July 4, 2025 • 38 mins
This bittersweet, peppery herb has a bit of licorice flavor and a slightly serpentine history. Anney and Lauren dig into that history – plus the botany – of tarragon.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to Saber production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Anniris and I'm Lauren vogel Baum, and today we
have an episode for you about Tarragon, Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Which is an episode I fondly referred to as etymology Headache.
Was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
There are a whole list of herbs and spices that
I've got in our ideas sheet and this was one
of them, and it's kind of it's kind of a nice,
bright summary sort of herb.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So yeah, Yeah, I have to say in the initial
search results when I saw this, what I didn't know
at the time would be Etymology Headache. It does have
a lot of very fun names. I was very intrigued.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, and dragon shows up in a lot of the names,
so that's always fun.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, that was a pretty good hook. I mean, I know,
I know I've had tarragon before, but I can't like
recall it very specifically. But in one of the articles
that I use in researching this, they were talking about
how French cuisine, or at least modern French cuisine in
(01:29):
New York specifically, was moving away from Tarragon, which had
been so closely associated with it for so long, and
they were listing all these restaurants that, you know, don't
use tarragon anymore. No, but they were like, but there
is one holdout the Cuckoo. I've been there, and I
(01:50):
was just there in December, and I got to meet
up with the editor of the stuff when I never
told you book. Gave a van wherever you'd get your
books because we never met person to person, and she
suggested this restaurant and I happen to get the one
dish that had tarragon in it, the sweetbreads with tarragon.
(02:12):
I was like, oh, it was so good. Oh that
sounds lovely. Yeah, but it made me very happy that
I saw that the restaurant name. I had to look
at the menu immediately. I yes, that is what I got.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh delightful. Yeah. I actually don't like tarragon as much
as I think I'm going to like. Every time I
get some, I'm like, ah, it's like I don't dislike it.
I'm always just kind of like, oh, right, it's sort
of annest flavored. I feel like I always think I'm
going to like it more because part of my brain
(02:47):
still thinks it's fancy.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, due to.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like heavy inclusion in things like the Silver Palette cookbook,
which we're going to talk about later. So here we are.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yes, absolutely, we're speaking of for past episodes. You can
see our episode on hawk cuisine. Mm, that was a
whole other side quest that I could not go down.
I did not have the time. No this episode. No
other herbs that we've done, licorice, peppercorns.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's some overlap in there, maybe absinthe. Yeah, yes, so.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
That is quite the list of topics. Best to our question. Tarragon,
what is it?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Well, Tarragon is an herb with tender, narrow green leaves
that tastes of annis or or like licorice or fennel,
maybe kind of bittersweet, a little herbal medicinal, kind of
tangy and peppery. It's used fresh or dried, and all
kinds of savory dishes like roasts or stews, particularly with chicken,
(03:56):
our fish, or in like egg or vegetable dishes, maybe
chopped fine, in fresh salads or in various sauces and dressings.
It's often used alongside other herbs for like like like
multi dimensional herbal properties. It can also be used in
sweet dishes and drinks to add a little bit of spice,
(04:16):
perhaps especially alongside fruity flavors. It's sort of cool and
pike in both at the same time. It's the herbal
equivalent of like stepping from a warm sunny day into
a cool room, like like having that residual heat on
your skin and getting that that that cool woosh mmmm.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, that is a lovely feeling, especially right now it's
so so hot outside.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So I moved away from Florida anyway. Botanical name Artemisia
dragon coolest Dracunculus. Sure, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Tarragon is a sort of shrubby scre ruby herbaceous plant
in the sunflower family astorossier. It's related to stuff like
mugwart and wormwood. It grows lots of soft, like non
woody stems from these underground rhizomes. The plant's true roots
grow into the ground off of those rhizomes. Stems go up,
(05:17):
roots go down. Yeah. The stems can reach about three
feet or a meter in height. The leaves are narrow
and sort of blade like, maybe an inch or two long,
like three to six centimeters, and they're this like soft
to glossy bluish green in color. It does grow wild,
but the wild varieties don't often have a good flavor.
A couple of different cultivars developed for their flavor are
(05:38):
the ones that you're going to encounter for culinary use.
Those two main varieties are French and Russian terragon. French
is more anisey, a little sweeter, and more finicky to
grow like. It will not tolerate frost. Russian is more
mild and bitter, but more hardy. Both are d route resistant,
which is cool. What's known as Mexican tarragon is from
(06:00):
a different genus altogether, but apparently tastes really similar to
French tarragon, but not really what we're talking about today.
In French and Russian tarragon and wild tarragon, the tops
of the stems will grow these clusters of small white
to yellow to green flowers that may develop seeds, but
not all cultivars do, and in any case, the plant
(06:22):
does propagate more readily from those rhizomes, which will spread
horizontally under the surface of the ground. The flowers are edible, too,
but we're mostly interested in the leaves. You can harvest
whole stems or just strip the leaves. In the supermarket,
you'll usually find packs of whole stems. You can toss
those whole into soups or stews to be taken out
(06:43):
at the end of cooking, or you can strip the
leaves and use those whole or chopped. Cooking tarragon for
too long can turn it bitter, so you might want
to add it towards the end of cooking, or use
it in dishes that don't have a long cooking time
to begin with, like eggs or fish or cream sauces.
And it does lose flavor when it's dried, so it's
best to use fresh or frozen when you can. And yeah,
(07:07):
tarragon is either native or successfully introduced to basically the
entire Northern hemisphere, so it plays roles in a lot
of different cuisines. France, where it is not native, really
picked it up during Elt cuisine, and so it is
a key ingredient in modern classics like Breneise sauce, which
(07:29):
is butter and eggyulk with vinegar, shallatte and tarragon, and
the chopped herb blend Fiends herb, which is parsley, chives,
sherville and tarragon. Tarragon is sometimes called referred to in
French as the King of Herbs. It's also really popular
as an ingredient in flavored vinegars and mustards and cheeses.
(07:50):
And I did see a lot of suggestions for using
tarragon in pasta and potato salads and to just generally
brighten up kind of savory ingredients like mushrooms or be
sor asparagus. Yeah, it is furthermore processed into oil powder
and paste for use in the processed food and beverage industry.
There's a popular, popular question mark soft drink around like
(08:12):
Central Asia and former Soviet Union areas called Tarkuna or tarkun,
which is flavored with it's soda flavored with tarragon, and
it's colored like bright green, bright green soda tarragon flavored.
And those words that I probably just mispronounced, I did
look them up but couldn't find anything really reliable. Those
(08:33):
are the Georgian and Russian words for tarragon, respectively. So
also one of several etymological notes I'm going to be
making here today. The flavor and or fragrance compound estragoal
was named for the French word for tarragon, So that
shows up in perfumes and stuff a lot and other
(08:55):
personal care products.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Oh, etymology, you really came for us in this one.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah. Yeah, this one was one of those cases of
those like like ancient peoples were not thinking about modern
podcasters at all.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
How could they? But I have to say I did
appreciate how I've found so many instances of people arguing
about it in like medieval times, and I.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Was like, yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You're not really consuming enough to make a difference. But
tarragon does contain a lot of micronutrients that can help
your body do stuff, and it has been used in
various traditional medicines for a long time and is indeed
under investigation for various properties like antibacterial and anti fungal
effects in food preservation and for extracts in various medicines.
(09:54):
But you know saber motto, before you eat medicinal quantities
of anything should check with a doctor or other medical
professional who is not us, because bodies are complicated. Nutrition
is complicated.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
There you go, our research is needed. Well, we don't
really have numbers for you, but we have a fun
on back to fun quote.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I was looking up I was looking up like like
global production numbers for tarragon and like global market value,
and the numbers that I saw were so wildly different
in every source that I was like, this is not
this is not an actual number. I'm not going to
try to report this. But cultural note, James Beard is
quoted as having said, I believe that if I ever
(10:39):
had to practice cannibalism, I might manage if there were
enough tarragon around.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It's such a fun quote because I feel like it
has a couple of interpretations. One is that you like
tarragon enough. One is that flag the flavor of tarragon
is enough to distract you mm hmmm. And the other
is like I can eat the tarra god. So I
guess how turned to my fellow human.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I think it's some of those first too. But but
I like that, Yeah, I like that you're thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I think it's that he appreciated it so much.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
But I'm just saying, if this were a Fay deal,
that would be real shaky ground.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, yes, yeah, indeed, speaking of shaky ground, we got
to get into some of this etymology mess.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, we we do, we do, and we are we
we are. But first We are going to take a
quick break for a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay. So, historians suspect
that tarragon, specifically wild Russian tarragon, originated in Central and
Western Asia. French tarragon propagated with roots or cuttings, came
later a few centuries ago. It doesn't appear in any
European botanical literature until the fifteen hundred. So the general
(12:19):
consensus is that it's a newer herb and the scheme
of things, at least to Europe. That being said, new
historical discoveries happen all the time, and it could be
one of those things where historical descriptions and naming conventions
mix it up with something else. There are definitely multiple
instances in medieval text where authors complain about mistranslations leading
(12:43):
to mix ups with other herbs when it comes to tarragon.
We're going to talk about a few of them. It's
almost comical how many names it has gone by.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yep, yeah, yep, yep. But okay, it does seem that
tarragon started out in like Mongolia and Siberia and slowly
spread out from there through seed dispersal and human movement,
and somewhere along the line people selected for what we
(13:15):
now call the French variety, which yes, is a sterile variety.
Does not propagate from seeds. It has to be propagated
from rhizome cuttings. But that happened a long time before
it hit France. Probably, Tarragon was written up in an
Arab botanical text in the twelve hundreds as a seasoning
(13:35):
for vegetables and also a sleep aid.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yes, and in some Middle Eastern countries, tarragon has a
centuries long culinary history, winding up in several dishes that
are still around today. It was also used.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
In traditional medicines in Central Asia.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, Tiragon likely arrived in Europe towards the end of
the Middle Ages via Arab traders, or perhaps through the
Mongol invasion of Europe in the twelve hundreds.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Or possibly even earlier around the eight hundreds with the
Arab movement into parts of what's now Italy, or all
three of these things.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
We don't know. No one seems to know, no one
is sure, no one is sure, all right, So in
the early days it was used medicinally in a wide
range of ways. In Asia, the Middle East, and Europe,
perhaps specifically when it came to gastro intestinal distress, but
really in a huge range of ways. And speaking of
(14:33):
medicinal applications, the first known European mention of tarragon is
from a fifteen thirty six book about medicinal plants by
Jean Rouelle. Ruelle was a French physician, botanist and scholar,
and the book was published first in Paris. The discussion
of Tarragon is brief. The author discusses the roots and
translations and mistranslations of the name of the Arab, how
(14:56):
it grows, how it's used, and how it tastes. However,
some sources claim that Tarragon was mentioned farlier, even by
our old pal Plenty and Dioscurides. On top of that,
Ruel was known for translating the work of Dioskerites, which
did not mention Tarragon. But then Ruell wrote an original
(15:19):
work based on this translation of Diaskerites and added his
own bit about Tarragon. So I think some people attribute
the mention of Tarragon to Diascrites, Okay, at least in
my mind, that's part of the issue. And I same
with Plenty. I think the same thing happened, But there
(15:40):
is a lot of historical confusion around the name of
tarragon what it actually referred to when people were using it.
Most sources I read posit that Plenty, Diascurrites and the
like were referring to a different species arab Dragcunculus, which
is not I looked it up in is not the
(16:00):
same thing, and is also that scientific name is not
even used anymore from what I can tell.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, and aram is either way a totally different genus.
It's separate plant, separate plants, but also called dracunculus.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yes, yes, And in fact, Plenty is often credited with
giving terragon or not Terragon, as the case might be,
its name and the first century CE because carrying it
on your person, according to him, provided protection from snake bites.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Okay, so yes, the etymology here is whibbley wobbly, because
we're not sure exactly what plant different people were referring to.
But it has been suggested that the name terragon roots
from this Greek word for dragon dragon, and that the
plant was called that because the rhizomes have a kind
of like knobby snakelike sort of appearance. Or maybe that
(16:59):
the leaves look like serpents tongues. I've read both, so
like right, like you get dracon and that goes to
an arab tarkon and then terragon.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Some have suggested that this association with serpents is why
the plant was thought to have these anti snake medicinal
properties of one kind or another. While we're here, the
genus name Artemisia comes from the association of the goddess
Artemis with some dang plant in like the mugwort, wormwood,
(17:34):
tarragon family or not or a different plant.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Again, there's like a bunch of historical confusion here.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yes, but all very interesting and great name landed on
a great name.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's like metal. That's like
really cool, very cool.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Okay. So after this we kind of get a little
bit of a cascade of other medicinal plant books sort
of arguing about this.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, like they didn't have Blue Sky, so they had
to do it through publication.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And that they did so. A fifteen seventy eight text
first published in fifteen fifty four but later updated, written
by Rimbert du Dunn's, a Belgian botanist and physician tauted
the benefits of tarragon, especially when it came to stomach
ailments and feminist bites. This work was significant when it
comes to tarragon because it was the first book in
(18:36):
this medico botanical space to give tarragon an entire entry
under the name dragon, complete with illustration. It was listed
amongst other edible plants that have a sort of bright,
spicy flavor with when fresh, so like a rocket or rugula,
things like that. Do Dunes recommended it for salads. He
(19:00):
also mentions that it wasn't common outside of France, apart
from a few cities in Belgium where the French had
introduced Then in fifteen fifty eight, Italian physician Pietro Andreya
Mattioli described tarragon as having an extremely acrid taste. He
wrote briefly about the belief some held that tarragon didn't
(19:23):
grow naturally but instead required farmers to place linen seeds
and hollowed out onions or something like an onion and
bury them. And he ran his own experiment and it
didn't work. Dismissed the whole thing. He was like, this
is just not true.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That's accurate. It's not true that that's what you have
to do to grow terragon. But again, probably the type
of tarragon that they were growing even at this point
was French tarragon, which is propagated through the rhizome. So yes, yes,
he was onto something with the seeds not being plantable, yeah,
(20:02):
step by step, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Which speaking of then, John Gerard published in fifteen ninety
seven his work The Herbal Out of London, including a
translation of Doe Dune's writings about tarragon along with his
own notes around medicinal properties and the name in other languages.
He also describes how in Greek myth, the fisherman Glaucus
(20:24):
became immortal after eating tarragon. However, it seems he mistranslated
a word for tarragon, so there's like, there's a plant
you eat and it gives you this immortality, and he
thought it was tarragon, but I think the word he
mistranslated was actually a descriptor for the plant, not actually
(20:45):
the plant.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So anyway, that kind of got dismissed, and I believe
Doe Dunes came out with another edition of his book
and was like, I don't know where your sources are
but that's not correct. It really was a whole back
and forth. There were a couple more after this, but
(21:07):
then it kind of settled down for a minute. English
gardens were growing at Tarragon by the sixteenth century. Europeans
brought tarragon over with them to the America's beginning in
the sixteen hundreds, but it seemed to remain pretty niche
at first, at least in the US.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
But wild tarragon did spread in North America, or was
possibly already here. A few ethnobotanies list tarragon as a
traditional medicine for peoples like the Chippewa and the Chequetnic.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So yes, ooh and then okay. By the eighteenth and
nineteenth century, Europe had generally embraced tarragon as a spice,
but none more so than France. They added it to
a whole variety of things, including biernet sauce, a devoration
(22:02):
of the French mother sauce holland Dais, which, by the way,
we're just gonna have to do a whole episode on
these sauces.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
On the sauce as we are. Yeah, I've been putting
that off because of all of the heck in French
that I am going to mispronounce.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
That is fair. That is fair. U. Well, the first
recipe for beernais appeared in eighteen thirty six, or that's
the general consensus. Future episode. Yeah, august Escoffier's landmark nineteen
oh three work Leaguide Colinaire mentioned to Tarragon over sixty times.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
All right.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
He was also the first to define France's fiene herbs
in nineteen oh three, which is a seasoning of equal
parts Parsley, Chives, Sherville and Tarragon. So yeah, it was
a big part of that, like new classic French cuisine,
Hawk cuisine.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, huge, it was everywhere in there.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah. Yeah, but that's future as will deal with that
because I tried to fit it all into this episode
and I was like, no, we can do all episode
just on Tarra God and Friends.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, during that specific time period. Yes. Meanwhile, that Tarragon
soda pop that I mentioned was invented in eighteen eighty
seven by this Georgian pharmacist by the name of U.
I'm so sorry if I mess this up a metrofun Leginze,
I think I'm not sure. I'm so sorry. Yeah, But
(23:31):
he was working with a bunch of different herbs and
fruits and spices to make syrups for soft drinks. The
tarragon one did get popular throughout the USSR in the
nineteen eighties when, which is when it saw mass production
and is still available and is always just absolutely emerald.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Green listeners right in. Yeah, yeah, okay, stepfing back a bit.
After returning to the US from Europe, famous Francophile Thomas Jefferson,
that guy ran into trouble getting his hands on tarragon,
which had been readily available while he was in France,
(24:09):
and Jefferson had been particularly taken with tarragon mustard, so
he really wanted to make this. He went on this
whole quest to get seeds to grow his own tarragon,
but he ran into dead ends at every turn. And yeah,
part of the problem was that tarragon grown for culinary
purposes was the French variety propagated using root division or cutting.
(24:31):
So yeah, he just wasn't having it. Wasn't going to work. Yeah,
wasn't going to work. So he sent this message, this
really lamenting message about his tarragon loves to horticulturists Bernard
McMahon in eighteen o six and McMahon sent him some
roots to grow his own. I think a month later
(24:51):
was like here You're.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Like, here you go, bud.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, just good luck. But still it was not smooth sailing.
Over several years in the early eighteen hundreds, Jefferson struggled
to cultivate tarragon at Monticello, where he lived. Based on
the sources I read, he never really succeeded, but he
did turn more people onto tarragon in the United States.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's honestly, probably too wet around Monticello.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Wants it to be a little bit drier. But or
I don't know, maybe it was karma for him being
a terrible heck in person.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There could be any number of things. Yeah, he also
moved it a lot. I think he was I couldn't tell,
but it sounded like he was pretty impatient. He really
wanted this mustard, which I'm sure wasn't helping with the crow. Yeah. Yes,
But in either gate, whatever happens. Starting in the eighteen hundreds,
(25:52):
recipes for things like tarragon vinegar started appearing in American cookbooks,
and then in the mid nineteen hundreds, Julia Child helped
popularize tarragon and French dishes and spice mixes that called
for it for mainstream American audiences. And then something I
(26:12):
never heard of, but it sounds like you had Lauren.
The team behind the Silver Palette carry out shop in
New York City as Shila Lukens and Julie Russo, included
several recipes that called for tarragon, and their two cookbooks,
The Silver Palette and The New Basics. These books came
out in the nineteen eighties and they were incredibly popular.
(26:35):
They wove together American in international cuisines, and they created
some new takes on old classics. When it came to tarragon,
a lot of Americans did have this sort of long
associated thing where they always thought of it as this
is for francy French dishes, that's where it belongs. I
can't make those, But these cookbooks featured recipes in other
(26:59):
ways using it in other ways, like in tarragon pea
soup and teargn chicken salad, and so the addition of
tarragon was accessible, but it made many feel like the
resulting dish was fancier, which I think is what you
were talking about. The top one.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, well, we'll definitely have to do a
whole episode about the whole silver palette thing. These were
two cookbooks that I grew up with my parents using
extensively at home. And also because because my dad was
a professional cook or chef for you know, whatever, whatever
(27:35):
you want to call someone who smokes too many cigarettes
outside of kitchens, he took a lot of inspiration from
that kind of cooking.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
So, yeah, I would love to come back to it.
Because I was I was looking just out of curiosity
tarragon dishes available near me, and so many of them
were things that were in this cookbook. I was just
kind of cross matching, so it had quickly out of impacts.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, it's really emblematic of those books are really emblematic
of the kind of nineteen eighties wave of novelle cuisine
that was talking about. Yeah, just like, get good ingredients,
don't mess them up, try to eat nice fresh things.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Interesting. Yeah, yes, another interesting thing. In two thousand and one,
the publication su Herb had a feature specifically highlighting tarragon
titled only Elegance. I tried so hard to track this
down so I could read it, and I could only
find like a small shot oh, desperate to read it.
(28:46):
But a lot of the newer stuff I've read made
it sound like Tarragon is kind of old fashioned and stuffy. Now,
like the thing that I was talking about with the
restaurant I went to the Cuckoo where they're like, that's
the only restaurant that uses it. They were saying it
was at this high and now yeah you can't.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I guess. I guess it probably especially for right
for like a certain caliber of restaurant that has gotten
burnt out on doing like classical cuisine type dishes. They're like, no,
no more terragone. Man, I'm sick of Tarragon. We did enough,
Terragon done. We're done there, Let's move on to literally
(29:31):
anything else.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
But it's nice. It's nice.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that, you know, like like
something like fennel, you know, it's just gonna come in
waves of popularity where like suddenly it's going to be
the it's spice for everything, the herb for everything, and
but then people are gonna be like, no, we're sick
of that. Now.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I agree. I agree because I feel like I've seen it,
like maybe even in cocktails and things. So I thought
it was fancy in that way, but maybe it's maybe
it's more niche right now, but it'll come back and
have another big moment. But yeah, listeners, let us know
(30:17):
if there are ways that you like to use it,
or dishes that you love that have tarragon in them.
We would love to hear from you. But I think
that's what we have to say about tarragn for now.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It is. We do have some listener mail for you already, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you. Now
we're back with name stepping inside cool room after being outside.
Hmmmmmm okay. Janet sent an email with the subject line
(31:10):
speaking of desecrated coconut that reads, I was so excited
when I heard my last letter read aloud. You really
brought both the whimsy and horror of Lamington Pizza to life.
For the listeners, please find attached pictures of my bond
Me inspired Schmorgas tort extravaganza witcher cake, so named for
(31:34):
reasons that I promise made since during lockdown, much like
the tsunami of Witcher fanfic, also written in twenty twenty.
It is made only using ingredients mentioned are shown by
Joey Batty and his Chaos Grimlin masterpiece of a YouTube
video Joey's Great Witcher Bakeoff. Therefore, my bond me Schmorgas
(31:56):
Torte is made by spreading pet over gluten free non
or lebonese bread and layering with a salad of red
wine and sugar pickled carrots, avocado, cucumber, baby spinach, and
fresh basil, then dressed with lime juice, chili flakes, and
more red wine vinegar, then loaded with coconut and pepper
(32:17):
fried beef and omelet as proteins. The torte is then
liberally frosted with strained Greek yogurt and lime juice around
the sides, and deep fried lasagna sheets are stuck on
Decoratively to this frosting optional extra top with slices of
avocado arranged into a wolf's head symbol. It was truly delicious,
(32:39):
and I regret that I have yet to make it again.
I hope you've enjoyed the second foray into foods with
threatening auras. If so, please mention a favorite food each
and I'll try to create a combined savory treat for you.
Oh oh wow, I'm a little nervous. Yeah, you might
have to ponder.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a minute
to think about that one. But in the meanwhile, a
the wolf's head is truly gorgeous, like really a sculptural
work of avocado art.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And and b uh, this sounds great. This sounds like
it shouldn't be great. But I totally believe you that
it was delicious.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I believe it too. I believe it too. I did
struggle reading through the description just now. There were a
couple of retakes, yeah, because it kept going.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. When she when she got to
the deep fried lasagna sheets, like we both just cracked up.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
We were like, and then what, I love it. It's fantastic.
It just kept going and going and going.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Indeed, what chaos. I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
It does sound absolutely chaotic, and you know we love
nerd nerd based dishows.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Oh yeah, experiments, oh yeah, and fan fix yeah yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So yes, And if anybody's interested, Janet did send links
to videos of making this. So yeah, it sounds like
truly delicious chaos that is nerd themed and we're on board.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
We're on board, so on board. But yeah, yeah, we'll
get back to you and we are going to choose wisely.
But who knows where where youre chaos will take us.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I guess I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Oh okay uh. Jamie wrote, so excited that you did
an episode about taiyaki. Our family went to Japan in
March of this year. My husband loves taiyaki and was
so excited to eat it while we were there. Luckily,
there was a taiyaki shop across the street from one
of our hotel and we found snoopy shaped taiyaki at
the Nishiki market in Kyoto. He especially loves the red
(35:06):
bean paste ones. Sometimes in the frozen section at Costco
they will have little fish shaped taiyaki that you can
warm up in the air fryer, which is a nice
way to have them here in the States. We also
had ten yen bread, which is taiyaki adjacent. We bought
two of those, one cheese and one chocolate. Relating to
another recent episode, we were also very excited to see
(35:27):
Krispy Kreme in the train stations They had all sorts
of different neat flavors that you don't typically see here
in the States. I could go on and on about Japan,
but suffice it to say it was amazing and we
are planning on going back again at some point paying
the pet tax. I have attached a picture of our
fourteen year old docs Rusty and are new to us
(35:48):
nine year old beagle Red. We had to say goodbye
to our seventeen year old beagle Rowdy in February, and
his brother Rusty was devastated, so we rescued Red to
be his emotional support dot and Red is fitting in
great and is helping fill the beagle sized hole in
our hearts. Oh my goodness, Okay, so it's so attached. Yes,
(36:10):
there are photos of the snoopy, the snoopy head, Taiyaki,
the cheese filled pastry mentioned and then oh those Krispy
Kreme look gorgeous. Oh, and the doggoes are so cute.
Those are real good dogs. They're all very relaxed as beagles. Uh,
(36:34):
and docsins tend to be.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I mean at a point like that, this is when
they have like borked all of their borks out and
they are recharging the bork.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yes, yes, it's so adorable.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh my goodness, what buddies.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, thank you so much. Preparing the checks, Oh, I
appreciate it, and sending pictures and this all sounds. I
love the wide array of taiyaki yeah, uh huh, and
all these different pastries people are writing in about, so
(37:14):
please keep that coming.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Oh yeah, feel free to just inundate. It's with as
much details as you would like to give. You'd never
have to worry about going on and on like that
is what we are absolutely into. And so sorry for
your for your recent pet loss. It's so yes, it's
their Their time is so brief, but so so worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, absolutely well, Thank you to both of these listeners
to writing in. If you would like to try to us,
you can or emails hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at saber pod. That's the name
of our show. Holy heck, we do hope to hear
from you. Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more
podcasts from iHeartRadio. You can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as
always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
(38:10):
Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
more good things are coming your way.
Hello, and welcome to Saber production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Anniris and I'm Lauren vogel Baum, and today we
have an episode for you about Tarragon, Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Which is an episode I fondly referred to as etymology Headache.
Was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
There are a whole list of herbs and spices that
I've got in our ideas sheet and this was one
of them, and it's kind of it's kind of a nice,
bright summary sort of herb.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So yeah, Yeah, I have to say in the initial
search results when I saw this, what I didn't know
at the time would be Etymology Headache. It does have
a lot of very fun names. I was very intrigued.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, and dragon shows up in a lot of the names,
so that's always fun.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Yeah, that was a pretty good hook. I mean, I know,
I know I've had tarragon before, but I can't like
recall it very specifically. But in one of the articles
that I use in researching this, they were talking about
how French cuisine, or at least modern French cuisine in
(01:29):
New York specifically, was moving away from Tarragon, which had
been so closely associated with it for so long, and
they were listing all these restaurants that, you know, don't
use tarragon anymore. No, but they were like, but there
is one holdout the Cuckoo. I've been there, and I
(01:50):
was just there in December, and I got to meet
up with the editor of the stuff when I never
told you book. Gave a van wherever you'd get your
books because we never met person to person, and she
suggested this restaurant and I happen to get the one
dish that had tarragon in it, the sweetbreads with tarragon.
(02:12):
I was like, oh, it was so good. Oh that
sounds lovely. Yeah, but it made me very happy that
I saw that the restaurant name. I had to look
at the menu immediately. I yes, that is what I got.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh delightful. Yeah. I actually don't like tarragon as much
as I think I'm going to like. Every time I
get some, I'm like, ah, it's like I don't dislike it.
I'm always just kind of like, oh, right, it's sort
of annest flavored. I feel like I always think I'm
going to like it more because part of my brain
(02:47):
still thinks it's fancy.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, due to.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's like heavy inclusion in things like the Silver Palette cookbook,
which we're going to talk about later. So here we are.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yes, absolutely, we're speaking of for past episodes. You can
see our episode on hawk cuisine. Mm, that was a
whole other side quest that I could not go down.
I did not have the time. No this episode. No
other herbs that we've done, licorice, peppercorns.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's some overlap in there, maybe absinthe. Yeah, yes, so.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
That is quite the list of topics. Best to our question. Tarragon,
what is it?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Well, Tarragon is an herb with tender, narrow green leaves
that tastes of annis or or like licorice or fennel,
maybe kind of bittersweet, a little herbal medicinal, kind of
tangy and peppery. It's used fresh or dried, and all
kinds of savory dishes like roasts or stews, particularly with chicken,
(03:56):
our fish, or in like egg or vegetable dishes, maybe
chopped fine, in fresh salads or in various sauces and dressings.
It's often used alongside other herbs for like like like
multi dimensional herbal properties. It can also be used in
sweet dishes and drinks to add a little bit of spice,
(04:16):
perhaps especially alongside fruity flavors. It's sort of cool and
pike in both at the same time. It's the herbal
equivalent of like stepping from a warm sunny day into
a cool room, like like having that residual heat on
your skin and getting that that that cool woosh mmmm.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, that is a lovely feeling, especially right now it's
so so hot outside.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So I moved away from Florida anyway. Botanical name Artemisia
dragon coolest Dracunculus. Sure, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Tarragon is a sort of shrubby scre ruby herbaceous plant
in the sunflower family astorossier. It's related to stuff like
mugwart and wormwood. It grows lots of soft, like non
woody stems from these underground rhizomes. The plant's true roots
grow into the ground off of those rhizomes. Stems go up,
(05:17):
roots go down. Yeah. The stems can reach about three
feet or a meter in height. The leaves are narrow
and sort of blade like, maybe an inch or two long,
like three to six centimeters, and they're this like soft
to glossy bluish green in color. It does grow wild,
but the wild varieties don't often have a good flavor.
A couple of different cultivars developed for their flavor are
(05:38):
the ones that you're going to encounter for culinary use.
Those two main varieties are French and Russian terragon. French
is more anisey, a little sweeter, and more finicky to
grow like. It will not tolerate frost. Russian is more
mild and bitter, but more hardy. Both are d route resistant,
which is cool. What's known as Mexican tarragon is from
(06:00):
a different genus altogether, but apparently tastes really similar to
French tarragon, but not really what we're talking about today.
In French and Russian tarragon and wild tarragon, the tops
of the stems will grow these clusters of small white
to yellow to green flowers that may develop seeds, but
not all cultivars do, and in any case, the plant
(06:22):
does propagate more readily from those rhizomes, which will spread
horizontally under the surface of the ground. The flowers are edible, too,
but we're mostly interested in the leaves. You can harvest
whole stems or just strip the leaves. In the supermarket,
you'll usually find packs of whole stems. You can toss
those whole into soups or stews to be taken out
(06:43):
at the end of cooking, or you can strip the
leaves and use those whole or chopped. Cooking tarragon for
too long can turn it bitter, so you might want
to add it towards the end of cooking, or use
it in dishes that don't have a long cooking time
to begin with, like eggs or fish or cream sauces.
And it does lose flavor when it's dried, so it's
best to use fresh or frozen when you can. And yeah,
(07:07):
tarragon is either native or successfully introduced to basically the
entire Northern hemisphere, so it plays roles in a lot
of different cuisines. France, where it is not native, really
picked it up during Elt cuisine, and so it is
a key ingredient in modern classics like Breneise sauce, which
(07:29):
is butter and eggyulk with vinegar, shallatte and tarragon, and
the chopped herb blend Fiends herb, which is parsley, chives,
sherville and tarragon. Tarragon is sometimes called referred to in
French as the King of Herbs. It's also really popular
as an ingredient in flavored vinegars and mustards and cheeses.
(07:50):
And I did see a lot of suggestions for using
tarragon in pasta and potato salads and to just generally
brighten up kind of savory ingredients like mushrooms or be
sor asparagus. Yeah, it is furthermore processed into oil powder
and paste for use in the processed food and beverage industry.
There's a popular, popular question mark soft drink around like
(08:12):
Central Asia and former Soviet Union areas called Tarkuna or tarkun,
which is flavored with it's soda flavored with tarragon, and
it's colored like bright green, bright green soda tarragon flavored.
And those words that I probably just mispronounced, I did
look them up but couldn't find anything really reliable. Those
(08:33):
are the Georgian and Russian words for tarragon, respectively. So
also one of several etymological notes I'm going to be
making here today. The flavor and or fragrance compound estragoal
was named for the French word for tarragon, So that
shows up in perfumes and stuff a lot and other
(08:55):
personal care products.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Oh, etymology, you really came for us in this one.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah. Yeah, this one was one of those cases of
those like like ancient peoples were not thinking about modern
podcasters at all.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
How could they? But I have to say I did
appreciate how I've found so many instances of people arguing
about it in like medieval times, and I.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Was like, yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Well what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
You're not really consuming enough to make a difference. But
tarragon does contain a lot of micronutrients that can help
your body do stuff, and it has been used in
various traditional medicines for a long time and is indeed
under investigation for various properties like antibacterial and anti fungal
effects in food preservation and for extracts in various medicines.
(09:54):
But you know saber motto, before you eat medicinal quantities
of anything should check with a doctor or other medical
professional who is not us, because bodies are complicated. Nutrition
is complicated.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
There you go, our research is needed. Well, we don't
really have numbers for you, but we have a fun
on back to fun quote.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I was looking up I was looking up like like
global production numbers for tarragon and like global market value,
and the numbers that I saw were so wildly different
in every source that I was like, this is not
this is not an actual number. I'm not going to
try to report this. But cultural note, James Beard is
quoted as having said, I believe that if I ever
(10:39):
had to practice cannibalism, I might manage if there were
enough tarragon around.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
It's such a fun quote because I feel like it
has a couple of interpretations. One is that you like
tarragon enough. One is that flag the flavor of tarragon
is enough to distract you mm hmmm. And the other
is like I can eat the tarra god. So I
guess how turned to my fellow human.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I think it's some of those first too. But but
I like that, Yeah, I like that you're thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
I think it's that he appreciated it so much.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
But I'm just saying, if this were a Fay deal,
that would be real shaky ground.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, yes, yeah, indeed, speaking of shaky ground, we got
to get into some of this etymology mess.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, we we do, we do, and we are we
we are. But first We are going to take a
quick break for a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay. So, historians suspect
that tarragon, specifically wild Russian tarragon, originated in Central and
Western Asia. French tarragon propagated with roots or cuttings, came
later a few centuries ago. It doesn't appear in any
European botanical literature until the fifteen hundred. So the general
(12:19):
consensus is that it's a newer herb and the scheme
of things, at least to Europe. That being said, new
historical discoveries happen all the time, and it could be
one of those things where historical descriptions and naming conventions
mix it up with something else. There are definitely multiple
instances in medieval text where authors complain about mistranslations leading
(12:43):
to mix ups with other herbs when it comes to tarragon.
We're going to talk about a few of them. It's
almost comical how many names it has gone by.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yep, yeah, yep, yep. But okay, it does seem that
tarragon started out in like Mongolia and Siberia and slowly
spread out from there through seed dispersal and human movement,
and somewhere along the line people selected for what we
(13:15):
now call the French variety, which yes, is a sterile variety.
Does not propagate from seeds. It has to be propagated
from rhizome cuttings. But that happened a long time before
it hit France. Probably, Tarragon was written up in an
Arab botanical text in the twelve hundreds as a seasoning
(13:35):
for vegetables and also a sleep aid.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yes, and in some Middle Eastern countries, tarragon has a
centuries long culinary history, winding up in several dishes that
are still around today. It was also used.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
In traditional medicines in Central Asia.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, Tiragon likely arrived in Europe towards the end of
the Middle Ages via Arab traders, or perhaps through the
Mongol invasion of Europe in the twelve hundreds.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Or possibly even earlier around the eight hundreds with the
Arab movement into parts of what's now Italy, or all
three of these things.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
We don't know. No one seems to know, no one
is sure, no one is sure, all right, So in
the early days it was used medicinally in a wide
range of ways. In Asia, the Middle East, and Europe,
perhaps specifically when it came to gastro intestinal distress, but
really in a huge range of ways. And speaking of
(14:33):
medicinal applications, the first known European mention of tarragon is
from a fifteen thirty six book about medicinal plants by
Jean Rouelle. Ruelle was a French physician, botanist and scholar,
and the book was published first in Paris. The discussion
of Tarragon is brief. The author discusses the roots and
translations and mistranslations of the name of the Arab, how
(14:56):
it grows, how it's used, and how it tastes. However,
some sources claim that Tarragon was mentioned farlier, even by
our old pal Plenty and Dioscurides. On top of that,
Ruel was known for translating the work of Dioskerites, which
did not mention Tarragon. But then Ruell wrote an original
(15:19):
work based on this translation of Diaskerites and added his
own bit about Tarragon. So I think some people attribute
the mention of Tarragon to Diascrites, Okay, at least in
my mind, that's part of the issue. And I same
with Plenty. I think the same thing happened, But there
(15:40):
is a lot of historical confusion around the name of
tarragon what it actually referred to when people were using it.
Most sources I read posit that Plenty, Diascurrites and the
like were referring to a different species arab Dragcunculus, which
is not I looked it up in is not the
(16:00):
same thing, and is also that scientific name is not
even used anymore from what I can tell.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yeah, and aram is either way a totally different genus.
It's separate plant, separate plants, but also called dracunculus.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yes, yes, And in fact, Plenty is often credited with
giving terragon or not Terragon, as the case might be,
its name and the first century CE because carrying it
on your person, according to him, provided protection from snake bites.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Okay, so yes, the etymology here is whibbley wobbly, because
we're not sure exactly what plant different people were referring to.
But it has been suggested that the name terragon roots
from this Greek word for dragon dragon, and that the
plant was called that because the rhizomes have a kind
of like knobby snakelike sort of appearance. Or maybe that
(16:59):
the leaves look like serpents tongues. I've read both, so
like right, like you get dracon and that goes to
an arab tarkon and then terragon.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Some have suggested that this association with serpents is why
the plant was thought to have these anti snake medicinal
properties of one kind or another. While we're here, the
genus name Artemisia comes from the association of the goddess
Artemis with some dang plant in like the mugwort, wormwood,
(17:34):
tarragon family or not or a different plant.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Again, there's like a bunch of historical confusion here.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yes, but all very interesting and great name landed on
a great name.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's like metal. That's like
really cool, very cool.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Okay. So after this we kind of get a little
bit of a cascade of other medicinal plant books sort
of arguing about this.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, like they didn't have Blue Sky, so they had
to do it through publication.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And that they did so. A fifteen seventy eight text
first published in fifteen fifty four but later updated, written
by Rimbert du Dunn's, a Belgian botanist and physician tauted
the benefits of tarragon, especially when it came to stomach
ailments and feminist bites. This work was significant when it
comes to tarragon because it was the first book in
(18:36):
this medico botanical space to give tarragon an entire entry
under the name dragon, complete with illustration. It was listed
amongst other edible plants that have a sort of bright,
spicy flavor with when fresh, so like a rocket or rugula,
things like that. Do Dunes recommended it for salads. He
(19:00):
also mentions that it wasn't common outside of France, apart
from a few cities in Belgium where the French had
introduced Then in fifteen fifty eight, Italian physician Pietro Andreya
Mattioli described tarragon as having an extremely acrid taste. He
wrote briefly about the belief some held that tarragon didn't
(19:23):
grow naturally but instead required farmers to place linen seeds
and hollowed out onions or something like an onion and
bury them. And he ran his own experiment and it
didn't work. Dismissed the whole thing. He was like, this
is just not true.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That's accurate. It's not true that that's what you have
to do to grow terragon. But again, probably the type
of tarragon that they were growing even at this point
was French tarragon, which is propagated through the rhizome. So yes, yes,
he was onto something with the seeds not being plantable, yeah,
(20:02):
step by step, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Which speaking of then, John Gerard published in fifteen ninety
seven his work The Herbal Out of London, including a
translation of Doe Dune's writings about tarragon along with his
own notes around medicinal properties and the name in other languages.
He also describes how in Greek myth, the fisherman Glaucus
(20:24):
became immortal after eating tarragon. However, it seems he mistranslated
a word for tarragon, so there's like, there's a plant
you eat and it gives you this immortality, and he
thought it was tarragon, but I think the word he
mistranslated was actually a descriptor for the plant, not actually
(20:45):
the plant.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So anyway, that kind of got dismissed, and I believe
Doe Dunes came out with another edition of his book
and was like, I don't know where your sources are
but that's not correct. It really was a whole back
and forth. There were a couple more after this, but
(21:07):
then it kind of settled down for a minute. English
gardens were growing at Tarragon by the sixteenth century. Europeans
brought tarragon over with them to the America's beginning in
the sixteen hundreds, but it seemed to remain pretty niche
at first, at least in the US.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
But wild tarragon did spread in North America, or was
possibly already here. A few ethnobotanies list tarragon as a
traditional medicine for peoples like the Chippewa and the Chequetnic.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So yes, ooh and then okay. By the eighteenth and
nineteenth century, Europe had generally embraced tarragon as a spice,
but none more so than France. They added it to
a whole variety of things, including biernet sauce, a devoration
(22:02):
of the French mother sauce holland Dais, which, by the way,
we're just gonna have to do a whole episode on
these sauces.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
On the sauce as we are. Yeah, I've been putting
that off because of all of the heck in French
that I am going to mispronounce.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
That is fair. That is fair. U. Well, the first
recipe for beernais appeared in eighteen thirty six, or that's
the general consensus. Future episode. Yeah, august Escoffier's landmark nineteen
oh three work Leaguide Colinaire mentioned to Tarragon over sixty times.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
All right.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
He was also the first to define France's fiene herbs
in nineteen oh three, which is a seasoning of equal
parts Parsley, Chives, Sherville and Tarragon. So yeah, it was
a big part of that, like new classic French cuisine,
Hawk cuisine.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, huge, it was everywhere in there.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah. Yeah, but that's future as will deal with that
because I tried to fit it all into this episode
and I was like, no, we can do all episode
just on Tarra God and Friends.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah, during that specific time period. Yes. Meanwhile, that Tarragon
soda pop that I mentioned was invented in eighteen eighty
seven by this Georgian pharmacist by the name of U.
I'm so sorry if I mess this up a metrofun Leginze,
I think I'm not sure. I'm so sorry. Yeah, But
(23:31):
he was working with a bunch of different herbs and
fruits and spices to make syrups for soft drinks. The
tarragon one did get popular throughout the USSR in the
nineteen eighties when, which is when it saw mass production
and is still available and is always just absolutely emerald.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Green listeners right in. Yeah, yeah, okay, stepfing back a bit.
After returning to the US from Europe, famous Francophile Thomas Jefferson,
that guy ran into trouble getting his hands on tarragon,
which had been readily available while he was in France,
(24:09):
and Jefferson had been particularly taken with tarragon mustard, so
he really wanted to make this. He went on this
whole quest to get seeds to grow his own tarragon,
but he ran into dead ends at every turn. And yeah,
part of the problem was that tarragon grown for culinary
purposes was the French variety propagated using root division or cutting.
(24:31):
So yeah, he just wasn't having it. Wasn't going to work. Yeah,
wasn't going to work. So he sent this message, this
really lamenting message about his tarragon loves to horticulturists Bernard
McMahon in eighteen o six and McMahon sent him some
roots to grow his own. I think a month later
(24:51):
was like here You're.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Like, here you go, bud.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, just good luck. But still it was not smooth sailing.
Over several years in the early eighteen hundreds, Jefferson struggled
to cultivate tarragon at Monticello, where he lived. Based on
the sources I read, he never really succeeded, but he
did turn more people onto tarragon in the United States.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's honestly, probably too wet around Monticello.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Wants it to be a little bit drier. But or
I don't know, maybe it was karma for him being
a terrible heck in person.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There could be any number of things. Yeah, he also
moved it a lot. I think he was I couldn't tell,
but it sounded like he was pretty impatient. He really
wanted this mustard, which I'm sure wasn't helping with the crow. Yeah. Yes,
But in either gate, whatever happens. Starting in the eighteen hundreds,
(25:52):
recipes for things like tarragon vinegar started appearing in American cookbooks,
and then in the mid nineteen hundreds, Julia Child helped
popularize tarragon and French dishes and spice mixes that called
for it for mainstream American audiences. And then something I
(26:12):
never heard of, but it sounds like you had Lauren.
The team behind the Silver Palette carry out shop in
New York City as Shila Lukens and Julie Russo, included
several recipes that called for tarragon, and their two cookbooks,
The Silver Palette and The New Basics. These books came
out in the nineteen eighties and they were incredibly popular.
(26:35):
They wove together American in international cuisines, and they created
some new takes on old classics. When it came to tarragon,
a lot of Americans did have this sort of long
associated thing where they always thought of it as this
is for francy French dishes, that's where it belongs. I
can't make those, But these cookbooks featured recipes in other
(26:59):
ways using it in other ways, like in tarragon pea
soup and teargn chicken salad, and so the addition of
tarragon was accessible, but it made many feel like the
resulting dish was fancier, which I think is what you
were talking about. The top one.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, well, we'll definitely have to do a
whole episode about the whole silver palette thing. These were
two cookbooks that I grew up with my parents using
extensively at home. And also because because my dad was
a professional cook or chef for you know, whatever, whatever
(27:35):
you want to call someone who smokes too many cigarettes
outside of kitchens, he took a lot of inspiration from
that kind of cooking.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
So, yeah, I would love to come back to it.
Because I was I was looking just out of curiosity
tarragon dishes available near me, and so many of them
were things that were in this cookbook. I was just
kind of cross matching, so it had quickly out of impacts.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, it's really emblematic of those books are really emblematic
of the kind of nineteen eighties wave of novelle cuisine
that was talking about. Yeah, just like, get good ingredients,
don't mess them up, try to eat nice fresh things.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Interesting. Yeah, yes, another interesting thing. In two thousand and one,
the publication su Herb had a feature specifically highlighting tarragon
titled only Elegance. I tried so hard to track this
down so I could read it, and I could only
find like a small shot oh, desperate to read it.
(28:46):
But a lot of the newer stuff I've read made
it sound like Tarragon is kind of old fashioned and stuffy. Now,
like the thing that I was talking about with the
restaurant I went to the Cuckoo where they're like, that's
the only restaurant that uses it. They were saying it
was at this high and now yeah you can't.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, I guess. I guess it probably especially for right
for like a certain caliber of restaurant that has gotten
burnt out on doing like classical cuisine type dishes. They're like, no,
no more terragone. Man, I'm sick of Tarragon. We did enough,
Terragon done. We're done there, Let's move on to literally
(29:31):
anything else.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
But it's nice. It's nice.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that, you know, like like
something like fennel, you know, it's just gonna come in
waves of popularity where like suddenly it's going to be
the it's spice for everything, the herb for everything, and
but then people are gonna be like, no, we're sick
of that. Now.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I agree. I agree because I feel like I've seen it,
like maybe even in cocktails and things. So I thought
it was fancy in that way, but maybe it's maybe
it's more niche right now, but it'll come back and
have another big moment. But yeah, listeners, let us know
(30:17):
if there are ways that you like to use it,
or dishes that you love that have tarragon in them.
We would love to hear from you. But I think
that's what we have to say about tarragn for now.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It is. We do have some listener mail for you already, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you. Now
we're back with name stepping inside cool room after being outside.
Hmmmmmm okay. Janet sent an email with the subject line
(31:10):
speaking of desecrated coconut that reads, I was so excited
when I heard my last letter read aloud. You really
brought both the whimsy and horror of Lamington Pizza to life.
For the listeners, please find attached pictures of my bond
Me inspired Schmorgas tort extravaganza witcher cake, so named for
(31:34):
reasons that I promise made since during lockdown, much like
the tsunami of Witcher fanfic, also written in twenty twenty.
It is made only using ingredients mentioned are shown by
Joey Batty and his Chaos Grimlin masterpiece of a YouTube
video Joey's Great Witcher Bakeoff. Therefore, my bond me Schmorgas
(31:56):
Torte is made by spreading pet over gluten free non
or lebonese bread and layering with a salad of red
wine and sugar pickled carrots, avocado, cucumber, baby spinach, and
fresh basil, then dressed with lime juice, chili flakes, and
more red wine vinegar, then loaded with coconut and pepper
(32:17):
fried beef and omelet as proteins. The torte is then
liberally frosted with strained Greek yogurt and lime juice around
the sides, and deep fried lasagna sheets are stuck on
Decoratively to this frosting optional extra top with slices of
avocado arranged into a wolf's head symbol. It was truly delicious,
(32:39):
and I regret that I have yet to make it again.
I hope you've enjoyed the second foray into foods with
threatening auras. If so, please mention a favorite food each
and I'll try to create a combined savory treat for you.
Oh oh wow, I'm a little nervous. Yeah, you might
have to ponder.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a minute
to think about that one. But in the meanwhile, a
the wolf's head is truly gorgeous, like really a sculptural
work of avocado art.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
It really is.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And and b uh, this sounds great. This sounds like
it shouldn't be great. But I totally believe you that
it was delicious.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I believe it too. I believe it too. I did
struggle reading through the description just now. There were a
couple of retakes, yeah, because it kept going.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. When she when she got to
the deep fried lasagna sheets, like we both just cracked up.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
We were like, and then what, I love it. It's fantastic.
It just kept going and going and going.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Indeed, what chaos. I love it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
It does sound absolutely chaotic, and you know we love
nerd nerd based dishows.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Oh yeah, experiments, oh yeah, and fan fix yeah yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So yes, And if anybody's interested, Janet did send links
to videos of making this. So yeah, it sounds like
truly delicious chaos that is nerd themed and we're on board.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
We're on board, so on board. But yeah, yeah, we'll
get back to you and we are going to choose wisely.
But who knows where where youre chaos will take us.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I guess I can't wait.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Oh okay uh. Jamie wrote, so excited that you did
an episode about taiyaki. Our family went to Japan in
March of this year. My husband loves taiyaki and was
so excited to eat it while we were there. Luckily,
there was a taiyaki shop across the street from one
of our hotel and we found snoopy shaped taiyaki at
the Nishiki market in Kyoto. He especially loves the red
(35:06):
bean paste ones. Sometimes in the frozen section at Costco
they will have little fish shaped taiyaki that you can
warm up in the air fryer, which is a nice
way to have them here in the States. We also
had ten yen bread, which is taiyaki adjacent. We bought
two of those, one cheese and one chocolate. Relating to
another recent episode, we were also very excited to see
(35:27):
Krispy Kreme in the train stations They had all sorts
of different neat flavors that you don't typically see here
in the States. I could go on and on about Japan,
but suffice it to say it was amazing and we
are planning on going back again at some point paying
the pet tax. I have attached a picture of our
fourteen year old docs Rusty and are new to us
(35:48):
nine year old beagle Red. We had to say goodbye
to our seventeen year old beagle Rowdy in February, and
his brother Rusty was devastated, so we rescued Red to
be his emotional support dot and Red is fitting in
great and is helping fill the beagle sized hole in
our hearts. Oh my goodness, Okay, so it's so attached. Yes,
(36:10):
there are photos of the snoopy, the snoopy head, Taiyaki,
the cheese filled pastry mentioned and then oh those Krispy
Kreme look gorgeous. Oh, and the doggoes are so cute.
Those are real good dogs. They're all very relaxed as beagles. Uh,
(36:34):
and docsins tend to be.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Well.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I mean at a point like that, this is when
they have like borked all of their borks out and
they are recharging the bork.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yes, yes, it's so adorable.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh my goodness, what buddies.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah, thank you so much. Preparing the checks, Oh, I
appreciate it, and sending pictures and this all sounds. I
love the wide array of taiyaki yeah, uh huh, and
all these different pastries people are writing in about, so
(37:14):
please keep that coming.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Oh yeah, feel free to just inundate. It's with as
much details as you would like to give. You'd never
have to worry about going on and on like that
is what we are absolutely into. And so sorry for
your for your recent pet loss. It's so yes, it's
their Their time is so brief, but so so worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yes, absolutely well, Thank you to both of these listeners
to writing in. If you would like to try to us,
you can or emails hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at saber pod. That's the name
of our show. Holy heck, we do hope to hear
from you. Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more
podcasts from iHeartRadio. You can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as
always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
(38:10):
Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
more good things are coming your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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