November 7, 2024 • 42 mins
OK, imagine this: you've been captured by a neighboring civilization, hauled off to an unfamiliar city, and your captors tell you: "Hold up, we're not going to kill you yet. In fact, if you can win this game in front of our audience, we will let you live." In part two of our continuing series the world's weirdest sports, Ben, Noel and Max explore the brutal, bloody, and often lethal Mesoamerican sport loosely known as "the Ball Game," a religious event wherein losing the match often meant losing your life.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show,
(00:28):
Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in.
Let's hear, let's hear some some boo and some kashi.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was gonna say, bosh, you know, I remember ally
g he'd say.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'd love to introduce our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Fresh off on Magnificent Recovery. I am just between these episodes,
gotten from sick to completely healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
He bounced back like some sort of whiffle ball or
a tether ball, perhaps still having the audition.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Wish you the best, Max. Please Ridiculous Historians, allow me
to reintroduce myself. My name is Ben. He joined by
as always the number one, the myth, the man, the legend,
mister Noel.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Brown aka nove. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We are coming to you live and direct as we record.
It is Tuesday, November fifth, here in the just another
day here in the United States of America, a bold,
if imperfect experiment. We as you're hearing this, a couple
(01:45):
of other things may have changed. We we don't know
how everything's gonna work out, and we are not, you know,
a polemical show. No We are, however, very interested in
ridiculous things. And I gotta say, I don't know how
this will age you guys, but uh, politics is.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Kind of a sport, oh boy, is it? Ever it's
a love sports. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I actually
saw I can't remember who posted this. It was a tweeter.
Maybe it was even a tweet referencing something that somebody said,
but no, anywal it was. It was my buddy, Jason Pargin.
I don't actually know, but I really love his content
a lot. Yeah, writer John dies in the end, Yeah, exactly.
Regular guests on Daily Zeitgeist, as are yourself, as is yourself? Then,
(02:33):
but he said something to the effect of, like politics
has gotten this point where it's not even about actually
being informed. It's just another kind of reality show ask
sort of like pissing contest in a way of being
the quote unquote winner. And you know, I've certainly been
looking in the last few days for intensely non political
things to listen to. So we would like to be
(02:53):
that thing for you today, for sure. But I'm with
you one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Then.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The reason we're making that sports comparison in the first
place is because this, this episode, folks, started as a
an artifact of curiosity, right, and we thought it would
be a one part, one and done, you know, to
(03:19):
quote our friend Dan Harmon from Rick and Morty, we
thought it would be like a classic in and out,
you know, not affecting the mythos. But we got in
a bit over our heads when we started looking at
the world's weirdest sports. We struck a chord with one
(03:39):
another and hopefully with you. We spent the entire first
episode just talking about buzkashi, which, by the way, I'm
still super bullish on those.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
So are you the goat? Are you goated?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
If you are the best at snatching the goat?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I learned so much more to just going into this
like I. So we cut a lot of the philosophical
and geopolitical implications of buzkashi, the national sport of Afghanistan.
We cut a lot of it because we thought we
(04:26):
were gonna have a one and done episode. And then
I think we reached the point together as a triumvirate
where we said hang on and hang on a tick,
I go on a tck. We did have some good
cartoonish British accents in there, too.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Oh, of course that's the best part of the show.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And just as by way of a quick reminder of
muskashi being the national sport of Afghanistan, we're in individuals
a top horseback by quite aggressively for a goat skin,
a goat sort of carcass type floppy thing in more
recent years has been replaced by maybe a more vegan alternative.
(05:08):
But yeah, there's a giant sort of fish bowl thing
in the middle, I guess, more of like a dog bowl,
and that is the goal and people are often throwing
themselves into it along with the goat skin, and it's
pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, and you made the excellent comparison to polo. You
also you also noted something I was listening back to
and I loved this you you noted, Hey, in US
football people throw around a pig skin.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So one of the notes that we landed on in
our previous exploration concerned the idea of perspective, the importance
of having empathy, having the ability to realize that something
may seem odd or even disturbing to an outside observer.
(06:03):
It might seem weird, like cough cough going to a
cricket game and not knowing what's going on.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Cough cough.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
But but all right, all right, it's illegal for you
to ask me that. It is not illegal to ask
me that because I told you I'm a rule breaker. Yeah. Man. Also,
I have no idea what's going off with cricket. I
watch it and I clap like the distant relative adder reunion.
(06:33):
There's a wicket and a bowler, a sticky wicket.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, that's different, and that's sort of like a conundrum,
which is what many of us might find ourselves in today.
But yeah, the wicket is the bat is the flat
bat also probably good for the people down The thing
that get the bat is what you use to hit
the wicket.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Oh, the wicket is like the t ball stand.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
The wickets like the croquet goal.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
For all these years thought that the wicket would the
bat the beasts the beat, and the bowler is like
the pitcher.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Right, okay, okay, one thing.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You nailed it, guys. Also, cricket is tremendously popular and
may seem confusing to people unfamiliar. Also, to be honest,
baseball is probably confusing to people who are not from
the West or Japan.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I will say, though, as a non sporto, I do.
Maybe it's just because it was the sport that my
mom really enjoyed. I have always found it to be
a little more understandable than football as many times, and
I do understand football, but it just isn't as intuitive
to me. Baseball, I think is probably partly why it's
so popular. Is a little bit more simple, you know.
I mean, once again, the stats, that's different, but the
(07:49):
actual rules not too hard to wrap your head around.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
You hit the ball, you run the basis, you try
to get all around the bases. Football there's a lot
of minutia, minutia, intricacies, pedantics, trench warfare.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
You've got to be a real head to get into
the weeds.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Do you get into the trenches with the newest of
like the big sports in America, Like, it's a pretty
recent invention, late eighteen hundreds, so it's.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Been great for commercials. And yeah, you really have to
get your head in the game and hote traumatic brain injuries,
get a concussion.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And so we will not say we are judging weird sports,
will say instead that we acknowledge things can look different
from the outside and some of these endeavors that people
participate in may seem odd because you have not played
(08:43):
the game right, just just like any other recreational endeavor.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, and also anytime we kind of dig through the
annals of history and look at you know, cultural differences
and things that may not have aged well over time,
and maybe you're no longer you know, practiced, it's important
not to judge, you know, something too harshly for the
era that it was taking place in, and also for
you know, the part of the world, the way that
(09:11):
it was separated from maybe other cultures, and the way
things kind of develop in a vacuum sometimes, especially in
the in the distant past.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Heck, yeah, brother, let's go to meso America. Back in
the day, we proudly present to you a different sort
of ballgame loosely called the ball game.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I know it well, I mean we talked to I
can't remember it was it stuff that I want you
to know. It must have been recently where we were
talking about just how intuitive it is for a human
to see a stick on the ground and a round
object and just be like, how can I make this
into a competition, Because when we look at it now
and see sports as this Titanic industry, generating gazillions of dollars.
(09:53):
It's easy to lose sight of the fact that most
of it is based on very simple kind of parallel
thinking act of human beings, where it's like, I see
that thing, and I see that thing. Let's put them
together and figure out a way that we can play.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Shout out by the way to everyone who is listening
to this. On a walk and just saw a good stick.
That's a stick right there, man, that's a good stick
right there. You've got to pick it up, all right,
do the Gandalf thing? Oh man. This game, loosely called
the ballgame, was played by every Mesoamerican civilization as far
(10:27):
as we can tell. It was invented sometime in like
twenty five hundred to one hundred BCE, So this game
predates the story of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I also, I think it's one of those things where, again,
because of the parallel thinking, those numbers may vary. There's
a really great article on Alice Obscura that dates it
back to the Olmec around fifteen hundred BC in the
central Gulf coast of.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Mexico, right, yeah, And the so it's tricky to understand
how BC works. The lower number on BC is closer
to the modern day, so twenty five hundred to the
Olmec period to one our BCE still very very old.
(11:17):
This was so popular. This was like the on the
level of soccer today or football for the rest of
the world. We don't know a ton about it, but
we do know people were super into it and it
was super disturbing. The rules of the game are still
(11:38):
something scholars will argue about, but it was probably kind
of like racquetball, like you had to keep the ball
in play. We do know, to your point, Noal, that
these courts where this game was played, whatever it was called,
(11:59):
they became similar to stadiums that you would see in
major US cities today. They were a feature of the
urban landscape. And if we look at how people tried
to play the game, then we have to look at
the descendant of the game, something called ulama. We do
(12:23):
know these players would strike the ball with their hips,
they may have used four arms. Occasionally, they might have bats,
and they were always trying to get the ball, whatever
it was, through a stone circle placed on either side
(12:44):
of the court. Pretty difficult, but I think it'll remind
a lot of us of basketball if you died when
you lost, or.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Quidditch, if you're Harry Potter, I believe they weren't they
tossing those things through like a square, circlegular kind of
goal target.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What's what's the thing you have to get in quidditch?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
The snitch, the golden snitch it yeah, it is, Yeah,
that's the the sneach. I think it's the snitch. It's
like a weird little bug thing that they release and
that's part of the game. But then you also have
like a ball, it's more like a rugby ball that
they did, you know, on the broom top to these
circular goals.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
In the ballgame throughout ancient meso America or early meso America. Uh,
the ball was solid rubber and could weigh as much
as nine pounds. Yeah, so people are beefy four arms
for them, yeah, or broken four arms people are people
(13:43):
are fighting. The The only real thing, the only real
consistent rule we know is that the two teams had
to fight each other to get the ball through one
of the rings on the court. And if someone got
an a goal broken, if someone you know, knocked their
forearm or got hit in the head, didn't matter.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I mean, you might argue that was a feature, not
a bug, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I mean, this really is tantamount to the kind of
blood sport we see with gladiator battles. Not to mention
the religious implications of this band. You found some really
cool stuff about how this was part of lore, like
the idea of this sport being played between members of
(14:34):
you know, the human race and like lords of the underworld.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Ah, yes, this is true. In Mesoamerican mythology, the ballgame
functioned as an important socio religious ritual. Like you were saying, Noel,
it's the story of the hero twins Hondapuh and vocal
(15:00):
on the pull. The part of my pronunciation, guy is
my key chase pretty loose these days. This is a
pair of awesome dudes who super pissed off Shibbalba, which
is the underworld and the god thereof.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
This is in Mayan culture, to my understanding, and it
comes for you can read a lot of this if
you want to go a little deeper. I think you
can find this sort of creation myth in a tome
called the popol Vu, which is also a really interesting
kind of gothy post punk band. I always really liked
this name and did not know where it came from.
And it is a band called popole Vu.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Way No Way. I got to tell you man. You know,
I had a life before the podcasting stuff, and I
lived in Central America for a time, and the culture,
the ancient culture there still persist. I have never watched
the game in person. But as as you note, there
(16:04):
is religious significance to this. Uh, there is social significance
to this if you if you follow the mythology. These
two brothers, Haun and the club who were you know
again heroes. Uh, they were tricked into descending toward the
underworld and then they had to play this game. And
(16:28):
because one of the hero twins lost the game, he
had his head cut off.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The ultimate penalty.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
It is to backtrack really quickly to a previous tangent.
Popol Vu.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
The band is actually more of like an electronic German
kraft rock band, which is not a term of derision.
It is a genre and the folks in that part
of the world were it proudly bands like Craftwork and
NOI so do check out popol Vu. I actually am
going to make a note to myself. This is one
that I'm not super very well versed in.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Also, while we're at it, everybody look forward to our
future two part episode on women in electronic.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Thanks Ben, Yeah, I'm working on that one.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It's a very near and dear topic to me, so
we should have that one out in a week or two.
But sorry, Ben, decapitation. We're bearing the lead here, or
maybe we're not. I just derailed the lead. But this
was a common penalty for being the loser. And then
I got to follow up question, was this a team sport?
Were there entire teams that were executed as the results
(17:31):
of losing?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yes, there were teams. They were not always consenting participants.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Ah, because like the Gladiator connection.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So imagine if you're playing racquetball with a team, right,
and you have to you have to try to get
this heavy rubber ball through this stone goal, and you
know that if you don't accomplish the win, you might
be sacrificed. In at least a few instances, the ballgame
(18:17):
was a proxy for war, like warring kingdoms would say, hey,
let's settle this on the court.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That could be in issues of succession, It could be
issues of territory, you know, disputes over territory and oftentimes
to your point about non consensual, you know, participation in
this game really serious connection to the gladiator thing, because
oftentimes slaves or captives, prisoners of war were forced to
(18:47):
fight for their lives in this competitive sport.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yes, and shout out to everybody who just immediately thought
of Apocalypto. Do you remember that film? I think you know.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I never saw it because I think Mel Gibson's an asshole.
But I heard it's really good and that it actually
is pretty interesting, and I don't know is it problematic.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I don't remember hearing that aspect about it.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I know he's done some problematic things in terms of
his depictions of indigenous people.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
But did you enjoy the film?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I did. There is no instance of the ballgame in it,
but there is an instance of like will we see
a depiction of trafficking, of human kidnapping and the gamification
of prisoners of war and refugees, So there is. I
(19:39):
don't think this will spoil it. There is a scene
wherein some prisoners are cut free and they're allowed to
run for their freedom while the guys who captured them
sort of gamble on whether or not they can shoot
them in the back. Oh yeah, brutal stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And moving to a little bit of a different culture,
we have the Aztecs as well, who carried on this
tradition very very very similarly. There are reports and there
is historical evidence that they would actually sometimes use the
decapitated heads of the losers of certain of these bouts
as stand ins for a ball instead ballgame.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Just imagine, right, the ballgame is at its height of popularity,
you get captured by some enemy force and they say, hey,
we're not going to kill you just yet, but if
you want to stay alive, you have to play this game,
and then they toss you a decapitated.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And the article that I referenced earlier by Monica Petriz
from Atlas Obscura does mention that the main historical evidence
we have this or in like etchings and imagery on
vases and different pieces of pottery like that. So you know,
it's kind of it leaves a bit up to the
imagination whether these were meant to be like metaphorical depictions
(21:13):
or whatever creative liberties were being taken, but it's not
out of the question that this actually did happen. And
Spanish conquerors or Spanish. I guess explorers have reported watching
this game being played and at the very least described
absolutely brutal injuries, including just just decimated bones that have
(21:33):
to be injuries that have to be lanced, and some
people that didn't even survive.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, I mean again, you're fighting for your life. I
don't know if we want to I don't know if
we want to queue up that that al Pacino's speech
from any given Sunday. Do you remember that one? Gosh,
what was the what's the big?
Speaker 4 (21:52):
The big? The tagle?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It's like how you have to fight for every inch?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Okay, yeah, it's a good movie. I like that Oliver
Stone movie.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I'm not even really big sports movie fan, but was
a big Oliver Stone fan back in the day. He
sort of had some stinkers in there, but he's got
some good ones too.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Wait what stinkers did he f?
Speaker 4 (22:09):
You know he had uh.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh Kona the Barbarian.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, I think he was a producer on that. I
don't think he directed that, he routed.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
He did, He did have something to do with writing it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
He was more of like a kind of a schlocky,
you know, Hollywood scribe.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
But you know, a lot of people really hate natural
born killers. I like it a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I guess what I'm thinking of stinkers. I was thinking
of maybe I don't know Nixon. And then some of it,
like w you know, World Trade Center he did that
was a little distasteful. The sequel to Wall Street Money
Never Sleeps not regarded particularly highly. And also Savages I
remember being not great, but man some of his early stuff.
I think Platoon is up there for me with some
(22:55):
of the best boar films ever, although some people rank it.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
A little lower.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Well canonical very much as also would love to see Oliver,
if you're listening, would love to see your depiction of
the ballgame courts. So the ballgame courts were part of
a city's holy precinct. This is what This is our
(23:20):
number one clue indicating that this game was more than
a game for the people involved at the time. I
want to correct one of the things we said earlier.
Each of the walls had a large vertical stone ring,
and it was set high up enough that you couldn't
(23:42):
touch it with your hand right, You'd have to you'd
have to jump. And we know that the court itself
was kind of in the shape of a capital letter
I English. So if you picture that, it's like with
like sort of walls barriers on each side and then
(24:03):
a long kind of I guess field of play connecting
those two like a yeah, my old school stuff makes
me think of it as a kill space, like I
would not want to be in. You you never want
to be in that part of the capital.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
I I'm sure you don't, and I bet you. There
was plenty of blood on the on the sand or
on the turf or whatever. And by the way, the
most famous Oliver Stone stinker was Alexander Fortune. Favors The
Bold starring Val Kilmer and what's his face, Colin Farrell.
I haven't seen it, but it is it is universally
despised by even by the.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
People that were in it. So that's the one I
was thinking.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Colin Ferrell's been doing some pretty impressive stuff right now.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Oh it's so good. And I just I really, I
really liked that show Sugar that he was in. It's
sort of some people didn't care for it, but he
plays sort of like a hard boiled.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Kind of Raymond Chandler type of tech with a secret.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I enjoyed him on Apple TV check out if you
haven't seen it didn't really get much love, Like a
lot of those Apple TV shows, kind of seemed.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
To not be promoted at all. I don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Like slow horses, y'all, don't sleep on slow horses. That's
at least fabulous.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Did you know Gary Oldman is in that?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, he looks This is one of the rare Gary
Oldmans where he pretty much looks like Gary Oldman, but
he looks like he looks like gutter old Men in
this one.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
That's true, But we we digress. We want you to know, uh,
there was immense religious and social significance to the idea
of the ball game. If you look at Maya sites
in particular, you will see some researchers arguing that to
(25:56):
the audience, the ball was symbolically the sun, and the
court itself was the underworld. So can we save daylight
from the dark. That's a very powerful thing for an audience.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
It's the ultimate battle, you know, the battle between light
and dark, good and evil. And we always talk about
in those days, how much sense it makes that there
was all of this worship of deities in the hopes
that they would, you know, turn the sun on again
the next day.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
You know, it would be cool if you guys could
maybe do that.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
But there were also back to the Olmecs, massive stone
sculptures of various versions of depictions of the game.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But some of the ones that I think are the
most interesting are.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
These heads that are found oftentimes near the homes of
the chiefs.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
You know, because this was like a massive cultural thing.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Check me on this. I don't know the Olmec stuff. Well,
I believe in Maya it would be a hatcha a
representation of the human head.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, particular an Omec head as found in a parquet
Musso la Venta in Mexico, and it depicts this person
with really dope stretched lobes, but also with something resembling
what we would think of as a helmet, like like
one of the you're going to be what is it
leathernecks about like old school football, And they used to
(27:21):
have those literal kind of leather little caps on, very
much looking like that, but probably didn't save them too
much from like having their bones splintered into powder.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, yeah, they got their role rocked. As we used
to say. Another question we might have if we are
playing the ballgame, or if we have to participate in
it is not just what happens if I lose, it's
what happens if I win. You don't just save your life.
(27:51):
You apparently receive trophies. One of those trophies would be,
like we were talking about just a second ago, nol
a hotch a representation of a human head with a
handle on it, and you could use it. Is it cool?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I mean, is it cool? What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Like?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's that you carry it around as a flex like
a like a handbag.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Sees it seems a little unwieldy, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
So?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Imagine you were kidnapped by some aggressive, bellicose civilization. You
are a prisoner of war, a refugee. They throw you
into this court with people you don't know from a
can of paint, and they say you have to play
(28:38):
this game or we will kill you. And they give
you a human.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Head to play with.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Right and then, because you didn't die, right as your
shins are broken and you're laying there on the ground,
they say, you won, and we got you a treat.
And here it is. It's a carved version of a
human head.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
See you're saying it might be a little triggering to
the people who've been freshly traumatized.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I think it wouldn't be the best day.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I guess maybe not, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
But you got to imagine too, that they would have
kind of ringers, you know, like the top players, you know,
who were known, and they would make sure just like
in the gladiator battles, you would have your you know,
like decked out mad Max looking fellows that would absolutely
obliterate the lesser armed, you know, slaves or captives who
(29:30):
were thrown into the ring. I just have to imagine
that there maybe was a culture of like, you know,
top players the way we think of celebrity athletes here
in the United States or around the world.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
And so we find ourselves, yet again on a continuing journey.
The ball game as we know it is not currently
practiced officially today currently and officially or doing a lot
of work in that sentence.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
But in Meso America, you know, in this part of
the world, soccer is king of course, yes, huge, I
mean it's absolutely you know, a huge, hugely influential and
popular sports. So I mean, in my mind, I always
pictured this game from the little I knew about it
before doing this episode as resembling soccer more closely. So
(30:30):
it's interesting to see that, you know, when when you're
talking about using your hips or your elbows, I'm also
picturing the way soccer players can like pass a ball
between their feet, you know, or juggle a ball kind
of or your head do move with their heads. So
maybe there were some things that it had in common
with soccer.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
You also have to be very careful with your lower
limbs considering the weight and the speed of that rubber
ball we would rubber.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Interestingly, by the way, I don't think we mentioned that
this part of the world is where rubber plants. A
lot of rubber imports come from things like latex, you know,
from naturally occurring trees, So they would have had access
to this raw material and used it to make these
balls that would, you know, kind of have a little
bit of give you when you kicked him around or
batted him around.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
And then later Henry Ford got so pissed off about
pay for rubber Cat's right he started his own ill
fated town in Brazil called ford Landia.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Oh my gosh, Ben I do remember this vaguely either
from an episode of this podcast or our sister podcast
stuff that.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I want you to know, But can you kind of
remind us how that all went down.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's a true story, and perhaps not one the Jedi
will tell you. Ford ford Landia was to be confused
with Portlandia, not to be confused. Yeah, and that's a
great note. Ford Landia was created in nineteen twenty eight
by Henry Ford, wherein he tried to make a Norman
(32:05):
Rockwell painting come to life and spoiler he failed.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
I mean, you can't win them all, Henry four.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, town is still around if you want to visit there.
It's not super big. There are like three thousand people
there as of twenty eighteen or so.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Okay, maybe we should schedule a ridiculous field trip.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
One of these days. I would love to check it out.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Seems like it might be a little Sultan Sea esque,
maybe a little like an abandoned ghost kind of vibes.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I did want to maybe wrap with just one more
interesting legend. A famous bout of ballgame took place at
the Aztec Capitol and I'm gonna do my best here
of Tanaktatslam. I think that's right between the Aztec king.
Here's where I'm going to feel miserably march Chozoma, Motechkozoma,
(33:02):
Zukoosko yeah x o c O y o t z
and against the King of Text Coco, the King of
text Coco had predicted. We mentioned this, but another use of.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
This was as a way of predicting the future.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
The King of text Toto had predicted that motuck Zoma's
kingdom would fall, and the game was essentially a way
of testing him on his prophecy. Kind of interesting, sort
of makes it a self fulfilling prophecy in.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
A way, right, Yeah, it's like trial by ordeal, yes,
in parts of that try combat of course combat.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, you mean my champion, then if I was, if
I was called to trial by combat, thanks, Bud, I
do the same for you. And it is recorded here.
It's part of the official record. So you can't know
take these back seats. Are you in a situation now yet?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
But you never know, You never know what could happen,
especially given you know, potential changes in regime.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Oh geez.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah. As ever, we also we also have to acknowledge
this proves a larger This proves a larger philosophical point
about the nature of sports even today in many sporting areas. God,
(34:28):
I sound like the old uncle at the reunion.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Come children enjoined us in the sporting area for a
friendly for a friendly contest.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Hello, fellow children. I understand there is a pig skin,
which is a matter of debate. Yes, yeah, So what
we see though, is that the nature of sport, the
nature of play, and I love the word you mentioned
in our previous episode, the nature of sportso is really
(35:02):
more than just messing around.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It is meant to carry certain sociological or cultural mores,
Like we're talking about religion, we're talking about divination, we're
talking about human death. Also, even now, any sports fan
can tell you supporting your favorite team becomes a lot
(35:29):
like having a religion.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Do you know the comedian Kyle Oh geez, what the
heck is his last name? He was the weird SNL
guy Moony. Kyle Mooney has this incredible sketch from his
early YouTube days where he's just this dude wearing a
jacket that has all of the different types of sports
balls on it and he's just.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Talking about it's my team, we gotta support our team,
and the guy his roommate's like, what are you talking
What team are you talking about which, and then he's
describing these very amorphous rules and he's just talking about Bengels.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
It was a bad call, Bengels. You gotta win the game.
They call the points anyway, It's very fun.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Let's also point this out speaking of points. Look, a
lot of the stuff we understand about the ballgame now
comes from the Spaniards who encroached into the area.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
They're the ones who described some of the horrific injuries
that could take place.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And indeed attempted to vilify and dehumanize the civilizations that
they encountered. So we have to remember that. To our
earlier point, we also wanted to give you a dope
beat the step two. There are more weird sports or
(36:52):
ridiculous sports that we will explore together in future episodes.
One that I thought would be super fun for us
to try is fishermen jousting. But that's it was. It
was a real thing in the Nile in ancient Egypt. Dude,
(37:13):
I'm telling you, uh, you would have.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And I think you're in denial about the existence of
this sport.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah yeah, uh so, uh, these two teams of boatmen
would squeaar off. They would have their hands and feet
in play. The idea was you knocked the other team
off balance. Two boats going together and you're pushing each other,
(37:40):
you're smacking each other. The issue was, you know that
hippos and crocodiles are in the nile, so if you
if your boat got pushed, you might get at no
way at by a croc Yes way to.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Sound like fine, I'll take a pass on that one.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
So I think just more, I think we can agree
that sports in general historically are a little more violent
than the sports we see today.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yeah, well yeah, I mean, like you know, we.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Talked about gramatic brain injuries and issues. You know, of
course there's some brutal sports like boxing and UFC fighting
and all of that that are kind of holdovers in
a way or remnants, but they're still, by the standards
that we're talking about, pretty sanitized. These boats, by the way,
Ben and Fisherman and jousting, were they made of like
papyrus as it seemed like the best of material to
(38:37):
build a seafaring vessel out of.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, make it interesting, I guess, so sort of like.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
The pot was it the pumpkin giant pumpkin kayaking.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, how long is that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Thing gonna flow? That is I mean, that's the one
more charming, probably not as violent.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
But a little less dangerous, fewer hippopotamus involved.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
But can we end on a really silly one?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
I just just the name alone, for some reason makes
me think of futurama. I don't know why the idea
of worm charming like this, It seems so low stakes.
I love it very much. It's competitive worm charming possible.
I love that you mentioned this because it's it's like dowsing,
(39:19):
but for worms. So instead of finding water, worm charming
is the method of somehow summoning earthworms from the ground
and then.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
A hypnotizing them correct.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Maybe like steak charming. Okay, okay, you know it's also
called worm grunting or worm fifth lanes.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
You've heard I've heard of wormunt. I have heard of
worm grunt, yes, sir, I certainly have. That is actually
what I heard it referred to as initially. But it
is very popular in the UK. I think it started
pretty recently nineteen eighty in Williston, Cheshire, and the world
record I believe, as in the hand of a woman
named Sophie Smith, a ten year old, a young woman.
(40:06):
How many worms did she charm?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Also why did she make it competitive, folks? Just for funzies.
There is some science though to worm charming. It evolves
a vibration of the soil. Oh, okay, and I'll answer
my own question.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It was five hundred and sixty seven worms that young
Sophie Smith.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
That's at summons.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
That's a lot of worms to summon from the earth.
I'm impressed, young Sophie Smith. A job, Sophie. Indeed, we
talked about hobbyhorsing already last time, which was a delight.
But yeah, Ben, I think I think we're probably at
the end of our second part on History's Oddest Sports.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, and we continue our exploration, folks. Thanks so much
for tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer mister
Max Williams. If you are wondering why are you guys
not taking about more Western sports in the modern day,
Well get thee to your podcast platform of choice. Subscribe.
(41:10):
Oh what am I supposed to say? Like from the
YouTube days, Smash that like button and subscribe because we
have an amazing episode coming up for you, all about
weird stuff that happened on baseball fields.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, and some major malfunctions involving retractable roofs. Tune in,
folks in the meantime. Huge thanks to super producer Max
Williams and Alex Williams who composed this theme.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Big big thanks to our number one commissioner of the
Mesoamerican Ballgame, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist. Big big thanks
to aj Bahamas Jacobs, who is just gosh, just the
coolest cucumber, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
Indeed, that's why he's like a Bahama breeze. There it
is there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Take sure him in a hammock at all times.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I think he mentioned that as well.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Gabe Luzier, Christopher hasiotis Eve's Jeff Coates here in spirit?
Who else?
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Who else?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Who?
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Jeez?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I sure love to thank you, Ben, my warm charmer
whatever that means.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
Do with that, wis you will?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I'd call it dhr Man.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show,
(00:28):
Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for tuning in.
Let's hear, let's hear some some boo and some kashi.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I was gonna say, bosh, you know, I remember ally
g he'd say.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'd love to introduce our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Fresh off on Magnificent Recovery. I am just between these episodes,
gotten from sick to completely healthy.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
He bounced back like some sort of whiffle ball or
a tether ball, perhaps still having the audition.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Wish you the best, Max. Please Ridiculous Historians, allow me
to reintroduce myself. My name is Ben. He joined by
as always the number one, the myth, the man, the legend,
mister Noel.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Brown aka nove. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We are coming to you live and direct as we record.
It is Tuesday, November fifth, here in the just another
day here in the United States of America, a bold,
if imperfect experiment. We as you're hearing this, a couple
(01:45):
of other things may have changed. We we don't know
how everything's gonna work out, and we are not, you know,
a polemical show. No We are, however, very interested in
ridiculous things. And I gotta say, I don't know how
this will age you guys, but uh, politics is.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Kind of a sport, oh boy, is it? Ever it's
a love sports. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I actually
saw I can't remember who posted this. It was a tweeter.
Maybe it was even a tweet referencing something that somebody said,
but no, anywal it was. It was my buddy, Jason Pargin.
I don't actually know, but I really love his content
a lot. Yeah, writer John dies in the end, Yeah, exactly.
Regular guests on Daily Zeitgeist, as are yourself, as is yourself? Then,
(02:33):
but he said something to the effect of, like politics
has gotten this point where it's not even about actually
being informed. It's just another kind of reality show ask
sort of like pissing contest in a way of being
the quote unquote winner. And you know, I've certainly been
looking in the last few days for intensely non political
things to listen to. So we would like to be
(02:53):
that thing for you today, for sure. But I'm with
you one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Then.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The reason we're making that sports comparison in the first
place is because this, this episode, folks, started as a
an artifact of curiosity, right, and we thought it would
be a one part, one and done, you know, to
(03:19):
quote our friend Dan Harmon from Rick and Morty, we
thought it would be like a classic in and out,
you know, not affecting the mythos. But we got in
a bit over our heads when we started looking at
the world's weirdest sports. We struck a chord with one
(03:39):
another and hopefully with you. We spent the entire first
episode just talking about buzkashi, which, by the way, I'm
still super bullish on those.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
So are you the goat? Are you goated?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
If you are the best at snatching the goat?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I learned so much more to just going into this
like I. So we cut a lot of the philosophical
and geopolitical implications of buzkashi, the national sport of Afghanistan.
We cut a lot of it because we thought we
(04:26):
were gonna have a one and done episode. And then
I think we reached the point together as a triumvirate
where we said hang on and hang on a tick,
I go on a tck. We did have some good
cartoonish British accents in there, too.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Oh, of course that's the best part of the show.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And just as by way of a quick reminder of
muskashi being the national sport of Afghanistan, we're in individuals
a top horseback by quite aggressively for a goat skin,
a goat sort of carcass type floppy thing in more
recent years has been replaced by maybe a more vegan alternative.
(05:08):
But yeah, there's a giant sort of fish bowl thing
in the middle, I guess, more of like a dog bowl,
and that is the goal and people are often throwing
themselves into it along with the goat skin, and it's
pretty wild.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, and you made the excellent comparison to polo. You
also you also noted something I was listening back to
and I loved this you you noted, Hey, in US
football people throw around a pig skin.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So one of the notes that we landed on in
our previous exploration concerned the idea of perspective, the importance
of having empathy, having the ability to realize that something
may seem odd or even disturbing to an outside observer.
(06:03):
It might seem weird, like cough cough going to a
cricket game and not knowing what's going on.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Cough cough.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
But but all right, all right, it's illegal for you
to ask me that. It is not illegal to ask
me that because I told you I'm a rule breaker. Yeah. Man. Also,
I have no idea what's going off with cricket. I
watch it and I clap like the distant relative adder reunion.
(06:33):
There's a wicket and a bowler, a sticky wicket.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, that's different, and that's sort of like a conundrum,
which is what many of us might find ourselves in today.
But yeah, the wicket is the bat is the flat
bat also probably good for the people down The thing
that get the bat is what you use to hit
the wicket.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Oh, the wicket is like the t ball stand.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
The wickets like the croquet goal.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
For all these years thought that the wicket would the
bat the beasts the beat, and the bowler is like
the pitcher.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Right, okay, okay, one thing.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You nailed it, guys. Also, cricket is tremendously popular and
may seem confusing to people unfamiliar. Also, to be honest,
baseball is probably confusing to people who are not from
the West or Japan.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I will say, though, as a non sporto, I do.
Maybe it's just because it was the sport that my
mom really enjoyed. I have always found it to be
a little more understandable than football as many times, and
I do understand football, but it just isn't as intuitive
to me. Baseball, I think is probably partly why it's
so popular. Is a little bit more simple, you know.
I mean, once again, the stats, that's different, but the
(07:49):
actual rules not too hard to wrap your head around.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
You hit the ball, you run the basis, you try
to get all around the bases. Football there's a lot
of minutia, minutia, intricacies, pedantics, trench warfare.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
You've got to be a real head to get into
the weeds.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Do you get into the trenches with the newest of
like the big sports in America, Like, it's a pretty
recent invention, late eighteen hundreds, so it's.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Been great for commercials. And yeah, you really have to
get your head in the game and hote traumatic brain injuries,
get a concussion.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And so we will not say we are judging weird sports,
will say instead that we acknowledge things can look different
from the outside and some of these endeavors that people
participate in may seem odd because you have not played
(08:43):
the game right, just just like any other recreational endeavor.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, and also anytime we kind of dig through the
annals of history and look at you know, cultural differences
and things that may not have aged well over time,
and maybe you're no longer you know, practiced, it's important
not to judge, you know, something too harshly for the
era that it was taking place in, and also for
you know, the part of the world, the way that
(09:11):
it was separated from maybe other cultures, and the way
things kind of develop in a vacuum sometimes, especially in
the in the distant past.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Heck, yeah, brother, let's go to meso America. Back in
the day, we proudly present to you a different sort
of ballgame loosely called the ball game.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I know it well, I mean we talked to I
can't remember it was it stuff that I want you
to know. It must have been recently where we were
talking about just how intuitive it is for a human
to see a stick on the ground and a round
object and just be like, how can I make this
into a competition, Because when we look at it now
and see sports as this Titanic industry, generating gazillions of dollars.
(09:53):
It's easy to lose sight of the fact that most
of it is based on very simple kind of parallel
thinking act of human beings, where it's like, I see
that thing, and I see that thing. Let's put them
together and figure out a way that we can play.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Shout out by the way to everyone who is listening
to this. On a walk and just saw a good stick.
That's a stick right there, man, that's a good stick
right there. You've got to pick it up, all right,
do the Gandalf thing? Oh man. This game, loosely called
the ballgame, was played by every Mesoamerican civilization as far
(10:27):
as we can tell. It was invented sometime in like
twenty five hundred to one hundred BCE, So this game
predates the story of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I also, I think it's one of those things where, again,
because of the parallel thinking, those numbers may vary. There's
a really great article on Alice Obscura that dates it
back to the Olmec around fifteen hundred BC in the
central Gulf coast of.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Mexico, right, yeah, And the so it's tricky to understand
how BC works. The lower number on BC is closer
to the modern day, so twenty five hundred to the
Olmec period to one our BCE still very very old.
(11:17):
This was so popular. This was like the on the
level of soccer today or football for the rest of
the world. We don't know a ton about it, but
we do know people were super into it and it
was super disturbing. The rules of the game are still
(11:38):
something scholars will argue about, but it was probably kind
of like racquetball, like you had to keep the ball
in play. We do know, to your point, Noal, that
these courts where this game was played, whatever it was called,
(11:59):
they became similar to stadiums that you would see in
major US cities today. They were a feature of the
urban landscape. And if we look at how people tried
to play the game, then we have to look at
the descendant of the game, something called ulama. We do
(12:23):
know these players would strike the ball with their hips,
they may have used four arms. Occasionally, they might have bats,
and they were always trying to get the ball, whatever
it was, through a stone circle placed on either side
(12:44):
of the court. Pretty difficult, but I think it'll remind
a lot of us of basketball if you died when
you lost, or.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Quidditch, if you're Harry Potter, I believe they weren't they
tossing those things through like a square, circlegular kind of
goal target.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What's what's the thing you have to get in quidditch?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
The snitch, the golden snitch it yeah, it is, Yeah,
that's the the sneach. I think it's the snitch. It's
like a weird little bug thing that they release and
that's part of the game. But then you also have
like a ball, it's more like a rugby ball that
they did, you know, on the broom top to these
circular goals.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
In the ballgame throughout ancient meso America or early meso America. Uh,
the ball was solid rubber and could weigh as much
as nine pounds. Yeah, so people are beefy four arms
for them, yeah, or broken four arms people are people
(13:43):
are fighting. The The only real thing, the only real
consistent rule we know is that the two teams had
to fight each other to get the ball through one
of the rings on the court. And if someone got
an a goal broken, if someone you know, knocked their
forearm or got hit in the head, didn't matter.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
I mean, you might argue that was a feature, not
a bug, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I mean, this really is tantamount to the kind of
blood sport we see with gladiator battles. Not to mention
the religious implications of this band. You found some really
cool stuff about how this was part of lore, like
the idea of this sport being played between members of
(14:34):
you know, the human race and like lords of the underworld.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Ah, yes, this is true. In Mesoamerican mythology, the ballgame
functioned as an important socio religious ritual. Like you were saying, Noel,
it's the story of the hero twins Hondapuh and vocal
(15:00):
on the pull. The part of my pronunciation, guy is
my key chase pretty loose these days. This is a
pair of awesome dudes who super pissed off Shibbalba, which
is the underworld and the god thereof.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
This is in Mayan culture, to my understanding, and it
comes for you can read a lot of this if
you want to go a little deeper. I think you
can find this sort of creation myth in a tome
called the popol Vu, which is also a really interesting
kind of gothy post punk band. I always really liked
this name and did not know where it came from.
And it is a band called popole Vu.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Way No Way. I got to tell you man. You know,
I had a life before the podcasting stuff, and I
lived in Central America for a time, and the culture,
the ancient culture there still persist. I have never watched
the game in person. But as as you note, there
(16:04):
is religious significance to this. Uh, there is social significance
to this if you if you follow the mythology. These
two brothers, Haun and the club who were you know
again heroes. Uh, they were tricked into descending toward the
underworld and then they had to play this game. And
(16:28):
because one of the hero twins lost the game, he
had his head cut off.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The ultimate penalty.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
It is to backtrack really quickly to a previous tangent.
Popol Vu.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
The band is actually more of like an electronic German
kraft rock band, which is not a term of derision.
It is a genre and the folks in that part
of the world were it proudly bands like Craftwork and
NOI so do check out popol Vu. I actually am
going to make a note to myself. This is one
that I'm not super very well versed in.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Also, while we're at it, everybody look forward to our
future two part episode on women in electronic.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Thanks Ben, Yeah, I'm working on that one.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It's a very near and dear topic to me, so
we should have that one out in a week or two.
But sorry, Ben, decapitation. We're bearing the lead here, or
maybe we're not. I just derailed the lead. But this
was a common penalty for being the loser. And then
I got to follow up question, was this a team sport?
Were there entire teams that were executed as the results
(17:31):
of losing?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yes, there were teams. They were not always consenting participants.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Ah, because like the Gladiator connection.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So imagine if you're playing racquetball with a team, right,
and you have to you have to try to get
this heavy rubber ball through this stone goal, and you
know that if you don't accomplish the win, you might
be sacrificed. In at least a few instances, the ballgame
(18:17):
was a proxy for war, like warring kingdoms would say, hey,
let's settle this on the court.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
That could be in issues of succession, It could be
issues of territory, you know, disputes over territory and oftentimes
to your point about non consensual, you know, participation in
this game really serious connection to the gladiator thing, because
oftentimes slaves or captives, prisoners of war were forced to
(18:47):
fight for their lives in this competitive sport.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yes, and shout out to everybody who just immediately thought
of Apocalypto. Do you remember that film? I think you know.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I never saw it because I think Mel Gibson's an asshole.
But I heard it's really good and that it actually
is pretty interesting, and I don't know is it problematic.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
I don't remember hearing that aspect about it.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I know he's done some problematic things in terms of
his depictions of indigenous people.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
But did you enjoy the film?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I did. There is no instance of the ballgame in it,
but there is an instance of like will we see
a depiction of trafficking, of human kidnapping and the gamification
of prisoners of war and refugees, So there is. I
(19:39):
don't think this will spoil it. There is a scene
wherein some prisoners are cut free and they're allowed to
run for their freedom while the guys who captured them
sort of gamble on whether or not they can shoot
them in the back. Oh yeah, brutal stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And moving to a little bit of a different culture,
we have the Aztecs as well, who carried on this
tradition very very very similarly. There are reports and there
is historical evidence that they would actually sometimes use the
decapitated heads of the losers of certain of these bouts
as stand ins for a ball instead ballgame.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Just imagine, right, the ballgame is at its height of popularity,
you get captured by some enemy force and they say, hey,
we're not going to kill you just yet, but if
you want to stay alive, you have to play this game,
and then they toss you a decapitated.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
And the article that I referenced earlier by Monica Petriz
from Atlas Obscura does mention that the main historical evidence
we have this or in like etchings and imagery on
vases and different pieces of pottery like that. So you know,
it's kind of it leaves a bit up to the
imagination whether these were meant to be like metaphorical depictions
(21:13):
or whatever creative liberties were being taken, but it's not
out of the question that this actually did happen. And
Spanish conquerors or Spanish. I guess explorers have reported watching
this game being played and at the very least described
absolutely brutal injuries, including just just decimated bones that have
(21:33):
to be injuries that have to be lanced, and some
people that didn't even survive.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, I mean again, you're fighting for your life. I
don't know if we want to I don't know if
we want to queue up that that al Pacino's speech
from any given Sunday. Do you remember that one? Gosh,
what was the what's the big?
Speaker 4 (21:52):
The big? The tagle?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It's like how you have to fight for every inch?
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Okay, yeah, it's a good movie. I like that Oliver
Stone movie.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I'm not even really big sports movie fan, but was
a big Oliver Stone fan back in the day. He
sort of had some stinkers in there, but he's got
some good ones too.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Wait what stinkers did he f?
Speaker 4 (22:09):
You know he had uh.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh Kona the Barbarian.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Well, I think he was a producer on that. I
don't think he directed that, he routed.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
He did, He did have something to do with writing it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
He was more of like a kind of a schlocky,
you know, Hollywood scribe.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
But you know, a lot of people really hate natural
born killers. I like it a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I guess what I'm thinking of stinkers. I was thinking
of maybe I don't know Nixon. And then some of it,
like w you know, World Trade Center he did that
was a little distasteful. The sequel to Wall Street Money
Never Sleeps not regarded particularly highly. And also Savages I
remember being not great, but man some of his early stuff.
I think Platoon is up there for me with some
(22:55):
of the best boar films ever, although some people rank it.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
A little lower.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Well canonical very much as also would love to see Oliver,
if you're listening, would love to see your depiction of
the ballgame courts. So the ballgame courts were part of
a city's holy precinct. This is what This is our
(23:20):
number one clue indicating that this game was more than
a game for the people involved at the time. I
want to correct one of the things we said earlier.
Each of the walls had a large vertical stone ring,
and it was set high up enough that you couldn't
(23:42):
touch it with your hand right, You'd have to you'd
have to jump. And we know that the court itself
was kind of in the shape of a capital letter
I English. So if you picture that, it's like with
like sort of walls barriers on each side and then
(24:03):
a long kind of I guess field of play connecting
those two like a yeah, my old school stuff makes
me think of it as a kill space, like I
would not want to be in. You you never want
to be in that part of the capital.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
I I'm sure you don't, and I bet you. There
was plenty of blood on the on the sand or
on the turf or whatever. And by the way, the
most famous Oliver Stone stinker was Alexander Fortune. Favors The
Bold starring Val Kilmer and what's his face, Colin Farrell.
I haven't seen it, but it is it is universally
despised by even by the.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
People that were in it. So that's the one I
was thinking.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Colin Ferrell's been doing some pretty impressive stuff right now.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Oh it's so good. And I just I really, I
really liked that show Sugar that he was in. It's
sort of some people didn't care for it, but he
plays sort of like a hard boiled.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Kind of Raymond Chandler type of tech with a secret.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I enjoyed him on Apple TV check out if you
haven't seen it didn't really get much love, Like a
lot of those Apple TV shows, kind of seemed.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
To not be promoted at all. I don't understand it.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Like slow horses, y'all, don't sleep on slow horses. That's
at least fabulous.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Did you know Gary Oldman is in that?
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, he looks This is one of the rare Gary
Oldmans where he pretty much looks like Gary Oldman, but
he looks like he looks like gutter old Men in
this one.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
That's true, But we we digress. We want you to know, uh,
there was immense religious and social significance to the idea
of the ball game. If you look at Maya sites
in particular, you will see some researchers arguing that to
(25:56):
the audience, the ball was symbolically the sun, and the
court itself was the underworld. So can we save daylight
from the dark. That's a very powerful thing for an audience.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
It's the ultimate battle, you know, the battle between light
and dark, good and evil. And we always talk about
in those days, how much sense it makes that there
was all of this worship of deities in the hopes
that they would, you know, turn the sun on again
the next day.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
You know, it would be cool if you guys could
maybe do that.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
But there were also back to the Olmecs, massive stone
sculptures of various versions of depictions of the game.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
But some of the ones that I think are the
most interesting are.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
These heads that are found oftentimes near the homes of
the chiefs.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
You know, because this was like a massive cultural thing.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Check me on this. I don't know the Olmec stuff. Well,
I believe in Maya it would be a hatcha a
representation of the human head.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, particular an Omec head as found in a parquet
Musso la Venta in Mexico, and it depicts this person
with really dope stretched lobes, but also with something resembling
what we would think of as a helmet, like like
one of the you're going to be what is it
leathernecks about like old school football, And they used to
(27:21):
have those literal kind of leather little caps on, very
much looking like that, but probably didn't save them too
much from like having their bones splintered into powder.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, yeah, they got their role rocked. As we used
to say. Another question we might have if we are
playing the ballgame, or if we have to participate in
it is not just what happens if I lose, it's
what happens if I win. You don't just save your life.
(27:51):
You apparently receive trophies. One of those trophies would be,
like we were talking about just a second ago, nol
a hotch a representation of a human head with a
handle on it, and you could use it. Is it cool?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I mean, is it cool? What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Like?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's that you carry it around as a flex like
a like a handbag.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Sees it seems a little unwieldy, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
So?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Imagine you were kidnapped by some aggressive, bellicose civilization. You
are a prisoner of war, a refugee. They throw you
into this court with people you don't know from a
can of paint, and they say you have to play
(28:38):
this game or we will kill you. And they give
you a human.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Head to play with.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Right and then, because you didn't die, right as your
shins are broken and you're laying there on the ground,
they say, you won, and we got you a treat.
And here it is. It's a carved version of a
human head.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
See you're saying it might be a little triggering to
the people who've been freshly traumatized.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
I think it wouldn't be the best day.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
I guess maybe not, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
But you got to imagine too, that they would have
kind of ringers, you know, like the top players, you know,
who were known, and they would make sure just like
in the gladiator battles, you would have your you know,
like decked out mad Max looking fellows that would absolutely
obliterate the lesser armed, you know, slaves or captives who
(29:30):
were thrown into the ring. I just have to imagine
that there maybe was a culture of like, you know,
top players the way we think of celebrity athletes here
in the United States or around the world.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
And so we find ourselves, yet again on a continuing journey.
The ball game as we know it is not currently
practiced officially today currently and officially or doing a lot
of work in that sentence.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
But in Meso America, you know, in this part of
the world, soccer is king of course, yes, huge, I
mean it's absolutely you know, a huge, hugely influential and
popular sports. So I mean, in my mind, I always
pictured this game from the little I knew about it
before doing this episode as resembling soccer more closely. So
(30:30):
it's interesting to see that, you know, when when you're
talking about using your hips or your elbows, I'm also
picturing the way soccer players can like pass a ball
between their feet, you know, or juggle a ball kind
of or your head do move with their heads. So
maybe there were some things that it had in common
with soccer.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
You also have to be very careful with your lower
limbs considering the weight and the speed of that rubber
ball we would rubber.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Interestingly, by the way, I don't think we mentioned that
this part of the world is where rubber plants. A
lot of rubber imports come from things like latex, you know,
from naturally occurring trees, So they would have had access
to this raw material and used it to make these
balls that would, you know, kind of have a little
bit of give you when you kicked him around or
batted him around.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
And then later Henry Ford got so pissed off about
pay for rubber Cat's right he started his own ill
fated town in Brazil called ford Landia.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Oh my gosh, Ben I do remember this vaguely either
from an episode of this podcast or our sister podcast
stuff that.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I want you to know, But can you kind of
remind us how that all went down.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's a true story, and perhaps not one the Jedi
will tell you. Ford ford Landia was to be confused
with Portlandia, not to be confused. Yeah, and that's a
great note. Ford Landia was created in nineteen twenty eight
by Henry Ford, wherein he tried to make a Norman
(32:05):
Rockwell painting come to life and spoiler he failed.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
I mean, you can't win them all, Henry four.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, town is still around if you want to visit there.
It's not super big. There are like three thousand people
there as of twenty eighteen or so.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Okay, maybe we should schedule a ridiculous field trip.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
One of these days. I would love to check it out.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Seems like it might be a little Sultan Sea esque,
maybe a little like an abandoned ghost kind of vibes.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I did want to maybe wrap with just one more
interesting legend. A famous bout of ballgame took place at
the Aztec Capitol and I'm gonna do my best here
of Tanaktatslam. I think that's right between the Aztec king.
Here's where I'm going to feel miserably march Chozoma, Motechkozoma,
(33:02):
Zukoosko yeah x o c O y o t z
and against the King of Text Coco, the King of
text Coco had predicted. We mentioned this, but another use of.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
This was as a way of predicting the future.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
The King of text Toto had predicted that motuck Zoma's
kingdom would fall, and the game was essentially a way
of testing him on his prophecy. Kind of interesting, sort
of makes it a self fulfilling prophecy in.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
A way, right, Yeah, it's like trial by ordeal, yes,
in parts of that try combat of course combat.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, you mean my champion, then if I was, if
I was called to trial by combat, thanks, Bud, I
do the same for you. And it is recorded here.
It's part of the official record. So you can't know
take these back seats. Are you in a situation now yet?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
But you never know, You never know what could happen,
especially given you know, potential changes in regime.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Oh geez.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah. As ever, we also we also have to acknowledge
this proves a larger This proves a larger philosophical point
about the nature of sports even today in many sporting areas. God,
(34:28):
I sound like the old uncle at the reunion.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Come children enjoined us in the sporting area for a
friendly for a friendly contest.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
Hello, fellow children. I understand there is a pig skin,
which is a matter of debate. Yes, yeah, So what
we see though, is that the nature of sport, the
nature of play, and I love the word you mentioned
in our previous episode, the nature of sportso is really
(35:02):
more than just messing around.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It is meant to carry certain sociological or cultural mores,
Like we're talking about religion, we're talking about divination, we're
talking about human death. Also, even now, any sports fan
can tell you supporting your favorite team becomes a lot
(35:29):
like having a religion.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Do you know the comedian Kyle Oh geez, what the
heck is his last name? He was the weird SNL
guy Moony. Kyle Mooney has this incredible sketch from his
early YouTube days where he's just this dude wearing a
jacket that has all of the different types of sports
balls on it and he's just.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Talking about it's my team, we gotta support our team,
and the guy his roommate's like, what are you talking
What team are you talking about which, and then he's
describing these very amorphous rules and he's just talking about Bengels.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
It was a bad call, Bengels. You gotta win the game.
They call the points anyway, It's very fun.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Let's also point this out speaking of points. Look, a
lot of the stuff we understand about the ballgame now
comes from the Spaniards who encroached into the area.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
They're the ones who described some of the horrific injuries
that could take place.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And indeed attempted to vilify and dehumanize the civilizations that
they encountered. So we have to remember that. To our
earlier point, we also wanted to give you a dope
beat the step two. There are more weird sports or
(36:52):
ridiculous sports that we will explore together in future episodes.
One that I thought would be super fun for us
to try is fishermen jousting. But that's it was. It
was a real thing in the Nile in ancient Egypt. Dude,
(37:13):
I'm telling you, uh, you would have.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And I think you're in denial about the existence of
this sport.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah yeah, uh so, uh, these two teams of boatmen
would squeaar off. They would have their hands and feet
in play. The idea was you knocked the other team
off balance. Two boats going together and you're pushing each other,
(37:40):
you're smacking each other. The issue was, you know that
hippos and crocodiles are in the nile, so if you
if your boat got pushed, you might get at no
way at by a croc Yes way to.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Sound like fine, I'll take a pass on that one.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
So I think just more, I think we can agree
that sports in general historically are a little more violent
than the sports we see today.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yeah, well yeah, I mean, like you know, we.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Talked about gramatic brain injuries and issues. You know, of
course there's some brutal sports like boxing and UFC fighting
and all of that that are kind of holdovers in
a way or remnants, but they're still, by the standards
that we're talking about, pretty sanitized. These boats, by the way,
Ben and Fisherman and jousting, were they made of like
papyrus as it seemed like the best of material to
(38:37):
build a seafaring vessel out of.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, make it interesting, I guess, so sort of like.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
The pot was it the pumpkin giant pumpkin kayaking.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, how long is that.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Thing gonna flow? That is I mean, that's the one
more charming, probably not as violent.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
But a little less dangerous, fewer hippopotamus involved.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
But can we end on a really silly one?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
I just just the name alone, for some reason makes
me think of futurama. I don't know why the idea
of worm charming like this, It seems so low stakes.
I love it very much. It's competitive worm charming possible.
I love that you mentioned this because it's it's like dowsing,
(39:19):
but for worms. So instead of finding water, worm charming
is the method of somehow summoning earthworms from the ground
and then.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
A hypnotizing them correct.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Maybe like steak charming. Okay, okay, you know it's also
called worm grunting or worm fifth lanes.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
You've heard I've heard of wormunt. I have heard of
worm grunt, yes, sir, I certainly have. That is actually
what I heard it referred to as initially. But it
is very popular in the UK. I think it started
pretty recently nineteen eighty in Williston, Cheshire, and the world
record I believe, as in the hand of a woman
named Sophie Smith, a ten year old, a young woman.
(40:06):
How many worms did she charm?
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Also why did she make it competitive, folks? Just for funzies.
There is some science though to worm charming. It evolves
a vibration of the soil. Oh, okay, and I'll answer
my own question.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It was five hundred and sixty seven worms that young
Sophie Smith.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
That's at summons.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
That's a lot of worms to summon from the earth.
I'm impressed, young Sophie Smith. A job, Sophie. Indeed, we
talked about hobbyhorsing already last time, which was a delight.
But yeah, Ben, I think I think we're probably at
the end of our second part on History's Oddest Sports.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, and we continue our exploration, folks. Thanks so much
for tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer mister
Max Williams. If you are wondering why are you guys
not taking about more Western sports in the modern day,
Well get thee to your podcast platform of choice. Subscribe.
(41:10):
Oh what am I supposed to say? Like from the
YouTube days, Smash that like button and subscribe because we
have an amazing episode coming up for you, all about
weird stuff that happened on baseball fields.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, and some major malfunctions involving retractable roofs. Tune in,
folks in the meantime. Huge thanks to super producer Max
Williams and Alex Williams who composed this theme.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Big big thanks to our number one commissioner of the
Mesoamerican Ballgame, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist. Big big thanks
to aj Bahamas Jacobs, who is just gosh, just the
coolest cucumber, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
Indeed, that's why he's like a Bahama breeze. There it
is there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Take sure him in a hammock at all times.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
I think he mentioned that as well.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Gabe Luzier, Christopher hasiotis Eve's Jeff Coates here in spirit?
Who else?
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Who else?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Who?
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Jeez?
Speaker 2 (42:10):
I sure love to thank you, Ben, my warm charmer
whatever that means.
Speaker 4 (42:16):
Do with that, wis you will?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I'd call it dhr Man.
Speaker 4 (42:20):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.