Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Savor Prediction of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie and I'm Lauren bogl Bam, and today we
have an episode for you about pesto.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Lord, Nope, Nope, not at all. There. So I had
been I've been thinking for a while about pine nuts.
I like, really want to do an episode about pine
nuts because I had never thought about them that hard.
And I'm like, oh, no, those are from pine trees
what and so now I'm really like, I don't think
(00:41):
that we've talked about conifers before on this show.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Wow, a real failing.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah right right and so and then so, so I
was on like a little I go on these like
little rabbit holes of trying to think of new topics
and making like lists of a bunch of them all
at the same time. And while I was thinking about
(01:11):
pine nuts, pasto came up, and yeah, yeah, and it's delicious.
It is delicious.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I have acquired some already, because yeah, yeah, it's just
like such a springtime thing to me, but I had
to get some. I actually wasn't very familiar with pesto
when we did our Basil episode, which By the way,
I now say basil instead of basil, But it's fifty
(01:43):
to fifty private.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Life because you are still a sleeper agent. So that's
oh I know. No, I'm not a sleeper oh.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Lauren, yeahs gotcha. But since then, I have really come
to love pesto. I have a friend who crows a
lot of basil and she makes fresh pesto, like the
best is so good.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, oh fresh basil, fresh, ye, basil, so.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Good, it is so good. Which, speaking of, you can
see our episode on basil, also on garlic pasta shapes.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Sure, sure, maybe food heists to hear a little bit
about parmesan. Well, we'll do a parmesan episode someday. It's
it's it's big. It's big and on wieldy, like a
like a wheel of parmesan. So yeah, I've been ambitious,
but not that ambitious yet, not yet. But we'll get
(02:54):
to it.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Oh yeah, we'll get to it. But in the meantime,
I gets that brings us to our question, sure, pesto,
what is it?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, pesto can be a lot of things, but what
you're basically looking at is a fresh, uncooked, savory sauce
made of a puree or paste or perhaps like fine
grind of herbs, nuts, cheese and seasonings like garlic and salt,
all emulsified in oil. It's traditionally made with the mortar
(03:31):
and pestle, and it should be smooth, smoothish and spoonable
in texture, with a creaminess to it from the nuts,
and lots of like bright green and salty savory flavor
from the herbs and the cheese. The most famous type
of pesto is Ala genovisi, which is basil, pine nuts,
(03:52):
parmesan and peccorino cheeses, garlic and coarse salt and olive oil,
all of which give the pesto this really like bright
like green color, so so bright, like almost kind of
neon like, sort of like the substance like it's great,
and these lovely contrasting like smooth, sharp, funky fresh notes,
which makes it sound like I'm describing hip hop, which
(04:16):
is a different podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I think, I like how you put the substance and
hip hop.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That's amazing. You're not wrong, this is my brain here
we are. But yeah, there are other regional varieties of pesto,
and people use all kinds of ingredients in it. It's
often used as a sauce for pasta, garnish for soups,
(04:44):
a spread for bread or sandwiches, or dressing for like
roasted proteins or vegetables. Ideally, a pesto is both silky
and like kind of aggressive. It's like it's like a
old like statement fashion choice. Uh, you know, it can
come in infinite iterations, and when it's done well, it
(05:07):
is sublime, and when it's not, it's like questionable and overpowering,
Like it can go from something just magic to something
that's like, what is happening to my face? And why?
I don't think I've ever had a bad pesto? Oh
(05:29):
have you?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Clearly I have had one that like assaulted my face.
I probably probably a lot of people would say you've
had a bad one, But for me, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Okay, And that's that's if if even like a not
great pesto is a good pesto to you, I'm happy
for your experiences of pesto.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Now I want to this is a great comparison. Now
I want to ask you about some fashion choice. But
this is ostensibly a food podcast, So.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Ostensibly, if if anyone has ever tried to give you
like a definitive recipe for pesto. They were misguided, like
there are exemplary recipes for different varieties, and there are
better and worse like ingredients and methods of making it.
(06:27):
But pesto is not a monolith. However, certainly in the
US and possibly like outside of Italy in general, pesto
means pesto a la genovise, which I know I'm saying wrong,
and I've just said it wrong for other different ways,
but we're gonna move on with that one. Yeah, this
means pesto of Genoa, which is a city in northwest
(06:50):
Italy's Liguria area. Yes, this is an Italian sauce. But
y'all write in and let us know if wherever you are,
pesto is not assumed to be like basil, garlic, parmesan,
pine nuts, because now I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yes, and I believe listener Arc has written in about
his pesto sauce and it was walnuts.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Oh yeah, that's a common substitution even from the area.
And speaking of if you want to do pesto like
hyper of Genoa, you are looking for kind of traditional
ingredients from that area. In case you're not in that area,
here's a rundown of the concept behind each ingredient. Okay,
(07:34):
to start with the basil. Genoese basil is a specific
variety of sweet basil that actually carries a protected designation
of origin from the Liguria region. And I think I
said in maybe lab grown meat. I think I said
demonstration or denomination or something. I did say the right word.
(07:57):
So yeah, if you were confused about that, Yeah, I'm
a human person. As it turns out, at any rate,
Genoese basil is a basil with these small kind of
like grassy green leaves and a strong, almost spicy flavor
that is not minty. I don't know why that's so important,
but I all the literature I read about this basil,
it is not minty. Telling you what I've had, yes, yes,
(08:23):
And fresh basil is kind of like the star flavor here.
So you know, any like fresh, young type of sweet
basil European basil that you can get your hands on
is going to be an okay substitution. Try soaking it
in cold water before you use it. Don't don't like
mash it dry padded. It's okay for a little water
gets in there. Yeah. Ligurion extra virgin olive oil is
(08:46):
a type of fairly mild like, almost buttery olive oil.
You're looking for an oil whose flavor is going to
kind of like calm down or round out the basil,
not compete with it by being too spicy or fruity,
So any like milder, decent quality olive oil is workable here.
Mediterranean pine nuts again, pine nut episode forthcoming, But the
(09:11):
Mediterranean variety of pines that pine nuts come from are
called stone pines, and their seeds are like creamy, sweet
and nutty and usually sold without the skins, so they
don't have that tannic bitterness that nuts in skins can.
While nuts are a classic alternative, though you might consider
blanching them to remove those skins, probably don't bother toasting them.
(09:34):
Usually I would say always toast. But here again you're
looking for like a nice, smooth, buttery kind of situation.
Bringing us to the cheeses. Parmesan or more properly parmesan
or regiano is a hard aged cow milk cheese traditionally
made under another pdo. The name is protected in the
EU but not elsewhere, so if you pick them up
(09:57):
in the States, if it doesn't have the PDO label,
it's probably not from there. This is traditionally like a nutty, savory, fruity, funky,
salty cheese. Pecorino is a category of hard aged sheet
milk cheeses, and from what I understand, the preferred variety
is pecorino if you're a sardo, which is a Sardinian
(10:19):
variety that also has a PDO and it's like tangy, fruity, salty, smoky.
It's a lightly smoked cheese. I don't think I've ever
had it. Now I'm really interested in it. Both of
these cheeses have a sharpness to them, but like they're
not harsh. Again, the theme is smooth, and you know,
(10:40):
you can substitute, Like if you can find imported cheese
with the pedos, that's cool, but if not, you know,
like other pecorinos work as well. I will say the
pecorino romano that's the most common in the United States
is a little bit sharper, so you might want to
balance it out with like a little bit more palm.
I don't know, you know, like don't get your parmesan
out of a tube, like buy a block and fresh grde.
(11:02):
It not that I'm saying I mean in this case,
don't don't shake it out of a tube. Nothing wrong
with a tube of parmesan. That is a serious comfort
food for me. I have some in my fridge right now.
I'm relieved to hear this. I'm happy to know that
about you. Thank you. Yeah, that's something I just did
(11:23):
this week. I was like this, this is this week
is going to call it calls for some parmesan in
a tube. That's the level we're at right now. Yes,
little comforts where you can get them, y'all. Okay. The
garlic most regionally is going to be Salico garlic, for
Salico being a town in Liguria that's been hosting a
garlic festival for like two hundred some years. This garlic
(11:46):
is known for being really delicately spicy, which I like
to think I am, but I don't think. I don't
think that's true. I'd give it to you, thankshap. Perhaps
the most surprising part of my reading for this episode
was that a lot of like regional Italian recipes for
(12:06):
pesto call for relatively little garlic, like maybe just a
single clove, maybe just a slice, Like it seems allowable
to not use garlic if you don't want to oh my,
and Annie is kind of shaking her head here, and
I under I understand that urge, like I do think
that American takes an Italian cuisine tend to be really
(12:28):
alium heavy in a very like American like more is
more kind of way. So I'm really intrigued by this,
partially because aliens make my guts hate me, but just
like flavor balance wise, I'm like, huh interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Wow, as you know, that always saddens me that your
guts hate you in this way.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And me too same sea. Yeah, but I am curious.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
We're going to talk about a little bit in history section,
but I am curious, like the difference between a fresh
garlic and a fresh garlic, a fresh pesto and an
imported pesto.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh sure the.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Garlic was covering up like a not so great pesto sometimes, yes,
or or.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You know, when it's been jarred, it's gone through a
process that has broken down some of those flavor molecules.
So maybe you know, like when it is truly fresh,
it doesn't need as much I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Uh. For the salt, of course, sea salt is recommended,
and yes, the traditional method of pulverizing and incorporating these
ingredients is using a marble mortar and wooden pestle, and
I have read multiple recipe test articles that like kind
of unfortunately back up the idea that this equipment will
(13:51):
yield the best pesto results. I say unfortunately because Italian
marble is expensive and working everything by hand takes like
time and effort and practice, and I really enjoy easy
and cheap solutions. But I guess like perhaps not a
shock like the tools developed in the region are the
best for working with these regional ingredients. I have read
(14:14):
that a food processor is the second best option, even
above like other types of mortar and pestle situations. If
you're curious, Food fifty two and Serious Eats both have
good guides to all of this. The one from Serious
Eats is less likely to crash your browser in my
personal experience, so do without what you will. But yeah,
(14:35):
there are a lot of recipes out there that will
yield like different textures and flavors, and I think it's
it's really the kind of thing that will differ every
time you make it, depending on your exact ingredients and
your tastes and your application of the moment, and from
everything that I've read, like even like the pesto experts
top of the pesto chain are saying that, you know,
(14:58):
like you should play with it. That's nice. Worst case
you eat more pesto.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, that sounds great. I'm into that, right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
But again, Genoese pesto is not the only type of pesto.
Other traditional varieties include pesto ala trepese, which is a
Sicilian variant that uses basil and mint almonds instead of
pine nuts, a similar gentle pecorino situation, garlic and then
a bunch of plum tomatoes that have been peeled in
(15:32):
cord and this yields like a pink colored sauce with
a really bright acid contrast to it, which I have
never had, and now I need to immediately. That sounds
so great, Oh my gosh, sounds lovely. There's also a
category of fresh pulverized sauces from like just a little
(15:53):
ways west along the Mediterranean in provenceal France called pistoo.
I've seen a lot of different recipes, like I didn't
see any two recipes that were even vaguely similar, which
was confusing to me. But but pistoo usually involves parsley
and basil, olive oil, and garlic. That's kind of the base.
And then it can involve a hard cheese like greere
(16:17):
or parmesan, and then something that will go creamy like
like almonds or bread crumbs, interesting and seasonings like black
pepper or citrus peel. The citrus peel. It also has
me thinking, I'm like, that is a great plan. Yeah,
I always want such Yeah. Right, those are the two
(16:39):
main varieties of other pestos that I saw referenced. If
I'm missing your favorite traditional variety, do write in. And
also all of that being said, people do all kinds
of dang things with this concept. You know, any herbs,
any cheese is any seasonings, any creamy binder type things
(17:00):
you know you want to put in, some artichoke carts
or arugula, dill, a regano time, I don't know, boiled potato, cashews,
sesame seeds. It's a lot of options.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I have to say.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Sometimes I'm like, I have a lot of arugula. What
do I do? You know, always pesto? Yeah, And I'm
just thinking of like the weird rifts that you could do.
I'm like, what if you got like a bunch of
thaie basil and some sesame and just you know, riffed
that way on it. Yeah, I like that. I think
(17:35):
that would be good. There's work to be done here.
These these sauces are fresh. They should not be cooked.
They should be applied to food once the food is
off the heat, because you're going to change the textures
and the flavors if you apply heat to it. And yeah,
you can use them to coat pasta along with a
little bit of the water that the pasta was cooking in.
(17:57):
Always save a little bit of pasta water. I under
stand that a local genoa that like one of the
classic genoa preparations involves boiling your pasta along with string
beans and potatoes. Mm hmm, that sounds that sounds great.
You can also use pesto, though, to add soups to
top whatever veg or protein you've cooked, to spread on
(18:19):
sandwiches or just bread. Yeah uh. And right now I
am thinking about how I have never topped my eggs
with pesto, and I feel like I have to reevaluate
my life and my choices.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
You do, because it's really good.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Like like scrambled would be even but like like a
like a benedict situation.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Oh oh yes, oh yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Well, while i'm thinking about that, quick science side note.
If whatever method you use to make your pesto sees
your basil browning before you finish the pesto, that's from oxidation,
you know, the same way that a cut apple or
pear will start browning. And you can sty me that
by either adding a little bit of olive oil to
the basil while you're breaking it down. A lot of
(19:12):
recipes call for it to be added later, but it's fine.
It's fine to add it earlier, or or by adding
a little bit of lemon juice in there if you
don't mind that changing the flavor, don't. Don't blant your basil.
Don't blant your basil. And also probably if you're gonna
jar your basil for the fridge or the freezer, just
put a little thin layer of olive oil on the
(19:32):
top to prevent oxidation while it's hanging out.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
That reminds me of some of those fun experiments you
do when you're in like elementary school.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, we put this fluffel the vinegar.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, I love it. What
about the nutrition, Well.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
It depends on how you make it. But you know,
like olive oil and cheese and nuts are all in
dense foods that are heavy on fats, so like, you know,
watch your portion sizes. But but Pesto's ingredients also have,
in addition to a good punch of fat, good punches
of protein and fiber and micronutrients. You know, eat, eat
a vegetable, use lean proteins. When you can have a good.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Time, have a good time. And I have to say,
Pesto did bring back a couple of fun memories for me,
one of which we're about to talk about. But I, uh,
my dad when he would pick me up at college,
we would always stop at either macaroni grill or cheesecake factory.
(20:38):
Oh okay, yeah, And I'm going to admit to you, Lauren,
this morning, I just nostalgically was like, when we look
at the menus for these places, I want to see
if the dishes I used to get are still there.
One of them I got was just vegetables and pesto.
Oh so good, Oh gosh, and it you know when
you look at a menu and you're just like, I'm
(21:01):
not going to go back to this place anytime soon.
But I remember enjoying. Gave me a lot of joy.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah right, that family nostalgia about it too. Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Macaroni grill you could draw on the table.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, so much bread.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Not sponsors either, no, but okay, we have some numbers
have for.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You, like a number and a half. Okay. So, so
there is a World Championship of pesto. It happens once
every two years in Genoa. In the spring twenty twenty
four was its tenth iteration. We're gonna talk about it
more in the history section, but like, very very basically,
every event has one hundred competitors, all of whom get
(21:47):
the same seven ingredients and use a mortar and pestle
to make their pesto. So it is you know, the
winner is down to like their blend of the ingredients
and the way that they blend them together. This I love. This.
Also a number totally unrelated to the food. There is
(22:08):
an internet celebrity king penguin Chick whose name is Pasto,
that was born last year in Australia, and I mention
him in the number section because his fame partially comes
from the fact that he's huge. Yes, it's a very
large penguin chick, like at nine months old in September
(22:29):
of twenty twenty four, he weighed forty nine pounds that's
twenty two kilos.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, he's a big boy.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's like a Labrador Retriever sized penguin chick like his
parents only weighed like like fifteen kilos each, just towering
like a lurch over all of the other penguins. At
that time. He was eating and I'm proud of him
more than his body weight and fish every week. And apparently,
(23:03):
according to his zookeepers, like over a quarter of that
weight at that time was just his big fluffy baby
down And so he's gonna slim down a little bit
as he grows.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
He's that is such a fun statement. Internet celebrity king
penguin chip named Pesto. Uh, celebrities have visited this penguin.
Oh yeah, he really he got he's got a following
he does.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
It's a good name. It's a good name. And speaking
of this isn't a number. But like another thing unrelated
to food that like was really like like sneaking into
my search results was the fact that NASA has this
office that is the Planetary Exploration Science Technology office or pesto.
(24:02):
Oh I like that, Yeah, Space fact.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Of the episode.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Didn't think you would go get it and pesto did you?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
You never know, You never know, And I've got to
say the research on this one. You never know where
it will go.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Always always yeah, and so yes, we do have quite
a history for you and we are going to get
into that as soon as we get back from a
quick break for word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and yes see.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Our basil episode. Although basil has not always been involved
no with pesto.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
No, because it was like a relatively late addition. It
was to the cuisine.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yes, the first precursors of pesto trace back to ancient rooms.
According to the Daily Meal, ancient Romans would make what
was called moritum, and it called for cheese, herbs, olive, oil, salt,
and pepper mixed together in a mortar. The herbs in
question could have been a lot of things, though yeah,
(25:16):
likely not basil last time. The cheese could have also
been a lot of things, including fresh cheese. Cheese could
have been emitted altogether, with some mixtures containing only basil
and garlic. The resulting sauce was typically added to meats
whatever it was. Yeah, virgils first century CE book of
(25:42):
poems includes one called Moratam, which describes the ingredients and
process behind a similar sauce. Celery, coreander, seeds, rue, parsley,
some type of cheese, and a lot of garlic were
ground together in a mortar and pestle, mixed with olive
oil and then slathered on bread, which sound delicious. Yeah, yes,
(26:02):
I am into it. In Roman author called Emela's early
first century CE book on Agriculture, he describes the recipe
similar to our modern day pesto. In the Middle Ages,
in Italy there was something similar to pesto called agriata,
a mixture of nuts, typically walnuts, and garlic ground down together.
(26:26):
This preparation is still around you can still get it. Interestingly, though,
this is around the time a lot of researchers believe
that basil arrived in Italy via trade routes. One theory
goes that garlic was added in because it was a
good preservative and therefore it was a smart and tasty
addition to meats, and that sailors were the ones to
(26:49):
add basil for extra flavor and nutrition. But preparations were
also based on what was available as usual. The first
recipe for pesto that is consistent with our modern understanding
the basic ingredients of basil, olive oil, parmesan and pine
nuts and mixing them together. That traces back to a
(27:12):
recipe from the eighteen sixties in a cookbook titled Genoese Cooking.
The author allowed for walnuts or pine nuts, and the
basil wasn't necessary, though he highly recommended it. The cheese
in question wasn't parmesan but a Dutch cheese, meaning guda,
probably aged. And yeah, basil wasn't necessary because it wasn't
(27:36):
that widespread yet, and the recipe said that you could
set in a blend of parsley and marjoram if you
wanted to. Yes, it also called for butter. However, while
this recipe is the first in the written record, people
were certainly doing similar things previously.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, and it was already being spread around other parts
of the Mediterranean through trade, and perhaps especially around port
cities like Trapani in Sicily and Nice in what's now France.
Though the niece does have historical ties to Ligoria, and
this brings us to an important note as we've already
(28:14):
mentioned there are many.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Types of pesto. This is in part because the Genoese
word for pesto, meaning to pound, is likely descended from
a Latin word that now typically refers to any dish
made with a mortar and pestole. So it's an action
and a dish.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah yeah, This reminded me very much of our Papaya
salad episode, talking about how that tom that salad is
more talking about the method than the actual dish. Yes, yeh, yep.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
A lot of these dishes are related to Genoese pesto
historically sort of offshoots of it. A lot of it
has to do with what's locally available and regional taste.
This is how we get red pesto with tomatoes and
the French pieceto, which is a mixture of oil, garlic
and basil ground together with a mortar pestle or food
(29:14):
processor gyues.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
No, some people have really strong about They absolutely do.
They absolutely do. Although like my food processor is a
really important part of my life. So no shade, no
shade if you ever need to bust out a food processor.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Absolutely no, no, no shade at all. A pesto's arrival
to the US came a bit later with the wave
of Italian immigration in the early twentieth century. Many non
Italian Americans didn't try it until the nineteen forties and fifties,
but they still didn't really like it, or they didn't
give it a lot of love. I read that the
(29:54):
imported versions just weren't that great. It wasn't until a
few decades later in the seventies at the US at
large got a taste for pesto, and part of that
was because people had more access to the fresh pesto.
Even so, it didn't really take off until the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah. Yeah, there was a really big like Mediterranean, you know,
like rustic French slash Italian trend in the eighties and
nineties in the United States. That's why if you've ever
been like, why is burnt sierra a color on all
of these walls? You can thank the nineties.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Does this haunt you?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Does this keep you up at nice? It does? The
combination of that and like drab oll of makes me
a little bit angry, okay, learning more about you every day,
Like I don't hate those colors independently, but why was
every house, why was every kitchen anyway, it's fine, it's fine.
(30:54):
I'm over it. I'm clearly not cleally. But other than paint,
this included the Mediterranean diet, and pesto was definitely a
part of that.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yes, I think we talked about it. I think it
was a listener mail from Christine. We talked about Green Goddess.
Oh yeah, pesto got wrapped up in Green Goddess for me,
the Green Goddess dressing where I didn't have it until
I was in high school and I thought it was
so fancy. Oh yeah, so interesting. Growing up in a
(31:36):
small town, you just don't get exposed to a lot
of different things, and when you do, you're like, whoa.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Anyway, According to Savor, when the two thousand and one
G eight summit was hosted in Genoa, the Italian Prime
Minister Silvio Berlusconi demanded that the pesto served be absent
garlic and be called basil sauce instead of pesto. Genovese
(32:07):
people were understandably upset and threw garlic at him in protest,
which is excellent, I mean, yes.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Excellent form of protest. Yes, that smells going to linger.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Perhaps as part of this local makers began really pushing
for that DOP status in two thousand and five, establishing
rules around the Ligorian grown basil.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Oh yeah, yeah, much later in twenty eighteen. This is
kind of an ongoing process with like the PDO for
the basil went through, and they're still working on a
PDO for pesto. But so in twenty eighteen there was
this Liguria region event that was working to a celebrate
(32:58):
pesto and be gather sack to request that it be
entered on UNESCO's cultural lists like Intangible Cultural Heritage lists. Apparently,
over the course of a week they gathered over twenty
seven thousand signatures, and a number of their were not mine.
Pestimonials from various celebrities.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I love it hard agree, I see you testimonial.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
So good.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Wow, no notes. The first International World Championship of Pesto
took place in two thousand and seven. Hundreds of competitors
made pesto for the judges. Okay, so again, I love
this all right. It was originally held annually, but they
(33:54):
switched to every other year after two thousand and eight because,
as the organizer won, Roberto Panitza said, we realized we
were doing it practically full time, and this is like
the most Italian thing I've ever heard of. I say
this with love, but like being like like doing it
like two years in a row. And I mean, like
(34:14):
too much work, too much work. We need to slow
this down.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
We need to no, no, no, yeah, this is what
I'm saying, Like, I mean, like we need to slow
this down and really appreciate it, because right now I'm
stressed out. That's not the point of pesto aces. I
wish that America was more like that.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Stop and say for the pesto, right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Panitza is a restauranteur and a producer of gourmet products,
including pesto. So okay, So this event, there are qualifying
rounds that occur around the world during the year leading
up to each finals, whittling down the entrance to the
hundred finalists. The finals are held in a historic palace
in Genoa, because of course they are. The morning of
(35:01):
the finals, ten rounds of ten participants each face off,
and then the winner from each group goes on to
the championship, which is judged by thirty experts like thirty
chefs and like food critics and other industry persona.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I'm wilting at the phone. I would die. I'm competitive,
but thirty experts, no.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
No, and yeah yeah. They all work with the same ingredients.
They use a little marble mortar and wooden pestle. They
have forty minutes to craft their pesto. And the prize,
you know, aside from the title of being the World
(35:50):
Champion of pesto, which is pretty cool on its own,
the prize is a wooden pestle with a golden handle.
Oh wow, right, wow. I love all of this so much.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
That's amazing, all of these food competition prizes.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
They're enviable, Like you understand why someone puts them through
the rigors of being judged by thirty people on your pesto.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
And I say this as someone who is relatively new
to pesto, but I would love to try all these
different types of pesto because I just feel like, to me,
it has a how much differences are we talking about?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Right right?
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I want to know?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I want to know, and how do you decide?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Oh that's the question, isn't it. I if anyone has attended, competed, judged, yes,
please let us know. Absolutely important.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Oh, I mean, if you feel like your pasto could like,
ha's what it takes. Yes, if you have oh always, oh, yes,
if you have strong opinions, definitely, but.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
We will eagerly await those. That's what we have to
say about pesto for now.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
For now, Yes, but we do already have some listener
mail for you, and we are going to get into
that as soon as we get back from one more
quick break for a word from our sponsors. And we're back.
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, and we're back with listeners. Oh,
(37:48):
I don't know where you're going.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, sometimes it just doesn't work, and that's okay, listeners.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, we're working lives. It's a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
There's a lot of reasons why that fell through, but
I think it's you know, pasto sometimes works out, sometimes doesn't.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Experimentation is an important part of the process. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Which, speaking of this listener mail we were so happy
to get. Yes, we're going to split it into because
it's pretty in depth. It's a little longer, but yes,
very excited tofer wrote during the recent lab grown Meat episode,
you asked for anyone who has tried some to write
(38:50):
in about the experience. I happened to be a former
employee of a cell culture seafood company, and I ate
a lot of cell culture fish while I was working
as an analytical chemist there. While I primarily focused on
developing methods around nutritional composition and to assess the safety
of the cells, I also dabbled in flavor chemistry as
(39:13):
well during my time there. The goal at the company
was to create sushi grade sashimi, and I will say
it was spot on. It was absolutely delicious. As one
of the few non vegetarians food scientists at the company,
I was often asked to try prototypes and compare them
with wild caught fish, and as a sashimi obsessive it
(39:37):
never got old. As you hinted at in the episode,
there are still many challenges that the technology faces. Growing
the cells at a large enough scale to make even
a tiny dent into the conventional meat industry is a
massive challenge. Removing fetal bovine serum is another major priority,
and a lot of focus has gone into that research
(39:58):
space and a good amount of progress has been made. Also.
While current methods allow researchers to differentiate cells into muscle
or fat cells, getting the cells to behave like fat
or muscle would in a living animal is a much
more difficult challenge for the industry. One of the reasons
why it is still a common practice using a matrix
(40:20):
or scaffold to provide the structure of cell culture meat
is because individual muscle cells and suspension won't inherently begin
to form strands of muscle on their own. Using a
scaffold or a gel to help provide some of that
structure can help achieve the desired texture while still keeping
the finished product mostly composed of lab grown cells.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
He continues, companies are making very rapid advancements on all
of these fronts, but due to much of this work
being proprietary, I'm not aware of any organization that has
been able to incorporate all of these advances to really
crack the code quite yet. I personally expect some acquisitions
will happen soon, so some of the larger companies will
begin to implement some technology developed by smaller firms, which
(41:04):
could accelerate growth in the field. Being a venture capital
back to technology also presents its own challenges, and the
funding situation means that these vcs are now shifting away
from funding a lot of small companies to now picking
the winners and losers of this generation of cell culture
meat firms, meaning many companies will go under to help
concentrate the money and talent in a smaller pool of companies.
(41:27):
As an aside, I just want to say that I
think it is lovely when life comes full circle. I
wrote to the pod back in twenty nineteen after your
episode on oranges because I was working on my PhD
dissertation on the impact of citrus greening and other diseases
on metabolic pathways in citrus trees. After finishing my PhD
in twenty twenty, I did a postdoctoral fellowship studying upcycled
foods while also temporarily becoming a mildly successful food science
(41:50):
TikTok or slash YouTuber, and then landed the analytical chemist
role at the cell culture Seafood company. I now work
as a principal scientist at a very large pet food company, where,
oddly enough, all of my work with upcycled foods and
cell culture meat remains very relevant. As a food scientist.
I have been amazed where my obsession with food science,
(42:11):
food chemistry, food culture, and food history has led me,
and I appreciate hearing other food obsessives nerd out about
the same things that I do.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Oh, this is so cool, so cool.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Oh man, all right, so I am also a sashimi
obsessive and this sounds like a crazy dream job. Like
I mean, like we have a crazy dream job, but
I don't get to eat sashimi all the time, not
all the time, not all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
I yes, I am also sashimi obsessive. And wow, this
is so cool. You all of you listeners do such
amazing things.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Also, congrats on your PhD. Yes, absolutely, yes. And it's
fascinating to see why. It's really cool that you wrote
in in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, here we are. That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
But it's fascinating to see how all of your expertise
in these other areas has led you into different fields
and now currently pet food, which is another topic we've
been avoiding off. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, also very ambitious. Yeah, it's just it's really it's
a really huge topic and also veers dangerously close to
talking a lot about nutrition, which you know, there's a
reason that one of the Savor mottos is like nutrition
is complicated. It's because it is, and it's a field
(43:45):
that's very much still in the works. And so also,
you know, there's a little voice in the back of
my head that's like, don't soft potential future advertisers, that.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
It's always there. It's like a horror you know, we
love horror. We discussed on multiple times, like multiple occasions,
what if we did a whole podcast that was just
us descending into madness because bads, thank you sponsors.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yes, we love all of you. I mean, also do
this without you. Also, I'm sure that we say things
that would in anger any potential sponsor every every episode.
I mean, you know that's again delicately spicy, delicately.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Spicy, delicately spicy.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
I I am so interested with this whole like flavor
science too, that that aspect, uh huh, because I feel
like a lot of times it's the conversation is about
the texture.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
No, no, but that the flavor is right. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean you know when you when you talk about
the tearoir of food, right, and it is such a
deep science that we again like we don't entirely understand.
We're like, why does it taste that way? Stuff?
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, stuff, And then when you bring in so much
science to it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
It's yeah, yeah, no, I thank you so much. Like
this is it like like again, like we are not
science experts, you know, we're we're kind of just trying
to glean what we can from the internet and so
right getting getting the inside perspective on it is super cool.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
It is so thank you so much. Please let us
know if you have thoughts on pesto s Yes, so
Recipe and all of you other listeners as well.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
I'm I'm excited. I want to hear these pesto thoughts.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
I hope that they're I hope they're strong pesto thoughts. Yes,
I hope so, I do too. I do too. I
hope I need someone mad about the garlic. Go ahead.
You can email us at Hello at Savor. We're also
kind of on social media. I don't know, man, we're
on We're certainly on Blue Sky right now, and I
(46:08):
guess still Instagram at Savor Pod, we do hope to
hear from you. Save is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, you can go to the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and
Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and we hope
(46:30):
that lots more good things are coming your way.