October 30, 2018 • 31 mins
Lenny Bruce is a legend in the history of stand-up comedy, and while his use of explicit language thrilled audience members, it didn't win him any friends in law enforcement. In fact, Bruce was arrested multiple times for his use of 'obscenities', sparking a larger, continuing debate about the nature of free speech. Join the guys as they learn more about the early days of stand-up and the Lenny Bruce controversy with this week's special guest: Comedian, actor, writer and historian Wayne Federman.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we get started, folks, it's important to know that
this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may
not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've
got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be
the episode for them. We thought about censoring it, but
we decided we couldn't, not in good faith, because this
(00:20):
episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope
you enjoy. And one additional note, we had a little
bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of this episode,
this first part of our two part series. Due to
this technical difficulty, Noels Mike is actually not on for
the duration of the first episode or for most of it. However,
(00:43):
we believe that this interview was important enough and enjoyable
enough and fantastic enough that we wanted to salvage it
and play it out in full and hopefully I didn't
say too much. Yea, welcome to the show, ridiculous historians,
(01:24):
we have something very special for you today. Now we
get our yucks, and we get our go fas and
our chuckles occasionally when you say no, that's how we
referred to them. But we have rarely talked about the
profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy and
(01:44):
comedy is commentary right now, like way way back in
the day in Western Europe, even the jester was the
only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.
It's a profession of truth telling, Ben, which is your name,
and it's evolved over time and it's become an important
source of satire and social commentary. And it's these comedians
(02:04):
that are able to say things that are needed to
help society, like move forward into help change laws and
change perspectives. And that is no exception for the two
incredible comics we're talking about today. But we're not doing
it alone our way back right, that's right, Well, we
are joined, of course, as always with our super producer.
We've got Paul deck In filling in for Casey Pegraham today.
(02:25):
Make sure you knock out those sound cues, Paul. But
we did not come alone into this phrae of comics
versus the law. We came with an expert. We would
like to introduce you, fellow ridiculous historians, to demand the
myth legend. Wayne Fetterman, thank you, thank you for calling
(02:48):
me a myth. What does it mean to be a myth?
Does that mean you don't exist. That means I don't exist.
If you've watched television over the last several ever, yeah,
mean you have seen this man and everything from the
X Files. I saw you in an episode of Baywatch,
which was very impressive. Are Dean Weinstock and Curb Enthusiasm,
(03:09):
And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting Julia
Louis Dreyfuss so that he would have a wire removed
from his backyard. And the meeting didn't go well, and
you refuse to have the wire removed. What is your deal?
What was that line? What was that line? And that
and that When we say you call that a meeting,
I call that one of the most horror just a
horrible moment in my life. Yes, that was That was amazing. Also,
(03:32):
just before we continue with my credits, because that's gonna
be the best part of the show. Um, you know,
none of those lines are written, so every it's just
you have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen
in that scene, and we do it, and we do it,
and then we'll do it a few times and then
Larry will go more of that, less of that, more
of this that's funny. And so every line you hear
(03:53):
me say on that show is something I wrote at
the moment. That's even that's incredible. And I have to ask,
is to peep behind the curtain? Is a pedantic number
of takes? Or is it? Is it pretty much like
let's do it a couple of let's do it one
more time. It seems like Larry would be more laid back,
like be a little more like a brief emotional direction
or something. What's the scoop? Well, that's a good question
(04:14):
for that was I mean, this was early on. That's
like the sixth episode of the show, so they were
still kind of figuring out their technique at that point,
and a guy named Larry Charles was directing it. But
just basically Larry David like, yeah, that's that's close enough.
Let's go on to the next thing. Like it wasn't.
It wasn't like, oh, this moment has to be perfect,
(04:35):
and so yeah, so it wasn't a lot of texts.
Although I will say this, and this is gonna sound
like I'm bragging, but I'm not. It's just that Larry
sometimes gets like these giggle fits. And so the next
time I did the show where I had to hug
him and he breaks my glasses and I'm like, no problem,
I'll just send you an invoice. That's right. Um. He
kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in my like,
(04:58):
I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy. Is sort
of with the angle of that dude, uh that He
just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where he
had to apologize to the crew for pushing the shoot back.
So that's great, I mean, oh my god. I just
want to say I wish Larry David was my dad.
I've said that many times. I don't know. I didn't
have a very good relationship with my dad, so maybe
(05:19):
that's being informed by that. But Larry David just strikes
me as like the perfect curmudgeon. But he also seems
like he'd be pretty cool to work with and pretty
easy to get. You want a dad his multimillionaire Yeah,
I guess, you know, and and and just makes great observations,
you know what. Uh No, I I agree. I would
love it if he were your dad, because then I
could just come over. But I wouldn't it wouldn't have
(05:41):
to be a forever thing. I could leave, but let
us let let us continue just a little bit, Wayne
with some more of some more of these credentials. Uh,
some people may not know that you are a professor
at the University of Southern California. Correct, that is correct?
I am officially, I mean I'm a professor, that's the
(06:02):
right word. But I'm an adjunct professor. Do you know
what that means? Does that mean not tenured? Does that
mean you don't have an office and all of those things? Correct?
Whatever you think? I mean, it's it basically means not
a real professors. What it means it means I don't
have like a master's or a PhD or something like that.
But just are you teaching the history of stand up?
(06:22):
Is that your specialty in both the history of stand
up and a performance class combined? And it's advanced, it's
you have to take another stand up class even to
get to Professor Vetterman. Well, yeah, so if we were
to enroll, we would have to start start at level one.
Got pre rex I have And not only do you
(06:44):
teach these classes, you also have a brand new podcast
on the Podglomerate network, All the History of stand Up,
which is a surprise surprise, is about the history of
standard Yeah, it's not a it's not a misdirect. It's
not like, oh my god, we're just gonna be talking about,
you know, youth culture and um ra monrovia. That's how
(07:05):
good I am at ad libbing. I can't quite get
a word out. But you never know, we're gonna tap
some of your your knowledge on the subject today for
this episode. Course, that's why I'm here. Before we continue,
I do want to say I specifically enjoyed the episode
on the rise of stand up or what we perceive
as modern stand up through the Vaudeville era, and thank you, Yeah,
(07:27):
thank you. I learned a lot. I'm going to be
insufferable at parties for the next few weeks. You want
to set the stage a little bit with just like
I think that the comics were talking about today obviously
benefited from and you mentioned at the top of the show, Ben,
the idea of stand up as truth telling and this
notion of the vaud what is it called the performance
of one performance in one one? Will you talk a
little bit about that way, like just this conceptslute Absolutely,
(07:49):
it's um just so you know, I know you you
hold these comedians up as these truth tellers and on
the vanguard of social change, and there is an element
of comedy that is that there's also a whole another sea,
a whole ocean of comedy that isn't that that's just
making people laugh, and in a way that's a wonderful experience.
(08:11):
So yeah, so I just I know you, I feel
like comedians, some kinds get elevated as these truth tellers.
Is like they're really just trying to get people to laugh,
is there is their main goal? Is their main goal?
So no, if you go back to Vault, it's interesting
you should you picked up on that episode because we
talked about this guy, Frank Fay, that a lot of
people look to is the the architect of the modern
(08:34):
what we consider the modern stand up. It was kind
of like a wise guy, smart guy in a suit,
who does you know, no baggy pants, no weird hats,
doesn't you know, crazy big tie or anything like that
that screams, Hey, I'm a comedian, you know, just a
got a sharp talking guy. And from that, this guy's
name is Frank Fay. And another time you should do
(08:55):
an episode, you guys should do one Frank Fay because
he's a really interesting guy because he not only creates this,
but is this. He's sort of anti Semitic, and he's
he supports the Nazis and it's just a crazy dude.
He's very insufferable man. And uh, it's just like that,
this guy. I love that. In fact, this is the
(09:15):
guy that sort of started the whole thing. It's perfect.
It's perfect. So anyway, Vaudeville was family entertainment and the
height of audeville, like what today would be getting a
Netflix special, was to perform at a theater in New
York called the Palace, which was right off Broadway. No, no,
it's a little higher than forty eight. And so that
(09:36):
was like the goal of every comedian, and Frank Faye
was the MC at the Palace. They used to not
even have mcs. They used to just put up a
placard or like a big card and say this is
you know, thinks Mules and then this act would come
out and they do it. So he would like in
between the acts, he like kibbits with the crowd, and
eventually that became his act. And by performing in one
(09:57):
usually there was a curtain and in one was the
very front of the stage. That meant there was you
didn't need anything behind you. So a lot of times
comedians were needed because they would be setting up an
acrobac act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while
the stand up was just doing his his stick. So
that was called being in one. And now it means
(10:18):
sort of like you are alone out there. It's it's
it's a literal and figurative statement, if I'm not mistaken.
So that's that makes sense though from from the behind
the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air, right,
You would want the right to have something to look at. Yep, yep, exactly.
You don't want a big, deep stage behind you when
(10:39):
all you really need is it just your voice. And
then microphones sort of changed that a little bit, you know,
and that was more than nightclub era. And that's when
they added something called alcohol to the equation. And is
that what is that kind of moved more from vaudeville
into like burlesque where becomes less of a family affair.
Is that when no burlesque ray and rank concurrent to vaudeville,
(11:02):
which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind
of looked down upon and mainly men went to burlesque shows,
not a lot of women, and it was sort of
like there might be a stripper or a you know,
a very fan dancer, so you know, like that. And
and the comedians in burlesque were way more broad and
because you had you know, there was just guys there
(11:22):
in the you know, degenerates in the middle of the
afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard to
do very subtle kind of you know, Jack Benny hyper
humor to these guys. So burlesque grand concurrent to vaudeville,
but was like considered a low form of entertainment. And
(11:45):
when when we were originally talking before doing this episode, uh,
we had asked you to share with our listeners some
stories about what we would what we would call notorious
cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this
up now because when we I believe you had said
(12:09):
earlier in the history of stand up that the term
stand up comic didn't really come about until the late
forties maybe or so correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast.
This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought
my podcast would be for like I don't know, hundred
and eighty people who ridged in the history of this,
(12:29):
so um, yeah, they didn't have a term for like
when Milton Burrow was doing stand up and we have
a clip of Burl at the Winter Garden Theater doing
basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a joke
about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three waiters
for each table. Wanted to give you the check and
two to revive you. So, you know, just like a joke,
just you know, jokes. And he was doing that stuff
(12:51):
before there was even the term stand up, so they
called him either monologists or comics or something like that.
But then eventually, like kers wanted to know what you
were getting, Like they would book a variety show and
they would need a singer and you know, maybe a juggler,
and then a comic and then go what kind of
comedy does he stand up? Does he need music? Does
(13:12):
he you know? And so it was a specific kind
of comic who just used their voice. I guess one
of the big questions we have, like the two Knowle's
exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with vaudeville but being
considered a lower form of entertainment, where did these stand
up comics fit in Were they controversial, were they just
(13:36):
something new and strange? Was it a slow evolution or
a sudden one. That's a good question. Um, I you know,
I think people always you know, I just think it's
a human need to want to laugh. Like, especially in
a group of people. It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know,
elevated moment when you're all laughing at the same time.
(13:58):
I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called
Sullivan's Travels, um, but it's just a great movie about
this Broadway producer who, like it, gets burnt out on
Hollywood and goes to see what, you know, what is
it pretends he's like a bum and and one of
the great moments is him just watching these these cartoons
with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're all laughing together,
(14:22):
and it's like, oh, there's value in this. There's a value.
It's a beautiful movie. And uh, I know that's a
little sidetrack, but my point fantastic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's uh it's like, well, I don't know anyway, Joel McCrae,
Veronica Lake, I'm gonna name the whole cast people no
one's ever heard of um, I'm gonna keep going. So
(14:43):
it's I don't know, I I guess you know, there's
always been funny, but like you said earlier, there's court
gestures and you know even uh, you know, early on
in vaudeville there was like funny comedian singer types, which
is like an Eddie Cantor or something like that, and
then they were just like, oh, people just like the
comedy part, and so people specialized in that, and then
(15:06):
that became very much more kind of like an opening
act for like a singer like I was just listening to,
Like George Carlin would open for this singer named Oliver
in the sixties, and Woody Allen opened for Barbara streisand
and then later for Jim Crocey. So it was like
a great way to sort of settle the crowd, get
some laughs, and then you know, get the headliner up there,
(15:28):
unless it was and eventually the comics became the headline. Well.
And it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right,
like you don't really need a whole lot of props
or you know, back line or like equipment or anything.
It's just a person in their brain and their mouth
and acrophone microphone, so that a d That's why musicians
like want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't
(15:49):
have to deal with this road crew guy and this
dude setting up my guitar and not tuning it right.
And like even to be in a band is a
lot of stuff. Like we just get on an airplane
or get in a are and go to the gig
and then go back. It's it is. I think it's
the simplest, right, there's really I mean, I'm gonna throw
that out to you guys. Can you think of anything
(16:10):
well you need to bring less physical attributes to the
to the act. No, not really. Maybe podcasting, I mean
they usually provide the mix for us to We're actually
doing our first tour next week, so we'll we'll report
back and let's how that goes. But you're going out
on the road. I love it. We're hitting the road. Wayne,
wish us luck. But listen, let's get let's get to
(16:30):
let's get to the let let's get to the headline.
So the headline. Alright, sorry, I'm not knowledge. I'm sorry,
he Professor Federman. Come on, let's take it easier. Um,
So we're talking about the term stand up not really
coming around until the forties. But around the fifties you
got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the
scene and he gets his start um, you know, doing
(16:52):
the same thing that a lot of comedians would do,
where he would be on what was it the Steve
Allen Show. I believe he was on pretty early in
his career. Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's
he's like this legend in a way because of what
he did basically in a like a four or five
year period. And I'll explain it to you. He really
he he was in the war in the forties. His
(17:13):
mom was in show basess, she was kind of a comic.
He does a talent show and he gets you know,
does a bunch of impressions, and then he's on Broadway
Open House and Night and then he's not really on
television at all. In for most of the fifties, he's
basically remember we're talking about burlesque and strip clubs. He
was basically comedian. The worked in strip clubs was his thing,
(17:34):
and which was this brutal existence, but he was you know,
he fell in love with this stripper named Honey and he, uh,
you know, he just could kind of develop this act
trying to entertain these guys and was just kicking around,
couldn't get anything go and try to make these short
films and wrote scripts in Hollywood and nothing, couldn't get
any traction, really, and then finally the when Mort Saul
(17:59):
came along long and opened up stand up to being
a little more about commentary, which you guys mentioned earlier.
This inspired Lenny Bruce. And also there was a yet
sort of a I don't know what's amused is the
word I would use named Joe antsis this is famous
comedy history who kind of developed Lenny Bruce's jazz talking
(18:23):
jive style. I don't know if you've heard his records,
but it's sometimes it's hard to even to connect with
them because the language is, like, you know, so up
tusive times. Ladies and gentlemen, the Balladium Theater, body present
Semedica's fastest rise young comedian and Dean of Satire, Mr
Frank Dell. Good Evening, ladies and gentlemen, and certainly iced
(18:44):
to be here at the most famous theater in the world,
the wonderful Palladium Theater. Well, folks, I just got back
from lost wages, nava funny thing about working lost wages, folks.
The way to make a lot of money there when
you get off the plane, walk one into the propeller
(19:07):
and then into the motel jokes, the army jokes, the impressions, ten, twelve,
fifteen minutes and he's bombing nothing but not left one.
Now he goes into the dying jokes about faults. I
wasn't born having I'm short dying here ha, a lot
(19:29):
of different ways to die, and blah blah blah. Now
he starts with putting the audience down. Well, freddie, freddie boy,
I see it's a little squares ville, the little squares
ville for the first show, the greatest in them all,
old baby crack worm. Let's go to show business, heaven.
(19:49):
How about it? My show walks off? I guess a
little courtesy employs two people. Sounds like citizen King harrible.
And again this is this is later in his career.
This is not in the fifty one or fIF He
only started recording later. And that recording is a perfect
example of it. If just this, you know, he would
do bits, but he had kind of a hey Man style,
(20:10):
and he was very much you know, into amphetamines and
pot and you know, he was he had a relationship
with with drugs, let's let's put it that way, ultimately
killed him. And then uh, then he puts you know,
he puts out this album and that came out in
nineteen fifty nine, and he was known for using dirty
(20:31):
words and became what known as a sick comedian. There
was a great article in Time magazine about these sick
comedians who would do just like one of his jokes
would be like, uh, the problem with my marriage was
my mother in law because I slept with her too
many times or something like, you know, just like we're
like people would be like, what is what is he?
What did I hear? You know that kind of thing.
(20:53):
And so, guess what. He starts making fun. One of
his big bits is called Religion Incorporated. And he starts
doing this bit, and you know a lot of cops
are irish, you know at that time, and so and
just you know, the d A s and stuff. So
he gets arrested in San Francisco and then it becomes
known as this comedian who's being censored, and sot of
(21:16):
that elevated him a little bit. And then he gets
arrested in Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know,
believe it or not, George Carlin is at that show
also gets arrested just because he won't show the cops
his I d and and Lenny Bridge is like, why
did they arrest you because I wouldn't show my idea
because you're a schmuck, you know that kind of thing.
(21:43):
But the big case happened in New York at the
cafe Wah wah. I think it's yehause he's like fed
up with these puritanical l A cops or southern California cops,
which is right. So he thinks New York is gonna
be way more progressive. And that's in Greenwich Village, right, yes, yes,
this is the scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and Dylan
(22:05):
is there, and it's like it's, uh, you know, it's
very couldn't be more progressive because I mean outside of
maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something, I mean, it is the
centerpiece of progressive and so he's like, Okay, I'm this
is where I'm going to do it. And of course,
you know, the Irish New York cops they arrest him,
and that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for
(22:28):
his entire life, and it wasn't until I believe two
thousand three when Governor Pataki of New York overturned or
gave him clemency or whatever. He pardoned him and instruct
that from the thing. So it was like he was
I know, it sounds impossible to believe that adult. No
adult complained. No, there wasn't one patron. I love using
(22:49):
that word patron at these clubs. It was like, I
can't like they knew the sick humor and Lenny Bruce
is what we want to see. This is what we
want to hear and to expand our minds a little bit.
We might be a f we can handle it. So
it was just just try to think of that, you
guys of a time not that long ago. I mean,
(23:10):
you know, I was born in fifty nine, so it's
not it's in my lifetime. When police would come into
an establishment and arrest somebody for using language that's insane.
They were also undercover police, is that correct, Like they
were there in playing clothes or something. Yes. Sometimes, I
mean the one in Chicago is hilarious, and because there's
(23:31):
a recording of it and you could he's talking about
the cop. He sees them over there, and then he
says something and then the cop literally says okay, folks
shows over, you know, like the cliche and uh, and
he gets arrested and then they just shut it down. Well,
and here's the thing too, they actually this was on
the book. So in New York when he got arrested,
it was because of something called Penal Code eleven forty
(23:54):
dash a. And this is this is the language of this.
It prohibited something they referred to as quote obscene, indecent, immoral,
and impure dram I assume that means drama, play, exhibition,
and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the
morals of youth and others. For you, and then you know,
(24:14):
this is so broad. This is such incredibly broad language,
the corruption of youth and others. And it's like, who's
asking for this? But it's also it's it's also part
of the hypocrisy of the American legal system. That's an
historic thing. It goes to any form of language or
communication like the maple thor photographs yea, or like the
(24:35):
James Joyce ulysses which went all went to the courts
on the basis of being what pornography and the ultimate
ruling was I know it when I see it, right, right,
So this is a very slipper. Now again, I want
to talk about all of these issues, including motion pictures
what's going on with them as well. But the point
you're making is youth and others. It was that the
(24:58):
language was that the youth and other Yeah, exactly, the
corruption of the morals of youth and others. So what
does this even mean? Who's asking for this? Where is
this coming from? What? What are your what are your thoughts?
I will tell you where it's coming from. There used
to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying,
in this community, we don't want a certain kind of
(25:20):
film here, and we don't want a certain kind of
entertainment here, and there was it was a lot of
it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would
have their own board which would decide would rate movies
and get the Catholic board didness let your movie come
into your town? It didn't come into your town, and
(25:40):
that you know, and that's how the politicians state in power,
and that's how these penal codes, including the one you
just read eleven. What was the number? A. Yeah, I
always think of eleven forty B. But I always get
that wrong. I always get that wrong. Now that's fair.
I'm not teaching. That's why I'm not at an Ivy
League school right there. So so that's that's going on
(26:03):
in the United States. Even when I was a KIG,
there was something called the Catholic League that would like, no,
you can't have this coming, this movie come in here.
So that only changed really in nine eight when they
started the movie rating system. So before then, I don't know.
This is incredible just it's a sidebar, but I think
it's interesting. It's a few years, maybe eight years after
(26:25):
Lenny Bruce gets arrested. A lot is that, you know,
they put in these rating systems. So now the first
movie to ever be right to win Best Picture is
a g rated movie, the only one a g rated
movie called Oliver. The next year, sixty nine, an X
rated movie wins Best Picture. What was it? That's um,
you know, John Boyd, everybody's talking midnight, which is it's
(26:50):
now been rerated. It's been rerated. Lenny Bruce in the
movie Lenny So full Circle. It's all one big thing.
It's all. But I'm just saying that sort of opened
up the world for a lot of movie goers, especially
in small towns in America, because and now they could
see a movie that the Catholic League didn't deem, you know,
(27:11):
immoral for this community, these community standards. So anyway, I
just want to give an overall view of like why
these penal codes were on the books. It just it
just gave them a legal reason to shut down a
movie or something like that. Oh and it's crazy and
we take all that for granted these days. I mean
it's so easy to uh not appreciate the fact that
I can go watch anything I want on Netflix or
(27:33):
you know, man in the in the theater, that I
can see dirty stuff. Well, people still do slide back
into moral panics on a cyclical basis here. Oh so,
for example, we will see the same kind of moral
panic of U of rock music polluting the hearts and
minds of young children because the beat is a little
(27:56):
too Bouncy's right. I mean there was even all that
Tipper Gore stuff with the parental advisory stickers and like
rap music and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So
absolutely it seems like that stuff goes in cycles, but
ultimately I feel like as a as a culture, we're
pretty free still to explore whatever you know, tickles our fancy.
As far as arts concerned, we are making progress, especially
(28:17):
like as a country, we're making progress. But what a
lot of people don't know is that this was a
hard one road and we it was uphill for a
lot of the ways. And that's why we're still talking
about Lenny Bruce. Yeah, that's really more than any comedy
bit he did, any you know, any of those bits
which were wonderful. But I think that's the reason, you know,
(28:41):
he's number three on the Rolling Stones Greatest Comedians of
All Time or something like that, is that's the reason. Well,
and there's that rm lyric and the end of the
world as we know it. Lenny Bruce is not afraid,
and I think that's a very important way of looking
at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did
not give a fuck about what what what was going
to happen to him as far as the law was concerned.
(29:03):
And that's why I think maybe overstated the case at
the top of the show about comedians as truth tellers,
and maybe it's not something they're intending to do at
the time. Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's
because he thinks it's funny. But removed from the time,
and you know, with his tragic end and all of
this court case and all these court cases, you can't
help but think that he was kind of paving the
way for this kind of free speech and being able
(29:25):
to say whatever is on your mind and not be
persecuted for I think that's what I think you encapsulated
it very well. They're wayne because also he's saying things
that everybody knows but no one is saying in public.
You know that the hypocrisy of it all, like like
we've never heard these words and speaking of words, hey
(29:48):
seven in particular, right, Holy no, No, this is just
kind of off to the side for us. But at
this point in the interview things are really heat. No,
this is going well too hot. Hot. Mike's only not
a hot mike on this particular installment because due to
a technical difficulty, my mike was not properly on, So
(30:08):
you're hearing my voice through Ben's mike or an adjacent mike.
But we assure you for part two of this series,
my mike will be on and we thought this interview
was fantastic enough that we wanted to preserve it for posterity,
So thank you for checking this out. This is a
rare two parter for us. Have we ever done a
concurrent two party now this is a first for us.
(30:30):
Then we're very excited and we hope that you tune
in for the second part of this series, wherein we
explore the story of another controversial comedian whose case eventually
went all the way to the Supreme Court. I can't wait.
In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer
Paul Decant guest super producer Paul decan are super producer
(30:53):
in spirit, Casey Pegraham, He's always with us with I
Thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'd like to
thank Eaves, Jeff cop and Christopher hasiotis our crack team
of research associates. We of course would like to thank
Wayne Fetterman, but you'll hear us do that plenty in
the second episode. Uh and no, you know what, man,
Thank you, yeah man, thank you did
Before we get started, folks, it's important to know that
this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may
not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've
got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be
the episode for them. We thought about censoring it, but
we decided we couldn't, not in good faith, because this
(00:20):
episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope
you enjoy. And one additional note, we had a little
bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of this episode,
this first part of our two part series. Due to
this technical difficulty, Noels Mike is actually not on for
the duration of the first episode or for most of it. However,
(00:43):
we believe that this interview was important enough and enjoyable
enough and fantastic enough that we wanted to salvage it
and play it out in full and hopefully I didn't
say too much. Yea, welcome to the show, ridiculous historians,
(01:24):
we have something very special for you today. Now we
get our yucks, and we get our go fas and
our chuckles occasionally when you say no, that's how we
referred to them. But we have rarely talked about the
profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy and
(01:44):
comedy is commentary right now, like way way back in
the day in Western Europe, even the jester was the
only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.
It's a profession of truth telling, Ben, which is your name,
and it's evolved over time and it's become an important
source of satire and social commentary. And it's these comedians
(02:04):
that are able to say things that are needed to
help society, like move forward into help change laws and
change perspectives. And that is no exception for the two
incredible comics we're talking about today. But we're not doing
it alone our way back right, that's right, Well, we
are joined, of course, as always with our super producer.
We've got Paul deck In filling in for Casey Pegraham today.
(02:25):
Make sure you knock out those sound cues, Paul. But
we did not come alone into this phrae of comics
versus the law. We came with an expert. We would
like to introduce you, fellow ridiculous historians, to demand the
myth legend. Wayne Fetterman, thank you, thank you for calling
(02:48):
me a myth. What does it mean to be a myth?
Does that mean you don't exist. That means I don't exist.
If you've watched television over the last several ever, yeah,
mean you have seen this man and everything from the
X Files. I saw you in an episode of Baywatch,
which was very impressive. Are Dean Weinstock and Curb Enthusiasm,
(03:09):
And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting Julia
Louis Dreyfuss so that he would have a wire removed
from his backyard. And the meeting didn't go well, and
you refuse to have the wire removed. What is your deal?
What was that line? What was that line? And that
and that When we say you call that a meeting,
I call that one of the most horror just a
horrible moment in my life. Yes, that was That was amazing. Also,
(03:32):
just before we continue with my credits, because that's gonna
be the best part of the show. Um, you know,
none of those lines are written, so every it's just
you have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen
in that scene, and we do it, and we do it,
and then we'll do it a few times and then
Larry will go more of that, less of that, more
of this that's funny. And so every line you hear
(03:53):
me say on that show is something I wrote at
the moment. That's even that's incredible. And I have to ask,
is to peep behind the curtain? Is a pedantic number
of takes? Or is it? Is it pretty much like
let's do it a couple of let's do it one
more time. It seems like Larry would be more laid back,
like be a little more like a brief emotional direction
or something. What's the scoop? Well, that's a good question
(04:14):
for that was I mean, this was early on. That's
like the sixth episode of the show, so they were
still kind of figuring out their technique at that point,
and a guy named Larry Charles was directing it. But
just basically Larry David like, yeah, that's that's close enough.
Let's go on to the next thing. Like it wasn't.
It wasn't like, oh, this moment has to be perfect,
(04:35):
and so yeah, so it wasn't a lot of texts.
Although I will say this, and this is gonna sound
like I'm bragging, but I'm not. It's just that Larry
sometimes gets like these giggle fits. And so the next
time I did the show where I had to hug
him and he breaks my glasses and I'm like, no problem,
I'll just send you an invoice. That's right. Um. He
kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in my like,
(04:58):
I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy. Is sort
of with the angle of that dude, uh that He
just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where he
had to apologize to the crew for pushing the shoot back.
So that's great, I mean, oh my god. I just
want to say I wish Larry David was my dad.
I've said that many times. I don't know. I didn't
have a very good relationship with my dad, so maybe
(05:19):
that's being informed by that. But Larry David just strikes
me as like the perfect curmudgeon. But he also seems
like he'd be pretty cool to work with and pretty
easy to get. You want a dad his multimillionaire Yeah,
I guess, you know, and and and just makes great observations,
you know what. Uh No, I I agree. I would
love it if he were your dad, because then I
could just come over. But I wouldn't it wouldn't have
(05:41):
to be a forever thing. I could leave, but let
us let let us continue just a little bit, Wayne
with some more of some more of these credentials. Uh,
some people may not know that you are a professor
at the University of Southern California. Correct, that is correct?
I am officially, I mean I'm a professor, that's the
(06:02):
right word. But I'm an adjunct professor. Do you know
what that means? Does that mean not tenured? Does that
mean you don't have an office and all of those things? Correct?
Whatever you think? I mean, it's it basically means not
a real professors. What it means it means I don't
have like a master's or a PhD or something like that.
But just are you teaching the history of stand up?
(06:22):
Is that your specialty in both the history of stand
up and a performance class combined? And it's advanced, it's
you have to take another stand up class even to
get to Professor Vetterman. Well, yeah, so if we were
to enroll, we would have to start start at level one.
Got pre rex I have And not only do you
(06:44):
teach these classes, you also have a brand new podcast
on the Podglomerate network, All the History of stand Up,
which is a surprise surprise, is about the history of
standard Yeah, it's not a it's not a misdirect. It's
not like, oh my god, we're just gonna be talking about,
you know, youth culture and um ra monrovia. That's how
(07:05):
good I am at ad libbing. I can't quite get
a word out. But you never know, we're gonna tap
some of your your knowledge on the subject today for
this episode. Course, that's why I'm here. Before we continue,
I do want to say I specifically enjoyed the episode
on the rise of stand up or what we perceive
as modern stand up through the Vaudeville era, and thank you, Yeah,
(07:27):
thank you. I learned a lot. I'm going to be
insufferable at parties for the next few weeks. You want
to set the stage a little bit with just like
I think that the comics were talking about today obviously
benefited from and you mentioned at the top of the show, Ben,
the idea of stand up as truth telling and this
notion of the vaud what is it called the performance
of one performance in one one? Will you talk a
little bit about that way, like just this conceptslute Absolutely,
(07:49):
it's um just so you know, I know you you
hold these comedians up as these truth tellers and on
the vanguard of social change, and there is an element
of comedy that is that there's also a whole another sea,
a whole ocean of comedy that isn't that that's just
making people laugh, and in a way that's a wonderful experience.
(08:11):
So yeah, so I just I know you, I feel
like comedians, some kinds get elevated as these truth tellers.
Is like they're really just trying to get people to laugh,
is there is their main goal? Is their main goal?
So no, if you go back to Vault, it's interesting
you should you picked up on that episode because we
talked about this guy, Frank Fay, that a lot of
people look to is the the architect of the modern
(08:34):
what we consider the modern stand up. It was kind
of like a wise guy, smart guy in a suit,
who does you know, no baggy pants, no weird hats,
doesn't you know, crazy big tie or anything like that
that screams, Hey, I'm a comedian, you know, just a
got a sharp talking guy. And from that, this guy's
name is Frank Fay. And another time you should do
(08:55):
an episode, you guys should do one Frank Fay because
he's a really interesting guy because he not only creates this,
but is this. He's sort of anti Semitic, and he's
he supports the Nazis and it's just a crazy dude.
He's very insufferable man. And uh, it's just like that,
this guy. I love that. In fact, this is the
(09:15):
guy that sort of started the whole thing. It's perfect.
It's perfect. So anyway, Vaudeville was family entertainment and the
height of audeville, like what today would be getting a
Netflix special, was to perform at a theater in New
York called the Palace, which was right off Broadway. No, no,
it's a little higher than forty eight. And so that
(09:36):
was like the goal of every comedian, and Frank Faye
was the MC at the Palace. They used to not
even have mcs. They used to just put up a
placard or like a big card and say this is
you know, thinks Mules and then this act would come
out and they do it. So he would like in
between the acts, he like kibbits with the crowd, and
eventually that became his act. And by performing in one
(09:57):
usually there was a curtain and in one was the
very front of the stage. That meant there was you
didn't need anything behind you. So a lot of times
comedians were needed because they would be setting up an
acrobac act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while
the stand up was just doing his his stick. So
that was called being in one. And now it means
(10:18):
sort of like you are alone out there. It's it's
it's a literal and figurative statement, if I'm not mistaken.
So that's that makes sense though from from the behind
the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air, right,
You would want the right to have something to look at. Yep, yep, exactly.
You don't want a big, deep stage behind you when
(10:39):
all you really need is it just your voice. And
then microphones sort of changed that a little bit, you know,
and that was more than nightclub era. And that's when
they added something called alcohol to the equation. And is
that what is that kind of moved more from vaudeville
into like burlesque where becomes less of a family affair.
Is that when no burlesque ray and rank concurrent to vaudeville,
(11:02):
which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind
of looked down upon and mainly men went to burlesque shows,
not a lot of women, and it was sort of
like there might be a stripper or a you know,
a very fan dancer, so you know, like that. And
and the comedians in burlesque were way more broad and
because you had you know, there was just guys there
(11:22):
in the you know, degenerates in the middle of the
afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard to
do very subtle kind of you know, Jack Benny hyper
humor to these guys. So burlesque grand concurrent to vaudeville,
but was like considered a low form of entertainment. And
(11:45):
when when we were originally talking before doing this episode, uh,
we had asked you to share with our listeners some
stories about what we would what we would call notorious
cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this
up now because when we I believe you had said
(12:09):
earlier in the history of stand up that the term
stand up comic didn't really come about until the late
forties maybe or so correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast.
This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought
my podcast would be for like I don't know, hundred
and eighty people who ridged in the history of this,
(12:29):
so um, yeah, they didn't have a term for like
when Milton Burrow was doing stand up and we have
a clip of Burl at the Winter Garden Theater doing
basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a joke
about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three waiters
for each table. Wanted to give you the check and
two to revive you. So, you know, just like a joke,
just you know, jokes. And he was doing that stuff
(12:51):
before there was even the term stand up, so they
called him either monologists or comics or something like that.
But then eventually, like kers wanted to know what you
were getting, Like they would book a variety show and
they would need a singer and you know, maybe a juggler,
and then a comic and then go what kind of
comedy does he stand up? Does he need music? Does
(13:12):
he you know? And so it was a specific kind
of comic who just used their voice. I guess one
of the big questions we have, like the two Knowle's
exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with vaudeville but being
considered a lower form of entertainment, where did these stand
up comics fit in Were they controversial, were they just
(13:36):
something new and strange? Was it a slow evolution or
a sudden one. That's a good question. Um, I you know,
I think people always you know, I just think it's
a human need to want to laugh. Like, especially in
a group of people. It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know,
elevated moment when you're all laughing at the same time.
(13:58):
I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called
Sullivan's Travels, um, but it's just a great movie about
this Broadway producer who, like it, gets burnt out on
Hollywood and goes to see what, you know, what is
it pretends he's like a bum and and one of
the great moments is him just watching these these cartoons
with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're all laughing together,
(14:22):
and it's like, oh, there's value in this. There's a value.
It's a beautiful movie. And uh, I know that's a
little sidetrack, but my point fantastic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's uh it's like, well, I don't know anyway, Joel McCrae,
Veronica Lake, I'm gonna name the whole cast people no
one's ever heard of um, I'm gonna keep going. So
(14:43):
it's I don't know, I I guess you know, there's
always been funny, but like you said earlier, there's court
gestures and you know even uh, you know, early on
in vaudeville there was like funny comedian singer types, which
is like an Eddie Cantor or something like that, and
then they were just like, oh, people just like the
comedy part, and so people specialized in that, and then
(15:06):
that became very much more kind of like an opening
act for like a singer like I was just listening to,
Like George Carlin would open for this singer named Oliver
in the sixties, and Woody Allen opened for Barbara streisand
and then later for Jim Crocey. So it was like
a great way to sort of settle the crowd, get
some laughs, and then you know, get the headliner up there,
(15:28):
unless it was and eventually the comics became the headline. Well.
And it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right,
like you don't really need a whole lot of props
or you know, back line or like equipment or anything.
It's just a person in their brain and their mouth
and acrophone microphone, so that a d That's why musicians
like want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't
(15:49):
have to deal with this road crew guy and this
dude setting up my guitar and not tuning it right.
And like even to be in a band is a
lot of stuff. Like we just get on an airplane
or get in a are and go to the gig
and then go back. It's it is. I think it's
the simplest, right, there's really I mean, I'm gonna throw
that out to you guys. Can you think of anything
(16:10):
well you need to bring less physical attributes to the
to the act. No, not really. Maybe podcasting, I mean
they usually provide the mix for us to We're actually
doing our first tour next week, so we'll we'll report
back and let's how that goes. But you're going out
on the road. I love it. We're hitting the road. Wayne,
wish us luck. But listen, let's get let's get to
(16:30):
let's get to the let let's get to the headline.
So the headline. Alright, sorry, I'm not knowledge. I'm sorry,
he Professor Federman. Come on, let's take it easier. Um,
So we're talking about the term stand up not really
coming around until the forties. But around the fifties you
got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the
scene and he gets his start um, you know, doing
(16:52):
the same thing that a lot of comedians would do,
where he would be on what was it the Steve
Allen Show. I believe he was on pretty early in
his career. Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's
he's like this legend in a way because of what
he did basically in a like a four or five
year period. And I'll explain it to you. He really
he he was in the war in the forties. His
(17:13):
mom was in show basess, she was kind of a comic.
He does a talent show and he gets you know,
does a bunch of impressions, and then he's on Broadway
Open House and Night and then he's not really on
television at all. In for most of the fifties, he's
basically remember we're talking about burlesque and strip clubs. He
was basically comedian. The worked in strip clubs was his thing,
(17:34):
and which was this brutal existence, but he was you know,
he fell in love with this stripper named Honey and he, uh,
you know, he just could kind of develop this act
trying to entertain these guys and was just kicking around,
couldn't get anything go and try to make these short
films and wrote scripts in Hollywood and nothing, couldn't get
any traction, really, and then finally the when Mort Saul
(17:59):
came along long and opened up stand up to being
a little more about commentary, which you guys mentioned earlier.
This inspired Lenny Bruce. And also there was a yet
sort of a I don't know what's amused is the
word I would use named Joe antsis this is famous
comedy history who kind of developed Lenny Bruce's jazz talking
(18:23):
jive style. I don't know if you've heard his records,
but it's sometimes it's hard to even to connect with
them because the language is, like, you know, so up
tusive times. Ladies and gentlemen, the Balladium Theater, body present
Semedica's fastest rise young comedian and Dean of Satire, Mr
Frank Dell. Good Evening, ladies and gentlemen, and certainly iced
(18:44):
to be here at the most famous theater in the world,
the wonderful Palladium Theater. Well, folks, I just got back
from lost wages, nava funny thing about working lost wages, folks.
The way to make a lot of money there when
you get off the plane, walk one into the propeller
(19:07):
and then into the motel jokes, the army jokes, the impressions, ten, twelve,
fifteen minutes and he's bombing nothing but not left one.
Now he goes into the dying jokes about faults. I
wasn't born having I'm short dying here ha, a lot
(19:29):
of different ways to die, and blah blah blah. Now
he starts with putting the audience down. Well, freddie, freddie boy,
I see it's a little squares ville, the little squares
ville for the first show, the greatest in them all,
old baby crack worm. Let's go to show business, heaven.
(19:49):
How about it? My show walks off? I guess a
little courtesy employs two people. Sounds like citizen King harrible.
And again this is this is later in his career.
This is not in the fifty one or fIF He
only started recording later. And that recording is a perfect
example of it. If just this, you know, he would
do bits, but he had kind of a hey Man style,
(20:10):
and he was very much you know, into amphetamines and
pot and you know, he was he had a relationship
with with drugs, let's let's put it that way, ultimately
killed him. And then uh, then he puts you know,
he puts out this album and that came out in
nineteen fifty nine, and he was known for using dirty
(20:31):
words and became what known as a sick comedian. There
was a great article in Time magazine about these sick
comedians who would do just like one of his jokes
would be like, uh, the problem with my marriage was
my mother in law because I slept with her too
many times or something like, you know, just like we're
like people would be like, what is what is he?
What did I hear? You know that kind of thing.
(20:53):
And so, guess what. He starts making fun. One of
his big bits is called Religion Incorporated. And he starts
doing this bit, and you know a lot of cops
are irish, you know at that time, and so and
just you know, the d A s and stuff. So
he gets arrested in San Francisco and then it becomes
known as this comedian who's being censored, and sot of
(21:16):
that elevated him a little bit. And then he gets
arrested in Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know,
believe it or not, George Carlin is at that show
also gets arrested just because he won't show the cops
his I d and and Lenny Bridge is like, why
did they arrest you because I wouldn't show my idea
because you're a schmuck, you know that kind of thing.
(21:43):
But the big case happened in New York at the
cafe Wah wah. I think it's yehause he's like fed
up with these puritanical l A cops or southern California cops,
which is right. So he thinks New York is gonna
be way more progressive. And that's in Greenwich Village, right, yes, yes,
this is the scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and Dylan
(22:05):
is there, and it's like it's, uh, you know, it's
very couldn't be more progressive because I mean outside of
maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something, I mean, it is the
centerpiece of progressive and so he's like, Okay, I'm this
is where I'm going to do it. And of course,
you know, the Irish New York cops they arrest him,
and that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for
(22:28):
his entire life, and it wasn't until I believe two
thousand three when Governor Pataki of New York overturned or
gave him clemency or whatever. He pardoned him and instruct
that from the thing. So it was like he was
I know, it sounds impossible to believe that adult. No
adult complained. No, there wasn't one patron. I love using
(22:49):
that word patron at these clubs. It was like, I
can't like they knew the sick humor and Lenny Bruce
is what we want to see. This is what we
want to hear and to expand our minds a little bit.
We might be a f we can handle it. So
it was just just try to think of that, you
guys of a time not that long ago. I mean,
(23:10):
you know, I was born in fifty nine, so it's
not it's in my lifetime. When police would come into
an establishment and arrest somebody for using language that's insane.
They were also undercover police, is that correct, Like they
were there in playing clothes or something. Yes. Sometimes, I
mean the one in Chicago is hilarious, and because there's
(23:31):
a recording of it and you could he's talking about
the cop. He sees them over there, and then he
says something and then the cop literally says okay, folks
shows over, you know, like the cliche and uh, and
he gets arrested and then they just shut it down. Well,
and here's the thing too, they actually this was on
the book. So in New York when he got arrested,
it was because of something called Penal Code eleven forty
(23:54):
dash a. And this is this is the language of this.
It prohibited something they referred to as quote obscene, indecent, immoral,
and impure dram I assume that means drama, play, exhibition,
and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the
morals of youth and others. For you, and then you know,
(24:14):
this is so broad. This is such incredibly broad language,
the corruption of youth and others. And it's like, who's
asking for this? But it's also it's it's also part
of the hypocrisy of the American legal system. That's an
historic thing. It goes to any form of language or
communication like the maple thor photographs yea, or like the
(24:35):
James Joyce ulysses which went all went to the courts
on the basis of being what pornography and the ultimate
ruling was I know it when I see it, right, right,
So this is a very slipper. Now again, I want
to talk about all of these issues, including motion pictures
what's going on with them as well. But the point
you're making is youth and others. It was that the
(24:58):
language was that the youth and other Yeah, exactly, the
corruption of the morals of youth and others. So what
does this even mean? Who's asking for this? Where is
this coming from? What? What are your what are your thoughts?
I will tell you where it's coming from. There used
to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying,
in this community, we don't want a certain kind of
(25:20):
film here, and we don't want a certain kind of
entertainment here, and there was it was a lot of
it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would
have their own board which would decide would rate movies
and get the Catholic board didness let your movie come
into your town? It didn't come into your town, and
(25:40):
that you know, and that's how the politicians state in power,
and that's how these penal codes, including the one you
just read eleven. What was the number? A. Yeah, I
always think of eleven forty B. But I always get
that wrong. I always get that wrong. Now that's fair.
I'm not teaching. That's why I'm not at an Ivy
League school right there. So so that's that's going on
(26:03):
in the United States. Even when I was a KIG,
there was something called the Catholic League that would like, no,
you can't have this coming, this movie come in here.
So that only changed really in nine eight when they
started the movie rating system. So before then, I don't know.
This is incredible just it's a sidebar, but I think
it's interesting. It's a few years, maybe eight years after
(26:25):
Lenny Bruce gets arrested. A lot is that, you know,
they put in these rating systems. So now the first
movie to ever be right to win Best Picture is
a g rated movie, the only one a g rated
movie called Oliver. The next year, sixty nine, an X
rated movie wins Best Picture. What was it? That's um,
you know, John Boyd, everybody's talking midnight, which is it's
(26:50):
now been rerated. It's been rerated. Lenny Bruce in the
movie Lenny So full Circle. It's all one big thing.
It's all. But I'm just saying that sort of opened
up the world for a lot of movie goers, especially
in small towns in America, because and now they could
see a movie that the Catholic League didn't deem, you know,
(27:11):
immoral for this community, these community standards. So anyway, I
just want to give an overall view of like why
these penal codes were on the books. It just it
just gave them a legal reason to shut down a
movie or something like that. Oh and it's crazy and
we take all that for granted these days. I mean
it's so easy to uh not appreciate the fact that
I can go watch anything I want on Netflix or
(27:33):
you know, man in the in the theater, that I
can see dirty stuff. Well, people still do slide back
into moral panics on a cyclical basis here. Oh so,
for example, we will see the same kind of moral
panic of U of rock music polluting the hearts and
minds of young children because the beat is a little
(27:56):
too Bouncy's right. I mean there was even all that
Tipper Gore stuff with the parental advisory stickers and like
rap music and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So
absolutely it seems like that stuff goes in cycles, but
ultimately I feel like as a as a culture, we're
pretty free still to explore whatever you know, tickles our fancy.
As far as arts concerned, we are making progress, especially
(28:17):
like as a country, we're making progress. But what a
lot of people don't know is that this was a
hard one road and we it was uphill for a
lot of the ways. And that's why we're still talking
about Lenny Bruce. Yeah, that's really more than any comedy
bit he did, any you know, any of those bits
which were wonderful. But I think that's the reason, you know,
(28:41):
he's number three on the Rolling Stones Greatest Comedians of
All Time or something like that, is that's the reason. Well,
and there's that rm lyric and the end of the
world as we know it. Lenny Bruce is not afraid,
and I think that's a very important way of looking
at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did
not give a fuck about what what what was going
to happen to him as far as the law was concerned.
(29:03):
And that's why I think maybe overstated the case at
the top of the show about comedians as truth tellers,
and maybe it's not something they're intending to do at
the time. Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's
because he thinks it's funny. But removed from the time,
and you know, with his tragic end and all of
this court case and all these court cases, you can't
help but think that he was kind of paving the
way for this kind of free speech and being able
(29:25):
to say whatever is on your mind and not be
persecuted for I think that's what I think you encapsulated
it very well. They're wayne because also he's saying things
that everybody knows but no one is saying in public.
You know that the hypocrisy of it all, like like
we've never heard these words and speaking of words, hey
(29:48):
seven in particular, right, Holy no, No, this is just
kind of off to the side for us. But at
this point in the interview things are really heat. No,
this is going well too hot. Hot. Mike's only not
a hot mike on this particular installment because due to
a technical difficulty, my mike was not properly on, So
(30:08):
you're hearing my voice through Ben's mike or an adjacent mike.
But we assure you for part two of this series,
my mike will be on and we thought this interview
was fantastic enough that we wanted to preserve it for posterity,
So thank you for checking this out. This is a
rare two parter for us. Have we ever done a
concurrent two party now this is a first for us.
(30:30):
Then we're very excited and we hope that you tune
in for the second part of this series, wherein we
explore the story of another controversial comedian whose case eventually
went all the way to the Supreme Court. I can't wait.
In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer
Paul Decant guest super producer Paul decan are super producer
(30:53):
in spirit, Casey Pegraham, He's always with us with I
Thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'd like to
thank Eaves, Jeff cop and Christopher hasiotis our crack team
of research associates. We of course would like to thank
Wayne Fetterman, but you'll hear us do that plenty in
the second episode. Uh and no, you know what, man,
Thank you, yeah man, thank you did
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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