A Look at Modern Friendship: Part 1

What does friendship look like for adults these days? How do adults make (and keep) close relationships, and why do people drift apart? Anney and Samantha chat about research and personal experiences.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is any and Samantha, I want for stuff
I never told you Protection of my Heart Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome to another episode where Anie and I have collaborated.
So it's gonna be fun and we're talking about friendships
because so what else could be more fun than that?
Except yes, it is us and it is me who
likes to think things a little pessimistically. But that's okay,
you guys know already. Ray.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Also, just be clear, we do collaborate often, but the
way that our outlines works and we usually have one
person take the lead.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, when I say collaborate on this one, we did
separate research and then just lapped them together and then
we're going to talk about it together. Yeah, as opposed
to like one thought process, Like we both have different
thoughts and different angles that we came in from. Yeah,
this is and it's a lot. It's a lot. So
you know what, as we start we I think we've

(01:11):
talked a little bit about our meet cute, as I've
taught you this word a bit, but I think we
should start the show off with how we became such
a dynamic duo because we've talked a little about here
and there and then like there are pictures that mysteriously
popped out later that we're like, oh, we met before.

(01:31):
Apparently your boyfriend that I have never met was in
the picture somewhere or was around at that point in time.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Right, uh huh oh yeah he was my ex boyfriend.
I'm just kidding. Yeah, there's a picture of like professional
picture was taken at an event where you were working
behind the bar and it was like a signs of
Beer event and I was there with my then boyfriend.

(02:00):
There's a picture of you and I.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Am exchanging drinks.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, And later I was like, oh my god, but.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
It was actually Caroline previous host who had seen this picture,
was like, wait is this so and so? Is this
Annie and Samantha and I was like wait wait And
this was after we I think we had started the
show right when we discovered a picture not the actual picture.
So yeah, a lot of this is in part thanks

(02:30):
to Caroline, who she and I were close and met
through other friends during height girl times of us talking
about a dude.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yes, yes, so Caroline I became friends and I figured
out that she knew Kristen, who I had known through
another great friend of mine from Athens. Who's writing. I've
been in. I know their entire family, so it was
such a like overlap. But me and you we met
through Caroline specifically. The introduction to you was you and

(03:04):
old coworker and friend Sarah Uh coming to Carolines she
finished her book party. Yeah, essentially, when she had just
recently left stuff on the member told you and you
were not quite the host yet, but you were working
with how stuff works, and we all met. But because

(03:25):
I was overwhelmed, I was like, there's too many people here.
I guess to go. I have a dog to take
care of. Yeah, and that's how you like, That's how
you were introduced to me, right, because I barely remember
because you walked in. I do remember you walking in
because we were on the back porch, yes, and I
was trying to make my escape. And I had already
been there because I am that person who comes early

(03:47):
and leaves early. And you know what, Caroline is the
one that taught me that one.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Hey, if it works for you, it works for your time.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
And y'all had come because y'all where y'all been?

Speaker 1 (04:00):
You and Sarah, Listen, this is completely true. I was
walking back from our office at the time, which is
not a far walk from where I live. Our mutual
friend Sarah pulled up next to me in a car
and said get in, and I did, and that's how
I ended up there.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
No idea they came in. The party was already happening,
and it got loud, and I was like, I gotta
go peace out. I gotta go see my dog, which
is what you remember from me, Is that correct? And then,
because I had met Sarah through Carolina as well, I

(04:43):
was bartending with a beer company here, a local beer
brewery here in Atlanta, and y'all, I just popped up
and we kind of reminisced about the fact that we
were all there on Father's Day, lamenting together and all
of the Bad Father tropes and or deaths or things,

(05:03):
a lot of tragedy. We really really bonded over trauma
and tragedy. And we y'all did the hookup where y'all
went and did some touring and I'm like, ah, and
he's cool, okay, cool, Why why don't you come hung
out with me? And then I had an infamous cheese
and wine party because I loved having those. This is
all pre pandemic. I think we met in twenty eighteen.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, I think it was twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think you and my partner came around the same time. Yeah, yeah,
so y'all are like okay, And then at that infamous party,
is no, because we had already hung out before when
it was announced that you were going to be on
the show with Bridget.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yes, oh that's right, we did.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
We hung out. Yeah, we hung out a victory. I'm
giving you all the lowdown. We were hung out at
our local restaurant here. Bridget was here in town, so
I got to meet her. Bridget kind of forgot that
and we all hung out and it was all a
beautiful moment. And then you and I kept up with
the friendship for a while. I can't remember all the
in betweens, but I was like, yeah, I like this girl.

(06:12):
We're gonna hang We're gonna be friends. We went to
a few festivals here and there.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
We did karaoke time.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
We did karaoke. Uh. I a lot of karaoke since then,
but we did do karaoke in one of the infamous
bars here away a little outside of Atlanta. You'd never been.
Was that your first time? Really?

Speaker 1 (06:33):
That was my first time?

Speaker 2 (06:34):
I love it. I think a friend also a friend
of mine, Dominique was her first time too, and she
loved it. I was like, this is amazing, Let's do
this. This is when I actually did things, y'all. I stayed
out past twelve and then as our friendship grew and
that infamous cheese party night came through, you and I
sat down and talked about the future of the show.

(06:56):
Me feeling really really restless with the whole me Too movement,
and people were really upset already as it goes about
the word trigger warning, and that opened up into such
a conversation that was maybe your therapist a little bit
as well. I feel like you need more therapy, more

(07:17):
than I can offer. Also, let's do a show. I
will say not to say I tricked you, but this
wasn't part to be like I need to get this
girl in therapy.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
And you did you listen to our miniseries we did
on Trauma.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
We did mainly because I'm like, girl, you've been through
some things and you're not acknowledging how significant these things are.
We need to take a moment.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
The cheese and wine brings it out of me sometimes well.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
And I was like, because this is also a part
of my problem. And we're going to talk about this
a little bit as we talk about the layers of
friendship and types of friendships there are and women in
friendship in general. But like, I cannot do shallow conversations
that I am going to hone in, ask you a question,

(08:09):
find the things that like obviously are things that are
like pretty deep to you, and then we're gonna talk
about it.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, I can verify that one thousand percent.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
And then I feel like there are moments and I'm
like I need to back off. So for me to
back off of me's like we can't talk at all
because my mind cannot let that go. And if I
am having that conversation with you, if I'm having an
in depth conversation, that means I'm investing in you, and
that that means that there's something in this relationship that

(08:41):
makes me think that we need to be friends.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
I've always appreciated that about you. I don't think that's
like not great, not no, No. I think that, at
least in my experience that I include myself in this.
I sometimes shy away from tougher topics that because I'm like,
I don't know if I can say the right thing
or I don't know if you want to talk about this,

(09:06):
or but I appreciate that you're a genuinely curious person
if it's somebody that you do want to invest in,
or you're you're interested in learning more about.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
I say something that I can't let go of. It's
because also as a thinker on this level of like,
if you give me something and then it doesn't make
complete sense, I have to unravel it. We're gonna have
to go through this because I'm like, wait, no, wait,
what type of And I can't lingering And that's gonna
keep me up at night.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
That's so, Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
I'm gonna need to know, and I'm gonna come back
later and ask you.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, she does follow ups, listeners.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
I to follow ups. But with all of that, this
is the beginning. This is the beginning of our friendship.
And you being open and accepting of that really developed
into this level learning this. We've talked about this many times.
I'm not a podcaster, I'm not a writer. I am
not an editor. This is not what I was trained
to be. What I'm trained to be is the thinker

(10:08):
is a questioner is a person who comes and asks
the deep questions and we work through things and we
don't necessarily find a solution, but we find a moment
of like stability. Like that's what I like to do.
So when I don't get that, I get a little anxious.
But with that, I also really hone in on like
injustices and I want to talk about it to try

(10:29):
to unravel at least the reasons and if there's not reasons,
at least what we can do to protect ourselves to
a certain extent. So this is who I am because
you've allowed me to do that. This has felt like
an actual like career instead of just a job. So
thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I think also like we do so well in
like what're pretty opposites in so.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Many ways in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, but at the same have we let each other
be those opposites that helps us come together, like it
fulfills the entire picture.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, yeah, and being supportive and open to okay you
want to check about that or okay, well yeah, what
should we do next? I think that is really important
and it's good to have different viewpoints. I think, just
even outside of a job or our career with your
friend group.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Mm hmmm. I think we traveled really well with that.
We've done many a travels.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yes, we have, and we've done well. We've been You're
very You're very clear about like I need my rest,
I'm leaving and I'll very like have fun.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm gonna do my own thing like this is. That's
the glory of it all, Like we don't need to
be attached. But also I'm gonna support this, and we're
gonna go to this these things you want to see,
all the things of lest of us. I'm gonna see
four of those things, do the rest, and I will
happily And I'm like, yes, okay, but yeah, so with that,
that is our friendship in a summary. Yeah, there's so

(12:06):
much more obviously, and the way we get to teach
each other and the way we get to grow with
each other, and just talking about like what this podcast
has become and how we made it ours and some
people love it, some people hate it. We're okay with that.
One of the things that we would do with this
podcast is talk on a broader subject because we find
it interesting and when we look at it from an
intersectional ideal, which is so important and I hope doesn't

(12:30):
go away. I feel like even with like the atmosphere
that is today, like we talked about some of the
things that we are fearful of, like this is our careers,
this is if something were to happen, if someone were
to get mad at us, if someone thinks that, you know,
our opinions mean that it's a violation of something somehow
that it could go away if the right group or

(12:54):
you know, the wrong group. I feel like they have
a new agenda. But with that, we find that a
privilege to be able to have a conversation about this
and talk about things like women in friendship, and that's
kind of what we're doing. And you know, as a reminder,
I feel like we haven't said this in a while
when we say women, woman, all women, Yes, okay, So

(13:16):
don't think this is all about just binary gender. We're
not about that life. We are talking about intersectionalism and
being on a spectrum in many ways, and gender is
one of those things. So when we say women, were
saying all women, So go go with that. How you
watch When we were researching one of the things, I

(13:47):
was like, let's just get a basics about friendship. So
what are we talking about when we talk about friendships,
and one of the first things that popped up is
from our friends. Literally that one of the first people
who were made Sminty Sminty Molly Edmonds had written this
article with another co author for How Stuff Works about friendships,

(14:07):
and I was like, well, of course we're gonna have
to use this because it's already there for us. And
they talk of the complexity of friendships in general. So
as simple as that word may be, because I feel
like people just automatically assume it's a relationship platonic, non blown,
you know, romantic, even it is complex about how to
maintain and even keep them and why they're important for everyone.

(14:31):
So in their article they interview psychologists doctor Susanne Diggs White,
who told them this. She says, true friendships are hallmarked
by each member's desire to engage with the other. It's
about mutual interest in one another's experience and thoughts, as
well as a sense of belongingness and connection. Friendships require
reciprocity of admiration, respect, trust, and emotional and instrumental support.

(14:56):
I think that's such a great definition because we don't
really get into time the conversation about toxic friendships. Yeah,
because what we would say toxic friendships would be the
opposite of all of that.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, I would like to come back and do a
deeper dive into that though, because I was thinking about that.
This research actually brought out a lot for me, and
I was telling Samantha, I've reached out to friends that
I haven't reached out to in a while because of it.
But one of the things I would love to come
back and do is the dynamics of a friendship, the
kind of power dynamics.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
We've done an episode about breaking up with friends, right,
we have done that.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
I'm kind of I just want to talk about like,
because I feel like even in a pretty solid friend group,
there are sometimes still the most sort of like.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Hierarchies.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, main girl level, not necessarily mean girl, but like
I don't.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Know, well, I mean, like with I don't Regina George's
character being the leader of her friend group, yeah type
of thing. Yeah, I feel like there's a connection sometimes
where they're the central point.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah. Yeah, And just like we are going to talk
about this, I haven't known about this in that line,
but kind of that like idea because a lot of
times the friendship is they change as you go through life,
and it can feel especially for someone like me, who
I'm not gonna have kids, so I'm not gonna get married,
I'm not going through a lot of those like touchstones.

(16:25):
It can kind of feel like in some instances, I
don't have a lot of the power in that case,
but in other instances, I feel like I kind of
do so right, it's just interesting. It's just something I've
been thinking about.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
So I would think you are the leader and the
powerful one when it comes to when we go to
Dragon Con or when we go to events like Bess,
if I go to Disney World with you, you were
in charge. You are the woman in charge. But like
setting up dates with people who are getting married or
have children, they are the ones that have to be like, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Free these times.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
But yeah, I see what you're saying. I see what
I see what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, it seems interesting, but.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
We will come back and we do address a little bit,
but not completely. You're right, and yeah, and back to
that article. They go even deeper, classifying specific types of friendships,
so not necessarily diameodamics, but types including acquaintances, friends, close friends,
and best friends. So they kind of have this like
pyramid and this is where it goes from the bottom up.

(17:21):
And though I would have thought close friends and best
friends were pretty much the same, but the difference lies
in the depth of best friend marker type of thing
where best friends don't even need to speak to each
other and can pick up where they left off. Like
I've all maybe this is my childhood ideal, but like
the best friend is like you talked to them every

(17:42):
day and you must call on the phone in any
of the events. But you know that's not necessarily true.
And I will say I feel like that's the only
type of friendships I have because I am an introvert.
So you might not hear from me for weeks or
two weeks or four weeks or six months, but when

(18:02):
we come back, we talk as we've never stopped talking.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, I have a lot of friends like that, and
I think that's a It makes sense because people have
their own lives, they're doing their own things. You're doing
your own thing, and it's really nice when you get
to see each other and it just feels like you're
picking up right back where you're left off.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right and it is lovely and then for women there
seems to be very specifics that honestly makes sense to me,
Like women look for emotional bond and support, so a
little bit different on how what they classify what they
need in a relationship and a friendship, so they need
that death that level of relationships. For me, I do
that too, like if I need it's rare that I'm

(18:42):
going to ever tell you I need something, But if
I do, that means if you let me down, it's
hard to come back from that for me, Like you
might not ruin it, and I'll always be there for you,
but in the back of my head, I'll know, ah, yeah,
they didn't pick up on them. And then like that
equal reciprocity, the give and take that is similar to yours.

(19:04):
That took me a long time to learn and I
didn't realize how important that was until after college.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah. Well, and part of that too is like I
know we've talked about this and it's different between some
of my other friends, but there can be this feeling
of you did this for me, x y Z, I
have to do the same for you, which is not
always true, Like sometimes that it's the x y Z

(19:31):
same for you, doesn't have to be the exact same thing.
It can be something that means more to them than like, say,
if I have a lot of friends who love to
give gifts but don't necessarily love getting them, but I
can find a way to, like, I know what they like,
and I can make something that is reciprocal but not
the exact same right, right, But it's kind of that

(19:51):
Karen attention that matters. It's like, I'm giving you the
same time and Karen attention right that you give me.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Well, I think I think one of the big things,
like in college, I would be there. I would spend
money on people, I would go out for people. If
they told me they needed this, I'd be there for people.
Like all of these things help you move, help you
do these things. And then I realized they didn't do
the same for me. They obviously don't hold me in
the same regard. Hmmmmmm. And it's like at this point

(20:21):
I want the friends that I know has my back
as much as I have theirs. And life's too short.
We don't all have to be friends, yes, and we
can let this go, and I will let that go.
I've gotten really good at letting go. As of the
last ten years, I'm like, yeah, I'm good, no, thank you.
Maybe that's a good or bad thing, I don't know.

(20:43):
Also a mutual self disclosure or the more that you
share and you discover about each other, you trust each
other more, you know, not saying it's completely about gossip,
because not gossip is not wonderful all the time, but
like there's this level of trust of like, oh you
think that's okay, kind of like the inside joke and
understanding your sense of humor, like, oh, I can trust

(21:05):
you in this. Being racist is not the thing that
I'm not talking about that if you're racist and you're
being racist with your racist friends, you know that you're
not gonna be my friend. But this level of like
understanding and valuing each other or getting advice from each other,
being able to like really know that you can trust
one another. And again, like you give just as much
as I give. I'm not giving you all my secrets
and you're not giving m all right, you're telling me things,

(21:27):
tell me about your life. Maybe that's what maybe that's
what it is about me, and they get to know you,
like I need to know, I need to know who
you are. Moving back and this is something author Danielle
Bayard Jackson's base on in her book as well as
CNN when it comes to like female friends in general,
so she says this people are most so women need

(21:49):
to know that there is trust and support and long
lasting friendships and something that happens naturally, so inable to
like actually be able to have a true and long
lasting relationship. It's not forcing you to divult secrets. This
is not the Masons. We're not making you write down
yere secrets and promises. Which, by the way, I just
went down a rabbit hole about Masons. I wondered if

(22:11):
they were part of the white nationally this in terms
of our Christians don't like Mason's side note, sorry, but like,
but the fact that we it does happen naturally. It
comes in a conversation, whether it's like you bonding over
the fact that your dad's dead. I'm so sorry, that's
not funny, but it's true.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Hey, it's true.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
It's true. My dad is not dead. Just so you know.
But we were having a moment where like us not
having not want to spend time with our fathers because
of disagreements and or death, did have a moment of like,
let's have this conversation and I know, like people who
have lost people in their lives and have been able
to heal a little bit. And he says, if we'll

(22:52):
talk about like Dead Dad Club, Like I've heard that
as a reference in Dead Mom Club. Like all of
these things have been something that people have bonded over.
It kind of just natural and in the friendship may
form from that. I know for me, some of the
people that I worked with, including you any but like
when I was in social work going through really hard times,
we bonded over that. We bonded over the fact that

(23:12):
was really bad and our mental health were not good.
It's dark, but it helps you know. And again, men
apparently are a bit different. They're less talkative. It's not
about emotional support. It's more about activity with their counterparts.
But again with some opposite sex though, So when a
man is friends with women or whatever whatnot, they're more

(23:35):
likely to share their feelings and more likely than't have
that emotional support that they need. That might be an
important thing because they don't feel like they can say
it to other men, but they can talk about it
with other women.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, I have to say, I feel like this has
been my experience. In a lot of cases.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
We do.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
I'm happy to be your friend and listen to you,
but sometimes I'm like, I really wish you didn't feel
like we don't know each other that well, yeah, I
wish there was someone else that.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
And then it gets messy when you start having a partner,
Like if you have a romantic partner and you're you're
always that emotional support, which we're kind of going to
talk to you about a little bit, but like that's
gets messy and you know you can't be that for
that person anymore. So that's why the change in friendship
goes away. And that's the question about like can men
and women be friends, which we are going to get
into in a bit. And so for some more breakdowns

(24:31):
of stage and types of friendships. Social science libreate techs
actually has some different types of stages for us about
in friendship. Specifically, one of them is roll delimited interaction.
So you think that's the first stage. You're in the
same class or you work together, so it's an acquaintance
now and you kind of have this now common ground

(24:52):
that you are in the same situation, and you may
or may not take that outside of the space maybe
and you never talk about anything outside of that. I
have zoomba friends like this as we talk about the
immediate you know, oh, we had danced together, how are
you the superficial conversations that I'm like, I'm good with this.
You could update me while we're here. The next one
is the friendly relation. So you're still work involved, but

(25:15):
maybe you are having a deeper conversation there, or you're
purposely having more conversation and reaching, like finding each other
out in that class at work to find out how
something happened or whatever whatnot, you're talking more about the project.
This is kind of like my example. I don't know why,
but Courtney and who's been on the show before, whom
I love, one of my coworkers from the Department of

(25:35):
Juvenile Justice. She and I quickly became friends and she
is one of the most guarded people you'll ever meet.
I am not as much, but she is definitely, And
we kind of really came together because we were out
in the field together, had to be trained. The way
our job worked at the time was we traveled all
over the state of Georgia doing different kinds of reviews

(25:58):
and had to go through inspection with different places, and
we were being trained, and she and I decided to
go to lunch together because we had to, Like there
was really like either we're gonna start or we go
get lunch. And we were in a small town and
both of us were people of color. We're like, we're
not going in here by ourselves, what the hell? And
we bonded over that. So it was kind of like that, okay,
friendly relations stepping a little bit outside of getting to

(26:20):
know maybe we can be friends. That moves towards friendships
so well you actually do take things out. So she
and I started kind of like, hey, let's go meet
up here. Hey, let's go do this after the fact,
let's go to this, And we started talking more and
more like all right, I like you, we got we
got things in common. That goes into the Nacian friendship,
which start developing new norms, so like you do do things,

(26:42):
you do do traditions together, you do things outside of this.
It's not about work anymore. You have friendships outside of work.
Now now you get to be looping and then you
have stabilized friendships, which is the strengthening part, like you
really know each other, you get to know your friend's friends.
You're really secure about that you're watering and growing this friendship.
I have so many metaphors apparently for friendship any but like, yeah,

(27:07):
I get to meet your people and you get to
meet my people, and maybe our people can all be friends,
and there's no insecurity of be like I'm going to
be left out. I don't know what's going on. I
don't know what they're talking about. Like you can be
friends and maybe that can be friends, which makes our
friendship grow even stronger. Yeah, no, okay, And then sometimes
there comes the after, because it can be an after

(27:30):
an ending, and that's the waning of friendships here less
we have less impact on relationships towards an end or
just just less in general, Like you become kind of
go back to being an acquaintance. I'll tell you happy birthday,
I'll see how you're doing every now and again. And
there are several reasons for this. It includes physical distance,

(27:50):
no more common interests or that common interest is kind
of gone or no longer relevant, and even conflicts which
I feel like the political atmosphere has really caused a
lot of indifferendships yep, or on that later. Yeah, They
also reported that so these things can be gendered, so
they write this interestingly. Females and males in the study

(28:12):
did report differences in the likelihood that these five reasons
led to deterioration. Females reported that conflict was a greater
reason for friendship deterioration than males, and males reporting not
having many common interests was a greater reason for friendships
deterioration than females. I feel like men are more forgiving

(28:33):
in that route.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
It could be that. I wonder if it's also though
they don't talk as much about true things that matter. Well,
I don't want to say that, but like maybe women
are having those like I'm sharing secrets with you, are right,
like my life and myself and all this, and so
it hurts more when you have that conflict.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
I mean, yeah, you're right, because it says women make
friends based on emotional, emotional and support, as are men.
Men made friends made of like activity. So those were
different for sure. So that means that, yeah, that would
be if you're not activity is no longer aligned. Would
you be friends if that's the main reason that you
be friends. So you know, yeah, that's common sense that

(29:14):
I didn't put together till just now, thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Again, collaboration coming together.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
And somewhere along the lines, I also wanted to talk
about like the best friends forever type of conversation. Yeah,
but as in most things, sometimes friendships do come to
an end. And we often see this with the childhood
friendships that don't last into adulthood and some of the
things that happen specifically, and this is from Highland Center

(29:43):
for Healing dot com who talks about friendships. A lot
of therapeut peutic sites were like, hey, let me help
you through this friendship breakup. But they say, this is
some of the reasons that this happens. One maybe shifting priorities,
so as you grow older, whether it's your interests. So
like I had friends who were really in the tennis.
Guess who was not me. I was a drama nerd

(30:05):
and so you know, and with that also I had
to get a job, and they kept doing activities. They
were able to bond more than myself because I was
doing a completely different activity. So and money I was
important because I needed a gar No one was buying
me a car. Geography, Man, this does hurt a little bit,
it does. It hurts my feelings. Why'd you have to move.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yep?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, uh then changing social circles again, that's that whole level.
Like and not that say that people are popular verses,
but like we had definitely people who are friends with
went into band and band became their life. In the
drama like like when things happened things shift, was that
you any was banned your life?

Speaker 1 (30:51):
It's no, but it just makes me laugh. I know
we've talked about this before, but in my experience, band
in my school was like the thing people made fun of.
And I've learned from you it was like the thing.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
So like previously, yes, previously people would could be made
fun of, but like they were such a big entourage
of band people that they outdid all the other groups,
so there was no bullying that.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Okay, it's just every time I hear you talk about it,
I'm like, that was not my experience.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
But ye, well, and our people were like you know,
you know, like even my niece was bend leader. That
was a big deal. Oh yeah, and she they they
got led to, you know, doing the terrades in New
York because they won championships upon championships when that's the
only championships that occur in your school. You're not going
to be low in the tone poll.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
That's true, Like I'm just saying it. And then there's
connections just change. Your connections are no longer what it
is it used to be, but no longer is tech
could actually be a reason that you lose connections, that
you lose friendships. I know you would think more, but
whether it's like things that you see, things that you

(32:09):
post and I've seen this and it has made me
lose friends.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yes, oh yeah, and we also are going to talk
about that more. But it is it's a double edged sword,
the technology part, because it's it allows you to keep
in touch more with people, even who are close to you,
but especially the people who are far But also it
does allow you to see more than maybe you might
have and you're like, okay, no, I don't okay.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I see what you liked that was not cute?

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Never mind all right.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
And then there's also like just self awareness and growth.
You realize you're two separate people and this is very
different and what you like versus what they like it
is no longer it is what it is that's happened
to feel like outside of college right outside of college.
I realized, Mmmm, nah, I think this was just because
we were at Uga together or whatever college you were
it together. And then of course live transitions and all

(33:00):
life sucks. We're just good and it changes friendships. Yes,
it does, you know, but with all of that, because
I feel like as child you could lose friends. It
is still painful, but it were more likely to make
friends than adulthood. But is there actually a difference between
making friends as an adult versus as children?

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Any Yes, there is, and we will go through some
of it relates to what you were just talking about.
This has been the subject of a lot of conversation
recent years, especially around the difficulty of making and keeping
friendships as an adult, especially close friendships. Because you and
I talked about this, I'm actually really good at making friends,

(33:46):
not necessarily close friends, but I can make a friend.
I also found a really snarky reddit so I've read
it that was like, it's not hard. Why are we
talking about it? I know. I was like, Okay, do
you have friends? Because I will question Yeah, me too.

(34:09):
There are a lot of reasons for why it is
harder as an adult to make friends. For one, there
are a lot more responsibilities demanding your time. For most adults,
a job, maybe a spouse, maybe kids, maybe an ailing
family member, bills to pay, different schedules to balance my goodness,
And honestly, people might just be tired. And friendships do

(34:30):
take time and intent, and if you don't have that
time and intent, it's just not going to last or
not going to be very serious or close friendship. And yeah,
we do as we get older, a lot of us
do intentionally cut down unintentionally or intentionally cut down on
our number of close friends. We categorize friendships into passive

(34:51):
which would be like I see you at the office
and that's it. You're a pleasant person, but we're not
going beyond that, versus active friendships with there are the
ones that you are working to maintain. Author mel Robbins
has spoken extensively about the difficulty of making and keeping
new friends as an adult and even as a three
pillar theory as to why, and she explains that around

(35:12):
twenty we go through a pretty big life transition. Previously
we were generally surrounded by people our age doing similar
things with similar schedules. After that, things can really shift.
People move away, they change priorities, change someone you once
had so much in common with as a kid, is
now someone you might struggle to relate to because your

(35:33):
experiences are so different and perhaps your values too. It
can be very sad and painful. I did lose a
lot of friends as a kid, and then yep, when
I went to college. Yeah, and I remember just stopping
because you have that realization of, like, I'm probably never
going to see this person again. And we were so close.

(35:54):
When I was in China, I had this really close
friend group, and I just we're not I'll try, but
we're it's not gonna be this again. It's not going
to be this again. We're going our separate rays and
you recognize it. That's part of life, but it is
sad part of life.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Oh my goodness. I remember in like sixth grade. By
this point I had lost four of my best friends,
like and they were truly my best friends. And one
of them was really traumatic fashion and the friend that
I had all the way through high school and college
and almost in adulthood for the most part, and then
things fail apart. I made her promise that she wouldn't
leave me because it was soum and I just bald.

(36:34):
I just remember that moment like, please tell me if
you're going to be my friend, promise me you're not
gonna leave me. She kept that promise. Things fell apart later,
but you know, for this remainder of school, we were great.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, but it does hurt. It's really painful. But okay.
So what are the three pillars that Robin's describe for
making keeping friends as an adult. It's kind of what

(37:06):
you were talking about, Samantha. Proximity, timing, and energy. When
it comes to proximity, she cites research that concluded it
takes fifty hours to become a casual frint and two
hundred hours to become a close friend. If you aren't
physically close to each other, it's hard to put in
that amount of time. On top of that, being physically
close to people can be critical to making new friends.

(37:28):
So like when you're switching jobs, or you're moving, or
you're starting a new class, that can be really important.
Timing involves priorities and schedules. If those don't align, that
timing might not work out for that friendship. Energy has
to do with how you vibe with somewhat. It's not
necessarily I'm tired, I don't have energy It's kind of like,
is your energy matching mine? Is it a supportive, nurturing friendship.

(37:52):
Robin's also says that friendships can change and go quiet
and then come back. I certainly have a lot of
friends like this, so that makes complete sense me. In
Robin's words, let them live their lives, let them change,
let them meet new friends, let them not invite you,
let them go quiet, and let them come back. Sometimes
people are just in different parts of their life and

(38:13):
hopefully you kind of reconnect later. So then how do
we make friends? If it's something you want, Robbins advises,
you do it intentionally, taking action instead of waiting for
it to happen. A lot of people are kind of like,
almost like in a romantic sense, all when I meet
the right person, I'll know. But Robin's is like, no,
you've got to get out there and intentionally cultivate a friendship,

(38:38):
being consistent, finding people on the same general stage of
life or with similar interests. And that's what I used
to tell people is I don't know how great of
advice this is, but finds it like a similar like
if you are into an activity, go do a class
of that activity at the very least you'll meet people
who are you share that with.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
You know, this is also part of like horror movies too.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Oh do what do you think? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
That's I had to put that in here somewhere. Okay,
keep going.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yes, I'm also a note. We're not really going to
go into this, but social anxiety can absolutely impact everything
we're talking about. So I'm making your face. Yeah, that
advice of like go out and take a class for
not everybody that is going to be an easy thing
that they can do.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
I feel like the older you get, the harder it
gets mm hmmm, because it feels like there's some of
those activities that you love. Your age may seem like
you shouldn't be doing this.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yes, you know, I think about that all the time.
I think that that was Jack and Conn. I'm like,
should I still be cousplaying as a character. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
There's a hip hop class that I was like, oh,
it's for beginners, just for adults of them, Like, but
all these kids, they all look like twenties, and they'll
be like this old woman coming in. They're gonna if
they think I'm good, I'm gonna be the token old
person that they highlight to be like, see, she can
do it, so can you, you know, like extra special
treatment because you're old. I'm Micha Well damn, yeah, I
know what you're talking about as a loss of fear.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, I get you don't get to that. Uh.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I love all that because yes, like there's so much
to the science, because it's not been until recently that
they've actually decided they wanted to study friendship. And I
think it may have something to do with like the
conversation about loneliness epidemic, which we're going to talk very
slightly about later, but like people understanding it is hard
and it should be acknowledged that not everyone can do this,

(40:28):
not being friends with someone can do this, and whether
it's again like my own thing about like I need
depth if we don't have depth in our friendship and
also sense of humor, yes, but like both of those
things are very important for me to have a friendship
with you, Like you can you understand my sense of humor?
Can I understand your sense of humor? Can you go
deep with me in like this conversation and be able

(40:49):
to like work through some really traumatic feels, whether it's
about the world, the country, or ourselves, but then also
come out with it like and joke about it.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Still. Yeah, and we didn't even get in to this.
I think we've talked about it in previous episodes, but
there have been studies about the positive measurable health impacts
of friendship beneficial yees. So it is something that is
not frivolous. It is something that is really important and

(41:17):
does impact your health.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
It does mm hmm. It's like one of the things
that it does agree upon. And then we're going again
get into this bit about like the whole male loneliness
epidemic is it is actually killing men and not the
way you would think. It's not because you know, but
because of the loneliness, rather because they are so unwilling
to see that it needs to be a thing, that
friendship should be a thing. Ooh yeah, moving on, sorry,

(41:44):
but with that, speaking of men, can men and women
be friends? Annie, We've talked about this a few times.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Ah, we talked about it in our when Harry met Sally.
Is that it?

Speaker 2 (41:56):
And you know what that is one of the biggest
references for everyone's conversation in this topic. There, that is
the reference that people point to being like but they
can't y'all. Every single reference when we were looking at
this up was like the Harrie met Sally trope can
you be friends? And again there is that little like
we just talked about before, by that what men see

(42:19):
as value of friendship or how to make friends with
specific genders. That is a conversation and again that's a
patriarchy in itself and why we need to break that
down and misogyny and all these things. That's what's really
killing men. Hello, I said it out loud, But with

(42:40):
that in this conversation, like in society, can they be friends?
Can this be true for adults because of course it's children, yes,
But also there's still this layer of like gendered sexualization
on specific like specific young girls that it's like, oh,
is that your boyfriend? And they can't be friends? Like
they're being taught at like at a young age that

(43:01):
if you are with the opposite sex in any shape
or form, then that means that shirres your little boyfriend,
not your friend, a little boyfriend. And then I love
the kids who are like, no, that's my friend, get
it together. Those are my favorite kids, by the way.
But also like we have references like Mike Pence that
came up a couple of times about him saying that
he will never go uh to dinner alone or lunch

(43:24):
alone with a woman because that's disrespectful to his wife.
To mama, he calls mama, which is mother, isn't it?
Is it mother? I'm sorry, I was trying to make.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
It care.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, Grandma's But yeah, that's that question of like can
they actually be friends? That's a few articles. It's like
Berkeley actually talks about this as i'd call an article
as well, talking about whether or not it can be
and that she in this article is from like the

(43:57):
Los Angeles Tribunes, and a journalist wrote about her platonic
friendships with men she's known from childhood and what worked
and all of these things about how, yes, these are okay,
but it doesn't seem right, like having friends as a
child that are men or younger or I guess even
pre husband is okay, but after the fact it's not okay.

(44:21):
And I I get that, and I don't get that.
So there is this level as a person who has
been in a partnership for now seven years with assismel,
like there is that conversation of like, all right, I
don't want them to feel insecure? So how do I
make this happen? And things like iHeart. When I started working,

(44:45):
I made friends with a lot of dudes because we
have like our producer was a dude, like all these things.
But with that, it was on that same level that
she should be able to be friends with my partner.
So I get this. There's just like moment of like,
But is that because the patriarchy has set up so

(45:06):
much that you have to be careful. I have to
be careful as a woman to not be accused of
that type of interest.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, well, you know, we've talked about this before. I've
joked the friend made up a business card for me
that said she's not flirting, she's just nice. That is
another unfortunate thing of the patriarchy that kind of relates
to what we're talking about, where men have these conversations
with women they wouldn't have with men, and then they
think it's like, oh, she really gets me, which I might,

(45:39):
but that doesn't mean I'm romantically into you, right. But
I saw that too when I was running into a
lot of research about like once you get married, it
drops off the kind of friendship with someone of the
opposite sex drops off. And we've talked about this before.
I've become extremely wary of this because I trusted, oh,

(46:03):
you're in a stable relationship, oh you're married, or whatever
it is, and then it turns out that was not
the safe zone I thought that it was. So it's
really frustrating because I would like to live in a
world where I have plenty of male friends that I think,

(46:25):
you know, we're not that's not what's happening. But I've
become so weary because it's happened that I'm like, I'm
gonna I'm just gonna back off and let you instigate everything.
I'm not gonna instigate anything.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
And that is definitely a conversation because I'm like you
when I was single, I mean even now, like I,
I would think you're safe because you're in a relationship,
you're married. Why would you be interested in me? You
have a wonderful wife or you have a wonderful partner,
Like I don't understand, and then be shocked when things
would happen and be like what what is what is this?

(47:02):
What is this? Why is this the thing? And because
I was shocked because I was so unprepared and really
didn't think that was a possibility, Like I would be
flummox you know what I mean, and not respond the
way it should be, Like I should respond be like, well,
this is all and also like if you're friends with them,

(47:24):
And then also comes to the point like when I
was younger and friends with like we were all single,
I had a good, like good mix of male and
female friends, like we all came together, women and men,
and when those men would start relationships, I had to
back off. It made me very sad, and not because
I didn't think that they trusted them, but because I

(47:47):
understood again, as we talked about like when it comes
to it seems men and women and men actually allow
for women to be a support system for them, as
in friends that you know, steps into a boundary of like, okay,
are you having an emotional affair? How where are we
on this line?

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Yeah, I've definitely I have found myself regretting looking back
where I'm like, I think that was an emotional affair
and I feel horrible about it. I think realize that's
what was going on, right, And I've told you this before,
this is like the silliest thing. But one time I
was like I'm asexual, as if that means I can't

(48:29):
do anything.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
That says you can't have an emotional affair. That probably
was the best way to have an affair with you,
not that you were doing that. I'm just saying, yeah,
but all those things are so hard. But the thing is,
it's also really big research. So the Economist wrote about
this about how important it is to having intergroup relationships.

(48:51):
So it talks about the innergroup contact theory that the
more you are desensitized to that level of sexualization and
misogynic patriarchy, that you can have friends and it helps
you grow even better and also teaches you about things
like the patriarchy and why it's bad, and it helps
like decipher through your past codes that really had a

(49:12):
lot of biases when you start like, oh, oh, like
I see a lot of men who don't understand some
of these ideals until they have girlfriends or they have daughters,
or they have you know, like that type of level.
But if you can go ahead and get that early
by having empathy and having someone you care about that
might be an underlying victim in some of these things,
it really does open up for an individual to learn

(49:33):
this kind of compassion that we are severely lacking as
a society, that this ideal that this contact really does
bring in a positive interaction and then also lessons the prejudice.
So this is what it says. Specifically, the idea that
positive interactions between different groups can reduce the prejudice they

(49:54):
feel about one another. It has usually been applied to
ethnic or religious groups, may work for men and women.
So they're talking specifically about like these inner groups that
if we have more of that, if we actually allow
for true friendship and we're not talking about sexual relationships
that we're talking about friendships, that really does help lessen
the prejudice that is oftentimes there, the sexism, the misogyny,

(50:18):
the abuse in general in understanding that when we have
compassion for that, that that really opens up so much
more so something that we desperately need is really being
stifled by the patriarchy and misogyny. That is overwhelming.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of listeners can relate.
I have a lot of men in my life that
I have gone through this and continue to go through
this farm Like, no, what you're saying you really need
to learn or listen to me, or because you're not.
What you're saying is not accurate. It does not reflect

(50:59):
the experience of women, and they have, to their credit,
most of the men I'm talking about have grown.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Understand M'm trying to understand. I think that's what we're
also seeing when it comes to like immigration stuff. Right now,
more and more people us they're being affected.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
They're like, oh, yeah, this is the yeah, the find
out stage, but like understanding that had this been a thing,
had we been more open.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
And being with different groups of people and being in
different communities and seeing it from a different point of view,
what could happen in that inner group concept there? Man,
I feel like it's too late, but it's not. It's
not young kids. But can you be friends with an ex?

(51:59):
You know how feelings?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Annie? I know you do?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
I know you know I have feelings And it kind
of goes back and forth in this level. So are
you do you consider yourself still friends with your ex?

Speaker 1 (52:13):
I consider myself an acquaintance with one and a friend
with one. The rest of them I never talked to.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
So okay, okay, so percentage wise, how many? What percentage
of Yeah? I want I need I need a specifics here.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Okay, let me think, oh my gosh, this is complicated
because you know, I get asked on oopsie dates all
the time.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
No, so say X, we're literal relationship, like you have
the step relationship. Yes, not just an accidental one time
date okay, or four time date for you.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Oh no, I think it's seven or eight to be
out of Oh that's my total. That's all of that,
two out of eight.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Okay. So we're saying what twenty rate success rate of friendship?
I hold at like zero point one percent. But I
haven't had too many relationships Okay, so actually probably higher
percentage wise, to be fair, I feel like I had

(53:24):
to do my number and you're so no, because I'm not,
like I've told you, like my like most serious relationship
is my current relationship. So yeah, but like the two before,
so I've had three and I'm friends with one now ish,
I'm acquaintances with one ish mm hmm. Okay, so thirty

(53:47):
three percentage My percentage is higher. Math is fun, No,
it is not. So. This was a study that Rebecca
Griffith did and told Live Science essentially that said that
it's a very pervasive phenomenon the friendships and that sixty
percent of people remain friends after a romantic split, so

(54:11):
that's pretty high. Now I think we're paying to split.
It may be more like yours, like they had a
moment and then they're like, never mind, but they weren't
actually in a relationship, while twenty two percent actually are
still friends with their partners. Now, I have seen more
trends of like parents who are having to co parent,
trying to learn to be friends, and having to be

(54:32):
friends whether they wanted to or not. There's a few
reasons why they did this, and again that's one of
those reasons. Others it does say that they still want
to have sex with them, so they remain friends, which
I feel like is a disaster.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Abe.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
I'm just you know, odd. Some of it is because
of mutual friendships. They don't want to lose friends, so
they have to kind of remain in that circle together,
which is super awkward. Which is why don't like my
friends dating each other. I need that to be noted.
I get very upset about this, especially if I'm no,
it's not gonna go anywhere. I'm like why mm hmm.
But then also they talk about like again like pets

(55:12):
pets is a new thing because they like it's kind
of like children. They're not at all not I'm not
equating that the same thing, but I'm just saying, like
the love and wanting to care and getting attached to
the pets, that's another big reason. And I get it.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yeah, I definitely, I've read I've read more and more
about that too.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
But yeah, so like it's kind of there's a lot
of reasons why you should be Again, I go back
to the realm of like you need to go away.
I need you to be on the island of X's.
I don't need to see you. I don't care about
what you're doing. Congratulations on your fourth kid and fifth
shoe pairing, couple of shoes whatever. I don't want to know.

(55:57):
So that's how I land on this. But again, like
if having children, having a pet, even I feel like
it is like there's gonna be a if you truly
had a good bond, Like if it's a whole other
traumatic reason, cut them out, do it, get that restraining order,
whatever you need to do. Boo. I did see a
few things where the black community talk about their friendship

(56:19):
dynamic versus their friendship with people outside of the black community,
and I like there's definitely a lot of questions in conversations.
I saw a whole thing on TikTok about the Asian
American community, talking about if you're not from that specific
area and try to make friends with them, you're not
going to be welcome. If there's any Bay Area Asian

(56:43):
people who want to tell me about those, talk to me,
you can. But that was one of the biggest things
that I have actually seen where in the Asian community.
Because I'm adopted, I am not welcome, and they wouldn't
say that to me, but there are obvious looks of oh, oh,
oh oh, that level of tone that I'm like, I'm

(57:05):
very well, I guess I can't be friends with you anyway.
But there definitely is a conversation about the differences and
the changes, and unfortunately it is what it is. There's
a decrease in diverse friends groups because of the administration
and the times that we are living in, and a

(57:27):
lot of reasons come out to play. They talk about
distrust in the white communities. We talk about white feminist women.
I know it's not y'all. I know it's not like
most of our listeners, but even with that level of like,
they might not understand they might not see it for themselves,
but the amount of unlearning that has happened. And I
say that for myself living in white culture, like I

(57:50):
have to do, I had to do a lot of unlearning,
Like you can see it from our first book club
where we did White Fragility, and I have many regrets,
but because it was recommended, like I go on like
the defensive immediately, I was like, but my therapist, who
was black, she's the one that recommended to me. But
she did it because we needed to ease in, Like
I can guarantee she's like, y'all aren't ready to hear

(58:13):
the absolute truth, so you need to be eased in
by someone who's gonna hold your hand. And that's kind
of that level of like, oh right, and the unlearning
is a lifetime of things that we have to unlearn
when we're not like a part of a culture. And
because of that, like we see that there's a level

(58:33):
of distrust because a lot of people don't want to
admit and it took us a minute to figure out,
oh yeah, that's that's not necessarily the best because I'm
still kind of like obviously I'm still feel like, oh,
but but it's true, and so there's just a level
of like distrust. I will say I have told many
people I am more scared of white men than I

(58:55):
have any other group of people's because there's so much
context and kind of take, especially today, especially today in
the State of Georgia, that happens that it's like, all right,
once upon a time you could have told me everything's
a melting pot, but it's not. And we don't like
that term either, But you know, at least that had
a little more understanding than when we are today. Then again,

(59:18):
also that microaggression that continues today, that continues about whether
or not the people are mad about Asian stuff in general,
the whole thing that happened with COVID, the like microaggressions,
that level that happened with the black community, DEI conversations
that are happening today, like celebrating the end of DEI

(59:40):
not understanding that diversity, equity and inclusion means everyone like
that level like understanding it is like ugh, okay, and
because of an Asian dude coming after like affirmative action,
there's a distrust of that, so like it's absolutely understandable.
And then also this conversation about childhood and how that

(01:00:02):
it is taught. Obviously, I feel like these are obvious thoughts,
but we don't really think on it. We don't really
talk about it scientifically, and there's bigger conversations in what
that actually means and what that actually looks like. So
on a twenty sixteen NYU study, it shows that teachers
play a big part in this. And we know there's

(01:00:23):
a lot of QC conversations about how teachers are so
it's such an influence and they do so much, but
they really really do impact a lot of what the
culture is going through today. And it can also discourage
young children in making friends outside of their specific group
ethnicity like that when you're kids, you don't know, and

(01:00:47):
we've seen many mania moments where children don't know they
are taught that this could be wrong for some un
real reason, like not realistic reasons. So here's the actual
quote says. Although research shows that children with greater access
to diverse peers are more likely to form inter racial friendships,
I findings suggest that access to diversity alone is not

(01:01:10):
sufficient for fostering these friendships, and teachers may play a role.
Studies show that most childhood friendships are formed in classrooms,
but children tend to form friendships with others of their
own race or ethnicity, with interracial friendships decreasing across ages
and grades. Yet for nearly half a century, educators and
scholars have argued that friendships across race have social and

(01:01:32):
emotional and academic benefits. And of course we're not saying
that all teachers are being divisive on purpose, or that
they're all encouraging segregation in friendships, but it isn't surprising
to note that teachers do hold a lot of influence.
And if there is a prejudice within teachers, or they
show different treatment based on race or socioeconomic status, then

(01:01:55):
it wouldn't be hard to see that that would influence
children they are supposed to be educating, even like whether
it's making fun of a name, refusing to say a
name out loud, refusing to say a name correctly, that
really does influence children to another child, And I don't
think we think on that enough and how severe those

(01:02:16):
types of microaggression can be when it comes to the
environment you're creating in your classroom. Again, this is not
all teachers, but this is also why when you have
an amazing teacher. It can change, It can change your
perception of so many things that you're like, wow, okay,
you made this where it made it easy for me

(01:02:38):
to have friends without feeling like my otherness is going
to get in the way, or that there is an
otherness to get in the way, you know. So that
there's so much to that point and to that level.
And I will say that I my kindergarten teacher. I
came in not knowing English. I can't say that I

(01:02:58):
have any memory of her denigrating me or making fun
of me at any point, but I think I do.
But what I do have memories of her celebrating the
things that I was doing, you know what I mean,
So like that did not make me feel shamed necessarily
for being there. Instead, I felt like, Okay, I'm learning,
and I learned very quickly to acclimate in language and

(01:03:19):
itself because for six months I was not speaking English.
So fuck for me to come in and my mom
specifically requested this teacher. I'm sure I frustrated the hell
out of her because I don't think I was her favorite.
Don't get me wrong, but she really she never did
anything to me or ostracized me from the other people

(01:03:41):
being my friend a That could be a level fetishism
in that, but that's a whole different conversation. But I
never did not like I could make friends, So that
was an amazing thing, as well as the fact that
I don't have any memories of being shamed, and those
are things that would haunt me for sure, And at
never point did I feel like that I couldn't, you know,

(01:04:02):
be another person. Did I want to be white? Of
course that came with my own insecurities, but the teacher
was not the reason. Mis Hilda, I remember you. But
that's the thing is like that kind of environment, I
made sure to help me instead of hinder me in
that level. So that's a huge conversation that I don't

(01:04:23):
think we're having enough of about how big of an
influence a teacher has in friendship making and that being said,
growing into adults with kindness and compassion and less prejudice.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Yeah, absolutely and clearly. There are so many avenues of
friendship to discuss, and we've only gotten through half of
the ones we've wanted to. So this is going to
be a two parter. This is part one and the
next one we're going to talk about all kinds of

(01:04:58):
other things. We have so many things about friendship to
talk about, so please come back and listen to that one.
If you have any thoughts about this episode, let us know.
You can email us at Hello at Steppmhenever Told You
dot com. You can find us on Blue Sky at
mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
when Never Told You. We're also on YouTube and we

(01:05:19):
have new merchandise at Cotton Bureau, and we have a
book you can get where you get your books. Thanks
as always, char A super produced, Christina Executive producing, my
ercontributor Joey.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Steffan Never Told You is production by Heart Radio for
our podcast on my Heart Radio. You can check out
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