November 9, 2011 • 27 mins
Where did drag originate? Where does it fit within the queer community? Join Cristen and Caroline as they explore the history of drag -- along with the stories of some notable drag queens -- in this episode.
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Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and today we are talking about drag queens and drag
(01:08):
yes where it came from. We're gonna talk about some
famous queens from from way back in the day and
and some more modern people that you've heard of, like Rupole,
and I think that we should go ahead and say
that we don't talk about drag kings quite so much,
but we're really focusing in this episode on drag queen.
Drag Kings could be a whole episode unto themselves. Um,
(01:29):
but men dressing in women's clothing in a theatrical setting
has been going on for quite some time. Female impersonation,
as it's often referred to, goes back um to ancient
Roman literature. You have it in classical Chinese theater, Elizabeth
Elizabethan theater, since women were generally banned from performing on
(01:54):
the stage, so the guys had to perform all of
the parts, right, And we've seen everybody's seen Shakespeare in Love,
which shows not everybody, not me Christ, Christ doesn't seem anything.
I really. I tried to reference this morning. I tried
to reference Karate Kid and it failed. Um. But now,
in uh, what's call it Shakespeare in Love they show
(02:16):
um men on stage as women. But then of course
they also showed Gwyneth Paltrow as a man. So it's
a really good example of everything anyway. Moving on, so
if we look at the etymology of drag queen. According
to the Online Etymology Dictionary, Uh, it originated or at
least drag originated in eighteen seventy theater slang which I'd
(02:40):
like to hear a lot of eighteen seventy theater slang, um,
drag mint women's clothing worn by a man, a man
coming from the idea of the skirts dragging across the stage. Interesting,
which doesn't make sense because you would maybe think that,
you know, men are typically taller than women, So wouldn't
that imply that a woman's dress would be shorter on
(03:03):
a man, that you'd have less drag You problems, you
shouldn't maybe drag less queens, drag less queens, Well that's
just a mouthful. But um no, I mean, I'm assuming
they made the scarts longer for gentlemen, long gentleman's skirts. Um.
And then queen, which couldn't be considered more of a
derogatory term to describe a game man, which has been
(03:24):
around since the nineteenth century and obviously since then, uh.
In terms of drag queens, the term queen has kind
of been what's the word um reclaimed in a more
a more positive sense to to embrace it, right, And
then putting both drag and queen together. It comes into
(03:44):
the universal vernacular by the nineteen fifties, which is which
is pretty early. Actually, yeah, Um, drag queens really really
flour They kind of got their start, yeah, for what
we know them now to be, in the fifties and sixties,
and they really flourished in the eighties and nineties, which
is also the time I mean, if you think about it,
that the gay culture really started to flourish as well,
(04:06):
because we have to mention that in the nineteen fifties
and sixties in particular, drag was definitely going on, but
it was far more underground and even criminalized. UM. For instance,
with the nineteen sixty nine Stonewall riots in San Francisco, UM,
people say that the riots were partially inspired by drag queens,
(04:29):
some of whom were arrested when the police raided the
Stone Wall in UM and then the protests in response
to the Stone Wall police raid was partially led also
by drag queens, right, Yeah, they were just trying to
bring attention to the total lack of civil rights respect
that sort of thing. One individual from the San Francisco
(04:51):
area is Jose Julio Saria, a k a. Empress the
first Jose, a World War Two veteran. He worked at
the Black Cat and Say in Francisco, which had an
international reputation as a meeting place for gays, and as
a result, police tried to close it down nineteen just
because of that. Um Jose was known for his arias.
(05:13):
He he often sang opera at the at the bar,
and you kind of used it, actually use the lyrics
to warn people of potential police entrapment schemes through his songs.
And this is something I did not know about. Um
Jose Julio Saria uh in nine filed as the first
openly gay candidate in the world to run for public office,
(05:35):
and he sought the position of San Francisco City Supervisor,
which would be the same political office that Harvey Milk
would win sixteen years later. Um, he did not sorry,
obviously didn't didn't win that time around, but he came
in ninth out of thirty two, which for the gay
community at the time thought was it was huge. Yeah,
it was very significant. Yeah. Um. Some more developments happened
(06:00):
in San Francisco around this time, a lot more. Um,
there's a lot more of a crackdown by authorities on
gay bars um and after numerous San Francisco bars were closed,
that Tavern Guild of San Francisco was formed and they
put on the city's first large public drag ball, called
the Box Arts Ball. And it was during the third
one of these balls that Jose was named Queen of
(06:21):
the Ball, and he ended up that wasn't enough, you know,
that was not enough. He ended up naming himself Empress
of San Francisco. And this sort of gave rise to
this whole system of of of LGBT rights groups called
the international court system. So Jose developed the by laws
(06:43):
of the Imperial Court of San Francisco. But these courts,
these groups have just spread all over all over the country,
all over Canada, Mexico, the US, and there are more
than sixty five chapters, and they spent a lot of
their time raising money for charity. But that that imperial
system is something that is common within the whole drag hierarchy,
(07:07):
because drag does take on a lot of different forms,
from female impersonation, which is uh separate from just straight
you know, the typical drag that we might think of
it as a little more over the top whereas female
impersonation is something like, uh, you know, someone who wants
to look like Britney Spears and kind of own that
(07:28):
um personality, but a lot of times with the events
that it is within that kind of kind of court system, right,
which I think is kind of interesting. And going back
a little bit in drag history, we have Alan Haynes
who died at the age of ninety in two thousand
and eight, and he I believe was a British um
(07:49):
performer who teamed up with Terry Gardner, who had been
a drag queen in the years leading up to World
War Two, at which point he went into the Navy,
and then he rose to fame in the early fifties
when partnered with Danny LaRue. And what they did was
something called pantomime, which was basically the British form of
(08:09):
early form of theatrical cross dressing and drag. Yeah, they
actually had fourteen number one pantomime performances, so so they're
pretty popular. Alan Haynes went on to open his own
club in London's Soho neighborhood after he and LaRue went
their separate ways, and no list of famous drag queens
(08:30):
would be complete without Dorian Corey, who actually died in UM.
Dorian Corey was featured very heavily in paris As Burning,
a really interesting documentary about drag queens in New York
who created voguing and drag balls. I actually watched a
video of Dorrian performing the voguing dance. The vogue is amazing.
(08:55):
And although I have not seen Shakespeare in Love like
I don't hate whole whole of your horses, because I
have seen paris Is UM, and I do highly recommend it.
It focuses a lot on the African American drag community
in the I believe it takes place in the early eighties,
and all of the different categories UM that they have
(09:19):
in there in there pageants and competitions are just amazing UM,
and the voguing on top of that even more incredible.
So definitely check that out. UM. And during Corey toward
the US in the nineteen sixties, obviously before Paris's Burning
(09:40):
came out as part of a cabaret drag act and
an odd post mortem note here UM. After during Corey died,
friends found the mummified body of a man in a
trunk in her closet. Yeah, they went in to look
for Halloween costumes actually, and they're just going through they
find anything they really wanted to use, but they found
(10:02):
this dust deal drunk the body inside that had been
wrapped in fake leather that had accidentally mummified. I mean, yeah,
do we know the backstory behind it? Well, the person.
It took a while, but the person was finally identity.
There was a bullet wound in the back of his head,
and the person was finally identified as this guy who
had been known as as a criminal like a rapist
(10:25):
and a thief and all that stuff. And but there
was nothing about you know, if Doring Corey really killed
this person, or if how this person ended up in
the closet mummified. Um One one person, one acquaintance of
of Dory and Corey actually said that there was a note.
There was some note that indicated that he killed this
(10:49):
person in defense or something. But Betty, it's all very
it's all very sketchy. Well, if anyone, if anyone has
any insight into the Dorian Corey mummy body in the closet,
let us know. But moving along, we got to talk
about one of the most famous drag queens in Western
pop culture. That would be Divine born Harris Glenn Millstead. Yeah,
(11:13):
she of the very arched eyebrow. They're actually almost kind
of scary looking. Um. Yeah, she was a character actor
and the singer who first became famous through appearances in
John Waters films. And what I thought was interesting, I
didn't realize that Divine actually grew up just down the streets.
I don't know, I didn't imagine. Can you imagine those
two kids playing together? Like, what were there? Like? Its children? Amazing, amazing.
(11:37):
But yeah, you might know if you're if you're not
sure who we're talking about, you might know Divine as
one of the lead characters in hair Spray. She's also
in Pink Flamingo's Female Trouble and poly After and I
think that, uh, Divine ended up dying prematurely from some
kind of heart condition. Yeah, and it was right after
Hairspray came out, which really sent her star for the
(12:00):
roof exactly. That's kind of tragic. Um. And then we
also have Lady Bunny, who is another drag queen that
you probably that you would probably recognize. She is the
co founder, co producer and MC of Wigstock, which is
an annual all day outdoor variety show. Um. And she
also pops up in it like random tabloid magazine doing
(12:24):
uh fashion critiques, which is kind of awesome. Yeah, she
was on RuPaul's Drag You. If you guys remember that,
how could you forget? And speaking of RuPaul's Drag You,
there's RuPaul RuPaul. RuPaul Charles born in San Diego, moved
to Atlanta when he was a teen. Yeah, a delicate
flower moved to Atlanta. Actually went to Northside High School.
(12:46):
I don't know if that that doesn't mean anything to
anyone outside of Atlanta, but that's that's pretty cool. It's
like more of a kind of like a performing arts
high school. Yeah. And in the route really got to
start in in Atlanta, which makes me proud to say
we were voting live from Atlanta right well, not live, No, Well,
I'm glad to us right now, not to you so much. Uh.
(13:07):
And now that we are talking about RuPaul, the song
hit Supermodel, you better work. I'm going to be in
my head for the rest of the day. Yeah, and
I hope and everyone else's head too because it is fantastic. Yeah.
RuPaul has been pretty busy with all all all her
TV shows Drag You and what's the other one, Drag Race. Yeah,
(13:30):
that's the other one. And I do highly recommend if
if you have the time to read RuPaul's biography on
and I think it's RuPaul dot com on on the website.
It's very detailed, it's hysteric. Yeah, his personality totally comes through.
I love it. I really enjoyed reading. And the pictures
are fantastic too. His prom picture from three from North
(13:53):
Set High School fantastic, pretty awesome. It is, It's pretty awesome.
And speaking of Rupe Hall, we wanted to mention Manila Luzon,
who won second place on the third season of RuPaul's
Drag Race. Right um Eric Sang in the blog racial
Issus talks about Manila, saying that he actually he talks
(14:16):
about how she portrays this Pan Asian culture. She's sort
of basically his His whole blog is about is her personality,
the way she portrays Asians? Is it offensive? Is it
okay to do it just because she's Asian, she's from
the Philippines, um or is it still offensive anyway? And
(14:38):
he Eric saying basically says that it's funny, she knows
what she's doing. You know, she's not trying to insult anyone, UM,
but he also says that drag is inherently about the
performance of gender and destroying the idea of masculinity. Yeah,
it's a lot about um, a lot about caricature. And
we started looking into scholarly analysis of drag culture, and
(15:01):
drag culture was in the context of UM gender and sexuality.
We quickly found out that the perception is not quite
so uh so clear cut, especially within the gay community
at least back in back in the day, right, there
was a question of whether camp is an embarrassment to
the gay community and how you know, there are some
(15:23):
parts of the community that really embrace it and think
it's great, and there are other parts who consider an embarrassment,
especially like Christen just said, back back in the day, UM,
the Manachine Society, for instance, disapproved of it. UM. I
didn't think it was helpful to the cause and to
acceptance in general. So this book, Inside Out Lesbian Theories
(15:44):
and Gay Theories, has a chapter on the politics of
gay drag, and it talks about how the drag queen
may be both a misogynist and be the victim of
misogyny just based on whatever perspective you are using. Um.
You know, we we talked about how drag isn't always
accepted in the in the gay community, and a lot
(16:07):
of they talk about in this book, a lot of
the the masculine gay men looking at drag queens as
you know, just not part of the same culture that
they that they are part of. And then they're feminists
like Marylyn Fry who say that drag is a casual
and cynical mockery of women. A lot of writers agree
(16:28):
with her and say that drag is a parody and
a hostile one at the same time. Though I don't see,
I don't necessarily see what the problem is with with partying. Uh.
The kind of femininity that they have on stage that
is very um, over the top. It's a lot of
it's kind of uh, in the words of Andrew ross
(16:48):
de fetishizing all of the makeup and the glitz and
the glamour and the heels and all of in the
just the general bedazzlement that is maybe imposed on women,
and uh, sort of making a mockery of of sort
of the the beauty, the beauty complex. I mean, I
(17:10):
don't think that there's I mean, maybe I'm uh, not
well informed. I don't think, I mean, I don't think
there's a general perception of drags being means spirited, right,
you know exactly Generally it's the exact opposite. A lot
of times if you see drag queens, it's in a parade.
Is that a show? You know, it's raising money, um,
raising awareness things like that, ye, or it's just plain entertainment,
(17:34):
you know, exactly. And so that's why, maybe because our
exposure to drags has only been uh in more of
the entertainment realm, and especially now that drag is in
more of pop culture in general, um, purely for entertainment,
it was surprising to to read this chapter on politics
of gay dragon and this was also in writ in
(17:57):
nineteen one by Caroline Taylor maybe before well obviously before
um drag had come into as much of the mainstream
as it is right now, right, drag was super duper
in the mainstream and still is in Sydney, Australia. Yeah,
this was one one hot spot I did not know about.
(18:18):
I didn't either. I mean, I guess I should have
known because I've seen Priscilla Quin of the Desert which um,
but yeah, Sydney Sydney is sort of a center for
a drag queen culture and it really flourished in the
eighties and nineties. There was an article in an Australian
publication that was talking to Mitsy Macintosh, who made a
(18:40):
living for twenty years it's a full time drag queen,
and Mitzi was basically saying that part of the reason
why drag was so big back in the day was
that this community of people were coming together for support
and mid the aid's outbreak, you know, they were losing friends,
losing family, and so they really came together to support
at each other. And she's saying that basically drag is
(19:03):
on the decline in Sydney, even though it's still like huge,
because maybe the younger generation is not as concerned with AIDS.
So she says, there doesn't seem to be that sense
of socializing and community that there used to be. But nevertheless,
I do think we have to since we're talking about Sydney,
we do have to mention that during the closing ceremonies
(19:24):
of the two thousand Summer Olympics, drag queens dress in
original costumes from Priscilloquy of the Desert. Your movie Caroline.
They've re enacted scenes from the movie, which was the
first open involvement of gays in an Olympic event, and
there were I mean there were protests. There were you know,
um people from the religious community who came out and
(19:45):
said that this doesn't represent Sydney. You know, we're we're
about so much more than just drag queens. And I
mean that's I feel like that's an overreaction because it's
not like the entire closing ceremonies was just a drag show.
I mean, come on, but I think, you know, I
think it's great the they incorporated bits of that movie
into the closing ceremonies. I mean, if it's part of
the city's culture, why not. And it's a good movie whatever.
(20:09):
And I think also that it's um, I think that
it's a positive thing that that drag has come into
more of the mainstream and that it's seen as a
more acceptable thing to do. I think that it is
perfectly acceptable to engage in that kind of gender play.
And we also have to mention, for instance, you know,
like it's not all drag quans just trying to dress
(20:31):
up and look exactly like women's also speaking, which we
have not really mentioned drag kings at all. Um. And
then there's also skagg drag, which is slang for men
who will put on women's clothes but leave on beards
and things like that, kind of playing with like visibly
having the physical markers of being a man, but just
(20:52):
dressed in women's apparel. So kind of like Eddie Iszard
who called himself the executive transvestite. UM. So I think
I don't know, I I UM, I don't know that
I agree necessarily with that. I can understand that critique
of misogyny, but I think, you know, considering that that
was and it's now two thousand eleven, I would hope
(21:16):
at least that we've moved beyond that. Right, and we
were talking about, um, you know, the difference between drag
that's you know, it's doing it as a parody and
then and then UM, people who address just as women,
who aren't necessarily trying to be like the big drag
queen on stage more as impersonation. Right well. UM. Kate Bornstein,
(21:39):
the author of Gender Outlaw on Men, Women and the
Rest of Us, UM, read an article for Out magazine
called the Trouble with Tranny and she talks about Doris Fish,
who San Francisco's preeminent drag queen of the eighties, and
Doris took Kate under her wing um and sort of
made it clear to her that in the nineteen sixties
(22:00):
and seventies Australia, most of the male to female gender
outlaws quote unquote got their start as drag queens. And
this is different from her experience in the eighties, when
male to female transsexuals just wanted to live their lives
as close to being a real woman quote unquote as
possible and consider drag queens beneath them. And so Doris
is taking Kate under her wing and there it's interesting
(22:23):
to see the different the different schools of thought on
drag because the older school, if you wanted to act,
whether you wanted to just perform as a woman or
actually become a woman, you sort of had to come
up through the ranks of drag queens, whereas in the
eighties it started to become more acceptable maybe to just like, no,
I just I mean, I just want to be a woman,
(22:44):
you know, and you didn't have to necessarily perform on
stage as a drag queen. Well, and think about to
the risks, the legal risks of performing in drag or
dressing in women's clothing in the in the fifties and sixties,
like we mentioned earlier, perhaps drag was one of the
only ways to be able to kind of act that
(23:06):
out in public um, even though again you were still
risking a lot, whereas by the time you get to
the eighties, like you said, it was more of something
that that you could just that you could do and slide,
still have to slide someone under the social radar, but
but not have to worry about getting taken off in
a pattiwagon. So where does that leave us today, Caroline, Well,
(23:30):
today we have a lot of women who seemed like
drag queens. A lot of these articles talk about like
Katy Perry and Lady Gaga, who are basically co opting
drag their women who were imitating women imitating women. Yeah,
if that, if you followed, if you followed that, But yeah,
but you know that Mariah Carey and Beyonce they both
(23:51):
have sort of alter egos, Sasha Fears and Mimi. Yeah,
and it's kind of interesting And even I really hadn't
thought about that as we were were so ching. It's
a good point. I wonder why, then, why why there
is some kind of need to co opt. Is it
just because we need to push even more gender boundaries
in pop culture? I don't know. I don't question for
the listeners there, it is let us know what you
(24:15):
think about about drag queens. Anyone out there also who
performs in drag either king, queen, stag whatever. Uh. Curious
to know your insight on this small stuff at how
stuff works dot com is our email address, and I've
got an email here from Emerson and this is in
(24:36):
response to our episode on condoms, and he writes, I
happen to run a gay porn company, and needless to say,
we go through a lot of condoms. Additionally, when we're
stopping to CVS, the condoms are usually the least embarrassing
thing we're buying. As for the people in line, the
looks are just as much out of jealousy as they
(24:56):
are out of negative judgment. I mean, they're buying snickers
and Seltzer and I'm buying condoms, so I'm obviously going
to be the one having a crazy fun night, at
least from their perspective. Anyway, My point is that no
one should be embarrassed to buy condoms. First off, it
means you're looking after your health, which is something to
be proud of. Additionally, you're probably buying them in the
interest of having a good time, which is also something
(25:17):
to be proud of. And lastly, weirdness like me were
there half an hour ago, buying all sorts of nonsense,
desensitizing the entire store. Uh so that's what Emerson had
to say about buying condoms. This is a good Yeah,
next time you're embarrassed. Uh, just imagine, just think about
Emerson and when he took up to the cash register.
(25:42):
This is an email from Angela about our Influential Lesbians podcast.
You brought up Susie Orman and how she includes spirituality
and her financial advice. I'm not a super religious person,
but I do enjoy when she does this. I think
it makes her advice more personable. It can be hard
to wrap our minds around numbers in cold lodge. I agree, Angela.
(26:02):
By adding the effects of money on our emotions intra spirituality,
her advice becomes more relatable. Good point appreciated. I agree.
Excellent points from all of you who right into mom
stuff at how stuff works dot com. And as long
as you can check us out over on Facebook. Let
us know your favorite drag queens, their favorite drag movies.
Watch Paris Is Burning and let me know what you
(26:23):
think on Facebook, and do some vogue ing. Yeah, in vogue,
Oh my god, can we all learn how to vogue
and start doing it? In memory of Dorey and Corey.
Uh and again yeah, and if you have any insight
into the Dorian Corey Mummy, please Facebook Twitter at Mom's
Stuff Podcast let us know immediately, and as always, you
can check out the blog during the week. Stuff Mom
(26:44):
Never Told You at how Stuff Works dot com. This
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From House Towards dot com. This podcast is brought to
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(00:21):
across all types of literature. For stepmom Never Told You listeners,
Audible is offering a free audio book to give you
a chance to try out their service. One audiobook to
consider is bossy Pants by comedian Tina fe Fas. Story
is a great example of a woman who goes after
what she wants and gets it, albeit with pitfalls and
humor along the way. That's bossy Pants, available from Audible.
(00:44):
To try Audible Free today and get a free audiobook
of your choice, go to Audible podcast dot com, slash
mom Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot com slash mom Stuff.
Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and today we are talking about drag queens and drag
(01:08):
yes where it came from. We're gonna talk about some
famous queens from from way back in the day and
and some more modern people that you've heard of, like Rupole,
and I think that we should go ahead and say
that we don't talk about drag kings quite so much,
but we're really focusing in this episode on drag queen.
Drag Kings could be a whole episode unto themselves. Um,
(01:29):
but men dressing in women's clothing in a theatrical setting
has been going on for quite some time. Female impersonation,
as it's often referred to, goes back um to ancient
Roman literature. You have it in classical Chinese theater, Elizabeth
Elizabethan theater, since women were generally banned from performing on
(01:54):
the stage, so the guys had to perform all of
the parts, right, And we've seen everybody's seen Shakespeare in Love,
which shows not everybody, not me Christ, Christ doesn't seem anything.
I really. I tried to reference this morning. I tried
to reference Karate Kid and it failed. Um. But now,
in uh, what's call it Shakespeare in Love they show
(02:16):
um men on stage as women. But then of course
they also showed Gwyneth Paltrow as a man. So it's
a really good example of everything anyway. Moving on, so
if we look at the etymology of drag queen. According
to the Online Etymology Dictionary, Uh, it originated or at
least drag originated in eighteen seventy theater slang which I'd
(02:40):
like to hear a lot of eighteen seventy theater slang, um,
drag mint women's clothing worn by a man, a man
coming from the idea of the skirts dragging across the stage. Interesting,
which doesn't make sense because you would maybe think that,
you know, men are typically taller than women, So wouldn't
that imply that a woman's dress would be shorter on
(03:03):
a man, that you'd have less drag You problems, you
shouldn't maybe drag less queens, drag less queens, Well that's
just a mouthful. But um no, I mean, I'm assuming
they made the scarts longer for gentlemen, long gentleman's skirts. Um.
And then queen, which couldn't be considered more of a
derogatory term to describe a game man, which has been
(03:24):
around since the nineteenth century and obviously since then, uh.
In terms of drag queens, the term queen has kind
of been what's the word um reclaimed in a more
a more positive sense to to embrace it, right, And
then putting both drag and queen together. It comes into
(03:44):
the universal vernacular by the nineteen fifties, which is which
is pretty early. Actually, yeah, Um, drag queens really really
flour They kind of got their start, yeah, for what
we know them now to be, in the fifties and sixties,
and they really flourished in the eighties and nineties, which
is also the time I mean, if you think about it,
that the gay culture really started to flourish as well,
(04:06):
because we have to mention that in the nineteen fifties
and sixties in particular, drag was definitely going on, but
it was far more underground and even criminalized. UM. For instance,
with the nineteen sixty nine Stonewall riots in San Francisco, UM,
people say that the riots were partially inspired by drag queens,
(04:29):
some of whom were arrested when the police raided the
Stone Wall in UM and then the protests in response
to the Stone Wall police raid was partially led also
by drag queens, right, Yeah, they were just trying to
bring attention to the total lack of civil rights respect
that sort of thing. One individual from the San Francisco
(04:51):
area is Jose Julio Saria, a k a. Empress the
first Jose, a World War Two veteran. He worked at
the Black Cat and Say in Francisco, which had an
international reputation as a meeting place for gays, and as
a result, police tried to close it down nineteen just
because of that. Um Jose was known for his arias.
(05:13):
He he often sang opera at the at the bar,
and you kind of used it, actually use the lyrics
to warn people of potential police entrapment schemes through his songs.
And this is something I did not know about. Um
Jose Julio Saria uh in nine filed as the first
openly gay candidate in the world to run for public office,
(05:35):
and he sought the position of San Francisco City Supervisor,
which would be the same political office that Harvey Milk
would win sixteen years later. Um, he did not sorry,
obviously didn't didn't win that time around, but he came
in ninth out of thirty two, which for the gay
community at the time thought was it was huge. Yeah,
it was very significant. Yeah. Um. Some more developments happened
(06:00):
in San Francisco around this time, a lot more. Um,
there's a lot more of a crackdown by authorities on
gay bars um and after numerous San Francisco bars were closed,
that Tavern Guild of San Francisco was formed and they
put on the city's first large public drag ball, called
the Box Arts Ball. And it was during the third
one of these balls that Jose was named Queen of
(06:21):
the Ball, and he ended up that wasn't enough, you know,
that was not enough. He ended up naming himself Empress
of San Francisco. And this sort of gave rise to
this whole system of of of LGBT rights groups called
the international court system. So Jose developed the by laws
(06:43):
of the Imperial Court of San Francisco. But these courts,
these groups have just spread all over all over the country,
all over Canada, Mexico, the US, and there are more
than sixty five chapters, and they spent a lot of
their time raising money for charity. But that that imperial
system is something that is common within the whole drag hierarchy,
(07:07):
because drag does take on a lot of different forms,
from female impersonation, which is uh separate from just straight
you know, the typical drag that we might think of
it as a little more over the top whereas female
impersonation is something like, uh, you know, someone who wants
to look like Britney Spears and kind of own that
(07:28):
um personality, but a lot of times with the events
that it is within that kind of kind of court system, right,
which I think is kind of interesting. And going back
a little bit in drag history, we have Alan Haynes
who died at the age of ninety in two thousand
and eight, and he I believe was a British um
(07:49):
performer who teamed up with Terry Gardner, who had been
a drag queen in the years leading up to World
War Two, at which point he went into the Navy,
and then he rose to fame in the early fifties
when partnered with Danny LaRue. And what they did was
something called pantomime, which was basically the British form of
(08:09):
early form of theatrical cross dressing and drag. Yeah, they
actually had fourteen number one pantomime performances, so so they're
pretty popular. Alan Haynes went on to open his own
club in London's Soho neighborhood after he and LaRue went
their separate ways, and no list of famous drag queens
(08:30):
would be complete without Dorian Corey, who actually died in UM.
Dorian Corey was featured very heavily in paris As Burning,
a really interesting documentary about drag queens in New York
who created voguing and drag balls. I actually watched a
video of Dorrian performing the voguing dance. The vogue is amazing.
(08:55):
And although I have not seen Shakespeare in Love like
I don't hate whole whole of your horses, because I
have seen paris Is UM, and I do highly recommend it.
It focuses a lot on the African American drag community
in the I believe it takes place in the early eighties,
and all of the different categories UM that they have
(09:19):
in there in there pageants and competitions are just amazing UM,
and the voguing on top of that even more incredible.
So definitely check that out. UM. And during Corey toward
the US in the nineteen sixties, obviously before Paris's Burning
(09:40):
came out as part of a cabaret drag act and
an odd post mortem note here UM. After during Corey died,
friends found the mummified body of a man in a
trunk in her closet. Yeah, they went in to look
for Halloween costumes actually, and they're just going through they
find anything they really wanted to use, but they found
(10:02):
this dust deal drunk the body inside that had been
wrapped in fake leather that had accidentally mummified. I mean, yeah,
do we know the backstory behind it? Well, the person.
It took a while, but the person was finally identity.
There was a bullet wound in the back of his head,
and the person was finally identified as this guy who
had been known as as a criminal like a rapist
(10:25):
and a thief and all that stuff. And but there
was nothing about you know, if Doring Corey really killed
this person, or if how this person ended up in
the closet mummified. Um One one person, one acquaintance of
of Dory and Corey actually said that there was a note.
There was some note that indicated that he killed this
(10:49):
person in defense or something. But Betty, it's all very
it's all very sketchy. Well, if anyone, if anyone has
any insight into the Dorian Corey mummy body in the closet,
let us know. But moving along, we got to talk
about one of the most famous drag queens in Western
pop culture. That would be Divine born Harris Glenn Millstead. Yeah,
(11:13):
she of the very arched eyebrow. They're actually almost kind
of scary looking. Um. Yeah, she was a character actor
and the singer who first became famous through appearances in
John Waters films. And what I thought was interesting, I
didn't realize that Divine actually grew up just down the streets.
I don't know, I didn't imagine. Can you imagine those
two kids playing together? Like, what were there? Like? Its children? Amazing, amazing.
(11:37):
But yeah, you might know if you're if you're not
sure who we're talking about, you might know Divine as
one of the lead characters in hair Spray. She's also
in Pink Flamingo's Female Trouble and poly After and I
think that, uh, Divine ended up dying prematurely from some
kind of heart condition. Yeah, and it was right after
Hairspray came out, which really sent her star for the
(12:00):
roof exactly. That's kind of tragic. Um. And then we
also have Lady Bunny, who is another drag queen that
you probably that you would probably recognize. She is the
co founder, co producer and MC of Wigstock, which is
an annual all day outdoor variety show. Um. And she
also pops up in it like random tabloid magazine doing
(12:24):
uh fashion critiques, which is kind of awesome. Yeah, she
was on RuPaul's Drag You. If you guys remember that,
how could you forget? And speaking of RuPaul's Drag You,
there's RuPaul RuPaul. RuPaul Charles born in San Diego, moved
to Atlanta when he was a teen. Yeah, a delicate
flower moved to Atlanta. Actually went to Northside High School.
(12:46):
I don't know if that that doesn't mean anything to
anyone outside of Atlanta, but that's that's pretty cool. It's
like more of a kind of like a performing arts
high school. Yeah. And in the route really got to
start in in Atlanta, which makes me proud to say
we were voting live from Atlanta right well, not live, No, Well,
I'm glad to us right now, not to you so much. Uh.
(13:07):
And now that we are talking about RuPaul, the song
hit Supermodel, you better work. I'm going to be in
my head for the rest of the day. Yeah, and
I hope and everyone else's head too because it is fantastic. Yeah.
RuPaul has been pretty busy with all all all her
TV shows Drag You and what's the other one, Drag Race. Yeah,
(13:30):
that's the other one. And I do highly recommend if
if you have the time to read RuPaul's biography on
and I think it's RuPaul dot com on on the website.
It's very detailed, it's hysteric. Yeah, his personality totally comes through.
I love it. I really enjoyed reading. And the pictures
are fantastic too. His prom picture from three from North
(13:53):
Set High School fantastic, pretty awesome. It is, It's pretty awesome.
And speaking of Rupe Hall, we wanted to mention Manila Luzon,
who won second place on the third season of RuPaul's
Drag Race. Right um Eric Sang in the blog racial
Issus talks about Manila, saying that he actually he talks
(14:16):
about how she portrays this Pan Asian culture. She's sort
of basically his His whole blog is about is her personality,
the way she portrays Asians? Is it offensive? Is it
okay to do it just because she's Asian, she's from
the Philippines, um or is it still offensive anyway? And
(14:38):
he Eric saying basically says that it's funny, she knows
what she's doing. You know, she's not trying to insult anyone, UM,
but he also says that drag is inherently about the
performance of gender and destroying the idea of masculinity. Yeah,
it's a lot about um, a lot about caricature. And
we started looking into scholarly analysis of drag culture, and
(15:01):
drag culture was in the context of UM gender and sexuality.
We quickly found out that the perception is not quite
so uh so clear cut, especially within the gay community
at least back in back in the day, right, there
was a question of whether camp is an embarrassment to
the gay community and how you know, there are some
(15:23):
parts of the community that really embrace it and think
it's great, and there are other parts who consider an embarrassment,
especially like Christen just said, back back in the day, UM,
the Manachine Society, for instance, disapproved of it. UM. I
didn't think it was helpful to the cause and to
acceptance in general. So this book, Inside Out Lesbian Theories
(15:44):
and Gay Theories, has a chapter on the politics of
gay drag, and it talks about how the drag queen
may be both a misogynist and be the victim of
misogyny just based on whatever perspective you are using. Um.
You know, we we talked about how drag isn't always
accepted in the in the gay community, and a lot
(16:07):
of they talk about in this book, a lot of
the the masculine gay men looking at drag queens as
you know, just not part of the same culture that
they that they are part of. And then they're feminists
like Marylyn Fry who say that drag is a casual
and cynical mockery of women. A lot of writers agree
(16:28):
with her and say that drag is a parody and
a hostile one at the same time. Though I don't see,
I don't necessarily see what the problem is with with partying. Uh.
The kind of femininity that they have on stage that
is very um, over the top. It's a lot of
it's kind of uh, in the words of Andrew ross
(16:48):
de fetishizing all of the makeup and the glitz and
the glamour and the heels and all of in the
just the general bedazzlement that is maybe imposed on women,
and uh, sort of making a mockery of of sort
of the the beauty, the beauty complex. I mean, I
(17:10):
don't think that there's I mean, maybe I'm uh, not
well informed. I don't think, I mean, I don't think
there's a general perception of drags being means spirited, right,
you know exactly Generally it's the exact opposite. A lot
of times if you see drag queens, it's in a parade.
Is that a show? You know, it's raising money, um,
raising awareness things like that, ye, or it's just plain entertainment,
(17:34):
you know, exactly. And so that's why, maybe because our
exposure to drags has only been uh in more of
the entertainment realm, and especially now that drag is in
more of pop culture in general, um, purely for entertainment,
it was surprising to to read this chapter on politics
of gay dragon and this was also in writ in
(17:57):
nineteen one by Caroline Taylor maybe before well obviously before
um drag had come into as much of the mainstream
as it is right now, right, drag was super duper
in the mainstream and still is in Sydney, Australia. Yeah,
this was one one hot spot I did not know about.
(18:18):
I didn't either. I mean, I guess I should have
known because I've seen Priscilla Quin of the Desert which um,
but yeah, Sydney Sydney is sort of a center for
a drag queen culture and it really flourished in the
eighties and nineties. There was an article in an Australian
publication that was talking to Mitsy Macintosh, who made a
(18:40):
living for twenty years it's a full time drag queen,
and Mitzi was basically saying that part of the reason
why drag was so big back in the day was
that this community of people were coming together for support
and mid the aid's outbreak, you know, they were losing friends,
losing family, and so they really came together to support
at each other. And she's saying that basically drag is
(19:03):
on the decline in Sydney, even though it's still like huge,
because maybe the younger generation is not as concerned with AIDS.
So she says, there doesn't seem to be that sense
of socializing and community that there used to be. But nevertheless,
I do think we have to since we're talking about Sydney,
we do have to mention that during the closing ceremonies
(19:24):
of the two thousand Summer Olympics, drag queens dress in
original costumes from Priscilloquy of the Desert. Your movie Caroline.
They've re enacted scenes from the movie, which was the
first open involvement of gays in an Olympic event, and
there were I mean there were protests. There were you know,
um people from the religious community who came out and
(19:45):
said that this doesn't represent Sydney. You know, we're we're
about so much more than just drag queens. And I
mean that's I feel like that's an overreaction because it's
not like the entire closing ceremonies was just a drag show.
I mean, come on, but I think, you know, I
think it's great the they incorporated bits of that movie
into the closing ceremonies. I mean, if it's part of
the city's culture, why not. And it's a good movie whatever.
(20:09):
And I think also that it's um, I think that
it's a positive thing that that drag has come into
more of the mainstream and that it's seen as a
more acceptable thing to do. I think that it is
perfectly acceptable to engage in that kind of gender play.
And we also have to mention, for instance, you know,
like it's not all drag quans just trying to dress
(20:31):
up and look exactly like women's also speaking, which we
have not really mentioned drag kings at all. Um. And
then there's also skagg drag, which is slang for men
who will put on women's clothes but leave on beards
and things like that, kind of playing with like visibly
having the physical markers of being a man, but just
(20:52):
dressed in women's apparel. So kind of like Eddie Iszard
who called himself the executive transvestite. UM. So I think
I don't know, I I UM, I don't know that
I agree necessarily with that. I can understand that critique
of misogyny, but I think, you know, considering that that
was and it's now two thousand eleven, I would hope
(21:16):
at least that we've moved beyond that. Right, and we
were talking about, um, you know, the difference between drag
that's you know, it's doing it as a parody and
then and then UM, people who address just as women,
who aren't necessarily trying to be like the big drag
queen on stage more as impersonation. Right well. UM. Kate Bornstein,
(21:39):
the author of Gender Outlaw on Men, Women and the
Rest of Us, UM, read an article for Out magazine
called the Trouble with Tranny and she talks about Doris Fish,
who San Francisco's preeminent drag queen of the eighties, and
Doris took Kate under her wing um and sort of
made it clear to her that in the nineteen sixties
(22:00):
and seventies Australia, most of the male to female gender
outlaws quote unquote got their start as drag queens. And
this is different from her experience in the eighties, when
male to female transsexuals just wanted to live their lives
as close to being a real woman quote unquote as
possible and consider drag queens beneath them. And so Doris
is taking Kate under her wing and there it's interesting
(22:23):
to see the different the different schools of thought on
drag because the older school, if you wanted to act,
whether you wanted to just perform as a woman or
actually become a woman, you sort of had to come
up through the ranks of drag queens, whereas in the
eighties it started to become more acceptable maybe to just like, no,
I just I mean, I just want to be a woman,
(22:44):
you know, and you didn't have to necessarily perform on
stage as a drag queen. Well, and think about to
the risks, the legal risks of performing in drag or
dressing in women's clothing in the in the fifties and sixties,
like we mentioned earlier, perhaps drag was one of the
only ways to be able to kind of act that
(23:06):
out in public um, even though again you were still
risking a lot, whereas by the time you get to
the eighties, like you said, it was more of something
that that you could just that you could do and slide,
still have to slide someone under the social radar, but
but not have to worry about getting taken off in
a pattiwagon. So where does that leave us today, Caroline, Well,
(23:30):
today we have a lot of women who seemed like
drag queens. A lot of these articles talk about like
Katy Perry and Lady Gaga, who are basically co opting
drag their women who were imitating women imitating women. Yeah,
if that, if you followed, if you followed that, But yeah,
but you know that Mariah Carey and Beyonce they both
(23:51):
have sort of alter egos, Sasha Fears and Mimi. Yeah,
and it's kind of interesting And even I really hadn't
thought about that as we were were so ching. It's
a good point. I wonder why, then, why why there
is some kind of need to co opt. Is it
just because we need to push even more gender boundaries
in pop culture? I don't know. I don't question for
the listeners there, it is let us know what you
(24:15):
think about about drag queens. Anyone out there also who
performs in drag either king, queen, stag whatever. Uh. Curious
to know your insight on this small stuff at how
stuff works dot com is our email address, and I've
got an email here from Emerson and this is in
(24:36):
response to our episode on condoms, and he writes, I
happen to run a gay porn company, and needless to say,
we go through a lot of condoms. Additionally, when we're
stopping to CVS, the condoms are usually the least embarrassing
thing we're buying. As for the people in line, the
looks are just as much out of jealousy as they
(24:56):
are out of negative judgment. I mean, they're buying snickers
and Seltzer and I'm buying condoms, so I'm obviously going
to be the one having a crazy fun night, at
least from their perspective. Anyway, My point is that no
one should be embarrassed to buy condoms. First off, it
means you're looking after your health, which is something to
be proud of. Additionally, you're probably buying them in the
interest of having a good time, which is also something
(25:17):
to be proud of. And lastly, weirdness like me were
there half an hour ago, buying all sorts of nonsense,
desensitizing the entire store. Uh so that's what Emerson had
to say about buying condoms. This is a good Yeah,
next time you're embarrassed. Uh, just imagine, just think about
Emerson and when he took up to the cash register.
(25:42):
This is an email from Angela about our Influential Lesbians podcast.
You brought up Susie Orman and how she includes spirituality
and her financial advice. I'm not a super religious person,
but I do enjoy when she does this. I think
it makes her advice more personable. It can be hard
to wrap our minds around numbers in cold lodge. I agree, Angela.
(26:02):
By adding the effects of money on our emotions intra spirituality,
her advice becomes more relatable. Good point appreciated. I agree.
Excellent points from all of you who right into mom
stuff at how stuff works dot com. And as long
as you can check us out over on Facebook. Let
us know your favorite drag queens, their favorite drag movies.
Watch Paris Is Burning and let me know what you
(26:23):
think on Facebook, and do some vogue ing. Yeah, in vogue,
Oh my god, can we all learn how to vogue
and start doing it? In memory of Dorey and Corey.
Uh and again yeah, and if you have any insight
into the Dorian Corey Mummy, please Facebook Twitter at Mom's
Stuff Podcast let us know immediately, and as always, you
can check out the blog during the week. Stuff Mom
(26:44):
Never Told You at how Stuff Works dot com. This
podcast is brought to you by Audible dot com, the
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