June 7, 2022 • 41 mins
In a response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US, along with more than 60 other countries, boycotted the Olympics. Yet three Puerto Rican boxers refused to allow politics to stand in their way of their athletic ambitions. In today's episode, Ben, Noel and Max welcome Bijan Stephen and Layne Gerbig, the creators of the Eclipsed podcast, to learn what led them to create this show -- and what the 1980 Olympics can teach us about the larger context of history.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. Let's give it up for
our one and only super producer, the Man, the myth,
the legend. You know him, you know him, super producer
Max Williams. They called me, Yeah, well, yeah, you're an
old and I love Max too. You know, I'm trying
(00:47):
to get more in touch with my feelings, right, uh so,
nol um, You and I are fans of many, many things.
And I don't know about you, man, but were you
lucky enough to go to the Olympics when they were
held in Atlanta back in nineties six or so? I
did not, but I remember the weird little mascot that
(01:10):
probably cost a gazillion dollars. What is it is? He?
He was just sort of a thing, like it was
a non what was it? This is that thing on
Mr Show Pit Pat. He's like a non gendered kind
of pan sexual spokes thing. I think that is kind
of what izz he was was supposed to be, Like
what is it? What is it? Okay? Cool? Yeah, you
(01:30):
weren't supposed to know what it was. It was supposed
to be like draw you in to it, and then
you were spy trying to figure out what it was. Well,
and and there, and the collectible pins proliferate our thrift
shops here in the Atlanta area to this day. So yeah, man,
history is weird. That's kind of the point of our show.
So we were thinking about the Olympics for a while,
fellow ridiculous historians. We had them on our minds, and
(01:53):
not just randomly for good reason. You see, we are
diving into a little owned story about the Olympics all
the way back in nineteen eighty and we're not doing
it alone, that's correct. We are joined with the creators
and the host and the producer of Eclipse, which is
(02:16):
a weekly narrative history podcast from our good friends at
camp Side Media. Please welcome to the show, Stephen and
Lane gerbick Oh, thank you for having us. Great to
be here. This is exciting. Yeah, we definitely have done
(02:37):
plenty of Olympic episodes. There's, of course, the Olympics that
were famously in Berlin under the Nazi regime and Emily
Jesse Owens one to Hitler's chagrin in the triathlon, and
that's the one that always sticks in my mind. But this,
you know, so the Olympics have always served as kind
of like a political bargaining chip in some respect, and
(02:59):
I think we're gonna jump into another story with that
same kind of flavor today. Yeah, for sure. So when
we talk about the Olympics in nineteen eighty, there are
some folks in the audience who may remember them, may
have firsthand experience of reading, you know, the contemporaneous press
and so and so forth. But I don't think a
(03:21):
lot of people in two just know off the top
of their heads that the US actually boycott at the
Olympic Games. I didn't know until we started chatting together.
Could you tell us a little bit about how that
came to be? Yeah, of course, But no, that's a
great question. I think. Um, it has to do with
(03:41):
Jimmy Carter, the Soviet Union and Afghanistan, which you know,
you might recognize those names. Jimmy Carter is the president
of the US in and in nineteen seventy nine, I
believe the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and installed a new dictator,
so they like did a coup, Mr Carter. You know,
there's the highly Cold War. He wasn't very happy that
(04:02):
the Soviets had done that, and the Olympics is coming
up in nineteen eighties, so he was like and it
was set to be Moscow, so he was just like, well,
we're not gonna go because unless you fix this, unless
you leave Afghanistan. And Sounian was like no. So Carter
was like, Okay, everybody who's aligned with the US, don't
(04:23):
go to the Olympics. And it ended up being sixty
five countries that were just like, nah, we're not going.
And we're seeing something similar right now with Russia's invasion
of Ukraine and a lot of like you know, national
kind of sports organizations not allowing Russian participants and also
obviously not sending anyone to any sort of things that
are based in Russia. Yeah, it's like it's unfortunately timely
(04:45):
because you know, so I think I feel like we
like I please correct me if I'm wrong, but I
feel like we we do stories that like are overlooked
for a reason, like not for a reason, but they're
overlooked because like they're not always that resonant in history,
Like it's not they don't feel current all the time.
And this is it's distressing that this one feels extremely current. Yeah,
Like I think we were in Puerto Rico on the
(05:07):
ground doing reporting and there was like this big Russian
flag and it just was it just hit us in
that moment. We were like time, time is circular, like
history definitely repeats itself, doesn't repeat itself, but it does. Rhyme.
I think somebody somebody said that somebody smart to Nighted Lucas.
I know that's something else, but it's probably but yeah,
(05:27):
it's I mean like the the Winner Games, Um, I
guess I was last year, right, they did the makeup
winner Olympic anyway, but um, Russia couldn't compete because they
invaded Ukraine and it was like r OC was what
they were competing under. Actually it was because they were
aggressing at Ukra. I don't think they invaded quite then,
but it was. Yeah, so jump in real quickly. The
reason why Russia was competing under r OC was they
(05:51):
had been caught breaking into drug testing facilities at at
the IOC and changing out the samples. But Putin purposely
waited for the Olympics to end, like it was like
the week afterwards to invade you cranks. He knew he
would get probably like either get Hina in trouble or
something of that, and he actually did the same thing
when he invade Chromeia. That's interesting because he was that
(06:11):
they were definitely like making aggressive overtures at Ukraine beforehand.
But all right, well that's history. Well I don't think
we're too early in the show for it. Max hit
us with that sounds cute enough just for you right
now there it is. I guarantee like this will sound
(06:39):
this will make sense in the edit. But one thing
that really stands out to me, just before we dive
into this story, because there is a twist, we've set
up the context, but before we get to the twist,
I want to zoom out just a little bit and
hear more about eclipsed because Eclipse is taking an approach
(07:00):
that I personally quite enjoy, which is saying, let's look
at history. Let's look at not just historical events that
maybe could bear further examination, but let's look at them
in a new perspective, right from a fresh informed I
and could you tell us a little bit about the
(07:21):
inspiration that led you to create Eclipse and then lead
you to do your other work as well. I'm I'm
of course, I'm right now. I'm particularly thinking of the
Charming Killer episode from May three, which was true crime
author Sarah Wineman. Yeah, well I can tell you about
(07:41):
the genesis of Eclipse, and I think line can give
you more insight on why we choose the things we do. Um,
but yeah, the gene it was funny because, like I
they I case, I was like, hey, do you want
to host the show? And I was like, yeah, for sure.
What's it about? And they told me like a concept
and I was like, well, this makes sense, but I'm
going to change it with the other executive producer, Michael
(08:02):
Kenyon Meyer, who is not here today because he writes
the show trust to Mike. But basically we were like, Okay,
we want to do something that's that's going to be
interesting that we're actually interested in making, and so we
sort of scrapped the original concept. The thing we kept
was this is a show about stories you never knew
you never knew, so we sort of went from there. Yeah.
I think like history has such uh just there's so
(08:26):
much to dig into. If we're talking I p there's
tons of it, right, Like, there's tons of content to
pull from, and we picked stories that we want to
know more about, and normally we're searching the web, we're
we're seeing what strikes our fancy and the story about
this particular Olympics, and the stories that we choose tend
(08:48):
to hook us. So you brought up the this charming
killer story with Sarah Wineman. She was just an author
that I admired and we reached out to her and
we saw that she had a book coming up, and
I was like, true crime is popular for a reason
because it's it's it's you know, fascinating. So we're very
lucky in that we get to just follow our noses
(09:09):
and make stories out of the stuff that we find.
And that's just the benefit of having a weekly show.
As you guys probably understand, a few lots of episodes,
you can talk about lots of stuff. Well, I think
de Ben's point do that unique perspective tends to be
more of an individualized perspective of you know, people on
the ground and stories that kind of get interwoven with
much larger political events that are beyond the control of
(09:31):
an individual. But when you see it through the perspective
of that person, I think it makes it a little
more easy to kind of identify with the larger historical context. Yeah,
we're very much journalists in that sense, Like we we
go and find subjects people who live through this stuff.
Like I think one of my favorites, UM was are
we did a story about a lake that disappeared in
Louisiana and we talked to a guy who like watched
(09:53):
it happen, and you know, there was a happy ending
and whatnot and uh, which maybe that's a spoiler. I
don't know. It happened like two years ago. But we
talked to like the guy who has who saw it happened,
and then the author who like in the immediate aftermath
like flew down there and wrote about it for a
magazine and that piece, you know, like only exists basically
(10:13):
the print copies that were made, like it's not nowhere
on one OPEC. Really fascinating to talk to these people
who lived through this event kind of in two different timelines.
But yeah, so that's so that's that's I guess that's
sort of our approach. And I don't know, I feel
like we do get to follow our nos as we um.
I went to a museum like last Thanksgiving, and I
was like, oh, there's an exhibit about these two dogs,
why are they in there? And that's an episode that's
(10:34):
coming out soon, the two most famous dogs in San Francisco.
I got to do a whole story about hand farts
and the history of hand farts. We did a Hot
BEV series because we were like Hot Beverages. We kept
coming back to it because we like we were like, okay,
clearly we gotta have something better, but like we kept
we just kept coming back. But it was like, oh,
(10:55):
this is actually kind of good, like maybe we can
do this. And now it's you can listen to it
on your podcast. It's three episodes on your favorite hops.
Hell yeah, I feel like Hot Beverages are sort of
like falling out of fashion a little bit. Or maybe
I don't. I gotta hear the episode. But it seems
like everything's ice to these days, you know, I don't
know true gotta have boba, you know. I think it's
a it's fascinating point because it tells us that there
(11:19):
is so much history behind everything, even if you think
of it as something as innocuous as that little you know,
that little plastic, three pronged thing that goes in the
center of pizza like that. I'm sure that yeah, sure,
pizza table, thank you. I'm sure that thing has like
some story. And there's some inventors somewhere who is kind
(11:42):
of low key famous in the field of pizza delivery.
I could have sworn I saw a life hack of
what that thing is. Actually, it keeps the pizza from
getting crushed, right, like that's GE's gotta It keeps the box,
gives the box something to do with. But but surely
it has a secondary use, right, And it's a little yeah,
you're tiny figurines. You can put a football on it maybe? Yeah. See.
(12:06):
I like where I like the way we're all thinking. Right,
this is almost like one of those weird tech startup
interview questions what could you do with the little pizza day?
But the reason um at least I personally wanted to
(12:27):
ask about process is primarily because I see the explorations
go deep every time and go in so many different directions.
So the nineteen eighty Olympics, I I'm gonna be honest,
I'll be absolutely candid. I vaguely thought I think Carter
(12:49):
was president then, but I didn't know. I wasn't around,
And then to hear that the US boycotted those Olympics,
And as you said, like, um, what sixty five countries?
That that seems like a story that would have already
been bigger news than than I had assumed in two.
But that's not the twist because our stute listeners are
(13:11):
gonna are gonna notice that you had earlier said, Lane,
we were in Puerto Rico getting taped. So one of
the first questions they would have, right, I hope apologies
listeners if I'm assuming too much, but I would hope
one of the questions would be like, why are we
in Puerto Rico? Right? The sound there it is, Well, yeah,
(13:36):
what's going on on the ground? Well, Benn and Nolf
and Max producer, Max, have I got a story for you? Um,
the big So what if I told you, you know
that there was a boycott, you know, sixty five countries
boycotted the nine Olympics held in Moscow, and you know
the US was in charge of the boycott. What if
(13:58):
I told you American citizen went to that Olympics and competed, right,
blow you in mind? Yeah, that's another I don't know
if we do the law and order drop or if
we do the Scooby Doo, sound like we gotta do
the like recreated law and order. Drop. We don't have
the right. Yeah, we can't get we don't have the
rights to it. I trust your test I trust it's
(14:19):
going to come through the edit. Um. But no, this
is true story. This is a true story, um. And
it's basically it's the The athletes were three boxers from
Puerto Rico. They're a boxing team and they went to
the Olympics because they qualified, and they were like it
was interesting because they didn't think they were doing anything political,
Like they saw themselves as not political and just athletes.
(14:41):
And there was a whole thing about this. But yeah,
Lane and I went down to Puerto Rico with our
translator Alan, and we got the story. So this like
when you're we should mention, I believe you were you
all making this during the pandemic, like during the height
of it, as an and we went at pandemic. Yeah,
(15:06):
we went, um in March recently, back when the pandemic
had its fresh car smell, right and everybody, So what
was when you were traveling? How did you how did
you find these boxers the internet? Um? I think originally
I like contact find or find the story. You know,
(15:27):
I'm interested, not to be too Jodie Foster about it,
but I'm interested in the contact aspect. I think, uh, Basion,
correct me if I'm wrong. I think our producer Joe
just like went really far into the Internet because, like
I mean, these gentlemen don't really have huge social media presences.
So we have like a document with a bunch of
links that are like this could be his nephew, or
(15:48):
I think this is a different like Luise, but maybe
we should check it out. And I think it just
proved really fruitful, and we got our translator slash stringer
Alan to reach out and he became one of the
boys by the end of the trip because he was
just like cracking a beer with with our with our
subjects and yeah, shooting the ship. The beer that in
(16:09):
fact was was named for their their like athletic exploits.
So the beer is called Media if you've heard of it, um,
And it was for these three boxers because they like
they were incredible boxers and they meddled at the Pan
American Games in which qualified them for the Olympics. So
the beer is called Media and it's still around and
you can drink it. It's actually delicious, pretty nice, lightly
(16:30):
drink so much of it. Yeah, it's fantastic. I found
a place in Brooklyn then has it just like a
random bar. It's pretty good, man. The story is actually
is it's very interesting. It's not just that there were
like US citizens going to the Olympics or that they
were breaking the boycott, because obviously it's both of those things,
but it's we realized in the course of telling the story,
it's like it's actually more of a story about international
(16:52):
politics and Puerto Rican sovereignty and like what it means
to be, like what it means to compete as a
nation kind of because Puerto Rico wasn't even an American
you know, territory or whatever it is until nineteen seventeen.
I want to say, yeah, something like that. I think
I believe it had to do with some there was
a war and it was a spoil of war if
I'm not mistaken. But yeah, despite that history, and you
(17:14):
know it was it was you know, colony the US
for a while, or it was there was a more
colonial relationship, I should say. In any case, Puerto Rico
has also been competing as itself on the international stage
since night, like since the Olympics, which happened immediately after
World War Two, but like it was one of those
things where it's kind of a quirk of history because
(17:36):
the reason port even gets to do that is because
of one like intrepid guy at the International Olympics Committee
who was like, hey, it'll be told The US government
was like, hey, it'll be seen as a really like
gracious thing for you to do. You just fought against imperialism.
Why are you doing this at home? You should let
Puerto Rico compete is itself, because they really wanted to,
and that's like how that started. So Puerto Rico has
its own Olympic committee and it's own Olympic team, and
(17:58):
it's an Olympic funding which is you know, part of
the reason why them deciding to defind the boycott was
so dramatic. So it wasn't like they didn't get the memo.
It was an active choice based on presidences. And the
whole thing was like the governor of the island of
the time. Uh, this guy named Carlos Fromier Barcelo was
not happy. He was he because like the the other
(18:20):
thing is like this is all I'm sorry this is
this is I hope this is interesting, but I'm gonna
infod up first. Perfect. But the whole thing was like
they're they're like three schools, three main schools. I thought
there are any more, obviously, but three main schools of
political thought in Puerto Rico. And it's basically has to
do with a relationship with the US. So there are
people who wanted to be a state. There are people
(18:40):
who wanted to remain a territory. There are people who
wanted to be its own nation, like its own island nation.
And obviously, like the stuff gets sort of worked out
in political referendums here and there. But at the time,
the guy Barcelo was a pro US statehood guy. So
these boxers were like, Okay, we we want to go
to our Olympics because we're boxers, which means we don't
(19:01):
we only get one shot because otherwise because you want
to go pro and make money. Hey, but be your
career isn't that long, you know, even the best boxers,
it's you just don't last long because you're getting hit
in the head all the time. And so they were like,
we want to go to our Olympics. And this was
a big deal um and so they like sort of
scrounged up the money to do it, like they it's
like they did like bootleg kickstarter, just asking people for cash,
I think. And the basketball team didn't get to go,
(19:24):
but they were they also qualified for the Olympics. But
anyway they go and it's just like okay, now we're
now we're athletes were competing there, but it's it's like
a really really interesting story about statehood and about nationalism.
And then there's the aftermath, which we also talked about,
but I'll leave that to Lane. And it's not like
America has always done super right by Puerto Rico. That's
(19:45):
an understanding. Yeah, I mean, I know, I'm sorry I'm
being diplomatic here because we're talking about diplomacy, but you know,
I mean, I don't see this necessarily as an outright
act of protest because it was based on precedent. But
do you think there was an element of protest in
this as well that even flew in the face of
(20:05):
some of the people in power within Puerto Rico, as
you say, who had a political end of their own.
I think it's for sure, and act, I mean, I
think our boxers would argue that it wasn't. But when
we talked to them, they were mad at the U. S.
Government and they still are in some ways because this
was their shot, this was their chance, and they were
(20:26):
met the U. S. Government and these political relations were
meddling so much that it's impacting their personal lives and
their dreams and their hopes. So I think, yeah, the
mere act of going it has to be a political act,
even if you say it's not. Yeah, I agree with that, um,
And I think it's I think notably, you can say, like,
even if they don't believe it, you can say that
(20:46):
it was because a lot of people in the island
still remember them and like remember like what they did, uh,
And they mostly remember the Pan American Games where they
did really well, but like people still remember the nineteen Olympics,
like older people like this one guy we spoke to
a namation. I almost like, hell, yeah, we're so proud
of this guy. You know. Can we introduce our our
heroes here? Um, just a little bit of background and
(21:06):
names at the very least, and who these guys were. Yeah.
So we three boxers. First, we got Alberto de Mercado,
who is our team captain in some ways. He's leading
the charge. He's the most bold and brash of the three.
And he has a museum that we visited, his home museum.
He lives above it below It is this like it's
(21:29):
this super packed museum with like newspaper clippings and awards
and like just memorabilia from his you know what is
it beon like forty forty years ago the Olympics happened,
but also professional career too. It's kind of a shrine.
That's amazing. That's I mean college a museum or is trining,
(21:50):
But that's sort of in some ways, that's kind of
a dream job, right, I live above my museum. It's
you know, I think that's kind of It's definitely interesting
because the museum him was a gift from the Puerto
Rican government, which is complicated because that only happened like
two years ago, oh yeah before. Yeah, so there's like
(22:13):
there's a lot of feelings. They have a lot of
feelings about their own government too. But our second boxer
is Jose Molina, who was like he was a light heavyweight.
I think Mercado was like a flyweight something like that,
and Mollina was the heaviest light heavyweight great boxer. But
he he you know, he lives like with his family. Like,
(22:33):
so one thing to understand is like they half of
the stories about how they had to like live afterward,
after like going to the Olympics and making this big
name for themselves. And the third boxer is Luis Pizzaro,
who was the youngest. He was like he was he
must have been like eighteen or something. He was like
sixteen at the time. He was super he was a teenager.
He like, yeah, I was worried about going to prom
(22:56):
at that age, he's worrying about competing in the Olympics
kind of thing. A real phenomen I mean, like like
the high hopes hi hopes for this kid. Yeah, and
and the geopolitical ramifications of being of being in the Olympics.
That's I mean, that's a trip for sure. I love
you point out that a great deal of the story
is about the aftermath, which we've alluded to just just
(23:20):
a bit here. The question then becomes, like, as you said,
I would agree that on some level, all acts are
inherently political acts, depending on the perspective when wants the
place them in. But with this, what I'm hearing is
these three guys who are scrappy, right, and say, hey,
we're not We're not giving up our chants because we're
(23:42):
well aware of how short of boxing career can be.
They say, okay, we hear you one of the world's
most dangerous superpowers, but we're going and then we're coming back.
Were there like attempts at consequences or was know Jimmy
Carter's got that stereotype of being kind of a milk dose,
(24:03):
but did he was going to ask? A boycott isn't
inherently litigious. I mean it's more of like a symbolic act, right,
like is there is they're built in are they're built
in consequences for defying a quote unquote boycott. It's not
the same as like an embargo. I mean it's more
of like a an agreement that you can make verbally
and everyone just like we're patriotic, so obviously we're not
gonna do it, sort of like crossing a picket line. Yeah,
(24:25):
I think it was like it was a soft power move,
like there's no they're not getting arrested when they get
off the plane when they come back, but like their countrymen,
like a lot was at stake for them to go
to Russia because of the relationship with the US just
like you know, like you said, like unwritten these like
these unwritten laws that you're breaking because the US government
(24:48):
is providing them federal resources like Medicare, Medicaid. Like if
they go and they harm this relationship, then their neighbors
and their families might not have access to the the
resources that they need. So that was kind of the
pushback that they were getting when they were deciding to go,
and then when they came back. Um, I think there
were different camps about whether or not it was worth it. Yeah, yeah,
(25:12):
but that there was like a real, real implicit threat
they were getting. They were getting threats to like their
um the government perto Rican government was like pressuring Mercado's
parents for example, and his parents were like, you can
go again in four years. Just wait. Um there was
at least one bomb threat. I think we we heard
from them. Um Marcado lost his job and I think
Molina's job was threatened to because they're not professional boxers
(25:35):
at this time. They're amateurs, right, because the Olympics is
an amateur It's like the Olympics is an amateur competition specifically,
and so if you go pro, you can't compete the Olympics.
But it's this was also like I think, I think
the few years, the four years before I want to
say seventy six was um like I think it was
one of the It was televised, and like, these boxers
were boxing in front of a huge international audience, and
(25:57):
so when they went pro after the Olympics, they got
huge big are much bigger paid it. So there's like
a real financial incentive to compete in the Olympics as
a boxer because you can demand bigger purses and better fights.
So like and I mean, like maybe unlike other sports
like football for example, I mean that really is the
door opener for a professional career, is being a on
the on the Olympic team. But like film festivals for example,
(26:19):
they are qualifying events, Like in order to be considered
for the oscar as, you have to win or compete
within like some other accepted you know, film festival. That's
the case here as well. Can you talk about the
games that led to their qualification for the Olympics. Yeah,
the main ones were probably the Pan American Games in
seventy nine, which happens on a four year cycle. It's
(26:40):
a it follows the Olympic charter. It's the same sort
of event. And I believe I think two of them
won goal. They got a bunch of medals. They came
back with a couple of goals, seven medals total, couple golds,
some silver's and appreciate something like that better than I've done,
right and name uh and it's it was. I mean,
(27:01):
it's a big deal. It's the same, it's the same
sort of but it's like it's it's region it's a
more regional games. Um, the US does actually compete in
the Pan American Games, so these I think one of
the subtexts is that these boxers were competing against like
other American citizens in the games for like a spot
on the podium, and all of those people who competed
(27:22):
for the US, like the basketball team and the boxing
team or whatever, they didn't get to go to the Olympics.
And you know, there's a there's a really poign in
ESPN article about it from like the early two thousands
that like talks to those people, those boxers, and then
they're really like upset that they didn't get to go
because like it derailed their careers in a in a sense,
I mean because you still you know, you go pro
and things sometimes work out. So there's something that really
(27:49):
catches me about this story, even just cursory looking into
it before talking to the experts here on this show.
And it is exactly what you described, John, the larger
context for anyone who maybe is listening and is not
familiar with US Puerto Rican relationships intentions for a very
(28:12):
very long time, longer than any of the five of
us in the show today have been alive. There have
been those three camps, right, and sometimes they fluctuate and strength,
pushing for statehood, pushing for remaining a territory, or pushing
for independence. But I've been lucky enough to go to
Puerto Rico in the in the past, and when people
(28:34):
are in there, I think, I think folks forget that
being a territory brings its own kind of inherent baked
in inequalities. Right. I'm multiple multiple levels, you know. And
when we hear these boxers say, Okay, I am an athlete,
I am not a politician. Don't put that on me.
(28:56):
Did you feel that they held to that that forty
years on or did you feel that they they had
a particular position in this regard as they look back
on the events of I mean, I think I asked
uh Alberto if he ever considered running for office because
he was such a public facing figure. He did make
(29:18):
these big, the big moves um on the international level,
and he didn't have any interest in that. I think
they all really wanted to be boxers because this was
their their things, is their their dream. And the other two,
I mean, Louise moved to Massachusetts, so he's not in
Puerto Rico anymore. And Molina is perfectly content to you know,
(29:39):
he worked a job at a shipyard and retired, and
he helped his brother become a world champion. I mean,
I would say he's political, but I don't think he
you know, that's not what he wants to be known for.
I think he wants to be known for being a
a prideful like a person who did his country proud.
(30:00):
And his country is not the US, it's Puerto Rico. Yeah,
And I believe in the the PanAm Games, the governor
kind of got a bad rap because he wanted to
fly the American flag and not the Puerto Rican So
that's that is a legal thing, like legally you're not
allowed to fly the Puerto Rican flag by itself. You
have to fly beside or underneath the American flag. Okay,
(30:21):
but but still, but if it flew in the yeah,
he got bood for like twelve minutes, like he couldn't
give a speech. But this this also flew in the
face of like, you know, all of that precedent, since
he tried to pull the stunt, you know, because Puertico
again computed under its own flag for so long. I
was just like, why is this guy doing this? Like,
and you know, he was a pro statehood guy. He
really wanted he wanted everyone to fall in line. There's
(30:44):
a phrase that you use, soil o limbico no politico. Um,
can you kind of explain what that means literally and
also just how that kind of translates into the trajectory
of the story. Yeah, it means I'm an olympian, not
a politician. And that was a sign we saw at
Alberta Mercado's museum. It was kind of talked away in
(31:05):
a corner um when we asked him about it. And
there's this this really interesting story about when they were
boarding the plane to flee Puerto Rico because they needed
to train in Mexico before the Olympics because they were
afraid that if they stayed in Puerto Rico, they weren't
going to be able to go, like they would be
not allowed to leave. So they're boarding this plane to
Mexico and a stranger walks up to Mercado and he
(31:29):
hands them this sign and it's like the sign itself
is like kind of like scrawled. It's not like great penmanship,
and it's just this just random dude just made a
sign and handed it to him. And then Mercado was like,
I'm going to keep the sign, and he like would
flash it to the press and it kind of became
his motto. We don't know who the guy is. So
if you're listening and you remember doing that, feel free
(31:51):
to hit us up. We'd love to talk to you. Yes, yes,
and I know we're talking extensively about this, but when
you check out the way that Eclipse approaches all these stories,
trust us, you're only here. You're only scratching the surface
right now, fellow ridiculous historians, and you need to check
out the show as soon as you can. I mean,
(32:15):
please do us a favor and listen to the end
of this episode. You know, but but but do make
sure that the next podcast you listen to after this
episode is eclipsed UM. There is one note I wanted
to add that I wanted to ask you all about
Jean and Lane, and it's something that stood out to
me in some of the notes that you all had
(32:37):
sent us, UM, where you say, you know, looking at
the way the US had treated Puerto Rico over decades
and decades, it kind of could make sense to understand
the perspective of why Boxers would quote unquote defy the president. Right.
(32:57):
The line that's throughout was I'll say he wasn't going
to do for Puerto Rico either way, Right, What is
that perspective? Was there the idea that they would somehow
be awarded for falling in line or it would be
Geo politically favorable, or were they just like these people
don't care about is to begin that's a great question.
(33:18):
I mean, I think I think it's the latter. I
think it's just like, yeah, you know, we we can
do this, but like they don't care anyway, Why would
they care now kind of thing. I think that was
sort of the impression. There was the quesion that I
got at least of how they felt, but it was
it was very much like, you know these people who
who are like, like, are these imperialists don't really do
(33:40):
anything for Puerto Rico except things that are punitive, So
why should we Why should we listen to them? Yeah?
Mercado had this quote that we didn't get to work in,
but I really liked it. Where he was he was saying, Um,
the government wants the cage but not the animals, So
they want the land, they want the island, they don't
want the people on the island. And like being there,
(34:01):
I could feel that like Hurricane Maria like destroyed the
island and you can still tell, like the infrastructure is crumbling,
like their houses still boarded up, like it's a really
beautiful island, and everyone was so kind to us and
like welcoming, and I just like, I don't know. I
was really glad we got to talk to people who
lived there for the story, because I think if not,
(34:21):
it would have felt wrong. Yeah, wasn't that when Trump
did the photo of it to where we was just
like tossing rolls of toilet paper like a chump. Yeah,
that was bad optics on so many levels. But then
when you look at the history of the imperialism and
all of that and and what you're saying, like, I mean,
it really hits harder, especially if it's there. Can you
(34:42):
imagine optics from a bad person, I'll say it, I'll
be the one. But it exemplifies like the relationship to the
the US has with the It's just that was just
a literalization of it. It's like we'll throw you some
ship and then leave and it's like not enough, and
you need more and you need like sustained help and
you know you're never going to get it. But yeah,
it was. It was again, this is this is part
of the reason the story is so interesting was because
(35:03):
that that's to start opening up to us as we
were down there reporting and as we were putting a
story together when we got back, just like right, this
is we thought this was a sports story. This is
actually a story about like what it means to like
be a colonial subject. Almost. Yeah, just so, and this
is this is one of the things that I think
(35:24):
you all do so well. You finding, as you said
at the top of this episode, the story kind of
within the story, the facts that get kind of swept
away amid headlines and news cycles. And you know, I
don't want a fanboy too much, Bejan. But for people
who don't know, you are a pretty prolific writer, and
(35:47):
we've been widely published in let's see, I'm gonna make
it awkward to name some things in front of you.
The believer verge g Q. I think as well, and
I do want I'm sure a lot of people want
to ask you specifically, what do you see as some
of the key differences from telling his story to print
medium in comparison to telling his story in a podcasting
(36:10):
audio medium like clips. That's a great question, UM, I
will say so like, yeah, I help write the show.
I've written some episodes, um, but the majority are written
by UM, or at least the structure and dress written
by Mike Meyer, who is a fantastic writer. He's also
another like a former journalist. But I will say from
my experience, you know, writing for print magazines and blogs
(36:32):
and stuff over the last decade or so. UM, the
differences you can't like you have to both fit in
very like you have to simplify very complex ideas, and
you can't use language to like layer in many points
in a sentence. You have to like you have to
like break things down to their sort of barest essence
and then say that, um. And we spent a lot
(36:53):
of time figuring out the simplest way to say things
that still makes sense and it's still accurate and still
you know, but like it's it's difficult. I think the
thing that I've learned is I have a lot of
respect for people who write podcasts. Uh. And it's well,
it's not to say you can't like skim an article,
but you certainly can. But like listening, sometimes people will
listen a little passively or while doing other stuff, so
(37:14):
you have to like things have to be pretty dense, uh,
in terms of like grabbing you and making you pay
attention and giving you the information you need relatively quickly
in case you drift off. And you also kind of
sometimes have to real people back in and remind people
exactly it's it's it's I think it's exemplified by like
This American Life, because they that that's a radio show, right.
They have all these hooks for people to get into
(37:35):
the episodes, and I've always admired how they they layer
those in. Luckily, you know, I think podcasting is obviously
people drift off or whatever. But our episodes are like
fifteen minutes long, so it's not like you know, if
you if you miss something, it's you can go back
and get it or you're not. We have recaps, you know. Yeah,
and we're and we're uh we I know we've been
(37:57):
going a little bit long, but we were so excited
who explored this story with you all today? You've been
so generous with your time. Uh, and we if we
want to first thank you for classing up our little podcast.
Uh so can you tell us? Can you tell us
each Lane and Bijade a little bit more about where
(38:18):
people can find your work and find you online if
they'd like to learn more about your process? Great question.
Yeah for sure. Yeah you can find me online, um
at Bijean Stephen most places B I, J, A N
S T pH N. It's like Twitter or Twitch or whatever.
But yeah, I'm I'm online and know my work. Usually
I collected on my website, which is in my Twitter buyer.
(38:39):
If you google me, you find it. It's like it's
not that hard to find. And I'm at Lane Gerbig
on Twitter. Um, and that's I mean, you can google it.
But I used to have website. I didn't pay for it,
so good luck. Well, it's a website. Lately people call
them like micro site I have, I have a tumbler.
It's like, it's fine, It's just like but you know,
(39:06):
like we said, I mean, listening to the episodes, you're
gonna get a lot more perspective outside of what we
talked about here today. We're not giving you kind of
the big final conclusion here. We just wanted to kind
of tee it up and talk about some of the
ways that you guys find your stories and you tell
your stories and you know, introduced us to your characters.
But please go check out this episode and the show immediately. Yeah,
(39:26):
thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. And uh, folks,
we're gonna be tuning into Eclipse just like you. We
Uh we didn't try to negotiate for spoilers on future
seasons or episodes. We'll be listening along right there with you.
Thanks as always to our super producer Mr Max Williams,
Jean Lane, Thank you so much. Thanks of course. Uh no,
(39:50):
should we rattle off the list, Oh you know what
we should have done. We should have had Jonathan Strickland
on a tuister. We don't want to know. It's fine.
It's it's fine that we didn't do that, but thanks
to Alex Williams have composed our theme. Max Williams of
the Williams tribe, who is our super producer. We've already thanked.
Christophrostiot is here in spirit, Eve's Jeff Coat who else
(40:11):
all the hits um But you can also find Ben
and E's individuals on the Internet. I am on Instagram
exclusively at how now Noel Brown Ben Where can folks
find you? If you want a preview of the strange
things I'm getting into both on this another shows as
well as my adventures as long as I can legally
post them. You can find me on Instagram wearing a
(40:31):
burst of creativity. I'm calling myself at Ben Bulling b
A W L I N. You can find me on
Twitter where I'm at Ben Bulling h s W because
there was another been bowling. I know you man, I'll
find you. It's got a doppelganger lurking Max. Max, You're
on Twitter as well. That's that's the main, the main
reason people go to Twitter nowadays. You can find me
(40:52):
on Twitter at et l Underscore Max Williams, where I
will mostly just read tweet stuff about sports and troll
Ben Bulling because, to be honest, he fully meets it. Well,
you're you're gonna troll Lane and John after this, I
would absolutely not the lovely people. I followed both of
them on Twitter, but no, no, I would not troll them. Alright, everybody,
(41:17):
stay tuned for our next episode, where we're diving into
the story of Nancy. Wait, we'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
(41:38):
your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. Let's give it up for
our one and only super producer, the Man, the myth,
the legend. You know him, you know him, super producer
Max Williams. They called me, Yeah, well, yeah, you're an
old and I love Max too. You know, I'm trying
(00:47):
to get more in touch with my feelings, right, uh so,
nol um, You and I are fans of many, many things.
And I don't know about you, man, but were you
lucky enough to go to the Olympics when they were
held in Atlanta back in nineties six or so? I
did not, but I remember the weird little mascot that
(01:10):
probably cost a gazillion dollars. What is it is? He?
He was just sort of a thing, like it was
a non what was it? This is that thing on
Mr Show Pit Pat. He's like a non gendered kind
of pan sexual spokes thing. I think that is kind
of what izz he was was supposed to be, Like
what is it? What is it? Okay? Cool? Yeah, you
(01:30):
weren't supposed to know what it was. It was supposed
to be like draw you in to it, and then
you were spy trying to figure out what it was. Well,
and and there, and the collectible pins proliferate our thrift
shops here in the Atlanta area to this day. So yeah, man,
history is weird. That's kind of the point of our show.
So we were thinking about the Olympics for a while,
fellow ridiculous historians. We had them on our minds, and
(01:53):
not just randomly for good reason. You see, we are
diving into a little owned story about the Olympics all
the way back in nineteen eighty and we're not doing
it alone, that's correct. We are joined with the creators
and the host and the producer of Eclipse, which is
(02:16):
a weekly narrative history podcast from our good friends at
camp Side Media. Please welcome to the show, Stephen and
Lane gerbick Oh, thank you for having us. Great to
be here. This is exciting. Yeah, we definitely have done
(02:37):
plenty of Olympic episodes. There's, of course, the Olympics that
were famously in Berlin under the Nazi regime and Emily
Jesse Owens one to Hitler's chagrin in the triathlon, and
that's the one that always sticks in my mind. But this,
you know, so the Olympics have always served as kind
of like a political bargaining chip in some respect, and
(02:59):
I think we're gonna jump into another story with that
same kind of flavor today. Yeah, for sure. So when
we talk about the Olympics in nineteen eighty, there are
some folks in the audience who may remember them, may
have firsthand experience of reading, you know, the contemporaneous press
and so and so forth. But I don't think a
(03:21):
lot of people in two just know off the top
of their heads that the US actually boycott at the
Olympic Games. I didn't know until we started chatting together.
Could you tell us a little bit about how that
came to be? Yeah, of course, But no, that's a
great question. I think. Um, it has to do with
(03:41):
Jimmy Carter, the Soviet Union and Afghanistan, which you know,
you might recognize those names. Jimmy Carter is the president
of the US in and in nineteen seventy nine, I
believe the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and installed a new dictator,
so they like did a coup, Mr Carter. You know,
there's the highly Cold War. He wasn't very happy that
(04:02):
the Soviets had done that, and the Olympics is coming
up in nineteen eighties, so he was like and it
was set to be Moscow, so he was just like, well,
we're not gonna go because unless you fix this, unless
you leave Afghanistan. And Sounian was like no. So Carter
was like, Okay, everybody who's aligned with the US, don't
(04:23):
go to the Olympics. And it ended up being sixty
five countries that were just like, nah, we're not going.
And we're seeing something similar right now with Russia's invasion
of Ukraine and a lot of like you know, national
kind of sports organizations not allowing Russian participants and also
obviously not sending anyone to any sort of things that
are based in Russia. Yeah, it's like it's unfortunately timely
(04:45):
because you know, so I think I feel like we
like I please correct me if I'm wrong, but I
feel like we we do stories that like are overlooked
for a reason, like not for a reason, but they're
overlooked because like they're not always that resonant in history,
Like it's not they don't feel current all the time.
And this is it's distressing that this one feels extremely current. Yeah,
Like I think we were in Puerto Rico on the
(05:07):
ground doing reporting and there was like this big Russian
flag and it just was it just hit us in
that moment. We were like time, time is circular, like
history definitely repeats itself, doesn't repeat itself, but it does. Rhyme.
I think somebody somebody said that somebody smart to Nighted Lucas.
I know that's something else, but it's probably but yeah,
(05:27):
it's I mean like the the Winner Games, Um, I
guess I was last year, right, they did the makeup
winner Olympic anyway, but um, Russia couldn't compete because they
invaded Ukraine and it was like r OC was what
they were competing under. Actually it was because they were
aggressing at Ukra. I don't think they invaded quite then,
but it was. Yeah, so jump in real quickly. The
reason why Russia was competing under r OC was they
(05:51):
had been caught breaking into drug testing facilities at at
the IOC and changing out the samples. But Putin purposely
waited for the Olympics to end, like it was like
the week afterwards to invade you cranks. He knew he
would get probably like either get Hina in trouble or
something of that, and he actually did the same thing
when he invade Chromeia. That's interesting because he was that
(06:11):
they were definitely like making aggressive overtures at Ukraine beforehand.
But all right, well that's history. Well I don't think
we're too early in the show for it. Max hit
us with that sounds cute enough just for you right
now there it is. I guarantee like this will sound
(06:39):
this will make sense in the edit. But one thing
that really stands out to me, just before we dive
into this story, because there is a twist, we've set
up the context, but before we get to the twist,
I want to zoom out just a little bit and
hear more about eclipsed because Eclipse is taking an approach
(07:00):
that I personally quite enjoy, which is saying, let's look
at history. Let's look at not just historical events that
maybe could bear further examination, but let's look at them
in a new perspective, right from a fresh informed I
and could you tell us a little bit about the
(07:21):
inspiration that led you to create Eclipse and then lead
you to do your other work as well. I'm I'm
of course, I'm right now. I'm particularly thinking of the
Charming Killer episode from May three, which was true crime
author Sarah Wineman. Yeah, well I can tell you about
(07:41):
the genesis of Eclipse, and I think line can give
you more insight on why we choose the things we do. Um,
but yeah, the gene it was funny because, like I
they I case, I was like, hey, do you want
to host the show? And I was like, yeah, for sure.
What's it about? And they told me like a concept
and I was like, well, this makes sense, but I'm
going to change it with the other executive producer, Michael
(08:02):
Kenyon Meyer, who is not here today because he writes
the show trust to Mike. But basically we were like, Okay,
we want to do something that's that's going to be
interesting that we're actually interested in making, and so we
sort of scrapped the original concept. The thing we kept
was this is a show about stories you never knew
you never knew, so we sort of went from there. Yeah.
I think like history has such uh just there's so
(08:26):
much to dig into. If we're talking I p there's
tons of it, right, Like, there's tons of content to
pull from, and we picked stories that we want to
know more about, and normally we're searching the web, we're
we're seeing what strikes our fancy and the story about
this particular Olympics, and the stories that we choose tend
(08:48):
to hook us. So you brought up the this charming
killer story with Sarah Wineman. She was just an author
that I admired and we reached out to her and
we saw that she had a book coming up, and
I was like, true crime is popular for a reason
because it's it's it's you know, fascinating. So we're very
lucky in that we get to just follow our noses
(09:09):
and make stories out of the stuff that we find.
And that's just the benefit of having a weekly show.
As you guys probably understand, a few lots of episodes,
you can talk about lots of stuff. Well, I think
de Ben's point do that unique perspective tends to be
more of an individualized perspective of you know, people on
the ground and stories that kind of get interwoven with
much larger political events that are beyond the control of
(09:31):
an individual. But when you see it through the perspective
of that person, I think it makes it a little
more easy to kind of identify with the larger historical context. Yeah,
we're very much journalists in that sense, Like we we
go and find subjects people who live through this stuff.
Like I think one of my favorites, UM was are
we did a story about a lake that disappeared in
Louisiana and we talked to a guy who like watched
(09:53):
it happen, and you know, there was a happy ending
and whatnot and uh, which maybe that's a spoiler. I
don't know. It happened like two years ago. But we
talked to like the guy who has who saw it happened,
and then the author who like in the immediate aftermath
like flew down there and wrote about it for a
magazine and that piece, you know, like only exists basically
(10:13):
the print copies that were made, like it's not nowhere
on one OPEC. Really fascinating to talk to these people
who lived through this event kind of in two different timelines.
But yeah, so that's so that's that's I guess that's
sort of our approach. And I don't know, I feel
like we do get to follow our nos as we um.
I went to a museum like last Thanksgiving, and I
was like, oh, there's an exhibit about these two dogs,
why are they in there? And that's an episode that's
(10:34):
coming out soon, the two most famous dogs in San Francisco.
I got to do a whole story about hand farts
and the history of hand farts. We did a Hot
BEV series because we were like Hot Beverages. We kept
coming back to it because we like we were like, okay,
clearly we gotta have something better, but like we kept
we just kept coming back. But it was like, oh,
(10:55):
this is actually kind of good, like maybe we can
do this. And now it's you can listen to it
on your podcast. It's three episodes on your favorite hops.
Hell yeah, I feel like Hot Beverages are sort of
like falling out of fashion a little bit. Or maybe
I don't. I gotta hear the episode. But it seems
like everything's ice to these days, you know, I don't
know true gotta have boba, you know. I think it's
a it's fascinating point because it tells us that there
(11:19):
is so much history behind everything, even if you think
of it as something as innocuous as that little you know,
that little plastic, three pronged thing that goes in the
center of pizza like that. I'm sure that yeah, sure,
pizza table, thank you. I'm sure that thing has like
some story. And there's some inventors somewhere who is kind
(11:42):
of low key famous in the field of pizza delivery.
I could have sworn I saw a life hack of
what that thing is. Actually, it keeps the pizza from
getting crushed, right, like that's GE's gotta It keeps the box,
gives the box something to do with. But but surely
it has a secondary use, right, And it's a little yeah,
you're tiny figurines. You can put a football on it maybe? Yeah. See.
(12:06):
I like where I like the way we're all thinking. Right,
this is almost like one of those weird tech startup
interview questions what could you do with the little pizza day?
But the reason um at least I personally wanted to
(12:27):
ask about process is primarily because I see the explorations
go deep every time and go in so many different directions.
So the nineteen eighty Olympics, I I'm gonna be honest,
I'll be absolutely candid. I vaguely thought I think Carter
(12:49):
was president then, but I didn't know. I wasn't around,
And then to hear that the US boycotted those Olympics,
And as you said, like, um, what sixty five countries?
That that seems like a story that would have already
been bigger news than than I had assumed in two.
But that's not the twist because our stute listeners are
(13:11):
gonna are gonna notice that you had earlier said, Lane,
we were in Puerto Rico getting taped. So one of
the first questions they would have, right, I hope apologies
listeners if I'm assuming too much, but I would hope
one of the questions would be like, why are we
in Puerto Rico? Right? The sound there it is, Well, yeah,
(13:36):
what's going on on the ground? Well, Benn and Nolf
and Max producer, Max, have I got a story for you? Um,
the big So what if I told you, you know
that there was a boycott, you know, sixty five countries
boycotted the nine Olympics held in Moscow, and you know
the US was in charge of the boycott. What if
(13:58):
I told you American citizen went to that Olympics and competed, right,
blow you in mind? Yeah, that's another I don't know
if we do the law and order drop or if
we do the Scooby Doo, sound like we gotta do
the like recreated law and order. Drop. We don't have
the right. Yeah, we can't get we don't have the
rights to it. I trust your test I trust it's
(14:19):
going to come through the edit. Um. But no, this
is true story. This is a true story, um. And
it's basically it's the The athletes were three boxers from
Puerto Rico. They're a boxing team and they went to
the Olympics because they qualified, and they were like it
was interesting because they didn't think they were doing anything political,
Like they saw themselves as not political and just athletes.
(14:41):
And there was a whole thing about this. But yeah,
Lane and I went down to Puerto Rico with our
translator Alan, and we got the story. So this like
when you're we should mention, I believe you were you
all making this during the pandemic, like during the height
of it, as an and we went at pandemic. Yeah,
(15:06):
we went, um in March recently, back when the pandemic
had its fresh car smell, right and everybody, So what
was when you were traveling? How did you how did
you find these boxers the internet? Um? I think originally
I like contact find or find the story. You know,
(15:27):
I'm interested, not to be too Jodie Foster about it,
but I'm interested in the contact aspect. I think, uh, Basion,
correct me if I'm wrong. I think our producer Joe
just like went really far into the Internet because, like
I mean, these gentlemen don't really have huge social media presences.
So we have like a document with a bunch of
links that are like this could be his nephew, or
(15:48):
I think this is a different like Luise, but maybe
we should check it out. And I think it just
proved really fruitful, and we got our translator slash stringer
Alan to reach out and he became one of the
boys by the end of the trip because he was
just like cracking a beer with with our with our
subjects and yeah, shooting the ship. The beer that in
(16:09):
fact was was named for their their like athletic exploits.
So the beer is called Media if you've heard of it, um,
And it was for these three boxers because they like
they were incredible boxers and they meddled at the Pan
American Games in which qualified them for the Olympics. So
the beer is called Media and it's still around and
you can drink it. It's actually delicious, pretty nice, lightly
(16:30):
drink so much of it. Yeah, it's fantastic. I found
a place in Brooklyn then has it just like a
random bar. It's pretty good, man. The story is actually
is it's very interesting. It's not just that there were
like US citizens going to the Olympics or that they
were breaking the boycott, because obviously it's both of those things,
but it's we realized in the course of telling the story,
it's like it's actually more of a story about international
(16:52):
politics and Puerto Rican sovereignty and like what it means
to be, like what it means to compete as a
nation kind of because Puerto Rico wasn't even an American
you know, territory or whatever it is until nineteen seventeen.
I want to say, yeah, something like that. I think
I believe it had to do with some there was
a war and it was a spoil of war if
I'm not mistaken. But yeah, despite that history, and you
(17:14):
know it was it was you know, colony the US
for a while, or it was there was a more
colonial relationship, I should say. In any case, Puerto Rico
has also been competing as itself on the international stage
since night, like since the Olympics, which happened immediately after
World War Two, but like it was one of those
things where it's kind of a quirk of history because
(17:36):
the reason port even gets to do that is because
of one like intrepid guy at the International Olympics Committee
who was like, hey, it'll be told The US government
was like, hey, it'll be seen as a really like
gracious thing for you to do. You just fought against imperialism.
Why are you doing this at home? You should let
Puerto Rico compete is itself, because they really wanted to,
and that's like how that started. So Puerto Rico has
its own Olympic committee and it's own Olympic team, and
(17:58):
it's an Olympic funding which is you know, part of
the reason why them deciding to defind the boycott was
so dramatic. So it wasn't like they didn't get the memo.
It was an active choice based on presidences. And the
whole thing was like the governor of the island of
the time. Uh, this guy named Carlos Fromier Barcelo was
not happy. He was he because like the the other
(18:20):
thing is like this is all I'm sorry this is
this is I hope this is interesting, but I'm gonna
infod up first. Perfect. But the whole thing was like
they're they're like three schools, three main schools. I thought
there are any more, obviously, but three main schools of
political thought in Puerto Rico. And it's basically has to
do with a relationship with the US. So there are
people who wanted to be a state. There are people
(18:40):
who wanted to remain a territory. There are people who
wanted to be its own nation, like its own island nation.
And obviously, like the stuff gets sort of worked out
in political referendums here and there. But at the time,
the guy Barcelo was a pro US statehood guy. So
these boxers were like, Okay, we we want to go
to our Olympics because we're boxers, which means we don't
(19:01):
we only get one shot because otherwise because you want
to go pro and make money. Hey, but be your
career isn't that long, you know, even the best boxers,
it's you just don't last long because you're getting hit
in the head all the time. And so they were like,
we want to go to our Olympics. And this was
a big deal um and so they like sort of
scrounged up the money to do it, like they it's
like they did like bootleg kickstarter, just asking people for cash,
I think. And the basketball team didn't get to go,
(19:24):
but they were they also qualified for the Olympics. But
anyway they go and it's just like okay, now we're
now we're athletes were competing there, but it's it's like
a really really interesting story about statehood and about nationalism.
And then there's the aftermath, which we also talked about,
but I'll leave that to Lane. And it's not like
America has always done super right by Puerto Rico. That's
(19:45):
an understanding. Yeah, I mean, I know, I'm sorry I'm
being diplomatic here because we're talking about diplomacy, but you know,
I mean, I don't see this necessarily as an outright
act of protest because it was based on precedent. But
do you think there was an element of protest in
this as well that even flew in the face of
(20:05):
some of the people in power within Puerto Rico, as
you say, who had a political end of their own.
I think it's for sure, and act, I mean, I
think our boxers would argue that it wasn't. But when
we talked to them, they were mad at the U. S.
Government and they still are in some ways because this
was their shot, this was their chance, and they were
(20:26):
met the U. S. Government and these political relations were
meddling so much that it's impacting their personal lives and
their dreams and their hopes. So I think, yeah, the
mere act of going it has to be a political act,
even if you say it's not. Yeah, I agree with that, um,
And I think it's I think notably, you can say, like,
even if they don't believe it, you can say that
(20:46):
it was because a lot of people in the island
still remember them and like remember like what they did, uh,
And they mostly remember the Pan American Games where they
did really well, but like people still remember the nineteen Olympics,
like older people like this one guy we spoke to
a namation. I almost like, hell, yeah, we're so proud
of this guy. You know. Can we introduce our our
heroes here? Um, just a little bit of background and
(21:06):
names at the very least, and who these guys were. Yeah.
So we three boxers. First, we got Alberto de Mercado,
who is our team captain in some ways. He's leading
the charge. He's the most bold and brash of the three.
And he has a museum that we visited, his home museum.
He lives above it below It is this like it's
(21:29):
this super packed museum with like newspaper clippings and awards
and like just memorabilia from his you know what is
it beon like forty forty years ago the Olympics happened,
but also professional career too. It's kind of a shrine.
That's amazing. That's I mean college a museum or is trining,
(21:50):
But that's sort of in some ways, that's kind of
a dream job, right, I live above my museum. It's
you know, I think that's kind of It's definitely interesting
because the museum him was a gift from the Puerto
Rican government, which is complicated because that only happened like
two years ago, oh yeah before. Yeah, so there's like
(22:13):
there's a lot of feelings. They have a lot of
feelings about their own government too. But our second boxer
is Jose Molina, who was like he was a light heavyweight.
I think Mercado was like a flyweight something like that,
and Mollina was the heaviest light heavyweight great boxer. But
he he you know, he lives like with his family. Like,
(22:33):
so one thing to understand is like they half of
the stories about how they had to like live afterward,
after like going to the Olympics and making this big
name for themselves. And the third boxer is Luis Pizzaro,
who was the youngest. He was like he was he
must have been like eighteen or something. He was like
sixteen at the time. He was super he was a teenager.
He like, yeah, I was worried about going to prom
(22:56):
at that age, he's worrying about competing in the Olympics
kind of thing. A real phenomen I mean, like like
the high hopes hi hopes for this kid. Yeah, and
and the geopolitical ramifications of being of being in the Olympics.
That's I mean, that's a trip for sure. I love
you point out that a great deal of the story
is about the aftermath, which we've alluded to just just
(23:20):
a bit here. The question then becomes, like, as you said,
I would agree that on some level, all acts are
inherently political acts, depending on the perspective when wants the
place them in. But with this, what I'm hearing is
these three guys who are scrappy, right, and say, hey,
we're not We're not giving up our chants because we're
(23:42):
well aware of how short of boxing career can be.
They say, okay, we hear you one of the world's
most dangerous superpowers, but we're going and then we're coming back.
Were there like attempts at consequences or was know Jimmy
Carter's got that stereotype of being kind of a milk dose,
(24:03):
but did he was going to ask? A boycott isn't
inherently litigious. I mean it's more of like a symbolic act, right,
like is there is they're built in are they're built
in consequences for defying a quote unquote boycott. It's not
the same as like an embargo. I mean it's more
of like a an agreement that you can make verbally
and everyone just like we're patriotic, so obviously we're not
gonna do it, sort of like crossing a picket line. Yeah,
(24:25):
I think it was like it was a soft power move,
like there's no they're not getting arrested when they get
off the plane when they come back, but like their countrymen,
like a lot was at stake for them to go
to Russia because of the relationship with the US just
like you know, like you said, like unwritten these like
these unwritten laws that you're breaking because the US government
(24:48):
is providing them federal resources like Medicare, Medicaid. Like if
they go and they harm this relationship, then their neighbors
and their families might not have access to the the
resources that they need. So that was kind of the
pushback that they were getting when they were deciding to go,
and then when they came back. Um, I think there
were different camps about whether or not it was worth it. Yeah, yeah,
(25:12):
but that there was like a real, real implicit threat
they were getting. They were getting threats to like their
um the government perto Rican government was like pressuring Mercado's
parents for example, and his parents were like, you can
go again in four years. Just wait. Um there was
at least one bomb threat. I think we we heard
from them. Um Marcado lost his job and I think
Molina's job was threatened to because they're not professional boxers
(25:35):
at this time. They're amateurs, right, because the Olympics is
an amateur It's like the Olympics is an amateur competition specifically,
and so if you go pro, you can't compete the Olympics.
But it's this was also like I think, I think
the few years, the four years before I want to
say seventy six was um like I think it was
one of the It was televised, and like, these boxers
were boxing in front of a huge international audience, and
(25:57):
so when they went pro after the Olympics, they got
huge big are much bigger paid it. So there's like
a real financial incentive to compete in the Olympics as
a boxer because you can demand bigger purses and better fights.
So like and I mean, like maybe unlike other sports
like football for example, I mean that really is the
door opener for a professional career, is being a on
the on the Olympic team. But like film festivals for example,
(26:19):
they are qualifying events, Like in order to be considered
for the oscar as, you have to win or compete
within like some other accepted you know, film festival. That's
the case here as well. Can you talk about the
games that led to their qualification for the Olympics. Yeah,
the main ones were probably the Pan American Games in
seventy nine, which happens on a four year cycle. It's
(26:40):
a it follows the Olympic charter. It's the same sort
of event. And I believe I think two of them
won goal. They got a bunch of medals. They came
back with a couple of goals, seven medals total, couple golds,
some silver's and appreciate something like that better than I've done,
right and name uh and it's it was. I mean,
(27:01):
it's a big deal. It's the same, it's the same
sort of but it's like it's it's region it's a
more regional games. Um, the US does actually compete in
the Pan American Games, so these I think one of
the subtexts is that these boxers were competing against like
other American citizens in the games for like a spot
on the podium, and all of those people who competed
(27:22):
for the US, like the basketball team and the boxing
team or whatever, they didn't get to go to the Olympics.
And you know, there's a there's a really poign in
ESPN article about it from like the early two thousands
that like talks to those people, those boxers, and then
they're really like upset that they didn't get to go
because like it derailed their careers in a in a sense,
I mean because you still you know, you go pro
and things sometimes work out. So there's something that really
(27:49):
catches me about this story, even just cursory looking into
it before talking to the experts here on this show.
And it is exactly what you described, John, the larger
context for anyone who maybe is listening and is not
familiar with US Puerto Rican relationships intentions for a very
(28:12):
very long time, longer than any of the five of
us in the show today have been alive. There have
been those three camps, right, and sometimes they fluctuate and strength,
pushing for statehood, pushing for remaining a territory, or pushing
for independence. But I've been lucky enough to go to
Puerto Rico in the in the past, and when people
(28:34):
are in there, I think, I think folks forget that
being a territory brings its own kind of inherent baked
in inequalities. Right. I'm multiple multiple levels, you know. And
when we hear these boxers say, Okay, I am an athlete,
I am not a politician. Don't put that on me.
(28:56):
Did you feel that they held to that that forty
years on or did you feel that they they had
a particular position in this regard as they look back
on the events of I mean, I think I asked
uh Alberto if he ever considered running for office because
he was such a public facing figure. He did make
(29:18):
these big, the big moves um on the international level,
and he didn't have any interest in that. I think
they all really wanted to be boxers because this was
their their things, is their their dream. And the other two,
I mean, Louise moved to Massachusetts, so he's not in
Puerto Rico anymore. And Molina is perfectly content to you know,
(29:39):
he worked a job at a shipyard and retired, and
he helped his brother become a world champion. I mean,
I would say he's political, but I don't think he
you know, that's not what he wants to be known for.
I think he wants to be known for being a
a prideful like a person who did his country proud.
(30:00):
And his country is not the US, it's Puerto Rico. Yeah,
And I believe in the the PanAm Games, the governor
kind of got a bad rap because he wanted to
fly the American flag and not the Puerto Rican So
that's that is a legal thing, like legally you're not
allowed to fly the Puerto Rican flag by itself. You
have to fly beside or underneath the American flag. Okay,
(30:21):
but but still, but if it flew in the yeah,
he got bood for like twelve minutes, like he couldn't
give a speech. But this this also flew in the
face of like, you know, all of that precedent, since
he tried to pull the stunt, you know, because Puertico
again computed under its own flag for so long. I
was just like, why is this guy doing this? Like,
and you know, he was a pro statehood guy. He
really wanted he wanted everyone to fall in line. There's
(30:44):
a phrase that you use, soil o limbico no politico. Um,
can you kind of explain what that means literally and
also just how that kind of translates into the trajectory
of the story. Yeah, it means I'm an olympian, not
a politician. And that was a sign we saw at
Alberta Mercado's museum. It was kind of talked away in
(31:05):
a corner um when we asked him about it. And
there's this this really interesting story about when they were
boarding the plane to flee Puerto Rico because they needed
to train in Mexico before the Olympics because they were
afraid that if they stayed in Puerto Rico, they weren't
going to be able to go, like they would be
not allowed to leave. So they're boarding this plane to
Mexico and a stranger walks up to Mercado and he
(31:29):
hands them this sign and it's like the sign itself
is like kind of like scrawled. It's not like great penmanship,
and it's just this just random dude just made a
sign and handed it to him. And then Mercado was like,
I'm going to keep the sign, and he like would
flash it to the press and it kind of became
his motto. We don't know who the guy is. So
if you're listening and you remember doing that, feel free
(31:51):
to hit us up. We'd love to talk to you. Yes, yes,
and I know we're talking extensively about this, but when
you check out the way that Eclipse approaches all these stories,
trust us, you're only here. You're only scratching the surface
right now, fellow ridiculous historians, and you need to check
out the show as soon as you can. I mean,
(32:15):
please do us a favor and listen to the end
of this episode. You know, but but but do make
sure that the next podcast you listen to after this
episode is eclipsed UM. There is one note I wanted
to add that I wanted to ask you all about
Jean and Lane, and it's something that stood out to
me in some of the notes that you all had
(32:37):
sent us, UM, where you say, you know, looking at
the way the US had treated Puerto Rico over decades
and decades, it kind of could make sense to understand
the perspective of why Boxers would quote unquote defy the president. Right.
(32:57):
The line that's throughout was I'll say he wasn't going
to do for Puerto Rico either way, Right, What is
that perspective? Was there the idea that they would somehow
be awarded for falling in line or it would be
Geo politically favorable, or were they just like these people
don't care about is to begin that's a great question.
(33:18):
I mean, I think I think it's the latter. I
think it's just like, yeah, you know, we we can
do this, but like they don't care anyway, Why would
they care now kind of thing. I think that was
sort of the impression. There was the quesion that I
got at least of how they felt, but it was
it was very much like, you know these people who
who are like, like, are these imperialists don't really do
(33:40):
anything for Puerto Rico except things that are punitive, So
why should we Why should we listen to them? Yeah?
Mercado had this quote that we didn't get to work in,
but I really liked it. Where he was he was saying, Um,
the government wants the cage but not the animals, So
they want the land, they want the island, they don't
want the people on the island. And like being there,
(34:01):
I could feel that like Hurricane Maria like destroyed the
island and you can still tell, like the infrastructure is crumbling,
like their houses still boarded up, like it's a really
beautiful island, and everyone was so kind to us and
like welcoming, and I just like, I don't know. I
was really glad we got to talk to people who
lived there for the story, because I think if not,
(34:21):
it would have felt wrong. Yeah, wasn't that when Trump
did the photo of it to where we was just
like tossing rolls of toilet paper like a chump. Yeah,
that was bad optics on so many levels. But then
when you look at the history of the imperialism and
all of that and and what you're saying, like, I mean,
it really hits harder, especially if it's there. Can you
(34:42):
imagine optics from a bad person, I'll say it, I'll
be the one. But it exemplifies like the relationship to the
the US has with the It's just that was just
a literalization of it. It's like we'll throw you some
ship and then leave and it's like not enough, and
you need more and you need like sustained help and
you know you're never going to get it. But yeah,
it was. It was again, this is this is part
of the reason the story is so interesting was because
(35:03):
that that's to start opening up to us as we
were down there reporting and as we were putting a
story together when we got back, just like right, this
is we thought this was a sports story. This is
actually a story about like what it means to like
be a colonial subject. Almost. Yeah, just so, and this
is this is one of the things that I think
(35:24):
you all do so well. You finding, as you said
at the top of this episode, the story kind of
within the story, the facts that get kind of swept
away amid headlines and news cycles. And you know, I
don't want a fanboy too much, Bejan. But for people
who don't know, you are a pretty prolific writer, and
(35:47):
we've been widely published in let's see, I'm gonna make
it awkward to name some things in front of you.
The believer verge g Q. I think as well, and
I do want I'm sure a lot of people want
to ask you specifically, what do you see as some
of the key differences from telling his story to print
medium in comparison to telling his story in a podcasting
(36:10):
audio medium like clips. That's a great question, UM, I
will say so like, yeah, I help write the show.
I've written some episodes, um, but the majority are written
by UM, or at least the structure and dress written
by Mike Meyer, who is a fantastic writer. He's also
another like a former journalist. But I will say from
my experience, you know, writing for print magazines and blogs
(36:32):
and stuff over the last decade or so. UM, the
differences you can't like you have to both fit in
very like you have to simplify very complex ideas, and
you can't use language to like layer in many points
in a sentence. You have to like you have to
like break things down to their sort of barest essence
and then say that, um. And we spent a lot
(36:53):
of time figuring out the simplest way to say things
that still makes sense and it's still accurate and still
you know, but like it's it's difficult. I think the
thing that I've learned is I have a lot of
respect for people who write podcasts. Uh. And it's well,
it's not to say you can't like skim an article,
but you certainly can. But like listening, sometimes people will
listen a little passively or while doing other stuff, so
(37:14):
you have to like things have to be pretty dense, uh,
in terms of like grabbing you and making you pay
attention and giving you the information you need relatively quickly
in case you drift off. And you also kind of
sometimes have to real people back in and remind people
exactly it's it's it's I think it's exemplified by like
This American Life, because they that that's a radio show, right.
They have all these hooks for people to get into
(37:35):
the episodes, and I've always admired how they they layer
those in. Luckily, you know, I think podcasting is obviously
people drift off or whatever. But our episodes are like
fifteen minutes long, so it's not like you know, if
you if you miss something, it's you can go back
and get it or you're not. We have recaps, you know. Yeah,
and we're and we're uh we I know we've been
(37:57):
going a little bit long, but we were so excited
who explored this story with you all today? You've been
so generous with your time. Uh, and we if we
want to first thank you for classing up our little podcast.
Uh so can you tell us? Can you tell us
each Lane and Bijade a little bit more about where
(38:18):
people can find your work and find you online if
they'd like to learn more about your process? Great question.
Yeah for sure. Yeah you can find me online, um
at Bijean Stephen most places B I, J, A N
S T pH N. It's like Twitter or Twitch or whatever.
But yeah, I'm I'm online and know my work. Usually
I collected on my website, which is in my Twitter buyer.
(38:39):
If you google me, you find it. It's like it's
not that hard to find. And I'm at Lane Gerbig
on Twitter. Um, and that's I mean, you can google it.
But I used to have website. I didn't pay for it,
so good luck. Well, it's a website. Lately people call
them like micro site I have, I have a tumbler.
It's like, it's fine, It's just like but you know,
(39:06):
like we said, I mean, listening to the episodes, you're
gonna get a lot more perspective outside of what we
talked about here today. We're not giving you kind of
the big final conclusion here. We just wanted to kind
of tee it up and talk about some of the
ways that you guys find your stories and you tell
your stories and you know, introduced us to your characters.
But please go check out this episode and the show immediately. Yeah,
(39:26):
thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. And uh, folks,
we're gonna be tuning into Eclipse just like you. We
Uh we didn't try to negotiate for spoilers on future
seasons or episodes. We'll be listening along right there with you.
Thanks as always to our super producer Mr Max Williams,
Jean Lane, Thank you so much. Thanks of course. Uh no,
(39:50):
should we rattle off the list, Oh you know what
we should have done. We should have had Jonathan Strickland
on a tuister. We don't want to know. It's fine.
It's it's fine that we didn't do that, but thanks
to Alex Williams have composed our theme. Max Williams of
the Williams tribe, who is our super producer. We've already thanked.
Christophrostiot is here in spirit, Eve's Jeff Coat who else
(40:11):
all the hits um But you can also find Ben
and E's individuals on the Internet. I am on Instagram
exclusively at how now Noel Brown Ben Where can folks
find you? If you want a preview of the strange
things I'm getting into both on this another shows as
well as my adventures as long as I can legally
post them. You can find me on Instagram wearing a
(40:31):
burst of creativity. I'm calling myself at Ben Bulling b
A W L I N. You can find me on
Twitter where I'm at Ben Bulling h s W because
there was another been bowling. I know you man, I'll
find you. It's got a doppelganger lurking Max. Max, You're
on Twitter as well. That's that's the main, the main
reason people go to Twitter nowadays. You can find me
(40:52):
on Twitter at et l Underscore Max Williams, where I
will mostly just read tweet stuff about sports and troll
Ben Bulling because, to be honest, he fully meets it. Well,
you're you're gonna troll Lane and John after this, I
would absolutely not the lovely people. I followed both of
them on Twitter, but no, no, I would not troll them. Alright, everybody,
(41:17):
stay tuned for our next episode, where we're diving into
the story of Nancy. Wait, we'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
(41:38):
your favorite shows.
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