May 26, 2022 • 53 mins
As one of history's most well-known, highly-regarded writers, it's no secret that Shakespeare's life and work is full of strange stories -- but did you know one of his most famous plays is considered cursed? In today's episode, the guys are joined by special guest, award-winning playwright Will McFadden, as he breaks down to supposed origin of the curse, along with multiple disasters attributed to it.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always
so much fortuning in Let's give it up to the
one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. First of
his name, and uh, look they called me Ben. No,
you and I are I would say we're big, big
fans of theatre and theatricality. Do you say? Do you
(00:49):
say thespian or thespian? You know, it depends on how
I feel about the person I'm describing. I'm gonna keep
it one hundred with you. If I like them, then
I really chew the scenery on that one, you know,
So they're like them? Yes, yeah, apologies to my college
(01:11):
actor friends if you just learned something about my opinion.
But but today, no, we're so excited. This is a
long one in the making. Man. You and I are
diving into a story concerning one of, if not the
most highly regarded English playwrights of all time. That's right,
(01:31):
Old Willie shakes himself. That's a street name. You might
know him as Shakespeare for Billium. But but we're not
doing it alone, dude, We're joined with We can say
this I checked off airman with an award winning actor, director,
and playwright, a friend of the show and the creator
of his own show, story Time. It's Mr will McFadden.
(02:03):
It is an honor and a pleasure to be here, gentlemen,
thank you so much for having me. William from one
William to another. How are you? I'm doing well. Also,
just a heads up, we had to change the name
to hashtag Storytime because Seth Rogan showed up and just
you know, elbowed us right out of there. So I
gotta you know, I mainly like Seth Rogan. I like
(02:25):
his uh, his openness about being high all the time,
but I was a little peeved about him, you know,
throwing his weight around. Yeah, man, read the room, you know,
just like see if there's another one out there before
you just you just gobble up that name. And then
he didn't even like he didn't even keep the show going.
I think he did, like it was like a COVID show.
And then like sort of things opened buck up again
(02:45):
and now he's like off, you know, making movies, and
I'm trying to cultivate beef between me and Seth Rogan
just as a marketing stunt. I got your back. Yeah,
because when I saw hashtag story Time, I just thought, Wow,
these guys are way better at marketing. Then I like
they put the thought into it. And uh, full disclosure,
I've been on story Time in the past, where has
(03:08):
given the opportunity to apologize to the good people of
Germany and uh to sing the praises a fifty cent
in Guatemala. And Noel, you've been on Storytime as well, right,
I have? I have. My episode was a couple of
weeks ago, and it was a story involving my hometown
of Augusta, Georgia and one of its native sons, Mr
James Brown. No relation, but I had got a cool
(03:29):
brush with with greatness when I was younger working in
a music store. And will you were kind enough to
let both me and Ben and some of our other
favorite colleagues. Lauren Vogelbaum Annie Reese has been on the show.
Who Am I missing? Mike John's literary maverick Extraordinaire of
Atlanta g a co founder of the Right Club literary
(03:49):
event which Ben has also participated. No challenge in the squad,
as Ben would say, so, really, thank you for for
giving us a voice. I've been telling this story for
years and never thought that I would have a chance
to kind of do like a defend a diversion of it,
which I am. That's what I'm calling the episode. It was,
It was. It was an honor having both of you,
and both of your stories are so entertaining and delightful.
And the people of Germany did not accept your apology benefit.
(04:13):
They called it severely adequate, which is not the same
thing as forgiveness. But we are We have asked you
on ridiculous history today, Will, because we vibe with each
other as you as you can tell ridiculous historians, we
wanted to hang out and we started talking with you,
Will and saying like, well, what are what are some
(04:34):
things that you are interested in historically? What are some
obscure things? What are some things that might be maybe
not known to people who are not somehow in the
world of these stories? And you wasted no time, no hesitancy.
I loved it. You came right to us and you said,
(04:55):
you guys ever talked about Macbeth? Have that locked and loaded?
Was waiting for somebody to ask me, anybody talk about
the Curse of McBeth. The Scottish play anybody, nobody, Okay,
I'll do it. Uh this is this is uh fascinating
tests maybe one of the ways that we get into
this just for anyone who doesn't know, like the rough
(05:17):
high level plot, the elevator pitch of McBeth had had
Billy shakes ha to give one what would Macbeth be
described as? Can I see have been really quickly because
I've been saving this and I have to do it.
There's a well, are you familiar with the show Little Britain.
I mean, yeah, i haven't watched it in a long time,
but I've seen I've seen a few episodes. It's good.
(05:39):
It's like it's a very huge in England. You know,
they tried to do an American version of it here
there's just a sketch on it that absolutely loved. There's
this character named Dennis Waterman, who I think is based
on a real you know, some sort of like niche
British person that we would never really be familiar with.
But the joke is that he's very small and he's
always going to his agent's office trying to get jobs
and turning down every job because he insists on being
able to write the theme tune sing the theme tune
(06:03):
and star in the show. And he gets asked if
he wants to be in uh in Macbeth, and he goes,
he wants to write the theme to just say this
is the song that he comes up. He goes, Mr Macbeth,
there's a naughty man a do do do do do?
Going and killed another man? Do do do do? Do Do? Do?
I have a good idea? Just thou keeps mena I'll
(06:27):
be so good for the Scottish play. That's it, And
that's the format of every theme tune he writes, And
that's it. But that I think it was a really
lovely description. A naughty man killed another man and then
stuff happens exactly. That's all you really need to know.
The broad strokes, Yeah, there were some strokes. What what what?
(06:48):
What's what's what's next? Let's give us the rundown. Who
is the other man that he kills? And one are
the things that hath happened? Yes? Well, you know Macbeth's
all about ambition and also about destiny. Macbeth essentially wins
a huge battle at the beginning of the play, and
then he encounters three weird sisters, some witches and uh
(07:09):
they greet him and say that he has all these
new titles and he's like, whoa, what are you talking about?
And then uh, they say he's one day gonna be
king and he's like, okay, interesting, I'm gonna, you know,
put that in my back pocket, hold onto it. He
basically tells his wife this. She gets just bloodthirsty with
this idea. She loves it. She's like, great, we're gonna
kill the king when he comes to the house tonight.
(07:30):
It's gonna be awesome. Macbeth is kind of like, I
don't know, that's maybe not the best idea. He's like,
you know, there's rules when you have a guest over,
you're not supposed to murder them. Maybe we shouldn't do this.
She's like, screw your courage to the sticking place, boyo.
And they decided to go forth forward with it, and
he he murders the king and becomes the king, and uh,
there's there's more scenes with the witches proclaimed are you know,
(07:52):
prophesizing as to his downfall, but he thinks he's invincible.
Um and the only way that he can be killed
is by a man who is not a woman. Born
m m Enter McDuff who was from his mother's womb, untimely,
untimely ripped. It was born of a cesarean section that
reminds me of the whole like the twist in Lord
(08:14):
of the Rings where it's like, no, no man can
kill whatever, Like The Ring where the leader of the
Ring wraiths and then you know, he gets killed and
he takes off the helmet. It's a woman. Yeah, yeah,
that's kind of the same kind of that's the same
kind of twist. I think that Tolkien probably stole a
(08:34):
little bit. Yeah, absolutely, profly, you know, loosely. Sorry, I'm sorry.
My girlfriend hates that when I say like that, this
shows me a band and my that is such a
rip off of this other thing. I seem to soften
my language, am I? What a lovely homage to this
other tributes? Right? Uh do you guys hear I made
(08:55):
up a new word. It's plagiarism. I'm kidding. I didn't
even write that joke anyway. So thanks well staff, thanks refunds. Yeah,
so it's a free podcast for the Yeah. So we
had a we had an interesting conversation about this offline.
(09:16):
This is a canonical play. It's a huge deal. A
lot of people have maybe acted in excerpts of this.
This player done an entire production years back in a
different life, I was cast in Macbeth. I I didn't
get to play McBeth. I wasn't a big big deal.
But it wasn't until I was able to be in
that production that I personally learned of the subject of
(09:38):
today's episode, which is this the Scottish play reputedly is cursed.
Why you're supposed to call it the Scottish play exactly,
and you know the name of the thing or the
Scottish business. I've also heard, Yeah, there's there's lots of variants,
but that is specifically the world, okay, al, because I
(10:00):
don't believe any of us are actually physically sitting in
a theater. I mean we are participating in a theater
of the mind. But that's different um physical the the
the hallowed grounds, the boards that that that that have
hath been tread uh, the theater that is specifically this
refers to as saying that name inside the theater. And
we're gonna get this amazing examples of this curse kind
(10:23):
of coming to fruition. Um. Whether or not you believe
in curses or not, it's hard to deny that there's
some spooky coincidences. But what is the history of the curse?
Why is Macbeth cursed the play itself? For those of
(10:44):
you who may not be Thesbians or Thespians, you may
not even be aware that there is this superstition and
and this taboo of saying that word inside of a theater.
But if you are around anybody with a B F A,
they will instantly jump down your throat if you say
that during because it's it's purportedly to bring very bad luck,
even if you're not performing that play. If you just
(11:06):
inside a theater, if you say Macbeth, it's horrible luck.
And then there's a bunch of crazy rituals to kind
of cleanse yourself if you do happen to Yeah, walking
witter Shans or whatever, what like was something like that. Yeah,
the theater company that I was a part of, you
had to go outside, spin in a circle, spit and
yell a curse word and then knock and ask permission
(11:28):
to be let back in the theater. A bunch of hullabaloo. Yeah,
your accuracy is everywhere, you know. But but there's there's
a process and you're absolutely right. I think everybody, even
people in the theatrical community consider themselves quite skeptical, will
still participate in this and treat it as though it
(11:49):
is a taboo, because it's kind of like, you know,
at some points, a cost benefit thing. If it's not real,
and then it doesn't matter what you do. But if it's,
if it is real, it's not very difficult to just
not say the M word right right, right. From what
I understand, this is a very very old thing. This
(12:11):
didn't just happen during like the Satanic panic in the
US of the How old is the belief in this curse?
I don't know why it is to almost say, coois,
we're not the three students, but it foiled again. It
apparently goes back to the first the very first production,
(12:32):
and it's carried throughout the centuries. Productions of the play
have been plagued with bad luck, deaths, sicknesses, and just
all sorts of crazy things happening, which makes you beg,
you know, begs the question of is there an actual
curse or are actors just clumsy and uncoordinated. It's you know,
(12:55):
up for debate. But the very first production of the play.
It was rumored that Shakespeare used real, not only incantations
from from witches, but also ingredients commonly used in their cauldrons.
Was one, Yeah, thumb of a sailor I think was
(13:17):
another one. How come that one didn't make the hit list?
You know what I mean? When we say I have
newed all the time, No one remembers some of the sailor. Yeah,
it's a good one. They're harder to come by. I
think it's true. It's hard, just like a pain blood bat,
I believe. But so what what was? What was? You know?
(13:39):
What was believed was that because he used this real
these real incantations and real ingredients, that the witches of
the time were piste off at his cultural appropriation, and
they placed a curse on the production. That's that's the
going story. And then very first performance actually was cursed
(14:03):
and the actor who was playing the young man male
actor playing Lady Macbeth came down with a fever and
died days before opening. And apparently Shakespeare himself was rumored
to have to have gone on in his stead, which
was common. Right. It was yeah, men playing women's roles, right,
that was the That was the usual. That was the norm.
(14:26):
It was the it was the Norman. Also, Shakespeare, probably
for being honest, was the person who had the next
best grasp of the lines. So at that point it's
just like a production decision, you know, and we know
there's something else that will I think, uh informed the
(14:48):
context here, which is the reign of King James the
First and King James the First, massive theater guy, massive
theater buff loved pay, patronizing the theater and being a
patron thereof, so he was like Shakespeare's number one most
important audience member, which is also why the King James
(15:10):
version of the Bible sounds like Shakespeare right kind of?
Was this the same? This is the King James that
did the Bible printings, right, I believe. So I'm telling you,
I mean that the way the King James version of
the Bible was translated it reads like Shakespearean pros in
a lot of ways. So I mean, I'm not saying
it was directly. It had to have been like the
style of the time, and it was probably largely because
(15:32):
of his uh, his fondness for the for the bard. Well,
Shakespeare been around. He was forty six years old in sixteen,
when people are finalizing the translations, so it can you
imagine uh, just knowing that the king is coming to
see your your play, like why you're writing it, and
being like, I'm pretty sure, pretty sure the King is
(15:53):
gonna come, so I'm gonna make sure he's into this thing.
So what's the king into demonology? I guess let's throw
ow some witches in here. Maybe he'd be into that.
He really he's playing to his audience. You know, he's
like writing this play just to please the King, like
you know, I don't know, if imagine if I don't know,
Joe Biden was listening to every episode of Particulous History,
like Scamps Somewhere. Let's less less to be screaming at
(16:19):
your podcast implements too loudly. I think my timing is
a little off, but it is something that people have
observed that the King, James, Bible and Shakespeare have a
similar tone. But the timing, to your point, bent isn't
quite right. But clearly what Shakespeare did he didn't do
in a vacuum. I mean, he didn't completely invent this,
this type of speaking, this type of prose, It was,
(16:40):
it was out there. He was just really good at
it and got really famous for it. Well, yeah, I
think it's the timeline is in support of that supposition,
because if Shakespeare's forty six in six, then that means
he's actively been writing, producing, in staging plays, so people
are going to be aware of his language. So that's
why I could see it definitely informing it because the
(17:02):
people doing the translation for the King are just like
Shakespeare in a way. They're saying, Okay, we've got one
very important reader. We got a v. I. P. Reader,
and we know what he likes. So let's just nobody lie.
You just kind of embellish, Okay, just kinda read the room.
And to jump in here real quick, I mean, what
(17:24):
is the sixteen o six? The King James Bibles are
in sixteen eleven, so I mean we're talking five years
difference right there. Now, there's definitely some some alignment, but
I don't want to go out on a limb and
say that it was definitely like one to one. But again,
I think that that type of speech, that type of
writing of of of theater was not something that Shakespeare
like invented out of whole cloth. He was just probably
(17:45):
the one that we think of the most. So there's
a lot of when you google this, like a lot
of people make this comparison and ask this question. But
he was a very important patron of Shakespeare, and apparently
he did not like the show. Not a of the
play could have been the whole murdering the king part
(18:05):
that clearly wasn't him. Though this is clearly a Scottish king,
you know, I mean it's and there's witchcraft at work,
you know, I mean I would have taken it as
like a compliment. It's like, well, only the malevolent forces
of Satan himself could bring me down. You know. There's
another part here too. You can find some I think
(18:27):
kind of in the weeds, but fascinating inaccuracies in Macbeth
that are I'm not gonna say percent proven, but like
it really seems as those Shakespeare himself kind of airbrush
some stuff, took some creative license with some characters, especially
if Jean James the First was considered a descendant of
(18:50):
the characters. This is not like the modern days where
you can say, okay, Joe Biden didn't like our podcast,
and so dang, he went on stage and mentioned it
in a mean way and kind of a rambling non
glued addressed to the nation. That would be great for
our numbers. Actually, back then, if the king didn't like
(19:13):
your play, he could arrest you. He could just have
you killed. You know what I mean? So big steaks.
What happens? You said, James doesn't like the play. Jimmy
is not happy, not pleased. And apparently because of that,
the show was not performed again for many, many, many
many years. And it's hard to exactly pinpoint when the
next performance was, but uh there there's some sites that
(19:38):
say that the next time it was performed was actually
not in England, but was performed in Amsterdam and in
sixteen seventy two, and that production also had some mishaps,
some some problems where apparently the actor who was playing
Macbeth was having an affair with the wife of the
(19:59):
actor playing Duncan and then chose to actually bring a
real dagger on stage and murder Duncan for real? What
during the during the performance? Dude, this is so funny. Um,
there's an episode of l A Law or maybe not
l A law leybe Law and Order. Um. Are you
(20:20):
familiar with the long running New York interactive play, Um,
Sleep No More? Yes? Yes, it's fabulous and it is loosely,
you know, tied to Macbeth. The the actual action that
takes place when you're in this, I would only just
I could only maybe describe it as like a an
interactive psychedelic consumers theater. Very one of the coolest things
(20:40):
I've ever experienced in my life. But there is an episode.
So yeah, so you you're walking around, You've got these
masks on, You're in the same space as the players,
and it's a three D space. You're walking upstairs and
you kind of chase whoever it's interested you do. You
kind of follow them around and get distracted and sort
of like being on a video game or something. It's
it's fabulous, but it does end in like the banquet
scene from McBeth. Isn't that in Macbeth? Yeah, there's a
(21:03):
banquet scene with like there's also some king Lear elements.
Point is there's an episode of Law and Order. This
play has been running that long, this this immersive thing,
probably since the nineties, where it's a thing like that,
but it's not exactly that. But the twist is that
someone actually kills the person for real in it, and
then you know the sam Waterson and his just crew
(21:24):
have to solve the crime. I just thought that was
funny connection. But yeah, what an interesting like He's been
used as a trope in other you know, pop cultural
kind of things. It was actually a thing in uh
Station eleven, which had to play within a play. But
the idea of killing someone for real, uh, in a
play where no one's expecting that to happen, and the
props can look a lot like real weapons, you know, Yeah,
(21:47):
it's not the best way to go about murdering someone.
I feel like, maybe do it after the show when
there's not an audience full of people, you know, yeah,
and then like where you're understudies at again, it's production
question to ethics society. But the situation this is weird
to me because there's already uh, we're seeing a work
(22:12):
of historical fiction is what we call it today, but
we're seed interact with real world consequences and there's a
lot you can read into it if you are someone
in the sixteen hundreds watching this and you see like
I had to play, God, what's the guy's named banquet
or some banquet I had to play and uh, they
(22:35):
have lines where it's like and often times to win
us to a haam. The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
win us with honest trifles to portray and deepest consequence. Basically,
they're saying a good way to lie to people is
to kind of tell them the truth. You know, centuries
later Emily Dickinson will say, tell the truth, but tell
(22:55):
its slant and and things like that. So I can
see audience members all ready very sensitive to this play
between fiction and fact and the I bring this up
because imagining seeing someone actually get fatally stabbed in front
of like, you would wonder whether it was on purpose.
(23:17):
You might even I would not be surprised if several
people in the in the theater, several like maybe folks
who weren't quite groundling level, weren't too close to this stage.
I'd be surprised if at least a few of them
didn't turn to each other and say, man, that guy
can act. That is commitment. You know. Special effects in
this production are yes, I love it, And this is
(23:42):
just one strange and disturbing incident. Right like you said,
this is kind of dogged. The Scottish business my new
favorite phrase now, the Scottish business. For a while Yeah,
that that's that was the next horrible, you know, tragedy
that that befell a production. You would think at some
(24:03):
point theater companies would be like, We're not doing this
play anymore. People keep dying, but they keep going. So
I think the next time that it was performed in
possibly in London, was it was a company called the
Dukes the Duke's Men. You gotta hit that liquid you
and you say, do you know, Duke, Duke pukes, Duke
(24:25):
doesn't puke. That's what they say. I prefer to even
just like go all the way and just combine and
call it the Dukesman, the Dukes and the Dukesman. So
they were a company. They were licensed by Charles the
Second to perform Macbeth at the time, and they were
they were this is early sixteen seventies, came to the
big duel of Macbeth McDuff and there was an accident
(24:45):
where the actor named Henry Harris accidentally ran his sword
through the eye of the actor playing Macbeth, killing him.
Which can you imagine being in the audience? Yeah, no,
being the guy, you know, either one of them, I
would feel terrible again, whether I've been run through the
(25:09):
eye or a run through someone someone's eye by accident.
A really quick housekeeping questions, you say, licensed by Charles.
The second was the king at this point just the
keeper of all intellectual property, Like you had to get
licensed or leave from the king to perform a play. Yeah,
I'm imagining, you know, like King's men going around being like, oh, yeah,
like this is an unlicensed Shakespeare show. You know nothing
(25:34):
to see it. I can see that. Yeah, this I
I agree with you. Guys, like the idea. Okay, you
can see someone appear to be stabbed in the torso
on stage, and it can look very believable. Right, so
even then you could say, hey, maybe that's a proper whatever.
But eyeballs are a lot harder to pull off realistically,
(25:56):
even in the modern days. So this was clearly a
fatal accident. And you know, I have to ask do
you think, and even if we're just speculating here, it's
a good question. Do you think this mccab series of
accidents and homicides would have made the play less popular
(26:17):
for the public or would it have been more compelling,
like would it have put more butts in seats? The
idea that it was dangerous m hm, so so it's
a big marketing scheme. I mean maybe they they cursed
the play themselves, you know, no, I have to say.
(26:39):
I mean I have always found this to be one
of the more interesting and grabby Shakespeare plays. I like
witchy stuff. I think we all do. I like Murder,
most foul all that. I I think the Lady Macbeth
character is interesting. I like madness, you know. Um. I
think that's why it's sort of persevered, and it's also
been a apted. I think so many good bit more
(27:03):
for for screen than than in any other Shakespeare play
that I can think of, not to mention, like the
Very lab like the Sleep no more things, but running
from ages and various adaptations of it, because how you
portray the witches is always interesting. Like I don't know
if you guys have seen the uh the New um
Cohen uh Shakespeare. But the woman who plays the Witches,
(27:24):
Catherine Hunter, freaking fantastic, like contorting her body and literally
playing like all three and like are they in her head?
Are there three of them? You don't even know? Sometimes
they're just a reflection and it's just so cool. It's
very like bergman esque. The whole production of that film,
so I don't know. I mean, it's so tight as Andronicus,
(27:44):
but it's laps. I love the love of the film adaptation.
I love the film adaptation of that by Julie Taymore.
It was, like, I think one of her only films.
She did a really kind of by my understanding, pretty
bad Beatles movie called Across the Universe. She's also famous
for like completely running that Spiderman musical into the ground,
(28:05):
turn Off the Dark. That was her uh And also
she's famous in a positive way for The Lion King.
She did all the production design for that. But Titus
is a really cool Shakespeare adaptation as where there's there's
something about Titus where it's like every on average, like
every seven lines, either a limb is hacked off or
somebody who dies the bloodiest of bloody plays see and
(28:27):
they say the guy doesn't have range. I'm kidding. People
don't say that about Yeah, I guess no. No. I
think that those are both interesting points because I think
maybe that's why Macbeth occupies this like a middle ground
between his like lighter work and more depressing work and
stuff like Ties is just too much because it's got
all of the chops of Titus. Literally, maybe not, it's
(28:49):
quite as many chops, but it's got like a lot
of the same drama and grotesqueness, but it's a little
more palatable. Yeah, I mean, I think shakespeare Titus was,
if I recall correct Lee, Shakespeare's first tragedy, tragedy historic
historians agree, yet like fifteen eighties something and like the
late fifteen eighties. So so by the time he gets
(29:12):
to make Beth, he's got he's he's learned a little
bit more more about the art of of subtlety, and
he's like, hey, maybe maybe you can earn a death
or dismemberment as a slow Burton, right, right, maybe we
don't cook the children into a pie and feed it
to their mother. Sorry, it's okay. Yeah, I think I
(29:35):
think we've passed the statute of limitations from spoilers on
that one. Yeah, so people still keep making Make Beth,
and uh, I think we're going to get to an
interesting question about just how cursed it may be. But
to do that, we should probably walk through a few
more incidents. Because it wasn't always actors stabbing each other,
(29:56):
whether out of anger or whether out of acces it right, right,
There was one in three where a category to hurricane
struck England and caused a ton of damage, millions of
(30:19):
pounds worth of damage and killed seaman right as the
play was opening. So that was one from the gods
that is three thumbs, just to point out they got
to go collect those. Yeah. So, so natural forces are
conspiring against people saying the M word on and then
(30:44):
what what about when the play goes He's already gone
international in Europe, but what about when it crosses the pond?
Because we know that the US since its inception, also
loved Shakespeare. Pretty much everybody agreed this guy was thought
of is the best author in the language of all time.
He's the goat. That's right. Well, the famous Aster Place Rights,
(31:08):
which I feel like I could have its own episode
because we did it didn't. Yeah, so let's go back
to the Aster Place Riots episode and actually but that
uh yeah, so that was two warring actors of the
great Edwin Forest and uh and then Charles McCready, which
I always think the other one is the British one
(31:30):
because Edwin Forest sounds like such a British name and
Charles McCready sounds like a real American name. But it's
the opposite, Mr McCready. What's that from? Mr mccrey, I
know what it is. I think it's Is it from
Dark City? Is there a character named Mr McCready? I
think The Dark City such a good movie, such a
good movie. But please, Yeah, this one, uh, this one
(31:52):
really escalates quickly and then it gets unnecessarily violent, you know,
for like a riot springing from a public performance of
a freaking play. Yeah, it wasn't really so much about
the play and at the Astro place, right, it was
just they so happened to be both performing Macbeth. But
it was more about just like using this event as
(32:13):
an excuse to start a riot. I feel like, yeah,
and again that that episode walks through some of the
context there, But there is a real death toll. People
are dead, many more wounded, many more have some sort
of injury. It's it's not what you associate with a
(32:33):
night at the theater unless you will about the Curse
of Macbeth. Did you talk at all about the supposed
hissing that they were doing to each other back and forth? McCready,
I think so. Yeah, there was definitely some real venom there.
They were going back. They were going to each other's productions,
and then when one of them would pause, the other
would be like, so great. But yeah, there was a
(33:01):
riot that ensued and and police were dispersed ended up
firing into a crowd and I believe around you know,
two dozen people or so, we're killed, insane and saying
and now we're getting to like modern history. Even so,
so it's weird when we talk about McCready and Forest
because they are not immortalized on film, right, so unless
(33:27):
you saw their performances in real time, you would be
reading reviews. So they maybe don't have the same stay
in power for a lot of people that actors do
once photography and once film go mainstream. And that's where
we see that the curse of Macbeth continues to actors
that you may know of today, folks, you may have
(33:49):
seen their work. I mean, I would say, Sir Lawrence
Olivier maybe the most famous Shakespearean actor of all time.
And and Olivier did a performance or production at the
Old vic In seven and he was preparing to play
Macbeth for the first time. And uh, the director and
(34:11):
I think the woman who was playing Lady mc duff
were in a car accident on the way to the theater.
Two days later, the dog belonging to the Old Vics
founder was run over by a car. So even dogs
aren't safe from this purse, even the theater pets. And
then Olivia was apparently so distraught by all of this
that he lost his voice and couldn't speak, and that
(34:34):
had that caused the opening to be postponed, and then uh,
three days after the show was opening, the director was replaced.
There was just just wrought with with horrible things. A
twenty five pounds stage weight apparently crashed down from the flies,
barely missing Sir Lawrence Olivier's head by inches. That's the stuff,
(34:57):
that's the stuff of theater chaos right there, you know.
And bags Willie Nilis Phantom of the Opera type stuff
right there, my friends. And then also uh, the woman
who was playing I believe Lady Macbeth died of a
heart attack just before dress rehearsal. And then the next
time the Old vic produced that show, the portrait of
of the the actress whose last name is Bayliss that
(35:18):
was hung in the theater. It fell from the wall
on opening night. Geez. And so in the in the
realm of the folklore we're exploring. Then the logic of
this curse would be that these disasters don't occur for
every production of the Scottish business. They occur when someone
anyone in the theater, whether actor, Crewe or civilian, says
(35:43):
Macbeth in the room, right in the building. It's apparently
it's okay to say it if you're performing the piece,
if you're doing that, because obviously you have to say
it a number of times, and if every time you
said it you had to go outside it spin around,
spit becaus and knock on the door and has for
permission really slowed down on the rehearsal process. But I
think the performance of the play in general is you're
(36:06):
you're undertaking your you know, your undergoing a cursed project,
a cursed script. So the accompanying superstition is, yeah, is
remnants from all of these productions throughout history that have
led to deaths and and accidents and horror. That's what
I was going to ask, Like, it doesn't necessarily mean
(36:28):
it's only triggered by someone saying it out loud, And
I guess what what if? What if it's in the
in so it's it's in the course of doing the play,
you're gonna say the name um. So it's basically the
whole implication is that the play itself is cursed, should
never be performed. In his name, should not be spoken
and in the hallowed halls of of the theater. Has
there ever been an adaptation where they just say the
(36:49):
M word every time they're gonna say Macbeth, like they
literally just say the M word. I would watch it.
We should do that one the first non curse production
of But when they get confusing is you got McDuff,
you got Lady Macbeth as well, So they have to
have different distinctions for each of those. Could just be
a different sound effects, you know McBeth is like and
(37:13):
like McDuff is like. That was too confusing. It should
be different, more different than that, maybe like a that's
too long? What we can workshop this? I like the idea, though, yeah,
I like if we didn't in word, I don't want
to overcomplicate this. But then for like, let's go with
your idea for for notable sound effects, you know, like
an ear is great, and then maybe I just want
(37:38):
to hear people say yeaws instead of a name or
a Wilhelm scream, you know, for Lady Macbeth. That could
be cool. Yeah, my my lord, one I would go
to that. I would go to that. And the question
would be, is would if they did it and did
it consistently, how long would it take for it to
(37:58):
not be funny anymore and for you just to be
like invested back in the drama of the play. I
can tell you from instantly or never, Yeah, I can
tell you from experience. It's a it's a two hour,
twentysomething minute production with a fifteen minute information intermission. So
maybe the best way to do it would be to
slowly beat me here, Max, slowly escalates until at the
(38:24):
end it's it's absurdest, you know what I mean. And
you're just noticing people by the way that they're dressed
in the sound effect like it's cacophonous, you know. I
would love that the sound design would need to evolve.
I am with you, like we will evolve with the
rising action of the play. I like this idea. Let's
do it the first ridiculous History theater production of Mick
(38:48):
w Yeah. Well, oh yeah, Max, that's you also have
to you also have to play one of the characters,
so clear, clear the schedule. You do this to me.
I love this spinoff idea of a ridiculous theater. Yea, yes,
well my stories out there in the in the theater.
(39:08):
And and the last last thing, there could be a
McDonald's tie in and one of the characters could just
be like there could be chicken. That could be you know, McCafe,
it could be Yeah, I see, guess we've talked about
this before, but like you know, we can finally explore,
like what happened to Ronald McDonald's. Yes, I've got the guy.
I did the research. I've got this one for next
(39:30):
a future episode. I want to try something that will
do you know what grimaces? Yeah, of course, like like
what what what species? Yeah? What is he? An anthropomorphic
version of oh um? I don't know how hippo came
to mind for some reason that I would have said.
I would have said yu vila perhaps, or um, you know,
(39:53):
some like a misshapen grape. But color. I thought he
was a sauce blob. There you go, because a nice
purple he's purple as hell. Max more mind, Yeah, he
is a taste bud. Get the sound cute and andish
(40:16):
just for you right now. It's gross. It's just gross.
They had so many other things they went past before
they got the sound. But I mean taste. But they
could have said, like so someone pitched tongue and someone
else said, nana, it's too much, too general, too sensual,
(40:40):
more specific. They probably called him taste buddy at first.
That's right there. What he's also huge, he's the biggest
of all of them. He's massive. Well, I think that
we are helping McDonald's here. We're presenting some clear business opportunities.
The M word is going to be a hit. Look
(41:00):
for it at a theater near you. But give us
some time, give us some time in the writer's room.
Before we wrap up, though, I gotta get to the
present day. I mean, there's some really good ones leading
up to a massive pop cultural phenomenon that happened not
three months ago. That's right, that was the reason why
I was on my mind. But just to fly through
some of the more recent ones. I love the one
(41:22):
about Charlton Heston who his his tights were soaked in
kerosene and his tights caught on fire during the performance,
and like he had burns all over his groins and legs,
which is tomorrow at tomorrow route what he has a
good point, oddcasting choice, like talk about a scenery each
(41:45):
youur and a very specific delivery, you know. And then
we also had Alec Baldwin in a production in who
he sliced open the hand of the actor playing McDuff
and shooting the face. I was gonna say, it's a
sad uh, you know, it's it's that we're seeing from
(42:06):
Alec babo. I don't mean to make light it is
a terrible thing, but it's like, yeah, I made a
joke about sailor thumbs. I mean, what's the statute of limitations?
There's also there's also uh, this is this was interesting.
I don't know a lot about modern celebrities because it
different philosophical, ideological reasons. But I was really interested that
(42:28):
you pointed out and some of the research will that
this came up during the what was the Academy Awards,
That's right. I I was watching the Oscars, which was
going fine and just a normal Oscars, and then you know,
something happened. And what I noticed was that Chris Rock
(42:50):
was on stage and he said, quote Denzel macbeth loved it,
and then right after he said that, I was like, oh,
I shouldn't have said that. You should have said that
you're in a theater, Chris, that's mad. Luck shouldn't have
said that. Went a little nuts too, while all the
Theato nerds took to Twitter and we're like oh. And
then moments later Will Smith was possessed by the ghost
(43:12):
of a witch and slapped Chris Rock in the face
m hm, unprecedented. And then later one one one quite
prestigious award. I don't know if you want to say
prestigious or prestigious. I just feel like prestigious sounds fancier, unnecessary,
Like it's like the it's like the thespian thespian question geeks,
(43:34):
when you're talking about the mayonnaise. It's definitely dukes. Dukes,
English Royalty, gentry, Landed gentry are dukes. Yeah, if anybody
was like, would you like some dukes on your sandwich?
Or ham sandwich with some dukes? Like a spy, a spy,
(43:57):
I've found him, who are you working for? So there
was another one, and and I think it's I think
it's a neat book, and that this is the one
we're wrapping up with because as you, as you foreshadowed
just a second ago, Will, there is a reason, very specific,
recent reason that Macbeth was on your mind. So perhaps
we were incorrect when we thought this guy's just had
(44:19):
this locked and loaded for years. You know what brought
this story to the forefront of your mind when we
asked about cool stories from history. I mean it was
it was mainly the Chris Rock situation that it was
still rattling around in my head. But then also Daniel
Craig is doing a production on Broadway, and I mean,
(44:40):
I feel like this is going to be more common
and not just productions of Macbeth. But they had to
cancel some preview performances because multiple people tested positive for
COVID nineteen, which is the new curse of of theater
and live events. Glad we had a golden little moment
where everything felt kind of normal again, and now it's
like everyone's again that all over again. We just fietfully.
(45:03):
It seems like the cases are mild, office party are
good bye office party because of because of COVID. It's
it's hitting everybody equally. Um obviously because of Macbeth, and
obviously because someone said Macbeth in the studio years ago.
I blamed Jonathan Strickland ak the quister, But we do
want to unless we do a disservice with the very
(45:24):
skeptical people in the crowd, we do have to point
out methodology here. There have been many many productions of
the Scottish business over the centuries, and you're not near
as likely to hear about the ones where things went
off without a hitch. Will and Nolan, Max and I
are well aware of this. But it's happened often enough
(45:46):
that people really do believe this superstition. They really do
believe that just maybe that that curse from like the
sixteen hundreds still around today. Right. I got one question, Ben,
the production that you were in, did anything wonky happen
or did anybody get hurt emotionally? Oh? Yeah, blood bath?
But uh that's a great question, Will, So we had
(46:09):
we did have a couple of people who dropped out.
We had one person who could no longer be in
the production because they got arrested, unrelated I think to
the play. But if for people who really believe in
this um, this curse or this superstition, then maybe that
would be something they could point to. I'll just tell
(46:31):
you it's uh, it's still. I have massive respect for
Shakespearean actors. I wouldn't consider myself one of those. Uh.
I have massive respect for anybody involved with with staging
a production of Shakespeare, because those things are intense, they
are long, and you really have to work to make
sure that it's it's relatable, you know what I mean. Yeah,
(46:54):
I I've never done a production of Macbeth. I would
love to, hopefully it goes well. I have been injured
once though, during a Shakespeare play. It was a Midsummer
Night's dream and I was stabbed in the throat, which
it was the back of my throat was punctured with
a fake flower that had a point like a metal
(47:15):
piece for twisties. For doing the twisties. Thanks, thanks, But
it was literally in the middle of the first fairy
Puck scene and I always put this flower in my mouth,
and for some reason, one of the buds had fallen off,
and the wire stabbed me and punctured the back of
my throat, and I had to continue doing the play,
and I had a mouthful of blood and I was
(47:35):
holy cow. A mouthful of blood is the name of
something that's a song punk band. It doesn't know. I
think it exists. It does exist. You're right, you're right.
It's like smiling through a mouthful of blood or laughing
with a mouth I can't remember it some god things.
But I have a theory, not a theory. It's just
a theory that refers back to the version of Macbeth
that I have the most fond memories of, which is
(47:56):
the sleep no More thing I talked about. There's no
dialogue in this version of McBeth at all. Uh, it's
just pantomimeed and like you know act, you know, dance
and stuff, and um, it's all you know the action.
You're aware of it from being familiar with the play.
But they don't speak, so no wonder. It has such
a long and illustrious run and they shut it down,
um for COVID, But it is back. The company is
(48:18):
called Punch Drunk. I think that does it, and they
use some other kind of immersive theater things, and I
just can't speak highly enough of it. If you're in
New York and it's a little pricey but absolutely worth
your time, it's like the coolest, most arts haunted house
that you'll ever set foot in. It's for four and
a half hour experience in the time just zips by.
It's well worth it. Yeah, I I have a I
(48:39):
have a question for you. Will This is just is
probably gonna be on the mind of a lot of
our fellow listeners today. Does the make Beth curse apply
specifically to the to the show Macbeth or is it
just for bolting to say the M word for any
product like have p will die during west Side Story
(49:02):
because someone with an ax to grind ran in it
was like and then ran back right. So I think
if yeah, if you get more granular with it, I'm
sure every fress been out there has some story to
share about somebody saying it in a theater and then
something going horribly awry. Um, so yeah, it's it's uh.
(49:25):
It does echo out and it reverberates out into any
production anything happening in a theater. If you are to
utter the name of that play, that character and not
cleanse yourself, you are opening yourselves up to the curse.
Or actors are just clumsy and uncoordinated. Yes, yes, And
(49:46):
which which remains the truest of the of the two possibilities?
We leave that to you. I think I don't know
about you guys, but I've gotta go run outside real quick.
It's been around three times. Curse loudly and spitted some
stuff just to make sure the weekend goes as planned.
In the meantime, what an amazing story, will And thank
(50:09):
you so much for coming on the show today. Could
you tell us a little bit more about where people
can find your work and uh, maybe a little bit
about what we meant when we said award winning play. Right, Yeah, Well,
thank you so much for having me. It's been it's
been a pleasure. Um. But yeah, you can listen to
(50:30):
my podcast hashtag Storytime wherever you get your podcasts, and
definitely check out this season because, as we mentioned at
the top, Bends on it, Nol's on it, any Reese,
Lauren Foke, Obam, Mike John's a lot of great stories
on there. And then I, Yeah, I'm a huge theater
lover and I live in l A. And I'm I'm
always trying to involve myself in in different productions out here,
whether they want me or not. But I recently, uh
(50:53):
recently participated in a short play festival called the brisk Festival,
and uh I wrote and to a short play called
The Mating Ritual of Snails and it one the best
play and I won Best Director or something that's awesome.
Is it just a bunch of snails just kind of
grinding against each other in slow motion like in Microcosmos?
More and more or less, it's two It's about two
(51:15):
snails meeting and going through their very interesting, unique mating process.
Do you know what I'm referring to? The film Microcosmos
like a French nature documentary thing. It's the same people
that did Wing Migration, So it was like a very
early kind of high art kind of nature documentary. And
there's one sequence where it's just these two snails just
(51:37):
grinding their torsos against each other. It looks like a
thing that you can probably picture, uh, and the opera,
gorgeous opera aria playing in the background. And it's the
most hilarious and erotic thing that I've ever seen. And
it's a kids movie. You've probably seen the cover of it.
They didn't market it very well. Back when blockbushes a thing,
it's like a grasshopper wearing sunglasses on the cover and
(51:59):
it's called microcos So it's actually a artsy kind of
French um super what's the word. Yeah, micro kind of
like nature documentary about bugs and snails and things. I'm
gonna get into that this weekend. But yeah, I mean
snails they do they make love for twelve hours? Yeah,
I mean that's where Sting picked it up. I heard
(52:19):
Sting of the animal format but hilarious and ironic. I
had a few exes. You're described me that way? Uh
what better way? In thanks? Yeah? Well, thank you so much.
Do check out story Time, not just the episodes dull
and iron though, uh thill. We hope you enjoy those
as well. Of course, thanks as always to our own
(52:42):
kind of our our own. Kenneth brought up the one
and only Mr Max Williams. Max, Thanks for classic up
the show. Quick kiss to the sky from Max. Thanks
also to Alex Williams who composed this amazing soundtrack playing
this out NOL. Thank you to you. I once again,
I haven't said this on air, and I'm still trying
to convince you to take an improv class with me.
(53:03):
I think we would have so much. Oh dude. After
this next COVID wave, I was super down. It's something
that always terrified me in a previous life, but now
I'm like, you know what, why not? You only live
once unless you flat through the eye during improv. That
could happen. Someone could point wildly, you know, and actually
go too far and just jam you right in the
(53:23):
eyeball or the throat. Lots of dangerous things can happen
in the theater. But you know what, it's all for
love of of the craft. He'll fly up for the
improv class. Hey, alright, let's do it. It's settled. We'll
see you next time, Foix. For more podcasts for my
(53:46):
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always
so much fortuning in Let's give it up to the
one and only super producer, Mr Max Williams. First of
his name, and uh, look they called me Ben. No,
you and I are I would say we're big, big
fans of theatre and theatricality. Do you say? Do you
(00:49):
say thespian or thespian? You know, it depends on how
I feel about the person I'm describing. I'm gonna keep
it one hundred with you. If I like them, then
I really chew the scenery on that one, you know,
So they're like them? Yes, yeah, apologies to my college
(01:11):
actor friends if you just learned something about my opinion.
But but today, no, we're so excited. This is a
long one in the making. Man. You and I are
diving into a story concerning one of, if not the
most highly regarded English playwrights of all time. That's right,
(01:31):
Old Willie shakes himself. That's a street name. You might
know him as Shakespeare for Billium. But but we're not
doing it alone, dude, We're joined with We can say
this I checked off airman with an award winning actor, director,
and playwright, a friend of the show and the creator
of his own show, story Time. It's Mr will McFadden.
(02:03):
It is an honor and a pleasure to be here, gentlemen,
thank you so much for having me. William from one
William to another. How are you? I'm doing well. Also,
just a heads up, we had to change the name
to hashtag Storytime because Seth Rogan showed up and just
you know, elbowed us right out of there. So I
gotta you know, I mainly like Seth Rogan. I like
(02:25):
his uh, his openness about being high all the time,
but I was a little peeved about him, you know,
throwing his weight around. Yeah, man, read the room, you know,
just like see if there's another one out there before
you just you just gobble up that name. And then
he didn't even like he didn't even keep the show going.
I think he did, like it was like a COVID show.
And then like sort of things opened buck up again
(02:45):
and now he's like off, you know, making movies, and
I'm trying to cultivate beef between me and Seth Rogan
just as a marketing stunt. I got your back. Yeah,
because when I saw hashtag story Time, I just thought, Wow,
these guys are way better at marketing. Then I like
they put the thought into it. And uh, full disclosure,
I've been on story Time in the past, where has
(03:08):
given the opportunity to apologize to the good people of
Germany and uh to sing the praises a fifty cent
in Guatemala. And Noel, you've been on Storytime as well, right,
I have? I have. My episode was a couple of
weeks ago, and it was a story involving my hometown
of Augusta, Georgia and one of its native sons, Mr
James Brown. No relation, but I had got a cool
(03:29):
brush with with greatness when I was younger working in
a music store. And will you were kind enough to
let both me and Ben and some of our other
favorite colleagues. Lauren Vogelbaum Annie Reese has been on the show.
Who Am I missing? Mike John's literary maverick Extraordinaire of
Atlanta g a co founder of the Right Club literary
(03:49):
event which Ben has also participated. No challenge in the squad,
as Ben would say, so, really, thank you for for
giving us a voice. I've been telling this story for
years and never thought that I would have a chance
to kind of do like a defend a diversion of it,
which I am. That's what I'm calling the episode. It was,
It was. It was an honor having both of you,
and both of your stories are so entertaining and delightful.
And the people of Germany did not accept your apology benefit.
(04:13):
They called it severely adequate, which is not the same
thing as forgiveness. But we are We have asked you
on ridiculous history today, Will, because we vibe with each
other as you as you can tell ridiculous historians, we
wanted to hang out and we started talking with you,
Will and saying like, well, what are what are some
(04:34):
things that you are interested in historically? What are some
obscure things? What are some things that might be maybe
not known to people who are not somehow in the
world of these stories? And you wasted no time, no hesitancy.
I loved it. You came right to us and you said,
(04:55):
you guys ever talked about Macbeth? Have that locked and loaded?
Was waiting for somebody to ask me, anybody talk about
the Curse of McBeth. The Scottish play anybody, nobody, Okay,
I'll do it. Uh this is this is uh fascinating
tests maybe one of the ways that we get into
this just for anyone who doesn't know, like the rough
(05:17):
high level plot, the elevator pitch of McBeth had had
Billy shakes ha to give one what would Macbeth be
described as? Can I see have been really quickly because
I've been saving this and I have to do it.
There's a well, are you familiar with the show Little Britain.
I mean, yeah, i haven't watched it in a long time,
but I've seen I've seen a few episodes. It's good.
(05:39):
It's like it's a very huge in England. You know,
they tried to do an American version of it here
there's just a sketch on it that absolutely loved. There's
this character named Dennis Waterman, who I think is based
on a real you know, some sort of like niche
British person that we would never really be familiar with.
But the joke is that he's very small and he's
always going to his agent's office trying to get jobs
and turning down every job because he insists on being
able to write the theme tune sing the theme tune
(06:03):
and star in the show. And he gets asked if
he wants to be in uh in Macbeth, and he goes,
he wants to write the theme to just say this
is the song that he comes up. He goes, Mr Macbeth,
there's a naughty man a do do do do do?
Going and killed another man? Do do do do? Do Do? Do?
I have a good idea? Just thou keeps mena I'll
(06:27):
be so good for the Scottish play. That's it, And
that's the format of every theme tune he writes, And
that's it. But that I think it was a really
lovely description. A naughty man killed another man and then
stuff happens exactly. That's all you really need to know.
The broad strokes, Yeah, there were some strokes. What what what?
(06:48):
What's what's what's next? Let's give us the rundown. Who
is the other man that he kills? And one are
the things that hath happened? Yes? Well, you know Macbeth's
all about ambition and also about destiny. Macbeth essentially wins
a huge battle at the beginning of the play, and
then he encounters three weird sisters, some witches and uh
(07:09):
they greet him and say that he has all these
new titles and he's like, whoa, what are you talking about?
And then uh, they say he's one day gonna be
king and he's like, okay, interesting, I'm gonna, you know,
put that in my back pocket, hold onto it. He
basically tells his wife this. She gets just bloodthirsty with
this idea. She loves it. She's like, great, we're gonna
kill the king when he comes to the house tonight.
(07:30):
It's gonna be awesome. Macbeth is kind of like, I
don't know, that's maybe not the best idea. He's like,
you know, there's rules when you have a guest over,
you're not supposed to murder them. Maybe we shouldn't do this.
She's like, screw your courage to the sticking place, boyo.
And they decided to go forth forward with it, and
he he murders the king and becomes the king, and uh,
there's there's more scenes with the witches proclaimed are you know,
(07:52):
prophesizing as to his downfall, but he thinks he's invincible.
Um and the only way that he can be killed
is by a man who is not a woman. Born
m m Enter McDuff who was from his mother's womb, untimely,
untimely ripped. It was born of a cesarean section that
reminds me of the whole like the twist in Lord
(08:14):
of the Rings where it's like, no, no man can
kill whatever, Like The Ring where the leader of the
Ring wraiths and then you know, he gets killed and
he takes off the helmet. It's a woman. Yeah, yeah,
that's kind of the same kind of that's the same
kind of twist. I think that Tolkien probably stole a
(08:34):
little bit. Yeah, absolutely, profly, you know, loosely. Sorry, I'm sorry.
My girlfriend hates that when I say like that, this
shows me a band and my that is such a
rip off of this other thing. I seem to soften
my language, am I? What a lovely homage to this
other tributes? Right? Uh do you guys hear I made
(08:55):
up a new word. It's plagiarism. I'm kidding. I didn't
even write that joke anyway. So thanks well staff, thanks refunds. Yeah,
so it's a free podcast for the Yeah. So we
had a we had an interesting conversation about this offline.
(09:16):
This is a canonical play. It's a huge deal. A
lot of people have maybe acted in excerpts of this.
This player done an entire production years back in a
different life, I was cast in Macbeth. I I didn't
get to play McBeth. I wasn't a big big deal.
But it wasn't until I was able to be in
that production that I personally learned of the subject of
(09:38):
today's episode, which is this the Scottish play reputedly is cursed.
Why you're supposed to call it the Scottish play exactly,
and you know the name of the thing or the
Scottish business. I've also heard, Yeah, there's there's lots of variants,
but that is specifically the world, okay, al, because I
(10:00):
don't believe any of us are actually physically sitting in
a theater. I mean we are participating in a theater
of the mind. But that's different um physical the the
the hallowed grounds, the boards that that that that have
hath been tread uh, the theater that is specifically this
refers to as saying that name inside the theater. And
we're gonna get this amazing examples of this curse kind
(10:23):
of coming to fruition. Um. Whether or not you believe
in curses or not, it's hard to deny that there's
some spooky coincidences. But what is the history of the curse?
Why is Macbeth cursed the play itself? For those of
(10:44):
you who may not be Thesbians or Thespians, you may
not even be aware that there is this superstition and
and this taboo of saying that word inside of a theater.
But if you are around anybody with a B F A,
they will instantly jump down your throat if you say
that during because it's it's purportedly to bring very bad luck,
even if you're not performing that play. If you just
(11:06):
inside a theater, if you say Macbeth, it's horrible luck.
And then there's a bunch of crazy rituals to kind
of cleanse yourself if you do happen to Yeah, walking
witter Shans or whatever, what like was something like that. Yeah,
the theater company that I was a part of, you
had to go outside, spin in a circle, spit and
yell a curse word and then knock and ask permission
(11:28):
to be let back in the theater. A bunch of hullabaloo. Yeah,
your accuracy is everywhere, you know. But but there's there's
a process and you're absolutely right. I think everybody, even
people in the theatrical community consider themselves quite skeptical, will
still participate in this and treat it as though it
(11:49):
is a taboo, because it's kind of like, you know,
at some points, a cost benefit thing. If it's not real,
and then it doesn't matter what you do. But if it's,
if it is real, it's not very difficult to just
not say the M word right right, right. From what
I understand, this is a very very old thing. This
(12:11):
didn't just happen during like the Satanic panic in the
US of the How old is the belief in this curse?
I don't know why it is to almost say, coois,
we're not the three students, but it foiled again. It
apparently goes back to the first the very first production,
(12:32):
and it's carried throughout the centuries. Productions of the play
have been plagued with bad luck, deaths, sicknesses, and just
all sorts of crazy things happening, which makes you beg,
you know, begs the question of is there an actual
curse or are actors just clumsy and uncoordinated. It's you know,
(12:55):
up for debate. But the very first production of the play.
It was rumored that Shakespeare used real, not only incantations
from from witches, but also ingredients commonly used in their cauldrons.
Was one, Yeah, thumb of a sailor I think was
(13:17):
another one. How come that one didn't make the hit list?
You know what I mean? When we say I have
newed all the time, No one remembers some of the sailor. Yeah,
it's a good one. They're harder to come by. I
think it's true. It's hard, just like a pain blood bat,
I believe. But so what what was? What was? You know?
(13:39):
What was believed was that because he used this real
these real incantations and real ingredients, that the witches of
the time were piste off at his cultural appropriation, and
they placed a curse on the production. That's that's the
going story. And then very first performance actually was cursed
(14:03):
and the actor who was playing the young man male
actor playing Lady Macbeth came down with a fever and
died days before opening. And apparently Shakespeare himself was rumored
to have to have gone on in his stead, which
was common. Right. It was yeah, men playing women's roles, right,
that was the That was the usual. That was the norm.
(14:26):
It was the it was the Norman. Also, Shakespeare, probably
for being honest, was the person who had the next
best grasp of the lines. So at that point it's
just like a production decision, you know, and we know
there's something else that will I think, uh informed the
(14:48):
context here, which is the reign of King James the
First and King James the First, massive theater guy, massive
theater buff loved pay, patronizing the theater and being a
patron thereof, so he was like Shakespeare's number one most
important audience member, which is also why the King James
(15:10):
version of the Bible sounds like Shakespeare right kind of?
Was this the same? This is the King James that
did the Bible printings, right, I believe. So I'm telling you,
I mean that the way the King James version of
the Bible was translated it reads like Shakespearean pros in
a lot of ways. So I mean, I'm not saying
it was directly. It had to have been like the
style of the time, and it was probably largely because
(15:32):
of his uh, his fondness for the for the bard. Well,
Shakespeare been around. He was forty six years old in sixteen,
when people are finalizing the translations, so it can you
imagine uh, just knowing that the king is coming to
see your your play, like why you're writing it, and
being like, I'm pretty sure, pretty sure the King is
(15:53):
gonna come, so I'm gonna make sure he's into this thing.
So what's the king into demonology? I guess let's throw
ow some witches in here. Maybe he'd be into that.
He really he's playing to his audience. You know, he's
like writing this play just to please the King, like
you know, I don't know, if imagine if I don't know,
Joe Biden was listening to every episode of Particulous History,
like Scamps Somewhere. Let's less less to be screaming at
(16:19):
your podcast implements too loudly. I think my timing is
a little off, but it is something that people have
observed that the King, James, Bible and Shakespeare have a
similar tone. But the timing, to your point, bent isn't
quite right. But clearly what Shakespeare did he didn't do
in a vacuum. I mean, he didn't completely invent this,
this type of speaking, this type of prose, It was,
(16:40):
it was out there. He was just really good at
it and got really famous for it. Well, yeah, I
think it's the timeline is in support of that supposition,
because if Shakespeare's forty six in six, then that means
he's actively been writing, producing, in staging plays, so people
are going to be aware of his language. So that's
why I could see it definitely informing it because the
(17:02):
people doing the translation for the King are just like
Shakespeare in a way. They're saying, Okay, we've got one
very important reader. We got a v. I. P. Reader,
and we know what he likes. So let's just nobody lie.
You just kind of embellish, Okay, just kinda read the room.
And to jump in here real quick, I mean, what
(17:24):
is the sixteen o six? The King James Bibles are
in sixteen eleven, so I mean we're talking five years
difference right there. Now, there's definitely some some alignment, but
I don't want to go out on a limb and
say that it was definitely like one to one. But again,
I think that that type of speech, that type of
writing of of of theater was not something that Shakespeare
like invented out of whole cloth. He was just probably
(17:45):
the one that we think of the most. So there's
a lot of when you google this, like a lot
of people make this comparison and ask this question. But
he was a very important patron of Shakespeare, and apparently
he did not like the show. Not a of the
play could have been the whole murdering the king part
(18:05):
that clearly wasn't him. Though this is clearly a Scottish king,
you know, I mean it's and there's witchcraft at work,
you know, I mean I would have taken it as
like a compliment. It's like, well, only the malevolent forces
of Satan himself could bring me down. You know. There's
another part here too. You can find some I think
(18:27):
kind of in the weeds, but fascinating inaccuracies in Macbeth
that are I'm not gonna say percent proven, but like
it really seems as those Shakespeare himself kind of airbrush
some stuff, took some creative license with some characters, especially
if Jean James the First was considered a descendant of
(18:50):
the characters. This is not like the modern days where
you can say, okay, Joe Biden didn't like our podcast,
and so dang, he went on stage and mentioned it
in a mean way and kind of a rambling non
glued addressed to the nation. That would be great for
our numbers. Actually, back then, if the king didn't like
(19:13):
your play, he could arrest you. He could just have
you killed. You know what I mean? So big steaks.
What happens? You said, James doesn't like the play. Jimmy
is not happy, not pleased. And apparently because of that,
the show was not performed again for many, many, many
many years. And it's hard to exactly pinpoint when the
next performance was, but uh there there's some sites that
(19:38):
say that the next time it was performed was actually
not in England, but was performed in Amsterdam and in
sixteen seventy two, and that production also had some mishaps,
some some problems where apparently the actor who was playing
Macbeth was having an affair with the wife of the
(19:59):
actor playing Duncan and then chose to actually bring a
real dagger on stage and murder Duncan for real? What
during the during the performance? Dude, this is so funny. Um,
there's an episode of l A Law or maybe not
l A law leybe Law and Order. Um. Are you
(20:20):
familiar with the long running New York interactive play, Um,
Sleep No More? Yes? Yes, it's fabulous and it is loosely,
you know, tied to Macbeth. The the actual action that
takes place when you're in this, I would only just
I could only maybe describe it as like a an
interactive psychedelic consumers theater. Very one of the coolest things
(20:40):
I've ever experienced in my life. But there is an episode.
So yeah, so you you're walking around, You've got these
masks on, You're in the same space as the players,
and it's a three D space. You're walking upstairs and
you kind of chase whoever it's interested you do. You
kind of follow them around and get distracted and sort
of like being on a video game or something. It's
it's fabulous, but it does end in like the banquet
scene from McBeth. Isn't that in Macbeth? Yeah, there's a
(21:03):
banquet scene with like there's also some king Lear elements.
Point is there's an episode of Law and Order. This
play has been running that long, this this immersive thing,
probably since the nineties, where it's a thing like that,
but it's not exactly that. But the twist is that
someone actually kills the person for real in it, and
then you know the sam Waterson and his just crew
(21:24):
have to solve the crime. I just thought that was
funny connection. But yeah, what an interesting like He's been
used as a trope in other you know, pop cultural
kind of things. It was actually a thing in uh
Station eleven, which had to play within a play. But
the idea of killing someone for real, uh, in a
play where no one's expecting that to happen, and the
props can look a lot like real weapons, you know, Yeah,
(21:47):
it's not the best way to go about murdering someone.
I feel like, maybe do it after the show when
there's not an audience full of people, you know, yeah,
and then like where you're understudies at again, it's production
question to ethics society. But the situation this is weird
to me because there's already uh, we're seeing a work
(22:12):
of historical fiction is what we call it today, but
we're seed interact with real world consequences and there's a
lot you can read into it if you are someone
in the sixteen hundreds watching this and you see like
I had to play, God, what's the guy's named banquet
or some banquet I had to play and uh, they
(22:35):
have lines where it's like and often times to win
us to a haam. The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
win us with honest trifles to portray and deepest consequence. Basically,
they're saying a good way to lie to people is
to kind of tell them the truth. You know, centuries
later Emily Dickinson will say, tell the truth, but tell
(22:55):
its slant and and things like that. So I can
see audience members all ready very sensitive to this play
between fiction and fact and the I bring this up
because imagining seeing someone actually get fatally stabbed in front
of like, you would wonder whether it was on purpose.
(23:17):
You might even I would not be surprised if several
people in the in the theater, several like maybe folks
who weren't quite groundling level, weren't too close to this stage.
I'd be surprised if at least a few of them
didn't turn to each other and say, man, that guy
can act. That is commitment. You know. Special effects in
this production are yes, I love it, And this is
(23:42):
just one strange and disturbing incident. Right like you said,
this is kind of dogged. The Scottish business my new
favorite phrase now, the Scottish business. For a while Yeah,
that that's that was the next horrible, you know, tragedy
that that befell a production. You would think at some
(24:03):
point theater companies would be like, We're not doing this
play anymore. People keep dying, but they keep going. So
I think the next time that it was performed in
possibly in London, was it was a company called the
Dukes the Duke's Men. You gotta hit that liquid you
and you say, do you know, Duke, Duke pukes, Duke
(24:25):
doesn't puke. That's what they say. I prefer to even
just like go all the way and just combine and
call it the Dukesman, the Dukes and the Dukesman. So
they were a company. They were licensed by Charles the
Second to perform Macbeth at the time, and they were
they were this is early sixteen seventies, came to the
big duel of Macbeth McDuff and there was an accident
(24:45):
where the actor named Henry Harris accidentally ran his sword
through the eye of the actor playing Macbeth, killing him.
Which can you imagine being in the audience? Yeah, no,
being the guy, you know, either one of them, I
would feel terrible again, whether I've been run through the
(25:09):
eye or a run through someone someone's eye by accident.
A really quick housekeeping questions, you say, licensed by Charles.
The second was the king at this point just the
keeper of all intellectual property, Like you had to get
licensed or leave from the king to perform a play. Yeah,
I'm imagining, you know, like King's men going around being like, oh, yeah,
like this is an unlicensed Shakespeare show. You know nothing
(25:34):
to see it. I can see that. Yeah, this I
I agree with you. Guys, like the idea. Okay, you
can see someone appear to be stabbed in the torso
on stage, and it can look very believable. Right, so
even then you could say, hey, maybe that's a proper whatever.
But eyeballs are a lot harder to pull off realistically,
(25:56):
even in the modern days. So this was clearly a
fatal accident. And you know, I have to ask do
you think, and even if we're just speculating here, it's
a good question. Do you think this mccab series of
accidents and homicides would have made the play less popular
(26:17):
for the public or would it have been more compelling,
like would it have put more butts in seats? The
idea that it was dangerous m hm, so so it's
a big marketing scheme. I mean maybe they they cursed
the play themselves, you know, no, I have to say.
(26:39):
I mean I have always found this to be one
of the more interesting and grabby Shakespeare plays. I like
witchy stuff. I think we all do. I like Murder,
most foul all that. I I think the Lady Macbeth
character is interesting. I like madness, you know. Um. I
think that's why it's sort of persevered, and it's also
been a apted. I think so many good bit more
(27:03):
for for screen than than in any other Shakespeare play
that I can think of, not to mention, like the
Very lab like the Sleep no more things, but running
from ages and various adaptations of it, because how you
portray the witches is always interesting. Like I don't know
if you guys have seen the uh the New um
Cohen uh Shakespeare. But the woman who plays the Witches,
(27:24):
Catherine Hunter, freaking fantastic, like contorting her body and literally
playing like all three and like are they in her head?
Are there three of them? You don't even know? Sometimes
they're just a reflection and it's just so cool. It's
very like bergman esque. The whole production of that film,
so I don't know. I mean, it's so tight as Andronicus,
(27:44):
but it's laps. I love the love of the film adaptation.
I love the film adaptation of that by Julie Taymore.
It was, like, I think one of her only films.
She did a really kind of by my understanding, pretty
bad Beatles movie called Across the Universe. She's also famous
for like completely running that Spiderman musical into the ground,
(28:05):
turn Off the Dark. That was her uh And also
she's famous in a positive way for The Lion King.
She did all the production design for that. But Titus
is a really cool Shakespeare adaptation as where there's there's
something about Titus where it's like every on average, like
every seven lines, either a limb is hacked off or
somebody who dies the bloodiest of bloody plays see and
(28:27):
they say the guy doesn't have range. I'm kidding. People
don't say that about Yeah, I guess no. No. I
think that those are both interesting points because I think
maybe that's why Macbeth occupies this like a middle ground
between his like lighter work and more depressing work and
stuff like Ties is just too much because it's got
all of the chops of Titus. Literally, maybe not, it's
(28:49):
quite as many chops, but it's got like a lot
of the same drama and grotesqueness, but it's a little
more palatable. Yeah, I mean, I think shakespeare Titus was,
if I recall correct Lee, Shakespeare's first tragedy, tragedy historic
historians agree, yet like fifteen eighties something and like the
late fifteen eighties. So so by the time he gets
(29:12):
to make Beth, he's got he's he's learned a little
bit more more about the art of of subtlety, and
he's like, hey, maybe maybe you can earn a death
or dismemberment as a slow Burton, right, right, maybe we
don't cook the children into a pie and feed it
to their mother. Sorry, it's okay. Yeah, I think I
(29:35):
think we've passed the statute of limitations from spoilers on
that one. Yeah, so people still keep making Make Beth,
and uh, I think we're going to get to an
interesting question about just how cursed it may be. But
to do that, we should probably walk through a few
more incidents. Because it wasn't always actors stabbing each other,
(29:56):
whether out of anger or whether out of acces it right, right,
There was one in three where a category to hurricane
struck England and caused a ton of damage, millions of
(30:19):
pounds worth of damage and killed seaman right as the
play was opening. So that was one from the gods
that is three thumbs, just to point out they got
to go collect those. Yeah. So, so natural forces are
conspiring against people saying the M word on and then
(30:44):
what what about when the play goes He's already gone
international in Europe, but what about when it crosses the pond?
Because we know that the US since its inception, also
loved Shakespeare. Pretty much everybody agreed this guy was thought
of is the best author in the language of all time.
He's the goat. That's right. Well, the famous Aster Place Rights,
(31:08):
which I feel like I could have its own episode
because we did it didn't. Yeah, so let's go back
to the Aster Place Riots episode and actually but that
uh yeah, so that was two warring actors of the
great Edwin Forest and uh and then Charles McCready, which
I always think the other one is the British one
(31:30):
because Edwin Forest sounds like such a British name and
Charles McCready sounds like a real American name. But it's
the opposite, Mr McCready. What's that from? Mr mccrey, I
know what it is. I think it's Is it from
Dark City? Is there a character named Mr McCready? I
think The Dark City such a good movie, such a
good movie. But please, Yeah, this one, uh, this one
(31:52):
really escalates quickly and then it gets unnecessarily violent, you know,
for like a riot springing from a public performance of
a freaking play. Yeah, it wasn't really so much about
the play and at the Astro place, right, it was
just they so happened to be both performing Macbeth. But
it was more about just like using this event as
(32:13):
an excuse to start a riot. I feel like, yeah,
and again that that episode walks through some of the
context there, But there is a real death toll. People
are dead, many more wounded, many more have some sort
of injury. It's it's not what you associate with a
(32:33):
night at the theater unless you will about the Curse
of Macbeth. Did you talk at all about the supposed
hissing that they were doing to each other back and forth? McCready,
I think so. Yeah, there was definitely some real venom there.
They were going back. They were going to each other's productions,
and then when one of them would pause, the other
would be like, so great. But yeah, there was a
(33:01):
riot that ensued and and police were dispersed ended up
firing into a crowd and I believe around you know,
two dozen people or so, we're killed, insane and saying
and now we're getting to like modern history. Even so,
so it's weird when we talk about McCready and Forest
because they are not immortalized on film, right, so unless
(33:27):
you saw their performances in real time, you would be
reading reviews. So they maybe don't have the same stay
in power for a lot of people that actors do
once photography and once film go mainstream. And that's where
we see that the curse of Macbeth continues to actors
that you may know of today, folks, you may have
(33:49):
seen their work. I mean, I would say, Sir Lawrence
Olivier maybe the most famous Shakespearean actor of all time.
And and Olivier did a performance or production at the
Old vic In seven and he was preparing to play
Macbeth for the first time. And uh, the director and
(34:11):
I think the woman who was playing Lady mc duff
were in a car accident on the way to the theater.
Two days later, the dog belonging to the Old Vics
founder was run over by a car. So even dogs
aren't safe from this purse, even the theater pets. And
then Olivia was apparently so distraught by all of this
that he lost his voice and couldn't speak, and that
(34:34):
had that caused the opening to be postponed, and then uh,
three days after the show was opening, the director was replaced.
There was just just wrought with with horrible things. A
twenty five pounds stage weight apparently crashed down from the flies,
barely missing Sir Lawrence Olivier's head by inches. That's the stuff,
(34:57):
that's the stuff of theater chaos right there, you know.
And bags Willie Nilis Phantom of the Opera type stuff
right there, my friends. And then also uh, the woman
who was playing I believe Lady Macbeth died of a
heart attack just before dress rehearsal. And then the next
time the Old vic produced that show, the portrait of
of the the actress whose last name is Bayliss that
(35:18):
was hung in the theater. It fell from the wall
on opening night. Geez. And so in the in the
realm of the folklore we're exploring. Then the logic of
this curse would be that these disasters don't occur for
every production of the Scottish business. They occur when someone
anyone in the theater, whether actor, Crewe or civilian, says
(35:43):
Macbeth in the room, right in the building. It's apparently
it's okay to say it if you're performing the piece,
if you're doing that, because obviously you have to say
it a number of times, and if every time you
said it you had to go outside it spin around,
spit becaus and knock on the door and has for
permission really slowed down on the rehearsal process. But I
think the performance of the play in general is you're
(36:06):
you're undertaking your you know, your undergoing a cursed project,
a cursed script. So the accompanying superstition is, yeah, is
remnants from all of these productions throughout history that have
led to deaths and and accidents and horror. That's what
I was going to ask, Like, it doesn't necessarily mean
(36:28):
it's only triggered by someone saying it out loud, And
I guess what what if? What if it's in the
in so it's it's in the course of doing the play,
you're gonna say the name um. So it's basically the
whole implication is that the play itself is cursed, should
never be performed. In his name, should not be spoken
and in the hallowed halls of of the theater. Has
there ever been an adaptation where they just say the
(36:49):
M word every time they're gonna say Macbeth, like they
literally just say the M word. I would watch it.
We should do that one the first non curse production
of But when they get confusing is you got McDuff,
you got Lady Macbeth as well, So they have to
have different distinctions for each of those. Could just be
a different sound effects, you know McBeth is like and
(37:13):
like McDuff is like. That was too confusing. It should
be different, more different than that, maybe like a that's
too long? What we can workshop this? I like the idea, though, yeah,
I like if we didn't in word, I don't want
to overcomplicate this. But then for like, let's go with
your idea for for notable sound effects, you know, like
an ear is great, and then maybe I just want
(37:38):
to hear people say yeaws instead of a name or
a Wilhelm scream, you know, for Lady Macbeth. That could
be cool. Yeah, my my lord, one I would go
to that. I would go to that. And the question
would be, is would if they did it and did
it consistently, how long would it take for it to
(37:58):
not be funny anymore and for you just to be
like invested back in the drama of the play. I
can tell you from instantly or never, Yeah, I can
tell you from experience. It's a it's a two hour,
twentysomething minute production with a fifteen minute information intermission. So
maybe the best way to do it would be to
slowly beat me here, Max, slowly escalates until at the
(38:24):
end it's it's absurdest, you know what I mean. And
you're just noticing people by the way that they're dressed
in the sound effect like it's cacophonous, you know. I
would love that the sound design would need to evolve.
I am with you, like we will evolve with the
rising action of the play. I like this idea. Let's
do it the first ridiculous History theater production of Mick
(38:48):
w Yeah. Well, oh yeah, Max, that's you also have
to you also have to play one of the characters,
so clear, clear the schedule. You do this to me.
I love this spinoff idea of a ridiculous theater. Yea, yes,
well my stories out there in the in the theater.
(39:08):
And and the last last thing, there could be a
McDonald's tie in and one of the characters could just
be like there could be chicken. That could be you know, McCafe,
it could be Yeah, I see, guess we've talked about
this before, but like you know, we can finally explore,
like what happened to Ronald McDonald's. Yes, I've got the guy.
I did the research. I've got this one for next
(39:30):
a future episode. I want to try something that will
do you know what grimaces? Yeah, of course, like like
what what what species? Yeah? What is he? An anthropomorphic
version of oh um? I don't know how hippo came
to mind for some reason that I would have said.
I would have said yu vila perhaps, or um, you know,
(39:53):
some like a misshapen grape. But color. I thought he
was a sauce blob. There you go, because a nice
purple he's purple as hell. Max more mind, Yeah, he
is a taste bud. Get the sound cute and andish
(40:16):
just for you right now. It's gross. It's just gross.
They had so many other things they went past before
they got the sound. But I mean taste. But they
could have said, like so someone pitched tongue and someone
else said, nana, it's too much, too general, too sensual,
(40:40):
more specific. They probably called him taste buddy at first.
That's right there. What he's also huge, he's the biggest
of all of them. He's massive. Well, I think that
we are helping McDonald's here. We're presenting some clear business opportunities.
The M word is going to be a hit. Look
(41:00):
for it at a theater near you. But give us
some time, give us some time in the writer's room.
Before we wrap up, though, I gotta get to the
present day. I mean, there's some really good ones leading
up to a massive pop cultural phenomenon that happened not
three months ago. That's right, that was the reason why
I was on my mind. But just to fly through
some of the more recent ones. I love the one
(41:22):
about Charlton Heston who his his tights were soaked in
kerosene and his tights caught on fire during the performance,
and like he had burns all over his groins and legs,
which is tomorrow at tomorrow route what he has a
good point, oddcasting choice, like talk about a scenery each
(41:45):
youur and a very specific delivery, you know. And then
we also had Alec Baldwin in a production in who
he sliced open the hand of the actor playing McDuff
and shooting the face. I was gonna say, it's a
sad uh, you know, it's it's that we're seeing from
(42:06):
Alec babo. I don't mean to make light it is
a terrible thing, but it's like, yeah, I made a
joke about sailor thumbs. I mean, what's the statute of limitations?
There's also there's also uh, this is this was interesting.
I don't know a lot about modern celebrities because it
different philosophical, ideological reasons. But I was really interested that
(42:28):
you pointed out and some of the research will that
this came up during the what was the Academy Awards,
That's right. I I was watching the Oscars, which was
going fine and just a normal Oscars, and then you know,
something happened. And what I noticed was that Chris Rock
(42:50):
was on stage and he said, quote Denzel macbeth loved it,
and then right after he said that, I was like, oh,
I shouldn't have said that. You should have said that
you're in a theater, Chris, that's mad. Luck shouldn't have
said that. Went a little nuts too, while all the
Theato nerds took to Twitter and we're like oh. And
then moments later Will Smith was possessed by the ghost
(43:12):
of a witch and slapped Chris Rock in the face
m hm, unprecedented. And then later one one one quite
prestigious award. I don't know if you want to say
prestigious or prestigious. I just feel like prestigious sounds fancier, unnecessary,
Like it's like the it's like the thespian thespian question geeks,
(43:34):
when you're talking about the mayonnaise. It's definitely dukes. Dukes,
English Royalty, gentry, Landed gentry are dukes. Yeah, if anybody
was like, would you like some dukes on your sandwich?
Or ham sandwich with some dukes? Like a spy, a spy,
(43:57):
I've found him, who are you working for? So there
was another one, and and I think it's I think
it's a neat book, and that this is the one
we're wrapping up with because as you, as you foreshadowed
just a second ago, Will, there is a reason, very specific,
recent reason that Macbeth was on your mind. So perhaps
we were incorrect when we thought this guy's just had
(44:19):
this locked and loaded for years. You know what brought
this story to the forefront of your mind when we
asked about cool stories from history. I mean it was
it was mainly the Chris Rock situation that it was
still rattling around in my head. But then also Daniel
Craig is doing a production on Broadway, and I mean,
(44:40):
I feel like this is going to be more common
and not just productions of Macbeth. But they had to
cancel some preview performances because multiple people tested positive for
COVID nineteen, which is the new curse of of theater
and live events. Glad we had a golden little moment
where everything felt kind of normal again, and now it's
like everyone's again that all over again. We just fietfully.
(45:03):
It seems like the cases are mild, office party are
good bye office party because of because of COVID. It's
it's hitting everybody equally. Um obviously because of Macbeth, and
obviously because someone said Macbeth in the studio years ago.
I blamed Jonathan Strickland ak the quister, But we do
want to unless we do a disservice with the very
(45:24):
skeptical people in the crowd, we do have to point
out methodology here. There have been many many productions of
the Scottish business over the centuries, and you're not near
as likely to hear about the ones where things went
off without a hitch. Will and Nolan, Max and I
are well aware of this. But it's happened often enough
(45:46):
that people really do believe this superstition. They really do
believe that just maybe that that curse from like the
sixteen hundreds still around today. Right. I got one question, Ben,
the production that you were in, did anything wonky happen
or did anybody get hurt emotionally? Oh? Yeah, blood bath?
But uh that's a great question, Will, So we had
(46:09):
we did have a couple of people who dropped out.
We had one person who could no longer be in
the production because they got arrested, unrelated I think to
the play. But if for people who really believe in
this um, this curse or this superstition, then maybe that
would be something they could point to. I'll just tell
(46:31):
you it's uh, it's still. I have massive respect for
Shakespearean actors. I wouldn't consider myself one of those. Uh.
I have massive respect for anybody involved with with staging
a production of Shakespeare, because those things are intense, they
are long, and you really have to work to make
sure that it's it's relatable, you know what I mean. Yeah,
(46:54):
I I've never done a production of Macbeth. I would
love to, hopefully it goes well. I have been injured
once though, during a Shakespeare play. It was a Midsummer
Night's dream and I was stabbed in the throat, which
it was the back of my throat was punctured with
a fake flower that had a point like a metal
(47:15):
piece for twisties. For doing the twisties. Thanks, thanks, But
it was literally in the middle of the first fairy
Puck scene and I always put this flower in my mouth,
and for some reason, one of the buds had fallen off,
and the wire stabbed me and punctured the back of
my throat, and I had to continue doing the play,
and I had a mouthful of blood and I was
(47:35):
holy cow. A mouthful of blood is the name of
something that's a song punk band. It doesn't know. I
think it exists. It does exist. You're right, you're right.
It's like smiling through a mouthful of blood or laughing
with a mouth I can't remember it some god things.
But I have a theory, not a theory. It's just
a theory that refers back to the version of Macbeth
that I have the most fond memories of, which is
(47:56):
the sleep no More thing I talked about. There's no
dialogue in this version of McBeth at all. Uh, it's
just pantomimeed and like you know act, you know, dance
and stuff, and um, it's all you know the action.
You're aware of it from being familiar with the play.
But they don't speak, so no wonder. It has such
a long and illustrious run and they shut it down,
um for COVID, But it is back. The company is
(48:18):
called Punch Drunk. I think that does it, and they
use some other kind of immersive theater things, and I
just can't speak highly enough of it. If you're in
New York and it's a little pricey but absolutely worth
your time, it's like the coolest, most arts haunted house
that you'll ever set foot in. It's for four and
a half hour experience in the time just zips by.
It's well worth it. Yeah, I I have a I
(48:39):
have a question for you. Will This is just is
probably gonna be on the mind of a lot of
our fellow listeners today. Does the make Beth curse apply
specifically to the to the show Macbeth or is it
just for bolting to say the M word for any
product like have p will die during west Side Story
(49:02):
because someone with an ax to grind ran in it
was like and then ran back right. So I think
if yeah, if you get more granular with it, I'm
sure every fress been out there has some story to
share about somebody saying it in a theater and then
something going horribly awry. Um, so yeah, it's it's uh.
(49:25):
It does echo out and it reverberates out into any
production anything happening in a theater. If you are to
utter the name of that play, that character and not
cleanse yourself, you are opening yourselves up to the curse.
Or actors are just clumsy and uncoordinated. Yes, yes, And
(49:46):
which which remains the truest of the of the two possibilities?
We leave that to you. I think I don't know
about you guys, but I've gotta go run outside real quick.
It's been around three times. Curse loudly and spitted some
stuff just to make sure the weekend goes as planned.
In the meantime, what an amazing story, will And thank
(50:09):
you so much for coming on the show today. Could
you tell us a little bit more about where people
can find your work and uh, maybe a little bit
about what we meant when we said award winning play. Right, Yeah, Well,
thank you so much for having me. It's been it's
been a pleasure. Um. But yeah, you can listen to
(50:30):
my podcast hashtag Storytime wherever you get your podcasts, and
definitely check out this season because, as we mentioned at
the top, Bends on it, Nol's on it, any Reese,
Lauren Foke, Obam, Mike John's a lot of great stories
on there. And then I, Yeah, I'm a huge theater
lover and I live in l A. And I'm I'm
always trying to involve myself in in different productions out here,
whether they want me or not. But I recently, uh
(50:53):
recently participated in a short play festival called the brisk Festival,
and uh I wrote and to a short play called
The Mating Ritual of Snails and it one the best
play and I won Best Director or something that's awesome.
Is it just a bunch of snails just kind of
grinding against each other in slow motion like in Microcosmos?
More and more or less, it's two It's about two
(51:15):
snails meeting and going through their very interesting, unique mating process.
Do you know what I'm referring to? The film Microcosmos
like a French nature documentary thing. It's the same people
that did Wing Migration, So it was like a very
early kind of high art kind of nature documentary. And
there's one sequence where it's just these two snails just
(51:37):
grinding their torsos against each other. It looks like a
thing that you can probably picture, uh, and the opera,
gorgeous opera aria playing in the background. And it's the
most hilarious and erotic thing that I've ever seen. And
it's a kids movie. You've probably seen the cover of it.
They didn't market it very well. Back when blockbushes a thing,
it's like a grasshopper wearing sunglasses on the cover and
(51:59):
it's called microcos So it's actually a artsy kind of
French um super what's the word. Yeah, micro kind of
like nature documentary about bugs and snails and things. I'm
gonna get into that this weekend. But yeah, I mean
snails they do they make love for twelve hours? Yeah,
I mean that's where Sting picked it up. I heard
(52:19):
Sting of the animal format but hilarious and ironic. I
had a few exes. You're described me that way? Uh
what better way? In thanks? Yeah? Well, thank you so much.
Do check out story Time, not just the episodes dull
and iron though, uh thill. We hope you enjoy those
as well. Of course, thanks as always to our own
(52:42):
kind of our our own. Kenneth brought up the one
and only Mr Max Williams. Max, Thanks for classic up
the show. Quick kiss to the sky from Max. Thanks
also to Alex Williams who composed this amazing soundtrack playing
this out NOL. Thank you to you. I once again,
I haven't said this on air, and I'm still trying
to convince you to take an improv class with me.
(53:03):
I think we would have so much. Oh dude. After
this next COVID wave, I was super down. It's something
that always terrified me in a previous life, but now
I'm like, you know what, why not? You only live
once unless you flat through the eye during improv. That
could happen. Someone could point wildly, you know, and actually
go too far and just jam you right in the
(53:23):
eyeball or the throat. Lots of dangerous things can happen
in the theater. But you know what, it's all for
love of of the craft. He'll fly up for the
improv class. Hey, alright, let's do it. It's settled. We'll
see you next time, Foix. For more podcasts for my
(53:46):
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