They thought
it was kind of a raw deal um because the
Detroit Free Press of the time had categorized this Upper
an insular area as a barren waste land of perpetual snows.
But you know, as history has a tendency to do
(28:08):
kind of soften things a little bit when they discovered
some precious, mindable materials in the form of copper and
iron ore. So it turned out to be not not
a bad not a bad trade, not a complete wash.
And there we have at folks. The Toledo War, nowadays
is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio Michigan history,
(28:29):
even worse than the uh college football rivalries. But this
was not the last time the states clash over their borders.
These folks have legitimate boundary issues. The precise location of
their land boundary was still a constant subject of contention
argument until nineteen fifteen. They had to have a new
(28:50):
government survey, and the governors celebrated the resolution by shaking
hands across the border. See and nineteen sixty the lieutenant
governors repeated the ceremony. That's nice, like many hands across
America think hey, and here will come full circle. Uh.
You know. There were occasional legal battles between the states
(29:13):
up until nine seventy three, when a Supreme Court ruling
resolved any claims to the waters of Lake Erie now, um,
those tensions that historical tensions are pretty much dealt with
in in those college football rivalries we talked about at
the top of the show, the Toledo War. There you
(29:34):
have it. So this ends today's episode, but not our show.
We would love to hear some of your favorite stories
of state rivalries in the US or uh, you know,
country rivalries, county province rivalries anywhere throughout the world, because,
as we know, at least here in the States, it's
(29:55):
a huge ongoing issue and every state has at least
one other state that they despise for one reason or another.
You can let us know on our email. We are
ridiculous at I heart radio dot com. You can find
us on Instagram, and you can find us the most
importantly your fellow listeners on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians. Yeah,
(30:17):
and you can check us out individually on Instagram if
you like, um follow our various exploits. I am at
embryonic insider. I am at Ben Bowling with a lot
of stuff on there that's probably gonna ruin my political
ambitions later in life. Oh surely not, Ben, surely not.
You're just a full human person, very rich life experiences,
(30:38):
that's that's very kind. I, like many people do, try
to emulate Casey Pegram Oh speaking of that guy, Hey, Casey,
thanks so much for, as always saving the show. We'd
also like to thank Gabe, our research associate. I would
like to think Alex Williams who composed our theme, Christopher
Haciots who is here in spirit, and Jonathan Strict on
the quister and as usual, Ben Bolan, thanks to you
(31:00):
for being a friend, and all the other lyrics of
the Golden Girl theme that I will never never remember.
Why don't you ever remember? It's a great song. You
said it wasn't that greatest song, and it's the full
song is not great, but the TV version, just for
the intro is spot on. It's pretty heartwarming, especially when
paired with the you know, cliffs of these women and
their antics. It really does warm the cockles. And I'm
(31:22):
gonna say this even though it's late, we probably should
have said it earlier. Uh, you know it's here in
the US. Mother's Day happened this weekend, and I just
want to say thanks to all the moms listening. Yes,
thanks to everyone with a mom. Uh and and you know,
if you didn't get a chance you didn't get a
(31:44):
chance to call her. This is maybe a week a
week late now that you're hearing this, But if you
didn't get a chance to say hello, just just give
her a ring, drop by and see her. Um, we
both hung out, well, all three of us hung out
with our moms recently and had a heck of a time. No,
my mom even almost came to my improv show, which
(32:06):
was it was a weird flex man. I would have
come to your improv show as well if I wasn't
already entertaining my mom and daughter. Uh, you know, in
my daughter's ten I don't think um, the improv stuff
you guys would have done would have been quite inappropriate.
Hear for very soon when she's I'm gonna say thirteen
and she can go to her first improv show. Okay,
all of us listening now we've ever done improv, know
that it can be. It can be tiresome to continually
(32:28):
invite your friends to improv. So never feel, you know,
we improvise enough together on the show. Will never feel
obligated or anything other than invited to that kind of
that kind of outside of workstick, you know what I mean.
I do indeed, We'll see you next time, folks. For
(32:50):
more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. AH
(00:27):
State Rivalries. One of my favorite things about traveling around
this fair nation of ours is that regardless of what
state you find yourself in, you can find another state
that most of the people in that state hate. So
if you go to Alabama, you'll find a lot of
people who hate Georgia. If you go to Georgia, you'll
find a lot of people who hate Alabama. Hi. My
(00:49):
name is Ben, Hi, my name is Nolan. I was
just recently in or again driving around in a rental
car with California plates, and I was I was counseled
that I better tread lie because that's not a good look.
And people from Oregon do not cotton to those city
slickers from California crossing over into their fair state. And
here's the problem. The car was in It was a
(01:10):
big giant SUV, so a real hog of the road,
and it had a tear trigger horn, so I was
constantly accidentally honking at people in traffic and getting some
pretty nasty looks. Well, listeners, super producer Casey Pegram, and
I can assure you that that Noel is a responsible driver,
(01:30):
and you don't just lay on your horn. You know,
it's tough when you're driving a rental car and you're right,
you're right about California. A lot of people have been
moving to Oregon, especially the western part of the state
by the coast. And when I had spent time in Portland's, uh,
that's one thing everybody got behind. They were like, all
these Californians, California coming in here, taking over our state.
(01:53):
Stay on the four oh five. So so today's story
is a story about state rivalry. But it's not about
that kind of you know, funny. Let's tell one liner,
Joe sort of rivalry. Um, what do we mean by
one liner joke? I'll tell an example that makes fun
(02:14):
of Georgia. Since this is our state, of course, we
don't want to offend anybody. So so let's say you're
in Alabama, you're in Florida, and someone says, hey, did
you hear about that hurricane that hits Savannah? And they
say no, what happened? They said, well, it did like
millions of dollars worth of improvements. That's a that's a
joke that you hear thrown around a lot. Savannah is
(02:36):
a beautiful lot of city, though, Ben who would say
that about Savanna. Who would say that, I don't know jerks,
who are these monsters? Well, they're jokes. Savannah is a
town with a lot of histories to get a weird vibe.
And there's a like a nuclear weapon lost off the
coast there. Did you know that? I didn't, but I
know there's a lot of ghosts there. Yes. Yeah, it
goes on those ghost deep port towns like in New Orleans,
(02:56):
and it's oh man, yeah, we should we should go
down there. We should go down there on a ridiculous
history field trip. We could do a ghost tour. We
could do a ghost tour. I think I think it's
in the budget. What do you say, let's do in
case here you down for a ghost tour. I'd love
to do that. Yeah, Savers going to Hawaii, they can
at least send us to Savannah for a ghost tour.
That really uh Savers and Food Lifestyle and travel show.
(03:18):
It's also involves food science. Do check it out if
you're did a chance to your friends Lauren Voge, Obama
and any Reese who are going to why that is true?
I asked them to bring back some spam for me.
We'll see, you know, they sell spam here in the States. Yeah,
but it's different. There are more flavors in Hawaii. Okay,
did you specifically ask for a flavor? Just say give
me get weird with it. Say give me one that
(03:39):
I can't get in the States. It's sort of like
all those different flavors of kit cats that you can
only get in Japan. Yeah. I have a bag of those.
If I desk really like the green tea ones green
tea is good. I get hip to banana. Um. Also,
Hawaii is, I think, per capita, the world's largest consumer
of spam. Remember when we did an episode on spam
with any from Saver and we talked about how they
(03:59):
have to keep it under lock and key because it's
such a nonperishable item that they can just flip it
out of their trunks once they, you know, do a
big spam heist. Yeah. I used to have spam in
my go bag. But the weight ratio is anyway. Anyway, anyway,
State rivals right, that's um state rivalries. Today's episode is
about a state rivalry. It is about the fair states
(04:22):
of Ohio and Michigan, who nowadays nol neither of us
are are big football fanatics. Football football. Yes, American football fanatics. Yeah,
neither of us are are huge American football fanatics, nowhere
near as insane and rabid about it as Casey Pegram is. Uh.
(04:43):
But even we know that Michigan and Ohio are famous
for how much their college football teams hate each other
because it says it right here on this out line. Yeah,
that's how you and I know that. But it's true.
And who knows. I mean, perhaps the rivalry in in
in question today has had historical hold on the relationship
between these two states and his you know, I would
(05:05):
say a football rivalry or a little healthy josh and
around between you know, rough and tumble footballers is a
lot healthier and safer than what has been described as
the Toledo War, a clash between Ohioans. And I'm gonna
go with my favorite Michiganders because in our research material
(05:26):
sometimes it says Michiganians and sometimes I yeah, right right
in any Michigan folk, let us know what you one
do you prefer um. But this conflict took place in
eighteen thirty five, and it had to do with the
fact that both Ohio, which was a state at the time,
and Michigan which was not yet a state at the time.
(05:48):
Both thought they owned this little strip of land. It's
almost like a gaza strip kind of situation between two
warring nations, uh, only this case it's you know, there's
their states and a state and a not quite yet state, um,
and there's this little strip of land between them that
each of them feel like they have a claim to,
right right. This was a long time in coming, and
(06:09):
it's a uh. It's based on a series of misunderstandings.
First of all, I love the name Toledo War. It
sounds like it's the name of an album. In the
US Congress drafted what they called the Northwest Ordinance, and
the Northwest Ordinance said that two hundred and sixty thousand
(06:30):
square miles of territory around the Great Lakes would be
carved into a handful of states. The law also said
that the border between Ohio and Michigan was to run
on a quote east and west line drawn through the
southerly bend or extreme of Lake Michigan until it intersected
with Lake Erie. However, they did a bad job. They
(06:53):
did a piss poor job, because the problem is that
the maps they had were wrong. La Michigan southern tip
on the map, one of the best maps at the
time that they used, which was called the Mitchell Map.
You can look it up today. The Lake Michigan that
was on the map was actually several miles north of
(07:15):
where it where it is in the world or on
the planet. And so Congress got it wrong and they
didn't know it. Congress did what I know, I know,
I thought they were infallible. It was the one time, uh,
Congress got it wrong, and they didn't know that they
got it wrong until eighteen o two years and years later.
(07:38):
And it was because of a fur trapper who said, hey, guys,
actually got the line wrong. That's gonna come back to
bite you in the future. Listen to me. I'm I'm
a trapper. Professionally, I'm telling you you guys are trapping yourselves. Uh.
And how did they react, Well, we know it wasn't resolved. Well,
first of all, I got I got a backtrack slightly.
Let me ask you, guys, did this fur trapper with
(07:58):
you know, just just waltz into Congress and announce these findings.
Say hey, hey, you guys, it's me Raoul the fur trapper.
I got something to tell you or was he employed
by them? Was he sent to what's the word survey
the land? Because the surveyors come in a little later.
Sorry if I'm getting caught up in semantics here, I
(08:19):
just can't picture Raoul with the fur Trapper just waltzing
into Connor and saying, listen here, this is gonna be
a real problem. He did. I like the name Raoul,
and we we don't have the exact name for this guy. Uh.
Apparently delegates from the Ohio Constitutional Convention received reports from him,
so he did not stroll into the halls of federal
(08:41):
I see he had a correspondence going on with him.
He was some in some form, their representative, and he
had a lot He had a lot of stuff going
on already, show what I mean. He can't watch every
falling sparrow or border dispute. But uh, you said, you
said there were There was another important thing happening here,
which is that these territories, these areas around the lakes
(09:03):
were not states. Ohio finally became a state in what
eighteen o three, and so Ohio said when it became
a state, its specified something about this border in its constitution.
So the fur Trapper says the line actually falls south
of the Maumi River, and Ohio says, we own the
(09:25):
land around this no matter what future surveys show. And
then the Michigan Territory is formed and the government of
the Michigan Territory says, hey, hey, hey, hey, Ohio, watch yourself,
because that Mitchell map is wrong. We have newer, better maps,
and they show that this region is ours. This is
(09:48):
Michigan Territory, so step off. So things only got worse,
um because in the eighteen tens they sent a pair
of land surveyors. Uh actually I guess, one from each side. Yeah, um,
one from each side, and of course they came to
two different conclusions yeah yeah, about the location of where
(10:10):
this border would be. And that's when this strip became
a thing. This uh, this Gaza strip esque um area
of land, a four hundred and sixty eight square miles
slice known as the Toledo Strip um that was officially
being claimed very aggressively actually, as it would turn out,
by both Ohio and what was then called the Michigan Territory.
(10:40):
So okay, sure, maps get things wrong. People are fallible.
Can't they just sit down together and work it out? Well,
they could if it were an arbitrary mistake. The problem
is they both have skin in the game. They both
have a horse in the race. They both want a
badger in the bag here because they wanted to control
(11:03):
this area that it would later become Toledo and the
river you see, by the completion of the Erie Canal
linked the Great Lakes to the east coast on the
area that one. It's a song kind of like in
the company store. We're trying to ground it and like,
you know, yeah, and folks, folks, folks songs. Exactly. No,
(11:28):
this is very, very very valuable position to hold in
terms of trade, right, yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right. So
Toledo at this point is a growing village. It's the
largest port on Lake Erie's western side, and that means
it could be a financial windfall. So of course both
(11:49):
Michigan and Ohio want to tighten their grip on it.
And just like uh, just like the border disputes we
see in more recent years, they try a number of
things right to legitimize their claim, both in the eyes
of the people living there and in terms of just
(12:09):
pure infrastructure. So the Michigan Territory, because still not a
state yet, is constructing roads, it's sending people on purpose
to live there to sort of take over the land.
It's holding election, it's collecting taxes. Really put in the
cart before the old horse. There isn't yeah like a
boots like sounds colexing that claim, right, It is not
(12:31):
an ethical way to gain territory. It is an unfortunately
common way that human beings have done this in the past.
In the modern day, just say like, let's if we
send enough of quote unquote our people to a place
that we don't own and have them live there, but
eventually it's ours. It just isn't the moon. You know.
This isn't like a far removed location. This isn't a
(12:53):
colony that is completely disconnected from day to day life.
This is a very small strip of land right between
these two places where presumably human beings live. Um. And
it became very evident that both sides wanted to protect
their claim uh physically if necessary. Right right in Ohio.
(13:14):
Ohio tries a different strategy. They're doing some of the
same things the Michigan territory is, but Ohio is already
a state, so they have a pretty pretty significant advantage.
They go to Washington like that fur trapper who never
made it. Yeah. Right, Well, uh so they go to
the halls of federal power and they say, look, a
(13:36):
deal is a deal, is a deal. When we became
a state, we put this in our instruction manual or
their constitution. Rather, you guys screwed up. You guys screwed up.
That's not on us. Toledo is and will always be
a part of Ohio as God intended it. In fact,
in the early eighteen thirties, UH members of Congress from
(13:59):
Ohio blocked a Michigan petition for statehood and tried to
tried to hold the uh Toledo strip, which they called
it hostage, and they said, look, you can't be a state.
They didn't say, give up Toledo. They said, unless you
admit that Toledo is ours. I mean, if we're being honest, here,
(14:19):
pretty scrappy of non state Michigan. Here the way they're
flexing on this claim, knowing that they themselves don't even
have statehood yet. And then they're poking the bear in
more ways than one, right, Yeah, exactly. In eighteen thirty three,
the US becomes divided on the issue. The entirety of
(14:40):
Congress so the Senate says, Okay, we're team Ohio. We
side with Ohio. But the House of Representatives says, well, well,
like we're not just gonna go along with you guys.
And then people say, Stevens Mason. That's his name, Stevens,
that's Stevens. We're gonna get into some other really amazing
name in this story later, but yeah, Stevens Mason. Yeah,
(15:03):
he's governor of the Michigan Territory again still not a state.
And he says, hey, look, let's get a commission together
to try to work this out. I think it's so funny.
Stevens Mason. It should be flipped. It should be Mason Stevens.
It's the last name, first name, first name, last name,
vibe that he's more than one sees. I have a
I have a good friend whose name is James. He's
(15:25):
just like what one James. Well, that was the name
of Buffalo Bill in the Sounds of the Lambs movie.
His name was Jamee Gum and that right casey Goodbye Horses.
Oh I thought it was James. It was Jamee. Oh weird.
I just rewatched the chase scene from that. I just
rewatched the scene, not the mirror see. Of course, the
(15:52):
mirror cy that's the most iconic moment from that movie.
That's the one part everyone remembers. Goodbye Horses and the
mirror scene. I remember the lotion of the skin part.
That's also a good one. Uh. Anthony Hopkins is only
in that movie like fourteen or fifteen minutes. He's he's
a he's a. I mean, but it's it's a very
powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes. It's true speaking, powerful, powerful
(16:13):
fourteen or fifteen minutes. We have to wonder how long
Governor Robert Lucas of Ohio took to evaluate Mason's appeal.
Not that long. He pretty much instantly refused it. He said,
we do not negotiate. And then he said furthermore, in
eighteen thirty five, this is when everything started to go
really off the rails. He said, we're going to form
(16:36):
our own county on the Toledo Strips. Now, don't call
it the Toledo strip now it's Lucas County, Ohio. Yeah.
And then um, Michigan flexes back against against Ohio, UM
against the Lucas um and and and and acts this
series of laws called the Pains and Penalties Act. And
that's in February eighteen five, a law that said anyone
(16:59):
found hanging in said strip that supported Ohio could be
sent to jail for up to five years and find
a grand which at the time would have been equivalent
to about twenty dollars. So Mason gets a thousand men
a militia um and stations them right inside of this area.
And then Lucas, uh, you know, maybe having access to
(17:20):
fewer men, are thinking that there wasn't that big a
deal because they, you know, we're big old state boys. Um.
Since six hundred men. Just to make sure that there
wasn't some sort of like out and out blood bath.
This is looking bad. Oh. Also we should mention, uh,
the governor of the not quite a state Michigan Territory,
Stevens Mason. He is twenty three years old. They call
(17:42):
him the Boy King or something like that, the boy Governor. Okay, yeah, yeah,
So so now we have military forces moving in and
this weird hearts and minds law supporting this state of Ohio.
What does that mean? That can mean anything from being
an official of the county they proposed Lucas County to say, hey,
(18:06):
I live in Toledo and I'm in Ohio. And and and
also it's got that very kind of like gestapo e
kind of idea of like what if you're just caught
pounding around with somebody from the other side. You know,
what if someone names names and you're one of the names,
what gets named? Next thing? You know, you're sitting in
the clink for five years and you're you know, a
(18:26):
thousand dollars in debt which would be incredibly difficult to
pay off. So the federal government tries to get these
people to get along despite the fact they're already active
militias in the area. So on April ninety five, a
posse led by a sheriff from Michigan rode into Toledo
(18:48):
and they did just what they were talking about. They
arrested several state officials from Ohio, and then newspapers, who
you imagine have to have loved the headline potential here.
Uh newspapers said that in Ohio flag was torn down,
dragged through the streets, and burned. People are p oed.
Really a lawless zone here, you know, because no one
(19:11):
knows who's in charge, so everyone's kind of in charge,
or it's kind of mean, it really is like a
Wild West situation, but just in this little strip. Um.
So it escalates my friend and involves another sheriff from Michigan,
this time a man named Joseph Wood, who attempts to
enforce this pain and Penalties act by arresting Major Benjamin
(19:35):
Stickney loving that name because he voted in an Ohio election. Um,
and this is fantastic. Stickney's sons who are named one
Stickney and to Stickney. Like the numbers O n E
t w O. Yeah, they join in with their pops
uh Stickney sr um and they resist being arrested, and
(20:00):
they they stab sheriff would with a pocket knife, but
not fatally. No, it's a it's a it's a but
a flesh wound. Really right, tis only a scratch this
but a scratch. Uh funny story. I've got a I
had a great aunt whose name was nine. Really, that's
pretty cool. I like the idea of numbers for names.
(20:22):
Me too, I met I met a dude name seven,
and he was so cool. He was not related to me.
I only have one number name in my family. I
like the name four. Like the name four. Give about
six six? A character on Blossom uh there's six Smith
in uh cloud Atlas. Okay, I haven't seen that. Yeah,
(20:42):
I don't know. I'm partially for some reason, I'm partial
to odd numbers for names. This has nothing to do
with Michigan, Ohio's Toledo War. What do you think is
a great number for a name? There was a character
name six on Blossom and he was six Lemure played
by Whoa jenne von Oi another These are great names? Um, yeah,
(21:03):
I would go with a I would go with a
nine or maybe a three. Yeah, we go with the
name three. Casey, do you have a number that you
you think would make a good name. I knew you
were gonna. Okay, Casey on the case. He's thought about it, folks.
He thought about this a lot. So this is the
(21:25):
first violent physical altercation when the Michigan Sheriff Joseph Wood
and Benjamin Stickney and co. Get beefed up, and now
Sheriff would is remembered as the one injury casualty in
the Toledo War. So the Ohio Governor Lucas announced his
(21:49):
intentions to old a court session in Toledo. So they
were gonna hold a session in a court of law,
said like a hearing kind of, right, yeah, kind of
like a kangaroo court. It's not like he's gonna have
a stunning plot twist. Kinkaroo coords just seems so cute
and fun to me, the idea, but they're not at all. No,
they're they're very uh railroad e and sort of a
(22:10):
mockery of justice, right right? Uh? Do you know where
that comes from? A lot of people think it comes
from Australia, predictably only because the only not not just
a stereotype because of kangaroo's I would have thought it
maybe came from the fact that it was a penal
colony and maybe you know, it was the idea of
giving someone not a fair trial and throwing them onto
(22:32):
a penal colony. Is that not true? It's it's not true,
which is weird because it's it's something I believe for
years to The first published instance of the term kangaroo
court comes from nine or eighteen fifty three rather, and
it may have been popularized during the California gold Rush
because a lot of Australians went to the California gold
(22:53):
Rush and then they would have, you know, accusations of
claim jumping, so claim jumping and hastily proceeding through the
legal system, perhaps by leaps and bounds like a kangaroo.
I'm like, yeah, they leap and bound right, so they
would jump over or ignore evidence that would be in
(23:16):
favor of the defendant. But people don't really know. That's
just another theory. I think the most widely believed one
is the penal colony. But apparently that's the timing doesn't
work out. Ben, I just went down a bit of
a mini internet rabbit hole when I was looking into
the origins of kangaroo courts, and I discovered that in Germany,
the Third Reich would hold their versions of kangaroo courts,
and you know what they were called, Ben, what were
(23:37):
they called? They were called the People's Court. But not
with Judge Wappner. I think I've seen this show. Yeah,
you know what show I miss as well. I watched
I listened to the I listened to the intro theme
song for it all the time. Night Court. I'll probably
never actually watch Night Court. It probably hasn't aged well
since Dan Fielding is pretty much in uh Sexual Predator. Yeah,
(24:02):
but but that intro music is so great. I wish
we could play it anyhow, so he has this kind
of fake court set up to supposedly legitimize Ohio's claim
is this is the Governor Lucas of Ohio and the
boy governor Steven's Mason's here's about this, And he marches
(24:23):
twelve hundred militiamen called Wolverines onto the Toledo Strip and
they are prepared the Michiganders to use violent force to
stop this court session from taking place. They get there
on September seven of eighteen thirty five, and then they
find out they have been outsmarted. It's true because the
(24:46):
Ohioans had already done these court proceedings in secret at
the witching hour towards a midnight court session um and
then just booked it out of there because they didn't
want to get slaughtered, right right. So, according to history
dot com, the court incident marked the last gasp of
(25:09):
armed hostilities in the Toledo War. Uncle Sam's representatives say, hey, Ohio, Michigan,
why don't you guys jointly governed the territory until Congress
can make a permanent decision on the issue. Ohio says,
all right, cool, dope, let's do that. But at the
same time. While they said that was okay, they authorized
(25:30):
three hundred thousand dollars to the Ohio militia to seize
the territory if Michigan said no. And Michigan said no,
so the Ohio militia moved to the south bank of
the river and faced off with Michigan's military on the
north side. And then the president had had enough. Andrew Jackson,
(25:53):
president at the time, said this is bonkers. This is bananas,
this is malarkey. I am removed, moving slash firing the boy. Governor.
How do you do that? That's that's a bit of
a of a legal reach, isn't it? Just to say
I unequivocally, as the president remove you from your duly
elected office. Didn't seem like that would go over very well.
(26:15):
And then installing install my guy, right, that's right. It
does seem like an overreach of power, you know, But
that's what happened. And Mason was replaced by fellow named
John Horner. John Horner, I don't know if we would
say completely mended the offences, but he worked with the
Ohio governor to reach a okay conclusion to the dispute,
(26:39):
and Ohio was happy. The people of Michigan were not.
They hated this guy, They despised him. They would see
him in the street and verbally abuse him. They hanged
effigies of him on multiple occasions, and they immediately voted Stevens. Mason,
(27:00):
the boy Governor, back into office. So this debate raged on,
and a lot of it focused on Michigan's, you know,
ongoing plea to be made a state, and that that
was really the deciding factor here because on December fourteenth,
eighty six, Michigan did eventually accept a congressional compromise and
(27:24):
they said, okay, we will give up the Toledo Strip
if we are admitted to the Union as the twenty
sixth state. And with that, Toledo became part of the
state of Ohio. Michigan didn't just give that up for statehood.
They also got some land right in the Upper Peninsula. Yeah,
(27:46):
it's between Lake Michigan and Lake superior Um. The thing is,
though the Michigans weren't super thrilled about this. They thought
it was kind of a raw deal um because the
Detroit Free Press of the time had categorized this Upper
an insular area as a barren waste land of perpetual snows.
But you know, as history has a tendency to do
(28:08):
kind of soften things a little bit when they discovered
some precious, mindable materials in the form of copper and
iron ore. So it turned out to be not not
a bad not a bad trade, not a complete wash.
And there we have at folks. The Toledo War, nowadays
is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio Michigan history,
(28:29):
even worse than the uh college football rivalries. But this
was not the last time the states clash over their borders.
These folks have legitimate boundary issues. The precise location of
their land boundary was still a constant subject of contention
argument until nineteen fifteen. They had to have a new
(28:50):
government survey, and the governors celebrated the resolution by shaking
hands across the border. See and nineteen sixty the lieutenant
governors repeated the ceremony. That's nice, like many hands across
America think hey, and here will come full circle. Uh.
You know. There were occasional legal battles between the states
(29:13):
up until nine seventy three, when a Supreme Court ruling
resolved any claims to the waters of Lake Erie now, um,
those tensions that historical tensions are pretty much dealt with
in in those college football rivalries we talked about at
the top of the show, the Toledo War. There you
(29:34):
have it. So this ends today's episode, but not our show.
We would love to hear some of your favorite stories
of state rivalries in the US or uh, you know,
country rivalries, county province rivalries anywhere throughout the world, because,
as we know, at least here in the States, it's
(29:55):
a huge ongoing issue and every state has at least
one other state that they despise for one reason or another.
You can let us know on our email. We are
ridiculous at I heart radio dot com. You can find
us on Instagram, and you can find us the most
importantly your fellow listeners on our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians. Yeah,
(30:17):
and you can check us out individually on Instagram if
you like, um follow our various exploits. I am at
embryonic insider. I am at Ben Bowling with a lot
of stuff on there that's probably gonna ruin my political
ambitions later in life. Oh surely not, Ben, surely not.
You're just a full human person, very rich life experiences,
(30:38):
that's that's very kind. I, like many people do, try
to emulate Casey Pegram Oh speaking of that guy, Hey, Casey,
thanks so much for, as always saving the show. We'd
also like to thank Gabe, our research associate. I would
like to think Alex Williams who composed our theme, Christopher
Haciots who is here in spirit, and Jonathan Strict on
the quister and as usual, Ben Bolan, thanks to you
(31:00):
for being a friend, and all the other lyrics of
the Golden Girl theme that I will never never remember.
Why don't you ever remember? It's a great song. You
said it wasn't that greatest song, and it's the full
song is not great, but the TV version, just for
the intro is spot on. It's pretty heartwarming, especially when
paired with the you know, cliffs of these women and
their antics. It really does warm the cockles. And I'm
(31:22):
gonna say this even though it's late, we probably should
have said it earlier. Uh, you know it's here in
the US. Mother's Day happened this weekend, and I just
want to say thanks to all the moms listening. Yes,
thanks to everyone with a mom. Uh and and you know,
if you didn't get a chance you didn't get a
(31:44):
chance to call her. This is maybe a week a
week late now that you're hearing this, But if you
didn't get a chance to say hello, just just give
her a ring, drop by and see her. Um, we
both hung out, well, all three of us hung out
with our moms recently and had a heck of a time. No,
my mom even almost came to my improv show, which
(32:06):
was it was a weird flex man. I would have
come to your improv show as well if I wasn't
already entertaining my mom and daughter. Uh, you know, in
my daughter's ten I don't think um, the improv stuff
you guys would have done would have been quite inappropriate.
Hear for very soon when she's I'm gonna say thirteen
and she can go to her first improv show. Okay,
all of us listening now we've ever done improv, know
that it can be. It can be tiresome to continually
(32:28):
invite your friends to improv. So never feel, you know,
we improvise enough together on the show. Will never feel
obligated or anything other than invited to that kind of
that kind of outside of workstick, you know what I mean.
I do indeed, We'll see you next time, folks. For
(32:50):
more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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