July 9, 2025 • 44 mins
This type of cuisine involves elements like pork shoulders and ribs, charcoal and hickory wood, a dry rub, a tangy sauce – and impassioned arguments about what to do with them. Anney and Lauren cue up the history and cultures behind Memphis-style barbecue.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Saber Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie Reese.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode
for you about Memphis style barbecue.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Who m yeah, that's how I feel. What an endeavor?
Yep yep.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
First, this one really made me miss travel for this show,
because I would have loved to have gone to all
of these places, experienced them for ourselves, and also talked
to the humans because I strongly believe that them saying
(00:48):
it would be more entertaining than us saying it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Oh yeah, I absolutely think so strong opinions. I mean, oh,
we knew anytime barbecue.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, of course, this is part of why we haven't
done more episodes on barbecue.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Also, like, I.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Don't know about you any but like I am not
a Memphis style expert. Nope, I have not been to Memphis. Okay,
all right, so yeah, so please do let us know
if we're wrong about anything. But also please do hold
(01:29):
for the end of the episode because we're offering a
number of caveats as we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Go A numbers. Yeah, correct, Well, I believe I know
the answer, but I shall ask, was there any particular
reason this was on your mind? Lauren.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, yeah, so we just had the Fourth of July
holiday here in these United States that we are currently
living in. And you know, there are some real weird
things going on in the US right now, some perhaps
(02:10):
reasons to not celebrate, but you know, we are still
a union of people with incredibly differing opinions about barbecue.
And you know what is more American than that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Truth? And I hope you listeners will write in with
some of your opinions after this episode. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, strong opinions always welcome. And yeah,
I don't know why I started in Memphis. I guess
I was like looking at the sauces and felt like
this was a good place to start from a sauce perspective.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
A lot of consideration went into this. It's very frightening
to step into this arena. I must, it really is.
We're gonna face it bravely, this this pit if you will. Yeah, ah, yes,
So for past episodes, we have touched on this before
we did an Ashville episode about barbecue.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah. The two main Ashville barbecue related episodes are one
about comfort food and nostalgia. It's called Nostalgia comfort Food
in Carolina barbecue. And then there's a bonus episode that's
like mostly an interview that's called Taking Cues from a
pit Master.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So yeah, yes, so those molasses, cole saw potato, salad,
mac and cheese, the interview we did with Howard Conyers.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, any, any and all of those. Sure, probably
a lot of other things too, but I think those
are some of the most relevant. Sure, all right, let
us bite the bullet.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Okay, I guess this to our question, Memphis style barbecue,
what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, Memphis style barbecue is a set of ingredients and
processes and traditions around smoking and serving proteins that developed
in Memphis, Tennessee. The typical protein is pork, specifically the
pork shoulder and the pork ribs. Both are often given
(04:39):
a dry rub before cooking. And this dry rub is
complex and every cook respectfully referred to here as a pitmaster,
is going to have their own blend. But you can
expect a base of salt, paprika, chili powder, maybe brown sugar,
along with other things like cayenne pepper, black pepper, garlic,
and onion, mustard and celery seed, all in powder form
(05:01):
because again, dry rub. Yeah, the proteins are again sometimes
rubbed with this seasoning mix and then usually smoked low
and slow over charcoal and smoldering hardwood, typically hickory, which
cooks the meat and also infuses it with like smoky
woodsy flavors. These proteins are typically cooked until they're tender,
(05:23):
but not like completely meltingly soft. Both will have a
little bit of a chew to them, like the ribs
won't fall off the bone when you pick them up.
The shoulder will be served pulled, that is, shredded, sometimes chopped,
sometimes as is on a plate with sides, and sometimes
on a sandwich with toppings like Memphis style barbecue sauce
and coal slaw. The ribs will be served either dry
(05:45):
like as is, or wet, meaning slathered in that barbecue sauce.
The saucing question is a tomato based sauce made with
a base of tomato pure and or ketchup molasses and
or brown sugar plus vinegar, and that's going to be
seasoned with things like onion, garlic, mustard, cayenne, pepper, worst
shear and hot sauce, which results in like a reddish
(06:08):
brown sauce that's mid thin and like tangy, spicy sweet.
Sometimes the pit master will baste the ribs with the
sauce during cooking so that it kind of like caramelizes
into the meat. So okay, So the proteins are like
just so savory and smoky and a little bit spicy sweet,
and the sauce will just amp that, although some purists
(06:32):
will tell you that the dry ribs are best with.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
The sauce on the side.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Side Dishes to coordinate with all those flavors and to
make a meal may include that colesla again, stewed greens,
corn on the cob, mac and cheese, potato salad, French fries, hushpuppies,
and or corn bread. So it's all kind of messy
and indulgent and so satisfying, Like barbecue is just beautiful.
(07:03):
It is Memphis on a plate.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And Memphis, you are delicious. Oh I need to go
so badly.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Also, I think that was the longest what is it
that I've ever written for the show. It's a lot,
if not the longest, quite long, like like right up there,
top top three. And even within all of this fairly
specific set of guidelines that I've just laid out, there
(07:36):
is of course room for argument, like the exact cut
of meats that you use are a matter of preference.
For the ribs you're talking about baby backs versus spare ribs.
Babybacks being from like the top of the rib cage,
they can be more tender and flavorful. Spares are longer
and less meaty, so you get like a different texture
(07:57):
from the finished rib. Baby bags can further come with
the rib tip cut off. That's another argument for pulled pork.
You can use the Boston butt, which is like the
top of the shoulder.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It has less.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Fat and bone in it, or you can go with
the picnic shoulder, which is the lower part with more
fat and bone in and it's usually butchered with a
skin on, which can help with moisture but also prevent
smoke penetration. I cannot tell you what to do. No, No,
whatever cut you're using, what do you smoke it over?
All wood wood plus charcoal, all charcoal, lump charcoal or briquettes?
(08:34):
What kind of wood like? Is hickory necessary? Or can
you toss some apple or peachwood on there? I don't
know what temperature do you go? For a lot of
recipes say low and slow, but one of the original
Memphis rib joints, Rendezvous cooks some hotter and faster using
this like vinegar based mop sauce during cooking, a type
of basting sauce to maintain moisture. MOP sauce might be
(08:57):
seasoned with some or all of the ingredients that you
in your dry rub. In this cooking style, you don't
use the dry rub as a rub, but rather dust
your finished ribs with it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I'm overwhelmed already. H But wait, there's more.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
More. Generally speaking, dry versus wet is a really big deal. Also, Okay, So,
like in the rub, sugar and how much sugar is controversial,
and then let's talk about the sauce in the sauce.
Your ratio of tomato to vinegar is a strong preference
that people have, though the other ingredients tend to remain
(09:36):
like basically the same. I say basically because I've seen
all kinds of different ingredients. In addition to the sort
of basics that I listed above, I've seen like rosemary, thyme,
a regino, celery, salt, ginger, cuman, coriander, allspice.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I found a really funny It was a co read
where someone was claiming no one dry rib dry rub
ribs are a myth what, and that they don't exist
in Memphis and that there's like only one place that
does it. Wow everywhere else, no one else does it.
(10:18):
And everyone was chiming in like I've gotten them here here,
but it just cracked me up. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
No, I read a lot of menus in preparing for
this episode, and I can guarantee, I mean, unless the
menus are lying.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
A trick.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I I guess it's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We we haven't been there. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Also,
like we have to talk about the coleslaw.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We did talk in our Coalsla episode about different recipes
basically like creamy versus non creamy. Memphis has virgins of both,
one creamy and sweetened. One tends to be non creamy
and sharper with like mustard and bandeger. Other sides are
a side quest. I can't this episode is already long, yep.
(11:16):
But Fishionados talk about the bark of the ribs. By bark,
I mean that the outer crust that develops as the
surface dries out during cooking, which is not unmitigated. Recipes
that I've seen call for spritzing the ribs with water
every half hour or so, and or using a mop
sauce and or doing a sort of baste with butter
(11:38):
towards the end of cooking. Memphis pit masters do also
cook other proteins. You can often find chicken on the
bone and or pulled beef.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Brisket.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Sausages, and sandwiches and plates are not all that you
can do with Memphis style barbecue. One popular way of
using the pulled pork is in barbecue spaghetti, which is
a dish made by cooking down like a tomato based
pasta sauce including I mean, you know, like whatever you
want to put in a tomato based pasta sauce, like onions, garlic,
bell pepper, italiany herbs like oregano, and basil. Cook that
(12:13):
down along with like a lot of Memphis barbecue sauce,
and then add in pulled pork to kind of like
stud the sauce with the way that you would like
ground beef or whatever. Yeah, served on top a spaghetti.
Pulled pork is also a topping on pizza. I read
a lot about rib tip fried rice.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
YEP, A lot of it's found its way into a
lot of things, for sure. M hm, for sure. Well
what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
When we're talking about a lot of different things here,
that's I watch your portion sizes, drink water, eat a
vegetable that has not been cooked with pork at some point.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
At some point.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah yeah, maybe not today.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, maybe not with your barbecue dish. Yeah, okay, Well
we do have some numbers for you, okay, yeah we do.
Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So there are around one hundred barbecue restaurants in Memphis,
like in and around Memphis, and I mean by that
barbecue focused restaurants, not including places that like happen to
serve one barbecue dish, which seems like a lot for
a city, does seem like a lot, but like a delicious,
(13:33):
amazing a lot, happy, happy about it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Every year, during the month long Memphis in May festival,
there is a four day World Championship barbecue cooking contest,
sometimes called the Super Bowl of Swine all right. In
twenty twenty five, it was in its forty seventh year
and over one hundred and teams participated. It had categories
(14:03):
for ribs, shoulder, whole hog, other meats, junior's contests for
kids nine to seventeen years of age, and then categories
for sauces, tomato, mustard, and vinegar based the best booth,
the best T shirt, and Miss Piggy Idol, which is
like a team music and or dance competition that seems
(14:26):
to feature like a lot of men in drag with
pig costume elements. All right, I think there's also barbecue
sauce wrestling.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Okay, seems like a pain to clean, but sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Also I feel like there's a number of elements, both
the sugar and the vinegar. I don't know anyway. Not judging,
just saying if you are not participating or judging in
any of this, like like official judging, not like judgment judge.
I mean, you know you can judge all the time,
judge all you want, but if you're not officially judging.
There are many food vendors at this festival and folks
(15:06):
selling their rubs and their sauces, plus live music and
cooking demos. This festival does have a serious economic impact
on the city. As of twenty seventeen, it drew nearly
sixty four thousand people, about half of whom were from
out of town, and generated thirty seven point seven million
dollars workers earned seven million bucks during it, it raised
(15:28):
like a million bucks in tax revenue. Attendance has dropped
since twenty seventeen, but it is still really huge.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Wow. People love barbecue. They do they do.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
They love it so much that there is in fact
a second barbecue competition basically at the same time in Memphis,
called the Smoke Slam. It was only in its second
year as of twenty twenty five. All right, m I
will say that at both of these events the teams
(16:07):
have some pretty rad names, like a Porkalypse now the
parent head Porkers of Hagaritaville, Snoutcast, Game of Bones, brown Chicken,
brown Cow, and the Procrastinators.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Excellent. Yeah it's just a sampling. Yeah, Snoutcast got me
as an at alien. Yes, thank you. Snoutcast spelled the
quet Yeah all right.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
At Memphis barbecue joints, the rub and the sauce recipes
are serious secrets. Perhaps obviously at one the barbecue Shop,
only four people have known the sauce recipe in seventy
some years of service.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
But some of these places do ship around the US
and beyond. The aforementioned Rendezvous has a whole kitchen set
up for distribution and they're smoking oven for pork shoulders
can hold two hundred and forty pork shoulders at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Oh wow, yep, yep, wow. You know this does bring
back memories because part of the reason this show exists
it is because when we went to Austin, Lauren and
I went in on a bunch of food adventures, but
barbecue was a big part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Absolutely, But I remember looking into can I get this
stuff shipped? And it was so expensive. I don't know
what the deal is at. Oh that's another don't yell
at me. I know that's a separate thing.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Sure, sure, but yes, yeah, but uh so, how did
we get to hear? An excellent question, and we do
have a lot of history for you, which we will
get into as soon as we get back from a
quick break. For a word from our sponsors, and we're back,
(18:25):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Okay. So the history of roasting meat is ancient. It's
part of the reason these episodes are so daunting. Yeah,
but yes, it's ancient. When discussing American barbecue history, in particular,
Indigenous folks for roasting meat low and slow, long before
European colonization. This way of cooking worked for several reasons.
(18:51):
It didn't burn the meat or the wood, and provided
flavor and tenderness to the meat.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Specifically, when the Spanish arrived in the Caribbean in like
the late fourteen hundreds, they observed the local Tino people
roasting meat on these wooden frames over fires like vertical
posts with a kind of rack or grill dare I
say on top? And the tiny word for this frame
was a barrabku or bbque or similar like I've seen
(19:22):
it written a few different ways.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
The Spanish started calling this style of cooking barbicoa, and
they took it with them as they traveled farther up
into the Americas, into what's now the southern United States.
They modified it as they went, moving away from the
shallow pit that they witnessed towards deep pit barbecue, higher heat,
and faster. There are also several early accounts of Europeans
(19:50):
describing how this meat was seasoned or basted with a
type of early hot sauce uh okay. The first known
reference to barbecue sauce was from an eighteen seventy one
Tennessee publication, but there had been plenty of other references
and recipes for things like a sauce for barbecues. Most
(20:13):
of these early sauces were butter and vinegar seasoned with
salt pepper, which sounds good. I'm into it. Oh yeah.
A lot of pitmasters r cagey about what spices things.
But we do know that enslaved Africans also influenced methods
and taste of American barbecue styles. For centuries in America,
(20:34):
they were doing the cooking, seasoning, prepping, serving, and after
emancipation they had these skills that were desired. The various
styles that developed and seasonings used were impacted by pockets
of immigrants too, so a large German population, for instance,
led to some places creating a mustard based sauce. However,
(20:57):
the story is slightly different when it comes to Memphis.
There are a couple of reasons that barbecue took off
in Memphis the way that it did. One is location
and the fact that it's a port city located on
the Mississippi River that meant access to, amongst other things,
a variety of spices, hardwood, barrels of molasses, tomatoes, all
(21:22):
of which ended up in this style of barbecue. In
one way or another. Molasses was cheaper than refined sugar
at the time, so it became the sweetener of choice
for a while. It ended up in all kinds of things,
including in a variety of marinades and sauces for meat.
Vinegar was readily available in the South at this time too.
(21:44):
When it comes to the strong emphasis on pork in
Memphis style barbecue, ever since the Spanish brought pork to
the Southern US and the fifteen hundreds, pork was a
staple of the Southern barbecue seam. They were plentiful. For one,
pigs were generally cheaper than cows in terms of maintenance
in farming Texas barbecue separate conversation. But in terms of
(22:07):
Memphis yep, yep, uh huh, they didn't really need land
to graze like cows did. For instance, farmers sometimes released
the pigs into the wild so that they could feed themselves,
only to catch them later. If there wasn't enough food
to feed the pigs and the meat was tough after
they were slaughtered because they were thin, farmers would often
(22:27):
turn to low and slow styles of cooking. Some sources
suggest that over time, pigs became a source of Southern
pride and neighborhoods, and even politicians would host barbecues after
slaughtering pigs. It was a really communal affair. Over time,
as the South urbanized and shifted away from agriculture to
(22:51):
some extent, people relied less on raising and slaughtering their
own pigs, but could instead buy pork at grocery stores.
This led to a prolific of restaurants taking over the
task of barbecue because it was an intensive task. Often
these restaurants were small, sometimes even just shacks open only
(23:11):
on weekends because they were run by farmers who had
all this other stuff to do and the process took
so long. The nineteen tens is when we first start
seeing commercial barbecue sauces in the US. By the nineteen twenties,
numerous barbecue restaurants started opening in Memphis, a lot of
them still quite small. Pitmasters experimented with spice rubs, typically
(23:35):
on various cuts of pork, and spices to add into
the sauces offered for the meat as well. Molasses was
often added as a sweetener or sometimes brown sugar. People
enjoyed the style of barbecue for lunch and on late
nights out listening to music or what have you. It
was a very popular We're going out, let's get barbecue.
(23:57):
Yeah yeah, and this was a t I'm of a
lot of change for Memphis. The population of black people
in the city increased from three thy eight hundred during
Civil War times to over fifty thousand at the dawn
of the twentieth century. It also became a place people
visited on weekends and a hub for musicians. This meant
people wanted food and they wanted entertainment. A lot of
(24:20):
these places had jukeboxes or dance floors, live music, they
sold alcohol, or they had quick pickups so people could
find their own entertainment and eat their food there. Many
of these restaurants, even if employing black folks, though, were
segregated in one way or another. The food, however, was
(24:41):
beloved and often viewed as something people of all classes
had opinions on. And people had their favorite haunts and
just so specific on when to go and how it
was working there. So let's get into some of the
big names. Yeah yeah, oh my, I will start with
(25:02):
John H. Mills. John H. Mills opened a barbecue joint
in the late nineteen twenties that went on to specialize
in pork ribs and shoulder. He took them over a
brick pit located outside, basing them periodically with a peppery
hot sauce. According to an AP report from nineteen thirty eight,
his restaurant was beloved and it was a pit stop
(25:23):
for celebrities in the area. He pioneered shipping barbecue by mail. However,
the restaurant closed in the nineteen fifties. From what I read,
most of his family was like, this is too much
work to run it. I don't want to do it.
Oh well, fair enough, fair enough. Also in nineteen thirty eight,
(25:43):
a man named James Willis started working as pitmaster at
Memphis's Leonard's Barbecue, which is founded in nineteen twenty two.
He allegedly invented the Memphis style sandwhich, though some sources
indicate that term or something very similar to this sandwich
was being sold long before he started working there.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, and that's the one with the sauce and also
the coals law on it. And supposedly the way that
this came about is that the kitchen was like running
low on pork one day, but they still had a
lot of orders coming in and so they just like
added slaw to the sandwiches to fill them out and
it stuck.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yes, As is often, story makes sense, it makes sense.
Leonards was also offering barbecue spaghetti by the nineteen fifties,
which yes, is essentially spaghetti topped with barbecued pulled pork
half moonera and half barbecue saus I'd never heard of this,
but I'm into it. From what I understand, this is
(26:42):
a Memphis specialty, and a lot of other places started
offering it. From what I also understand, they were not
the originator of it, but they popularized it. I couldn't
find the originator, but I think it had been around previously.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, and I will say out load in case I
didn't make it clear early. Your Memphis style sauce is
typically thinner and less sweet than like a Kansas City
style sauce, which might be what you're thinking of when
you think of American barbecue sauce more generally speaking, So
that might affect how you feel about this half mari
(27:18):
and EA half barbecue sauce recipe.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Indeed it might. But let us know opinions we love
Oh yeah, oh yeah, huh. Yes, the restaurant Colettas claims
to be the creators of Memphis style pizza around the
same time, which, yes, pizza with barbecued pork on top.
The popular legend behind this is that the owner was
(27:44):
looking to sell more pizza, which was unfamiliar to some
city at the time, by topping it with barbecue, which
he knew. People knew what, they know what that is
the name of it, so let's put it on there.
Elvis Presley was a huge fan. I kind of love
this because it feels so looking back now, it's like, oh,
they didn't know, they weren't familiar with pizza. Yeah, not pizza,
(28:07):
but barbecue on it. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I
get it. I mean, oh sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
No, we've talked about the history of pizza and it's
relatively new to the States.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Let's just put
a barbecue on it. I couldn't get to the bottom
of wind exactly, but Memphis style barbecue bologny became a
popular item in Memphis two possibly around this time. Yeah.
From a cursory search.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I think smoked boloney rose to fame in Oklahoma, possibly
as like a steakhouse side dish in the nineteen seventies.
But you know, like at a certain point it just
makes sense. Like if one has a tube of bolooney
and one has a barbecue, one might smoke boloney. It's
(28:59):
typically like scored and smoked and then served sliced. Sometimes
the slices are grilled, sometimes on a sandwich.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That feels like a wisdom need to get printed on
a business card. One has a tube of bologney, one
might smoke it. One might smoke it. Indeed, well, listeners,
let us know I loved finding all these dishes I
had never heard about personally. Yeah, yeah, all right, So
(29:31):
this brings us to a restaurant we've already mentioned a
couple times. Charlie Vergos founded the restaurant The Rendezvous in
Memphis in nineteen forty eight, at first primarily serving sandwiches.
The story goes that he started selling dry rub ribs
in nineteen sixty four after he found an old coal
shoot in the building and decided to convert it into
(29:54):
a charcoal pit for barbecue. Yeah, at first, he had
intended to smoke meats or sandwiches, sell them for cheap,
and then make money off beer. But it just wasn't
cutting it, the beer was not cutting it, so an
employee of his suggested that he tries selling ribs and
taught him how to cook them. At the time, ribs
(30:15):
were a cheaper cut of pork. Virgos went on to
develop a dry rib spice rub that then went on
to become hugely popular. The spice mixture was inspired by
Greek spice mixes passed down in his family, with the
addition of paprika for color.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, he'd apparently run into paprika, chili powder, and cayenne
being used in Cajun cuisine in New Orleans and kind of, yeah,
just sort of.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Added those in. He was like, oh, that's great, let's
do it. Yeah, And he's been interviewed a lot because
this place pretty famous in the history of Memphis barbecue.
But he credited black folks with the method of how
he cooked the meat. In a nineteen eighty nine interview
with Memphis newspaper The Commercial Appeal, you're counted observing black
(31:04):
families in Memphis cooking meat over hot coals in their yards,
positing black people invented barbecue. Some people label this whole
thing as the birth of Memphis style dry rub ribs.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And Interestingly, this is not a low and slow barbecue
style of cooking. It's more of a chargrill like. It
only takes about an hour and a half to do
the Rendezvous ribs versus about three to four hours for
like a low and slow rib recipe. Rendezvous also does
(31:39):
not use wood. They only use charcoal. They do use
wood smoke for other cuts. But anyway, Yeah, it's interesting.
And again, as I said at the top, they don't
actually dry rub the ribs before they cook them.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
They use a vinegar mop. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of ways,
very different than a lot of the other dry breath
rig situations. Yeah. Post World War Two, rib sandwiches with
three to four small ribs served between slices of bread
with sauce and slaw were all the rage in Memphis.
(32:15):
And these sandwiches were meant to be pulled apart by
your fingers. They were kind of meant to be a
whole messy experience. Downtown Memphis took a pretty big hit
during the sixties with what was called urban renewal. Several
places were demolished, are relocated, and several barbecue joints closed.
The Rendezvous dodged closure after moving a block over Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
The city was also a center of the civil rights
movement in the nineteen sixties, including a bunch of important
strikes and the eventual assassination of Martin Luther King Junior.
Through the nineteen sixties and into the seventies, desegregation and
then suburbanization including a lot of white flight and the
(33:00):
aforementioned urban renewal, including like interstate highways being built right
through established neighborhoods, just really wrecked established communities.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, it really did. But in the face of this,
several well known restaurants opened in the seventies, like Cozy Corner,
Pains Barbecue, and Interstate Barbecue, for instance. And I know
people from Memphis are probably like, ah, yes, I know those.
(33:33):
Memphis's World Championship Barbecue Cooking contest launched with twenty sixteens
in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, And there has been an urban revitalization since then,
including a revival and or continuation of barbecue traditions, with
popular local chains like an R Barbecue and Quirky's both
opening in the eighties. Quirky's has since expanded into frozen dinners.
Might have seen that at your local grocery store, not
(34:03):
the chains like these are like the be all and
all of Memphis barbecue, Like a lot of draw still
goes to smaller joints and stands.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, all right, look, okay, Kansas City Barbecue is another episode. Yes,
I want to make that clear, but I feel like
we have to mention this fellow named Henry Perry is
often credited with launching Kansas City style barbecue. He is
(34:34):
sometimes called the father of Kansas City barbecue. He got
his start selling smoked meats in Kansas City in nineteen
oh eight from a small stand that eventually turned into
a decent sized restaurant. He trained Charlie Bryant, who in
turn trained his brother Arthur Bryant. Big names in the
lexicon of Kansas City barbecue history, and then it sort
(34:55):
of blossomed into its own thing from there. But Perry
was from Memphis, so do not at me. That's just
the way it is often presented in sources from Memphis. Oh,
I was so concerned about this. I went to sources
(35:16):
from Kansas City to see, like is this legit? Like
what's going on? And it's hilarious how differently the two
cities have depicted the whole thing. Wow, including and this
could be true. I'm not saying this is false, but
a lot of the things from Kansas City were like
(35:38):
he was from somewhere in Tennessee. They never say Memphis. No, no, no,
no no, and a lot of like they'll say like
Shelby County. And then I was like that Memphis'mphis is
in Shelby County. Yeah, but I mean maybe he's not.
I don't know. It just cracked me up how much
(36:00):
they went out of their way not to say Memphis.
That's really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean, I mean, I will say that that you know,
if he started out in nineteen oh eight, that's a
good couple decades before, like especially the kind of bigger
places started getting rolling in Memphis.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
So that's that's but I don't know, I don't know
that will be a future US problem. Yep, that's not
for me today. Nope, no, nope. And yeah, that's I
guess that's kind of what we have to.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Say about Memphis style barbecue. Although I will say that, like,
there is a lot of written and oral lore about
all this out there, if you're curious. Back in twenty fourteen,
local journalist Craig David Meek published a book called Memphis Barbecue,
A Succulent History of Smoke, Sauce, and Soul. I've not
(37:01):
read the whole thing, but the excerpts that I've.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Read are excellent. Yeah, a lot more, a lot more
out there. Oh, absolutely, there's a lot. People are passionate
about it. We love that. Oh yeah, and they have
really written about it. And I've appreciated in a lot
of the reading I did how supportive some of these
restaurants were. Let's remember this history and let's make.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Sure yeah that we mentioned Yeah, I always love that.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So this has been a fun, if frightening. Please listeners
write in, Oh please please, if.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
You have personal experiences, if you have strong opinions, we
want to hear them.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yes, if you've been at any of these restaurants. Oh yeah, yeah, okay,
But that is what we have to say about Memphis
style barbecue for now.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It is. We do already have some listening mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that after we
take one more quick break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And
we're back with Oh the moment before you eat a
barbecue plate, it's opportunity just awaiting you. Yeah, deliciousness and
(38:36):
then being uncomfortably full probably probably yeah, why not? But
it was worth it, you know. Yes? So okay, Listener
Ruth is back. Listener Ruth is our food parody songwriter
and everything has been excellent, including this one. Uh so.
(38:58):
This was in response to a message we read about
Canon Beer and our Listener mail episode. It is set
to the tune of a Lime in the Coconut m
Once again, I will not be singing it, but I
will say it. And what I hope is you get
the vibe and rhythmic vibe. Yeah, yes, all right, here
(39:21):
we go. You put the cheese in the pita and
you toast it all up. And put the cheese in
the pita and you toast it all up. It's in
the mail bag. It's in the mail bag, she said.
You put the cheese in the pita and toast it
all up. Put the cheese in the pita and you
(39:42):
toast it all up. Sound, et cetera. Excellent. You have
so many great ideas. You need to release the album.
I don't know the legalities of things, but yeah, yeah,
(40:05):
me me neither.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I mean, if it falls under parity I think it
falls under parody.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I think so. I think so. I mean, don't stress
yourself out. But no, no, you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We do I and I'm only getting more and more
ideas if we ever do a live live episode, horrifying,
embarrassing ideas, great, the best, Lenny, and I hope that
(40:39):
I'm saying your name correctly. Let me know if I'm not.
Lenny wrote Longtime Listener. From the very start as food
stuff first time writer, you asked about recipes for pasta salads,
and somehow a lot of them contained mayo. I would
never base my pasta salad on mayo. I usually add
pesto as the dressing element. In general, I have two
(41:00):
go to recipes for pasta salad, one that is kid
friendly and one that's usually more for grown ups. Both
can be served cold or warm, depending on when the
pasta is boiled. In relation to serving so kid friendly
boiled pasta of choice, whatever vegetables you like, like peas, corn,
sliced tomatoes, diced cucumber, at a mammee, diced bell peppers,
et cetera. Some kind of protein like diced ham, chopped
(41:22):
up fried chicken, diced cheese, green pesto, usually basil, and
then more for grownups. Boiled pasta of choice have cherry tomatoes,
garlic cloves, pickled, and chili oil, sliced black olives, diced cherriso,
slightly cooked to a crisp and red pesto. Also who
needs measurements to make pasta salad?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
This is what I'm learning through all that research, and
then the following listener mails that's what I have. One
thing I've learned, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
You know. It's like, obviously, you don't use a recipe.
You just put stuff together until it's tough and then
you eat it. Yeah, yeah, which I which I appreciate absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Chopped up fried chicken in a pasta salad, also pesto.
In general, I am reevaluating a lot of things that
I said about pasta salad right now.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, this is plus garlic clothes, pickled and chili oil,
which I know give you a oh don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
I think it's spicy chili oil, so I think it's fine.
Oh the garlic clothes though.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Heck, the garlic I feel because you're a vampire, I
don't I feel like I shouldn't have to remind you
of this, but you shouldn't. That was great.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
That was I was so focused on the chili oil
part that I entirely forgot that I shouldn't eat garlic.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It sounds so good, though, Oh my heck, it does
it does. This is one of those things again where
I just every now and then when we are doing
an episode like Memphis Style barbecue or pasta salad, I
just I feel bad for you, Lauren, because I know
the task of explaining it. It's a difficult one. And
(43:07):
the more and more I hear from you listeners about
pasta salad, the more and more I'm like, this could
be anything. Almost. Oh yeah, yep, oh sounds so good.
The world is your pasta slid ada in what you want?
It does sound good, And thank you listeners for sending
(43:27):
these in and please keep it, please keep it going. Yes, yes, yes.
In the meantime, thanks to both of these listeners for
writing to us. If you would like to write to us,
you can our emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do
hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots of more good things are
(44:01):
coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to Saber Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie Reese.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode
for you about Memphis style barbecue.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Who m yeah, that's how I feel. What an endeavor?
Yep yep.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
First, this one really made me miss travel for this show,
because I would have loved to have gone to all
of these places, experienced them for ourselves, and also talked
to the humans because I strongly believe that them saying
(00:48):
it would be more entertaining than us saying it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Oh yeah, I absolutely think so strong opinions. I mean, oh,
we knew anytime barbecue.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, of course, this is part of why we haven't
done more episodes on barbecue.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Also, like, I.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Don't know about you any but like I am not
a Memphis style expert. Nope, I have not been to Memphis. Okay,
all right, so yeah, so please do let us know
if we're wrong about anything. But also please do hold
(01:29):
for the end of the episode because we're offering a
number of caveats as we.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Go A numbers. Yeah, correct, Well, I believe I know
the answer, but I shall ask, was there any particular
reason this was on your mind? Lauren.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, yeah, so we just had the Fourth of July
holiday here in these United States that we are currently
living in. And you know, there are some real weird
things going on in the US right now, some perhaps
(02:10):
reasons to not celebrate, but you know, we are still
a union of people with incredibly differing opinions about barbecue.
And you know what is more American than that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Truth? And I hope you listeners will write in with
some of your opinions after this episode. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, strong opinions always welcome. And yeah,
I don't know why I started in Memphis. I guess
I was like looking at the sauces and felt like
this was a good place to start from a sauce perspective.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
A lot of consideration went into this. It's very frightening
to step into this arena. I must, it really is.
We're gonna face it bravely, this this pit if you will. Yeah, ah, yes,
So for past episodes, we have touched on this before
we did an Ashville episode about barbecue.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah. The two main Ashville barbecue related episodes are one
about comfort food and nostalgia. It's called Nostalgia comfort Food
in Carolina barbecue. And then there's a bonus episode that's
like mostly an interview that's called Taking Cues from a
pit Master.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So yeah, yes, so those molasses, cole saw potato, salad,
mac and cheese, the interview we did with Howard Conyers.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah, any, any and all of those. Sure, probably
a lot of other things too, but I think those
are some of the most relevant. Sure, all right, let
us bite the bullet.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Okay, I guess this to our question, Memphis style barbecue,
what is it?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, Memphis style barbecue is a set of ingredients and
processes and traditions around smoking and serving proteins that developed
in Memphis, Tennessee. The typical protein is pork, specifically the
pork shoulder and the pork ribs. Both are often given
(04:39):
a dry rub before cooking. And this dry rub is
complex and every cook respectfully referred to here as a pitmaster,
is going to have their own blend. But you can
expect a base of salt, paprika, chili powder, maybe brown sugar,
along with other things like cayenne pepper, black pepper, garlic,
and onion, mustard and celery seed, all in powder form
(05:01):
because again, dry rub. Yeah, the proteins are again sometimes
rubbed with this seasoning mix and then usually smoked low
and slow over charcoal and smoldering hardwood, typically hickory, which
cooks the meat and also infuses it with like smoky
woodsy flavors. These proteins are typically cooked until they're tender,
(05:23):
but not like completely meltingly soft. Both will have a
little bit of a chew to them, like the ribs
won't fall off the bone when you pick them up.
The shoulder will be served pulled, that is, shredded, sometimes chopped,
sometimes as is on a plate with sides, and sometimes
on a sandwich with toppings like Memphis style barbecue sauce
and coal slaw. The ribs will be served either dry
(05:45):
like as is, or wet, meaning slathered in that barbecue sauce.
The saucing question is a tomato based sauce made with
a base of tomato pure and or ketchup molasses and
or brown sugar plus vinegar, and that's going to be
seasoned with things like onion, garlic, mustard, cayenne, pepper, worst
shear and hot sauce, which results in like a reddish
(06:08):
brown sauce that's mid thin and like tangy, spicy sweet.
Sometimes the pit master will baste the ribs with the
sauce during cooking so that it kind of like caramelizes
into the meat. So okay, So the proteins are like
just so savory and smoky and a little bit spicy sweet,
and the sauce will just amp that, although some purists
(06:32):
will tell you that the dry ribs are best with.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
The sauce on the side.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Side Dishes to coordinate with all those flavors and to
make a meal may include that colesla again, stewed greens,
corn on the cob, mac and cheese, potato salad, French fries, hushpuppies,
and or corn bread. So it's all kind of messy
and indulgent and so satisfying, Like barbecue is just beautiful.
(07:03):
It is Memphis on a plate.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And Memphis, you are delicious. Oh I need to go
so badly.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Also, I think that was the longest what is it
that I've ever written for the show. It's a lot,
if not the longest, quite long, like like right up there,
top top three. And even within all of this fairly
specific set of guidelines that I've just laid out, there
(07:36):
is of course room for argument, like the exact cut
of meats that you use are a matter of preference.
For the ribs you're talking about baby backs versus spare ribs.
Babybacks being from like the top of the rib cage,
they can be more tender and flavorful. Spares are longer
and less meaty, so you get like a different texture
(07:57):
from the finished rib. Baby bags can further come with
the rib tip cut off. That's another argument for pulled pork.
You can use the Boston butt, which is like the
top of the shoulder.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It has less.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Fat and bone in it, or you can go with
the picnic shoulder, which is the lower part with more
fat and bone in and it's usually butchered with a
skin on, which can help with moisture but also prevent
smoke penetration. I cannot tell you what to do. No, No,
whatever cut you're using, what do you smoke it over?
All wood wood plus charcoal, all charcoal, lump charcoal or briquettes?
(08:34):
What kind of wood like? Is hickory necessary? Or can
you toss some apple or peachwood on there? I don't
know what temperature do you go? For a lot of
recipes say low and slow, but one of the original
Memphis rib joints, Rendezvous cooks some hotter and faster using
this like vinegar based mop sauce during cooking, a type
of basting sauce to maintain moisture. MOP sauce might be
(08:57):
seasoned with some or all of the ingredients that you
in your dry rub. In this cooking style, you don't
use the dry rub as a rub, but rather dust
your finished ribs with it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I'm overwhelmed already. H But wait, there's more.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
More. Generally speaking, dry versus wet is a really big deal. Also, Okay, So,
like in the rub, sugar and how much sugar is controversial,
and then let's talk about the sauce in the sauce.
Your ratio of tomato to vinegar is a strong preference
that people have, though the other ingredients tend to remain
(09:36):
like basically the same. I say basically because I've seen
all kinds of different ingredients. In addition to the sort
of basics that I listed above, I've seen like rosemary, thyme,
a regino, celery, salt, ginger, cuman, coriander, allspice.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I found a really funny It was a co read
where someone was claiming no one dry rib dry rub
ribs are a myth what, and that they don't exist
in Memphis and that there's like only one place that
does it. Wow everywhere else, no one else does it.
(10:18):
And everyone was chiming in like I've gotten them here here,
but it just cracked me up. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
No, I read a lot of menus in preparing for
this episode, and I can guarantee, I mean, unless the
menus are lying.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
A trick.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I I guess it's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We we haven't been there. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Also,
like we have to talk about the coleslaw.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We did talk in our Coalsla episode about different recipes
basically like creamy versus non creamy. Memphis has virgins of both,
one creamy and sweetened. One tends to be non creamy
and sharper with like mustard and bandeger. Other sides are
a side quest. I can't this episode is already long, yep.
(11:16):
But Fishionados talk about the bark of the ribs. By bark,
I mean that the outer crust that develops as the
surface dries out during cooking, which is not unmitigated. Recipes
that I've seen call for spritzing the ribs with water
every half hour or so, and or using a mop
sauce and or doing a sort of baste with butter
(11:38):
towards the end of cooking. Memphis pit masters do also
cook other proteins. You can often find chicken on the
bone and or pulled beef.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Brisket.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Sausages, and sandwiches and plates are not all that you
can do with Memphis style barbecue. One popular way of
using the pulled pork is in barbecue spaghetti, which is
a dish made by cooking down like a tomato based
pasta sauce including I mean, you know, like whatever you
want to put in a tomato based pasta sauce, like onions, garlic,
bell pepper, italiany herbs like oregano, and basil. Cook that
(12:13):
down along with like a lot of Memphis barbecue sauce,
and then add in pulled pork to kind of like
stud the sauce with the way that you would like
ground beef or whatever. Yeah, served on top a spaghetti.
Pulled pork is also a topping on pizza. I read
a lot about rib tip fried rice.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
YEP, A lot of it's found its way into a
lot of things, for sure. M hm, for sure. Well
what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
When we're talking about a lot of different things here,
that's I watch your portion sizes, drink water, eat a
vegetable that has not been cooked with pork at some point.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
At some point.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah yeah, maybe not today.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, maybe not with your barbecue dish. Yeah, okay, Well
we do have some numbers for you, okay, yeah we do.
Uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So there are around one hundred barbecue restaurants in Memphis,
like in and around Memphis, and I mean by that
barbecue focused restaurants, not including places that like happen to
serve one barbecue dish, which seems like a lot for
a city, does seem like a lot, but like a delicious,
(13:33):
amazing a lot, happy, happy about it.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Every year, during the month long Memphis in May festival,
there is a four day World Championship barbecue cooking contest,
sometimes called the Super Bowl of Swine all right. In
twenty twenty five, it was in its forty seventh year
and over one hundred and teams participated. It had categories
(14:03):
for ribs, shoulder, whole hog, other meats, junior's contests for
kids nine to seventeen years of age, and then categories
for sauces, tomato, mustard, and vinegar based the best booth,
the best T shirt, and Miss Piggy Idol, which is
like a team music and or dance competition that seems
(14:26):
to feature like a lot of men in drag with
pig costume elements. All right, I think there's also barbecue
sauce wrestling.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Okay, seems like a pain to clean, but sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Also I feel like there's a number of elements, both
the sugar and the vinegar. I don't know anyway. Not judging,
just saying if you are not participating or judging in
any of this, like like official judging, not like judgment judge.
I mean, you know you can judge all the time,
judge all you want, but if you're not officially judging.
There are many food vendors at this festival and folks
(15:06):
selling their rubs and their sauces, plus live music and
cooking demos. This festival does have a serious economic impact
on the city. As of twenty seventeen, it drew nearly
sixty four thousand people, about half of whom were from
out of town, and generated thirty seven point seven million
dollars workers earned seven million bucks during it, it raised
(15:28):
like a million bucks in tax revenue. Attendance has dropped
since twenty seventeen, but it is still really huge.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Wow. People love barbecue. They do they do.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
They love it so much that there is in fact
a second barbecue competition basically at the same time in Memphis,
called the Smoke Slam. It was only in its second
year as of twenty twenty five. All right, m I
will say that at both of these events the teams
(16:07):
have some pretty rad names, like a Porkalypse now the
parent head Porkers of Hagaritaville, Snoutcast, Game of Bones, brown Chicken,
brown Cow, and the Procrastinators.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Excellent. Yeah it's just a sampling. Yeah, Snoutcast got me
as an at alien. Yes, thank you. Snoutcast spelled the
quet Yeah all right.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
At Memphis barbecue joints, the rub and the sauce recipes
are serious secrets. Perhaps obviously at one the barbecue Shop,
only four people have known the sauce recipe in seventy
some years of service.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
But some of these places do ship around the US
and beyond. The aforementioned Rendezvous has a whole kitchen set
up for distribution and they're smoking oven for pork shoulders
can hold two hundred and forty pork shoulders at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Oh wow, yep, yep, wow. You know this does bring
back memories because part of the reason this show exists
it is because when we went to Austin, Lauren and
I went in on a bunch of food adventures, but
barbecue was a big part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Absolutely, But I remember looking into can I get this
stuff shipped? And it was so expensive. I don't know
what the deal is at. Oh that's another don't yell
at me. I know that's a separate thing.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Sure, sure, but yes, yeah, but uh so, how did
we get to hear? An excellent question, and we do
have a lot of history for you, which we will
get into as soon as we get back from a
quick break. For a word from our sponsors, and we're back,
(18:25):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Okay. So the history of roasting meat is ancient. It's
part of the reason these episodes are so daunting. Yeah,
but yes, it's ancient. When discussing American barbecue history, in particular,
Indigenous folks for roasting meat low and slow, long before
European colonization. This way of cooking worked for several reasons.
(18:51):
It didn't burn the meat or the wood, and provided
flavor and tenderness to the meat.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Specifically, when the Spanish arrived in the Caribbean in like
the late fourteen hundreds, they observed the local Tino people
roasting meat on these wooden frames over fires like vertical
posts with a kind of rack or grill dare I
say on top? And the tiny word for this frame
was a barrabku or bbque or similar like I've seen
(19:22):
it written a few different ways.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
The Spanish started calling this style of cooking barbicoa, and
they took it with them as they traveled farther up
into the Americas, into what's now the southern United States.
They modified it as they went, moving away from the
shallow pit that they witnessed towards deep pit barbecue, higher heat,
and faster. There are also several early accounts of Europeans
(19:50):
describing how this meat was seasoned or basted with a
type of early hot sauce uh okay. The first known
reference to barbecue sauce was from an eighteen seventy one
Tennessee publication, but there had been plenty of other references
and recipes for things like a sauce for barbecues. Most
(20:13):
of these early sauces were butter and vinegar seasoned with
salt pepper, which sounds good. I'm into it. Oh yeah.
A lot of pitmasters r cagey about what spices things.
But we do know that enslaved Africans also influenced methods
and taste of American barbecue styles. For centuries in America,
(20:34):
they were doing the cooking, seasoning, prepping, serving, and after
emancipation they had these skills that were desired. The various
styles that developed and seasonings used were impacted by pockets
of immigrants too, so a large German population, for instance,
led to some places creating a mustard based sauce. However,
(20:57):
the story is slightly different when it comes to Memphis.
There are a couple of reasons that barbecue took off
in Memphis the way that it did. One is location
and the fact that it's a port city located on
the Mississippi River that meant access to, amongst other things,
a variety of spices, hardwood, barrels of molasses, tomatoes, all
(21:22):
of which ended up in this style of barbecue. In
one way or another. Molasses was cheaper than refined sugar
at the time, so it became the sweetener of choice
for a while. It ended up in all kinds of things,
including in a variety of marinades and sauces for meat.
Vinegar was readily available in the South at this time too.
(21:44):
When it comes to the strong emphasis on pork in
Memphis style barbecue, ever since the Spanish brought pork to
the Southern US and the fifteen hundreds, pork was a
staple of the Southern barbecue seam. They were plentiful. For one,
pigs were generally cheaper than cows in terms of maintenance
in farming Texas barbecue separate conversation. But in terms of
(22:07):
Memphis yep, yep, uh huh, they didn't really need land
to graze like cows did. For instance, farmers sometimes released
the pigs into the wild so that they could feed themselves,
only to catch them later. If there wasn't enough food
to feed the pigs and the meat was tough after
they were slaughtered because they were thin, farmers would often
(22:27):
turn to low and slow styles of cooking. Some sources
suggest that over time, pigs became a source of Southern
pride and neighborhoods, and even politicians would host barbecues after
slaughtering pigs. It was a really communal affair. Over time,
as the South urbanized and shifted away from agriculture to
(22:51):
some extent, people relied less on raising and slaughtering their
own pigs, but could instead buy pork at grocery stores.
This led to a prolific of restaurants taking over the
task of barbecue because it was an intensive task. Often
these restaurants were small, sometimes even just shacks open only
(23:11):
on weekends because they were run by farmers who had
all this other stuff to do and the process took
so long. The nineteen tens is when we first start
seeing commercial barbecue sauces in the US. By the nineteen twenties,
numerous barbecue restaurants started opening in Memphis, a lot of
them still quite small. Pitmasters experimented with spice rubs, typically
(23:35):
on various cuts of pork, and spices to add into
the sauces offered for the meat as well. Molasses was
often added as a sweetener or sometimes brown sugar. People
enjoyed the style of barbecue for lunch and on late
nights out listening to music or what have you. It
was a very popular We're going out, let's get barbecue.
(23:57):
Yeah yeah, and this was a t I'm of a
lot of change for Memphis. The population of black people
in the city increased from three thy eight hundred during
Civil War times to over fifty thousand at the dawn
of the twentieth century. It also became a place people
visited on weekends and a hub for musicians. This meant
people wanted food and they wanted entertainment. A lot of
(24:20):
these places had jukeboxes or dance floors, live music, they
sold alcohol, or they had quick pickups so people could
find their own entertainment and eat their food there. Many
of these restaurants, even if employing black folks, though, were
segregated in one way or another. The food, however, was
(24:41):
beloved and often viewed as something people of all classes
had opinions on. And people had their favorite haunts and
just so specific on when to go and how it
was working there. So let's get into some of the
big names. Yeah yeah, oh my, I will start with
(25:02):
John H. Mills. John H. Mills opened a barbecue joint
in the late nineteen twenties that went on to specialize
in pork ribs and shoulder. He took them over a
brick pit located outside, basing them periodically with a peppery
hot sauce. According to an AP report from nineteen thirty eight,
his restaurant was beloved and it was a pit stop
(25:23):
for celebrities in the area. He pioneered shipping barbecue by mail. However,
the restaurant closed in the nineteen fifties. From what I read,
most of his family was like, this is too much
work to run it. I don't want to do it.
Oh well, fair enough, fair enough. Also in nineteen thirty eight,
(25:43):
a man named James Willis started working as pitmaster at
Memphis's Leonard's Barbecue, which is founded in nineteen twenty two.
He allegedly invented the Memphis style sandwhich, though some sources
indicate that term or something very similar to this sandwich
was being sold long before he started working there.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, and that's the one with the sauce and also
the coals law on it. And supposedly the way that
this came about is that the kitchen was like running
low on pork one day, but they still had a
lot of orders coming in and so they just like
added slaw to the sandwiches to fill them out and
it stuck.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yes, As is often, story makes sense, it makes sense.
Leonards was also offering barbecue spaghetti by the nineteen fifties,
which yes, is essentially spaghetti topped with barbecued pulled pork
half moonera and half barbecue saus I'd never heard of this,
but I'm into it. From what I understand, this is
(26:42):
a Memphis specialty, and a lot of other places started
offering it. From what I also understand, they were not
the originator of it, but they popularized it. I couldn't
find the originator, but I think it had been around previously.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, and I will say out load in case I
didn't make it clear early. Your Memphis style sauce is
typically thinner and less sweet than like a Kansas City
style sauce, which might be what you're thinking of when
you think of American barbecue sauce more generally speaking, So
that might affect how you feel about this half mari
(27:18):
and EA half barbecue sauce recipe.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Indeed it might. But let us know opinions we love
Oh yeah, oh yeah, huh. Yes, the restaurant Colettas claims
to be the creators of Memphis style pizza around the
same time, which, yes, pizza with barbecued pork on top.
The popular legend behind this is that the owner was
(27:44):
looking to sell more pizza, which was unfamiliar to some
city at the time, by topping it with barbecue, which
he knew. People knew what, they know what that is
the name of it, so let's put it on there.
Elvis Presley was a huge fan. I kind of love
this because it feels so looking back now, it's like, oh,
they didn't know, they weren't familiar with pizza. Yeah, not pizza,
(28:07):
but barbecue on it. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I
get it. I mean, oh sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
No, we've talked about the history of pizza and it's
relatively new to the States.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
But yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Let's just put
a barbecue on it. I couldn't get to the bottom
of wind exactly, but Memphis style barbecue bologny became a
popular item in Memphis two possibly around this time. Yeah.
From a cursory search.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I think smoked boloney rose to fame in Oklahoma, possibly
as like a steakhouse side dish in the nineteen seventies.
But you know, like at a certain point it just
makes sense. Like if one has a tube of bolooney
and one has a barbecue, one might smoke boloney. It's
(28:59):
typically like scored and smoked and then served sliced. Sometimes
the slices are grilled, sometimes on a sandwich.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That feels like a wisdom need to get printed on
a business card. One has a tube of bologney, one
might smoke it. One might smoke it. Indeed, well, listeners,
let us know I loved finding all these dishes I
had never heard about personally. Yeah, yeah, all right, So
(29:31):
this brings us to a restaurant we've already mentioned a
couple times. Charlie Vergos founded the restaurant The Rendezvous in
Memphis in nineteen forty eight, at first primarily serving sandwiches.
The story goes that he started selling dry rub ribs
in nineteen sixty four after he found an old coal
shoot in the building and decided to convert it into
(29:54):
a charcoal pit for barbecue. Yeah, at first, he had
intended to smoke meats or sandwiches, sell them for cheap,
and then make money off beer. But it just wasn't
cutting it, the beer was not cutting it, so an
employee of his suggested that he tries selling ribs and
taught him how to cook them. At the time, ribs
(30:15):
were a cheaper cut of pork. Virgos went on to
develop a dry rib spice rub that then went on
to become hugely popular. The spice mixture was inspired by
Greek spice mixes passed down in his family, with the
addition of paprika for color.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, he'd apparently run into paprika, chili powder, and cayenne
being used in Cajun cuisine in New Orleans and kind of, yeah,
just sort of.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Added those in. He was like, oh, that's great, let's
do it. Yeah, And he's been interviewed a lot because
this place pretty famous in the history of Memphis barbecue.
But he credited black folks with the method of how
he cooked the meat. In a nineteen eighty nine interview
with Memphis newspaper The Commercial Appeal, you're counted observing black
(31:04):
families in Memphis cooking meat over hot coals in their yards,
positing black people invented barbecue. Some people label this whole
thing as the birth of Memphis style dry rub ribs.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
And Interestingly, this is not a low and slow barbecue
style of cooking. It's more of a chargrill like. It
only takes about an hour and a half to do
the Rendezvous ribs versus about three to four hours for
like a low and slow rib recipe. Rendezvous also does
(31:39):
not use wood. They only use charcoal. They do use
wood smoke for other cuts. But anyway, Yeah, it's interesting.
And again, as I said at the top, they don't
actually dry rub the ribs before they cook them.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
They use a vinegar mop. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of ways,
very different than a lot of the other dry breath
rig situations. Yeah. Post World War Two, rib sandwiches with
three to four small ribs served between slices of bread
with sauce and slaw were all the rage in Memphis.
(32:15):
And these sandwiches were meant to be pulled apart by
your fingers. They were kind of meant to be a
whole messy experience. Downtown Memphis took a pretty big hit
during the sixties with what was called urban renewal. Several
places were demolished, are relocated, and several barbecue joints closed.
The Rendezvous dodged closure after moving a block over Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
The city was also a center of the civil rights
movement in the nineteen sixties, including a bunch of important
strikes and the eventual assassination of Martin Luther King Junior.
Through the nineteen sixties and into the seventies, desegregation and
then suburbanization including a lot of white flight and the
(33:00):
aforementioned urban renewal, including like interstate highways being built right
through established neighborhoods, just really wrecked established communities.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah, it really did. But in the face of this,
several well known restaurants opened in the seventies, like Cozy Corner,
Pains Barbecue, and Interstate Barbecue, for instance. And I know
people from Memphis are probably like, ah, yes, I know those.
(33:33):
Memphis's World Championship Barbecue Cooking contest launched with twenty sixteens
in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, And there has been an urban revitalization since then,
including a revival and or continuation of barbecue traditions, with
popular local chains like an R Barbecue and Quirky's both
opening in the eighties. Quirky's has since expanded into frozen dinners.
Might have seen that at your local grocery store, not
(34:03):
the chains like these are like the be all and
all of Memphis barbecue, Like a lot of draw still
goes to smaller joints and stands.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, all right, look, okay, Kansas City Barbecue is another episode. Yes,
I want to make that clear, but I feel like
we have to mention this fellow named Henry Perry is
often credited with launching Kansas City style barbecue. He is
(34:34):
sometimes called the father of Kansas City barbecue. He got
his start selling smoked meats in Kansas City in nineteen
oh eight from a small stand that eventually turned into
a decent sized restaurant. He trained Charlie Bryant, who in
turn trained his brother Arthur Bryant. Big names in the
lexicon of Kansas City barbecue history, and then it sort
(34:55):
of blossomed into its own thing from there. But Perry
was from Memphis, so do not at me. That's just
the way it is often presented in sources from Memphis. Oh,
I was so concerned about this. I went to sources
(35:16):
from Kansas City to see, like is this legit? Like
what's going on? And it's hilarious how differently the two
cities have depicted the whole thing. Wow, including and this
could be true. I'm not saying this is false, but
a lot of the things from Kansas City were like
(35:38):
he was from somewhere in Tennessee. They never say Memphis. No, no, no,
no no, and a lot of like they'll say like
Shelby County. And then I was like that Memphis'mphis is
in Shelby County. Yeah, but I mean maybe he's not.
I don't know. It just cracked me up how much
(36:00):
they went out of their way not to say Memphis.
That's really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean, I mean, I will say that that you know,
if he started out in nineteen oh eight, that's a
good couple decades before, like especially the kind of bigger
places started getting rolling in Memphis.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
So that's that's but I don't know, I don't know
that will be a future US problem. Yep, that's not
for me today. Nope, no, nope. And yeah, that's I
guess that's kind of what we have to.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Say about Memphis style barbecue. Although I will say that, like,
there is a lot of written and oral lore about
all this out there, if you're curious. Back in twenty fourteen,
local journalist Craig David Meek published a book called Memphis Barbecue,
A Succulent History of Smoke, Sauce, and Soul. I've not
(37:01):
read the whole thing, but the excerpts that I've.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Read are excellent. Yeah, a lot more, a lot more
out there. Oh, absolutely, there's a lot. People are passionate
about it. We love that. Oh yeah, and they have
really written about it. And I've appreciated in a lot
of the reading I did how supportive some of these
restaurants were. Let's remember this history and let's make.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Sure yeah that we mentioned Yeah, I always love that.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So this has been a fun, if frightening. Please listeners
write in, Oh please please, if.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
You have personal experiences, if you have strong opinions, we
want to hear them.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yes, if you've been at any of these restaurants. Oh yeah, yeah, okay,
But that is what we have to say about Memphis
style barbecue for now.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
It is. We do already have some listening mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that after we
take one more quick break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And
we're back with Oh the moment before you eat a
barbecue plate, it's opportunity just awaiting you. Yeah, deliciousness and
(38:36):
then being uncomfortably full probably probably yeah, why not? But
it was worth it, you know. Yes? So okay, Listener
Ruth is back. Listener Ruth is our food parody songwriter
and everything has been excellent, including this one. Uh so.
(38:58):
This was in response to a message we read about
Canon Beer and our Listener mail episode. It is set
to the tune of a Lime in the Coconut m
Once again, I will not be singing it, but I
will say it. And what I hope is you get
the vibe and rhythmic vibe. Yeah, yes, all right, here
(39:21):
we go. You put the cheese in the pita and
you toast it all up. And put the cheese in
the pita and you toast it all up. It's in
the mail bag. It's in the mail bag, she said.
You put the cheese in the pita and toast it
all up. Put the cheese in the pita and you
(39:42):
toast it all up. Sound, et cetera. Excellent. You have
so many great ideas. You need to release the album.
I don't know the legalities of things, but yeah, yeah,
(40:05):
me me neither.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I mean, if it falls under parity I think it
falls under parody.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
I think so. I think so. I mean, don't stress
yourself out. But no, no, you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
We do I and I'm only getting more and more
ideas if we ever do a live live episode, horrifying,
embarrassing ideas, great, the best, Lenny, and I hope that
(40:39):
I'm saying your name correctly. Let me know if I'm not.
Lenny wrote Longtime Listener. From the very start as food
stuff first time writer, you asked about recipes for pasta salads,
and somehow a lot of them contained mayo. I would
never base my pasta salad on mayo. I usually add
pesto as the dressing element. In general, I have two
(41:00):
go to recipes for pasta salad, one that is kid
friendly and one that's usually more for grown ups. Both
can be served cold or warm, depending on when the
pasta is boiled. In relation to serving so kid friendly
boiled pasta of choice, whatever vegetables you like, like peas, corn,
sliced tomatoes, diced cucumber, at a mammee, diced bell peppers,
et cetera. Some kind of protein like diced ham, chopped
(41:22):
up fried chicken, diced cheese, green pesto, usually basil, and
then more for grownups. Boiled pasta of choice have cherry tomatoes,
garlic cloves, pickled, and chili oil, sliced black olives, diced cherriso,
slightly cooked to a crisp and red pesto. Also who
needs measurements to make pasta salad?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
This is what I'm learning through all that research, and
then the following listener mails that's what I have. One
thing I've learned, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
You know. It's like, obviously, you don't use a recipe.
You just put stuff together until it's tough and then
you eat it. Yeah, yeah, which I which I appreciate absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Chopped up fried chicken in a pasta salad, also pesto.
In general, I am reevaluating a lot of things that
I said about pasta salad right now.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, this is plus garlic clothes, pickled and chili oil,
which I know give you a oh don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
I think it's spicy chili oil, so I think it's fine.
Oh the garlic clothes though.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Heck, the garlic I feel because you're a vampire, I
don't I feel like I shouldn't have to remind you
of this, but you shouldn't. That was great.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
That was I was so focused on the chili oil
part that I entirely forgot that I shouldn't eat garlic.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It sounds so good, though, Oh my heck, it does
it does. This is one of those things again where
I just every now and then when we are doing
an episode like Memphis Style barbecue or pasta salad, I
just I feel bad for you, Lauren, because I know
the task of explaining it. It's a difficult one. And
(43:07):
the more and more I hear from you listeners about
pasta salad, the more and more I'm like, this could
be anything. Almost. Oh yeah, yep, oh sounds so good.
The world is your pasta slid ada in what you want?
It does sound good, And thank you listeners for sending
(43:27):
these in and please keep it, please keep it going. Yes, yes, yes.
In the meantime, thanks to both of these listeners for
writing to us. If you would like to write to us,
you can our emails hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do
hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots of more good things are
(44:01):
coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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