August 13, 2025 • 40 mins
This hot and numbing tofu dish features cascading layers of flavors – and a near-mythic backstory. Anney and Lauren dig into the science and history of mapo tofu.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Save You reprediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we
have an episode for you about Mapoutofu.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, well, was there any particular reason this was on
your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It had been on our list for a long time.
I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately, but
it had been on our list for a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It's a favorite dish of mine.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And I knew it was going to be a little
bit intense, like I'm intimidated by the pronunciations, and I
knew that there was going to be like a lot
of reading to go into it. But I was like,
you know what, I want to think about Mapotofu for
a couple of days.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Let's do that one and think about it. We did,
and think about it. We did. I also love Mapotofu.
I uh after our Sheshchuan Peppercorn episode, I got some immediately.
Oh yeah, it was wonderful, and now I'm in the
position of I would like to have it again.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was extremely mad the entire time that I was
reading about this that I was not eating it at
that current moment.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So I'm going to rectify it soon. Oh gosh, yeah,
probably me too. So I have been to Shangdu, China,
which is we're going to be talking about, and I'm
very angry at myself. I didn't. I don't think I
had any mapa tofu when I was there. Oh really,
I don't think I knew about it at that point.
(01:35):
I did have the hot pot, that's the famous hot
pot that made me pass out because it was so
hot just for a couple of seconds. But yeah, fell
out of my chair and things. But I'm very sad
reading this research. I was like, I was right there.
I was right there next time, next time. Yeah. That
(01:57):
they've got a lot of pandas in shang Doo. They're
like pandas. Yeah. All right, Well, maybe maybe you can
see our tofu episode Shoshan Peppercorn chili oil, Sui sauce
and Goachu chong kind of I would say, sure, yeah, related.
(02:21):
But I guess this does bring us to our question,
Oh it does tofu? What is it? Well?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Mapo tofu is a savory dish that can be made
in many ways, but is most often or were modernly traditionally,
cubes of tofu often silk and tofu coated in this
like thick, rich pike and sauce that's made up of
a little bit of ground beef or ground pork, a
(02:54):
some kind of fermented bean paste, hot chili oil, spicy
numbing sesshon pepper coins, and supporting flavors like flavorings like
fresh garlic and ginger, rice, wine stock, and dark soy sauce.
It winds up being silky in texture with this interesting
bit of like crunch and or chew from the bits
(03:14):
in the sauce, and just layers of savory flavors set
off by a touch of like bright funk, and then
this cascade of spicy and numbing, like you feel the
heat and then you get a little tingly numb, and
then you feel the heat again. The sauce will be
like a deep red orange in color from the chili
(03:37):
oil and sometimes the bean paste, and it's usually topped
with some like fresh spring onions for contrast. It's often
served with a bowl of just like simple steamed white
rice to kind of mellow it out and stop up
the sauce. Maybe with some side dishes, I don't know, dumplings, vegetables.
It is incredibly satisfying without feeling too heavy. It's like
(03:58):
being on a delicious roller coast.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It is savory fireworks. It's it's. My favorite part of
it is the tofu, the texture of the tofu and
how it absorbs the flavors. But I read a lot
of people describe it as a symphony, like it has
to be a symphony and everything has to be balanced out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(04:24):
Oh it's so good. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
In order to really explain how this dish works, let's
break down a bit about how it's made and all
of those ingredients. So very basically, when you're cooking it,
you're you're building a sauce that has a lot of
oil to it and so at like somewhere between a
simmer and a deep fry. You're you're building in flavors
by adding in these different ingredients, and a lot of
(04:49):
these are common in Sishwang cuisine, which is where this
dish is from. Okay, So let's talk about all of
these these seasoning elements that you're putting into the sauce. So,
first off, ground meat as a seasoning, you might say,
because in lots of modern cuisines that are wealthier and
more industrialized, people tend to think of meat as like
the main event of a dish, but of course there
(05:11):
are lots of traditional dishes that use meat as a seasoning,
like putting a little bit of a ham and stewed greens,
or into a creamy pasta like carbonara, or like an
omelet kind of situation. Yeah, and recipes that I've read
really range in your proportion of meat to tofu anywhere
from like one part meat to two parts tofu to
(05:31):
like six parts tofu. This is a personal preference. There's
no wrong answer unless someone is telling you that you
have a wrong answer, and then y'all can argue it out.
But yeah, ground beef or pork is usually called for
these days for convenience, but you can mince your own
or use a different savory ingredient like chicken or mushrooms
or seafood. Traditionally, you're looking for a lean cut of
(05:54):
meat because the sauce is so high in vegetable oil
of whatever kind that you don't want to like gunk
it up further with a fatty meat. The fermented bean
paste in question can be a couple of different things.
Modernly people are really into And here's where I start
trying to pronounce Chinese. I'm so sorry into Duban also
(06:18):
called Dubanjiang, and specifically a variety called Pichien Dubanjiang, which
is like a geographical and standard protected product, you know,
like like champagne. Pichian is the old name for a
district in Chengdu, which is the Sechuan city where this
dish originated. As Anny was saying earlier, and the process
(06:38):
to make this type involves like fermenting a specific type
of broad beans aka fava beans, and then also fermenting
a specific type of chili peppers, and then fermenting them
both together, all in specific ways. I don't think I've
had it by itself, but I understand it's like super earthy,
savory and like spicy salty. Depending on how long it
(07:01):
has been fermenting, it might be more like whole beans
or more bean paste, but more Traditionally recipes called for douche,
which are like whole black soybeans that have been fermented
and salted, which are more rich and savory and like
funky salty in flavor. But you can use either or both,
(07:24):
or a different fermented bean paste of your choosing, like
gochu jong, you can make some at home from whatever
you want, and I can't stop you, and I wouldn't
if I could, never, No, that would be weird. Soich
one peppercorn again, you can see your whole episode about it.
But briefly, it's a type of spice in the citrus
family that has this really complex flavor that's both spicy
(07:45):
and like tingly numbing, like like your tongue has a
funny bone, or your mouth briefly went to sleep. So
brief note about how heat works in food, like hot flavor,
you know, So when things feel spicy hot when you
eat them, it's because there are compounds in them that
trigger the same nerve receptors in your mouth that sense
(08:08):
actual physical heat, So they are chemically tricking your mouth
into thinking that it's slightly on fire. And different kinds
of like spicy things will affect different receptors, like chili
peppers affect one type of nerve receptor. A second type
is activated by mustards and other pungent things like cloves, garlic, cinnamon,
and ginger. Black pepper hits both, and sish one pepper
(08:32):
hits both. Plus this third type altogether that has nothing
to do with heat, and that third receptor is one.
It's the one that your body uses to sense basically tickles,
like like extremely like light touch, like when a bug
lands on you.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
The compound responsible for this is called sand shual, which
is named after a related plant in the same genus
as sish one peppercorn. And it takes a little bit
longer for our nervous system to register this, like up
to a full minute, but when it does, it produces
the same feeling as the pins and needles that you
get when a limb falls asleep or when you hit
(09:10):
your elbow just wrong, or feel a vibration. So when
you eat sishwan peppercorn, you get heat plus pungency plus
this numbing tingly sensation and it also like that numberly
tingling share, let's go with it. Yeah, that also kind
of like cools your nerves down. So in this case,
(09:32):
you can eat a little bit more spicy hot stuff.
It just changes up, just changes up what you're feeling.
So yeah, I appreciate that. But okay, speaking of spice,
chili oil is oil that has had dried chilis toasted
in it, sometimes along with other warm or pungent spices
(09:54):
and seasonings. You often find it or make it with
the chili bits left in, for like a crispy chewy
complement to the silkiness of the oil. Sometimes it's sold
as chili crisp. Yeah, it's varyingly spicy and varyingly otherwise
seasoned and okay. Sauces like this are often thinned and
flavored with meat stock of some kind, And if you
(10:17):
make it on your own, you can make it with
some of the other usual flavorings, like a garlic ginger
and a shashing wine, which is a category of Chinese
rice wine. As I've said in other episodes, outside of China,
it's kind of hard to get good quality product. It's
usually sold as a cooking wine. A decent substitute is
dry sherry. If you use storbot stock that does not
(10:38):
have these flavorings, you can add them, or you know,
you can add more of them either way. Dark soy
sauce is a type of seasoning common in sauces in
Chinese cuisines. It's a little bit more intense than regular
or so called light soy sauce. And I don't mean
light as in low sodium. I mean light is in
not dark, although both are dark in color. Dark soy
(10:59):
sae is a little thicker and saltier and balanced with
like a little bit of sweetness, so a little goes
a long way. You're also going to want to thicken
this sauce to taste with a little bit of corn starch,
which you're going to prepare in a slurry at about
like a one to one ratio with cool water. This
also helps the sauce achieve like a silky, clingy sort
(11:21):
of texture. If you've ever admired the good sheen on
Chinese type sauces, that's a quality that this slurry technique
helps create. Other starches like potato or tapioca can also
work for this type of slurry. And then tofu, it's
right there in the name, we should.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Talk about it.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Tofu, of course, is a soy milk that has been
coagulated like a cheese to give you solid curds which
are then pressed and drained to different levels of firmness.
And your two basic varieties of tofu, no one come
at me for our purposes today. Your two basic varieties
of tofu are ones that are coagulated with nagari, which
(11:58):
are an extract of salty sea water it's mostly magnesium
chloride with a few other salts, and then tofu that's
coagulated with gypsum also known as calcium sulfate, which is
a different salt. And I didn't cover this in like
all of its intricacy in the tofu episode, and I'm
not going to go into it that deeply here, suckers.
(12:22):
It'll be a tail for another day. But very basically,
just as what happens with dairy cheese is these different
types of coagulants lead to different textures in your final tofu.
Nagari types tend to be firmer, good for like getting
a sear or crumbling or other more sturdy preparations. You
might squish these types a little bit to drain them
(12:44):
before cooking. Gypsum types tend to be looser, more gelatinous,
good for like blending or other more gentle preparations. You
don't want to squish these because they'll like shatter into
kind of jello like shards. You can find both varieties
from soft to medium to firm to extra firm, and
(13:05):
within those ranges, it's like kind of up to your
texture preference and what you're using it for. Mapow tofu
is modernly traditionally made with gypsum type tofu also called
silken tofu, and a medium to firm firmness is best here.
This means that you're going to add it towards the
end of cooking and be just real gentle with it.
(13:25):
Lots of recipes also call for blanching it before adding
it to firm it up, just to pinch, but yeah,
it gives you a lovely like slippery feel in the
final dish. All of that said, and Dagari type tofu
in a soft firmness would also work well here. Some
people would argue that that is more appropriate or might
(13:46):
have some other preference entirely, and I respect.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That very diplomatic vocabulary.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I love it to get hands up in the defensive posture.
So yes, as you may have guessed by now, there
are many iterations on this dish, including in other cuisines
like Korean, including local versions of fermented ingredients and Japanese,
(14:15):
which is generally milder, and Chinese American here, I've often
seen this as a vegetarian dish without the meat, but
people do all kinds of riffs like map how eggplant
map how chickpeas map how on noodles instead of rice
like map how lasagna or pizza or poutine. You might
put in for the beef element, wag you short robes.
(14:38):
I don't know, put in shrimp or scallops instead of meat.
Put some vegetables in it, oh, diced water. Chestnuts and mushrooms.
Woodier mushrooms specifically are two that I've seen in a
lot of recipes. But you know, different recipes call for
everything from like putting some leafy greens in there to
some sliced bell peppers. Anyway, had it. It's just such
(15:01):
a comfort.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Food, it really is, the way it soaks into the rice, yes, yes, oh.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And I will say that if you're looking for these
ingredients in the US and you don't have a good
Asian market with a Chinese section somewhere somewhere around you,
there's an online shop called the Mala Market that has
a range of Sishwan products. I haven't shopped with them personally,
but I saw them recommended by a lot of the
sources that I used. So yeah, that's Mala, just m
(15:36):
A l a, which is a term meaning hot and numming.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah. Well, a lot about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It really depends on how you make it. But this
is a dish that will fill you up and keep
you going. It's got a lot of protein, a lot
of fats.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You know, do do eat a vegetable. We always recommend
eating a vegetable. Drink some water, you might. Oh well,
we have some numbers observations for you.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, uh yeah, not really, not particularly. There's one that's
number adjacent. Okay, So Shengdhu was the third city or
the third place. I guess that Unesco enshrined as a
center of gastronomy, and that happened in twenty ten. Also,
there is a museum of Sishwan cuisine in a suburb
(16:31):
a Shengdu called Pedo District. This is where that popular
bean paste stuff is from. Yeah, and there I have
read that you can do a museum tour, including like
historical cookware and tableware. They also have some traditional style
ferments going, like you can personally stir some of that
fancy bean paste. They've got chef demos, gardens, a tea house,
(16:56):
a fancy kitchen, god temple, and they also do some
cooking clubs.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Is that sounds cool? Listeners as always, if you've gone
oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I've read that they're really welcome to tourists from various places,
and that they will go out of their way to
make sure that you've got a guide that can help
you figure everything out. You might get laughed at by
school children who are there on a.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Trip, but this is true. I was told this when
I was there. It happened. I'm glad that someone had
warned me. It was fair. I wasn't at that museum.
But another similar case, Well, we have quite the interesting
(17:49):
history for you. Oh heck, we do.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, and we are going to get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break. For
a word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes,
thank you. Okay, So again see our Tofu episode. But
Tofu has been around in China for at least two
(18:14):
thousand years. Historians think that she Shuan peppercorn has been
around in China for about the same time.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
And you can see the episode we did on those
for more. Meanwhile, Chile's arrived in China in the sixteenth century.
Since this dish in particular is so popular, it has
a lot of legends behind it, and here is one
that is reported the most frequently Mapo Tofu is named
(18:41):
after its creator, Chin Mapo. She opened to Tofu eatery
in North chong Du, China, perhaps with her spouse, in
eighteen sixty two, largely aimed at serving the middle class.
At the time, it was called Chin Sieongshing Restaurant. It
was a small establishment located near Wanfu Bridge, which meant
that they got a lot of foot traffic. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It was also near the city's north gate, where a
lot of agricultural products from rice to produce to meat
to cooking oil were coming out or being brought out
of the country and.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Into the city. Yes, and this restaurant was known for
this tofu dishes. Chin Mapo had a very particular and
somewhat unique way of cooking the tofu, resulting in a
texture and taste that quickly won over a lot of customers.
Since the taste of the tofu was mild, it absorbed
and balanced the stronger, spicier flavors of Seshuan cuisine really well,
(19:35):
and the texture was a nice contrast. It was beloved
enough that people started calling her signature dish after her
Mapo Tofu or Mapos's tofu. Okay, So let's break that
down oh Okay. The name Ma Po allegedly comes from
a nickname for the owner of the restaurant and creator
(19:56):
of the dish. It translates to pock faced Grandma Ma,
meaning pock faced or pock marked Poe meaning elderly woman,
which was her nickname. I read it was meant fondly
and that the poks were scars left from smallpox. I
also read somewhere that her name was Win Choo Choo,
(20:19):
but at the time it was traditioned for married women
in China to change their name to their husband's last
name combined with their marital last name. Her husband's name
was Chen, and he was the one who had pock
marks on his face, so her name slash nickname was
largely based on him, the older wife of pock marked Chin.
(20:41):
Mysteries History m yep. There are other largely unverified variations
on the beginnings of Mapo Tofu that boiled down to
hungry customers and to cook working with the ingredients that
they had to make something to satisfy them. Some tellings
for the story posit that oil laborers would stop on
their journeys to rest at the restaurant and give some
(21:04):
of their oil or even sliced pork or beef to
Chin ma Po, requesting that she make them a dish.
Over time, she developed a way to cook the tofu
that imparted a desirable taste and look, and this type
of eating wasn't uncommon for the working class in Chongdu
at the time. Essentially, the establishment would provide things like rice, condiments, seasoning, pickles,
(21:27):
cooking knowledge, and customers would bring ingredients they wanted to
add to all those things for the chefs to cook.
Or Another story goes that because of the smallpox scars,
Chin Mapo was somewhat of an exile, especially after she
lost her husband in some versions, but one rainy night,
(21:50):
a rich industrialist took shelter inside her restaurant in chong Dou.
She scrambled through her ingredients to make him something special.
Arriving at a tofu in poor dish that really impressed him.
He told all of his contexts go try her tofu
if they were in the area. I can't say it's
not true, but this sounds like a kind of romance.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah, but right yeah, Also Shundhu, I think I've
been saying it Shangdu anyway again, apologies for my pronunciations here,
but yes, regarding the pork versus beef thing, there is
like a bunch of argument around very specific parts of
(22:34):
the Internet about whether pork or beef was the original
meat used in this dish, and furthermore, which is more
like authentic or appropriate, and a lot of writers will
point to the first non printed recipe More on that
in a sec which does use beef.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Though I have read the.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Position that that recipe was an update to the original
pork recipe that was made later when beef became less expensive,
but I wasn't there. Yeah, and you know, of course,
as always, people will use whatever is available and preferred.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So yes, which it sounds like this is how this
recipe got started, as with many recipes. Yeah, sure, whatever
the case. By nineteen oh nine, the dish had become
their signature dish and they changed the restaurant's name to
Chin Mapo Tofu Restaurant. The restaurant was featured in a
Changdu guide around this time, and it was listed as
(23:28):
one of the most famous restaurants in Changdu. After her
husband's death, Chin Mapo was able to keep the restaurant
going on her own for a while, but it soon
became too much for her. She or perhaps one of
her daughters, hired an assistant in the nineteen twenties, she
Chiangshun to lighten the load. He helped cook and wait tables.
(23:51):
According to some food writing at the time, he was
the one that introduced the fermented bean paste pi shian
dobu jiang and from the previously used sliced pork to
ground pork or ground beef, two key elements in our
modern understanding of classic Mapo tofu. He also helped modernize
the restaurant in general, a different episode we haven't done,
(24:16):
but a curse. Research suggests that Pishang dobujan goes back
at least three hundred years in China, perhaps as far
back as sixteen sixty six, and Pichan is in Changdu Yeah,
now called Peda District. Ye Yes. Some writings suggests that
she Chiangshan didn't use dobum jong but instead relied on
(24:36):
fermented black beans or dos h a douchi, and the
sheshwan pepper powder was served table side to taste, which
I find really interesting. Yeah. Right. The dish soon spread
throughout China and inspired similar dishes in Korea and Taiwan,
and of course there were variations across China.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, it is really difficult to pin down a timeline
for all of that, especially in the sources that were
available to me as an American English speaker. Yes, but
whatever the case, this had all kind of already entered
into this mythical part of history by this time. For example,
(25:21):
missus Chen appears as a character in this three part
celebrated historical novel trilogy about Sichuan, first published in nineteen
thirty six and nineteen thirty seven. The author is a
lie Ji Wren, and the book is called in translation,
The Great Wave. The trilogy is a ripple on stagnant water.
The original restaurant, Chen Mapo Tofu, had to relocate after
(25:46):
a flood in nineteen forty seven, and there have been
a different a few different locations that have opened and
closed and opened again since then.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
The first written recipe for Mapo Tofu popped up in
the nineteen fifties, provided by Chen Mapotu Fu, and it
was pretty different from what a lot of us might
expect of it. It featured more meats, no du bon jiong,
but doshe it did have Sichuan peppercorn though.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, so okay, So this is after the Communist Revolution,
and the recipe appeared in this super interesting eleven volume
series that was commissioned by the Chinese government, And I
get the idea that it was a little bit like propaganda,
e as the food and beverage industry had recently been
nationalized under the new regime. But yeah, it's got hundreds
(26:32):
upon hundreds of recipes in it from like twenty different
regional cuisines. So yeah, I'm not sure exactly how this
recipe was arrived at, but here we have it. Meanwhile,
in Japan, one chen kenman who had immigrated from China
was this notable chef who opened a Sishwan restaurant in
(26:53):
the late nineteen fifties, and he helped popularize dishes like
a mild style mapoto that's seasoned with a touch of
miso and sugar to kind of Japanese affia it and
it became a whole thing in Japan. Like by the
early seventies, all of these instant MAPOs, sauces and canned
mapo tofu hit the market.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
In the nineteen eighties, Chin mapo tofu was featured in
a documentary collaboration between Japan and China that was meant
to show what China had to offer to the world,
and they showcased this dish.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Then in nineteen ninety three, the TV show Iron Chef
debuted in Japan, featuring chen Kenichi, the son of chen
Kenman and a successful restauranteur in his own right.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
He was he was Iron Chef China on the.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Show, and his popularity on this show and his own
restaurant versions of the dish pushed it even further, like
he now has a small fast casual chain of Mabo
Dofu specific restaurants, Mabo Dofu being the Japanese word for
the dish. Also, this doesn't really have a lot to
do with it, but I really I read about it
and I needed to put in a note here. So
there was this Japanese shown in manga that came out
(28:06):
in nineteen ninety five called Chuka Ichiban or China's Number One,
which is about a boy who sets out to become
the best chef of Chinese cooking in period eighteen hundreds China,
Like this is like a fantastical cooking and venture cereal
where chefs compete for supremacy.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
And the second issue is about ma Po Tofu.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
It was also made into an anime in the late nineties,
and apparently it was inspired by Chenkinichi.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Oh, I'm going to have to look into that.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm realizing. I'm realizing that we have not done in
an episode about Iron Chef, and that we probably need to.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yes, we should, we should. I say, I breathe heavily
because I have a friend who loves Iron Chef and
she has such strong opinions that I'm worried I won't satisfy,
it won't be enough whatever I do.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, yeah, I also realized that my japan notes in
this outline are like heavily Iron Chef influenced, which are
probably not the full story, but it's the notes.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
It's the notes that I read. So here we are. Yeah,
that it might be a shorter episode, but definitely these
kind of other varieties of Matpo Tofu that popped up.
We could do a separate we could do a separate
thing on oh easy. Yes, Okay. So it's not entirely
clear when and how Mapo Tofu rose to popularity in
(29:36):
the United States, but many suspect it was in part
thanks to buzzy seshwon Chinese restaurants like Mission Chinese Food
and the early two thousands that introduced Americans to this
type of cuisine if they hadn't known about it before,
even if only through the media.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, like there were English language printings of Mapo recipes
by like the nineteen seventies at least, but it didn't
seem to really catch on until later. It might have
helped that around that time English food writer Fusha Dunlop
began publishing books about Sichuan cuisine starting in two thousand
and one.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
And also the rise of.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Food TV, which we've talked about before, including shows like
Iron Chef, which aired dubbed on the Food Network starting
in nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yes, and as people grew more interested in trying new
things and new experiences like the spicy, numbing sensation of
a lot of Sheechuan cuisine that was new to a
lot of people in the United States, the interest in
sheecheuon cuisine kept growing. Another reason for the expansion of
Sechuan restaurants in the United States in the sixties, Sescheuan
(30:38):
peppercorns were banned in the US because they were believed
to carry disease. The band was lifted in two thousand
and five, though the peppercorns had to be heat treated,
but that was eventually lifted too. So since so much
of this cuisine does use utilize secheuon peppercorns, it makes
sense to me that once that band was gone, we
(30:58):
get more sechhuon cuisine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Absolutely also, Okay, So I couldn't find out a lot
about this, but apparently in twenty twenty four, this one
Chinese seasoning blend brand paired up with this food culture
platform to do a six month study of the past
(31:21):
and present of mapou tofu around Hugdu like. They interviewed
chefs and home cooks, and they held cooking workshops and
eventually put out this one hundred page report called The
Hunt from Mappo, which describes the dish as a as
a living communal creation.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I love that, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I read that on like a Chinese fashion website and
I so, I'm not sure if it's true, but it's
so specific that I don't understand. I don't know why
someone would lie about that.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
It would be a very very specific lie, for sure. Yeah, yeah,
but people do have. It was the research on this
one was really interesting to see how it's changed over
the years from what we can find. Yeah, but also
just people have their very strong taste of it should
(32:19):
be this way or oh yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Just really specific memories around it and who they learned
to the recipe from and who they learned to the
cooking techniques from, and just like these like deep childhood
kind of things that of course are going to influence
your strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, and you listeners know that we love that, so
we would love to hear from any of you if
you've got recipes, yeah, opinions, just wonderful memories that will
make us crave even more this dish. But I think
that's what we have to say about Mapo Tofu for now,
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and going to get into that as soon as we
get back from one more quick break forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, And
we're back with listener roller coaster with a satisfying m
so good, so good. So we have another a bit
(33:37):
longer a listener mail for you today, which you know
we love, so don't let that hold time back, don't
shy away, so we're going to split it. Cecilia wrote,
it has been quite a while since you did the
episode about animal crackers. When I saw that title, I
was hoping you would discuss the change in animal crackers
from the ones I remembered as a child, but you
didn't mention them. My grocery store only carries the kind
(33:59):
you talked to, the ones that come in the little
circus car boxes and taste kind of like Graham crackers.
But the ones I remember from long ago are still
made by Stofers. I'll attach some picks, as I did
find some in another grocery store. I brought two big bags.
Those animal crackers look and taste different. The crackers are
(34:21):
very plain looking. The animals have no features, just shapes.
I don't know of any other American cookies they taste like,
but I think they taste similar to some butter cookies
I buy in France. Sometimes. I want to thank you
for introducing Michelle Norris's podcast to Your Mama's Kitchen. That
has become another of my favorites. I've listened to most
(34:43):
of the episodes and none have been disappointing, and I
have a recommendation for you. You may already have a
list too long to keep up with, but anyway, I
think you'd enjoy an episode of the Ologies podcast with
Ali Ward. I know the name is hard to understand,
but if you check this website ologies dot com, maybe
you'll begin to understand. The episode I'm recommending is the
(35:07):
first one on that page formology or the study of Cheese.
She goes into all kinds of information in trivia about cheese.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Cecilia continues, and speaking of cheese, did anyone ever write
in to clarify the pronunciation of guda? The French say guda,
which is I think the way it's normally pronounced in America,
But in Holland, where the cheese originates, it's pronounced like
how to. Only the h sound is a really guttural sound,
(35:36):
like the in German or Scots so carawra.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
In Dutch, all geese are pronounced that way.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We lived in Holland for three months, and this includes,
of course Van Gogh's name, which is pronounced like fun cook.
It sounds weird if you haven't heard it before, and
there's not much point in using that pronunciation with other
Americans because you would just have to explain why you
said it that way. Back to the cheese. I used
to buy cheese from a cheesemonger in the little town
(36:06):
where we lived in Holland. We lived in the part
of the Netherlands that's also called Holland. There were lots
of big wheels of gouda on the shelf behind the counter,
and when I asked for gouda, the seller would ask
me how old. As I remember, the choices were three, six,
nine months and older. The older it was stronger the flavor.
I liked the middle range, so would ask for six
or nine months. They would pull out a big wheel
(36:27):
and cut a wedge the size that I asked for.
I could have picked up fresh Dutch gouda in the supermarket,
already cut and wrapped in plastic, but this was more
fun and gave me a chance to practice speaking Dutch. Also,
have you been having cooler weather there. It's been cooler
and rainy here for the past three days. It's strange
for August, but I'm enjoying the break from the heat.
It's still very humid though, Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It is humid. Yes, yes to the humid.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, and yeah, yeah, we have had a few days
of slightly cooler weather, like we had shockingly cooler weather,
like I had windows open.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
We did. Me and one of my best friends have
a very silly joke that is not funny at all,
but we laugh at it where we just text each
other any storm's coming from Phantom Star Wars every time
a storm comes in. And I have to tell you,
this has been a lot of just random storms lately,
(37:23):
so we've been using that text message quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, like I didn't have to water my outdoor plants
for like a week.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
It was it was wild.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
But but yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah, we'll have to
I know the type of animal crackers that you're talking about,
and we'll have to look into it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
This is the type of investigation that we are prepared for.
I'm so glad you enjoy. Michelle Norris's podcast is amazing.
I'm really really thrilled anytime I can get someone to
listen to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, and she was such a gem to speak with.
Just what a what a lovely, warm human person.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yes, absolutely, and we'll have to check out. I haven't
heard of ologies, but I will check it out.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Oh I have heard of it. I haven't I have
not listened to it. It is on my extremely long list.
But I'm glad that they talk about things like the
study of cheese.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And also Annie, heck you right in the ear for
giving me all of.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Those I don't know what you're talking about. Those pronunciations
happen to fall on your side of the listener veil
had nothing to do with me. You chooses the word
the listener moco.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Uh in English, that is this particular sound that you're
usually like actively trying not.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
To say into microphones. But I love linguistics.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I love the several different ways that human beings try
to pronoun Vinston Bengo's name. I know that in like
British English, it's usually van go, which I think is
getting closer to the Dutch version.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Okay, hey, listeners, right now, how do you pronounce van
go from where you are? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
But oh, but that cheese experience, Oh yeah, anytime that
you get to talk to an actual cheese bonger is
such a good day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oh and I love this. I love that you can
ask for basically how old the cheese is and then
get a wedge the size of your choosing. That's pretty amazing,
a beautiful hazard that beats mine going to the supermarket
any day. Oh well, thank you so much Cecilia for
(39:45):
writing in listeners. If you'd like to write toes, you can.
You can email us at hello at savorpod dot com.
We're also on social media.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
You can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky at
savor pod, and we do hope to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Savor is a production of by heart Rate.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks us always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Hello, and welcome to Save You reprediction of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we
have an episode for you about Mapoutofu.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, well, was there any particular reason this was on
your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It had been on our list for a long time.
I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately, but
it had been on our list for a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
It's a favorite dish of mine.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And I knew it was going to be a little
bit intense, like I'm intimidated by the pronunciations, and I
knew that there was going to be like a lot
of reading to go into it. But I was like,
you know what, I want to think about Mapotofu for
a couple of days.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Let's do that one and think about it. We did,
and think about it. We did. I also love Mapotofu.
I uh after our Sheshchuan Peppercorn episode, I got some immediately.
Oh yeah, it was wonderful, and now I'm in the
position of I would like to have it again.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was extremely mad the entire time that I was
reading about this that I was not eating it at
that current moment.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So I'm going to rectify it soon. Oh gosh, yeah,
probably me too. So I have been to Shangdu, China,
which is we're going to be talking about, and I'm
very angry at myself. I didn't. I don't think I
had any mapa tofu when I was there. Oh really,
I don't think I knew about it at that point.
(01:35):
I did have the hot pot, that's the famous hot
pot that made me pass out because it was so
hot just for a couple of seconds. But yeah, fell
out of my chair and things. But I'm very sad
reading this research. I was like, I was right there.
I was right there next time, next time. Yeah. That
(01:57):
they've got a lot of pandas in shang Doo. They're
like pandas. Yeah. All right, Well, maybe maybe you can
see our tofu episode Shoshan Peppercorn chili oil, Sui sauce
and Goachu chong kind of I would say, sure, yeah, related.
(02:21):
But I guess this does bring us to our question,
Oh it does tofu? What is it? Well?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Mapo tofu is a savory dish that can be made
in many ways, but is most often or were modernly traditionally,
cubes of tofu often silk and tofu coated in this
like thick, rich pike and sauce that's made up of
a little bit of ground beef or ground pork, a
(02:54):
some kind of fermented bean paste, hot chili oil, spicy
numbing sesshon pepper coins, and supporting flavors like flavorings like
fresh garlic and ginger, rice, wine stock, and dark soy sauce.
It winds up being silky in texture with this interesting
bit of like crunch and or chew from the bits
(03:14):
in the sauce, and just layers of savory flavors set
off by a touch of like bright funk, and then
this cascade of spicy and numbing, like you feel the
heat and then you get a little tingly numb, and
then you feel the heat again. The sauce will be
like a deep red orange in color from the chili
(03:37):
oil and sometimes the bean paste, and it's usually topped
with some like fresh spring onions for contrast. It's often
served with a bowl of just like simple steamed white
rice to kind of mellow it out and stop up
the sauce. Maybe with some side dishes, I don't know, dumplings, vegetables.
It is incredibly satisfying without feeling too heavy. It's like
(03:58):
being on a delicious roller coast.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It is savory fireworks. It's it's. My favorite part of
it is the tofu, the texture of the tofu and
how it absorbs the flavors. But I read a lot
of people describe it as a symphony, like it has
to be a symphony and everything has to be balanced out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(04:24):
Oh it's so good. Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
In order to really explain how this dish works, let's
break down a bit about how it's made and all
of those ingredients. So very basically, when you're cooking it,
you're you're building a sauce that has a lot of
oil to it and so at like somewhere between a
simmer and a deep fry. You're you're building in flavors
by adding in these different ingredients, and a lot of
(04:49):
these are common in Sishwang cuisine, which is where this
dish is from. Okay, So let's talk about all of
these these seasoning elements that you're putting into the sauce. So,
first off, ground meat as a seasoning, you might say,
because in lots of modern cuisines that are wealthier and
more industrialized, people tend to think of meat as like
the main event of a dish, but of course there
(05:11):
are lots of traditional dishes that use meat as a seasoning,
like putting a little bit of a ham and stewed greens,
or into a creamy pasta like carbonara, or like an
omelet kind of situation. Yeah, and recipes that I've read
really range in your proportion of meat to tofu anywhere
from like one part meat to two parts tofu to
(05:31):
like six parts tofu. This is a personal preference. There's
no wrong answer unless someone is telling you that you
have a wrong answer, and then y'all can argue it out.
But yeah, ground beef or pork is usually called for
these days for convenience, but you can mince your own
or use a different savory ingredient like chicken or mushrooms
or seafood. Traditionally, you're looking for a lean cut of
(05:54):
meat because the sauce is so high in vegetable oil
of whatever kind that you don't want to like gunk
it up further with a fatty meat. The fermented bean
paste in question can be a couple of different things.
Modernly people are really into And here's where I start
trying to pronounce Chinese. I'm so sorry into Duban also
(06:18):
called Dubanjiang, and specifically a variety called Pichien Dubanjiang, which
is like a geographical and standard protected product, you know,
like like champagne. Pichian is the old name for a
district in Chengdu, which is the Sechuan city where this
dish originated. As Anny was saying earlier, and the process
(06:38):
to make this type involves like fermenting a specific type
of broad beans aka fava beans, and then also fermenting
a specific type of chili peppers, and then fermenting them
both together, all in specific ways. I don't think I've
had it by itself, but I understand it's like super earthy,
savory and like spicy salty. Depending on how long it
(07:01):
has been fermenting, it might be more like whole beans
or more bean paste, but more Traditionally recipes called for douche,
which are like whole black soybeans that have been fermented
and salted, which are more rich and savory and like
funky salty in flavor. But you can use either or both,
(07:24):
or a different fermented bean paste of your choosing, like
gochu jong, you can make some at home from whatever
you want, and I can't stop you, and I wouldn't
if I could, never, No, that would be weird. Soich
one peppercorn again, you can see your whole episode about it.
But briefly, it's a type of spice in the citrus
family that has this really complex flavor that's both spicy
(07:45):
and like tingly numbing, like like your tongue has a
funny bone, or your mouth briefly went to sleep. So
brief note about how heat works in food, like hot flavor,
you know, So when things feel spicy hot when you
eat them, it's because there are compounds in them that
trigger the same nerve receptors in your mouth that sense
(08:08):
actual physical heat, So they are chemically tricking your mouth
into thinking that it's slightly on fire. And different kinds
of like spicy things will affect different receptors, like chili
peppers affect one type of nerve receptor. A second type
is activated by mustards and other pungent things like cloves, garlic, cinnamon,
and ginger. Black pepper hits both, and sish one pepper
(08:32):
hits both. Plus this third type altogether that has nothing
to do with heat, and that third receptor is one.
It's the one that your body uses to sense basically tickles,
like like extremely like light touch, like when a bug
lands on you.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
The compound responsible for this is called sand shual, which
is named after a related plant in the same genus
as sish one peppercorn. And it takes a little bit
longer for our nervous system to register this, like up
to a full minute, but when it does, it produces
the same feeling as the pins and needles that you
get when a limb falls asleep or when you hit
(09:10):
your elbow just wrong, or feel a vibration. So when
you eat sishwan peppercorn, you get heat plus pungency plus
this numbing tingly sensation and it also like that numberly
tingling share, let's go with it. Yeah, that also kind
of like cools your nerves down. So in this case,
(09:32):
you can eat a little bit more spicy hot stuff.
It just changes up, just changes up what you're feeling.
So yeah, I appreciate that. But okay, speaking of spice,
chili oil is oil that has had dried chilis toasted
in it, sometimes along with other warm or pungent spices
(09:54):
and seasonings. You often find it or make it with
the chili bits left in, for like a crispy chewy
complement to the silkiness of the oil. Sometimes it's sold
as chili crisp. Yeah, it's varyingly spicy and varyingly otherwise
seasoned and okay. Sauces like this are often thinned and
flavored with meat stock of some kind, And if you
(10:17):
make it on your own, you can make it with
some of the other usual flavorings, like a garlic ginger
and a shashing wine, which is a category of Chinese
rice wine. As I've said in other episodes, outside of China,
it's kind of hard to get good quality product. It's
usually sold as a cooking wine. A decent substitute is
dry sherry. If you use storbot stock that does not
(10:38):
have these flavorings, you can add them, or you know,
you can add more of them either way. Dark soy
sauce is a type of seasoning common in sauces in
Chinese cuisines. It's a little bit more intense than regular
or so called light soy sauce. And I don't mean
light as in low sodium. I mean light is in
not dark, although both are dark in color. Dark soy
(10:59):
sae is a little thicker and saltier and balanced with
like a little bit of sweetness, so a little goes
a long way. You're also going to want to thicken
this sauce to taste with a little bit of corn starch,
which you're going to prepare in a slurry at about
like a one to one ratio with cool water. This
also helps the sauce achieve like a silky, clingy sort
(11:21):
of texture. If you've ever admired the good sheen on
Chinese type sauces, that's a quality that this slurry technique
helps create. Other starches like potato or tapioca can also
work for this type of slurry. And then tofu, it's
right there in the name, we should.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Talk about it.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Tofu, of course, is a soy milk that has been
coagulated like a cheese to give you solid curds which
are then pressed and drained to different levels of firmness.
And your two basic varieties of tofu, no one come
at me for our purposes today. Your two basic varieties
of tofu are ones that are coagulated with nagari, which
(11:58):
are an extract of salty sea water it's mostly magnesium
chloride with a few other salts, and then tofu that's
coagulated with gypsum also known as calcium sulfate, which is
a different salt. And I didn't cover this in like
all of its intricacy in the tofu episode, and I'm
not going to go into it that deeply here, suckers.
(12:22):
It'll be a tail for another day. But very basically,
just as what happens with dairy cheese is these different
types of coagulants lead to different textures in your final tofu.
Nagari types tend to be firmer, good for like getting
a sear or crumbling or other more sturdy preparations. You
might squish these types a little bit to drain them
(12:44):
before cooking. Gypsum types tend to be looser, more gelatinous,
good for like blending or other more gentle preparations. You
don't want to squish these because they'll like shatter into
kind of jello like shards. You can find both varieties
from soft to medium to firm to extra firm, and
(13:05):
within those ranges, it's like kind of up to your
texture preference and what you're using it for. Mapow tofu
is modernly traditionally made with gypsum type tofu also called
silken tofu, and a medium to firm firmness is best here.
This means that you're going to add it towards the
end of cooking and be just real gentle with it.
(13:25):
Lots of recipes also call for blanching it before adding
it to firm it up, just to pinch, but yeah,
it gives you a lovely like slippery feel in the
final dish. All of that said, and Dagari type tofu
in a soft firmness would also work well here. Some
people would argue that that is more appropriate or might
(13:46):
have some other preference entirely, and I respect.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That very diplomatic vocabulary.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I love it to get hands up in the defensive posture.
So yes, as you may have guessed by now, there
are many iterations on this dish, including in other cuisines
like Korean, including local versions of fermented ingredients and Japanese,
(14:15):
which is generally milder, and Chinese American here, I've often
seen this as a vegetarian dish without the meat, but
people do all kinds of riffs like map how eggplant
map how chickpeas map how on noodles instead of rice
like map how lasagna or pizza or poutine. You might
put in for the beef element, wag you short robes.
(14:38):
I don't know, put in shrimp or scallops instead of meat.
Put some vegetables in it, oh, diced water. Chestnuts and mushrooms.
Woodier mushrooms specifically are two that I've seen in a
lot of recipes. But you know, different recipes call for
everything from like putting some leafy greens in there to
some sliced bell peppers. Anyway, had it. It's just such
(15:01):
a comfort.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Food, it really is, the way it soaks into the rice, yes, yes, oh.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
And I will say that if you're looking for these
ingredients in the US and you don't have a good
Asian market with a Chinese section somewhere somewhere around you,
there's an online shop called the Mala Market that has
a range of Sishwan products. I haven't shopped with them personally,
but I saw them recommended by a lot of the
sources that I used. So yeah, that's Mala, just m
(15:36):
A l a, which is a term meaning hot and numming.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah. Well, a lot about the nutrition.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It really depends on how you make it. But this
is a dish that will fill you up and keep
you going. It's got a lot of protein, a lot
of fats.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You know, do do eat a vegetable. We always recommend
eating a vegetable. Drink some water, you might. Oh well,
we have some numbers observations for you.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah, uh yeah, not really, not particularly. There's one that's
number adjacent. Okay, So Shengdhu was the third city or
the third place. I guess that Unesco enshrined as a
center of gastronomy, and that happened in twenty ten. Also,
there is a museum of Sishwan cuisine in a suburb
(16:31):
a Shengdu called Pedo District. This is where that popular
bean paste stuff is from. Yeah, and there I have
read that you can do a museum tour, including like
historical cookware and tableware. They also have some traditional style
ferments going, like you can personally stir some of that
fancy bean paste. They've got chef demos, gardens, a tea house,
(16:56):
a fancy kitchen, god temple, and they also do some
cooking clubs.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Is that sounds cool? Listeners as always, if you've gone
oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I've read that they're really welcome to tourists from various places,
and that they will go out of their way to
make sure that you've got a guide that can help
you figure everything out. You might get laughed at by
school children who are there on a.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Trip, but this is true. I was told this when
I was there. It happened. I'm glad that someone had
warned me. It was fair. I wasn't at that museum.
But another similar case, Well, we have quite the interesting
(17:49):
history for you. Oh heck, we do.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, and we are going to get into that as
soon as we get back from a quick break. For
a word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes,
thank you. Okay, So again see our Tofu episode. But
Tofu has been around in China for at least two
(18:14):
thousand years. Historians think that she Shuan peppercorn has been
around in China for about the same time.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
And you can see the episode we did on those
for more. Meanwhile, Chile's arrived in China in the sixteenth century.
Since this dish in particular is so popular, it has
a lot of legends behind it, and here is one
that is reported the most frequently Mapo Tofu is named
(18:41):
after its creator, Chin Mapo. She opened to Tofu eatery
in North chong Du, China, perhaps with her spouse, in
eighteen sixty two, largely aimed at serving the middle class.
At the time, it was called Chin Sieongshing Restaurant. It
was a small establishment located near Wanfu Bridge, which meant
that they got a lot of foot traffic. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It was also near the city's north gate, where a
lot of agricultural products from rice to produce to meat
to cooking oil were coming out or being brought out
of the country and.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Into the city. Yes, and this restaurant was known for
this tofu dishes. Chin Mapo had a very particular and
somewhat unique way of cooking the tofu, resulting in a
texture and taste that quickly won over a lot of customers.
Since the taste of the tofu was mild, it absorbed
and balanced the stronger, spicier flavors of Seshuan cuisine really well,
(19:35):
and the texture was a nice contrast. It was beloved
enough that people started calling her signature dish after her
Mapo Tofu or Mapos's tofu. Okay, So let's break that
down oh Okay. The name Ma Po allegedly comes from
a nickname for the owner of the restaurant and creator
(19:56):
of the dish. It translates to pock faced Grandma Ma,
meaning pock faced or pock marked Poe meaning elderly woman,
which was her nickname. I read it was meant fondly
and that the poks were scars left from smallpox. I
also read somewhere that her name was Win Choo Choo,
(20:19):
but at the time it was traditioned for married women
in China to change their name to their husband's last
name combined with their marital last name. Her husband's name
was Chen, and he was the one who had pock
marks on his face, so her name slash nickname was
largely based on him, the older wife of pock marked Chin.
(20:41):
Mysteries History m yep. There are other largely unverified variations
on the beginnings of Mapo Tofu that boiled down to
hungry customers and to cook working with the ingredients that
they had to make something to satisfy them. Some tellings
for the story posit that oil laborers would stop on
their journeys to rest at the restaurant and give some
(21:04):
of their oil or even sliced pork or beef to
Chin ma Po, requesting that she make them a dish.
Over time, she developed a way to cook the tofu
that imparted a desirable taste and look, and this type
of eating wasn't uncommon for the working class in Chongdu
at the time. Essentially, the establishment would provide things like rice, condiments, seasoning, pickles,
(21:27):
cooking knowledge, and customers would bring ingredients they wanted to
add to all those things for the chefs to cook.
Or Another story goes that because of the smallpox scars,
Chin Mapo was somewhat of an exile, especially after she
lost her husband in some versions, but one rainy night,
(21:50):
a rich industrialist took shelter inside her restaurant in chong Dou.
She scrambled through her ingredients to make him something special.
Arriving at a tofu in poor dish that really impressed him.
He told all of his contexts go try her tofu
if they were in the area. I can't say it's
not true, but this sounds like a kind of romance.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah, but right yeah, Also Shundhu, I think I've
been saying it Shangdu anyway again, apologies for my pronunciations here,
but yes, regarding the pork versus beef thing, there is
like a bunch of argument around very specific parts of
(22:34):
the Internet about whether pork or beef was the original
meat used in this dish, and furthermore, which is more
like authentic or appropriate, and a lot of writers will
point to the first non printed recipe More on that
in a sec which does use beef.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Though I have read the.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Position that that recipe was an update to the original
pork recipe that was made later when beef became less expensive,
but I wasn't there. Yeah, and you know, of course,
as always, people will use whatever is available and preferred.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So yes, which it sounds like this is how this
recipe got started, as with many recipes. Yeah, sure, whatever
the case. By nineteen oh nine, the dish had become
their signature dish and they changed the restaurant's name to
Chin Mapo Tofu Restaurant. The restaurant was featured in a
Changdu guide around this time, and it was listed as
(23:28):
one of the most famous restaurants in Changdu. After her
husband's death, Chin Mapo was able to keep the restaurant
going on her own for a while, but it soon
became too much for her. She or perhaps one of
her daughters, hired an assistant in the nineteen twenties, she
Chiangshun to lighten the load. He helped cook and wait tables.
(23:51):
According to some food writing at the time, he was
the one that introduced the fermented bean paste pi shian
dobu jiang and from the previously used sliced pork to
ground pork or ground beef, two key elements in our
modern understanding of classic Mapo tofu. He also helped modernize
the restaurant in general, a different episode we haven't done,
(24:16):
but a curse. Research suggests that Pishang dobujan goes back
at least three hundred years in China, perhaps as far
back as sixteen sixty six, and Pichan is in Changdu Yeah,
now called Peda District. Ye Yes. Some writings suggests that
she Chiangshan didn't use dobum jong but instead relied on
(24:36):
fermented black beans or dos h a douchi, and the
sheshwan pepper powder was served table side to taste, which
I find really interesting. Yeah. Right. The dish soon spread
throughout China and inspired similar dishes in Korea and Taiwan,
and of course there were variations across China.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, it is really difficult to pin down a timeline
for all of that, especially in the sources that were
available to me as an American English speaker. Yes, but
whatever the case, this had all kind of already entered
into this mythical part of history by this time. For example,
(25:21):
missus Chen appears as a character in this three part
celebrated historical novel trilogy about Sichuan, first published in nineteen
thirty six and nineteen thirty seven. The author is a
lie Ji Wren, and the book is called in translation,
The Great Wave. The trilogy is a ripple on stagnant water.
The original restaurant, Chen Mapo Tofu, had to relocate after
(25:46):
a flood in nineteen forty seven, and there have been
a different a few different locations that have opened and
closed and opened again since then.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
The first written recipe for Mapo Tofu popped up in
the nineteen fifties, provided by Chen Mapotu Fu, and it
was pretty different from what a lot of us might
expect of it. It featured more meats, no du bon jiong,
but doshe it did have Sichuan peppercorn though.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, so okay, So this is after the Communist Revolution,
and the recipe appeared in this super interesting eleven volume
series that was commissioned by the Chinese government, And I
get the idea that it was a little bit like propaganda,
e as the food and beverage industry had recently been
nationalized under the new regime. But yeah, it's got hundreds
(26:32):
upon hundreds of recipes in it from like twenty different
regional cuisines. So yeah, I'm not sure exactly how this
recipe was arrived at, but here we have it. Meanwhile,
in Japan, one chen kenman who had immigrated from China
was this notable chef who opened a Sishwan restaurant in
(26:53):
the late nineteen fifties, and he helped popularize dishes like
a mild style mapoto that's seasoned with a touch of
miso and sugar to kind of Japanese affia it and
it became a whole thing in Japan. Like by the
early seventies, all of these instant MAPOs, sauces and canned
mapo tofu hit the market.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
In the nineteen eighties, Chin mapo tofu was featured in
a documentary collaboration between Japan and China that was meant
to show what China had to offer to the world,
and they showcased this dish.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Then in nineteen ninety three, the TV show Iron Chef
debuted in Japan, featuring chen Kenichi, the son of chen
Kenman and a successful restauranteur in his own right.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
He was he was Iron Chef China on the.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Show, and his popularity on this show and his own
restaurant versions of the dish pushed it even further, like
he now has a small fast casual chain of Mabo
Dofu specific restaurants, Mabo Dofu being the Japanese word for
the dish. Also, this doesn't really have a lot to
do with it, but I really I read about it
and I needed to put in a note here. So
there was this Japanese shown in manga that came out
(28:06):
in nineteen ninety five called Chuka Ichiban or China's Number One,
which is about a boy who sets out to become
the best chef of Chinese cooking in period eighteen hundreds China,
Like this is like a fantastical cooking and venture cereal
where chefs compete for supremacy.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
And the second issue is about ma Po Tofu.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
It was also made into an anime in the late nineties,
and apparently it was inspired by Chenkinichi.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Oh, I'm going to have to look into that.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm realizing. I'm realizing that we have not done in
an episode about Iron Chef, and that we probably need to.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Yes, we should, we should. I say, I breathe heavily
because I have a friend who loves Iron Chef and
she has such strong opinions that I'm worried I won't satisfy,
it won't be enough whatever I do.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, yeah, I also realized that my japan notes in
this outline are like heavily Iron Chef influenced, which are
probably not the full story, but it's the notes.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
It's the notes that I read. So here we are. Yeah,
that it might be a shorter episode, but definitely these
kind of other varieties of Matpo Tofu that popped up.
We could do a separate we could do a separate
thing on oh easy. Yes, Okay. So it's not entirely
clear when and how Mapo Tofu rose to popularity in
(29:36):
the United States, but many suspect it was in part
thanks to buzzy seshwon Chinese restaurants like Mission Chinese Food
and the early two thousands that introduced Americans to this
type of cuisine if they hadn't known about it before,
even if only through the media.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, like there were English language printings of Mapo recipes
by like the nineteen seventies at least, but it didn't
seem to really catch on until later. It might have
helped that around that time English food writer Fusha Dunlop
began publishing books about Sichuan cuisine starting in two thousand
and one.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
And also the rise of.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Food TV, which we've talked about before, including shows like
Iron Chef, which aired dubbed on the Food Network starting
in nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yes, and as people grew more interested in trying new
things and new experiences like the spicy, numbing sensation of
a lot of Sheechuan cuisine that was new to a
lot of people in the United States, the interest in
sheecheuon cuisine kept growing. Another reason for the expansion of
Sechuan restaurants in the United States in the sixties, Sescheuan
(30:38):
peppercorns were banned in the US because they were believed
to carry disease. The band was lifted in two thousand
and five, though the peppercorns had to be heat treated,
but that was eventually lifted too. So since so much
of this cuisine does use utilize secheuon peppercorns, it makes
sense to me that once that band was gone, we
(30:58):
get more sechhuon cuisine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Absolutely also, Okay, So I couldn't find out a lot
about this, but apparently in twenty twenty four, this one
Chinese seasoning blend brand paired up with this food culture
platform to do a six month study of the past
(31:21):
and present of mapou tofu around Hugdu like. They interviewed
chefs and home cooks, and they held cooking workshops and
eventually put out this one hundred page report called The
Hunt from Mappo, which describes the dish as a as
a living communal creation.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I love that, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I read that on like a Chinese fashion website and
I so, I'm not sure if it's true, but it's
so specific that I don't understand. I don't know why
someone would lie about that.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
It would be a very very specific lie, for sure. Yeah, yeah,
but people do have. It was the research on this
one was really interesting to see how it's changed over
the years from what we can find. Yeah, but also
just people have their very strong taste of it should
(32:19):
be this way or oh yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Just really specific memories around it and who they learned
to the recipe from and who they learned to the
cooking techniques from, and just like these like deep childhood
kind of things that of course are going to influence
your strong opinions.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, and you listeners know that we love that, so
we would love to hear from any of you if
you've got recipes, yeah, opinions, just wonderful memories that will
make us crave even more this dish. But I think
that's what we have to say about Mapo Tofu for now,
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
We do already have some listener mail for you, though,
and going to get into that as soon as we
get back from one more quick break forward from our sponsors.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, And
we're back with listener roller coaster with a satisfying m
so good, so good. So we have another a bit
(33:37):
longer a listener mail for you today, which you know
we love, so don't let that hold time back, don't
shy away, so we're going to split it. Cecilia wrote,
it has been quite a while since you did the
episode about animal crackers. When I saw that title, I
was hoping you would discuss the change in animal crackers
from the ones I remembered as a child, but you
didn't mention them. My grocery store only carries the kind
(33:59):
you talked to, the ones that come in the little
circus car boxes and taste kind of like Graham crackers.
But the ones I remember from long ago are still
made by Stofers. I'll attach some picks, as I did
find some in another grocery store. I brought two big bags.
Those animal crackers look and taste different. The crackers are
(34:21):
very plain looking. The animals have no features, just shapes.
I don't know of any other American cookies they taste like,
but I think they taste similar to some butter cookies
I buy in France. Sometimes. I want to thank you
for introducing Michelle Norris's podcast to Your Mama's Kitchen. That
has become another of my favorites. I've listened to most
(34:43):
of the episodes and none have been disappointing, and I
have a recommendation for you. You may already have a
list too long to keep up with, but anyway, I
think you'd enjoy an episode of the Ologies podcast with
Ali Ward. I know the name is hard to understand,
but if you check this website ologies dot com, maybe
you'll begin to understand. The episode I'm recommending is the
(35:07):
first one on that page formology or the study of Cheese.
She goes into all kinds of information in trivia about cheese.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Cecilia continues, and speaking of cheese, did anyone ever write
in to clarify the pronunciation of guda? The French say guda,
which is I think the way it's normally pronounced in America,
But in Holland, where the cheese originates, it's pronounced like
how to. Only the h sound is a really guttural sound,
(35:36):
like the in German or Scots so carawra.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
In Dutch, all geese are pronounced that way.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
We lived in Holland for three months, and this includes,
of course Van Gogh's name, which is pronounced like fun cook.
It sounds weird if you haven't heard it before, and
there's not much point in using that pronunciation with other
Americans because you would just have to explain why you
said it that way. Back to the cheese. I used
to buy cheese from a cheesemonger in the little town
(36:06):
where we lived in Holland. We lived in the part
of the Netherlands that's also called Holland. There were lots
of big wheels of gouda on the shelf behind the counter,
and when I asked for gouda, the seller would ask
me how old. As I remember, the choices were three, six,
nine months and older. The older it was stronger the flavor.
I liked the middle range, so would ask for six
or nine months. They would pull out a big wheel
(36:27):
and cut a wedge the size that I asked for.
I could have picked up fresh Dutch gouda in the supermarket,
already cut and wrapped in plastic, but this was more
fun and gave me a chance to practice speaking Dutch. Also,
have you been having cooler weather there. It's been cooler
and rainy here for the past three days. It's strange
for August, but I'm enjoying the break from the heat.
It's still very humid though, Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
It is humid. Yes, yes to the humid.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, and yeah, yeah, we have had a few days
of slightly cooler weather, like we had shockingly cooler weather,
like I had windows open.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
We did. Me and one of my best friends have
a very silly joke that is not funny at all,
but we laugh at it where we just text each
other any storm's coming from Phantom Star Wars every time
a storm comes in. And I have to tell you,
this has been a lot of just random storms lately,
(37:23):
so we've been using that text message quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, like I didn't have to water my outdoor plants
for like a week.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
It was it was wild.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
But but yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah, we'll have to
I know the type of animal crackers that you're talking about,
and we'll have to look into it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
This is the type of investigation that we are prepared for.
I'm so glad you enjoy. Michelle Norris's podcast is amazing.
I'm really really thrilled anytime I can get someone to
listen to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, and she was such a gem to speak with.
Just what a what a lovely, warm human person.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yes, absolutely, and we'll have to check out. I haven't
heard of ologies, but I will check it out.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Oh I have heard of it. I haven't I have
not listened to it. It is on my extremely long list.
But I'm glad that they talk about things like the
study of cheese.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
And also Annie, heck you right in the ear for
giving me all of.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Those I don't know what you're talking about. Those pronunciations
happen to fall on your side of the listener veil
had nothing to do with me. You chooses the word
the listener moco.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Uh in English, that is this particular sound that you're
usually like actively trying not.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
To say into microphones. But I love linguistics.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
I love the several different ways that human beings try
to pronoun Vinston Bengo's name. I know that in like
British English, it's usually van go, which I think is
getting closer to the Dutch version.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Okay, hey, listeners, right now, how do you pronounce van
go from where you are? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
But oh, but that cheese experience, Oh yeah, anytime that
you get to talk to an actual cheese bonger is
such a good day.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oh and I love this. I love that you can
ask for basically how old the cheese is and then
get a wedge the size of your choosing. That's pretty amazing,
a beautiful hazard that beats mine going to the supermarket
any day. Oh well, thank you so much Cecilia for
(39:45):
writing in listeners. If you'd like to write toes, you can.
You can email us at hello at savorpod dot com.
We're also on social media.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
You can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky at
savor pod, and we do hope to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Savor is a production of by heart Rate.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Thanks us always to our super producers
Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening,
and we hope that lots more good things are coming
your way.
Savor News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Lauren Vogelbaum
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