September 28, 2023 • 30 mins
The boys hit the road, traveling to Las Vegas and recording live. In this special episode, Ben, Noel, Max and guest producer Paul Dechant explore the evolution of Labor Day, from its origin to the strange -- and, let's be honest, ridiculous -- tradition of avoiding white clothing. With a special shout out to Max's snazzy Wedding White Pants.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. We've got our super producer, guest producer,
the man the myth legend, mister Paul Blackjack Decades Folks,
is here with us live.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Noel. I'm then you're Noel. We are live in Las Vegas.
It's true.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They call me the main smell by the way, Now
what was It's like top golf, but just the most
popular of aromas. But we are coming to you today
live from the iHeart Podcast studio powered by at the
House of Music at the iHeart Radio Music Festival.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We are very much and it's nighttime, though I said day.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
You may be listening to this during the day, so
I was just kind of trying to tick all the box.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Your chronological mileage may vary, So let's paint a picture.
Right now, Noel and I are sitting inside a booth,
a booth on the grounds of the T Mobile Arena
here in Las Vegas. Have we decided that we were
going to have our live episode tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We're going to treat it the way that we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Treat things when we're just hanging out as buddies.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well that's all. I like to think.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
That's how we treat every episode of Ridiculous History. But
I'm picking up what you're putting there.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's sweet. What we're saying is there's some background noise.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, it's I mean, we're not directly in the pit,
but we might as well be because they have a
whole pa set up outside with like video and stuff,
so we're kind of right outside that, but we can
suspend some disbelief.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Right Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, And there's a good energy going by. You know,
our pals Anny Reese and Lower and vogel Bomb just
walked by and they love podcasting too, so they were
about to sneak into the booth.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Going to bumb rush us man, but then they didn't
realize they were the giant glass doors. We have had
a few little intoxicated folks just like run into the
thing like a bird into a deck window doing stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
We did another podcast earlier, but today we are here
to talk specifically about something that we've definitely addressed adjacently.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Eugene V.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Debs, you might recall big figure in the labor movements.
He's sort of a top spell really is indeed a
top smell in that particular department.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But we're talking.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I think it may even have come up in that episode. Yes,
the idea of what's the deal is not even gonna
do it. What's up with the idea of not wearing
white or was it wearing white after Labor Day?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like a faux pas. It feels like an old
timey thing. It came up.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We looked it up and it was like, oh, turns
out it was something rich people invented to make themselves
stand apart from the rabble, which.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Also goes back to I didn't mention this on airon previously.
It also goes back to the idea of dress code
as discrimination, which is how dress codes started, right to
begin with.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Anything usually with code after it in those days, probably
not a good code, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And so we are, as is our wont in ridiculous history.
We are going to learn more about a holiday shortly
after it occurred. Yeah, we're good at that, but we're
very good. Hey, I think we did. Okay, we're within
a month, right.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
We want to give a shout out, of course to
another integral part of our show, our regular super producer
Max Williams, this rippin legend is too busy to hang
out with us.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
But recently I thought you were referring to the ripping
legend of his white pants. I thought you're going to say,
but he left us with this ripping legend, which they did.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
They allegedly did not rip, but he's still legend. And
remember he recently went to a wedding on a beach.
And so Max, like you are like me and hopefully
like you ridiculous historians. He loves nineties R and B.
He loves boys to men. So he bought a white
pair of pants, right, He didn't.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
He didn't have the white flowing linen shirt or the
or the or the jacket.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
But he was halfway there. He was half way, and
that's what he said. He really was.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
He felt that this was a worthy investment because it
was a light, you know, cool white pair of linen pants,
but all social underwek he bought specially as you would.
You know, you want you don't want it to it's
too sh it's too sheer. You know, you might see
the line.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Big coward through the white pants. You got to make
sure they match. But it's half a suit it's half
a suit. It's the first part of the suit investment,
which is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And it was halfway through September as well, and that's
when it hit our pal Max. He said, I can't
wear white right now because it's mid September. It's after
the national holiday we have here in the US, Labor Day.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yeah, and you know, I'm pretty sure he still wore them.
It was just he occurred to him that maybe I
should look into this. And I think through all of
Max's research, to through our research, through our conversations with Max, we've.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Determined that kind of wear white whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
This is sort of a dated cliche with the history
of it says a lot about the labor movement in general.
It didn't occur to me until little later, but you
might remember the terms, you know, white collar blue collar.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
White collar jobs are typically like higher paying jobs, you know,
more affluent type jobs, and blue collar jobs are usually
like manual labor jobs. And that had to do with
the history that we're about to talk about here, what
it meant to be able to wear white, not have
to worry about getting motor oil on your collar or whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
You know, because you don't do the physical labor. And
also it's funny that Labor Date in the US in
modern times, everybody loves it because.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It's a day off of work.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know, you have a barbecue, We have barbecues together
sometimes a solidity. But a lot of folks don't know
the origin of that, and I question whether that origin
has been purposely erased. You don't care about the two
union leaders in New Jersey who fought to take a
day to recognize the hard working to your point, no
(06:27):
blue collar people in their communities. So let's talk a
little bit about the rise of the labor movement, the
creation of Labor Day, and why people are to your point,
not supposed to wear white after it.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Well as it stands now, you know, with that day
of rest and the barbecuing and all that, it is
meant to represent, you know, the achievements of the labor
movements and to appreciate the labors of the laborers of
the labor movie. How laborious, laborious. But you know, that's
(07:09):
the idea is to celebrate you know, work, people that work,
both white collar and blue collar.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But again, historically a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Of organizing and unionizing and things like that have centered
around jobs that were easily exploited by bad people and
high positions of power. They felt that they essentially owned
these individuals, and that before the times of regulations that
protected these workers in the workplace so they could go
(07:37):
to work and not fear for their lives, people were
fearing for their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Oh and also we made peace with Sheryl Crowe.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That was pretty cool goodness, although I did run away
because you realize, you know, I told you and our
palm Matt Frederick that one of her songs triggered.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
An emotion and not an emotion.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I don't have a ton of them, I know, and
you were I think you already hit your quota.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
This was my third one.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Oh gosh, but no, right, I mean, like, before, you know,
the the advent of the labor movement, people were putting
themselves potentially in bodily harm just for the privilege of
making ends meet for their families.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So, the US Department of Labor has has a good
primer on this.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You can read it for free online.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
It's called History of Labor Day, and they point out
it's always observed the first Monday in September, which, by
the way, that's a negative for me because you know
how I feel about all those holidays that are like
this is the you know, was it Thanksgiving? Is like
this is Thursday or whatever. Yeah, I don't think either
of us know until someone more on the ball text.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Let's just snow that we have the day off and
that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And it wasn't until eighteen eighty six that a movement
began that, you know, asked for this to be made
a national holiday, and that's when some bills were passed.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It to just that pretty much a grassroots movement as well.
It wasn't until June twenty eighth, eighteen ninety for that
Congress passed an act making that first Monday in September
of every single year a legal holiday in the United States.
But what's interesting is in that explanation the Department of
(09:21):
Labor left out why Labor Day was.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
A thing in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That's the erasure I'm talking about, you know, to your point,
Let's go to Karen Zraich for New York Times. Karen
points out that in the late eighteen hundreds, many people
in this country in the United States, including Las Vegas.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Which wasn't built by that.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, many of these Americans toiled for twelve hours a day,
seven days a week, often in really physically dangerous, very
low paying jobs. And this was of course the heyday
of child labor in the US.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, Karen puts it beautifully well tragically, but you know,
she writes very well, and you know, to our earlier point,
the conditions were often very dangerous, and there was nobody
looking out for the workers to make sure they didn't
lose a hand or a limb or their lives.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, she says children worked to on farms and in
factories and mines. Conditions were often harsh and unsafe. It
was in this context that American workers held the first
Labor Day parade, marching from New York City Hall to
a giant picnic at an Uptown park on September fifth,
eighteen eighty two. And nol I love you know, I
(10:43):
love a protest, I love a march, but also I
love when that ends in a picnic called bear.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I love a picnic, and I love a parade, and
I love a good headline, which this one was working
men on Parade. That sounds like a delight, and that
came from the New York Times. The article actually appeared
on the very last page, which is kind of weak.
I would say, it seems like it should have gotten
a little bit more, you know, preferential treatment than that.
(11:12):
But it did say in this buried lead that ten
thousand people marched quote in an orderly and pleasant manner.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So that's so patrician. Maybe, you know, maybe that's why
they put it on the last page. Maybe if they
had like gotten a little rowdy, you know, it would
it would have made bigger headline. Some of these peasants
have military trainings.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
See how they are, I see how they march in
such an orderly man.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, that's not natural. They the workers were. The workers
were the.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Lower middle class members of the city, members of what
you might consider like guilds, you know, like you know,
certain things like bricklayers and shoemakers and dressmakers. Right, yeah,
people working in printing presses, people rolling cigars, folks work
in the dock. This wasn't yet an official holiday. And
(12:07):
so what's interesting and tragic about this, and quite courageous,
I would argue, is that a lot of those ten
thousand people were risking losing their job by showing up
by participating in this parade, which was actually a worker's
strike across professions.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
In eighteen ninety four, we've talked about this as well.
We had the Pullman strike, which was a big deal,
disrupting trade and disrupting a lot of the rail movement
there in the Midwest. And at this point, you know,
the federal government was not about this kind of behavior.
There was no protection for striking workers, There was no
(12:47):
protection for standing up for your rights to not be exploited,
and the government totally crushed them.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It was like a strike breaking type situation like the Pinkertons,
you know, Like I mean, honestly, they may have employed
the Pinkertons even you know, I heard a lot about
you know, what do they call boss Tweet and folks
like that, the Tammany Hall machine and all of that.
There was a lot of breaking up these strikes and
like you know, through physical force, through violence.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
In this parade, they clearly had the people on their side.
And that is the history of the labor movement. On
these signs in this parade slash protest that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Again ends in a picnic.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I just like that, you know, in a parade, we
love both these things. I'm terrible about it. I'm like,
what do they have at the picnic?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Anyway?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
On their signs they call for stuff like less work
and more pay, make us only work eight hours a
day and stop using convict labor. And the people cheered
for them because there was a clear divide between the.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Haves and the have nots.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
And as you said, the Pullman strike absolutely rocked the
United States. The Pullman Car Company going by the Pullman
Palace Car Company and fancy car and.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We say cars, we're talking about like train cars. You
know where this is also where a lot of the
weirdness surrounding the culture.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Of tipping began.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yes, the Pullman was inherently a bit of a racist
flex from the wealthy towards these African American porters.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I wouldn't even say a bit. It was very bad.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And the h and the Pullman company lowered wages on
the people who lived in these company towns. But when
they lowered the wages, they didn't lower the rent. So
this this company town now part of Chicago. Everybody, yeah, yeah,
(14:49):
in a in a burst of creative now yeah, and
so uh people obviously now they're getting robbed by their employer.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
There's no other way to look at it at that. Yeah,
they can plain.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And the owner, George Fullman, super humble guy you can
tell by the name of his company, he.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Said, fire them all.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And they striked, and other workers caught on in the
railway industry, and they were led by the guy who
referenced earlier, Eugene V. Debs listened to our two parter
about Debs. I know, Max loves him, and these folks
when they're striking, they said, look, if a pullman car
comes through here, we're not going to handle it. It
(15:31):
is basically invisible. We're going to take the freight and
passenger traffic to a halt. So they stopped. Chicago, which
is a huge economic hub at the time. Tens of
thousands of people just left work. Those strikes broke out,
and then, like you said, they were fired upon, they
(15:53):
were shot by.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Were not just fired you know, by the fat cats.
They were shot at. And we know that the American
government is not incapable of this kind of thing throughout history.
I mean, you had like student protests, it can't state,
you know, being rocked by violence from the the government.
You know, people being shot for literally just expressing how
(16:15):
they feel.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
You know, yeah, and it's it's speaking of the US government.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Let's shout out as super not great president Grover Cleveland
named Mike Grover.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Well, I don't know, Grover the sesame street Monster's kind
of cool.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, Grover Cleveland doesn't always get a top ten
listing of best presidents. But he signed this bill into
a law on June twenty eighth, eighteen ninety four, and
that's when Labor Day became a national holiday. People are
still guessing whether he had an ideological or ethical thing.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I mean, he was a politician. Did he just want
the votes to It's entirely like who knows? Who knows?
You know, who knows what's what? Evil alerks in the
hearts of men? The shadow that knows.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But yeah, he did do this thing, and it became
a national holiday. At that point looked a little different
than what it does look like today. You know, probably
was more reverential back then, you know, because it was
so close to the labor movement. You know, now it's
almost like people just kind of use it as an
excuse to barbecue and don't really think about what it means.
(17:20):
But to your point, been a lot of these holidays
that are on the fifth Thursday of the second Tuesday
of the month. Yeah, it's easy to lose track, you know.
And it's like sometimes it's good to think about history
a little bit, to remember why we even celebrate these.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Things in the first place, especially when we know it's ridiculous.
This is something that stands out to me, to you,
and to our pow Max as well. And you know,
speaking of collective action, one thing that is funny to me,
funny to you, and I think funny to Max as well,
is that labor Day seems kind of collective in its origin.
(17:56):
History may never know who actually created.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
It, Isn't that funny?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And usually in these types of stories, we did one
on Mother's Day, Father's Day, you know, usually you kind
of know and like there's sort of like a like
usually it's parallel thinking involved, right with this one, it's
it's a little bit different. We have some records that
show that in eighteen eighty two, a guy named Peter J. Maguire,
who is the general secretary of a kind of a
(18:28):
very early you know union, the Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners,
and also a co founder of the American Federation of
Labor said that there should be quote a general holiday
for the laboring classes to honor those who and this
is such good old timing language.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Who from rude nature have delved and carved all the
grandule we behold from rude nature, rough hun crawling fall
from the slime of history.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I love the way that was written.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Also props to my I'll knowle here because you improve
the end of that.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And it was fantastic. Yeah, I know. Thank you would
be awkward if you did a bad job. It's really
good at it.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So there's there are other issues. Other historians believe that
a guy named Matthew McGuire, machinist named Matthew McGuire, we
founded the.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Unclear.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It's sort of like the old idea of whether it
was Robert Johnson, the guitar player who sold his soul
to the devil in the Crossroads or Bobby Johnson, the
harmonica player.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Oh stam, they both could shred, that's for sure. I'm
that both of them made deals with that old scratch.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I'm wearing the wrong suit to talk about devils today.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
No, you look great, then, she just notice it has
got really cold in here. I feel like ye, she
ever running may maybe maybe it's the subject matter.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Maybe we are so.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Recent research appears to support this idea that Matthew McGuire
was the originator of the holiday, because he proposed the
holiday in eighteen eighty two when he was the secretary
of the Central Labor Union in New York. And a
lot of this comes from.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Both secretaries, both McGuire's never in the same room together,
one which one was, who's Tyler Durton?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You tell me right?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So if you look at the New Jersey Historical Society.
Shortly after President Cleveland signed the law creating Labor Day
as a national holiday across the United States, a paper
called the Patterson He's.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Coming on and you hear that? Yeah, I could probably
hear that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
A paper called the Patterson Morning Call published an opinion piece,
and Lil Wayne loves this, stating that the souvenir pin
should go to the alderman, Matthew McGuire of this city,
who is the undisputed author of Labor Day as a holiday.
And if you think about that, that's what six foot
seven foot is really about.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Six foot seven foot bunch, come mister Tallian antiomeyven Ina
that one.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh, the Wayne version of it. Oh, I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'm sorry, but you know, but that song is also
about laboring and about like well, it's probably about slavery, right,
I mean the tally man is not the guy's boss.
It's more like his overseer, right, I think I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, No, it's a good question.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And that was a very beautifully done segue, by the.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Way, Nail well anyway, I mean, yeah, Wayne is kicking.
I'm excited to hear what he's got to offer.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
No, we should we got to to McGuire's we it
doesn't really matter who established labored it.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
What matters is that it was established and then it
was passed into law, and now we should all do
a better job at remembering what it actually stands for.
But what about the pants? What about the pants?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
About the pant? About the pants and the shoes? Serial mom? Please? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
But by the way, also speaking of Cereal Mom, John
Waters just got like a like a Hollywood star, I believe,
and just got in like they have a huge retrospective
of his work. Ceial Mom is one of his lesser
appreciated films, but it's pretty accessible. I think it's I
would argue it's more accessible than pink flamingos. And it's
basically about who is it. Who's the Kathleen Turner well done? Yeah,
(22:14):
the serial mom who is a serial killer who murders
people for being rude and having bad manners. And there's
someone who she kills brutally disembowels. I want to say,
for wearing white shoes after labor Day.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And this question of labor day and fashion may have
stemmed from practicality. According to Amber Chanical for Farmer's Almanac,
she says, before air conditioning was invented, clothing choices were
important when you wanted to keep cool in summer, keep
warmer winter.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, hence Max's delightful sheer linen pantaloons.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think he just wants people to know he's been
working out.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I know, it's sure he does.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
He's got some he's got some good gams on boys
gets some gams.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
But you're right, like, think about the southern gentleman.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
It's fine linen suit sitting on the front porch and
join them in Juli.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean feel this, We're in Vegas. I'm wearing a
linen suit, right, Yeah, but I think there are even
versions of linen that are even more sheer and thin,
and they're you know, almost like silk, but like linen
that's very popular. It's like, what do you what a
John Hammond wore in Jurassic Park. I also it is.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I also I have my televangelist suit, but I stopped
wearing it because you know, it gives me the spirits.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I hear you, But this is the thing, right, So
this was in a way like also the longer you
wore this sheer linen kind of stuff, it sort of
showed that you could take vacations later in the summer
and that you had a little more you know.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Means you had a little more ends.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
And then it became sort of a sign of decorum
because it's almost like any further than that than Labor Day,
they've decided someone arbitrarily.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It's really just nothing to do with labor day. As well.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Have another version of the story that more does, but
this version is more about the calendar time and like
just don't show off.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Anything after that is just showing off.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And it's also a way of codifying a dress sort
of sense, you know, like fashion trend kind of like
standards you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, yeah, because Labor Day is the unofficial end of summer.
So once that arrived, historically people would start to wear warmer,
darker fabrics. Ye like blue collar shirts, right right. So
fashion it's a good weave, and so fashion, the world
of fashion decided, we're making it official, it's time to
(24:39):
retire that white clothing post Labor Day.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
And it was thought to be a sign that you
were doing a good job of getting acclimated to the club.
If you were nouveau reche and you started to adhere
to this schedule, then it was like, oh, they get it. Okay,
We're gonna let them in a little bit more, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And then to your point, there's the other story, the
idea that the rule came from the very wealthy in
the early nineteen hundreds. People wanted that lightweight, bright clothing,
the breezy dresses. It meant that you were able to
go on vacation, which a lot of people just can't do.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
That's right. I think I sort of mashed up the
two reasons how they got there, but they are connected.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I mean, the first one has just as much to
do with the rich sort of setting the tone as
the other.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Again, it's like anything beyond that point is just kind
of like showing off. And it's just a matter of
sort of like setting the tone and sort of being
like this is this. It's like seasons in fashion lines.
You know, you've got the fall season and all that stuff.
It just people love to have little weird rules that
only they know about, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And so to keep this.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Focus here, we're going to put a horse in the race, folks,
because you know, the one percent loves horse racing.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
If you don't want.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
To practice this idea of white being verboten after labor Day,
then don't pay attention to it.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Screw those certainly, you know, to to our point at
the top of the episode.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And I think what we pretty quickly found in a
cursory Google is that this is utterly kind of a
non thing. I think even in the circles that maybe
it used to be a thing in people. You know,
fashion rules are made to be broken, Trends are made
to be set by, like, you know, new people, and
it does seem to be if you have got a
pair of pants, like Max, you let those wear those
(26:30):
pants until they wear out in the crotch.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Let those ponies run, let them ride, let them ru
ride them, and let them run.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, as far as far back as the nineteen twenties,
fashion icons like Coco Chanel quote unquote revolutionized fashion and uh,
the industry of manufactured esthetics by keeping white as a
permanent staple in her wardrobe regardless.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Of the calendar. Where do you think j Lo got
the idea? Yeah? I mean I text her, but probably
someone else.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Apparently it's in a rider that every at least it
used to be in the whenever she's more popular.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I guess she's still populout it.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
But that everything, the furniture and stuff backstage had to
be white. The candles all had to be white. J
Lo loves white. But to your point about Coocheel, she
was just you know, being a what do you call that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And iconoclasts, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
But then if you do that with enough confidence, it
becomes the thing.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, And there are still plenty of people who consider
post labor day white clothing a no go.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
And that's fine.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
If you don't want to wear white after Labor Day,
then don't. But you should not consider yourself in charge
of other people's decisions if they have if they have
something they like to wear, then they can wear it
whenever they want, no matter what it looks like, no
matter the season.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And I think we may have stopped just short of
like the kind of end of the other theory about
the white like we mentioned the idea of a blue
collar and darker clothes and how white was sort of like,
I can wear this year round because I don't have
the kind of job that will get me give my
collar all schmoz.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Because I don't what you say labor, I don't labor
that much.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Therefore that it was a way of them separating themselves
from the have nots who would have had to wear
darker clothes, think like a mechanic's onesie, you know, like
the darker like denim or whatever. But that is where
the blue collar white collar kind of divide came. And
that version of the story to me, jives pretty well
(28:30):
with the other version that it was. They're very interrelated.
I think the true the truth of it lies somewhere
in between the two.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And hopefully we have solved the mystery a bit. We
want to congratulate everybody who was hanging out, as well
as our our pal.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Matt Frederick O drinking from a coconut. Our pal Andy
Kelly drinking from a coconut.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Both drinking from coconuts. You were listening to Ridiculous History
live at the iHeart Podcast Studio powered by Bose at
the House of Music at iHeart Music Festival. We have
so many people to thank Man you Debs. Yeah, I
mean he's the modern eugenp Yeah, he really is to
the people.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And Max for the first time I think, I mean, well,
he's been away before, but he's not here. But he
is here in spirit because he compiled this this research
doc for.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Thanks to our research associate, mister Max Williams. Thanks to
our guest super producer, Paul the black Jack Emperor Decades Wheezy.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I'm sorry, I just can't ignore him. He's just out there.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Thanks thanks to Wayne who you know, Wayne, just you
can just send one DM Okay, I get it. And
thanks of course as always to the continued labor movement.
Thanks to Christophrasiotis, Eves, Jeff Coat both here in spirit, Gabe, Lucy,
Alex Williams, Alice Cooper and thanks you No, thanks to you, Ben.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. We've got our super producer, guest producer,
the man the myth legend, mister Paul Blackjack Decades Folks,
is here with us live.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Noel. I'm then you're Noel. We are live in Las Vegas.
It's true.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They call me the main smell by the way, Now
what was It's like top golf, but just the most
popular of aromas. But we are coming to you today
live from the iHeart Podcast studio powered by at the
House of Music at the iHeart Radio Music Festival.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
We are very much and it's nighttime, though I said day.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
You may be listening to this during the day, so
I was just kind of trying to tick all the box.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Your chronological mileage may vary, So let's paint a picture.
Right now, Noel and I are sitting inside a booth,
a booth on the grounds of the T Mobile Arena
here in Las Vegas. Have we decided that we were
going to have our live episode tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
We're going to treat it the way that we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Treat things when we're just hanging out as buddies.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well that's all. I like to think.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
That's how we treat every episode of Ridiculous History. But
I'm picking up what you're putting there.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's sweet. What we're saying is there's some background noise.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, it's I mean, we're not directly in the pit,
but we might as well be because they have a
whole pa set up outside with like video and stuff,
so we're kind of right outside that, but we can
suspend some disbelief.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Right Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, And there's a good energy going by. You know,
our pals Anny Reese and Lower and vogel Bomb just
walked by and they love podcasting too, so they were
about to sneak into the booth.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Going to bumb rush us man, but then they didn't
realize they were the giant glass doors. We have had
a few little intoxicated folks just like run into the
thing like a bird into a deck window doing stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
We did another podcast earlier, but today we are here
to talk specifically about something that we've definitely addressed adjacently.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Eugene V.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Debs, you might recall big figure in the labor movements.
He's sort of a top spell really is indeed a
top smell in that particular department.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But we're talking.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I think it may even have come up in that episode. Yes,
the idea of what's the deal is not even gonna
do it. What's up with the idea of not wearing
white or was it wearing white after Labor Day?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like a faux pas. It feels like an old
timey thing. It came up.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
We looked it up and it was like, oh, turns
out it was something rich people invented to make themselves
stand apart from the rabble, which.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Also goes back to I didn't mention this on airon previously.
It also goes back to the idea of dress code
as discrimination, which is how dress codes started, right to
begin with.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Anything usually with code after it in those days, probably
not a good code, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
And so we are, as is our wont in ridiculous history.
We are going to learn more about a holiday shortly
after it occurred. Yeah, we're good at that, but we're
very good. Hey, I think we did. Okay, we're within
a month, right.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
We want to give a shout out, of course to
another integral part of our show, our regular super producer
Max Williams, this rippin legend is too busy to hang
out with us.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
But recently I thought you were referring to the ripping
legend of his white pants. I thought you're going to say,
but he left us with this ripping legend, which they did.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
They allegedly did not rip, but he's still legend. And
remember he recently went to a wedding on a beach.
And so Max, like you are like me and hopefully
like you ridiculous historians. He loves nineties R and B.
He loves boys to men. So he bought a white
pair of pants, right, He didn't.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
He didn't have the white flowing linen shirt or the
or the or the jacket.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
But he was halfway there. He was half way, and
that's what he said. He really was.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
He felt that this was a worthy investment because it
was a light, you know, cool white pair of linen pants,
but all social underwek he bought specially as you would.
You know, you want you don't want it to it's
too sh it's too sheer. You know, you might see
the line.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Big coward through the white pants. You got to make
sure they match. But it's half a suit it's half
a suit. It's the first part of the suit investment,
which is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And it was halfway through September as well, and that's
when it hit our pal Max. He said, I can't
wear white right now because it's mid September. It's after
the national holiday we have here in the US, Labor Day.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Yeah, and you know, I'm pretty sure he still wore them.
It was just he occurred to him that maybe I
should look into this. And I think through all of
Max's research, to through our research, through our conversations with Max, we've.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Determined that kind of wear white whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
This is sort of a dated cliche with the history
of it says a lot about the labor movement in general.
It didn't occur to me until little later, but you
might remember the terms, you know, white collar blue collar.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
White collar jobs are typically like higher paying jobs, you know,
more affluent type jobs, and blue collar jobs are usually
like manual labor jobs. And that had to do with
the history that we're about to talk about here, what
it meant to be able to wear white, not have
to worry about getting motor oil on your collar or whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
You know, because you don't do the physical labor. And
also it's funny that Labor Date in the US in
modern times, everybody loves it because.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It's a day off of work.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know, you have a barbecue, We have barbecues together
sometimes a solidity. But a lot of folks don't know
the origin of that, and I question whether that origin
has been purposely erased. You don't care about the two
union leaders in New Jersey who fought to take a
day to recognize the hard working to your point, no
(06:27):
blue collar people in their communities. So let's talk a
little bit about the rise of the labor movement, the
creation of Labor Day, and why people are to your point,
not supposed to wear white after it.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Well as it stands now, you know, with that day
of rest and the barbecuing and all that, it is
meant to represent, you know, the achievements of the labor
movements and to appreciate the labors of the laborers of
the labor movie. How laborious, laborious. But you know, that's
(07:09):
the idea is to celebrate you know, work, people that work,
both white collar and blue collar.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
But again, historically a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Of organizing and unionizing and things like that have centered
around jobs that were easily exploited by bad people and
high positions of power. They felt that they essentially owned
these individuals, and that before the times of regulations that
protected these workers in the workplace so they could go
(07:37):
to work and not fear for their lives, people were
fearing for their lives.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Oh and also we made peace with Sheryl Crowe.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That was pretty cool goodness, although I did run away
because you realize, you know, I told you and our
palm Matt Frederick that one of her songs triggered.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
An emotion and not an emotion.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I don't have a ton of them, I know, and
you were I think you already hit your quota.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
This was my third one.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Oh gosh, but no, right, I mean, like, before, you know,
the the advent of the labor movement, people were putting
themselves potentially in bodily harm just for the privilege of
making ends meet for their families.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So, the US Department of Labor has has a good
primer on this.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You can read it for free online.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
It's called History of Labor Day, and they point out
it's always observed the first Monday in September, which, by
the way, that's a negative for me because you know
how I feel about all those holidays that are like
this is the you know, was it Thanksgiving? Is like
this is Thursday or whatever. Yeah, I don't think either
of us know until someone more on the ball text.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Let's just snow that we have the day off and
that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And it wasn't until eighteen eighty six that a movement
began that, you know, asked for this to be made
a national holiday, and that's when some bills were passed.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It to just that pretty much a grassroots movement as well.
It wasn't until June twenty eighth, eighteen ninety for that
Congress passed an act making that first Monday in September
of every single year a legal holiday in the United States.
But what's interesting is in that explanation the Department of
(09:21):
Labor left out why Labor Day was.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
A thing in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That's the erasure I'm talking about, you know, to your point,
Let's go to Karen Zraich for New York Times. Karen
points out that in the late eighteen hundreds, many people
in this country in the United States, including Las Vegas.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Which wasn't built by that.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, many of these Americans toiled for twelve hours a day,
seven days a week, often in really physically dangerous, very
low paying jobs. And this was of course the heyday
of child labor in the US.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, Karen puts it beautifully well tragically, but you know,
she writes very well, and you know, to our earlier point,
the conditions were often very dangerous, and there was nobody
looking out for the workers to make sure they didn't
lose a hand or a limb or their lives.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, she says children worked to on farms and in
factories and mines. Conditions were often harsh and unsafe. It
was in this context that American workers held the first
Labor Day parade, marching from New York City Hall to
a giant picnic at an Uptown park on September fifth,
eighteen eighty two. And nol I love you know, I
(10:43):
love a protest, I love a march, but also I
love when that ends in a picnic called bear.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I love a picnic, and I love a parade, and
I love a good headline, which this one was working
men on Parade. That sounds like a delight, and that
came from the New York Times. The article actually appeared
on the very last page, which is kind of weak.
I would say, it seems like it should have gotten
a little bit more, you know, preferential treatment than that.
(11:12):
But it did say in this buried lead that ten
thousand people marched quote in an orderly and pleasant manner.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
So that's so patrician. Maybe, you know, maybe that's why
they put it on the last page. Maybe if they
had like gotten a little rowdy, you know, it would
it would have made bigger headline. Some of these peasants
have military trainings.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
See how they are, I see how they march in
such an orderly man.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, that's not natural. They the workers were. The workers
were the.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Lower middle class members of the city, members of what
you might consider like guilds, you know, like you know,
certain things like bricklayers and shoemakers and dressmakers. Right, yeah,
people working in printing presses, people rolling cigars, folks work
in the dock. This wasn't yet an official holiday. And
(12:07):
so what's interesting and tragic about this, and quite courageous,
I would argue, is that a lot of those ten
thousand people were risking losing their job by showing up
by participating in this parade, which was actually a worker's
strike across professions.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
In eighteen ninety four, we've talked about this as well.
We had the Pullman strike, which was a big deal,
disrupting trade and disrupting a lot of the rail movement
there in the Midwest. And at this point, you know,
the federal government was not about this kind of behavior.
There was no protection for striking workers, There was no
(12:47):
protection for standing up for your rights to not be exploited,
and the government totally crushed them.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It was like a strike breaking type situation like the Pinkertons,
you know, Like I mean, honestly, they may have employed
the Pinkertons even you know, I heard a lot about
you know, what do they call boss Tweet and folks
like that, the Tammany Hall machine and all of that.
There was a lot of breaking up these strikes and
like you know, through physical force, through violence.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
In this parade, they clearly had the people on their side.
And that is the history of the labor movement. On
these signs in this parade slash protest that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Again ends in a picnic.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I just like that, you know, in a parade, we
love both these things. I'm terrible about it. I'm like,
what do they have at the picnic?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Anyway?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
On their signs they call for stuff like less work
and more pay, make us only work eight hours a
day and stop using convict labor. And the people cheered
for them because there was a clear divide between the.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Haves and the have nots.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
And as you said, the Pullman strike absolutely rocked the
United States. The Pullman Car Company going by the Pullman
Palace Car Company and fancy car and.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We say cars, we're talking about like train cars. You
know where this is also where a lot of the
weirdness surrounding the culture.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Of tipping began.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yes, the Pullman was inherently a bit of a racist
flex from the wealthy towards these African American porters.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I wouldn't even say a bit. It was very bad.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
And the h and the Pullman company lowered wages on
the people who lived in these company towns. But when
they lowered the wages, they didn't lower the rent. So
this this company town now part of Chicago. Everybody, yeah, yeah,
(14:49):
in a in a burst of creative now yeah, and
so uh people obviously now they're getting robbed by their employer.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
There's no other way to look at it at that. Yeah,
they can plain.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
And the owner, George Fullman, super humble guy you can
tell by the name of his company, he.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Said, fire them all.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And they striked, and other workers caught on in the
railway industry, and they were led by the guy who
referenced earlier, Eugene V. Debs listened to our two parter
about Debs. I know, Max loves him, and these folks
when they're striking, they said, look, if a pullman car
comes through here, we're not going to handle it. It
(15:31):
is basically invisible. We're going to take the freight and
passenger traffic to a halt. So they stopped. Chicago, which
is a huge economic hub at the time. Tens of
thousands of people just left work. Those strikes broke out,
and then, like you said, they were fired upon, they
(15:53):
were shot by.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Were not just fired you know, by the fat cats.
They were shot at. And we know that the American
government is not incapable of this kind of thing throughout history.
I mean, you had like student protests, it can't state,
you know, being rocked by violence from the the government.
You know, people being shot for literally just expressing how
(16:15):
they feel.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
You know, yeah, and it's it's speaking of the US government.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Let's shout out as super not great president Grover Cleveland
named Mike Grover.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Well, I don't know, Grover the sesame street Monster's kind
of cool.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, Grover Cleveland doesn't always get a top ten
listing of best presidents. But he signed this bill into
a law on June twenty eighth, eighteen ninety four, and
that's when Labor Day became a national holiday. People are
still guessing whether he had an ideological or ethical thing.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
I mean, he was a politician. Did he just want
the votes to It's entirely like who knows? Who knows?
You know, who knows what's what? Evil alerks in the
hearts of men? The shadow that knows.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But yeah, he did do this thing, and it became
a national holiday. At that point looked a little different
than what it does look like today. You know, probably
was more reverential back then, you know, because it was
so close to the labor movement. You know, now it's
almost like people just kind of use it as an
excuse to barbecue and don't really think about what it means.
(17:20):
But to your point, been a lot of these holidays
that are on the fifth Thursday of the second Tuesday
of the month. Yeah, it's easy to lose track, you know.
And it's like sometimes it's good to think about history
a little bit, to remember why we even celebrate these.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Things in the first place, especially when we know it's ridiculous.
This is something that stands out to me, to you,
and to our pow Max as well. And you know,
speaking of collective action, one thing that is funny to me,
funny to you, and I think funny to Max as well,
is that labor Day seems kind of collective in its origin.
(17:56):
History may never know who actually created.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
It, Isn't that funny?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
And usually in these types of stories, we did one
on Mother's Day, Father's Day, you know, usually you kind
of know and like there's sort of like a like
usually it's parallel thinking involved, right with this one, it's
it's a little bit different. We have some records that
show that in eighteen eighty two, a guy named Peter J. Maguire,
who is the general secretary of a kind of a
(18:28):
very early you know union, the Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners,
and also a co founder of the American Federation of
Labor said that there should be quote a general holiday
for the laboring classes to honor those who and this
is such good old timing language.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Who from rude nature have delved and carved all the
grandule we behold from rude nature, rough hun crawling fall
from the slime of history.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I love the way that was written.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Also props to my I'll knowle here because you improve
the end of that.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
And it was fantastic. Yeah, I know. Thank you would
be awkward if you did a bad job. It's really
good at it.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So there's there are other issues. Other historians believe that
a guy named Matthew McGuire, machinist named Matthew McGuire, we
founded the.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Unclear.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
It's sort of like the old idea of whether it
was Robert Johnson, the guitar player who sold his soul
to the devil in the Crossroads or Bobby Johnson, the
harmonica player.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Oh stam, they both could shred, that's for sure. I'm
that both of them made deals with that old scratch.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I'm wearing the wrong suit to talk about devils today.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
No, you look great, then, she just notice it has
got really cold in here. I feel like ye, she
ever running may maybe maybe it's the subject matter.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Maybe we are so.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Recent research appears to support this idea that Matthew McGuire
was the originator of the holiday, because he proposed the
holiday in eighteen eighty two when he was the secretary
of the Central Labor Union in New York. And a
lot of this comes from.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Both secretaries, both McGuire's never in the same room together,
one which one was, who's Tyler Durton?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You tell me right?
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So if you look at the New Jersey Historical Society.
Shortly after President Cleveland signed the law creating Labor Day
as a national holiday across the United States, a paper
called the Patterson He's.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Coming on and you hear that? Yeah, I could probably
hear that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
A paper called the Patterson Morning Call published an opinion piece,
and Lil Wayne loves this, stating that the souvenir pin
should go to the alderman, Matthew McGuire of this city,
who is the undisputed author of Labor Day as a holiday.
And if you think about that, that's what six foot
seven foot is really about.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Six foot seven foot bunch, come mister Tallian antiomeyven Ina
that one.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Oh, the Wayne version of it. Oh, I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I'm sorry, but you know, but that song is also
about laboring and about like well, it's probably about slavery, right,
I mean the tally man is not the guy's boss.
It's more like his overseer, right, I think I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, No, it's a good question.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And that was a very beautifully done segue, by the.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Way, Nail well anyway, I mean, yeah, Wayne is kicking.
I'm excited to hear what he's got to offer.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
No, we should we got to to McGuire's we it
doesn't really matter who established labored it.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
What matters is that it was established and then it
was passed into law, and now we should all do
a better job at remembering what it actually stands for.
But what about the pants? What about the pants?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
About the pant? About the pants and the shoes? Serial mom? Please? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
But by the way, also speaking of Cereal Mom, John
Waters just got like a like a Hollywood star, I believe,
and just got in like they have a huge retrospective
of his work. Ceial Mom is one of his lesser
appreciated films, but it's pretty accessible. I think it's I
would argue it's more accessible than pink flamingos. And it's
basically about who is it. Who's the Kathleen Turner well done? Yeah,
(22:14):
the serial mom who is a serial killer who murders
people for being rude and having bad manners. And there's
someone who she kills brutally disembowels. I want to say,
for wearing white shoes after labor Day.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And this question of labor day and fashion may have
stemmed from practicality. According to Amber Chanical for Farmer's Almanac,
she says, before air conditioning was invented, clothing choices were
important when you wanted to keep cool in summer, keep
warmer winter.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, hence Max's delightful sheer linen pantaloons.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think he just wants people to know he's been
working out.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I know, it's sure he does.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
He's got some he's got some good gams on boys
gets some gams.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
But you're right, like, think about the southern gentleman.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
It's fine linen suit sitting on the front porch and
join them in Juli.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean feel this, We're in Vegas. I'm wearing a
linen suit, right, Yeah, but I think there are even
versions of linen that are even more sheer and thin,
and they're you know, almost like silk, but like linen
that's very popular. It's like, what do you what a
John Hammond wore in Jurassic Park. I also it is.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I also I have my televangelist suit, but I stopped
wearing it because you know, it gives me the spirits.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I hear you, But this is the thing, right, So
this was in a way like also the longer you
wore this sheer linen kind of stuff, it sort of
showed that you could take vacations later in the summer
and that you had a little more you know.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Means you had a little more ends.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
And then it became sort of a sign of decorum
because it's almost like any further than that than Labor Day,
they've decided someone arbitrarily.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
It's really just nothing to do with labor day. As well.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Have another version of the story that more does, but
this version is more about the calendar time and like
just don't show off.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Anything after that is just showing off.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And it's also a way of codifying a dress sort
of sense, you know, like fashion trend kind of like
standards you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, yeah, because Labor Day is the unofficial end of summer.
So once that arrived, historically people would start to wear warmer,
darker fabrics. Ye like blue collar shirts, right right. So
fashion it's a good weave, and so fashion, the world
of fashion decided, we're making it official, it's time to
(24:39):
retire that white clothing post Labor Day.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
And it was thought to be a sign that you
were doing a good job of getting acclimated to the club.
If you were nouveau reche and you started to adhere
to this schedule, then it was like, oh, they get it. Okay,
We're gonna let them in a little bit more, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And then to your point, there's the other story, the
idea that the rule came from the very wealthy in
the early nineteen hundreds. People wanted that lightweight, bright clothing,
the breezy dresses. It meant that you were able to
go on vacation, which a lot of people just can't do.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
That's right. I think I sort of mashed up the
two reasons how they got there, but they are connected.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I mean, the first one has just as much to
do with the rich sort of setting the tone as
the other.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Again, it's like anything beyond that point is just kind
of like showing off. And it's just a matter of
sort of like setting the tone and sort of being
like this is this. It's like seasons in fashion lines.
You know, you've got the fall season and all that stuff.
It just people love to have little weird rules that
only they know about, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And so to keep this.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Focus here, we're going to put a horse in the race, folks,
because you know, the one percent loves horse racing.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
If you don't want.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
To practice this idea of white being verboten after labor Day,
then don't pay attention to it.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Screw those certainly, you know, to to our point at
the top of the episode.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And I think what we pretty quickly found in a
cursory Google is that this is utterly kind of a
non thing. I think even in the circles that maybe
it used to be a thing in people. You know,
fashion rules are made to be broken, Trends are made
to be set by, like, you know, new people, and
it does seem to be if you have got a
pair of pants, like Max, you let those wear those
(26:30):
pants until they wear out in the crotch.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Let those ponies run, let them ride, let them ru
ride them, and let them run.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, as far as far back as the nineteen twenties,
fashion icons like Coco Chanel quote unquote revolutionized fashion and uh,
the industry of manufactured esthetics by keeping white as a
permanent staple in her wardrobe regardless.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Of the calendar. Where do you think j Lo got
the idea? Yeah? I mean I text her, but probably
someone else.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Apparently it's in a rider that every at least it
used to be in the whenever she's more popular.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I guess she's still populout it.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
But that everything, the furniture and stuff backstage had to
be white. The candles all had to be white. J
Lo loves white. But to your point about Coocheel, she
was just you know, being a what do you call that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And iconoclasts, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
But then if you do that with enough confidence, it
becomes the thing.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, And there are still plenty of people who consider
post labor day white clothing a no go.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
And that's fine.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
If you don't want to wear white after Labor Day,
then don't. But you should not consider yourself in charge
of other people's decisions if they have if they have
something they like to wear, then they can wear it
whenever they want, no matter what it looks like, no
matter the season.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
And I think we may have stopped just short of
like the kind of end of the other theory about
the white like we mentioned the idea of a blue
collar and darker clothes and how white was sort of like,
I can wear this year round because I don't have
the kind of job that will get me give my
collar all schmoz.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Because I don't what you say labor, I don't labor
that much.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Therefore that it was a way of them separating themselves
from the have nots who would have had to wear
darker clothes, think like a mechanic's onesie, you know, like
the darker like denim or whatever. But that is where
the blue collar white collar kind of divide came. And
that version of the story to me, jives pretty well
(28:30):
with the other version that it was. They're very interrelated.
I think the true the truth of it lies somewhere
in between the two.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And hopefully we have solved the mystery a bit. We
want to congratulate everybody who was hanging out, as well
as our our pal.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Matt Frederick O drinking from a coconut. Our pal Andy
Kelly drinking from a coconut.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Both drinking from coconuts. You were listening to Ridiculous History
live at the iHeart Podcast Studio powered by Bose at
the House of Music at iHeart Music Festival. We have
so many people to thank Man you Debs. Yeah, I
mean he's the modern eugenp Yeah, he really is to
the people.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And Max for the first time I think, I mean, well,
he's been away before, but he's not here. But he
is here in spirit because he compiled this this research
doc for.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Thanks to our research associate, mister Max Williams. Thanks to
our guest super producer, Paul the black Jack Emperor Decades Wheezy.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I'm sorry, I just can't ignore him. He's just out there.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Thanks thanks to Wayne who you know, Wayne, just you
can just send one DM Okay, I get it. And
thanks of course as always to the continued labor movement.
Thanks to Christophrasiotis, Eves, Jeff Coat both here in spirit, Gabe, Lucy,
Alex Williams, Alice Cooper and thanks you No, thanks to you, Ben.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
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