January 8, 2025 • 37 mins
This dish of rice & beans simmered with smoked pork has become a New Year’s Day tradition – but how did it start? Anney and Lauren spill the hypothetical history of hoppin’ john.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Saber Prediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie and I'm Mon Bugle Bam, and today we
have an episode for you about Hoppin' John, Yes, which
I'm curious listeners if some of you don't know what
that is. Yeah, we living in Georgia, hear some about
it at the very least, certainly on our travels. We
(00:32):
have run into it. We did talk about it, I
believe in our round up episode of our Ashville trip.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
We did. And I actually searched out to see if
that was still on the menu of the place we
were eating.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh yes, it's not. Oh oh interesting, Okay, Yeah, I
just wanted to see how it compared to what I've
now learned.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
But yes, I think I know the answer. But was
there any particular reason this was on your mind? Laura?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, we just had a New Year dawn upon us,
and Hop and John is in some places a traditional
New Year's Day food.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So here we are, here we are. I'll say I
don't have a lot of experience with Hop and John,
and especially after doing this research, I don't have a
lot of experience with traditional Hop and John. But I've
spoken about before I do I hesitate to even say
(01:40):
similar these people yell at me, but I do something
that I would say is in a similar vein of
hop and john.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, you have like a like a beans and greens
and corn bread kind of situation that you do on.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
New Year's Day sometimes rice and cam or pork or something.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, yeah, that is not part of my like original
fan Like I don't remember any original family New Year's
Day food traditions aside from like whatever we felt like consuming.
But you know, just like something nice maybe, but uh
but since I moved, like like since I've been in Atlanta,
(02:22):
I usually try to do the beans and greens and
cornbread thing in some combination. So yeah, it's it's also
just delicious, Like come on, man, like rice and beans
with some collars some like nice hot vinegary collars. Corn bread?
Huh why not every day? Not every day, but you know.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So many holiday meals though, I'm like, why am I
only having this once a year?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Right?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I feel like I could have it at least twice
a year.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I ah man, And I really
doing all this, doing all this reading, I really do
want to track down some of the more traditional ingredients.
Also speaking of We did want to say here at
the top that this is one of the topics that
we haven't done earlier in our seven ish year Savor career,
(03:18):
is that we being a dish that is from the
American South, we really thought that it would be great
to go interview people who had more direct experience with
it before we just get on the mic and talk
about it. And since we don't really travel anymore, we couldn't.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really do that.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But as with everything we cover, we have read many
things and we hope that we are coming at you
with correct information, if not with a ton of personal experience.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, and in fact, when we were traveling, we had
a whole folder dedicated to South Carolina in specific for
this in this case where we were planning to talk
about some of the things involved in this. So yeah,
seek out those people who are in that area and
(04:17):
talking about it. But unfortunately we did not get The
pandemic really put a crimp in our plans. As they say, yeah, yeah,
but you can see our New Year's Traditions Food episode
(04:39):
for more Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Also vaguely related topics black eyed peas, bacon, Biriyanni payea.
Have we done a Collared's episode. I can't I can't remember.
I don't think so, I don't think so. Okay, yeah,
corn bread, Sure, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's hard to say. So much has happened in these
seven years. It's hard to say. Which brings us to
our question, Sure, hop and John, what is it?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, hopin John has been made in many different ways,
but what you're basically looking at is a rice and
beans powllo dish, in which the rice and beans are
cooked together in a single pot using a meaty broth
which has probably been created using water, a smoked pork product,
and some seasonings like aromatic vegetables and herbs. Maybe. Traditionally,
(05:44):
the idea is that at the end of cooking, the
beans and rice should both be tender with like a
little bit of chew, and each grain and bean should
remain whole and separate, like shouldn't be mush, shouldn't be
too saucy. The type of rice and beans you choose
for this and the method of cooking both matter. Modernly,
(06:05):
it is known as a New Year's Day dish, served
alongside cooked greens and corn bread as symbols of wealth
and luck for the coming year. Though yeah, it's a nice,
like hearty one pot dish for any time. Really it's
savory and stick to your ribs and satisfying without being
too heavy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Eating it is like being in the dry, crackling heat
of a wood fire, like smoky and human in this
way that like resounds back through time.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
M hm hm, yes, it is. Like it's very satisfying.
M it's very All those flavors melding together just feel
so filling. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's salty and delicious, and
(07:04):
the starch of the like beans and the greens or whatever,
like it just feels very.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Everything you need, everything you need, yeah, yeah, and Okay.
There is a lot to unpack here about the traditional
and modern interpretations of the dish, most of which we're
going to get into in the history section, because this
is a dish that started in the Gulla or perhaps
(07:32):
Gallagiechi communities in low country South Carolina and has moved
around the United States from there and is also based
in even older food traditions. But sort of briefly, all right,
the beans you're looking to use should stand up to
long cooking. The original was probably a variety called the
(07:53):
Sea Island red pea, which is a type of cowpee,
which is a lagome grown for its seeds or beans
because they keep well when dried and are a good
source of protein see Island. Red peas are this particular
variety that are like deep gold to burgundy red to
purple black in color, and we'll have a purple to
black eye on the concave curve of the bean. The
(08:16):
variety is a separate episode. Modernly people have taken to
using a related variety of cowpee called black eyed peas,
which we've covered before, which are white to cream with
a purple to black eye. And we'll cook up a
little bit softer whatever you use. The beans are boiled
from dry, which lets them put off some of their
flavor and like stuff into the cooking liquid. The rice
(08:40):
that you're looking to use is something long grained and
non aromatic. The original was probably a variety called Carolina Gold,
which was developed in coastal South Carolina during the colonial era.
It's like chewy and nutty and a little bit sweet,
also a separate episode. These days, other non aromatic long
(09:01):
grain varieties may be used instead. The rice is going
to be added to the beans like briefly boiled and
then steamed until it's done. The broth that you're doing
this in okay, So yeah. The liquid in which you
cook your rice and beans was originally probably achieved by
taking water and cooking a salted and smoked ham product
(09:25):
like bacon in with the beans and the rice. These
days people might take a shortcut or like add extra
flavor by using a prepared broth, but lots of recipes
will call for just taking water and then like a
maybe a drier stew purposed ham product like a hamhowk
something like that. Alternatives like smoked turkey might be used.
(09:47):
Additional seasonings for the broth now often include alions like
onion or garlic, maybe some hot and or mild peppers,
other aromatic veg like celery and carrots, maybe some herbs
like bay, sage or ti and the whole concept here
was originally again probably to cook this down until the
(10:08):
beans and rice are both cooked through and all the
liquid has been absorbed while maintaining the integrity of the
rice and the beans, And the idea is generally that
this is a main dish and that you might have
like a side or a topping of other proteins or vegetables.
Four similar concepts. If you've never had this in particular,
(10:32):
you can look to the paluffs or palaos of like
the Spanish Mediterranean, all the way through Central and South Asia,
all the way down along like West Africa's rice region,
like everything from piea to biryani to jallaf rice. But
(10:52):
today there are i would say, extensions of Hop and
John that are made to taste or to suit whatever
ingredients people have on hand. I have seen stewier versions
that people like to break down the beans a little
bit in, or versions that are served with the greens
mixed in and a little bit of pot licker in there.
(11:13):
Pot licker being the liquid that results from cooking down
greens with probably another salted smoked meat product. I've seen
versions with tomato in it. I'm not going to tell
you how to cook your rice and beans. Okay, there
are certainly people who will tell you what Hop and
(11:34):
John is and is not.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
But I am not one of them.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I am as per the usual, raising my hands in
the universally defensive position and backing away slowly from the argument.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I do giving you the baselines.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I do not have a bean in this race. But yeah,
this has come to be a New Year's Day dish
in America, and certainly in America's south, like like South
Atlantic region and beyond that is kind of like more
generally reserved for special occasions of various kinds because it
(12:15):
does take some time and effort to do well. But
I don't know, man, Yeah, eat it on a Thursday,
you do you?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
You do you? Yeah? Wow? What about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
It depends on how you make it, perhaps obviously, but
rice and beans are pretty good for you, you know,
good punch of starch, good punch of protein, complete profile
of amino acids, you know. Yeah, Like eat a vegetable,
don't add too much smoked, salted whatever meat product unless
you want to treats her nice. And he like glared
(12:52):
at me a little bit when I said that.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'm not entirely sure why that was a really involuntary reaction.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Don't tell me how much fake it?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Don't you do?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
We don't have any numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
We don't. Well, all right, So one thing, this is
such a this is such like a like a homey
dish that I couldn't I couldn't find any numbers, but
but I did look up the Google trends for hop
and John, which is how how often people are looking
up the term on Google. And there is predictably a
(13:33):
huge spike every like late December, and specifically in the
American coastal South. So there you go.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It gets like increasingly less likely that people would search
for it the further away from this region that you get. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I would really love listeners for you all.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Oh my goodness, please do please do.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, well, we do have a history that might explain
some of why that is.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yes, yes we do. But first we've got a quick
break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay
to start, shout out to Robert Moss's article the Historic
Problem with Hop and John over at Serious Eats for
being really helpful and putting this outline together. I also
really appreciated that all of this very informative information was
(14:48):
couched in the author's anger how Hop and John is
no longer good.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
By which he means like the ingredients that made it
good are no longer widely available or widely used, and
that therefore every iteration of Hop and John that he's
had or tried to make personally has been kind of lackluster.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It was very fun because you would be reading it
it's so in depth, and then it would he would
remind you that this is why. Yeah, it's not good.
In this reason, it's great. I highly recommend it. Good article.
It is such a great like we need to talk
about carolina gold and all these other things. But yes,
(15:41):
big shout out okay. According to food historian and researcher
Karen Hess, hop and John is a bean palau created
by the African diaspora in the Carolina ricelands. To make
a Carolina palau, rice from the region was prewashed, simmered
in broth until it's mostly absorbed, and served with some
(16:05):
type of protein. Often the protein was something like chicken, shrimp,
or beans was cooked along with the rice. The tradition
of simmering the rice with beans in broth originated in Africa,
and regions of the Americas that had significant populations of
people from Africa created some version of this with what
(16:28):
they had.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah think of like red beans and rice in Louisiana
or black beans and rice in Cuba.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yes, And in South Carolina, the variety that developed was
hopin John, which was made with bacon, peas and rice
and espeas.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And beans a type of bean referred to as a pea.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yes, so much confusion, okay. Enslaved West Africans were shipped
to the Carolinas because of their knowledge of how to
grow rice. The rice and peas of what is now
that region originated in Africa too, and they were brought
over by traders through the slave trade and planted in
(17:13):
that region.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And this diaspora of peoples in this specific region of
the Carolinas formed the Gulla culture in what would become
the United States. There were varieties of rice and rice
type grains in the Americas before European colonization brought these
peoples and these agricultural products over, but rice like really
(17:38):
took off after colonization because these introduced varieties were really
popular colonial crops, as were various types of beans. And
note here that like rice and beans planted in conjunction
and or in rotation with each other helped keep the
soil fit for planting because legomes helped fix nitrogen in
(17:59):
the soil which plants used to grow. And again see
above our nutrition section, eating them together is nutritious. It
provides you a complete profile of amino acids. So this
is like a very old and very smart way of
sustaining both the environment and yourself. And this is technology
(18:19):
that was brought over by what would become the galliculture
in the Carolinas.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, so the original recipes of Hopin John called for
a pint each of rice and peas beans and a
pound of bacon. Early recipes called for red peas or
cow peas, which may or may not have been black
eyed peas. It's very confusing.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Again, cowpeas is a larger category that both these these
red colored black eyed peas and white colored black eyed
peas are sub varieties of but right the terminology is
a little bit borked.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's definitely pork. And we'll talk about that a little
bit more later, because, yeah, there are a lot of
difficulties when it comes to recreating this dish, as per
Moss's article and serious eats using our modern ingredients. Most
of us don't have easy access to Carolina gold rice.
(19:21):
The pork used as different, as is the process of
making the bacon. And it is very difficult to know
what sort of beans were traditionally used because there were
so many varieties and the terms used for them were
used interchangeably, so we mysteries, histories, podcast headaches. The first
(19:48):
known written recipe appeared in Sarah Rutledge's eighteen forty seven
work The Carolina Housewife. It called for everything to be
cooked in the same pot and use the traditional way
of rice in the region, which required steaming the rice
over low heat after the rice had been boiled and
excess water had been drained. This ensured that each grain
(20:10):
of rice would be distinct. To be clear, though this
dish or something very similar to it, was being eaten
long before this by enslaved Africans in the region. It's
pretty telling because she was like a governor's daughter. She
was well off, and she was printing a recipe for this.
(20:33):
So after trying the dish at the eighteen ninety five
Atlanta Exposition, a housekeeper from the north wrote in the
Cleveland Leader quote, I tried to make the dish once,
and it was squishy and messy and unlovely to look upon.
Then I the southern one. It was delightful. The grains
(20:57):
of rice and the peas stood apart together as it were.
The purplish peas colored the rice to their own hue,
and the whole was seasoned satisfactorily with savory bacon. I
mean that sounds good. Okay, about the name, I'm just
(21:20):
gonna say it. Nobody knows.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Nobody knows. If you've read a story about it, take
it with a grain of salt, because nobody knows. There
are several theories, some more legitimate than others, but no
one knows for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, because you're dealing with not just several different languages,
but like language groups from like African to Arabic to
European and so. Yeah, and a lot of folk etymology
is coming into it. Yeah, that's no one knows.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
No one knows, no one knows. Another thing no one
knows is for sure. When the black eyed peas became
the standard bean for this dish, as we kind of
alluded to earlier, Adrian Miller theorized in his twenty thirteen
book Soul Food, The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine,
(22:19):
One Plate at a Time that maybe the traditional bean
may have been red peas. Black eyed peas were more available, however,
especially in the North, so when black people moved into
the Northern States during the Great Migration, they used the
available black eyed peas as a substitute for the unavailable
(22:41):
red peace. But again, well, don't know for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, it's sort of assumed that because the Gulla people
were growing these red peas alongside Carolina gold rice, that
was probably it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But ah, we don't know. And like I said, the
names use the terms used for these beans.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Peace.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's a mess, it is, so we're not sure. The
Carolina rice industry pretty much went under nineteen eleven after
economic hardship and a hurricane. Basically it wasn't cost effective
to harvest rice there because mechanical harvesters could be used
because it kind of swamp just can't do it, and
(23:30):
previously depended upon enslaved labor was gone, so rice production
took off in other places. Soon even people in the
Carolinas were largely using rice from other regions which didn't
have the same flavor of Carolina gold rice or the
same nutrition, which is a whole other episode. But there's
like lalls and place about it. It's wild.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, it's again it's complicated because since the harvesting process
was done by hand, it wasn't hold in the same
way that mechanical hollors do stuff. So you have more
of the whole grain left, so at.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Any rate, yes, oh, yes, Well. By the time the
twentieth century rolled around, Hopen John has secured its reputation
for being a food eaten on New Year's for luck
in the southern United States. Articles and advertisements out of
Charleston publications specifically in the early nineteen hundreds mentioned the
(24:33):
dish in connection with New Year's. Hop And John was
also served when President Taft visited Charleston in nineteen oh nine. Okay,
the reason why the dish is associated with New Years
is also a mystery. There are so many mysteries in
this episode. There are many many theories, however, you can
(24:55):
see our New Year's Food episode for more, but there's
like no evidence for any of them.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
So yeah, basically it's like, oh, this was sort of
a special occasion food already and people attributed meanings to it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, essentially, that's my vibe. Yep. Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Those Sea Island red peas were almost lost during the Depression,
as production of them basically stopped in the Sea Island area,
but they've since been kind of brought back. We have
them again today. Also, around this time, some gull of
(25:38):
people were immigrating to other parts of the US and
probably bringing this tradition with them.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yes, and the dish was pretty well known throughout the country.
By the mid twentieth century. Recipes started to be published
in numerous cookbooks or appear in newspapers or magazines, especially
in relation to New Years during the Great Depression. Publications
touted the affordability and nutrition of hopin john as well.
(26:06):
Many of these recipes called for black eyed peas, since
they were available throughout the US, unlike maybe red peas.
Many of them also pivoted away from cooking the ingredients together,
instructing for the ingredients to be cooked separately, mostly because
(26:26):
most people didn't cook rice like people in the Carolinas
did at that time, and the rice itself was different.
But it did mean that a lot of flavor was lost,
and I did read a lot of salty articles about
like perhaps Northerners writing about a dish they had never
really had. But yes, I'm raising my hands as well
(26:51):
and backing away from that. To makeup for that lost flavor,
cook started adding things in and the result was a
wild West of hop and gen recipes, often with things
like hamhowks, spices, sometimes additional vegetables which don't seem wild,
but there are.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Some opinions opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Indeed, indeed, in recent years there have been efforts to
revive historic food ways and foods, including carolina gold, rice
and heirloom beans. I think we should come back and
revisit these topics. Absolutely, It's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And very very deep, just way too much.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Deserving of its own episode. Oh yeah, but this was
definitely an episode that when Lauren suggested it, I made
an audible sound of concern.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So I hope we have done justice here, But please
let us know onions, yes, your recipes, any any thoughts.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You have, of course, of course, and also if you
grew up with a different beans and greens related or
rice and beans related dish that you would like to
tell us about, we would love to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We absolutely, I recently have gotten into rice and beans
dishes like that's my thing right now? Oh yeah, send
it in, Yeah, yeah, yes, But I think that's what
we have to say about Hopping John for now. It is.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Sponsors, and we're back. Thank you, soans, Yes, thank you,
and we're back with a listener.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Man, Happy New Year. Yeah yeah, yes, it is very cold.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I know a lot of you can relate right now.
Uh huh oh my uh. Christine wrote, I was just
listening to the listener Mail twenty one episode and I
had an idea for the Great Savor Feast. During COVID Lockdown,
those of us in the Society for Creative Anachronism missed
(29:37):
our physical gatherings, especially those of us that cooked. I'm
not sure where the ideas started, but an event that
became popular during lockdown was the virtual Feast. The idea
was that someone in the group would devise a menu
and post recipes online, and everyone who wanted to participate
would cook whatever dish they wanted from the menu are
(30:00):
something entirely different if they chose, then everyone would dress
in their best court gear and assemble on a zoom
call at a specified time and eat together. While not
as good as gathering together in person, virtual feast offer
one huge advantage. People who wouldn't normally be able to
(30:20):
attend a particular event could participate in the virtual Feast.
I put a menu together for our Baronies' main event
in October in twenty twenty one, and not only did
we have people from all over Australia signing in, we
had people from all over the known world. Would this
be something that would work for the Saverer Feast? Anyone
(30:44):
who wants to join in can contribute a recipe or
the very least nomination for this ess board. We could
even include our pets.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh oh, that sounds beautiful and bazardous.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
This is so lovely. I'm so happy that this came together.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean leave it to the Society
for Creative Anachronism, but absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
A delightful Yes, gosh, that would be such a wonderful
and chaotic event. We did that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Also combining like everything we love about food with everything
we hate about chewing noises. I mean, you could use
clever muting of mics.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But yeah, it's true. I have to say when we
first started doing and we're trying to figure this out now, listeners,
but when we first had to move our Dungeons and
Dragons game online, I felt like there was an element
of this to it. I think it kind of faded
away because we were all busy. Yeah, you know, we're like,
(32:00):
I just need to get get going. But there was
an element at first of let's make these these things
or these drinks.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Or you know, have you know, like a weird hat
party in the middle of it or whatever.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It was. Yeah, yeah, and it was really nice. Hopefully
we can figure that out in the new year.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Really think so, I think that we are capable human people.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think so. I think I believe that we are.
But this is a very this sounds very lovely.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Oh yeah, and maybe it would work. Maybe it would
work for a saber feast, maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
It would or our long we haven't even really talked
about logistics, but if we did, like a savor dungeons
and dragons, one ship maybe, but something something to think about.
And I like the addition of pets. The nomination of
(33:04):
the cheese. Yeah, excellent things.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
The nomination of the cheese yes, yes, very important, very official.
Anava wrote, I am new to your podcast. I'm alternating
between catching up on old episodes and listening to the
new ones. Needless to say, I have a lot of
catching up to do. However, best I can tell, you
have never done an episode on Cultured Meats Being a
(33:31):
longtime vegetarian and a lab tech, I am fascinated by
this concept. In one of my searches to find a
place I can sample some cultured meat, I came across
this restaurant in Amsterdam called Bistro in Vitro. The way
it works is you make a reservation and place your
order ahead of time. Then you show up at your
appointed day and time and your cultured meats are ready
(33:52):
for you. Their menu has some crazy options such as
Doto nuggets, homegrown charcouterie, and meat fruit. Unfortunately, this eatery
appears to be permanently closed, suggesting the science thus far
is cost prohibitive, hopefully not for long. An Israeli company
called Foresea Foods recently made the news for their lab
(34:13):
grown Unagi. This is being presented as a possible solution
to Japan's over phishing problem. To date, I have yet
to find a place to sample cultured meats. If you
have any connections in the biz that might have a
suggestion for me, please let me know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We have no connections.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Oh, we are connectionless. Unfortunately, no we're not quite. But interestingly,
before so, the way that this whole listener mail Shenanigan's
works is that Annie is very kindly devoted to answering
the listener email and to putting them into these outlines.
(34:54):
And usually I'm good at reading them before I sally
say them out loud on Mike, but today I was
not good at doing that, And so before I realized
that this message existed, I believe I had suggested to
Annie that lab grown meat or cultured meat should be
one of our next few episodes.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
You absolutely did. Yeah, it's like, guess what, we just
got a request?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Oh fabulous. I know that that has been a request before,
but no, we have not done an episode. I think
we might have briefly touched on it in.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Something Impossible Meat, I don't know, but we have not
done one specifically on that. But that is coming up.
And I love this context background that you've given us
be Stro and Vitro.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
That's amazing. I'm so sad it didn't survive. And I mean,
and the basic answer is no, it is not cost
allowable to really do on any kind of scale. But
I mean, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna look into it.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Report back, well, we are going to look into it.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Dodo Nuggets, I'm so confused about meat fruit.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I'm so confused. I love it. There's a lot of
questions this message brings up. Maybe we'll find the answers
when we're doing the research.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Thank you Amsterdam for as always doing something completely bonkers.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Thank you yes, and thanks to both of these listeners
for writing. If you would like to write to us,
you can our emails hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter,
moving into blue Sky, Facebook and Instagram, where our handle
is at all places saber pod and we do hope
to hear from you. Saver is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app podcasts or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan
(37:05):
Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and
we hope that lots of more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to Saber Prediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie and I'm Mon Bugle Bam, and today we
have an episode for you about Hoppin' John, Yes, which
I'm curious listeners if some of you don't know what
that is. Yeah, we living in Georgia, hear some about
it at the very least, certainly on our travels. We
(00:32):
have run into it. We did talk about it, I
believe in our round up episode of our Ashville trip.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
We did. And I actually searched out to see if
that was still on the menu of the place we
were eating.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh yes, it's not. Oh oh interesting, Okay, Yeah, I
just wanted to see how it compared to what I've
now learned.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
But yes, I think I know the answer. But was
there any particular reason this was on your mind? Laura?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, we just had a New Year dawn upon us,
and Hop and John is in some places a traditional
New Year's Day food.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So here we are, here we are. I'll say I
don't have a lot of experience with Hop and John,
and especially after doing this research, I don't have a
lot of experience with traditional Hop and John. But I've
spoken about before I do I hesitate to even say
(01:40):
similar these people yell at me, but I do something
that I would say is in a similar vein of
hop and john.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, you have like a like a beans and greens
and corn bread kind of situation that you do on.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
New Year's Day sometimes rice and cam or pork or something.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Okay, yeah, that is not part of my like original
fan Like I don't remember any original family New Year's
Day food traditions aside from like whatever we felt like consuming.
But you know, just like something nice maybe, but uh
but since I moved, like like since I've been in Atlanta,
(02:22):
I usually try to do the beans and greens and
cornbread thing in some combination. So yeah, it's it's also
just delicious, Like come on, man, like rice and beans
with some collars some like nice hot vinegary collars. Corn bread?
Huh why not every day? Not every day, but you know.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So many holiday meals though, I'm like, why am I
only having this once a year?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Right?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I feel like I could have it at least twice
a year.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I ah man, And I really
doing all this, doing all this reading, I really do
want to track down some of the more traditional ingredients.
Also speaking of We did want to say here at
the top that this is one of the topics that
we haven't done earlier in our seven ish year Savor career,
(03:18):
is that we being a dish that is from the
American South, we really thought that it would be great
to go interview people who had more direct experience with
it before we just get on the mic and talk
about it. And since we don't really travel anymore, we couldn't.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really do that.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But as with everything we cover, we have read many
things and we hope that we are coming at you
with correct information, if not with a ton of personal experience.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, and in fact, when we were traveling, we had
a whole folder dedicated to South Carolina in specific for
this in this case where we were planning to talk
about some of the things involved in this. So yeah,
seek out those people who are in that area and
(04:17):
talking about it. But unfortunately we did not get The
pandemic really put a crimp in our plans. As they say, yeah, yeah,
but you can see our New Year's Traditions Food episode
(04:39):
for more Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Also vaguely related topics black eyed peas, bacon, Biriyanni payea.
Have we done a Collared's episode. I can't I can't remember.
I don't think so, I don't think so. Okay, yeah,
corn bread, Sure, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's hard to say. So much has happened in these
seven years. It's hard to say. Which brings us to
our question, Sure, hop and John, what is it?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, hopin John has been made in many different ways,
but what you're basically looking at is a rice and
beans powllo dish, in which the rice and beans are
cooked together in a single pot using a meaty broth
which has probably been created using water, a smoked pork product,
and some seasonings like aromatic vegetables and herbs. Maybe. Traditionally,
(05:44):
the idea is that at the end of cooking, the
beans and rice should both be tender with like a
little bit of chew, and each grain and bean should
remain whole and separate, like shouldn't be mush, shouldn't be
too saucy. The type of rice and beans you choose
for this and the method of cooking both matter. Modernly,
(06:05):
it is known as a New Year's Day dish, served
alongside cooked greens and corn bread as symbols of wealth
and luck for the coming year. Though yeah, it's a nice,
like hearty one pot dish for any time. Really it's
savory and stick to your ribs and satisfying without being
too heavy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Eating it is like being in the dry, crackling heat
of a wood fire, like smoky and human in this
way that like resounds back through time.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
M hm hm, yes, it is. Like it's very satisfying.
M it's very All those flavors melding together just feel
so filling. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's salty and delicious, and
(07:04):
the starch of the like beans and the greens or whatever,
like it just feels very.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Everything you need, everything you need, yeah, yeah, and Okay.
There is a lot to unpack here about the traditional
and modern interpretations of the dish, most of which we're
going to get into in the history section, because this
is a dish that started in the Gulla or perhaps
(07:32):
Gallagiechi communities in low country South Carolina and has moved
around the United States from there and is also based
in even older food traditions. But sort of briefly, all right,
the beans you're looking to use should stand up to
long cooking. The original was probably a variety called the
(07:53):
Sea Island red pea, which is a type of cowpee,
which is a lagome grown for its seeds or beans
because they keep well when dried and are a good
source of protein see Island. Red peas are this particular
variety that are like deep gold to burgundy red to
purple black in color, and we'll have a purple to
black eye on the concave curve of the bean. The
(08:16):
variety is a separate episode. Modernly people have taken to
using a related variety of cowpee called black eyed peas,
which we've covered before, which are white to cream with
a purple to black eye. And we'll cook up a
little bit softer whatever you use. The beans are boiled
from dry, which lets them put off some of their
flavor and like stuff into the cooking liquid. The rice
(08:40):
that you're looking to use is something long grained and
non aromatic. The original was probably a variety called Carolina Gold,
which was developed in coastal South Carolina during the colonial era.
It's like chewy and nutty and a little bit sweet,
also a separate episode. These days, other non aromatic long
(09:01):
grain varieties may be used instead. The rice is going
to be added to the beans like briefly boiled and
then steamed until it's done. The broth that you're doing
this in okay, So yeah. The liquid in which you
cook your rice and beans was originally probably achieved by
taking water and cooking a salted and smoked ham product
(09:25):
like bacon in with the beans and the rice. These
days people might take a shortcut or like add extra
flavor by using a prepared broth, but lots of recipes
will call for just taking water and then like a
maybe a drier stew purposed ham product like a hamhowk
something like that. Alternatives like smoked turkey might be used.
(09:47):
Additional seasonings for the broth now often include alions like
onion or garlic, maybe some hot and or mild peppers,
other aromatic veg like celery and carrots, maybe some herbs
like bay, sage or ti and the whole concept here
was originally again probably to cook this down until the
(10:08):
beans and rice are both cooked through and all the
liquid has been absorbed while maintaining the integrity of the
rice and the beans, And the idea is generally that
this is a main dish and that you might have
like a side or a topping of other proteins or vegetables.
Four similar concepts. If you've never had this in particular,
(10:32):
you can look to the paluffs or palaos of like
the Spanish Mediterranean, all the way through Central and South Asia,
all the way down along like West Africa's rice region,
like everything from piea to biryani to jallaf rice. But
(10:52):
today there are i would say, extensions of Hop and
John that are made to taste or to suit whatever
ingredients people have on hand. I have seen stewier versions
that people like to break down the beans a little
bit in, or versions that are served with the greens
mixed in and a little bit of pot licker in there.
(11:13):
Pot licker being the liquid that results from cooking down
greens with probably another salted smoked meat product. I've seen
versions with tomato in it. I'm not going to tell
you how to cook your rice and beans. Okay, there
are certainly people who will tell you what Hop and
(11:34):
John is and is not.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
But I am not one of them.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I am as per the usual, raising my hands in
the universally defensive position and backing away slowly from the argument.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I do giving you the baselines.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I do not have a bean in this race. But yeah,
this has come to be a New Year's Day dish
in America, and certainly in America's south, like like South
Atlantic region and beyond that is kind of like more
generally reserved for special occasions of various kinds because it
(12:15):
does take some time and effort to do well. But
I don't know, man, Yeah, eat it on a Thursday,
you do you?
Speaker 1 (12:23):
You do you? Yeah? Wow? What about the nutrition?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
It depends on how you make it, perhaps obviously, but
rice and beans are pretty good for you, you know,
good punch of starch, good punch of protein, complete profile
of amino acids, you know. Yeah, Like eat a vegetable,
don't add too much smoked, salted whatever meat product unless
you want to treats her nice. And he like glared
(12:52):
at me a little bit when I said that.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'm not entirely sure why that was a really involuntary reaction.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Don't tell me how much fake it?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Don't you do?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
We don't have any numbers for you.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
We don't. Well, all right, So one thing, this is
such a this is such like a like a homey
dish that I couldn't I couldn't find any numbers, but
but I did look up the Google trends for hop
and John, which is how how often people are looking
up the term on Google. And there is predictably a
(13:33):
huge spike every like late December, and specifically in the
American coastal South. So there you go.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It gets like increasingly less likely that people would search
for it the further away from this region that you get. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I would really love listeners for you all.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Oh my goodness, please do please do.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, well, we do have a history that might explain
some of why that is.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yes, yes we do. But first we've got a quick
break for a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay
to start, shout out to Robert Moss's article the Historic
Problem with Hop and John over at Serious Eats for
being really helpful and putting this outline together. I also
really appreciated that all of this very informative information was
(14:48):
couched in the author's anger how Hop and John is
no longer good.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
By which he means like the ingredients that made it
good are no longer widely available or widely used, and
that therefore every iteration of Hop and John that he's
had or tried to make personally has been kind of lackluster.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
It was very fun because you would be reading it
it's so in depth, and then it would he would
remind you that this is why. Yeah, it's not good.
In this reason, it's great. I highly recommend it. Good article.
It is such a great like we need to talk
about carolina gold and all these other things. But yes,
(15:41):
big shout out okay. According to food historian and researcher
Karen Hess, hop and John is a bean palau created
by the African diaspora in the Carolina ricelands. To make
a Carolina palau, rice from the region was prewashed, simmered
in broth until it's mostly absorbed, and served with some
(16:05):
type of protein. Often the protein was something like chicken, shrimp,
or beans was cooked along with the rice. The tradition
of simmering the rice with beans in broth originated in Africa,
and regions of the Americas that had significant populations of
people from Africa created some version of this with what
(16:28):
they had.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah think of like red beans and rice in Louisiana
or black beans and rice in Cuba.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yes, And in South Carolina, the variety that developed was
hopin John, which was made with bacon, peas and rice
and espeas.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
And beans a type of bean referred to as a pea.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yes, so much confusion, okay. Enslaved West Africans were shipped
to the Carolinas because of their knowledge of how to
grow rice. The rice and peas of what is now
that region originated in Africa too, and they were brought
over by traders through the slave trade and planted in
(17:13):
that region.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And this diaspora of peoples in this specific region of
the Carolinas formed the Gulla culture in what would become
the United States. There were varieties of rice and rice
type grains in the Americas before European colonization brought these
peoples and these agricultural products over, but rice like really
(17:38):
took off after colonization because these introduced varieties were really
popular colonial crops, as were various types of beans. And
note here that like rice and beans planted in conjunction
and or in rotation with each other helped keep the
soil fit for planting because legomes helped fix nitrogen in
(17:59):
the soil which plants used to grow. And again see
above our nutrition section, eating them together is nutritious. It
provides you a complete profile of amino acids. So this
is like a very old and very smart way of
sustaining both the environment and yourself. And this is technology
(18:19):
that was brought over by what would become the galliculture
in the Carolinas.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, so the original recipes of Hopin John called for
a pint each of rice and peas beans and a
pound of bacon. Early recipes called for red peas or
cow peas, which may or may not have been black
eyed peas. It's very confusing.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Again, cowpeas is a larger category that both these these
red colored black eyed peas and white colored black eyed
peas are sub varieties of but right the terminology is
a little bit borked.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's definitely pork. And we'll talk about that a little
bit more later, because, yeah, there are a lot of
difficulties when it comes to recreating this dish, as per
Moss's article and serious eats using our modern ingredients. Most
of us don't have easy access to Carolina gold rice.
(19:21):
The pork used as different, as is the process of
making the bacon. And it is very difficult to know
what sort of beans were traditionally used because there were
so many varieties and the terms used for them were
used interchangeably, so we mysteries, histories, podcast headaches. The first
(19:48):
known written recipe appeared in Sarah Rutledge's eighteen forty seven
work The Carolina Housewife. It called for everything to be
cooked in the same pot and use the traditional way
of rice in the region, which required steaming the rice
over low heat after the rice had been boiled and
excess water had been drained. This ensured that each grain
(20:10):
of rice would be distinct. To be clear, though this
dish or something very similar to it, was being eaten
long before this by enslaved Africans in the region. It's
pretty telling because she was like a governor's daughter. She
was well off, and she was printing a recipe for this.
(20:33):
So after trying the dish at the eighteen ninety five
Atlanta Exposition, a housekeeper from the north wrote in the
Cleveland Leader quote, I tried to make the dish once,
and it was squishy and messy and unlovely to look upon.
Then I the southern one. It was delightful. The grains
(20:57):
of rice and the peas stood apart together as it were.
The purplish peas colored the rice to their own hue,
and the whole was seasoned satisfactorily with savory bacon. I
mean that sounds good. Okay, about the name, I'm just
(21:20):
gonna say it. Nobody knows.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Nobody knows.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Nobody knows. If you've read a story about it, take
it with a grain of salt, because nobody knows. There
are several theories, some more legitimate than others, but no
one knows for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, because you're dealing with not just several different languages,
but like language groups from like African to Arabic to
European and so. Yeah, and a lot of folk etymology
is coming into it. Yeah, that's no one knows.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
No one knows, no one knows. Another thing no one
knows is for sure. When the black eyed peas became
the standard bean for this dish, as we kind of
alluded to earlier, Adrian Miller theorized in his twenty thirteen
book Soul Food, The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine,
(22:19):
One Plate at a Time that maybe the traditional bean
may have been red peas. Black eyed peas were more available, however,
especially in the North, so when black people moved into
the Northern States during the Great Migration, they used the
available black eyed peas as a substitute for the unavailable
(22:41):
red peace. But again, well, don't know for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No, it's sort of assumed that because the Gulla people
were growing these red peas alongside Carolina gold rice, that
was probably it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But ah, we don't know. And like I said, the
names use the terms used for these beans.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Peace.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's a mess, it is, so we're not sure. The
Carolina rice industry pretty much went under nineteen eleven after
economic hardship and a hurricane. Basically it wasn't cost effective
to harvest rice there because mechanical harvesters could be used
because it kind of swamp just can't do it, and
(23:30):
previously depended upon enslaved labor was gone, so rice production
took off in other places. Soon even people in the
Carolinas were largely using rice from other regions which didn't
have the same flavor of Carolina gold rice or the
same nutrition, which is a whole other episode. But there's
like lalls and place about it. It's wild.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, it's again it's complicated because since the harvesting process
was done by hand, it wasn't hold in the same
way that mechanical hollors do stuff. So you have more
of the whole grain left, so at.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Any rate, yes, oh, yes, Well. By the time the
twentieth century rolled around, Hopen John has secured its reputation
for being a food eaten on New Year's for luck
in the southern United States. Articles and advertisements out of
Charleston publications specifically in the early nineteen hundreds mentioned the
(24:33):
dish in connection with New Year's. Hop And John was
also served when President Taft visited Charleston in nineteen oh nine. Okay,
the reason why the dish is associated with New Years
is also a mystery. There are so many mysteries in
this episode. There are many many theories, however, you can
(24:55):
see our New Year's Food episode for more, but there's
like no evidence for any of them.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
So yeah, basically it's like, oh, this was sort of
a special occasion food already and people attributed meanings to it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, essentially, that's my vibe. Yep. Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Those Sea Island red peas were almost lost during the Depression,
as production of them basically stopped in the Sea Island area,
but they've since been kind of brought back. We have
them again today. Also, around this time, some gull of
(25:38):
people were immigrating to other parts of the US and
probably bringing this tradition with them.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yes, and the dish was pretty well known throughout the country.
By the mid twentieth century. Recipes started to be published
in numerous cookbooks or appear in newspapers or magazines, especially
in relation to New Years during the Great Depression. Publications
touted the affordability and nutrition of hopin john as well.
(26:06):
Many of these recipes called for black eyed peas, since
they were available throughout the US, unlike maybe red peas.
Many of them also pivoted away from cooking the ingredients together,
instructing for the ingredients to be cooked separately, mostly because
(26:26):
most people didn't cook rice like people in the Carolinas
did at that time, and the rice itself was different.
But it did mean that a lot of flavor was lost,
and I did read a lot of salty articles about
like perhaps Northerners writing about a dish they had never
really had. But yes, I'm raising my hands as well
(26:51):
and backing away from that. To makeup for that lost flavor,
cook started adding things in and the result was a
wild West of hop and gen recipes, often with things
like hamhowks, spices, sometimes additional vegetables which don't seem wild,
but there are.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Some opinions opinions.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Indeed, indeed, in recent years there have been efforts to
revive historic food ways and foods, including carolina gold, rice
and heirloom beans. I think we should come back and
revisit these topics. Absolutely, It's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
And very very deep, just way too much.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Deserving of its own episode. Oh yeah, but this was
definitely an episode that when Lauren suggested it, I made
an audible sound of concern.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So I hope we have done justice here, But please
let us know onions, yes, your recipes, any any thoughts.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
You have, of course, of course, and also if you
grew up with a different beans and greens related or
rice and beans related dish that you would like to
tell us about, we would love to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We absolutely, I recently have gotten into rice and beans
dishes like that's my thing right now? Oh yeah, send
it in, Yeah, yeah, yes, But I think that's what
we have to say about Hopping John for now. It is.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
Sponsors, and we're back. Thank you, soans, Yes, thank you,
and we're back with a listener.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Man, Happy New Year. Yeah yeah, yes, it is very cold.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I know a lot of you can relate right now.
Uh huh oh my uh. Christine wrote, I was just
listening to the listener Mail twenty one episode and I
had an idea for the Great Savor Feast. During COVID Lockdown,
those of us in the Society for Creative Anachronism missed
(29:37):
our physical gatherings, especially those of us that cooked. I'm
not sure where the ideas started, but an event that
became popular during lockdown was the virtual Feast. The idea
was that someone in the group would devise a menu
and post recipes online, and everyone who wanted to participate
would cook whatever dish they wanted from the menu are
(30:00):
something entirely different if they chose, then everyone would dress
in their best court gear and assemble on a zoom
call at a specified time and eat together. While not
as good as gathering together in person, virtual feast offer
one huge advantage. People who wouldn't normally be able to
(30:20):
attend a particular event could participate in the virtual Feast.
I put a menu together for our Baronies' main event
in October in twenty twenty one, and not only did
we have people from all over Australia signing in, we
had people from all over the known world. Would this
be something that would work for the Saverer Feast? Anyone
(30:44):
who wants to join in can contribute a recipe or
the very least nomination for this ess board. We could
even include our pets.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh oh, that sounds beautiful and bazardous.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
This is so lovely. I'm so happy that this came together.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean leave it to the Society
for Creative Anachronism, but absolutely.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
A delightful Yes, gosh, that would be such a wonderful
and chaotic event. We did that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Also combining like everything we love about food with everything
we hate about chewing noises. I mean, you could use
clever muting of mics.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But yeah, it's true. I have to say when we
first started doing and we're trying to figure this out now, listeners,
but when we first had to move our Dungeons and
Dragons game online, I felt like there was an element
of this to it. I think it kind of faded
away because we were all busy. Yeah, you know, we're like,
(32:00):
I just need to get get going. But there was
an element at first of let's make these these things
or these drinks.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Or you know, have you know, like a weird hat
party in the middle of it or whatever.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It was. Yeah, yeah, and it was really nice. Hopefully
we can figure that out in the new year.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Really think so, I think that we are capable human people.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think so. I think I believe that we are.
But this is a very this sounds very lovely.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Oh yeah, and maybe it would work. Maybe it would
work for a saber feast, maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
It would or our long we haven't even really talked
about logistics, but if we did, like a savor dungeons
and dragons, one ship maybe, but something something to think about.
And I like the addition of pets. The nomination of
(33:04):
the cheese. Yeah, excellent things.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
The nomination of the cheese yes, yes, very important, very official.
Anava wrote, I am new to your podcast. I'm alternating
between catching up on old episodes and listening to the
new ones. Needless to say, I have a lot of
catching up to do. However, best I can tell, you
have never done an episode on Cultured Meats Being a
(33:31):
longtime vegetarian and a lab tech, I am fascinated by
this concept. In one of my searches to find a
place I can sample some cultured meat, I came across
this restaurant in Amsterdam called Bistro in Vitro. The way
it works is you make a reservation and place your
order ahead of time. Then you show up at your
appointed day and time and your cultured meats are ready
(33:52):
for you. Their menu has some crazy options such as
Doto nuggets, homegrown charcouterie, and meat fruit. Unfortunately, this eatery
appears to be permanently closed, suggesting the science thus far
is cost prohibitive, hopefully not for long. An Israeli company
called Foresea Foods recently made the news for their lab
(34:13):
grown Unagi. This is being presented as a possible solution
to Japan's over phishing problem. To date, I have yet
to find a place to sample cultured meats. If you
have any connections in the biz that might have a
suggestion for me, please let me know.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
We have no connections.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Oh, we are connectionless. Unfortunately, no we're not quite. But interestingly,
before so, the way that this whole listener mail Shenanigan's
works is that Annie is very kindly devoted to answering
the listener email and to putting them into these outlines.
(34:54):
And usually I'm good at reading them before I sally
say them out loud on Mike, but today I was
not good at doing that, And so before I realized
that this message existed, I believe I had suggested to
Annie that lab grown meat or cultured meat should be
one of our next few episodes.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
You absolutely did. Yeah, it's like, guess what, we just
got a request?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Oh fabulous. I know that that has been a request before,
but no, we have not done an episode. I think
we might have briefly touched on it in.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Something Impossible Meat, I don't know, but we have not
done one specifically on that. But that is coming up.
And I love this context background that you've given us
be Stro and Vitro.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
That's amazing. I'm so sad it didn't survive. And I mean,
and the basic answer is no, it is not cost
allowable to really do on any kind of scale. But
I mean, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna look into it.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Report back, well, we are going to look into it.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Dodo Nuggets, I'm so confused about meat fruit.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I'm so confused. I love it. There's a lot of
questions this message brings up. Maybe we'll find the answers
when we're doing the research.
Speaker 5 (36:26):
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Thank you Amsterdam for as always doing something completely bonkers.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Thank you yes, and thanks to both of these listeners
for writing. If you would like to write to us,
you can our emails hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
We're also on social media. You can find us on Twitter,
moving into blue Sky, Facebook and Instagram, where our handle
is at all places saber pod and we do hope
to hear from you. Saver is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app podcasts or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers Dylan
(37:05):
Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, and
we hope that lots of more good things are coming
your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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