February 6, 2025 • 37 mins
Cast your mind back to the Victorian Era, when countless singles and would-be paramours struggled to circumvent strict social mores in the search for true love. In the second part of this two-part series, Ben, Noel and Max continue their exploration of Victorian Era, conspiratorial methods -- especially the infamous 'acquaintance card.'
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for the number one
guy who sets our hearts a flutter. We are so
twitter painted for our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
He's our number one number two. Is that a thing?
I kind of like it. You're more than number two,
You're number one in our hearts. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
For some reason, number one, number two makes me think
of I've gotta say it, my favorite coop.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You know, that's all right, that's Max. No, no, no,
everyone's favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Poop, which is it's funny. This is unrelated to anything,
but I saw quite recently a four year old absolutely
burned down an adult with the most vicious insult. The
four year old could think of, Oh, poopy head, poopy,
she said. She said someone I said, oh, you know,
(01:20):
don't I'm not going to give names because I'll get
in trouble, but oh, don't you want to come over
here and you know, give Auntie a hug? And then
she said, no, you're a poop.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And she said it was like just an old poop.
She said it was such vim.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And Visita like you could tell the she hadn't learned
the word MF yet.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You know, it's funny, dude, that that is an insult.
I guess it makes me think of like I love
Lucy when they go oh you old pooh, you know, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Very lighthearted insults and sometimes lighthearted insults are a part
of flirting. You Well, that's mister Noel Brown. I am
ben Bollen. This is Part two of the Ridiculous History
(02:11):
of specifically Victorian flirting. Noel, what did we learn in
part one?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So much? We learned how to flirt via fan code
and postage stamp code, sending little sexy missives through the
mail and in person by fluttering our fan implement.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
There's a one specific signal you can use. Oh so silly.
You put your fan on your right ear and tell
some what you have changed.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh, that's right, you have indeed changed. It's sort of
the Victorian version of looks maxing, or what do they
call it mogging? And or oh, geez, what's the other
word for it. We kind of suck cheeks in mogging.
It's looks maxing. Mogging is another word for it. It's
jen alpha stuff where you kind of suck your cheeks
in and sort of make that blue steel face like
from Zoolander, and sort of stroke your cheeks, you know,
(03:01):
with a two for four fingers and a thumb.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, am I doing this right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh definitely. Yeah. You gotta stuck you cheeks in a
little more though, make make you know, cheek bones, lips, duckliss. Yeah,
it is a little more, a little on the ducklips side. Yep,
you got it there, Ben.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, we're trying. Uh, you'll have to trust us because
we are an audio podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
We look ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yes, there's a whole history to it. We're also excited
to explore this with you folks. Uh we have our
own uh Maximill and I have our own, uh personal
ridiculous histories with flirting. I had a story just behind
the curtain on part one that, upon reconsideration, I asked
(03:48):
us to pull it from the air because.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, it was just for us, man, we get to
keep that particular flavor sauce in the family. As they say, well,
you know, we can maybe do a little low key.
It was basically just a description of you being flirted
upon by a lady during a social interaction, and you
maybe not until we discussed it after the fact, didn't
(04:13):
realize quite how horny a flirtation it was. And Beanie
Weenie's were involved, That's true. It was use your imagination, folks.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Fretty forward. Actually yeah, yeah, Well, when some lose some
the course of true love never did run smooth. If
somehow you are the person who is the subject of
that story, no love lost. And if you happen to
be hearing this, you know, what's up girl? So anyway,
(04:44):
we'll leave it there. Our first part of part two
here continues with Victorian flirtation methods because for many people
in the era, for women in particular, society was so oppressive.
You couldn't just come out and say what's up, Donathan Esquire?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
No, you had there there was a certain, very rigidly
codified decorum that involved things like calling cards, and you know,
obviously this would make its way into business culture.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I think that's sort of the origin of that thing.
If we'd have like, you know, your name and business
and address and phone number and appropriate to you know,
contact information. But in the Victorian era these were referred
to as escort cards and ben it also reminds me
of another type of card that happened later that we
talked about in previous episodes of the dance card, the
(05:43):
idea of my dance card being full and only having
a certain number of slots for a fella to cut
a rug with you at certain you know, cotillion type events.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves there. What in fact
was the Victorian escort card or flirtation card or a
acquaintance card.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, this is this is great And I love
that callback and all to the dance card, because I
think we both always wondered whether that was a real.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Thing, very real, very real, a library book, like a
lending card, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, it's for dancing, Yeah, yeah, for you know, for
the ballroom. That's a great comparison as well.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So honestly, in Victorian time, dancing might have been considered scandalous, you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Know, yeah yeah. And so if if the business card
or the calling card is the G rated thing, then
the dance card might would have been the PG thirteen thing.
And this is trending toward R rated the flirtation acquaintance
escort card. They were a purposeful kind of sexy play
(06:46):
on the calling card. And you would if you were.
This was only for members of the aristocracy, of course,
because who could afford to have this many different specific
printed cards.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, the lettering alone and the card stock it's bone perhaps,
you know, with a nice seraphy text.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Oh gosh, and the paperweight. So this is the issue here.
Escort cards would be like a very what we would
see is a very unsexy Valentine's Day card almost because
you would you would come by and you would say,
you know, is Dame Algervine home? And they would, you know,
(07:28):
the butler or whomever would say referreely not, and often
the aristok the caller would realize they weren't home, and
they would say, well, tell that scrumptious little the toffee topop.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Too far?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What's the thing that Tell that scrumptious little strawberry trifle
that Lord Butterball is stopped by for a visit. And
then they would, uh, this is of.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Course all in Lord Butterball's had because those words would
not have been uttered aloud to the chaperone, who was
basically the gatekeeper of said lady person right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It said, he would have made, you know, like a
stiff upper lip sniff and thanked the butler and then
dropped his calling card. But his calling card, the dame
would find out later, was actually his acquaintance or escorts card.
And escort cards were often used to encourage that kind
(08:27):
of secrecy that people really like in flirtation, because you know,
if you're a young woman, you've almost always got your sheperone.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
That's right, which could be the butler in this situation,
which could be a family member, a brother, you know,
someone that again would kind of gatekeep this young woman
to make sure that she was not up to anything
untoward with a fella. So a young man could opt
to slip his crush an escort card, and in turn,
then she could respond via the signal detailed in the
(08:59):
card or return a card of her own in response.
And you're absolutely right with the Valentines comparison, because they
would have borderline greeting card ask messages which maybe was
more co opted from this type of language, you know,
as a joke, but things like may I have the
pleasure of seeing you home this evening, or something a
little more straight to the point, let's get acquainted for
(09:19):
fun and results. That is such an AKA, what a child?
What are these said results men.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, they have to they have to be a child,
that's what they're talking about. But also, to your subtle
American psycho reference earlier, it sounds like a Patrick Bateman
pickup line, Let's get acquainted for fun and results.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
In Bateman's case, results might be your you know, bloody discourse.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, timely to buyse right. So a quick tangent here
just for film buffs. I'm sure you've run into this
to Nolan Max, have you? So? I've read the book
right by Brett Easton. Ella's someone to say and I.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Absolutely pornographic, by the way, not for the faint of heart.
The movie is pg. Thirteen in comparison.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yes, yes, very good point. And the thing that is
not clear in either the novel nor in the film,
particularly in the film, I think, is whether Bateman is
actually doing any of those horrific.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Acts of violence, and whether or not he gets caught
a lot of you know, the book is in the
film definitely a satire of the excesses of nineteen eighties
Wall Street culture and just the absolute kind of vacuousness
of people in that strata, and the idea being that
he is or is not actually doing these things if
he is that people are so aloof and up their
(10:49):
own keysters that they're just not even noticing because no
one's paying attention to anybody else.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering, though, what do
you fall ben on whether or not he actually gave
these things. Yeah, I'm still I'm still wrestling with it
because there are a few there are a few moments,
especially in the film, where it seems that he's really
doing something, like when he has to wash his sheets
(11:17):
in the at the laundromat, right and they say there
are some stains. That's an outside person sightly, Yes, yeah,
but that's uh that that's the weird.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
The last note on this, because I know we have
to get to it. You know. Patrick Bateman Ian American
psycho looks a little bit like Josh Clark.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Oh, I see that. Just to take great great bone structure.
By the way, great cheekbones very looks maxing, Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Very similar. Mouth. I think about people's mouths a lot,
which is what I would put on my acquaintance card.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Got a pretty mouth, which you definitely do bet another
thing on this particular. Oh yeah, of course you get
great bone structure too. On this acquaintance card that are
a wonderful research associate. Wren Fair Ren Fest Jones supplied
(12:14):
us with it's got the let's get acquainted for fun
and results and then makes the you know weird flex
of I am a millionaire's only son, check, not married,
still looking for someone to love. And then there's a
big old open space that is wrapped around this kind
of ribbon that spans the length of the card or
(12:34):
the width of the card. And on each side, on
the left side there's a gentleman with a cane and
a top hat and his fine you know, coach sharp
and shoes, sharply dressed, sitting And on the other side
is a lady with her parasol and you know, petty
coats and a roughly hat.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That probably has a huge pin in it, just no doubt.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Oh, check out our episode on hat pin Warriors. You
know what was it? The wolf whistlers or the cap callers?
That was it? They had to defend themselves against these
rascal mash I love the the mashers. I love the
separation that this line that's available for writing a particular
message is giving between these two. There is this like
(13:17):
will they won't they? Kind of sexual tension just communicated
on the card alone.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yes, yeah, to be clear, the female character on the
right looks to be interested in perhaps admiring the male figure.
The male figure, however, is a bit more salacious because
he's turned across his left shoulder and he is clearly
(13:43):
scari at her posterior her ruffle.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, her bustle, or ruffle her bustle indeed. And then
at the bottom we've got the final little kicker line
licensed to knock and butt in office hours seven pm
to one a m in some young lady these parlors.
This is absolutely it does feel like a joke. Is
it a joker, isn't it? Though? You know what I mean?
(14:07):
Maybe it's hiding behind the coyness.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Of a little joke. But you know what this fella
is up to. We know what this fellow I'm joking
if you're joking, right, and that kind of thing. But
also maybe this is a card you hand to someone
that you are already acquainted with, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
That's right, there's some cheekiness to all of these. We
have another great example, uh that says, I am see,
I can't read it. It's in like a real cursive,
the handwritten kind of uh script, who the and then
a sexy pop belly little devil?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's a picture?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So you write your name in here. So this is
very stylized. Fot it says, I am, And then you
write in your name. See why young?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
He says young? Okay, good eyes?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Who the devil? Or you? It looks like, yeah, young,
or you mean well, I have to write no.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I think nail though.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Who you are?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think you nailed it with young men? But who
the devil? Indeed are you? Some researchers think that the
escort cards may have actually been also used by queer
people as a way of subtly communicating with one another
in a time where this kind of thing would have
been completely verboten, you know, would have been perhaps even
subjects to prosecution in some cases. So this is a
(15:25):
very forward thinking way of folks to communicate with each
other and find love outside of the prying eye of
the very puritanical public and powers that be.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh and there's a conspiratorial aspect to this. This is
all a bit conspiratorial, honestly, but the escort cards in
the queer community at the time may have carried purposeful
typos and shout out to our research associate RED for
finding this, because these typos may have done one of
(15:59):
two things. First, they may have made it appear as
though someone was hitting on, you know, someone of the
same uh sexual orientation or uh se I should say
sexual identification. But then other times it may have been
like a case where you purposely went to that printer
(16:21):
because they've made those cards for that community, and it's
in a way that allows you plausible deniability, so you
can say, you know that you know that that foppish dandy,
that that macaroni young earl in Twistle has has said
some some saucy and unacceptable things about you, milord, and
(16:46):
then you would say, well, that's ever so dreadful. They
must have misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'll tell you what this really reminds me I've been
in more modern times is the LGBTQ plus community. These
handkerchief codes that were originated in the nineteen seventies in
New York City as well as I think even there's
origins of it to date back to the San Francisco
gold Rush era. But it was a way of subtly
(17:13):
communicating sexual preference. And I mean you know within the
queer culture of types of activities, types with a high
degree of specificity, very high degree of specificity, and it
has a lot in common with the fan codes, because
it would be like a pink hanky worn on the
left or worn on the right meant something very different
(17:35):
depending on the color. And if you can actually go
to a website called the Closet Professor where you can
see a pretty incredible and in depth spreadsheet of this
kind of stuff. So you know, this Victorian flirting code
language really kind of continued to have an impact further
into history.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, and you can still see these kind of systems
of coded community in countries throughout the world and cultures
throughout the world in the modern day. It can seem
honestly quite unfamiliar to many of US Americans, or many
of us from the United States, but when you travel abroad,
(18:16):
you will run into things like this, and sometimes you
will accidentally find yourself in situations.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, Ben, aren't there still countries in the world where
being gay or being queer is illegal?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Absolutely, that is absolutely true. And then there are also
places where it's technically not a crime, but it's still
very culturally verbotan. One thing I will always remember, and
I can tell the story because enough time has passed.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I don't keep it very brief.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I went into the wrong store when I was living
in a small town in Guatemala and I was attempting
to attempting to buy a thing for a girl I
was courting, and it was a bridal store that also
sold flowers. And I don't know if there's a thing
(19:12):
for the whole country or if it's just the thing
that happened at the store, but flower code stuff. I
think I asked for the wrong type of flowers. Spanish
at the time was not super great, and so the
person who was running the place took me to a
kid you not a secret back room where they sold
(19:33):
things that I was not ready to buy.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh wow? That can you be more specific?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
All air not on a family, but it's very do
you know me, man, I'm chill, I'm diplomatic. I'm not
trying to step on toes and to read the room.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Absolutely. Oh no, I didn't want to read that room though. No, no, no,
you were forced to, at least to some small degree. Ben.
We talked a little bit in part one of this
series about how a lot of these codes. We were
relegated to the upper class because a silk fan was
an expensive accessory. You know, having these types of cards
printed was not cheap either. All of the different flowers
(20:11):
required to communicate through that kind of code also not cheap.
This was, however, some of the early days of personal
ads in newspapers, which were a little more affordable to
folks who could not participate in some of these more
high falutin methods of low key flirtation.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, classified advertisements, you know that is something that several
of us in the audience today may remember. I wonder
whether anybody listening, any of our fellow ridiculous historians, have
ever had the hypothetical pleasure of publishing a classified advertisement,
(20:53):
Because when we came along, I think personals in print
were still a thing, but a lot more people were
already online, like Craigslist or something.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Craigslist Missed Connections, remember.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I loved reading missed connections.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Can tell at home that they're young.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Let's double dragging it, Max. You might be a little
young for miss connections too, so miss connections in a
lot of local papers. But then especially on Craigslist, was
you were shot in the dark. Your needle in the haystack,
attempt to say that you found someone interesting. You saw them,
(21:32):
you may not have even spoken with them, and you
were so entrance that you wanted to know more about them,
so you tried to describe them. And typically the way
people would describe them was all ensconced within that.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Moment that amazed them, right, but absolutely in a flirtatious fashion.
All right, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It would never be like I'm angry at you because
you cut line of Blockbuster. It was always like the
woman who cut a line at Blockbuster with the chestnut
brown hair and those entrancing green eyes. When I asked
if you also liked sugar babies or whatever, what's a
candy Blockbuster? There are some milk duds, milk duds. When
(22:17):
I asked if you liked milk duds, I think you
understood what I was really asking.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Can I just say I found an article from Vox
from twenty sixteen. I analyzed ten thousand Craigslist misconnections. Here's
what I learned by Ilia Blenderman. Just to give you
a few examples. Analyst girl in blue slash, white floral
dress on en train headed uptown at nine pm Monday,
m for W. What is M for W?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Men for women or men's Thank you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I'm such a child cute brunette girl reading who shared
my table at the bean on Monday M for W
misconnections so they can really be quite pithy, like an
early example of tweets.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh and real quick. I can't believe we found this, Noel,
thank you for bringing this, bringing up this lost internet artifact,
this blast from the past. My favorite is uh, you
farted near the produce. You were the hot brunette with
curves that farted near the produce this weekend. I was
(23:22):
this tall guy next to you that looked over and asked,
was that you? You quickly replied no, wasn't me. You
almost seem insulted. I was, I would ask. As this
step grew, you continued to deny your flatulence, but it
was evident I tried to get rid of the stench
by waving a couple of loafs of bread from Lapagnier.
You proceeded to storm off in an angry manner. You
(23:43):
are beautiful and even though you are a liar and
fart like at Clyesdale, I would love to meet up
for a drink sometime.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Ben what was it.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Who was the Ulysses writer that was really into flies?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
James Joyce.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
That is so James Joyce. He's looking for a artie
princess and.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Max popped onto the onto the chat for a second.
Oh my, I just had to read that. Thank you, Noel.
I forgot about miss connections. I was obsessed with those.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, no, they're very obsession worthy and you can definitely
check out some examples of that if there's a quick
cursory Google. And that Vox article I referenced is incredibly
detailed and in depth and sort of like a quintessential
analysis of this cultural moment. But let's talk about the
(24:32):
Victorian predecessor to missed Connections and the personals ads. I
always wonder but never bothered to. Look why they're called
classified ads. It's pretty obvious in my mind. Classified means secrets,
you know, government secret stuff, but it just means they're
classified in different categories like things for sale, personals want ads, jobs,
and things like that. But yeah, what was the deal
(24:53):
with Victorian flirtatious ads? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, you had as a man, you had better luck
with this option because it was essentially what we would
call a dead drop in some other industries, you know
how like in spy movies you have a dead drop
to convey information. You put the message, you know, in
the trunk of a tree, a certain tree apart.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
A trash band or something like that as well. Yeah,
and so these personal.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Ads I love the double enthalmesra they're classified or the
double meaning. These personal ads were dead drops because the
person replying to you, right, you wouldn't know who was
reading it was anybody who was literate and could get
a newspaper. And when they reply to you, it's a
one way street for them unless they provide a return address.
(25:43):
So there's a level of security there that doesn't really
exist when you have the intercession of the chaperone or
the intercession of the household staff. It was always kind
of improper in the Victorian era for a woman you
directly say what she was looking for in a partner, right,
(26:05):
So the misconnections thing didn't really exist at the same
level of a hilarity, maybe arguably as you would find
on Craigslist. But you could place an ad to paper
as a last ditch effort to avoid dying alone. Thanks
to her pale red for that turn of phrase, and
(26:27):
Noel when we're looking into some of the sources, we
found some pretty illuminating examples.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, there's an article that Wren linked us to date,
like a Victorian Courtship and Romance in the Victorian Era
by Ada Loewen Clark on a website called Friends of
Dalnovert dot Ca, which I believe is a museum, and
she actually very cleverly kind of put this in the
tender format, and it's got a very you know, old
(26:56):
Victorian image of a young lady apparently named Polly twenty
three seeking a sensible, good natured husband who is fond
of laughing and fun. Mmm mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And it makes sense too. I believe in a lot
of these advertisements it would be somewhat uncommon to have
a photograph published as well, because I would give away
your identity.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So, now, if you are, if you are young Polly,
and maybe your household staff and your parents and your
relatives are just cracking down and they're mean to you
because you know you're getting the wrong kind of escort
or acquaintance cards or the wrong kind of flowers, then
you could perhaps sneak away on your own and get
(27:42):
this message out to the world and then maybe the
people replying to you would be smart enough to send
a letter that did not look overly flirtatious.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
That's right, and this would have been less common for women.
And there was another phenomenon known as the redundant see
where women outnumbered men in Great Britain by over half
a million, and this was seen as a genuine crisis
and forced the Victorians to kind of re evaluate their
understanding of gender roles and led to something of a
(28:15):
feminist movement that would lead to more focus on women's
rights in the workplace as well as middle class women.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, go team, And this is where we also see
the beginning or I guess the turn of the conversational
corner toward a future episode perhaps on a queer identity
in the Victorian era, which was very much a thing
(28:44):
and very much repressed, right, And you can see clear
evidence of this throughout the historical record. Ren said enclosing,
I'm going to leave you with this picture of quote
two very platonic girlfriends who some how learned to make
do without husbands.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
That was another last ditch effort to keep from dying alone,
was just to move in with a girlfriend. And this
picture that you're describing ben. One of them is very clearly,
almost satirically. It would seem dressed in a men's clothing,
like wearing a suit and a corsage, and then the
other women seated on kind of a fainting couch, is
(29:27):
you know, wearing more period appropriate women's clothes, and they
are kind of in an embrace. I mean this very
much is a you know, even by today's standards, a
very queer forward image.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
They were regarding each other. We could say they were
fondly right right, And this this reminds me of you
know that old Trope build situation where they say, oh, yeah,
you know, Aunt Becky never got married, but she lived
with her roommate for many, many many.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Dude, even in the nineties. You know, I grew up
and my best friend growing up from elementary school, he
had a queer parents, two women who lived together and
raised him, you know, as as his parents, of course,
and it was not something that they were hiding per
se or ashamed of. I slept over there many many times,
(30:23):
but it just wasn't exactly something that would be considered
socially acceptable at the time publicly. I actually distinctly remember
calling in to a local kind of conservative talk radio
show as a kid and talking about this because I
heard them kind of being not negative about this kind
of thing, and I just felt the need to call
(30:45):
in and say that my friend had, you know, two moms,
and they were absolutely loving, wonderful parents. Nice man.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Good on you as young nol. And let's say, with
just a few little notes of context to set us
off here. One we teased in part one about chicken
right right, we mentioned that the idea of white and
dark meat does not come from your local chicken joy.
It comes from the Victorian era because they were afraid
(31:15):
of saying breast and legs at the dinner table. This
is how sexually repressed society had to pretend to.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Be lest a fella be tempted with titillating thoughts of
a lady impious, profane. But isn't that the funny thing
about all of this, Ben, is that these societal structures
did nothing but drive this kind of behavior underground.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yes, that always tends to be the case with this
exact breast stuff, And I would argue it just made
some things weirder and made people hornier. It made people
hornier because now everything is naughty. So it's another example
of how prohibition very rarely works out the way it's
imposers in ten like even this even affected Victorian furniture.
(32:06):
If you look at Victorian furniture, if you like us
or fans of things like antique road show, then you'll
see a lot of high detail on this furniture. Ornate legs,
the Claude feet, you know, like everything at Claude feet.
For some reason, they were very into feet and claws. However,
(32:26):
a lot of people would drape fabric over these amazing
works of material art because they thought they were so
repressed that they thought it might be sexually provocative, like
someone would what be driven to drink because they saw
a claw foot bathtub and they just couldn't control themselves.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So funny, And speaking of saucy little devils, ben the
Victorians and food, the Victorians were also the first to
use imageries of Lucifer himself, the Christian devil, to denote
things like spiciness in condiments, for example.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we also know that, by the way,
repression doesn't mean that these people were any more or
less than the kind of people you run in today.
And it might be surprising to realize there were some
things that our current societies would consider honestly pretty gross,
(33:26):
that victorious society was totally fine with, like marrying your cousin.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
One hundred percent. And we mentioned I believe in part
one Prince Albert and his secret piercing, And that's a
great example of something that is just hidden beneath the surface,
you know, because that piercing today in many circles, would
be considered the height of kink.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
It just seems impractical. I mean, if you have one,
do as thou wilt, you know, as long as everything's consensual.
I believe it has proven to be a myth.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Well, no, they don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
They don't know.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
They it was named after him, they don't know if
he had one.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I'm going to say that right now.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
It's also like, you know, medical science and stuff like
that really lagged behind a lot of other things. So
it's just like in this time period, having that piercing
just would seem really like dangerous. Yeah, it's really infected
and you died.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's an escort card for infection at that point. But
what I love that callback And I'm even speaking more
to the point that Queen Victoria married her first cousin
and was deeply in love with him. That's the Prince
alb what we're talking about, nine children.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Quite a few kids. Yeah, so they very much were
going at it. For Albert's twenty fourth birthday. In fact,
the young Victoria's sent him quite the seductive portrait of herself,
sort of what you might consider a boudoir photo, or
is that right, like some of those kind of yeah, yeah, yeah,
a type style thing, you know, sexy but class indeed
(35:03):
neglige for self, in which she wears her hair, oh goodness, gracious,
partially down around her exposed shoulders against a sexy red
velvet cushion.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And everything about this portrait is purposeful. It is, as
you said, boudoirs. The red velvet cushion is supposed to
be part of the whole, you know, the whole gestalt effect.
Exposed shoulders the devil. You say, why she's the.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Queen turning that velvet cushion in and of itself. I
think you were getting at Ben. There's a certain implication,
a testure that is in line with a certain female
body part.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Let's just say, let's just say, I love how we
are three grown men. We're super mature and we're so
happy that you have tuned in and joined us for
Part two of the Ridiculous History of Victorian Flirting. There's
more about flirtation on the way. We'd love to hear
(36:07):
your ideas. Folks. Drop by our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians.
In the meantime, big big thanks to our super producer,
the literal man of the hour, mister Max Williams, also
his biological brother Alex Tijuana Williams, who composed this lap
and bop.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Indeed, Christopher Hasiotis and Eve's Jeffcoats here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland,
the Quist, aj Bahamas, Jacob's The.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Puzzler, and of course big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance,
Big Spinach, Thanks to you, doctor Lance, Big thanks to
Rude Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime, and big thanks to
honestly big thanks to Max for editing this. I know
I had a lot of lot, went to a lot
of weird places man.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for the number one
guy who sets our hearts a flutter. We are so
twitter painted for our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
He's our number one number two. Is that a thing?
I kind of like it. You're more than number two,
You're number one in our hearts. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
For some reason, number one, number two makes me think
of I've gotta say it, my favorite coop.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You know, that's all right, that's Max. No, no, no,
everyone's favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Poop, which is it's funny. This is unrelated to anything,
but I saw quite recently a four year old absolutely
burned down an adult with the most vicious insult. The
four year old could think of, Oh, poopy head, poopy,
she said. She said someone I said, oh, you know,
(01:20):
don't I'm not going to give names because I'll get
in trouble, but oh, don't you want to come over
here and you know, give Auntie a hug? And then
she said, no, you're a poop.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And she said it was like just an old poop.
She said it was such vim.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And Visita like you could tell the she hadn't learned
the word MF yet.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You know, it's funny, dude, that that is an insult.
I guess it makes me think of like I love
Lucy when they go oh you old pooh, you know, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Very lighthearted insults and sometimes lighthearted insults are a part
of flirting. You Well, that's mister Noel Brown. I am
ben Bollen. This is Part two of the Ridiculous History
(02:11):
of specifically Victorian flirting. Noel, what did we learn in
part one?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So much? We learned how to flirt via fan code
and postage stamp code, sending little sexy missives through the
mail and in person by fluttering our fan implement.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
There's a one specific signal you can use. Oh so silly.
You put your fan on your right ear and tell
some what you have changed.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh, that's right, you have indeed changed. It's sort of
the Victorian version of looks maxing, or what do they
call it mogging? And or oh, geez, what's the other
word for it. We kind of suck cheeks in mogging.
It's looks maxing. Mogging is another word for it. It's
jen alpha stuff where you kind of suck your cheeks
in and sort of make that blue steel face like
from Zoolander, and sort of stroke your cheeks, you know,
(03:01):
with a two for four fingers and a thumb.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Okay, am I doing this right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh definitely. Yeah. You gotta stuck you cheeks in a
little more though, make make you know, cheek bones, lips, duckliss. Yeah,
it is a little more, a little on the ducklips side. Yep,
you got it there, Ben.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, we're trying. Uh, you'll have to trust us because
we are an audio podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
We look ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yes, there's a whole history to it. We're also excited
to explore this with you folks. Uh we have our
own uh Maximill and I have our own, uh personal
ridiculous histories with flirting. I had a story just behind
the curtain on part one that, upon reconsideration, I asked
(03:48):
us to pull it from the air because.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, it was just for us, man, we get to
keep that particular flavor sauce in the family. As they say, well,
you know, we can maybe do a little low key.
It was basically just a description of you being flirted
upon by a lady during a social interaction, and you
maybe not until we discussed it after the fact, didn't
(04:13):
realize quite how horny a flirtation it was. And Beanie
Weenie's were involved, That's true. It was use your imagination, folks.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Fretty forward. Actually yeah, yeah, Well, when some lose some
the course of true love never did run smooth. If
somehow you are the person who is the subject of
that story, no love lost. And if you happen to
be hearing this, you know, what's up girl? So anyway,
(04:44):
we'll leave it there. Our first part of part two
here continues with Victorian flirtation methods because for many people
in the era, for women in particular, society was so oppressive.
You couldn't just come out and say what's up, Donathan Esquire?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
No, you had there there was a certain, very rigidly
codified decorum that involved things like calling cards, and you know,
obviously this would make its way into business culture.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I think that's sort of the origin of that thing.
If we'd have like, you know, your name and business
and address and phone number and appropriate to you know,
contact information. But in the Victorian era these were referred
to as escort cards and ben it also reminds me
of another type of card that happened later that we
talked about in previous episodes of the dance card, the
(05:43):
idea of my dance card being full and only having
a certain number of slots for a fella to cut
a rug with you at certain you know, cotillion type events.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves there. What in fact
was the Victorian escort card or flirtation card or a
acquaintance card.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, this is this is great And I love
that callback and all to the dance card, because I
think we both always wondered whether that was a real.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Thing, very real, very real, a library book, like a
lending card, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, it's for dancing, Yeah, yeah, for you know, for
the ballroom. That's a great comparison as well.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So honestly, in Victorian time, dancing might have been considered scandalous, you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Know, yeah yeah. And so if if the business card
or the calling card is the G rated thing, then
the dance card might would have been the PG thirteen thing.
And this is trending toward R rated the flirtation acquaintance
escort card. They were a purposeful kind of sexy play
(06:46):
on the calling card. And you would if you were.
This was only for members of the aristocracy, of course,
because who could afford to have this many different specific
printed cards.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, the lettering alone and the card stock it's bone perhaps,
you know, with a nice seraphy text.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Oh gosh, and the paperweight. So this is the issue here.
Escort cards would be like a very what we would
see is a very unsexy Valentine's Day card almost because
you would you would come by and you would say,
you know, is Dame Algervine home? And they would, you know,
(07:28):
the butler or whomever would say referreely not, and often
the aristok the caller would realize they weren't home, and
they would say, well, tell that scrumptious little the toffee topop.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Too far?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What's the thing that Tell that scrumptious little strawberry trifle
that Lord Butterball is stopped by for a visit. And
then they would, uh, this is of.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Course all in Lord Butterball's had because those words would
not have been uttered aloud to the chaperone, who was
basically the gatekeeper of said lady person right.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
It said, he would have made, you know, like a
stiff upper lip sniff and thanked the butler and then
dropped his calling card. But his calling card, the dame
would find out later, was actually his acquaintance or escorts card.
And escort cards were often used to encourage that kind
(08:27):
of secrecy that people really like in flirtation, because you know,
if you're a young woman, you've almost always got your sheperone.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
That's right, which could be the butler in this situation,
which could be a family member, a brother, you know,
someone that again would kind of gatekeep this young woman
to make sure that she was not up to anything
untoward with a fella. So a young man could opt
to slip his crush an escort card, and in turn,
then she could respond via the signal detailed in the
(08:59):
card or return a card of her own in response.
And you're absolutely right with the Valentines comparison, because they
would have borderline greeting card ask messages which maybe was
more co opted from this type of language, you know,
as a joke, but things like may I have the
pleasure of seeing you home this evening, or something a
little more straight to the point, let's get acquainted for
(09:19):
fun and results. That is such an AKA, what a child?
What are these said results men.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, they have to they have to be a child,
that's what they're talking about. But also, to your subtle
American psycho reference earlier, it sounds like a Patrick Bateman
pickup line, Let's get acquainted for fun and results.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
In Bateman's case, results might be your you know, bloody discourse.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, timely to buyse right. So a quick tangent here
just for film buffs. I'm sure you've run into this
to Nolan Max, have you? So? I've read the book
right by Brett Easton. Ella's someone to say and I.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Absolutely pornographic, by the way, not for the faint of heart.
The movie is pg. Thirteen in comparison.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yes, yes, very good point. And the thing that is
not clear in either the novel nor in the film,
particularly in the film, I think, is whether Bateman is
actually doing any of those horrific.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Acts of violence, and whether or not he gets caught
a lot of you know, the book is in the
film definitely a satire of the excesses of nineteen eighties
Wall Street culture and just the absolute kind of vacuousness
of people in that strata, and the idea being that
he is or is not actually doing these things if
he is that people are so aloof and up their
(10:49):
own keysters that they're just not even noticing because no
one's paying attention to anybody else.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering, though, what do
you fall ben on whether or not he actually gave
these things. Yeah, I'm still I'm still wrestling with it
because there are a few there are a few moments,
especially in the film, where it seems that he's really
doing something, like when he has to wash his sheets
(11:17):
in the at the laundromat, right and they say there
are some stains. That's an outside person sightly, Yes, yeah,
but that's uh that that's the weird.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
The last note on this, because I know we have
to get to it. You know. Patrick Bateman Ian American
psycho looks a little bit like Josh Clark.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Oh, I see that. Just to take great great bone structure.
By the way, great cheekbones very looks maxing, Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Very similar. Mouth. I think about people's mouths a lot,
which is what I would put on my acquaintance card.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Got a pretty mouth, which you definitely do bet another
thing on this particular. Oh yeah, of course you get
great bone structure too. On this acquaintance card that are
a wonderful research associate. Wren Fair Ren Fest Jones supplied
(12:14):
us with it's got the let's get acquainted for fun
and results and then makes the you know weird flex
of I am a millionaire's only son, check, not married,
still looking for someone to love. And then there's a
big old open space that is wrapped around this kind
of ribbon that spans the length of the card or
(12:34):
the width of the card. And on each side, on
the left side there's a gentleman with a cane and
a top hat and his fine you know, coach sharp
and shoes, sharply dressed, sitting And on the other side
is a lady with her parasol and you know, petty
coats and a roughly hat.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That probably has a huge pin in it, just no doubt.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Oh, check out our episode on hat pin Warriors. You
know what was it? The wolf whistlers or the cap callers?
That was it? They had to defend themselves against these
rascal mash I love the the mashers. I love the
separation that this line that's available for writing a particular
message is giving between these two. There is this like
(13:17):
will they won't they? Kind of sexual tension just communicated
on the card alone.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yes, yeah, to be clear, the female character on the
right looks to be interested in perhaps admiring the male figure.
The male figure, however, is a bit more salacious because
he's turned across his left shoulder and he is clearly
(13:43):
scari at her posterior her ruffle.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, her bustle, or ruffle her bustle indeed. And then
at the bottom we've got the final little kicker line
licensed to knock and butt in office hours seven pm
to one a m in some young lady these parlors.
This is absolutely it does feel like a joke. Is
it a joker, isn't it? Though? You know what I mean?
(14:07):
Maybe it's hiding behind the coyness.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Of a little joke. But you know what this fella
is up to. We know what this fellow I'm joking
if you're joking, right, and that kind of thing. But
also maybe this is a card you hand to someone
that you are already acquainted with, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
That's right, there's some cheekiness to all of these. We
have another great example, uh that says, I am see,
I can't read it. It's in like a real cursive,
the handwritten kind of uh script, who the and then
a sexy pop belly little devil?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's a picture?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
So you write your name in here. So this is
very stylized. Fot it says, I am, And then you
write in your name. See why young?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
He says young? Okay, good eyes?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Who the devil? Or you? It looks like, yeah, young,
or you mean well, I have to write no.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
I think nail though.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Who you are?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I think you nailed it with young men? But who
the devil? Indeed are you? Some researchers think that the
escort cards may have actually been also used by queer
people as a way of subtly communicating with one another
in a time where this kind of thing would have
been completely verboten, you know, would have been perhaps even
subjects to prosecution in some cases. So this is a
(15:25):
very forward thinking way of folks to communicate with each
other and find love outside of the prying eye of
the very puritanical public and powers that be.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh and there's a conspiratorial aspect to this. This is
all a bit conspiratorial, honestly, but the escort cards in
the queer community at the time may have carried purposeful
typos and shout out to our research associate RED for
finding this, because these typos may have done one of
(15:59):
two things. First, they may have made it appear as
though someone was hitting on, you know, someone of the
same uh sexual orientation or uh se I should say
sexual identification. But then other times it may have been
like a case where you purposely went to that printer
(16:21):
because they've made those cards for that community, and it's
in a way that allows you plausible deniability, so you
can say, you know that you know that that foppish dandy,
that that macaroni young earl in Twistle has has said
some some saucy and unacceptable things about you, milord, and
(16:46):
then you would say, well, that's ever so dreadful. They
must have misunderstood.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'll tell you what this really reminds me I've been
in more modern times is the LGBTQ plus community. These
handkerchief codes that were originated in the nineteen seventies in
New York City as well as I think even there's
origins of it to date back to the San Francisco
gold Rush era. But it was a way of subtly
(17:13):
communicating sexual preference. And I mean you know within the
queer culture of types of activities, types with a high
degree of specificity, very high degree of specificity, and it
has a lot in common with the fan codes, because
it would be like a pink hanky worn on the
left or worn on the right meant something very different
(17:35):
depending on the color. And if you can actually go
to a website called the Closet Professor where you can
see a pretty incredible and in depth spreadsheet of this
kind of stuff. So you know, this Victorian flirting code
language really kind of continued to have an impact further
into history.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, and you can still see these kind of systems
of coded community in countries throughout the world and cultures
throughout the world in the modern day. It can seem
honestly quite unfamiliar to many of US Americans, or many
of us from the United States, but when you travel abroad,
(18:16):
you will run into things like this, and sometimes you
will accidentally find yourself in situations.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, Ben, aren't there still countries in the world where
being gay or being queer is illegal?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Absolutely, that is absolutely true. And then there are also
places where it's technically not a crime, but it's still
very culturally verbotan. One thing I will always remember, and
I can tell the story because enough time has passed.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I don't keep it very brief.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
I went into the wrong store when I was living
in a small town in Guatemala and I was attempting
to attempting to buy a thing for a girl I
was courting, and it was a bridal store that also
sold flowers. And I don't know if there's a thing
(19:12):
for the whole country or if it's just the thing
that happened at the store, but flower code stuff. I
think I asked for the wrong type of flowers. Spanish
at the time was not super great, and so the
person who was running the place took me to a
kid you not a secret back room where they sold
(19:33):
things that I was not ready to buy.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Oh wow? That can you be more specific?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
All air not on a family, but it's very do
you know me, man, I'm chill, I'm diplomatic. I'm not
trying to step on toes and to read the room.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Absolutely. Oh no, I didn't want to read that room though. No, no, no,
you were forced to, at least to some small degree. Ben.
We talked a little bit in part one of this
series about how a lot of these codes. We were
relegated to the upper class because a silk fan was
an expensive accessory. You know, having these types of cards
printed was not cheap either. All of the different flowers
(20:11):
required to communicate through that kind of code also not cheap.
This was, however, some of the early days of personal
ads in newspapers, which were a little more affordable to
folks who could not participate in some of these more
high falutin methods of low key flirtation.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, classified advertisements, you know that is something that several
of us in the audience today may remember. I wonder
whether anybody listening, any of our fellow ridiculous historians, have
ever had the hypothetical pleasure of publishing a classified advertisement,
(20:53):
Because when we came along, I think personals in print
were still a thing, but a lot more people were
already online, like Craigslist or something.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Craigslist Missed Connections, remember.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I loved reading missed connections.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Can tell at home that they're young.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Let's double dragging it, Max. You might be a little
young for miss connections too, so miss connections in a
lot of local papers. But then especially on Craigslist, was
you were shot in the dark. Your needle in the haystack,
attempt to say that you found someone interesting. You saw them,
(21:32):
you may not have even spoken with them, and you
were so entrance that you wanted to know more about them,
so you tried to describe them. And typically the way
people would describe them was all ensconced within that.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Moment that amazed them, right, but absolutely in a flirtatious fashion.
All right, yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It would never be like I'm angry at you because
you cut line of Blockbuster. It was always like the
woman who cut a line at Blockbuster with the chestnut
brown hair and those entrancing green eyes. When I asked
if you also liked sugar babies or whatever, what's a
candy Blockbuster? There are some milk duds, milk duds. When
(22:17):
I asked if you liked milk duds, I think you
understood what I was really asking.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Can I just say I found an article from Vox
from twenty sixteen. I analyzed ten thousand Craigslist misconnections. Here's
what I learned by Ilia Blenderman. Just to give you
a few examples. Analyst girl in blue slash, white floral
dress on en train headed uptown at nine pm Monday,
m for W. What is M for W?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Men for women or men's Thank you?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I'm such a child cute brunette girl reading who shared
my table at the bean on Monday M for W
misconnections so they can really be quite pithy, like an
early example of tweets.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh and real quick. I can't believe we found this, Noel,
thank you for bringing this, bringing up this lost internet artifact,
this blast from the past. My favorite is uh, you
farted near the produce. You were the hot brunette with
curves that farted near the produce this weekend. I was
(23:22):
this tall guy next to you that looked over and asked,
was that you? You quickly replied no, wasn't me. You
almost seem insulted. I was, I would ask. As this
step grew, you continued to deny your flatulence, but it
was evident I tried to get rid of the stench
by waving a couple of loafs of bread from Lapagnier.
You proceeded to storm off in an angry manner. You
(23:43):
are beautiful and even though you are a liar and
fart like at Clyesdale, I would love to meet up
for a drink sometime.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Ben what was it.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Who was the Ulysses writer that was really into flies?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
James Joyce.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
That is so James Joyce. He's looking for a artie
princess and.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Max popped onto the onto the chat for a second.
Oh my, I just had to read that. Thank you, Noel.
I forgot about miss connections. I was obsessed with those.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, no, they're very obsession worthy and you can definitely
check out some examples of that if there's a quick
cursory Google. And that Vox article I referenced is incredibly
detailed and in depth and sort of like a quintessential
analysis of this cultural moment. But let's talk about the
(24:32):
Victorian predecessor to missed Connections and the personals ads. I
always wonder but never bothered to. Look why they're called
classified ads. It's pretty obvious in my mind. Classified means secrets,
you know, government secret stuff, but it just means they're
classified in different categories like things for sale, personals want ads, jobs,
and things like that. But yeah, what was the deal
(24:53):
with Victorian flirtatious ads? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, you had as a man, you had better luck
with this option because it was essentially what we would
call a dead drop in some other industries, you know
how like in spy movies you have a dead drop
to convey information. You put the message, you know, in
the trunk of a tree, a certain tree apart.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
A trash band or something like that as well. Yeah,
and so these personal.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Ads I love the double enthalmesra they're classified or the
double meaning. These personal ads were dead drops because the
person replying to you, right, you wouldn't know who was
reading it was anybody who was literate and could get
a newspaper. And when they reply to you, it's a
one way street for them unless they provide a return address.
(25:43):
So there's a level of security there that doesn't really
exist when you have the intercession of the chaperone or
the intercession of the household staff. It was always kind
of improper in the Victorian era for a woman you
directly say what she was looking for in a partner, right,
(26:05):
So the misconnections thing didn't really exist at the same
level of a hilarity, maybe arguably as you would find
on Craigslist. But you could place an ad to paper
as a last ditch effort to avoid dying alone. Thanks
to her pale red for that turn of phrase, and
(26:27):
Noel when we're looking into some of the sources, we
found some pretty illuminating examples.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, there's an article that Wren linked us to date,
like a Victorian Courtship and Romance in the Victorian Era
by Ada Loewen Clark on a website called Friends of
Dalnovert dot Ca, which I believe is a museum, and
she actually very cleverly kind of put this in the
tender format, and it's got a very you know, old
(26:56):
Victorian image of a young lady apparently named Polly twenty
three seeking a sensible, good natured husband who is fond
of laughing and fun. Mmm mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
And it makes sense too. I believe in a lot
of these advertisements it would be somewhat uncommon to have
a photograph published as well, because I would give away
your identity.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So, now, if you are, if you are young Polly,
and maybe your household staff and your parents and your
relatives are just cracking down and they're mean to you
because you know you're getting the wrong kind of escort
or acquaintance cards or the wrong kind of flowers, then
you could perhaps sneak away on your own and get
(27:42):
this message out to the world and then maybe the
people replying to you would be smart enough to send
a letter that did not look overly flirtatious.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
That's right, and this would have been less common for women.
And there was another phenomenon known as the redundant see
where women outnumbered men in Great Britain by over half
a million, and this was seen as a genuine crisis
and forced the Victorians to kind of re evaluate their
understanding of gender roles and led to something of a
(28:15):
feminist movement that would lead to more focus on women's
rights in the workplace as well as middle class women.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, go team, And this is where we also see
the beginning or I guess the turn of the conversational
corner toward a future episode perhaps on a queer identity
in the Victorian era, which was very much a thing
(28:44):
and very much repressed, right, And you can see clear
evidence of this throughout the historical record. Ren said enclosing,
I'm going to leave you with this picture of quote
two very platonic girlfriends who some how learned to make
do without husbands.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
That was another last ditch effort to keep from dying alone,
was just to move in with a girlfriend. And this
picture that you're describing ben. One of them is very clearly,
almost satirically. It would seem dressed in a men's clothing,
like wearing a suit and a corsage, and then the
other women seated on kind of a fainting couch, is
(29:27):
you know, wearing more period appropriate women's clothes, and they
are kind of in an embrace. I mean this very
much is a you know, even by today's standards, a
very queer forward image.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
They were regarding each other. We could say they were
fondly right right, And this this reminds me of you
know that old Trope build situation where they say, oh, yeah,
you know, Aunt Becky never got married, but she lived
with her roommate for many, many many.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Dude, even in the nineties. You know, I grew up
and my best friend growing up from elementary school, he
had a queer parents, two women who lived together and
raised him, you know, as as his parents, of course,
and it was not something that they were hiding per
se or ashamed of. I slept over there many many times,
(30:23):
but it just wasn't exactly something that would be considered
socially acceptable at the time publicly. I actually distinctly remember
calling in to a local kind of conservative talk radio
show as a kid and talking about this because I
heard them kind of being not negative about this kind
of thing, and I just felt the need to call
(30:45):
in and say that my friend had, you know, two moms,
and they were absolutely loving, wonderful parents. Nice man.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Good on you as young nol. And let's say, with
just a few little notes of context to set us
off here. One we teased in part one about chicken
right right, we mentioned that the idea of white and
dark meat does not come from your local chicken joy.
It comes from the Victorian era because they were afraid
(31:15):
of saying breast and legs at the dinner table. This
is how sexually repressed society had to pretend to.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Be lest a fella be tempted with titillating thoughts of
a lady impious, profane. But isn't that the funny thing
about all of this, Ben, is that these societal structures
did nothing but drive this kind of behavior underground.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yes, that always tends to be the case with this
exact breast stuff, And I would argue it just made
some things weirder and made people hornier. It made people
hornier because now everything is naughty. So it's another example
of how prohibition very rarely works out the way it's
imposers in ten like even this even affected Victorian furniture.
(32:06):
If you look at Victorian furniture, if you like us
or fans of things like antique road show, then you'll
see a lot of high detail on this furniture. Ornate legs,
the Claude feet, you know, like everything at Claude feet.
For some reason, they were very into feet and claws. However,
(32:26):
a lot of people would drape fabric over these amazing
works of material art because they thought they were so
repressed that they thought it might be sexually provocative, like
someone would what be driven to drink because they saw
a claw foot bathtub and they just couldn't control themselves.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So funny, And speaking of saucy little devils, ben the
Victorians and food, the Victorians were also the first to
use imageries of Lucifer himself, the Christian devil, to denote
things like spiciness in condiments, for example.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, yeah, and we also know that, by the way,
repression doesn't mean that these people were any more or
less than the kind of people you run in today.
And it might be surprising to realize there were some
things that our current societies would consider honestly pretty gross,
(33:26):
that victorious society was totally fine with, like marrying your cousin.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
One hundred percent. And we mentioned I believe in part
one Prince Albert and his secret piercing, And that's a
great example of something that is just hidden beneath the surface,
you know, because that piercing today in many circles, would
be considered the height of kink.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
It just seems impractical. I mean, if you have one,
do as thou wilt, you know, as long as everything's consensual.
I believe it has proven to be a myth.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Well, no, they don't know.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
They don't know.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
They it was named after him, they don't know if
he had one.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
I'm going to say that right now.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
It's also like, you know, medical science and stuff like
that really lagged behind a lot of other things. So
it's just like in this time period, having that piercing
just would seem really like dangerous. Yeah, it's really infected
and you died.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
It's an escort card for infection at that point. But
what I love that callback And I'm even speaking more
to the point that Queen Victoria married her first cousin
and was deeply in love with him. That's the Prince
alb what we're talking about, nine children.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Quite a few kids. Yeah, so they very much were
going at it. For Albert's twenty fourth birthday. In fact,
the young Victoria's sent him quite the seductive portrait of herself,
sort of what you might consider a boudoir photo, or
is that right, like some of those kind of yeah, yeah, yeah,
a type style thing, you know, sexy but class indeed
(35:03):
neglige for self, in which she wears her hair, oh goodness, gracious,
partially down around her exposed shoulders against a sexy red
velvet cushion.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And everything about this portrait is purposeful. It is, as
you said, boudoirs. The red velvet cushion is supposed to
be part of the whole, you know, the whole gestalt effect.
Exposed shoulders the devil. You say, why she's the.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Queen turning that velvet cushion in and of itself. I
think you were getting at Ben. There's a certain implication,
a testure that is in line with a certain female
body part.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Let's just say, let's just say, I love how we
are three grown men. We're super mature and we're so
happy that you have tuned in and joined us for
Part two of the Ridiculous History of Victorian Flirting. There's
more about flirtation on the way. We'd love to hear
(36:07):
your ideas. Folks. Drop by our Facebook page Ridiculous Historians.
In the meantime, big big thanks to our super producer,
the literal man of the hour, mister Max Williams, also
his biological brother Alex Tijuana Williams, who composed this lap
and bop.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Indeed, Christopher Hasiotis and Eve's Jeffcoats here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland,
the Quist, aj Bahamas, Jacob's The.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Puzzler, and of course big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance,
Big Spinach, Thanks to you, doctor Lance, Big thanks to
Rude Dudes over at Ridiculous Crime, and big thanks to
honestly big thanks to Max for editing this. I know
I had a lot of lot, went to a lot
of weird places man.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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