October 24, 2023 • 31 mins
If you've ever looked at a bush and thought "this would be way cooler if it was shaped like a rabbit," then you're part of a long line of topiary enthusiasts throughout history. This ancient art of shaping, training and trimming plants and trees into fanicful, decorative shapes dates back into antiquity. In this special two-part series, Ben, Noel and Casey dive into the origin story of twisting, tangled origin story of topiary (and how it's way weird than you might think).
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's have a very special shout out
to our favorite returning guest. What are the core members
of the Ridiculous History family, the legendary super producer mister
Casey Pegrum.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Glad to be back with you guys again.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Good to have.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We were just talking about like marvelification of cinema and
like we've got the Ridiculous Cinematic Universe universe coming in.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, dude, you're the core Universe returning You know what
I mean? This is so I've been your Noel. We've
got cases. Yeah, we've got a shout out to Max.
White Pants Williams off On Adventures and the.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Pole are still clean. I hope they're still pristine.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I hope he keeps them under glass And you know, no,
I don't. I think I mentioned it, but I didn't
want to go too hard on because I didn't want
him to feel eclipsed. But I also have a pair
of white pants for a wedding and I straight up
did not wear them because I was like, it's gonna
be a long, hot Tuscan.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Afternoon in Tuscan. That's you know what, wearing a white
suit in Tuscany is very on brand. I think that's
that's cool. It's very Godfather too. I guess there is.
There are photographs of me that exists out there in
the world somewhere of me as a small child wearing
a white suit to a wedding as well. So while
I'm not with you contemporarily, young me is on board.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I've got a I got a sear sucker. I call
it my Televan suit Casey saw me wear it a
few times back in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
You remember what I'm talking about. Yeah, how does one
suck a sere? Ben?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, you can suck up to a seer by following
a cult, right, But one thing that stands out when
you Okay, my very close friend who had this waying
in Italy, he weddings can be stressful, they're beautiful, right.
I was there just to basically drop a hot three minutes,
do my tight three minutes there. And when I got
(02:29):
there first time in Italy, I looked around and this
is my buddy, Corey Oliver. We all know him, and
and I was like, Corey dang man, all those paintings
that Olive Gardener are accurate. This is what it looks like.
And he said, don't say that, dude, I've worked so
hard on this. But I looked at it and you
look out across you know, this like wine country landscape,
(02:52):
and it seems that all of the trees and the
shrubs are just so. They seem some unnaturally manicure. Italy
runs Topiery, at least in a natural sense. And I
think it's something that you know, we're gonna we're gonna
spend some time on this, No, because our research associates
(03:13):
are also pretty excited about this. Did you guys have
like Topiery growing up? Did you go through hedge mazes
anything like that?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Well, I mean, I don't think we are of the
echelon of society that has Topieri. I don't know about y'all.
My upbringing was somewhat middle middle class at best. Topieri
seem the kind of thing that go in like Tuscan
gardens or like you know, builtmore estate. Don't they have
Topieri's at I'm pretty sure they do, or like you know,
(03:43):
the Overlook hotel in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was gonna say, that's my association as reading the
shining the novel and reading about the topiery animals coming
to life and all that.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So yeah, which they didn't really play up in the
movie at all. There's no Yeah, Edward Scissorhands topierism, get
the ariaization. Yes for the.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Topiery enthusiast in the crowd, a huge contingent of ridiculous historians.
The time has come. I remember many years ago, I
would like we we probably all had to do a
little bit of landscaping, housework stuff growing up. And Uh,
one of the things that I don't want to say,
got in trouble for I got reprimanded for was we
(04:25):
had one of those electric hedge trimmer clippery things. I
did some topiery and then and then my mother, who
has passed, uh saved me and was like, you messed
up this shrub. So now while you're here, go ahead
(04:46):
and do something with the rest of them.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
And so continuity is key. There we go. She she
she just defied me. But uh, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It turns out topiery as an art has a craft,
does a pursuit is pretty ancient. We in the modern
day have no idea who looked at a shrub and said, Nah,
I'm gonna jush it up a little.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, Topierre is kind of like the balloon animals of gardening,
you know, in a lot of ways. And it's older
than you'd think, which I guess makes sense because you know,
as long as there have been people walking the earth,
I think there have probably been some form of bush. Yeah,
they predate humans, but I think it's probably right. And
(05:32):
if there's one thing that humans have always been known
for us having imagination. You look at a thing, you say,
you know what, what if that thing were another thing?
And how can I make that happen? Maybe with this
rock or just by you know, tearing away branches with
my rough hewn you know ape Hans.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, we know Romans were fans of topiiization and they
seem to have picked it up like so many other
things from the Greeks of Old, and then the ancient
Egyptians were also snipping away at topiary. We're getting a
lot of this from a great article on country life
(06:10):
Topiary the ancient art of transforming nature into cubes, pyramids,
and peacocks. So that's a we always love a shout
out to a weird headline.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Oh, I mean, I think The key here is it
was It's always been a sign of opulence, because like,
who has the time, you know, or the resources to
do something so borderline frivolous and absurd. You know that
requires a lot of care and maintenance. I mean I
could barely get a haircut on a regular basis, let
(06:41):
alone keep my topiary from becoming overgrown.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've been wearing a hat all week because I haven't
made the time to shower.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, people are out here change in the world.
I fell asleep trying to put on a pair of
pants one time.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I love the notion though, that wearing a hat is
somehow a good cover up for not showering.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
It is also we're recording remotely, so no one can
smell me. Everybody pretend I smell amazing, but I can
tell you.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
From experience, you do smell amazing. Ben is that lavender?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
He is Laughingteric Casey follow my only fans, So, yeah,
you're raising excellent point here.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I will put topiary.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It reminds me of an earlier episode we did on
Garden Hermits. You know, Topier is like a step beneath
Garden Hermits, beneath paying.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
A human otherwise homeless guy.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, it'd be a lawn exhibit. But we know that
back in as far as one hundred CE. Plenty the
Younger talked about his garden in his country via or
villa because to your point, Nol, it is something that
pretty wealthy people tend to do in his society. And
(07:52):
he was like, my garden and my country house, I've
got this whole slope adorned with figures of animals in bah.
I've got a lawn that's enclosed with evergreen shaped in
a variety of forms. It was like his version of cribs.
That's why he was describing this.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I think animals in box would be a good name
for a band. I don't know why, it just it
just hit me that way. It's true, Pliny the Younger.
I guess it related to Planny of the Elder, or
they were just trying to keep our planey straight. They're
trying to franchise it. Got it, got it, got it,
got it well. He describes cypress trees that were cut
into the shape of figures, letters, even like messages, inscriptions,
(08:36):
certain kind of things you might see carved in marble,
like monuments like obelisks, and such again in this Tuscan villa,
and he credited a guy named Guy, a guy named
Gaius Guias Madius Calvinus, for introducing this whole concept's art
form to none other than Julius Caesar, who you know,
(08:57):
when you're Caesar, when you're king, and youths your fancy,
it's going to strike the fancy of the whole you know, empire.
And that's exactly what happened. It became quite popular across
the Roman Empire, right.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Because, as we see over and over again in human societies,
when the people at up top do something, even if
it's kind of dumb, then other people who aspire to
be at that echelon will mimic it, will emulate it.
I think another good, probably one of the most extreme
examples of that, is the origin of Castillan Spanish, where
(09:31):
you know, the ruler had a lisp, so everybody else
was like, oh yeah, poor stupleto and that's a lot
of yeah, yeah yeah. Luckily, that's no longer the thing.
If you go to Spain today, you'll see that most
most Spanish nationals, as younger generations come to the forefront,
(09:53):
they are less likely to have that accent.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That is interesting. I did not know that story, Ben.
That's super cool and random. History is full of this
kind of stuff. So the the art of topiery, I
think it's just topiery. I think that's its own plural
or whatever. Or yeah, topiery is the thing, and the
art of topiery is the thing that you do. It
(10:16):
was super popular under Caesar. But much like early flush
toilet technology, when the Roman Empire fell, so did topiery
fell out of fashion at the very least, because largely,
you know, it was tough times. It was like a
time of struggle, when gardening and farming was more about
(10:40):
being functional than it was about being decorative. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh, and also I should say, no, Casey fell a
ridiculous historians, just in the interest of transparency. The story
about the medieval king speaking with a lisp has been well,
people back and forth over whether that's a myth. So
we lest we unfairly characterize medieval Spanish kings as you know,
(11:10):
their versions of Mike Tyson's Like any aesthetic, we see
a wax and a wane, a rise and a fall cyclically,
and to your point, noll As, constant infighting in these
different empires made cities increasingly resort to big walls for security.
(11:35):
There was less and less space for gardens, even if
you were the people at the tippidy Top the Grand
pubas so the topieri's ornamental nature had to shift. Now
it had to have a function. You needed to have
fruit trees. You need to have things that could produce
food in case of you know, another siege, which was
(11:59):
a constant reality of the time.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah. So also plants needed to be quite hearty, you know,
and not to be delicate, dainty little elephant shaped bushes,
you know, things that would stand under serious weather conditions
or as you put it, been like, you know, certain
wartime conditions, even although probably no amount of heartiness is
gonna you know, stand up to a you know, scorched
(12:23):
earth kind of campaign, right exactly. Yeah, this is not
the Uh, this is not the place for the precious lilies,
as we found actually, uh, because plants needed light and space,
and in my opinion, they need some kind gardening to
really thrive. You know, I'm a fan.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think we're all fans of talking to plants just
for the fundzies.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Because of all these things plants needed, and because of
these wartime situations that seem to occur constantly. There wasn't
a lot of gardening of any kind in Europe for
several centuries. Gardening went from being a privilege of the
wealthy and a workingman's industry to a thing that didn't
(13:08):
really happen. It became anachronistic until Charlemagne, our friend from
the breakfast.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Club Charleman the gut mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Until Charlemagne in his younger days and eight hundred CE
brought that gardening.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I knew it was only a matter of time. Yeah,
I love so so funny like Charlemagne. I guess Casey,
if we could put you on the case, that is
like a French portmanteau. I guess that means Charles the Great.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Well, it's it's from the French form of the Latin
adjective magnus, meaning great. So yeah, it's like if you
in French if you said manifique. So it's sort of
like a yeah, like a signific sense great.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But it's also like saying vin number or ATM machine.
Then it's like Charles the Great, the Great.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a little redundant. Casey, oh the
case Casey on the case and bump bump. He is
very much interested in this functional type of farming, you know,
which is interesting. You think he maybe would have brought
back Topieri's right away, but he's more interested in herb
gardens and fruit trees and bringing this stuff back to France.
(14:15):
Around a thousand a d. Monasteries followed suit and started,
you know, we know monasterias have a history also of
like you know, brewing beer and doing kind of more
bespoke kind of handcrafts and stuff like that. They started
cultivating herbs and flowers and little shrubs, a little shrubs
(14:37):
like the knights who say me, shrubbery, that's shrubbery.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And so after about one thousand a D or ce
whatever you prefer, when this stuff is happening in Europe,
we see that there are also these things called paradise
gardens in Spain and Sicily. And these are a little
bit different because they're not entirely functional, they're not sources
(15:03):
of food during sieges. They come from the Moorish occupation
because the Islamic culture controlled these parts of the world
during this time. And want to shout out to beyond
Bankies over who have a great article on the history
of Topiaries by Larry Hurley, who talks about this. There's
(15:25):
an interesting sort of contrast here, because, like you said,
the monasteries are growing herbs and flowers and shrubs, you know,
and they're using these things for food. They're using them
to flavor different beverages that they are creating to make
dyes for the illustrated manuscripts. The Moorish paradise gardens are saying, hey,
(15:48):
let's just have a nice landscape to look at, you
know what I mean, Let's take in the sunset and
watch the butterflies flit about. So the thing it was
cool everybody at some in some way. Both of these
pursuits led to green space. And now we have to
introduce the Anglo Saxons and the Vikings, who are you know,
(16:12):
mainly known for the pillaging.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
The plundering, the scorching of the earth, not necessarily for
their love of gardening. Yeah, it's interesting. It does, however,
look to be the case that Norman Nobles actually reintroduced
concepts of topiary, perhaps inspired by things they had seen
(16:37):
in their travels Islamic gardens for example, in Sicily. You know,
some of these types of gardens enclosed plots that added
a little bit of privacy hedges kind of you know,
in castle courtyards and some of these monasteries. And this
is where the term I believe horticulture comes in, where
(16:59):
we have the term hordous conclusis. Well, it's a Harry
Potter spell, right, I think that's right. Which was it
was a practice I guess, of trimming hedges and topping
them with almost like the kind of thing you'd see
on the top of a Christmas tree, but with like standards,
you know, like the eagle or whatever it might be, right.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, exactly. And there was an increasing trend of sophistication
because now topiary is back, baby, we're going Greco Roman
with it. You would see more intricate cuts of shrubs.
In the late thirteen hundreds we saw the rise of
a topiery known as the astraw, and things like rosemary.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
This is interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
We'll talk a little bit about bonds eye at some point,
but shrubs like rosemary could be trained into these semi
uniform kind of standardized shapes, and you would do that
by giving them an exos elati basically iron frame that
has a couple of different hoops of decreasing.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Size and then that would kind of limit its growth
in a certain way to make it tick on that
shape on its own. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And this coincided too. Again, the Italian Renaissance occurs later,
and the Italian Renaissance is a bunch of people in
Italy going full fanboy, like beast mode fanboy for everything
they consider ancient rome. And part of that surprise surprise
was topiary.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
So the kind of template I guess for this type
of garden did really come out of Italy. Europe really
looked to that model for a lot of these decorative
gardens for several hundred years. These included these herb gardens.
These formed liquid to your point, been the kind of
(18:54):
restrained growth of these clipped herbs and these shrubs that
would form, you know, when looked at from above, these
really intricate geometric patterns. A lot of potted plants were happening.
There would be espallier trees. Is that a type of
a tree ben or is that a style.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
That's kind of the exoskeleton we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Oh, that's the word. That's cool. I learned something new today.
I learned several new things today. I try to learn
something new. Most days. I think we all do here
in ridiculous history world. But yeah, these kind of little accents.
And then also Casey to your point about the shining,
they didn't have spooky, you know, living topiary animals, but
(19:36):
they did have a pretty boss hedge maze, which is
a great, you know sequence in that film. I've never
personally walked a hedge maze or a corn maze for
that matter, have you all sounder? Just yeah, what's it like? Uh,
It's it's cool.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
They run the gamut because there are some that are
meant to be more away a while away the afternoon,
and so for some of those they might not always
be taller than human height. But then there are others
that are really intricate. There's one I want to visit.
You remember that book, The Codex.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That I love.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
The publisher of that, who is like a very old
Italian money guy, was also known for having the world's
largest hedge maze on his a state in Italy. And yeah,
he passed away. That's a flex. That's a very specific,
weird flex. We should probably have Miles and Jack back on.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
But but yeah, and then corn maze is you know,
a seasonal you can find them here in the southern US,
and those are those are kind of like I would
put them in the pantheon of a Tumnaal hangout, things
like hay rides, which you mentioned a previous episode, or
you know, outdoor haunted houses.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Question is the minotaur at the center of a corn
maze made of corn?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I don't believe if there is a minotaur, but it'd
be cool if they had like a minitar Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
If they had either scarecrow or straight up cow. I
do like that, just to get surprised a just scruntled cow,
you know. So yeah, what about you? Casey corn mazes
hedge maases.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I have not been to one.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I was looking actually at pumpkin patches here in Georgia,
and there is one that has some you know, a
tiny little cornd kind of thing nearby.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I think that's the one I went to with with
my family over the weekend. It's called Bert's Pumpkin Patch
and it's not on site, but I think there's a
corn maze adjacent. It's like a separate property. But they
do do a hay ride that has some very subtle,
not so subtle religious indoctrination coming from Animatronic pumpkins.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And our pal our pals Dylan Fagan uh was there
as well as Miranda Hawkins.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I want to say, yeah, so itwas a good time.
I spent way too much money on pumpkins. But my
house is looking very festive right now. Nice, you're a
pumpkin ear and please do carve. I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I love carving pumpkins, So this weekend.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So the Medicis who are known for doing some evil
stuff and also being big art patrons, and they're the
billionaires of their day. Basically they love flexes and so
people in Medici's social class and above are all about
keeping up with the other obscenely wealthy Joneses. They want
(22:35):
to always one up each other with the most expensive,
opulent displays of wealth, the biggest parties, the best art,
the nicest, most impressive buildings. Horticulture is no exception. You
will see things like the Villa Karachi right outside Florence,
completed around fourteen sixteen. It has all kinds of topiary spheres, porticos, temples, vosses, earns,
(23:01):
a bunch of animals, giant people, size things, men, women,
wild you know, famous people.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, I haven't really witnessed one of these. I'm you know,
you know what happens when you get older, you get
really into like pots and buying nice pots and pans
and sweaters and gardening. Like I just you know, I
never in a million years would have been like I
need a garden, but lo and behold, I spent way
too much money on landscaping my backyard and I love
it. It's not nothing like this, but it's just nice to have.
(23:31):
I don't know. I think it's maybe humanity's desire to
kind of control their surroundings or to in some way exert,
you know, their influence over like the earth or whatever.
And a lot of the stuff that we're getting to better,
that we're working through, it's all based around leisure time
and like, you know, the ability to do something just
because because it's nice, like the you know, let's watch
(23:53):
the butterflies and the and the topiary garden. But I
have not seen things like this in person. Have you
been a see like in your travels you would have
wandered through some topiary gardens.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and you can see. Actually, we are immensely
privileged to live in the fair metropolis of Atlanta, because
Atlanta is home to the Atlanta Botanical Garden.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
They have allis in Wonderland themed ones, don't they. Yeah
they I haven't been. Okay, it's a great it's a
week in date, you know, takes take day and.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
The kid and and I love going there as a group.
They have a lot of cool larger than life sculptures.
Of course, being you know, being that it is a garden,
it is seasonal, so check ahead. It's kind of like
the High Museum. They have rotating stuff that goes in
and out, and they have a lot of famous artists
(24:45):
that come through, uh who put their own spin on things.
But yeah, we can see the topiary now, I believe
what is it? It's mid October as we record.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We'll have to check. We'll check at the end and
we'll see what they've got going on. This might be
like when we decided to go to a Monster Truck rally.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, that was really really fine, except I did bring
my kid, who has some serious sensory overload issues. Monster
truck Rally not the best place for a kid like that,
but it was definitely an experience. It was also intensely hot,
and I forgot that there's no shade in those bleachers.
You're just like under the beating, you know, oppressive sun.
(25:25):
Just the scale of it too. Man, it was neat.
I'm glad I went. I don't think I'll ever go again,
but like I can, I can check.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I would go if it was a different time of year,
or if it was more convenient. But it's just it's
just cool to see.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
When you see a monster truck rally, what you're witnessing
is the two absolute opposite spectrums of human intelligence and
curiosity occurring simultaneously. Like imagine being smart enough to build
this huge stadium, being ingenious enough to not only invents
(26:00):
but invent these amazing cartoon cars, and then also being
human enough to say, well, now we should wreck them,
you know, hold my beer. That's that's humanity.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
It is.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So the Italian gardeners become a huge industry, right, Italian
topiery specialists, and they keep expanding to build these increasingly
bigger things, as the Medici type dudes are in an
opulence arms race.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
These are the same folks that were like patrons of
the arts, and they had some very refined tastes and
they did some amazing things, you know. They they were
they were patrons and benefactors of incredible artists. We probably
would not have would be able to enjoy the work
of some of these figures if it weren't for the
for the Mediciese. And they also were big fans of
(26:54):
flexing their wealth, you know, the world. And by the way, Ben,
the gardens that you mentioned were designed by another individual
that these folks, we could say, were you know, acting
as benefactors for the architect Leon Battista Alberti, who incorporated
some really elaborate like that. You know. Again, these Medachiese
wanted anything that they did, they went large, and they
(27:17):
wanted Alberti to take the Topieri's places they'd never been before.
So he had these like boxes Topieri eyed boxes, and
with that contained spheres, temples, urns. We had oxen, a
partridge in a pear tree, a bear, goats, I'm his
name and stuff. Now they probably had yeah, warriors, a haarpee.
(27:40):
I mean this is like you know, you ever see
those guys on some of those like really over the
top like cooking shows that like work in chocolate, you know,
and they make a fricking race car out of chocolate.
It's more like fabricating you know, a product than it
is making you know, a delicious dish. That's the level
that these folks were going, you know, to get the detail,
(28:00):
to have like heartbeat with the talons and like warriors, philosophers,
cardinals and popes. Absolutely wild stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, I mean this stuff we're naming. Even if it
sounds like we're being a little redundant there, you have
to understand, if you can imagine a topiary sculpture, they
probably did it. And they had visitors, international visitors from
places like France. So the royalty, the aristocracy of France
(28:31):
comes over. Actually I'm being diplomatic. The kings of France
invaded at least several times, so it's kind of a
visit with a motive. And while they are invading and
sewing chaos, they like the gardens and so you know,
war is a great communicator of culture, unfortunately in addition
to all the evil stuff it creates. So these French
(28:54):
kings start importing Italian styles for all kinds of stuff,
for food, for you know, cuisine, for fashion, for literature,
and of course for topiary. And eventually, for a while,
just like the Romans were kind of aping Greek style.
For a while, the French were just emulating Italian style
(29:14):
until they began developing their own sort of vibe. And
that vibe is a little more militaristic, almost like rigid symmetrical.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, very aesthetic. It really was like very kind of
weirdly almost like brutalists, you know, topiery, rigid. You're right,
like you said, been very rigid, a lot of symmetry.
Very West. Wes Anderson would have would approve. He's also
he's a big Francophile and you know that Casey Wes
Anderson is like permanently apartment in Paris. I think he's
(29:48):
there pretty much all the time. He loves it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Whoa hold the phote or hold the hedge trimmers.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
This is a two.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, watch yourself. We've got on deep and we're going
deeper because there's a lot more to the story of
Topiary than you might clock if you're just walking through Versailles.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
This is right on this episode. We went deep. Next
episode we're going to go wide and hard in the
paint when it comes to Topiari's the balloon Animals of Gardening, so.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Big, big thanks of course to Casey Pegram our super
producer dear dear family member of the show Casey, we're
going to ask.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
We'll give you till part.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Two to ask if you want to, you know, make
this a semi regular thing. But thank you so much. Man,
you're just here the business.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Okay, Well, I'll mull it over, give us some.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Thought, all right, Yes, we don't want to do a
hard sell. Thanks also to of course, mister Max Williams,
super producer, Max White Pants Williams.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Guy's pants are just so white, blindingly white, blinded by
the white pants.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, and of course thanks to his real life sibling
Alex Williams, who composed this slap and bopya here right now.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Chris fhrasciotis than Jeff Coates here in Spirits, all the hits,
Jonathan Strickland, that guy you Ben, She's Louise and hey
with all of you, we'll see you next time. Focus
(31:21):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's have a very special shout out
to our favorite returning guest. What are the core members
of the Ridiculous History family, the legendary super producer mister
Casey Pegrum.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Glad to be back with you guys again.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Good to have.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We were just talking about like marvelification of cinema and
like we've got the Ridiculous Cinematic Universe universe coming in.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, dude, you're the core Universe returning You know what
I mean? This is so I've been your Noel. We've
got cases. Yeah, we've got a shout out to Max.
White Pants Williams off On Adventures and the.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Pole are still clean. I hope they're still pristine.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I hope he keeps them under glass And you know, no,
I don't. I think I mentioned it, but I didn't
want to go too hard on because I didn't want
him to feel eclipsed. But I also have a pair
of white pants for a wedding and I straight up
did not wear them because I was like, it's gonna
be a long, hot Tuscan.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Afternoon in Tuscan. That's you know what, wearing a white
suit in Tuscany is very on brand. I think that's
that's cool. It's very Godfather too. I guess there is.
There are photographs of me that exists out there in
the world somewhere of me as a small child wearing
a white suit to a wedding as well. So while
I'm not with you contemporarily, young me is on board.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I've got a I got a sear sucker. I call
it my Televan suit Casey saw me wear it a
few times back in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
You remember what I'm talking about. Yeah, how does one
suck a sere? Ben?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, you can suck up to a seer by following
a cult, right, But one thing that stands out when
you Okay, my very close friend who had this waying
in Italy, he weddings can be stressful, they're beautiful, right.
I was there just to basically drop a hot three minutes,
do my tight three minutes there. And when I got
(02:29):
there first time in Italy, I looked around and this
is my buddy, Corey Oliver. We all know him, and
and I was like, Corey dang man, all those paintings
that Olive Gardener are accurate. This is what it looks like.
And he said, don't say that, dude, I've worked so
hard on this. But I looked at it and you
look out across you know, this like wine country landscape,
(02:52):
and it seems that all of the trees and the
shrubs are just so. They seem some unnaturally manicure. Italy
runs Topiery, at least in a natural sense. And I
think it's something that you know, we're gonna we're gonna
spend some time on this, No, because our research associates
(03:13):
are also pretty excited about this. Did you guys have
like Topiery growing up? Did you go through hedge mazes
anything like that?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Well, I mean, I don't think we are of the
echelon of society that has Topieri. I don't know about y'all.
My upbringing was somewhat middle middle class at best. Topieri
seem the kind of thing that go in like Tuscan
gardens or like you know, builtmore estate. Don't they have
Topieri's at I'm pretty sure they do, or like you know,
(03:43):
the Overlook hotel in the show.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was gonna say, that's my association as reading the
shining the novel and reading about the topiery animals coming
to life and all that.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So yeah, which they didn't really play up in the
movie at all. There's no Yeah, Edward Scissorhands topierism, get
the ariaization. Yes for the.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Topiery enthusiast in the crowd, a huge contingent of ridiculous historians.
The time has come. I remember many years ago, I
would like we we probably all had to do a
little bit of landscaping, housework stuff growing up. And Uh,
one of the things that I don't want to say,
got in trouble for I got reprimanded for was we
(04:25):
had one of those electric hedge trimmer clippery things. I
did some topiery and then and then my mother, who
has passed, uh saved me and was like, you messed
up this shrub. So now while you're here, go ahead
(04:46):
and do something with the rest of them.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
And so continuity is key. There we go. She she
she just defied me. But uh, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It turns out topiery as an art has a craft,
does a pursuit is pretty ancient. We in the modern
day have no idea who looked at a shrub and said, Nah,
I'm gonna jush it up a little.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, Topierre is kind of like the balloon animals of gardening,
you know, in a lot of ways. And it's older
than you'd think, which I guess makes sense because you know,
as long as there have been people walking the earth,
I think there have probably been some form of bush. Yeah,
they predate humans, but I think it's probably right. And
(05:32):
if there's one thing that humans have always been known
for us having imagination. You look at a thing, you say,
you know what, what if that thing were another thing?
And how can I make that happen? Maybe with this
rock or just by you know, tearing away branches with
my rough hewn you know ape Hans.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, we know Romans were fans of topiiization and they
seem to have picked it up like so many other
things from the Greeks of Old, and then the ancient
Egyptians were also snipping away at topiary. We're getting a
lot of this from a great article on country life
(06:10):
Topiary the ancient art of transforming nature into cubes, pyramids,
and peacocks. So that's a we always love a shout
out to a weird headline.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Oh, I mean, I think The key here is it
was It's always been a sign of opulence, because like,
who has the time, you know, or the resources to
do something so borderline frivolous and absurd. You know that
requires a lot of care and maintenance. I mean I
could barely get a haircut on a regular basis, let
(06:41):
alone keep my topiary from becoming overgrown.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've been wearing a hat all week because I haven't
made the time to shower.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, people are out here change in the world.
I fell asleep trying to put on a pair of
pants one time.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I love the notion though, that wearing a hat is
somehow a good cover up for not showering.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
It is also we're recording remotely, so no one can
smell me. Everybody pretend I smell amazing, but I can
tell you.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
From experience, you do smell amazing. Ben is that lavender?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
He is Laughingteric Casey follow my only fans, So, yeah,
you're raising excellent point here.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I will put topiary.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It reminds me of an earlier episode we did on
Garden Hermits. You know, Topier is like a step beneath
Garden Hermits, beneath paying.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
A human otherwise homeless guy.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, it'd be a lawn exhibit. But we know that
back in as far as one hundred CE. Plenty the
Younger talked about his garden in his country via or
villa because to your point, Nol, it is something that
pretty wealthy people tend to do in his society. And
(07:52):
he was like, my garden and my country house, I've
got this whole slope adorned with figures of animals in bah.
I've got a lawn that's enclosed with evergreen shaped in
a variety of forms. It was like his version of cribs.
That's why he was describing this.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I think animals in box would be a good name
for a band. I don't know why, it just it
just hit me that way. It's true, Pliny the Younger.
I guess it related to Planny of the Elder, or
they were just trying to keep our planey straight. They're
trying to franchise it. Got it, got it, got it,
got it well. He describes cypress trees that were cut
into the shape of figures, letters, even like messages, inscriptions,
(08:36):
certain kind of things you might see carved in marble,
like monuments like obelisks, and such again in this Tuscan villa,
and he credited a guy named Guy, a guy named
Gaius Guias Madius Calvinus, for introducing this whole concept's art
form to none other than Julius Caesar, who you know,
(08:57):
when you're Caesar, when you're king, and youths your fancy,
it's going to strike the fancy of the whole you know, empire.
And that's exactly what happened. It became quite popular across
the Roman Empire, right.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Because, as we see over and over again in human societies,
when the people at up top do something, even if
it's kind of dumb, then other people who aspire to
be at that echelon will mimic it, will emulate it.
I think another good, probably one of the most extreme
examples of that, is the origin of Castillan Spanish, where
(09:31):
you know, the ruler had a lisp, so everybody else
was like, oh yeah, poor stupleto and that's a lot
of yeah, yeah yeah. Luckily, that's no longer the thing.
If you go to Spain today, you'll see that most
most Spanish nationals, as younger generations come to the forefront,
(09:53):
they are less likely to have that accent.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
That is interesting. I did not know that story, Ben.
That's super cool and random. History is full of this
kind of stuff. So the the art of topiery, I
think it's just topiery. I think that's its own plural
or whatever. Or yeah, topiery is the thing, and the
art of topiery is the thing that you do. It
(10:16):
was super popular under Caesar. But much like early flush
toilet technology, when the Roman Empire fell, so did topiery
fell out of fashion at the very least, because largely,
you know, it was tough times. It was like a
time of struggle, when gardening and farming was more about
(10:40):
being functional than it was about being decorative. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Oh, and also I should say, no, Casey fell a
ridiculous historians, just in the interest of transparency. The story
about the medieval king speaking with a lisp has been well,
people back and forth over whether that's a myth. So
we lest we unfairly characterize medieval Spanish kings as you know,
(11:10):
their versions of Mike Tyson's Like any aesthetic, we see
a wax and a wane, a rise and a fall cyclically,
and to your point, noll As, constant infighting in these
different empires made cities increasingly resort to big walls for security.
(11:35):
There was less and less space for gardens, even if
you were the people at the tippidy Top the Grand
pubas so the topieri's ornamental nature had to shift. Now
it had to have a function. You needed to have
fruit trees. You need to have things that could produce
food in case of you know, another siege, which was
(11:59):
a constant reality of the time.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah. So also plants needed to be quite hearty, you know,
and not to be delicate, dainty little elephant shaped bushes,
you know, things that would stand under serious weather conditions
or as you put it, been like, you know, certain
wartime conditions, even although probably no amount of heartiness is
gonna you know, stand up to a you know, scorched
(12:23):
earth kind of campaign, right exactly. Yeah, this is not
the Uh, this is not the place for the precious lilies,
as we found actually, uh, because plants needed light and space,
and in my opinion, they need some kind gardening to
really thrive. You know, I'm a fan.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
I think we're all fans of talking to plants just
for the fundzies.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Because of all these things plants needed, and because of
these wartime situations that seem to occur constantly. There wasn't
a lot of gardening of any kind in Europe for
several centuries. Gardening went from being a privilege of the
wealthy and a workingman's industry to a thing that didn't
(13:08):
really happen. It became anachronistic until Charlemagne, our friend from
the breakfast.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Club Charleman the gut mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Until Charlemagne in his younger days and eight hundred CE
brought that gardening.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I knew it was only a matter of time. Yeah,
I love so so funny like Charlemagne. I guess Casey,
if we could put you on the case, that is
like a French portmanteau. I guess that means Charles the Great.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Well, it's it's from the French form of the Latin
adjective magnus, meaning great. So yeah, it's like if you
in French if you said manifique. So it's sort of
like a yeah, like a signific sense great.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
But it's also like saying vin number or ATM machine.
Then it's like Charles the Great, the Great.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a little redundant. Casey, oh the
case Casey on the case and bump bump. He is
very much interested in this functional type of farming, you know,
which is interesting. You think he maybe would have brought
back Topieri's right away, but he's more interested in herb
gardens and fruit trees and bringing this stuff back to France.
(14:15):
Around a thousand a d. Monasteries followed suit and started,
you know, we know monasterias have a history also of
like you know, brewing beer and doing kind of more
bespoke kind of handcrafts and stuff like that. They started
cultivating herbs and flowers and little shrubs, a little shrubs
(14:37):
like the knights who say me, shrubbery, that's shrubbery.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
And so after about one thousand a D or ce
whatever you prefer, when this stuff is happening in Europe,
we see that there are also these things called paradise
gardens in Spain and Sicily. And these are a little
bit different because they're not entirely functional, they're not sources
(15:03):
of food during sieges. They come from the Moorish occupation
because the Islamic culture controlled these parts of the world
during this time. And want to shout out to beyond
Bankies over who have a great article on the history
of Topiaries by Larry Hurley, who talks about this. There's
(15:25):
an interesting sort of contrast here, because, like you said,
the monasteries are growing herbs and flowers and shrubs, you know,
and they're using these things for food. They're using them
to flavor different beverages that they are creating to make
dyes for the illustrated manuscripts. The Moorish paradise gardens are saying, hey,
(15:48):
let's just have a nice landscape to look at, you
know what I mean, Let's take in the sunset and
watch the butterflies flit about. So the thing it was
cool everybody at some in some way. Both of these
pursuits led to green space. And now we have to
introduce the Anglo Saxons and the Vikings, who are you know,
(16:12):
mainly known for the pillaging.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
The plundering, the scorching of the earth, not necessarily for
their love of gardening. Yeah, it's interesting. It does, however,
look to be the case that Norman Nobles actually reintroduced
concepts of topiary, perhaps inspired by things they had seen
(16:37):
in their travels Islamic gardens for example, in Sicily. You know,
some of these types of gardens enclosed plots that added
a little bit of privacy hedges kind of you know,
in castle courtyards and some of these monasteries. And this
is where the term I believe horticulture comes in, where
(16:59):
we have the term hordous conclusis. Well, it's a Harry
Potter spell, right, I think that's right. Which was it
was a practice I guess, of trimming hedges and topping
them with almost like the kind of thing you'd see
on the top of a Christmas tree, but with like standards,
you know, like the eagle or whatever it might be, right.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, exactly. And there was an increasing trend of sophistication
because now topiary is back, baby, we're going Greco Roman
with it. You would see more intricate cuts of shrubs.
In the late thirteen hundreds we saw the rise of
a topiery known as the astraw, and things like rosemary.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
This is interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
We'll talk a little bit about bonds eye at some point,
but shrubs like rosemary could be trained into these semi
uniform kind of standardized shapes, and you would do that
by giving them an exos elati basically iron frame that
has a couple of different hoops of decreasing.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Size and then that would kind of limit its growth
in a certain way to make it tick on that
shape on its own. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And this coincided too. Again, the Italian Renaissance occurs later,
and the Italian Renaissance is a bunch of people in
Italy going full fanboy, like beast mode fanboy for everything
they consider ancient rome. And part of that surprise surprise
was topiary.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
So the kind of template I guess for this type
of garden did really come out of Italy. Europe really
looked to that model for a lot of these decorative
gardens for several hundred years. These included these herb gardens.
These formed liquid to your point, been the kind of
(18:54):
restrained growth of these clipped herbs and these shrubs that
would form, you know, when looked at from above, these
really intricate geometric patterns. A lot of potted plants were happening.
There would be espallier trees. Is that a type of
a tree ben or is that a style.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
That's kind of the exoskeleton we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Oh, that's the word. That's cool. I learned something new today.
I learned several new things today. I try to learn
something new. Most days. I think we all do here
in ridiculous history world. But yeah, these kind of little accents.
And then also Casey to your point about the shining,
they didn't have spooky, you know, living topiary animals, but
(19:36):
they did have a pretty boss hedge maze, which is
a great, you know sequence in that film. I've never
personally walked a hedge maze or a corn maze for
that matter, have you all sounder? Just yeah, what's it like? Uh,
It's it's cool.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
They run the gamut because there are some that are
meant to be more away a while away the afternoon,
and so for some of those they might not always
be taller than human height. But then there are others
that are really intricate. There's one I want to visit.
You remember that book, The Codex.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That I love.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
The publisher of that, who is like a very old
Italian money guy, was also known for having the world's
largest hedge maze on his a state in Italy. And yeah,
he passed away. That's a flex. That's a very specific,
weird flex. We should probably have Miles and Jack back on.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
But but yeah, and then corn maze is you know,
a seasonal you can find them here in the southern US,
and those are those are kind of like I would
put them in the pantheon of a Tumnaal hangout, things
like hay rides, which you mentioned a previous episode, or
you know, outdoor haunted houses.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Question is the minotaur at the center of a corn
maze made of corn?
Speaker 1 (20:59):
I don't believe if there is a minotaur, but it'd
be cool if they had like a minitar Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
If they had either scarecrow or straight up cow. I
do like that, just to get surprised a just scruntled cow,
you know. So yeah, what about you? Casey corn mazes
hedge maases.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I have not been to one.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I was looking actually at pumpkin patches here in Georgia,
and there is one that has some you know, a
tiny little cornd kind of thing nearby.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I think that's the one I went to with with
my family over the weekend. It's called Bert's Pumpkin Patch
and it's not on site, but I think there's a
corn maze adjacent. It's like a separate property. But they
do do a hay ride that has some very subtle,
not so subtle religious indoctrination coming from Animatronic pumpkins.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And our pal our pals Dylan Fagan uh was there
as well as Miranda Hawkins.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I want to say, yeah, so itwas a good time.
I spent way too much money on pumpkins. But my
house is looking very festive right now. Nice, you're a
pumpkin ear and please do carve. I love it.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
I love carving pumpkins, So this weekend.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So the Medicis who are known for doing some evil
stuff and also being big art patrons, and they're the
billionaires of their day. Basically they love flexes and so
people in Medici's social class and above are all about
keeping up with the other obscenely wealthy Joneses. They want
(22:35):
to always one up each other with the most expensive,
opulent displays of wealth, the biggest parties, the best art,
the nicest, most impressive buildings. Horticulture is no exception. You
will see things like the Villa Karachi right outside Florence,
completed around fourteen sixteen. It has all kinds of topiary spheres, porticos, temples, vosses, earns,
(23:01):
a bunch of animals, giant people, size things, men, women,
wild you know, famous people.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, I haven't really witnessed one of these. I'm you know,
you know what happens when you get older, you get
really into like pots and buying nice pots and pans
and sweaters and gardening. Like I just you know, I
never in a million years would have been like I
need a garden, but lo and behold, I spent way
too much money on landscaping my backyard and I love
it. It's not nothing like this, but it's just nice to have.
(23:31):
I don't know. I think it's maybe humanity's desire to
kind of control their surroundings or to in some way exert,
you know, their influence over like the earth or whatever.
And a lot of the stuff that we're getting to better,
that we're working through, it's all based around leisure time
and like, you know, the ability to do something just
because because it's nice, like the you know, let's watch
(23:53):
the butterflies and the and the topiary garden. But I
have not seen things like this in person. Have you
been a see like in your travels you would have
wandered through some topiary gardens.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and you can see. Actually, we are immensely
privileged to live in the fair metropolis of Atlanta, because
Atlanta is home to the Atlanta Botanical Garden.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
They have allis in Wonderland themed ones, don't they. Yeah
they I haven't been. Okay, it's a great it's a
week in date, you know, takes take day and.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
The kid and and I love going there as a group.
They have a lot of cool larger than life sculptures.
Of course, being you know, being that it is a garden,
it is seasonal, so check ahead. It's kind of like
the High Museum. They have rotating stuff that goes in
and out, and they have a lot of famous artists
(24:45):
that come through, uh who put their own spin on things.
But yeah, we can see the topiary now, I believe
what is it? It's mid October as we record.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We'll have to check. We'll check at the end and
we'll see what they've got going on. This might be
like when we decided to go to a Monster Truck rally.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, that was really really fine, except I did bring
my kid, who has some serious sensory overload issues. Monster
truck Rally not the best place for a kid like that,
but it was definitely an experience. It was also intensely hot,
and I forgot that there's no shade in those bleachers.
You're just like under the beating, you know, oppressive sun.
(25:25):
Just the scale of it too. Man, it was neat.
I'm glad I went. I don't think I'll ever go again,
but like I can, I can check.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I would go if it was a different time of year,
or if it was more convenient. But it's just it's
just cool to see.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
When you see a monster truck rally, what you're witnessing
is the two absolute opposite spectrums of human intelligence and
curiosity occurring simultaneously. Like imagine being smart enough to build
this huge stadium, being ingenious enough to not only invents
(26:00):
but invent these amazing cartoon cars, and then also being
human enough to say, well, now we should wreck them,
you know, hold my beer. That's that's humanity.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
It is.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So the Italian gardeners become a huge industry, right, Italian
topiery specialists, and they keep expanding to build these increasingly
bigger things, as the Medici type dudes are in an
opulence arms race.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
These are the same folks that were like patrons of
the arts, and they had some very refined tastes and
they did some amazing things, you know. They they were
they were patrons and benefactors of incredible artists. We probably
would not have would be able to enjoy the work
of some of these figures if it weren't for the
for the Mediciese. And they also were big fans of
(26:54):
flexing their wealth, you know, the world. And by the way, Ben,
the gardens that you mentioned were designed by another individual
that these folks, we could say, were you know, acting
as benefactors for the architect Leon Battista Alberti, who incorporated
some really elaborate like that. You know. Again, these Medachiese
wanted anything that they did, they went large, and they
(27:17):
wanted Alberti to take the Topieri's places they'd never been before.
So he had these like boxes Topieri eyed boxes, and
with that contained spheres, temples, urns. We had oxen, a
partridge in a pear tree, a bear, goats, I'm his
name and stuff. Now they probably had yeah, warriors, a haarpee.
(27:40):
I mean this is like you know, you ever see
those guys on some of those like really over the
top like cooking shows that like work in chocolate, you know,
and they make a fricking race car out of chocolate.
It's more like fabricating you know, a product than it
is making you know, a delicious dish. That's the level
that these folks were going, you know, to get the detail,
(28:00):
to have like heartbeat with the talons and like warriors, philosophers,
cardinals and popes. Absolutely wild stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, I mean this stuff we're naming. Even if it
sounds like we're being a little redundant there, you have
to understand, if you can imagine a topiary sculpture, they
probably did it. And they had visitors, international visitors from
places like France. So the royalty, the aristocracy of France
(28:31):
comes over. Actually I'm being diplomatic. The kings of France
invaded at least several times, so it's kind of a
visit with a motive. And while they are invading and
sewing chaos, they like the gardens and so you know,
war is a great communicator of culture, unfortunately in addition
to all the evil stuff it creates. So these French
(28:54):
kings start importing Italian styles for all kinds of stuff,
for food, for you know, cuisine, for fashion, for literature,
and of course for topiary. And eventually, for a while,
just like the Romans were kind of aping Greek style.
For a while, the French were just emulating Italian style
(29:14):
until they began developing their own sort of vibe. And
that vibe is a little more militaristic, almost like rigid symmetrical.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, very aesthetic. It really was like very kind of
weirdly almost like brutalists, you know, topiery, rigid. You're right,
like you said, been very rigid, a lot of symmetry.
Very West. Wes Anderson would have would approve. He's also
he's a big Francophile and you know that Casey Wes
Anderson is like permanently apartment in Paris. I think he's
(29:48):
there pretty much all the time. He loves it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Whoa hold the phote or hold the hedge trimmers.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
This is a two.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, watch yourself. We've got on deep and we're going
deeper because there's a lot more to the story of
Topiary than you might clock if you're just walking through Versailles.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
This is right on this episode. We went deep. Next
episode we're going to go wide and hard in the
paint when it comes to Topiari's the balloon Animals of Gardening, so.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Big, big thanks of course to Casey Pegram our super
producer dear dear family member of the show Casey, we're
going to ask.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
We'll give you till part.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Two to ask if you want to, you know, make
this a semi regular thing. But thank you so much. Man,
you're just here the business.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Okay, Well, I'll mull it over, give us some.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Thought, all right, Yes, we don't want to do a
hard sell. Thanks also to of course, mister Max Williams,
super producer, Max White Pants Williams.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Guy's pants are just so white, blindingly white, blinded by
the white pants.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, and of course thanks to his real life sibling
Alex Williams, who composed this slap and bopya here right now.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Chris fhrasciotis than Jeff Coates here in Spirits, all the hits,
Jonathan Strickland, that guy you Ben, She's Louise and hey
with all of you, we'll see you next time. Focus
(31:21):
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Noel Brown
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