August 1, 2024 • 32 mins
There's no way around it: James Smithson had a tough life. Yet his unhappiness may, in an indirect way, be the prime reason the Smithsonian Institute exists today. In part two of this special two-part episode, special guest Lizzie Peabody, the host of Sidedoor, delves into the story of how James Smithson donated a massive windfall to the United States -- and, at the same time, gave them an enormous mission. Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the
myth legend. Super producer, mister Max Williams. Who there it is,
I'm Big Bullet, You're Noel Brown, And we couldn't be
more excited about this incredibly cinematic and strange story we're
(00:48):
exploring with our guests today.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Oh man, it's such as it's a wild ride. There's scandal.
It's like an episode of Bridgerton.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So I hear.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I've never actually seen Bridgerton, but I hear it's I
heard sultry and vaguely historical. But this story, yeah, that's
a bus This story not as many butts, a little sultry.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Highly historical.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So let's go to our conversation with Lizzie Peabody, the
host and senior producer of the Smithsonians podcast Side Door.
It is a tragic thing, even though it occurred so
long ago, it's it's difficult to really understand that kind
(01:34):
of trauma. Right. You know your father is alive, you
know that society is looking upon you as an outcast,
similar to how your mother was treated when she was
when she was pregnant with you.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm sorry really quickly. The moment in the movie is
my father. He's alive. I never knew my father. I'm sorry,
carry on. So what happens next?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Oh me?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Oh right, I guess I am telling the story. I
was like, what does happen next? I'm on the edge
of my seat.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Cinema draw.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
No, Sean Connery does not get to be There's no
Scottish Sean Connery.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
He can do an American accent. Have you seen the
James Bond.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Film to do a British accent? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm just ragging on his sort of amorphous accent in
the James Bond movies. But no, what truly does happen next?
In the actual facts telling of this tale?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
So in the actual facts telling of this tale, the
Duke of Northumberland dies. James Macy graduates from Oxford. He
becomes a chemist and a mineralogist, and he's known as
a nomadic bachelor who loved to gamble. He publishes twenty
seven scientific papers. He becomes revered for his geologic study
(02:51):
of Scotland's fingles, cave and he's just like this passionate
He's just this passionate scientist guy who ambles around. There's
there's a note of some hotel owner find him for
like trekking a bunch of rocks and dirt in his
hotel room. He was always collecting stuff. He just like
a studying nature.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
He's a nomad for natural science.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I love the idea of a bad boy scientist, you know,
he flouting the rules, writing his scientific theories on the
back of cocktail napkins at the craps tables.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah kind of Yeah. And this was the age of Enlightenment,
so scientists were actually celebrities. He was. He was kind
of a rock star of the natural science world, and
he kind of sought solace in science. You know, the
laws of nature applied equally to everyone, and so he
had this chip on his shoulder. He's sort of the
(03:42):
way I figure he was thinking, you know, like if
I can't have a family legacy, I may as well
have one that's in science. And he really devoted himself
to that. When he was thirty five years old, his
mother died and he pretty much immediately changed his name
to the Duke's original last name of Smithson.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Ah, okay, so now maybe a lot of dickens. Enough
time has passed, yes, right, and he has been as
a as a man who has been quarreling with his
identity and his position for the entirety of his life.
He has this sort of crossroads and he makes the
(04:23):
decision to sort of redefine himself.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
He's taking it back, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, So he goes from being James Macy to being
James Smithson and on top of that hit so not
only is he making some great scientific discoveries, like he
discovered a new mineral Smithsonit.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh super humble to do with that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Yeah, well you know, now he had his name so briefly.
Now that he had his name, I think he had
to really make it count.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
He's going in, we say, Erica, I'm all with it.
I'm behind him.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Smith's to Night was actually important for brass production, and
this was like the beginning of the industrial revolution. So
he racked up a fortune. He's like making the big bucks.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So now he's a Tony Stark figure.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Yeah, or actually I don't know. Is that a Game
of Thrones reference?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's it's a comic book reference.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I'm you know.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I used to call Elon Musk the monte Tony Stark,
but they stopped.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Do you know, we're a kind of a Mark Zuckerberg
or Tom from MySpace, sort of sort of like the
Ted Talkie crowd aspiration of a maverick, wealthy, very smart person.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Also benevolence who has seen.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
His benevolent and pioneering That checks out. Okay, okay, so there,
there we are. Our pal James is at the top
of the world right on multiple levels here because as
you said, he has this covered, a mineral that is
powering part of the industrial revolution. Is that correct? Is
(06:07):
that overstaving the car?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I have no idea. I don't know enough about brass
production to say for sure.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Okay, we got to call our brass guy.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
We got to Yeah, let's get a fact check on that.
But I think it's sufficient to say, like it was
important enough, people wanted it, and it made him a
lot of money.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
There you go, there we go.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
All right, So now he is, despite the fact that
he has not inherited assent from his biological father, he
has made his own fortune.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Oh yes, you love to see it, you really do.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
There's science through the pursuit of knowledge, you know, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And he also was like kind of you know, shoved
aside for so long and denied his legacy and now
he's built one of his own, accord, and yet he
still did want that name, which I do think is interesting.
If it were me, I would have kept my name
and been like, screw you, dad, you know this is me.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I did this. I don't need you.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
But I understand the times were different, and there was
you know, there was sort of like an expectation or
it was his kind of again taking back that power
that had been taken from him.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah, so who knows exactly why I did it, but
I think that's a pretty good bet. Sorry, that was
like a very school army answer.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I don't know, I'm just speculated, but I do think
it's interesting that despite being kind of mistreated, he would
choose to you know, push forth that name, and that's
the name is everything in the story, right.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
I think it's also relevant that he changed it only
after his mother died and right after his brother died,
so it was probably out of respect for her feelings
that he didn't change it sooner, But he had been
lusting after that name his whole life probably, And.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Again, yeah, he had been there was definitely anticipation. He
had been waiting. And we also know to your excellent point,
was he that he from earlier that he is even
though he's very quite brilliant, right, quite a sharp guy,
he is a product of society that is very much
(08:02):
bloodline and lineage based. So now that's what I was
getting out, Like, yeah, he very much establishes that's right.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Right. So James Smithson was not going to make the
same mistake that his uncle lumly had made and die
without a will, So he writes his own will. He
could have afforded lawyers, but he does it himself. He's like,
I know what I want and this is it. And
there's two James. Yeah, so James's And there's two clauses
(08:28):
in particular that are a little unusual. The first is
that all of his money will go to his nephew,
and if his nephew dies, to his nephew's children, which
could be legitimate or illegitimate, so he does not distinguish
between the two. The second is that if his nephew
has no children, the money goes to the United States
(08:51):
of America. Okay, okay, and this is what he wrote.
This is my James Smithson voice.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Oh yeah, it's gonna sound like Sean Connery.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Sorry, sure, okay, let me try.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I bequeath the whole of my property to the United
States of America, to found in Washington under the name
of the Smithsonian Institution, an establishment for the increase and
diffusion of knowledge among men.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Here here who couldn't who wouldn't support that? That sounds
like an absolutely noble pursuit.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
And folks, let's hear it for the voice acting.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It was very well too.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
I didn't even attempt an accent.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I know my life, didn't overdo it. If they had
profit toss, I think it was. I would give it
eight out of ten.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Now we're talking like film producers, you know what?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Eight five eight point Wow?
Speaker 4 (09:46):
That sounds like great inflation. I think I am going
to accept the eight.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
But not there.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So with this, though, we see something that may sound
a bit unusual. We're arriving at the genesis, the origin story,
the evidence of the great Smithsonian as an institution. Lizzie,
why would he do this? I see like the order
(10:16):
of operations and scenarios, right, Nephew, nephew's kids. If no nephew,
if no children, then boom this whole country.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
The United States of America. Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, So
you know, he had never even been to the United States.
Boats made him seasick, so he had never even He
left all his money to this place he'd never even seen.
But according to our experts, he saw the United States
(10:47):
as the antithesis of the English society that had denied
him legitimacy his whole life. America claimed to be built
on democracy, you know, not aristocracy, and he was like,
that is a project I can get behind. You guys,
get my money.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Okay, And really there though sort of an unproven thing,
this democracy relatively.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Pretty new, but it is definitely a bold experiment.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I think he saw himself as like an early investor.
You know, he was like, I really, I really want
to support this project.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So, as we know, despite this what seems to be
a strange decision to the European society of the day,
as we know, they.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Also shunned him though right European society shunned him. He
was saying, you know what, you don't get a penny,
European society.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
This was as much against that society, as it was
for this society that he never actually visited.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
This was a big bleep you.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, there you get to the pre bleeps. I love it.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
No, that literally just went off like a rocket in
my head, like that is what he was doing. It
was the middle to the society that had rejected him.
He's almost like a he's both a superhero and a
super villain, depending on which side of the line.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
He's super committed to the bit, that's for sure. And
this so okay, now, now, Lizzie, perhaps we assume the
role of the people across the pond, right, is this
a gift horse in the mouth situation? I'm butchering that,
but you know the gift horse in the mouth? Is it?
(12:28):
How do people respond with this strange, innovative, nomadic scientist
who wants to give you a ton of money.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Well, nobody actually knows about it yet because he's still alive.
So the United States is like in the dark. So
he writes up this will and then sorry, we haven't
killed James Smiths and yet, so I just have to
do that briefly, okay, ahead, Yeah, So he writes up
his will and he's like, all right, dust off his hands.
I'm done with that. He moves to Genoa, Italy, Genoa.
(13:00):
I don't know Italy. Okay, Genoa, we'll go with that.
And at the age of sixty four, after an illness
we don't know a whole lot about, he died. This
was eighteen twenty nine, and so his nephew inherits his money,
as is the plan, and his nephew has no children,
and only six years later, his nephew dies with no children.
(13:23):
So at that point across the ocean, the baby government
of the United States of America learns to their surprise
that some dude they have never heard of has left
them a kaboodle of money, and they're just like, wait,
who and why and a British Man, we don't understand.
(13:43):
They're actually highly suspicious because you know, it's only fifty
two years before the US fought Britain for independence, and
then only twenty one years before was the War of
eighteen twelve when the British actually invaded Washington and set
it on fire, So that was pretty alive in the
memories of the people there.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right right. And then also, yeah, we can't blame the
the politicians of the day for being somewhat skeptical with
with this amount of money.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah, it was the equivalent of like today's I don't
catch about one hundred million dollars. Yeah, they were like,
what are the strings attached here?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
One hundred million?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You say, yes, okay, and this is to be like,
like the idea would be to establish this is there
an ongoing endowment or how does that.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Part of it work?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
No?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
I think it was just to get it started. It's like,
here's all my money, make something called the Smithsonian Institution
for the Increase in Diffusion of Knowledge. You guys figure it.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Out, which is other? Yeah, pretty pretty prof Yes. Yeah,
that's like when an executive producer walks in and says
something with something with aspiration, maybe a bird.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Yeah, it's gotta be work it out.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Gotta say though, before we get to the stunning conclusion
of this tale, clearly you guys took the ball and
ran with it because Smithsonian Institution kind of a big deal.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Seems to have done well by our boy here.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
You know, as the physical embodiment of the Smithsonian Institution.
I thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I wanted to hear your weigh in on this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So what how Yeah, how do they set about doing
this sort of vague like and how does one even
hold like judge the criteria of doing such a thing
with someone's money, Like are there boxes to tick?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Like?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
They could have just phoned it in, I guess, but
they clearly did not.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
The money moves, so I imagine one of the big
things was learning first that it is a real sum
and that changes the tenor of the conversation and being
that it was, being that it was and is us Congress.
I imagine there was a lot of back and forth
once they decided it was real.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Money shockingly had a hard time deciding what to do
with all this money. They It took them a little
while too a great so in eighteen thirty eight the
money was boxed up ship to the United States, so like, okay,
it's real here it is, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No wire transfer, yea literally cash money shipped through the mail.
This seems so terrifying when you think about it by
today's stand.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Yeah, and then it just sat there I don't know,
at the Treasury wherever it would have sat for over
a decade while Congress tried to figure out what to
do with it. It took over ten years. They were like
I don't know, okay, increase in diffusion of knowledge. Is
it a university, is it a laboratory, is it a
school for teachers? Is it a museum?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Knowledge is the most important in priority right right.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
So eventually they did decide and on August tenth, eighteen
forty eight, Congress pass legislation that created the Smithsonian Institution.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Lizee, that's the day before my birthday. Really awesome, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
You were born in eighteen forty six.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We're not doing questions for the.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
But that's funny.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But then myself and our co host on our other
podcast stuff that I want you to know all have
like August birthdays within days of one another.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Oh my gosh, it's a bunch of leos. It sounds
like not to bring astrology into the room.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
No, no, bring it. Some of some of that stuff
is painfully real.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Somebody in Congress was probably say, well, what's our take
on astrology? That's probably what James is focusing on. I
think the want to be. And then someone says, no,
what about math? And he's like, you are such a virgo?
What a budget.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Way to bring it back to the story. That was
a beautiful, beautiful segue.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
But as we know.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mean, the Smithsonian Institution encompasses numerous facets of all
of this stuff, and obviously they didn't happen overnight. But
I just think it's so cool. You got to start somewhere,
and that's why I think the story is so fascinating.
But you know what, what would the early day of
this institution have looked like or if.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
It felt like well, it was the oh gosh, I
should have done like this isn't aside, I should have
done more research. It was the first national museum to start,
so the Smithsonian was known as the National Museum in
the early days, and it was but it was mostly
built around scientific knowledge. The first Secretary of the Smithsonian
was known as the Nation's Chief Scientist. That was a
(18:27):
role that we had for many years. So it had
a heavy science focus. But there was a lot of
back and forth in the early days between secretaries and
the secretary is sort of like the chief of the Smithsonian,
about whether it was a research institution or a museum.
So there was a lot of push and pull, and
(18:48):
those early players had a lot of impact on shaping
the direction of the museum, and it was very It
was heated at times. That's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
You guys can get me back for that, so'd be thrilled.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But there is an epilogue because remember we left James
in Italy.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Right in Genoa.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Now in that building, right, that red castle with the crypt, right,
am I remembering correctly?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I remember it?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
So okay. So in nineteen oh three, this was seventy
four years after James Smithson died the city of Genoa
was doing some renovations and they were going to bulldoze
the cemetery where he was buried. So they were having
to kind of relocate all these bodies and they were
kind of calling next of kid and all that to
be like, hey, come get your people. And so by
(19:42):
this time, the Smithsonian Institution was well established and the castle,
you know, was standing proudly on the National Mall. And
someone from the cemetery calls and is like, hey, we've
got James Smithson. He's like important to you. We have
your guy. Do you want his body? And the Board
of Regents, which is sort of the governing board of Smithsonian,
(20:04):
they were like, no thanks, that sounds really inconvenient, like
we don't want a corpse. Thanks, but no thanks. So
they're just like no, except for one guy, Alexander Graham
Bell is like no, he will we not leave.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
James listen to be bulldozed, right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
The Alexander Graham Bell resumed a couple other things.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
He he did some work in hydrofoils. But he maybe.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Invented the mirror ball, a disco ball, Yeah, the smoking machine.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
He's the he's the guy. He's the creator of the casadia,
you know, and and also loosely associated with the telephone.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
That's right, but that's his least well known thing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, that's kind of a deep cut.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Who can compete with the disco ball. Once you've invented
the disco ball, everything else is down.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
He also invented that move with the one finger.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, he had a little zig zaggy you know, it
goes with the ball.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah. Why, I'm sorry it was him. He took this
upon himself.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
He felt strongly about this, and he's like, I'm gonna
go save our boy our boys remains.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Yeah. Well, he felt strongly because he, like James Smithson,
was a scientist and a philanthropist, and he felt a
connection to this guy. He felt like he'd done a
really great thing for the country and for science, and
he wanted to see his remains treated with respect. So
he was like, yeah, this is inconvenient and possibly expensive
and all that, but we owe it to James Smithson
(21:38):
to go get him. And he offered to pay himself
to go get his remains, and finally he got permission.
Off he went on a boat to Italy. I think
his wife went with him. I think it was like
just the two of them off on this mission.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
And a romantic invention.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yea remains, do a little sight seeing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It's also a long journey, so he was very serious
about yes, yeah, not convenience, not hop in a flight.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
In my like cinema of the mind moment here, it's
like they're standing at the rail of the ship, just
like squinting to see the shoreline of Italy, and they're
they're each holding like large trowels. They're just like, yes, yes, ready.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
They're ready to dig, ready from home.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
They're disenturing and they're oh my gosh, you know what
they're having that Indiana Jones moment. Alexander Graham Bell looks
at his spouse and like points off in their rison
and goes it belongs in a museum.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So they do disinter zoom. I guess this remains bring
them back to the castle.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Can't say if he did all the digging himself or what,
but I think there was permits and some bribery and
it was harder than they thought. But they did eventually
bring him back and and you know once I mean
Alexander Graham Bell did most of the heavy lifting. So
once he actually got back to DC, President Teddy Roosevelt
was like, okay, okay, Well, you know, the Navy greeted
the boat at the entrance to the harbor, and the
(23:07):
cavalry met them at the dock, and the casket was
loaded into a wagon and draped in flags American and
British flags, and the marine band played, and the whole
shebang went up to the castle and they like drop
off the casket in the castle and they're like, okay,
what do we do with it?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Oh, they don't have a place for it.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
It didn't really It's a long trip they could have
maybe figured.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Out had the time, though.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Is the thing, you know, I think it was one
of those things where you know, when like you know,
and your partners like, hey, I have this great idea
and you're like, I don't think that's a good idea
at all, but I don't think that you'll ever actually
do it, so I'm going to give you my full endorsement.
And then they come back and they're like, hey, I
did this great thing, and you're like, oh, man, I.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Got that tattoo we were talking about. Remember last night
you said that I was just drinking.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But here we are are Do you love it? You do?
Speaker 4 (24:03):
So the twist is that I am that partner in
this story. I'm the one with low executive functions. So
my husband is always like, sounds great. You do it,
knowing full well that I will never manage to do it,
but occasionally I do occasionally.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Okay, you have you ever, Lizzie, have you ever been
in a situation where you say, Darling, would you like
to go to Genoa and let's say we pick up
a body.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I haven't yet, but I have that one in my
back pocket.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It hasn't presented itself.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I haven't found the right body yet.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, if I may. They don't know what to do
with it, so they just kind of take the path
of least resistance here, right.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Right, So well, they first they do actually hold a contest.
They're like, Okay, we don't know what to do with it,
people of America, what should we do with this?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And people write it contayk goodness, the internet wasn't around.
Do you imagine named Ody mcbod fain right your suggestions?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Oh boy? Well, people had a real like high aspirations.
One of the one of the ideas was to build
something several times the size of the Washington Monument in
honor of Smithson, which would have been like it's like, yeah, yeah,
we have Washington and then even taller in the background,
we have James Smithson. But that didn't that didn't end
up happening. I think it was a budgeting issue. So
(25:23):
eventually what they did was they took the janitor's closet
right to the left of the main entrance and they
did a little light remodeling and they added a little
sign that says crypt and they put it in there.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
See in my theater of the mind, they just pasde like,
took a sticky note, stuck it over janitor and just
wrote crypt on it with a sharpie like that's just
what my mind immediately can't get rid of that.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Did they move the you know, like the mops, the
buckets busy or did they just did they just like
place them on the Let's give credit where credit is.
Surely they made it crypt like your museum, like if
it's hanging on the wall.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
You know, I can't really say what it looked like
in those early days. But since they have added, you know,
they Alexander Graham Bell also brought over the tombstone from Genoa.
So there's this like ten foot tall slab of marble
in there with his name on it, and there's some flags,
and there's some plaques now explaining like who he is
and and he himself is there at the very foot
(26:31):
of the of the monument, you know, James's remains are there.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I can see this, the remains of the James.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
The remains of the James.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, first stop, Okay, I hope you know now that
I am going to lean on you heavily for my
itinerary for when I do.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Do this this eventual can the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I'm sorry, later this year probably.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, let's go so with this.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You can't. We're verifying that you can visit the remains
of the James today in DC. Is it open to
the public? Or is it? What's the situation there?
Speaker 4 (27:13):
So Smithsonian Castle is currently under renovation and will be
for several more years because it's old and needs a
little TLC. And so while it's under renovation, you can't
go inside. But normally and you know, post renovation, Yeah,
you walk in the front door and immediately to your
left is this little crypt like alcove, and there you
can see James Smithson's well, you can't see his remains,
(27:36):
you can't see like his skull or anything, but you
could see the you know, the monument containing his remains,
and you can read about him. There's a little portrait
of him etched in marble, and you can have your
moment with the remains of James.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
What a fantastic story, What an amazing and I'm not
even a t empties sound hyperbolic, what an amazing journey.
We've We've got characters from other historical events showing up
as cameos. This is a heck of a team up.
And Nolah, I don't know about you, but this is
something I was as a person visits the Smithsonian often,
(28:14):
I was not aware of this origin story.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I wasn't either, and I will say that I just
I feel like this is a normal episode with a
siting with Smithsonian Institution. There is a fantastic article or
a I guess, sort of a record of James Smithson
at Oxford that has some of his papers and then
some really really great backstory about his time at Oxford University.
But there's this fabulous portrait of him wearing like the
(28:40):
classic cap and gown kind of situation, with his legs
crossed and his breeches kind of showing, and he's got
these lovely pointy shoes. But just the portrait of an
academic he.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Was thought to have style. He was described as sickly
and effeminate, so you know, make of that what you will.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
But he's a little pale here, but he looks stylish
as heck. He looks like David Bowie type figure.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I love that he's ahead of his time and he
and Lizzie. First, we have to say thank you so
much for sharing and exploring this story with us today.
We know that you can hear the entirety of this
story in the episode of Side Door season seven, episode fifteen,
(29:27):
and Lizzie, in this episode of Side Door, you speak
directly with the aforementioned William Bennett, who received restored and
then deciphered this sheepskit that I mean that's true. Yes, yeah,
it feels weird to say it that way. Yeah, we
should just use the name. But we can't thank you
(29:49):
enough for joining us, and we'd love to have you
back on the show. We'd love to join forces again
because light spoiler folks. As you know, Noel, there are
others stories that we're hoping to get to in the future,
and we can't thank you enough. But we do have
to ask the question that all our ridiculous historians are
(30:11):
asking right now. Where can people learn more about side
Door and where can they learn about your other work?
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Well, they can learn about side Door at si dot
edu slash side door, which has our website, or by
following us on social media at side door pod.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And yeah, curely the podcast is available anywhere you get
to oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Anywhere you get your podcasts. All the usual suspects, and
we've got hundreds of stories. You know, science, are history, culture,
you name it. Surf around see if something jumps out
at you. But yeah, there's one story in particular I
think you guys might enjoy about the right brothers.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
We've talked about. It's in our back pocket. We can't
wait to do it. Hopefully, if this went well, you
get permission from the Brass, then we will absolutely come
back and do that, right brothers, Store.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
I also want to give a shout out to Heather Ewing,
who is Smithson's biographer, and we speak with her directly
in that episode too. She's she's a great interview. So
you can hear it from the horse's mouth. Sorry, Heather,
you are not like a horse in any way I heard. Regret, sure, regret,
regret nothing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
There's no regrets that ridiculous history.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And with that, folks, get thee to the podcast platform
of your choice and check out side Door as they'll
set available wherever you get your favorite podcasts. This has
been ridiculous history. Thank you, as always so much to
our super producer mister Max Williams uh and thanks to
well the Smithsonian a lot of episodes.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Thanks to the superproducer Max Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Christopherrasciotis needs Jeff Coates here in Spirit and aj Jacobs
The Puzzler and.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
On the Quizzer Jacob and Jonathan Jonathan Sirc glynd Ak,
the quistor, the sort of Duke of Northumberland, of our
show and of course thanks to you. Lizzie can't wait
to join you again in the future.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
You are welcome. It's been a pleasure. Enjoy the rest
of your segue ride.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the
myth legend. Super producer, mister Max Williams. Who there it is,
I'm Big Bullet, You're Noel Brown, And we couldn't be
more excited about this incredibly cinematic and strange story we're
(00:48):
exploring with our guests today.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Oh man, it's such as it's a wild ride. There's scandal.
It's like an episode of Bridgerton.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
So I hear.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I've never actually seen Bridgerton, but I hear it's I
heard sultry and vaguely historical. But this story, yeah, that's
a bus This story not as many butts, a little sultry.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Highly historical.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So let's go to our conversation with Lizzie Peabody, the
host and senior producer of the Smithsonians podcast Side Door.
It is a tragic thing, even though it occurred so
long ago, it's it's difficult to really understand that kind
(01:34):
of trauma. Right. You know your father is alive, you
know that society is looking upon you as an outcast,
similar to how your mother was treated when she was
when she was pregnant with you.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm sorry really quickly. The moment in the movie is
my father. He's alive. I never knew my father. I'm sorry,
carry on. So what happens next?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Oh me?
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Oh right, I guess I am telling the story. I
was like, what does happen next? I'm on the edge
of my seat.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Cinema draw.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
No, Sean Connery does not get to be There's no
Scottish Sean Connery.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
He can do an American accent. Have you seen the
James Bond.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Film to do a British accent? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm just ragging on his sort of amorphous accent in
the James Bond movies. But no, what truly does happen next?
In the actual facts telling of this tale?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
So in the actual facts telling of this tale, the
Duke of Northumberland dies. James Macy graduates from Oxford. He
becomes a chemist and a mineralogist, and he's known as
a nomadic bachelor who loved to gamble. He publishes twenty
seven scientific papers. He becomes revered for his geologic study
(02:51):
of Scotland's fingles, cave and he's just like this passionate
He's just this passionate scientist guy who ambles around. There's
there's a note of some hotel owner find him for
like trekking a bunch of rocks and dirt in his
hotel room. He was always collecting stuff. He just like
a studying nature.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
He's a nomad for natural science.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I love the idea of a bad boy scientist, you know,
he flouting the rules, writing his scientific theories on the
back of cocktail napkins at the craps tables.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah kind of Yeah. And this was the age of Enlightenment,
so scientists were actually celebrities. He was. He was kind
of a rock star of the natural science world, and
he kind of sought solace in science. You know, the
laws of nature applied equally to everyone, and so he
had this chip on his shoulder. He's sort of the
(03:42):
way I figure he was thinking, you know, like if
I can't have a family legacy, I may as well
have one that's in science. And he really devoted himself
to that. When he was thirty five years old, his
mother died and he pretty much immediately changed his name
to the Duke's original last name of Smithson.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Ah, okay, so now maybe a lot of dickens. Enough
time has passed, yes, right, and he has been as
a as a man who has been quarreling with his
identity and his position for the entirety of his life.
He has this sort of crossroads and he makes the
(04:23):
decision to sort of redefine himself.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
He's taking it back, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, So he goes from being James Macy to being
James Smithson and on top of that hit so not
only is he making some great scientific discoveries, like he
discovered a new mineral Smithsonit.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh super humble to do with that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Yeah, well you know, now he had his name so briefly.
Now that he had his name, I think he had
to really make it count.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
He's going in, we say, Erica, I'm all with it.
I'm behind him.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Smith's to Night was actually important for brass production, and
this was like the beginning of the industrial revolution. So
he racked up a fortune. He's like making the big bucks.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So now he's a Tony Stark figure.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Yeah, or actually I don't know. Is that a Game
of Thrones reference?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's it's a comic book reference.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I'm you know.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I used to call Elon Musk the monte Tony Stark,
but they stopped.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Do you know, we're a kind of a Mark Zuckerberg
or Tom from MySpace, sort of sort of like the
Ted Talkie crowd aspiration of a maverick, wealthy, very smart person.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Also benevolence who has seen.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
His benevolent and pioneering That checks out. Okay, okay, so there,
there we are. Our pal James is at the top
of the world right on multiple levels here because as
you said, he has this covered, a mineral that is
powering part of the industrial revolution. Is that correct? Is
(06:07):
that overstaving the car?
Speaker 4 (06:08):
I have no idea. I don't know enough about brass
production to say for sure.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Okay, we got to call our brass guy.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
We got to Yeah, let's get a fact check on that.
But I think it's sufficient to say, like it was
important enough, people wanted it, and it made him a
lot of money.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
There you go, there we go.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
All right, So now he is, despite the fact that
he has not inherited assent from his biological father, he
has made his own fortune.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Oh yes, you love to see it, you really do.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
There's science through the pursuit of knowledge, you know, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And he also was like kind of you know, shoved
aside for so long and denied his legacy and now
he's built one of his own, accord, and yet he
still did want that name, which I do think is interesting.
If it were me, I would have kept my name
and been like, screw you, dad, you know this is me.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I did this. I don't need you.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
But I understand the times were different, and there was
you know, there was sort of like an expectation or
it was his kind of again taking back that power
that had been taken from him.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah, so who knows exactly why I did it, but
I think that's a pretty good bet. Sorry, that was
like a very school army answer.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I don't know, I'm just speculated, but I do think
it's interesting that despite being kind of mistreated, he would
choose to you know, push forth that name, and that's
the name is everything in the story, right.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
I think it's also relevant that he changed it only
after his mother died and right after his brother died,
so it was probably out of respect for her feelings
that he didn't change it sooner, But he had been
lusting after that name his whole life probably, And.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Again, yeah, he had been there was definitely anticipation. He
had been waiting. And we also know to your excellent point,
was he that he from earlier that he is even
though he's very quite brilliant, right, quite a sharp guy,
he is a product of society that is very much
(08:02):
bloodline and lineage based. So now that's what I was
getting out, Like, yeah, he very much establishes that's right.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
Right. So James Smithson was not going to make the
same mistake that his uncle lumly had made and die
without a will, So he writes his own will. He
could have afforded lawyers, but he does it himself. He's like,
I know what I want and this is it. And
there's two James. Yeah, so James's And there's two clauses
(08:28):
in particular that are a little unusual. The first is
that all of his money will go to his nephew,
and if his nephew dies, to his nephew's children, which
could be legitimate or illegitimate, so he does not distinguish
between the two. The second is that if his nephew
has no children, the money goes to the United States
(08:51):
of America. Okay, okay, and this is what he wrote.
This is my James Smithson voice.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Oh yeah, it's gonna sound like Sean Connery.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Sorry, sure, okay, let me try.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
I bequeath the whole of my property to the United
States of America, to found in Washington under the name
of the Smithsonian Institution, an establishment for the increase and
diffusion of knowledge among men.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Here here who couldn't who wouldn't support that? That sounds
like an absolutely noble pursuit.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
And folks, let's hear it for the voice acting.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
It was very well too.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
I didn't even attempt an accent.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I know my life, didn't overdo it. If they had
profit toss, I think it was. I would give it
eight out of ten.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Now we're talking like film producers, you know what?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Eight five eight point Wow?
Speaker 4 (09:46):
That sounds like great inflation. I think I am going
to accept the eight.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
But not there.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Oh wow.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So with this, though, we see something that may sound
a bit unusual. We're arriving at the genesis, the origin story,
the evidence of the great Smithsonian as an institution. Lizzie,
why would he do this? I see like the order
(10:16):
of operations and scenarios, right, Nephew, nephew's kids. If no nephew,
if no children, then boom this whole country.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
The United States of America. Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, So
you know, he had never even been to the United States.
Boats made him seasick, so he had never even He
left all his money to this place he'd never even seen.
But according to our experts, he saw the United States
(10:47):
as the antithesis of the English society that had denied
him legitimacy his whole life. America claimed to be built
on democracy, you know, not aristocracy, and he was like,
that is a project I can get behind. You guys,
get my money.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Okay, And really there though sort of an unproven thing,
this democracy relatively.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Pretty new, but it is definitely a bold experiment.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I think he saw himself as like an early investor.
You know, he was like, I really, I really want
to support this project.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So, as we know, despite this what seems to be
a strange decision to the European society of the day,
as we know, they.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Also shunned him though right European society shunned him. He
was saying, you know what, you don't get a penny,
European society.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
This was as much against that society, as it was
for this society that he never actually visited.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
This was a big bleep you.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, there you get to the pre bleeps. I love it.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
No, that literally just went off like a rocket in
my head, like that is what he was doing. It
was the middle to the society that had rejected him.
He's almost like a he's both a superhero and a
super villain, depending on which side of the line.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
He's super committed to the bit, that's for sure. And
this so okay, now, now, Lizzie, perhaps we assume the
role of the people across the pond, right, is this
a gift horse in the mouth situation? I'm butchering that,
but you know the gift horse in the mouth? Is it?
(12:28):
How do people respond with this strange, innovative, nomadic scientist
who wants to give you a ton of money.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Well, nobody actually knows about it yet because he's still alive.
So the United States is like in the dark. So
he writes up this will and then sorry, we haven't
killed James Smiths and yet, so I just have to
do that briefly, okay, ahead, Yeah, So he writes up
his will and he's like, all right, dust off his hands.
I'm done with that. He moves to Genoa, Italy, Genoa.
(13:00):
I don't know Italy. Okay, Genoa, we'll go with that.
And at the age of sixty four, after an illness
we don't know a whole lot about, he died. This
was eighteen twenty nine, and so his nephew inherits his money,
as is the plan, and his nephew has no children,
and only six years later, his nephew dies with no children.
(13:23):
So at that point across the ocean, the baby government
of the United States of America learns to their surprise
that some dude they have never heard of has left
them a kaboodle of money, and they're just like, wait,
who and why and a British Man, we don't understand.
(13:43):
They're actually highly suspicious because you know, it's only fifty
two years before the US fought Britain for independence, and
then only twenty one years before was the War of
eighteen twelve when the British actually invaded Washington and set
it on fire, So that was pretty alive in the
memories of the people there.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Right right. And then also, yeah, we can't blame the
the politicians of the day for being somewhat skeptical with
with this amount of money.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Yeah, it was the equivalent of like today's I don't
catch about one hundred million dollars. Yeah, they were like,
what are the strings attached here?
Speaker 3 (14:23):
One hundred million?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You say, yes, okay, and this is to be like,
like the idea would be to establish this is there
an ongoing endowment or how does that.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Part of it work?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
No?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
I think it was just to get it started. It's like,
here's all my money, make something called the Smithsonian Institution
for the Increase in Diffusion of Knowledge. You guys figure it.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Out, which is other? Yeah, pretty pretty prof Yes. Yeah,
that's like when an executive producer walks in and says
something with something with aspiration, maybe a bird.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Yeah, it's gotta be work it out.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Gotta say though, before we get to the stunning conclusion
of this tale, clearly you guys took the ball and
ran with it because Smithsonian Institution kind of a big deal.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Seems to have done well by our boy here.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
You know, as the physical embodiment of the Smithsonian Institution.
I thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I wanted to hear your weigh in on this.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So what how Yeah, how do they set about doing
this sort of vague like and how does one even
hold like judge the criteria of doing such a thing
with someone's money, Like are there boxes to tick?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Like?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
They could have just phoned it in, I guess, but
they clearly did not.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
The money moves, so I imagine one of the big
things was learning first that it is a real sum
and that changes the tenor of the conversation and being
that it was, being that it was and is us Congress.
I imagine there was a lot of back and forth
once they decided it was real.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Money shockingly had a hard time deciding what to do
with all this money. They It took them a little
while too a great so in eighteen thirty eight the
money was boxed up ship to the United States, so like, okay,
it's real here it is, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No wire transfer, yea literally cash money shipped through the mail.
This seems so terrifying when you think about it by
today's stand.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Yeah, and then it just sat there I don't know,
at the Treasury wherever it would have sat for over
a decade while Congress tried to figure out what to
do with it. It took over ten years. They were like
I don't know, okay, increase in diffusion of knowledge. Is
it a university, is it a laboratory, is it a
school for teachers? Is it a museum?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Knowledge is the most important in priority right right.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
So eventually they did decide and on August tenth, eighteen
forty eight, Congress pass legislation that created the Smithsonian Institution.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Lizee, that's the day before my birthday. Really awesome, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
You were born in eighteen forty six.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We're not doing questions for the.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
But that's funny.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But then myself and our co host on our other
podcast stuff that I want you to know all have
like August birthdays within days of one another.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Oh my gosh, it's a bunch of leos. It sounds
like not to bring astrology into the room.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
No, no, bring it. Some of some of that stuff
is painfully real.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Somebody in Congress was probably say, well, what's our take
on astrology? That's probably what James is focusing on. I
think the want to be. And then someone says, no,
what about math? And he's like, you are such a virgo?
What a budget.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Way to bring it back to the story. That was
a beautiful, beautiful segue.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
But as we know.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I mean, the Smithsonian Institution encompasses numerous facets of all
of this stuff, and obviously they didn't happen overnight. But
I just think it's so cool. You got to start somewhere,
and that's why I think the story is so fascinating.
But you know what, what would the early day of
this institution have looked like or if.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
It felt like well, it was the oh gosh, I
should have done like this isn't aside, I should have
done more research. It was the first national museum to start,
so the Smithsonian was known as the National Museum in
the early days, and it was but it was mostly
built around scientific knowledge. The first Secretary of the Smithsonian
was known as the Nation's Chief Scientist. That was a
(18:27):
role that we had for many years. So it had
a heavy science focus. But there was a lot of
back and forth in the early days between secretaries and
the secretary is sort of like the chief of the Smithsonian,
about whether it was a research institution or a museum.
So there was a lot of push and pull, and
(18:48):
those early players had a lot of impact on shaping
the direction of the museum, and it was very It
was heated at times. That's a whole other story.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
You guys can get me back for that, so'd be thrilled.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But there is an epilogue because remember we left James
in Italy.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Right in Genoa.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Now in that building, right, that red castle with the crypt, right,
am I remembering correctly?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I remember it?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (19:17):
So okay. So in nineteen oh three, this was seventy
four years after James Smithson died the city of Genoa
was doing some renovations and they were going to bulldoze
the cemetery where he was buried. So they were having
to kind of relocate all these bodies and they were
kind of calling next of kid and all that to
be like, hey, come get your people. And so by
(19:42):
this time, the Smithsonian Institution was well established and the castle,
you know, was standing proudly on the National Mall. And
someone from the cemetery calls and is like, hey, we've
got James Smithson. He's like important to you. We have
your guy. Do you want his body? And the Board
of Regents, which is sort of the governing board of Smithsonian,
(20:04):
they were like, no thanks, that sounds really inconvenient, like
we don't want a corpse. Thanks, but no thanks. So
they're just like no, except for one guy, Alexander Graham
Bell is like no, he will we not leave.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
James listen to be bulldozed, right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
The Alexander Graham Bell resumed a couple other things.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
He he did some work in hydrofoils. But he maybe.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Invented the mirror ball, a disco ball, Yeah, the smoking machine.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
He's the he's the guy. He's the creator of the casadia,
you know, and and also loosely associated with the telephone.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
That's right, but that's his least well known thing.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, that's kind of a deep cut.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Who can compete with the disco ball. Once you've invented
the disco ball, everything else is down.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
He also invented that move with the one finger.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, he had a little zig zaggy you know, it
goes with the ball.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah. Why, I'm sorry it was him. He took this
upon himself.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
He felt strongly about this, and he's like, I'm gonna
go save our boy our boys remains.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Yeah. Well, he felt strongly because he, like James Smithson,
was a scientist and a philanthropist, and he felt a
connection to this guy. He felt like he'd done a
really great thing for the country and for science, and
he wanted to see his remains treated with respect. So
he was like, yeah, this is inconvenient and possibly expensive
and all that, but we owe it to James Smithson
(21:38):
to go get him. And he offered to pay himself
to go get his remains, and finally he got permission.
Off he went on a boat to Italy. I think
his wife went with him. I think it was like
just the two of them off on this mission.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
And a romantic invention.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yea remains, do a little sight seeing.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
It's also a long journey, so he was very serious
about yes, yeah, not convenience, not hop in a flight.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
In my like cinema of the mind moment here, it's
like they're standing at the rail of the ship, just
like squinting to see the shoreline of Italy, and they're
they're each holding like large trowels. They're just like, yes, yes, ready.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
They're ready to dig, ready from home.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
They're disenturing and they're oh my gosh, you know what
they're having that Indiana Jones moment. Alexander Graham Bell looks
at his spouse and like points off in their rison
and goes it belongs in a museum.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So they do disinter zoom. I guess this remains bring
them back to the castle.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Can't say if he did all the digging himself or what,
but I think there was permits and some bribery and
it was harder than they thought. But they did eventually
bring him back and and you know once I mean
Alexander Graham Bell did most of the heavy lifting. So
once he actually got back to DC, President Teddy Roosevelt
was like, okay, okay, Well, you know, the Navy greeted
the boat at the entrance to the harbor, and the
(23:07):
cavalry met them at the dock, and the casket was
loaded into a wagon and draped in flags American and
British flags, and the marine band played, and the whole
shebang went up to the castle and they like drop
off the casket in the castle and they're like, okay,
what do we do with it?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Oh, they don't have a place for it.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
It didn't really It's a long trip they could have
maybe figured.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Out had the time, though.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
Is the thing, you know, I think it was one
of those things where you know, when like you know,
and your partners like, hey, I have this great idea
and you're like, I don't think that's a good idea
at all, but I don't think that you'll ever actually
do it, so I'm going to give you my full endorsement.
And then they come back and they're like, hey, I
did this great thing, and you're like, oh, man, I.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Got that tattoo we were talking about. Remember last night
you said that I was just drinking.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But here we are are Do you love it? You do?
Speaker 4 (24:03):
So the twist is that I am that partner in
this story. I'm the one with low executive functions. So
my husband is always like, sounds great. You do it,
knowing full well that I will never manage to do it,
but occasionally I do occasionally.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Okay, you have you ever, Lizzie, have you ever been
in a situation where you say, Darling, would you like
to go to Genoa and let's say we pick up
a body.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I haven't yet, but I have that one in my
back pocket.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
It hasn't presented itself.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
I haven't found the right body yet.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, if I may. They don't know what to do
with it, so they just kind of take the path
of least resistance here, right.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Right, So well, they first they do actually hold a contest.
They're like, Okay, we don't know what to do with it,
people of America, what should we do with this?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And people write it contayk goodness, the internet wasn't around.
Do you imagine named Ody mcbod fain right your suggestions?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Oh boy? Well, people had a real like high aspirations.
One of the one of the ideas was to build
something several times the size of the Washington Monument in
honor of Smithson, which would have been like it's like, yeah, yeah,
we have Washington and then even taller in the background,
we have James Smithson. But that didn't that didn't end
up happening. I think it was a budgeting issue. So
(25:23):
eventually what they did was they took the janitor's closet
right to the left of the main entrance and they
did a little light remodeling and they added a little
sign that says crypt and they put it in there.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
See in my theater of the mind, they just pasde like,
took a sticky note, stuck it over janitor and just
wrote crypt on it with a sharpie like that's just
what my mind immediately can't get rid of that.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Did they move the you know, like the mops, the
buckets busy or did they just did they just like
place them on the Let's give credit where credit is.
Surely they made it crypt like your museum, like if
it's hanging on the wall.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
You know, I can't really say what it looked like
in those early days. But since they have added, you know,
they Alexander Graham Bell also brought over the tombstone from Genoa.
So there's this like ten foot tall slab of marble
in there with his name on it, and there's some flags,
and there's some plaques now explaining like who he is
and and he himself is there at the very foot
(26:31):
of the of the monument, you know, James's remains are there.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I can see this, the remains of the James.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
The remains of the James.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, first stop, Okay, I hope you know now that
I am going to lean on you heavily for my
itinerary for when I do.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Do this this eventual can the Smithsonian.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I'm sorry, later this year probably.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Well, let's go so with this.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
You can't. We're verifying that you can visit the remains
of the James today in DC. Is it open to
the public? Or is it? What's the situation there?
Speaker 4 (27:13):
So Smithsonian Castle is currently under renovation and will be
for several more years because it's old and needs a
little TLC. And so while it's under renovation, you can't
go inside. But normally and you know, post renovation, Yeah,
you walk in the front door and immediately to your
left is this little crypt like alcove, and there you
can see James Smithson's well, you can't see his remains,
(27:36):
you can't see like his skull or anything, but you
could see the you know, the monument containing his remains,
and you can read about him. There's a little portrait
of him etched in marble, and you can have your
moment with the remains of James.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
What a fantastic story, What an amazing and I'm not
even a t empties sound hyperbolic, what an amazing journey.
We've We've got characters from other historical events showing up
as cameos. This is a heck of a team up.
And Nolah, I don't know about you, but this is
something I was as a person visits the Smithsonian often,
(28:14):
I was not aware of this origin story.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I wasn't either, and I will say that I just
I feel like this is a normal episode with a
siting with Smithsonian Institution. There is a fantastic article or
a I guess, sort of a record of James Smithson
at Oxford that has some of his papers and then
some really really great backstory about his time at Oxford University.
But there's this fabulous portrait of him wearing like the
(28:40):
classic cap and gown kind of situation, with his legs
crossed and his breeches kind of showing, and he's got
these lovely pointy shoes. But just the portrait of an
academic he.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Was thought to have style. He was described as sickly
and effeminate, so you know, make of that what you will.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
But he's a little pale here, but he looks stylish
as heck. He looks like David Bowie type figure.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I love that he's ahead of his time and he
and Lizzie. First, we have to say thank you so
much for sharing and exploring this story with us today.
We know that you can hear the entirety of this
story in the episode of Side Door season seven, episode fifteen,
(29:27):
and Lizzie, in this episode of Side Door, you speak
directly with the aforementioned William Bennett, who received restored and
then deciphered this sheepskit that I mean that's true. Yes, yeah,
it feels weird to say it that way. Yeah, we
should just use the name. But we can't thank you
(29:49):
enough for joining us, and we'd love to have you
back on the show. We'd love to join forces again
because light spoiler folks. As you know, Noel, there are
others stories that we're hoping to get to in the future,
and we can't thank you enough. But we do have
to ask the question that all our ridiculous historians are
(30:11):
asking right now. Where can people learn more about side
Door and where can they learn about your other work?
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Well, they can learn about side Door at si dot
edu slash side door, which has our website, or by
following us on social media at side door pod.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And yeah, curely the podcast is available anywhere you get
to oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Anywhere you get your podcasts. All the usual suspects, and
we've got hundreds of stories. You know, science, are history, culture,
you name it. Surf around see if something jumps out
at you. But yeah, there's one story in particular I
think you guys might enjoy about the right brothers.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
We've talked about. It's in our back pocket. We can't
wait to do it. Hopefully, if this went well, you
get permission from the Brass, then we will absolutely come
back and do that, right brothers, Store.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
I also want to give a shout out to Heather Ewing,
who is Smithson's biographer, and we speak with her directly
in that episode too. She's she's a great interview. So
you can hear it from the horse's mouth. Sorry, Heather,
you are not like a horse in any way I heard. Regret, sure, regret,
regret nothing.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
There's no regrets that ridiculous history.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
And with that, folks, get thee to the podcast platform
of your choice and check out side Door as they'll
set available wherever you get your favorite podcasts. This has
been ridiculous history. Thank you, as always so much to
our super producer mister Max Williams uh and thanks to
well the Smithsonian a lot of episodes.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Thanks to the superproducer Max Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Christopherrasciotis needs Jeff Coates here in Spirit and aj Jacobs
The Puzzler and.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
On the Quizzer Jacob and Jonathan Jonathan Sirc glynd Ak,
the quistor, the sort of Duke of Northumberland, of our
show and of course thanks to you. Lizzie can't wait
to join you again in the future.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
You are welcome. It's been a pleasure. Enjoy the rest
of your segue ride.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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