May 22, 2025 • 43 mins
This ultra-creamy cheese achieves its texture and funk from a species of mold that was named after it. Anney and Lauren dig into the science and history of camembert.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Save You production of iHeartRadio, I'm Any.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Lorn vocal Bam, and today we have an
episode for you about Kevin Bert.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Nope, I think I was.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We hadn't done a cheese episode in a minute, and
we love doing cheese episodes, and this was one of
the ones that we have not done before, and I
love it. I think I purchased some for a cheese
played a couple months ago, and you know, why not?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Why not? We do love our cheese episodes. It's funny
to me how many times we do them, and somehow
there's still billion much to talk about with the specific
cheese and all other cheeses. But yeah, this one we
were discussing before we started recording. How to a lot
written about it, a lot of reading today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, this was one of the ones where I was like, well,
I could keep reading about Canon beer for another couple
of days, but I don't have that kind of time,
So I'm going to I'm going to stop. I'm going
to assume that what I have written down in my
notes already is accurate enough for podcast work.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yes, but it continue.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
If you want to learn more and you're somebody who's
more an expert than us, oh yeah, there's plenty more
out there for you.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, if you want to dive deep into the microbiology
of Canon Bear, you can.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
You can, and we would love to hear from you
after you do. I know I've had camm beer. I
feel like this's impossible. I wouldn't have had it, but
I can't recall. I do love Brie, and Brie and
Cam and Bear are often put in the same conversation.
So I am determined to get it. I looked for it.
(02:05):
My local grocery store didn't have it, so I'm gonna
have to I'm gonna have to branch out, but I
am determined. We also talked about how we both got
cravings just when we were discussing the topic.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, every single helpful photo on a website just really
increased the craving.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I was like, oh no, oh dear.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It was bad. That was before we even chose it.
It was just one of the possibilities. Here we are. Well,
you can see our past cheese episodes for more, maybe
specifically Breede, but all of them. All of them are
in the mix. Sure, and that brings us to our question,
(02:53):
camm bert, what is it?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Well, Well, Camembert is a type of soft cheese made
from cow milk with a bloomy white rind that's sort
of toothsome tender, and a creamy yellow interior that's basically
just melting at room temperature. Its flavor is savory and
a little buttery, fruity and a little funky sharp, like
(03:21):
mushrooms and earth and must It comes in small wheels
just about five inches across and a couple inches high.
That's maybe twelve by five centimeters, weighing just about nine
ounces or two hundred and fifty grams. Traditionally wrapped in
coated paper and then packaged into a pressed wood box,
often in a cylinder shape to match the cheese. It's
(03:42):
most often served as is as a table cheese, like
in a cheeseplate sort of situation. You know, maybe some
bread or crackers and other accompaniments like fruit, nuts, pickled veg.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What have you.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
But you can bake it with seasonings like herbs, spices,
or maybe jams or honey to make it even more
tempting and guey, or use it on sandwiches, or maybe
to make like a cheesy sauce for pasta or vegetables
or whatever you want to put a cheese sauce on,
which is everything probably right right, Yep, it's really good
(04:15):
if you enjoy slightly funky cheeses. Camm Beert is like
it's like if you could take a stone from a
cellar and make it just buttery, spreadable.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I like that. I do really like that kind of mushroomy,
earthy taste and cheese. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh it's so.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Good m hm.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
But okay.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
The term canon Beert can be applied to cheese is
made in the style anywhere by anyone in pretty much anyway.
But there is a protected designation of origin for cam
and Beert that has made tradition only in Normandy, France,
which is where the cheese is from. A true Camembert
de Normandy and that is what will be on the
(05:08):
label has to be made in one of four regions
in Normandy where they have the right grassland for the cows.
The cow herds have to be at least half made
up of the Normandy breed, which has been bread for
milk production. Like it's a little bit higher in protein
than usual, super tasty. There are regulations about how the
cows must be grazed and fed, like eighty percent of
(05:29):
their food has to come from the farm that they
live on. They have to feeld grays for over six
months a year. The milk obtained is kept raw, that
is unpasteurized. And yes, that means that any Camumbert that
you have had in the United States is not de
normandy because we've got a ban on import of raw
milk cheeses here.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
But anyway, there's regret here.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
But anyway, once that cow is milked for the Camumbert
de normandy, you've got seventy two hours to make the
milk into a.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Cheese that is ready to be matured.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And cheese very basically is what we do to milk
to preserve it and make it fun. And we do
this by getting a lot of the water out in
this case, not like too much water, So okay, you
start by getting the nutritious and tasty stuff and milk,
that is, the fats and the proteins to clump together,
(06:22):
and these will be your curds. Camembert is curdled using renent,
which is an animal protein that occurs in calves that
helps them digest milk. And you've also got a boost
here from naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria that are just
hanging out I mean in the dairy, but also all
around us, all the time, everywhere. Together, rennet and lactic
(06:46):
acid bacteria change the pH of the milk, making it
more acidic, which makes it curdle, leaving you with solid
curds and liquid whey. The curds are cut and scooped
out of the way and layered into these small individual moles,
gently being allowed to drain for a bit between each
layer to get more way out.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
They're not pressed.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Into the molds as many cheeses are, but rather like
allowed to drain slowly, mostly under their own weight, for
at least eighteen hours, and that gentle treatment helps preserve
the moisture levels and the soft texture of the kurds.
Once they're firm enough, they're turned out of the molds
and moved to a drying room, where they're turned once
over a period of time to distribute the inner moisture
(07:30):
level and allow the whole surface to dry out, and
then they're moved to a maturing room, sometimes in a
whole different facility run by people whose job it is
to specifically mature cheeses. I didn't know that this job existed.
It's called an affineur and I love this.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I do too, right, A good job opportunity. What training
do I need?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Do I need to eat cheese to do it? I
think I can so okay.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
In the in the maturing process, the cheese will be
lightly salted and sprayed with a culture of what's going
to make it develop its rind and inner texture as
it ages. This specific species of mold that's named for
the cheese, Penicillium camemberti. It thrives in cool, humid conditions.
And part of what this friendly mold does is it
(08:29):
breaks down the lactic acid that was produced by those
friendly bacteria during the curdling, and it breaks it down
into carbon dioxide and water. And this is all happening
from the outside in. But as the concentration of lactic
acid inside the cheese shifts, more lactic acid will migrate
to the surface and get broken down. This, in turn,
(08:50):
will shimmy loose some of the calcium phosphate that's holding
together the proteins of the cheese in the interior. That
calcium phosphate will then migrate to the cheese's surface, making
the interior of the cheese softer. As the cheese undergoes
all of this, it also develops its flavors. Flavor molecules
(09:11):
involved include ones that are like cheesy and buttery, mushroomy, cabbagey, sweaty,
which sounds like a weird list, but I promise it's
like in a pleasant way. It is like a more
challenging cheese on the palette than brie, which is a
little bit like milky sweet creamy. In a more direct way,
(09:34):
this is a little weirder, which you know again if
you dig it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Heck yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
As the mold grows, it also forms up into this soft,
thin rind all around the exterior of the cheese with
a velvety white surface. Sometimes the little bit of other
color in there too, like a maybe like a little
bit of rusty red or greenish blue. And for what
I understand, that happens mostly in the traditionally produced cheeses
(10:03):
that have some wild bacteria and or mold action going
in there. Kevin Bear matures for at least thirteen days
before being packaged, that is a rule under the Normandy regulations,
and cannot be sold under those regulations, or more specifically,
cannot be delivered to customers until they're twenty two days old.
(10:27):
I love this, Yeah, so specific right, okay, And this
cheese will continue ripening in its package and we'll start
to develop sharp flavors as amino acids get broken down
and ammonia is released. So the idea is like, probably
(10:47):
eat it fresh. I mean, unless you like that kind
of thing. I can't tell you what to do, though,
I will say that research has shown that the optimal
time to eat Cammbert is between three and seven weeks
of age.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Once again, Lauren, how do we get into this research
just eating cheese and rating how good it is depending
on how much time has passed.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
We are genuinely missing our life's calling.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Indeed, we must put things correct.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I believe in us. I think that we can make
our dreams come true, our cheese dreams. The best guy, yes,
but yeah so. Camonbert is often just enjoyed straight. Like
you know, you just take it out of the box,
let it come to room temperature, and then eat it
with some bagette or you know whatever, or you could
you know, put it into a tart or chiche or
(11:41):
on a sandwich or a pizza for a little bit
of French flair in there. I have seen it referred
to as France's national cheese.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yes, they seem to be very into it. Well, what
about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know, cheese is on purpose calorie dense food. That's
the concept of preserving those, you know, tasty nutritious things.
It's watch your portion sizes. It might be a treat,
but treats are so nice. Cheese treats are aces.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
They are difficult to watch your portions. But well, speaking
of we do have some numbers for you.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
We have a few.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So according to those production laws, there are currently one
five hundred and seventy seven municipalities in France that are
cleared to make cheese that can be labeled as Kemmbert
In Normandy, them's the facts. There are a couple festivals
that celebrate Kevimbert and other local cheeses around Normandy. One
(12:51):
in kem Bremer had its thirtieth anniversary this year, having
started in nineteen ninety five. It also features other protected
designation of origin products like poultry and wine. There's another
in Orbec that hosts up to ten thousand people a
year and includes a lot of like historical edutainment activities
like demonstrations of cheese processes and lace making.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
As of twenty nineteen, Kemembert made up just over half
of the total production of free type cheeses in France
at eighty eight thousand, three hundred and nine metric tons,
about half of which is sold in France. However, they
(13:43):
are into it. They're into it, They're into it. However,
of that total, only about five thousand metric tons is
certified Kevin bar to Normandy, it is the best selling
soft cheese in France and according to one survey, some
seventy French people say that it is the most emblematic
(14:05):
French cheese.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and there are a couple of contenders, but I
would say Camembert. I can see it.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's only the third best selling cheese
overall after Chevra and Comte.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Is that how you say that? Sure?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Great.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I don't know if the accent of you is there
or not. I can't remember, but I think so it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So with our powers combined, we still don't know French great.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But we're doing our best and that's what we're going
to do. In the history.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Section o hoofta.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yes we are, and we will get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So if you've listened to this show before, you're probably
familiar with the basic theory about the invention of cheese.
Though it does vary by region and type, it usually
boils down to storing dairy and something like an animal
bladder or a cave, and then agitation through movement and
or time just letting time pass, and then cheese.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, through the action of right a number of
friendly microbes that we wouldn't really learn about until very recently.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yes, which is why there it's often described as an accident,
like what happened here. When it comes to Cammber specifically,
it is a bit of a newer cheese in the
scheme of things. Normandy's climate and environment make it a
good place for raising cows and therefore making cheese because
(15:59):
camber is something of a very local and national point
of pride. As we've mentioned, there are a lot of
legends about how it was invented, but one in particular
gets repeated the most and here's how it generally plays out.
During the French Revolution in seventeen ninety one, a priest
was being hunted by angry revolutionaries in Normandy. He came
(16:23):
across a farmer named Many Hedel, who kindly sheltered him.
The priest was from the town of Bri and was
familiar with making the cheese that shared the town's name.
At Chi Sea is much older than Kim and bhaeron
you can see that episode. As mentioned, Hedel was also
familiar with cheesemaking, having learned it from her mother as
(16:44):
she grew up on the farm. In return for the
farmer's kindness, or maybe out of boredom or cravings, he
agreed to Dtaete how to make Bri But whether because
of the ingredients, environment acts, or something else, they ended
up making a different type of cheese that was similar
(17:04):
to Breathe but not quite it. It was what would
become canon Bear instead. However, others point out that some
evidence suggest that came and beer was recorded in the
Normandy valley over a century earlier, in the sixteen eighties.
It's possible that Herel and the priest improved upon the
cheese in some way, but there's no substantial evidence of that.
(17:27):
Others alleged that Herald was not from camen Bear but
a village nearby, and that's a big sticking point.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
For them, whatever the case. In these early days, the
mold that works to mature this cheese from the outside
and was just something that occurred naturally in the places
where people set the cheese down to age. And as
a result of this wild culture, you would have gotten
(17:54):
slightly different flavors in every batch and different colors on
the rind. Cheese like Camembert and brie would have been
gray green to green blue in color until sometime in
the nineteen hundreds, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Okay, well, whether this is true or not exaggerated or not,
soon after Harrell allegedly invented cam and beert, it had
become pretty popular, though mostly it was local since it
was a soft cheese and therefore difficult to transport, and
we're talking really local distribution in the beginning, like Aral's
friends and the nearby town and that's it. It was
(18:35):
so local that apparently no one really gave it an
official name, which brings us to another legend. Napoleon named
the cheese okay, yes, as the story goes Napoleon was
passing through and someone offered him the cheese, and he
loved it so much he kissed the woman who gave
it to him on the cheek and named it officially
(18:58):
after the town, or Napoleon the third did, or neither
of them did, but the Napoleons do get credit for
the whole thing. Yep. The Industrial Revolution made it possible
to ship camembert to other places. On top of that,
we get the invention of the wooden container that was
(19:18):
used to transport it.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, And like the circumstance of this cheese coming up
alongside railways booming in like the mid to late eighteen
hundreds absolutely influenced its popularity, Like it was suddenly a
a product that people were talking about and wanted, and
b it was able to be transported into city centers.
(19:41):
It is thought that producers began selecting specifically for that
Penicillium camberti strain around this time, like right around the
turn of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And P.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Camemberti is interesting because it's a white mutation of the
types of penns Ilium that were growing wild that gave
those those green blue gray colors. Researchers would isolate it
in nineteen oh six from samples of Camembert cheese, and
they began producing it in labs cheese science.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Then in nineteen oh nine a bunch of producers got
together and formed an association to protect and promote the
traditional production of Kevinbert. The English translation is something along
the lines of like the Association of Producers of True
or Authentic Camembert of Normandy.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Wow, okay, mmmmm, I don't want to mess with them.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
No, you don't, I really don't.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I'm not being cavalier serious, but this brings us to
another legend. According to Saver, in nineteen twenty six, a
New Yorker made the journey to Vitmotier, which is located
near Normandy, to pay his respects Torel by laying a
wreath of flowers on her grave. And he claimed the
(21:04):
cheese Kim and Bert had cured him of his stomach ailments.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I read that he was a doctor and he was
overseas during World War One ish and said that right,
the cheese had helped him and or his patients.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yes, he also donated twenty dollars and the Association of
producers of Jude Normandy Kevinbert realized that this was a
real opportunity. His donation went to a sculpture of Harel,
and many speculate that this helped solidify her space in
history like this, Really the legend is now what we're
(21:45):
saying is true. The statue would eventually be destroyed during
bombing and World War II.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Normandy is a little
famous for having gone through it. But the statue was
rebuilt after the war. Apparently it was as a gift
from this group of cheese factory workers in Ohio, and
they had one of Harel made for themselves too.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Still, this cheese was pretty regional for a while, but
that did change with World War One, where the cheese
was popular amongst French soldiers after they got a taste
of it, and once they returned home, they started asking
for it and word and demand spread, and not only
in France but internationally.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, I think it was part of rations for French
soldiers at some point, and we've heard that story repeated
about various different foods in all kinds of episodes. That
attention was not all good, however, because between both World
Wars and then you know all of the disruption that
those brought, and then post war large dairies getting in
(22:52):
on production. The traditional production of Camembert started fading, but
that Makers Association was working on bringing it back.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yes, they were. In nineteen eighty three, Camembert received an
AOC or a controlled designation of origin, which we've talked
about numerous times. However, as we said at the top,
cheeses that do not follow the laid out rules for
the AOC or are processed outside of Canon Beert can
still call their products Camon beer. If you want the
(23:26):
AOC product, the label reads Camon Beert in Normandy.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, the cheese received a broader European designation an AOP
in nineteen ninety six. Around that same time, those larger
cheese producers started challenging the rules of these distinctions, suggesting
that traditionally make Camibert could just be labeled as vera
(23:54):
tab true or authentic and allow factory made is to
share that Camumbart to Norman Dy label. But they have
been shut down.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yes. In two thousand and seven, two of the biggest
AOC canon beer producers in Normandy started using microfiltered milk
to meet some international health standards around unpasteurized milk, which
is what the traditional product calls for, and in doing
so they lost their AOC label.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Discussions about this have continued around the same time and
or later and or continually, like other producers were trying
to use low heat treated milk and get the rule
changed to allow that. But that committee, that association is insistent,
(24:47):
and the whole thing has been so hotly debated, like
larger facilities will insist that their product is safer and
therefore superior, and the smaller facilities insist that the microbiome
of the milk before processing is integral to the quality
of the final product, which is therefore superior.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's great it is And speaking of hotly debated things,
oh jeez. McDonald's France rolled out the temporary menu item
the mc kevin Bear in twenty thirteen in France. No
one was particularly happy about it.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
No one.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh, I this was my first rabbit hole of the
episode because I got to that note and I was like, oh, no,
I need to know everything about this.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So the Guardian reported about it and quoted one Patrick Marcier,
then the president of that producer association, and Furthermore, he's
the head of this one like particularly renowned organic farm
that produces cavin bear.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
They quoted him, he said.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
We feel used. They did this without consulting us, without
even warning us, warning us. He does seem really cool.
His farm seems really cool. I read a lot about it.
But this was on the part of McDonald's. This was
part of a larger release of like artisanal cheese based
(26:24):
sandwiches in French McDonald's that year, including Comte and Raclette.
I think the concepts in general were like, okay, so,
like you've got like a chewy roll and like a
better than average like local burger patty, and then it's
topped with like lettuce, tomato, a garlicky mayo, and a
(26:44):
thick slice of whatever the cheese in question was, which
earnestly sounds great. Yeah, like I'm mad about how much
I want to be eating that right now. Totally eat
that anyway. Furthermore, apparently McDonald's in France are fancier than
(27:06):
ours and they are the second highest grossing market for
the company outside of the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Oh that's fascinating. Okay one, in my experience, every other
country has better McDonald's.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
US, Okay, sure, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Two, France kind of notoriously hates McDonald's, Like that's kind
of their whole look at America ruining our which I'm
not get it. Don't believe me. I get it, sure,
ruining like the Eifel towers here and here's the McDonald's.
So I did not know that about them being such
a big.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Market apparently, especially like in the past tennis years or
so with initiatives like this, they've really made there.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
They really made.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
The French McDonald's more French, you know, like they have
nicer seed and lighting.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
They've got a cafe where you can.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Get real coffee products and like maclonol and stuff like that,
and you know, and like they're just they're just like, oh,
like you like French food, can we just can we
give that to you? And they're like, yeah, sure, it's delicious,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wow. Well, I personally I go to McDonald's every time
I visit. I don't eat there, but I go in
to look at their menu and see what it's all about,
because I just find it very interesting. So listeners, if
you have any thoughts about this or any McDonald's you've
been to, I would love to know because I just
in my head, I just have this association with you know,
(28:42):
French people. No McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, I feel like we could definitely do because we
have done an episode on McDonald's, but it was mostly
about the wild history of what's his name who founded it?
Ray Kroc, Ray Krock you And we didn't get that
far into international McDonald's sananigans.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
And we absolutely could.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We could. It's an insane level of our We're gonna
do it one day. But of our pizza toppic.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Crust and pizza yeah yeah, international pizza huts alone, yes,
but further international pizza dealings. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Well, listeners, please write in well. In twenty seventeen, the
Google Doodle honored Hell Hell as part of as the
creator of Camenbert. So they're following, They're all. In the
following year, there was a push to allow all came
and Beert made in France to use the label Camembert
(29:50):
de Norman d. But there was a lot of pushback
and protest against the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, and it has been shot down as far
as I'm personally aware. Then, in twenty twenty four, researchers
called attention to this potential problem for the future of
kem and beer production, that being the supply of Penicillium kemmberti,
that friendly mold that makes it work. The researchers found
(30:19):
that this selected strain of penicillium doesn't have great genetic
diversity because it is lab raised and it's reproduced asexually,
meaning that people are producing identical clones with like no
opportunities to get new genetic material in there. A healthier
population is always more genetically diverse, so this means that
(30:42):
a labs can't produce they can produce like a relatively
limited amount, so they're struggling to keep up with demand.
And furthermore, like if some disease that affects this mold
strain happened to break out, it could be devastating. However,
science is working on it. There is ongoing research into
(31:04):
different strains and how they can be improved. There's also
research into making plant based plant milk based cheeses using
pi Kim.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
And Marty So.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Cheese science, Cheese science, So cool, really cool. Cheese episodes
are always fun, a little complicated, but fun. That's why
we got to space them out a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I don't know what would have happened to you if
you had done that whole cheese show you were planning.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I would have it would have been no, no, you
would have.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Gone on an internet rabbit hole and been absorbed by
the internet.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
The cheese continuum would have eaten me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, so that's good. We're we're taking our time, but
they are fun. And please, listeners, let us know if
you have any favorite preparations of Camembert recipes or you
just eat it like it is. I think that's amazing. Yeah,
but please let us know. Yeah, that's what we have
(32:17):
to say about Camonbert for now.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
It is.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
We we're back.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And we're back with
m Earth Eat much room nice Yeah, our crode in
(32:57):
about a couple of things. Turkish Delight, as you know,
is a pretty unique confectionery and can cover a wide
range of flavors and sweetness. I don't recall having anything
really memorable here in the US, and it has been
a while since I have seen any imported. When I
was in London recently, our office did have a small
box that was really good. It was a simple rosewater one,
(33:18):
just a slight sweetness and it was very enjoyable. Kicking
myself now for not making note of the brand. Hopefully
I'll find a good one here that is not too expensive. Now.
I've never had Kafelta fish. I've seen the jarred, but
have never heard of it being made fresh. Something I
will need to look out for. Schitake mushrooms are definitely
(33:41):
a great one to use. I try to keep dried
ones available to use in broth, especially for ramen or fu.
Cooking fresh is challenging for me as I struggle to
keep them from getting rubbery, but they do provide a
lot of variety. Crispy cream has mostly disappeared around me,
except for a few small stores that have them as
(34:02):
an option. I personally think both Crispy and Duncan have
really dropped in quality over the last five years or so.
They have become the well it is a donut to me.
I will look for a small bakery or local shop first.
Bring on the saison, my second favorite behind sours, and
(34:24):
love that Unibrow teamed up with Megadeath a few years
ago to do one called a toulamnd after their song
of the same name. Beer episodes are always fun, informative
and will bring on opinions. Now you have me wondering
about a curry tree as well as always thank you
for bringing us knowledge and joy. Well, thanks for listening
(34:48):
and writing in I I love this. I actually had
a tou lamonde, but yeah I have. I didn't know. Oh,
I didn't know what.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I had no idea. It was in collaboration with Mega Death.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
No, and Lauren and I were discussing beforehand as cheese
is very a lot written about it when it comes
from France, very verbose. A lot of our beer episodes
are similarly complicated if they're from Germany because of tax
laws and very dense, dry documents.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And just a lot of things to read about in
terms of like the grain bill, like what specific ingredients
are going in there and where they are from and
the history of those things. And it gets like right,
like in this episode about cheese, like I reached a
point where I was like, okay, I have to start
googling the back like the mold culture, because I need
(35:49):
to know more about that before I can finish writing
about this cheese, which is fascinating and also holy crap.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yep, pretty much. But people have written in about their
opinions about says On, so you're right about that, and
we'll be hearing some of those messages coming up. But
in the meantime, we got a lot of Krispy Kream
messages to get through. I tell you what people have
thoughts I am interested in.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I kind of.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I wouldn't say I agree with you, because it's not
like I was eating at Crispy Kream or Dunkin Donuts
a lot beforehand. But I feel like in my experience,
a lot of more artisan are like fancy donut places
opened a couple of years ago, like before the pandemic. Yeah,
so I wonder if there was some kind of thing
(36:42):
that happened where the like nice donuts that is not
from these chain restaurants was having a moment. I don't know,
but a good donut is, yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
A great donut is really is really good, and a
don't is really good.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
That you write Native doughnuts, Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
There really is something about the hot now situation for
Krispy Kreme, but also I wanted to update y'all about
curry tree leaves. I think like a day or two
after we recorded that episode, I ordered some food from
Chai Pani and it came with what I strongly believe
(37:29):
our little fried curry curry leaves on top. And they
were so nice and it made me so happy.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Oh my gosh, you must tell me what I should order.
I love Chai Panni. Oh my gosh, that made me
so excited.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It was it was one of their chats. It was
one of their like appetizer kind of situations. Yeah, I'll
I'll remember it or pull it up on my phone
and let you know.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I could. I mean, I could just get a lot
of their appetizers and be really I mean, oh, they're terrific. Absolutely, yes, yes, there,
I'm going to look into that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Shout out as always to a Marana Rani who was
on our show back when we did those Ashuville episodes.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
A lovely human person.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yes, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
H Christine wrote, I really really enjoyed the Torta Pasqualina episode.
I'm not familiar with this version, but I'm very familiar
with a sixteenth century ancestor and a sixteenth century German cousin.
As you noted, Martino de Rassi aka Maestro Martino of
Como wrote about a torch in the Genovese style which
(38:49):
I have cooked. Sadly, I don't have an online recipe
of this dish. I developed it for an SCA event
that took place in January of twenty twenty, towards the
end of what we in Australia call Black Summer. Because
most of Eastern Australia was on fire, we couldn't go
outside much because of the air quality and the extreme heat. Still,
(39:09):
with some good friends, I made four hundred individual little
pies for this event, and the torte in Genevese style
was very very well received. This early version contains finely
chopped shard, walnuts, almonds, spices, and caviar or lumpfish row.
You can make this vegan very easily by removing the
fish row with fish eggs and making the pastry with
(39:32):
dairy free shortening. And the combination of nuts and shard
is very enjoyable, and it's even better if you do
include the fish row. Still, making four hundred tiny pies
in forty degree Celsia's heat with the windows closed and
no air conditioning is not something I recommend. It's also
worth noting that at this time, tort was a lidded
(39:52):
pie made in a shallow dish called tortillera. Let's go
with that sure. Moving in to the sixteenth century, Bartolomeo
Scappies Opera included a recipe for Genovese gattafura. I don't
know if you roll that are or not, Let's go
with it, which consists of two flat sheets of pastry
(40:14):
with a filling of sharred herbs and fresh cheese. This
I haven't cooked, but I'm intending to very soon. Scapie
prefers it must be served warm. As for the sixteenth
century German cousin I mentioned, Sabrina Welserin, who is part
of a wealthy mercantile family of Augsburg, compiled a cookbook
(40:35):
which contained a recipe for a Genovese tart. This is
a lidded pie with a filling of shard fresh cheese
and Parmesan cheese. It's a filling dish and great for vegetarians.
This was the first recipe of this family I cooked,
and this one is documented in my cooking blog, and
this includes the spectacular failure that was my first attempt.
(40:56):
But now I have questions. How did these recipes evolve
into the contemporary torta pascalina. Did Martinos torta combine with
Scapi's gattafura with the fish row replaced with chicken eggs?
And what, for the love of kitties is a gatta
fura given that the Italian for cat is goatta or gatto.
(41:21):
Did the cats lie on the pastry when it was
brought out of the oven. This would fit given Scapi
said it should be served warm and cats were found
around kitchens serving as rodent control. It's going to be
interesting to see if I can one day find the answers.
I will keep you updated about my cooking adventures.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Oh please do.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Oh my goodness, Yes, this is excellent.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
A I have not had fish row in a pie before,
and now I'm mad that I haven't.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, absolutely, because absolutely, yeah, h I love this. You're
always you write in about these historical things and theories.
It's so cool. But also four hundred individual little pies
for in an event in those conditions. Hats up to you, friends.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Oh yeah, that's what like that's over a hundred in fahrenheit.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
That's warm.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah no, and cooking it like cooking pies. Like the
other day, I was going to roast something and it's
hot here, so I was like, no, it's just gonna
make it worse.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It's gonna make it worse, and I'm gonna sweat and
I'm not gonna like it. And here we are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
No, but that sounds delicious. I'm glad it was very
well received. Yes, but yes, that sounds like a whole thing. Oh,
but so delightful.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
All of these.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
So cool.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
It is cool, history is cool, pie is cool. Cats
who knows? Many questions I have too? So I hope
to hear from you again.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yes, now I'm hungry for this thing that I still
haven't eaten.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Okay, we're fine.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
It always happens, Lauren, it does good time. Well, Thank
you so much to both of these listeners writing and
if you would like to write to us, you can
or email us hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do
hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio
for more podcasts from my Heart Radio. You can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
(43:43):
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to Save You production of iHeartRadio, I'm Any.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Lorn vocal Bam, and today we have an
episode for you about Kevin Bert.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Nope, I think I was.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We hadn't done a cheese episode in a minute, and
we love doing cheese episodes, and this was one of
the ones that we have not done before, and I
love it. I think I purchased some for a cheese
played a couple months ago, and you know, why not?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Why not? We do love our cheese episodes. It's funny
to me how many times we do them, and somehow
there's still billion much to talk about with the specific
cheese and all other cheeses. But yeah, this one we
were discussing before we started recording. How to a lot
written about it, a lot of reading today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, this was one of the ones where I was like, well,
I could keep reading about Canon beer for another couple
of days, but I don't have that kind of time,
So I'm going to I'm going to stop. I'm going
to assume that what I have written down in my
notes already is accurate enough for podcast work.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yes, but it continue.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
If you want to learn more and you're somebody who's
more an expert than us, oh yeah, there's plenty more
out there for you.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, if you want to dive deep into the microbiology
of Canon Bear, you can.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
You can, and we would love to hear from you
after you do. I know I've had camm beer. I
feel like this's impossible. I wouldn't have had it, but
I can't recall. I do love Brie, and Brie and
Cam and Bear are often put in the same conversation.
So I am determined to get it. I looked for it.
(02:05):
My local grocery store didn't have it, so I'm gonna
have to I'm gonna have to branch out, but I
am determined. We also talked about how we both got
cravings just when we were discussing the topic.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, every single helpful photo on a website just really
increased the craving.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
I was like, oh no, oh dear.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It was bad. That was before we even chose it.
It was just one of the possibilities. Here we are. Well,
you can see our past cheese episodes for more, maybe
specifically Breede, but all of them. All of them are
in the mix. Sure, and that brings us to our question,
(02:53):
camm bert, what is it?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Well, Well, Camembert is a type of soft cheese made
from cow milk with a bloomy white rind that's sort
of toothsome tender, and a creamy yellow interior that's basically
just melting at room temperature. Its flavor is savory and
a little buttery, fruity and a little funky sharp, like
(03:21):
mushrooms and earth and must It comes in small wheels
just about five inches across and a couple inches high.
That's maybe twelve by five centimeters, weighing just about nine
ounces or two hundred and fifty grams. Traditionally wrapped in
coated paper and then packaged into a pressed wood box,
often in a cylinder shape to match the cheese. It's
(03:42):
most often served as is as a table cheese, like
in a cheeseplate sort of situation. You know, maybe some
bread or crackers and other accompaniments like fruit, nuts, pickled veg.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What have you.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
But you can bake it with seasonings like herbs, spices,
or maybe jams or honey to make it even more
tempting and guey, or use it on sandwiches, or maybe
to make like a cheesy sauce for pasta or vegetables
or whatever you want to put a cheese sauce on,
which is everything probably right right, Yep, it's really good
(04:15):
if you enjoy slightly funky cheeses. Camm Beert is like
it's like if you could take a stone from a
cellar and make it just buttery, spreadable.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I like that. I do really like that kind of mushroomy,
earthy taste and cheese. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Oh it's so.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Good m hm.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
But okay.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
The term canon Beert can be applied to cheese is
made in the style anywhere by anyone in pretty much anyway.
But there is a protected designation of origin for cam
and Beert that has made tradition only in Normandy, France,
which is where the cheese is from. A true Camembert
de Normandy and that is what will be on the
(05:08):
label has to be made in one of four regions
in Normandy where they have the right grassland for the cows.
The cow herds have to be at least half made
up of the Normandy breed, which has been bread for
milk production. Like it's a little bit higher in protein
than usual, super tasty. There are regulations about how the
cows must be grazed and fed, like eighty percent of
(05:29):
their food has to come from the farm that they
live on. They have to feeld grays for over six
months a year. The milk obtained is kept raw, that
is unpasteurized. And yes, that means that any Camumbert that
you have had in the United States is not de
normandy because we've got a ban on import of raw
milk cheeses here.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
But anyway, there's regret here.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
But anyway, once that cow is milked for the Camumbert
de normandy, you've got seventy two hours to make the
milk into a.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Cheese that is ready to be matured.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And cheese very basically is what we do to milk
to preserve it and make it fun. And we do
this by getting a lot of the water out in
this case, not like too much water, So okay, you
start by getting the nutritious and tasty stuff and milk,
that is, the fats and the proteins to clump together,
(06:22):
and these will be your curds. Camembert is curdled using renent,
which is an animal protein that occurs in calves that
helps them digest milk. And you've also got a boost
here from naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria that are just
hanging out I mean in the dairy, but also all
around us, all the time, everywhere. Together, rennet and lactic
(06:46):
acid bacteria change the pH of the milk, making it
more acidic, which makes it curdle, leaving you with solid
curds and liquid whey. The curds are cut and scooped
out of the way and layered into these small individual moles,
gently being allowed to drain for a bit between each
layer to get more way out.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
They're not pressed.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Into the molds as many cheeses are, but rather like
allowed to drain slowly, mostly under their own weight, for
at least eighteen hours, and that gentle treatment helps preserve
the moisture levels and the soft texture of the kurds.
Once they're firm enough, they're turned out of the molds
and moved to a drying room, where they're turned once
over a period of time to distribute the inner moisture
(07:30):
level and allow the whole surface to dry out, and
then they're moved to a maturing room, sometimes in a
whole different facility run by people whose job it is
to specifically mature cheeses. I didn't know that this job existed.
It's called an affineur and I love this.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I do too, right, A good job opportunity. What training
do I need?
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Do I need to eat cheese to do it? I
think I can so okay.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
In the in the maturing process, the cheese will be
lightly salted and sprayed with a culture of what's going
to make it develop its rind and inner texture as
it ages. This specific species of mold that's named for
the cheese, Penicillium camemberti. It thrives in cool, humid conditions.
And part of what this friendly mold does is it
(08:29):
breaks down the lactic acid that was produced by those
friendly bacteria during the curdling, and it breaks it down
into carbon dioxide and water. And this is all happening
from the outside in. But as the concentration of lactic
acid inside the cheese shifts, more lactic acid will migrate
to the surface and get broken down. This, in turn,
(08:50):
will shimmy loose some of the calcium phosphate that's holding
together the proteins of the cheese in the interior. That
calcium phosphate will then migrate to the cheese's surface, making
the interior of the cheese softer. As the cheese undergoes
all of this, it also develops its flavors. Flavor molecules
(09:11):
involved include ones that are like cheesy and buttery, mushroomy, cabbagey, sweaty,
which sounds like a weird list, but I promise it's
like in a pleasant way. It is like a more
challenging cheese on the palette than brie, which is a
little bit like milky sweet creamy. In a more direct way,
(09:34):
this is a little weirder, which you know again if
you dig it.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Heck yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
As the mold grows, it also forms up into this soft,
thin rind all around the exterior of the cheese with
a velvety white surface. Sometimes the little bit of other
color in there too, like a maybe like a little
bit of rusty red or greenish blue. And for what
I understand, that happens mostly in the traditionally produced cheeses
(10:03):
that have some wild bacteria and or mold action going
in there. Kevin Bear matures for at least thirteen days
before being packaged, that is a rule under the Normandy regulations,
and cannot be sold under those regulations, or more specifically,
cannot be delivered to customers until they're twenty two days old.
(10:27):
I love this, Yeah, so specific right, okay, And this
cheese will continue ripening in its package and we'll start
to develop sharp flavors as amino acids get broken down
and ammonia is released. So the idea is like, probably
(10:47):
eat it fresh. I mean, unless you like that kind
of thing. I can't tell you what to do, though,
I will say that research has shown that the optimal
time to eat Cammbert is between three and seven weeks
of age.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Once again, Lauren, how do we get into this research
just eating cheese and rating how good it is depending
on how much time has passed.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
We are genuinely missing our life's calling.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Indeed, we must put things correct.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I believe in us. I think that we can make
our dreams come true, our cheese dreams. The best guy, yes,
but yeah so. Camonbert is often just enjoyed straight. Like
you know, you just take it out of the box,
let it come to room temperature, and then eat it
with some bagette or you know whatever, or you could
you know, put it into a tart or chiche or
(11:41):
on a sandwich or a pizza for a little bit
of French flair in there. I have seen it referred
to as France's national cheese.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yes, they seem to be very into it. Well, what
about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know, cheese is on purpose calorie dense food. That's
the concept of preserving those, you know, tasty nutritious things.
It's watch your portion sizes. It might be a treat,
but treats are so nice. Cheese treats are aces.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
They are difficult to watch your portions. But well, speaking
of we do have some numbers for you.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
We have a few.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So according to those production laws, there are currently one
five hundred and seventy seven municipalities in France that are
cleared to make cheese that can be labeled as Kemmbert
In Normandy, them's the facts. There are a couple festivals
that celebrate Kevimbert and other local cheeses around Normandy. One
(12:51):
in kem Bremer had its thirtieth anniversary this year, having
started in nineteen ninety five. It also features other protected
designation of origin products like poultry and wine. There's another
in Orbec that hosts up to ten thousand people a
year and includes a lot of like historical edutainment activities
like demonstrations of cheese processes and lace making.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
As of twenty nineteen, Kemembert made up just over half
of the total production of free type cheeses in France
at eighty eight thousand, three hundred and nine metric tons,
about half of which is sold in France. However, they
(13:43):
are into it. They're into it, They're into it. However,
of that total, only about five thousand metric tons is
certified Kevin bar to Normandy, it is the best selling
soft cheese in France and according to one survey, some
seventy French people say that it is the most emblematic
(14:05):
French cheese.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and there are a couple of contenders, but I
would say Camembert. I can see it.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's only the third best selling cheese
overall after Chevra and Comte.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Is that how you say that? Sure?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Great.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I don't know if the accent of you is there
or not. I can't remember, but I think so it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So with our powers combined, we still don't know French great.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But we're doing our best and that's what we're going
to do. In the history.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Section o hoofta.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yes we are, and we will get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So if you've listened to this show before, you're probably
familiar with the basic theory about the invention of cheese.
Though it does vary by region and type, it usually
boils down to storing dairy and something like an animal
bladder or a cave, and then agitation through movement and
or time just letting time pass, and then cheese.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, yeah, through the action of right a number of
friendly microbes that we wouldn't really learn about until very recently.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yes, which is why there it's often described as an accident,
like what happened here. When it comes to Cammber specifically,
it is a bit of a newer cheese in the
scheme of things. Normandy's climate and environment make it a
good place for raising cows and therefore making cheese because
(15:59):
camber is something of a very local and national point
of pride. As we've mentioned, there are a lot of
legends about how it was invented, but one in particular
gets repeated the most and here's how it generally plays out.
During the French Revolution in seventeen ninety one, a priest
was being hunted by angry revolutionaries in Normandy. He came
(16:23):
across a farmer named Many Hedel, who kindly sheltered him.
The priest was from the town of Bri and was
familiar with making the cheese that shared the town's name.
At Chi Sea is much older than Kim and bhaeron
you can see that episode. As mentioned, Hedel was also
familiar with cheesemaking, having learned it from her mother as
(16:44):
she grew up on the farm. In return for the
farmer's kindness, or maybe out of boredom or cravings, he
agreed to Dtaete how to make Bri But whether because
of the ingredients, environment acts, or something else, they ended
up making a different type of cheese that was similar
(17:04):
to Breathe but not quite it. It was what would
become canon Bear instead. However, others point out that some
evidence suggest that came and beer was recorded in the
Normandy valley over a century earlier, in the sixteen eighties.
It's possible that Herel and the priest improved upon the
cheese in some way, but there's no substantial evidence of that.
(17:27):
Others alleged that Herald was not from camen Bear but
a village nearby, and that's a big sticking point.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
For them, whatever the case. In these early days, the
mold that works to mature this cheese from the outside
and was just something that occurred naturally in the places
where people set the cheese down to age. And as
a result of this wild culture, you would have gotten
(17:54):
slightly different flavors in every batch and different colors on
the rind. Cheese like Camembert and brie would have been
gray green to green blue in color until sometime in
the nineteen hundreds, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Okay, well, whether this is true or not exaggerated or not,
soon after Harrell allegedly invented cam and beert, it had
become pretty popular, though mostly it was local since it
was a soft cheese and therefore difficult to transport, and
we're talking really local distribution in the beginning, like Aral's
friends and the nearby town and that's it. It was
(18:35):
so local that apparently no one really gave it an
official name, which brings us to another legend. Napoleon named
the cheese okay, yes, as the story goes Napoleon was
passing through and someone offered him the cheese, and he
loved it so much he kissed the woman who gave
it to him on the cheek and named it officially
(18:58):
after the town, or Napoleon the third did, or neither
of them did, but the Napoleons do get credit for
the whole thing. Yep. The Industrial Revolution made it possible
to ship camembert to other places. On top of that,
we get the invention of the wooden container that was
(19:18):
used to transport it.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, And like the circumstance of this cheese coming up
alongside railways booming in like the mid to late eighteen
hundreds absolutely influenced its popularity, Like it was suddenly a
a product that people were talking about and wanted, and
b it was able to be transported into city centers.
(19:41):
It is thought that producers began selecting specifically for that
Penicillium camberti strain around this time, like right around the
turn of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
And P.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Camemberti is interesting because it's a white mutation of the
types of penns Ilium that were growing wild that gave
those those green blue gray colors. Researchers would isolate it
in nineteen oh six from samples of Camembert cheese, and
they began producing it in labs cheese science.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Then in nineteen oh nine a bunch of producers got
together and formed an association to protect and promote the
traditional production of Kevinbert. The English translation is something along
the lines of like the Association of Producers of True
or Authentic Camembert of Normandy.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Wow, okay, mmmmm, I don't want to mess with them.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
No, you don't, I really don't.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I'm not being cavalier serious, but this brings us to
another legend. According to Saver, in nineteen twenty six, a
New Yorker made the journey to Vitmotier, which is located
near Normandy, to pay his respects Torel by laying a
wreath of flowers on her grave. And he claimed the
(21:04):
cheese Kim and Bert had cured him of his stomach ailments.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I read that he was a doctor and he was
overseas during World War One ish and said that right,
the cheese had helped him and or his patients.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yes, he also donated twenty dollars and the Association of
producers of Jude Normandy Kevinbert realized that this was a
real opportunity. His donation went to a sculpture of Harel,
and many speculate that this helped solidify her space in
history like this, Really the legend is now what we're
(21:45):
saying is true. The statue would eventually be destroyed during
bombing and World War II.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Normandy is a little
famous for having gone through it. But the statue was
rebuilt after the war. Apparently it was as a gift
from this group of cheese factory workers in Ohio, and
they had one of Harel made for themselves too.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Still, this cheese was pretty regional for a while, but
that did change with World War One, where the cheese
was popular amongst French soldiers after they got a taste
of it, and once they returned home, they started asking
for it and word and demand spread, and not only
in France but internationally.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yeah, I think it was part of rations for French
soldiers at some point, and we've heard that story repeated
about various different foods in all kinds of episodes. That
attention was not all good, however, because between both World
Wars and then you know all of the disruption that
those brought, and then post war large dairies getting in
(22:52):
on production. The traditional production of Camembert started fading, but
that Makers Association was working on bringing it back.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yes, they were. In nineteen eighty three, Camembert received an
AOC or a controlled designation of origin, which we've talked
about numerous times. However, as we said at the top,
cheeses that do not follow the laid out rules for
the AOC or are processed outside of Canon Beert can
still call their products Camon beer. If you want the
(23:26):
AOC product, the label reads Camon Beert in Normandy.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah, the cheese received a broader European designation an AOP
in nineteen ninety six. Around that same time, those larger
cheese producers started challenging the rules of these distinctions, suggesting
that traditionally make Camibert could just be labeled as vera
(23:54):
tab true or authentic and allow factory made is to
share that Camumbart to Norman Dy label. But they have
been shut down.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yes. In two thousand and seven, two of the biggest
AOC canon beer producers in Normandy started using microfiltered milk
to meet some international health standards around unpasteurized milk, which
is what the traditional product calls for, and in doing
so they lost their AOC label.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Discussions about this have continued around the same time and
or later and or continually, like other producers were trying
to use low heat treated milk and get the rule
changed to allow that. But that committee, that association is insistent,
(24:47):
and the whole thing has been so hotly debated, like
larger facilities will insist that their product is safer and
therefore superior, and the smaller facilities insist that the microbiome
of the milk before processing is integral to the quality
of the final product, which is therefore superior.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's great it is And speaking of hotly debated things,
oh jeez. McDonald's France rolled out the temporary menu item
the mc kevin Bear in twenty thirteen in France. No
one was particularly happy about it.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
No one.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh, I this was my first rabbit hole of the
episode because I got to that note and I was like, oh, no,
I need to know everything about this.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
So the Guardian reported about it and quoted one Patrick Marcier,
then the president of that producer association, and Furthermore, he's
the head of this one like particularly renowned organic farm
that produces cavin bear.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
They quoted him, he said.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
We feel used. They did this without consulting us, without
even warning us, warning us. He does seem really cool.
His farm seems really cool. I read a lot about it.
But this was on the part of McDonald's. This was
part of a larger release of like artisanal cheese based
(26:24):
sandwiches in French McDonald's that year, including Comte and Raclette.
I think the concepts in general were like, okay, so,
like you've got like a chewy roll and like a
better than average like local burger patty, and then it's
topped with like lettuce, tomato, a garlicky mayo, and a
(26:44):
thick slice of whatever the cheese in question was, which
earnestly sounds great. Yeah, like I'm mad about how much
I want to be eating that right now. Totally eat
that anyway. Furthermore, apparently McDonald's in France are fancier than
(27:06):
ours and they are the second highest grossing market for
the company outside of the United States.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Oh that's fascinating. Okay one, in my experience, every other
country has better McDonald's.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
US, Okay, sure, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Two, France kind of notoriously hates McDonald's, Like that's kind
of their whole look at America ruining our which I'm
not get it. Don't believe me. I get it, sure,
ruining like the Eifel towers here and here's the McDonald's.
So I did not know that about them being such
a big.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Market apparently, especially like in the past tennis years or
so with initiatives like this, they've really made there.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
They really made.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
The French McDonald's more French, you know, like they have
nicer seed and lighting.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
They've got a cafe where you can.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Get real coffee products and like maclonol and stuff like that,
and you know, and like they're just they're just like, oh,
like you like French food, can we just can we
give that to you? And they're like, yeah, sure, it's delicious,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wow. Well, I personally I go to McDonald's every time
I visit. I don't eat there, but I go in
to look at their menu and see what it's all about,
because I just find it very interesting. So listeners, if
you have any thoughts about this or any McDonald's you've
been to, I would love to know because I just
in my head, I just have this association with you know,
(28:42):
French people. No McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, I feel like we could definitely do because we
have done an episode on McDonald's, but it was mostly
about the wild history of what's his name who founded it?
Ray Kroc, Ray Krock you And we didn't get that
far into international McDonald's sananigans.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
And we absolutely could.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We could. It's an insane level of our We're gonna
do it one day. But of our pizza toppic.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Crust and pizza yeah yeah, international pizza huts alone, yes,
but further international pizza dealings. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Well, listeners, please write in well. In twenty seventeen, the
Google Doodle honored Hell Hell as part of as the
creator of Camenbert. So they're following, They're all. In the
following year, there was a push to allow all came
and Beert made in France to use the label Camembert
(29:50):
de Norman d. But there was a lot of pushback
and protest against the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, yeah, and it has been shot down as far
as I'm personally aware. Then, in twenty twenty four, researchers
called attention to this potential problem for the future of
kem and beer production, that being the supply of Penicillium kemmberti,
that friendly mold that makes it work. The researchers found
(30:19):
that this selected strain of penicillium doesn't have great genetic
diversity because it is lab raised and it's reproduced asexually,
meaning that people are producing identical clones with like no
opportunities to get new genetic material in there. A healthier
population is always more genetically diverse, so this means that
(30:42):
a labs can't produce they can produce like a relatively
limited amount, so they're struggling to keep up with demand.
And furthermore, like if some disease that affects this mold
strain happened to break out, it could be devastating. However,
science is working on it. There is ongoing research into
(31:04):
different strains and how they can be improved. There's also
research into making plant based plant milk based cheeses using
pi Kim.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
And Marty So.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Cheese science, Cheese science, So cool, really cool. Cheese episodes
are always fun, a little complicated, but fun. That's why
we got to space them out a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I don't know what would have happened to you if
you had done that whole cheese show you were planning.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I would have it would have been no, no, you
would have.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Gone on an internet rabbit hole and been absorbed by
the internet.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
The cheese continuum would have eaten me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, so that's good. We're we're taking our time, but
they are fun. And please, listeners, let us know if
you have any favorite preparations of Camembert recipes or you
just eat it like it is. I think that's amazing. Yeah,
but please let us know. Yeah, that's what we have
(32:17):
to say about Camonbert for now.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
It is.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and we are going to get into that as soon
as we get back from one more quick break for
a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
We we're back.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And we're back with
m Earth Eat much room nice Yeah, our crode in
(32:57):
about a couple of things. Turkish Delight, as you know,
is a pretty unique confectionery and can cover a wide
range of flavors and sweetness. I don't recall having anything
really memorable here in the US, and it has been
a while since I have seen any imported. When I
was in London recently, our office did have a small
box that was really good. It was a simple rosewater one,
(33:18):
just a slight sweetness and it was very enjoyable. Kicking
myself now for not making note of the brand. Hopefully
I'll find a good one here that is not too expensive. Now.
I've never had Kafelta fish. I've seen the jarred, but
have never heard of it being made fresh. Something I
will need to look out for. Schitake mushrooms are definitely
(33:41):
a great one to use. I try to keep dried
ones available to use in broth, especially for ramen or fu.
Cooking fresh is challenging for me as I struggle to
keep them from getting rubbery, but they do provide a
lot of variety. Crispy cream has mostly disappeared around me,
except for a few small stores that have them as
(34:02):
an option. I personally think both Crispy and Duncan have
really dropped in quality over the last five years or so.
They have become the well it is a donut to me.
I will look for a small bakery or local shop first.
Bring on the saison, my second favorite behind sours, and
(34:24):
love that Unibrow teamed up with Megadeath a few years
ago to do one called a toulamnd after their song
of the same name. Beer episodes are always fun, informative
and will bring on opinions. Now you have me wondering
about a curry tree as well as always thank you
for bringing us knowledge and joy. Well, thanks for listening
(34:48):
and writing in I I love this. I actually had
a tou lamonde, but yeah I have. I didn't know. Oh,
I didn't know what.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I had no idea. It was in collaboration with Mega Death.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
No, and Lauren and I were discussing beforehand as cheese
is very a lot written about it when it comes
from France, very verbose. A lot of our beer episodes
are similarly complicated if they're from Germany because of tax
laws and very dense, dry documents.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And just a lot of things to read about in
terms of like the grain bill, like what specific ingredients
are going in there and where they are from and
the history of those things. And it gets like right,
like in this episode about cheese, like I reached a
point where I was like, okay, I have to start
googling the back like the mold culture, because I need
(35:49):
to know more about that before I can finish writing
about this cheese, which is fascinating and also holy crap.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yep, pretty much. But people have written in about their
opinions about says On, so you're right about that, and
we'll be hearing some of those messages coming up. But
in the meantime, we got a lot of Krispy Kream
messages to get through. I tell you what people have
thoughts I am interested in.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I kind of.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
I wouldn't say I agree with you, because it's not
like I was eating at Crispy Kream or Dunkin Donuts
a lot beforehand. But I feel like in my experience,
a lot of more artisan are like fancy donut places
opened a couple of years ago, like before the pandemic. Yeah,
so I wonder if there was some kind of thing
(36:42):
that happened where the like nice donuts that is not
from these chain restaurants was having a moment. I don't know,
but a good donut is, yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
A great donut is really is really good, and a
don't is really good.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
That you write Native doughnuts, Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
There really is something about the hot now situation for
Krispy Kreme, but also I wanted to update y'all about
curry tree leaves. I think like a day or two
after we recorded that episode, I ordered some food from
Chai Pani and it came with what I strongly believe
(37:29):
our little fried curry curry leaves on top. And they
were so nice and it made me so happy.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Oh my gosh, you must tell me what I should order.
I love Chai Panni. Oh my gosh, that made me
so excited.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It was it was one of their chats. It was
one of their like appetizer kind of situations. Yeah, I'll
I'll remember it or pull it up on my phone
and let you know.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I could. I mean, I could just get a lot
of their appetizers and be really I mean, oh, they're terrific. Absolutely, yes, yes, there,
I'm going to look into that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Shout out as always to a Marana Rani who was
on our show back when we did those Ashuville episodes.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
A lovely human person.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yes, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
H Christine wrote, I really really enjoyed the Torta Pasqualina episode.
I'm not familiar with this version, but I'm very familiar
with a sixteenth century ancestor and a sixteenth century German cousin.
As you noted, Martino de Rassi aka Maestro Martino of
Como wrote about a torch in the Genovese style which
(38:49):
I have cooked. Sadly, I don't have an online recipe
of this dish. I developed it for an SCA event
that took place in January of twenty twenty, towards the
end of what we in Australia call Black Summer. Because
most of Eastern Australia was on fire, we couldn't go
outside much because of the air quality and the extreme heat. Still,
(39:09):
with some good friends, I made four hundred individual little
pies for this event, and the torte in Genevese style
was very very well received. This early version contains finely
chopped shard, walnuts, almonds, spices, and caviar or lumpfish row.
You can make this vegan very easily by removing the
fish row with fish eggs and making the pastry with
(39:32):
dairy free shortening. And the combination of nuts and shard
is very enjoyable, and it's even better if you do
include the fish row. Still, making four hundred tiny pies
in forty degree Celsia's heat with the windows closed and
no air conditioning is not something I recommend. It's also
worth noting that at this time, tort was a lidded
(39:52):
pie made in a shallow dish called tortillera. Let's go
with that sure. Moving in to the sixteenth century, Bartolomeo
Scappies Opera included a recipe for Genovese gattafura. I don't
know if you roll that are or not, Let's go
with it, which consists of two flat sheets of pastry
(40:14):
with a filling of sharred herbs and fresh cheese. This
I haven't cooked, but I'm intending to very soon. Scapie
prefers it must be served warm. As for the sixteenth
century German cousin I mentioned, Sabrina Welserin, who is part
of a wealthy mercantile family of Augsburg, compiled a cookbook
(40:35):
which contained a recipe for a Genovese tart. This is
a lidded pie with a filling of shard fresh cheese
and Parmesan cheese. It's a filling dish and great for vegetarians.
This was the first recipe of this family I cooked,
and this one is documented in my cooking blog, and
this includes the spectacular failure that was my first attempt.
(40:56):
But now I have questions. How did these recipes evolve
into the contemporary torta pascalina. Did Martinos torta combine with
Scapi's gattafura with the fish row replaced with chicken eggs?
And what, for the love of kitties is a gatta
fura given that the Italian for cat is goatta or gatto.
(41:21):
Did the cats lie on the pastry when it was
brought out of the oven. This would fit given Scapi
said it should be served warm and cats were found
around kitchens serving as rodent control. It's going to be
interesting to see if I can one day find the answers.
I will keep you updated about my cooking adventures.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Oh please do.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Oh my goodness, Yes, this is excellent.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
A I have not had fish row in a pie before,
and now I'm mad that I haven't.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, absolutely, because absolutely, yeah, h I love this. You're
always you write in about these historical things and theories.
It's so cool. But also four hundred individual little pies
for in an event in those conditions. Hats up to you, friends.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Oh yeah, that's what like that's over a hundred in fahrenheit.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
That's warm.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah no, and cooking it like cooking pies. Like the
other day, I was going to roast something and it's
hot here, so I was like, no, it's just gonna
make it worse.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
It's gonna make it worse, and I'm gonna sweat and
I'm not gonna like it. And here we are. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
No, but that sounds delicious. I'm glad it was very
well received. Yes, but yes, that sounds like a whole thing. Oh,
but so delightful.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
All of these.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
So cool.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
It is cool, history is cool, pie is cool. Cats
who knows? Many questions I have too? So I hope
to hear from you again.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yes, now I'm hungry for this thing that I still
haven't eaten.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Okay, we're fine.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
It always happens, Lauren, it does good time. Well, Thank
you so much to both of these listeners writing and
if you would like to write to us, you can
or email us hello at savorpod dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
We're also on social media. You can find us on
Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do
hope to hear from you. Save is production of iHeartRadio
for more podcasts from my Heart Radio. You can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
(43:43):
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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