A Very Merry Holiday Bonus Episode

In this bonus episode, we unwrap some holiday movie tropes.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've
never told you. Today, we have a very special bonus
episode for you, just in time for Christmas. And we
also have a special guest, my good friend Katie. We

(00:30):
started out as roommates in college and we would go
every Friday to a laporea UM and we would get
a student discount at the movie theater. Yeah, every Friday.
And we saw a lot of bad movies, and we
continue to see a lot of bad movies, yes, but
we never really watched Christmas movies. We were very much
into the horror more than anything else. Yes, and there

(00:54):
is the sweet spot of Christmas horror movies. Oh, I
do love those. They are universally bad, but I love them. Yes.
So if you if you couldn't tell, today we're going
to be talking about, um some some holiday movie trips
because one thing that you are an expert in these

(01:14):
holiday movies. Yes, I would say specifically the Hallmark brand, UM,
but it's really expanded to different channels like Ion Channel
and Lifetime and those are actually a little bit more
edgy and more diverse, and I appreciate them a lot
because there is more diversity, and I know we'll talk

(01:35):
a little bit more about that later. But Hallmarks, you know,
very conservative. Oh yeah, well i'll see. I don't have
much experience at all, which is why it's good that
you're here. Um. And yeah, thank you so much for
joining us for this very special episode. Thank you for
having me kind of meta experience after listening to this
podcast for so many years to be on it, so

(01:59):
you know that's nice. Yeah, well let's dive in here.
But first, do you have any any favorites, any favorite
holiday movies? Well, if we're going like kind of Hallmark
brand Christmas movies, there's two that I tend to watch
every year, and they're they're fairly recent. Um. One is

(02:21):
A Christmas Kiss okay um, which is actually an I
on television movie, So I guess I should clarify that. Um.
I really love the main character, Wendy Walton, that she
has like really great supportive friends and their named Tressa
and Caroline and Trisa in particular, is a little bit
more fleshed out than most of the sidekicks, and she

(02:46):
has her own career that she's really passionate about, but
she's still very supportive. And I actually think this movie
passes the bec Deltas, which not a lot of holiday
movies do. I don't think, Oh yeah, um, so yeah,
that's why I like this one. There's even a curse word,
I know I on television Edgy, Like I said, Um.

(03:09):
The second one that I really like is The Spirit
of Christmas, UM, where the main male character is actually
a ghost um and he was murdered on Christmas Eve
years before, and so there's a little bit of the
murder mystery element to it. And I honestly can't tell

(03:33):
you how it really makes any sense at all that
they like wind up together as he's a ghost, and
but it's just okay, you just go with it. You're like,
I buy it. So you know, the Spirit of Christmas
is worth a watch in my opinion. Okay, And is
that a hallmark? I think so. Um. I watched it

(03:55):
on Netflix and I tried to look it up and
I didn't see what and all it originated on. But
kind of looking at these two movies, I did notice
that I believe they were both written by a woman,
So I think that I think that probably adds to
you know, now that I know that, I'm like, oh,
that totally makes more sense. Because I like the feeble
characters better in these movies than a lot of the
others that I've seen. So right, And the thing about

(04:21):
when I was looking into this, because I have a
certain subset of holiday movies I watch every year, but
beyond that, I don't really venture out. Um. But I
was trying to research and prepare for this episode, very
special bonus episode, um. And a lot of people have
written essays about why they think that we love these

(04:43):
very formulaic um holiday movies. I mean, they're they're they're
the junk food. Yeah, they're they're soothing. You know exactly
how they're going to turn out. It doesn't take a
lot of thought. And you know, the holidays are crazy,
You've got family everywhere, You're trying to figure out your
opping and maybe in some cases you're avoiding your family,
and you know, it's it's just soothing, and so I

(05:07):
mean it's like big budget action movies like in the summer.
I think it's just like the holiday version of that.
They just they don't require a lot of thought, right,
And a lot of articles pointed out how beautiful they
are and like unrealistically, so if you take the case
of New York. There's never raining graffiti, you're dumb or yeah,

(05:32):
I mean you might even be getting into the bigger
budget ones that are actually filmed in the winter. Most
of them on the Hallmark Channel are not. There's like
little patches of snow and then there's just like beautiful
green trees in the background, and you're like, oh, this
is a lovely winter scene, right, And so it's like
you just see them like it's so cold and like
nobody's breath is showing and all that stuff. So yeah,

(05:53):
I part of me think that's why a lot of
them aren't set in big cities is because it just
costs more to make them there. And so it's like
small towns are the best thing ever for our holiday movies, right,
Which is interesting because it plays into a trope. Oh
my gosh, this trope is honestly one of the ones

(06:14):
that I find the most annoying. A lot of big
city career women going to the small town because something
to do with their job. You know, I've got to
write this story, I've got to buy this property. They
get sent out there and they play it for last
a lot where it's like this big city woman is
there and she can't survive without her constant WiFi and

(06:34):
lattez Just how dare she thinks she's better than us
kind of thing, And I don't like that dichotomy. And
I think it plays into a lot of like, you know,
political identity as well, where it's like I'm rural, I'm
a real American, that kind of thing, and I dislike that,

(06:55):
you know, from my own experience and I know from
your experience. We're both from like small towns in Georgia,
Like we've done the small town life. I'm currently living
in my hometown again. And it's just it's it glosses
over the fact that, you know, I live in a
small town or in my county where people don't have
the same political and social opinions as I do. And

(07:18):
I'm like someone coming from the city probably a little
bit more liberal than these people in a small town.
Not to try to generalize, but I feel like that's
often the case, and it just completely glosses over that.
And you know, it's like that's a big change. There's
a lot of things that go into it, not just
because you met some hot guy who has a lot
of Christmas spirit and it's all gonna work out. Um.

(07:40):
So it's like that one in particular really does bother me. Um,
and it gets done. And so many of them, I
would say, the majority of them. Um. It is kind
of like you go, you've you've been chasing this career,
but it doesn't really make you happy. This small town

(08:01):
will make you happy. Which not to just on small towns,
like to each their own if that's the lifestyle you want.
But I think it just idealizes that too much. And
I mean, of course they're like short and sweet little movies.
They're not going into like the complexities of adult relationships.
But I mean that's a big change that no one

(08:21):
ever really addresses, right, And I am my limited experience
with holiday movies. The two trips that I have observed
the most are the Holiday the Hunk. The holiday hunk,
as I've seen him described, the woman comes for some reason.
She has to go to this small town. Perhaps there's
like her aunt has died and there's a legal thing

(08:43):
she's got to go do or something, but she has
to go back to this small town for whatever reason.
Sometimes it's to find the best Christmas tree in America.
That's happened a few times more than once that's happened. Yeah,
I mean there's a lot of like I have to
find the perfect tree or the perfect X and like
because of my overly demanding boss. But yeah, it's like
there's some reason they've wound up in this town, right,

(09:07):
and then they meet the Holiday Hunk, and they sort
of leave this life that they created for themselves behind
in the city. And I always did feel along with
what you were saying. It also just I get the
point they're trying to make, and that you're too tied
up and work you've forgotten like the human elements of life.

(09:33):
But it's it is seeing that story over and over again.
It is simplified because these movies are yes, they're like
comfort food, they're short, but it is kind of exhausting. Yeah, no,
I completely agree. I'm like, I don't watch as many
of these movies as I used to. I mean, there
was one point a few years ago where I had
literally seen every holiday movie on the Hallmark channel for

(09:56):
a week and on Lifetime Movie the same week, and
it was like a point of like pride and kind
of deep shame because that was a lot of hours
of watching these movies. And so it's like I'm not
as up to date on like this year's batch of movies,
which there's many of them. Um, but yeah, it's like

(10:16):
the career woman going to the small town and then
the workaholic typically dad, um and then he somehow has
hired a woman to take care of his kids or
decorate his house because he's trying to make the holiday special,
but he's not actually taking time out of his busy
schedule until this almost manic pixie dream girl walks in

(10:39):
and she's bubbly and not as you know, done up
and organized, and it's almost like they're making fun of
her as well, because it's like she's not organized, she
doesn't have her life together, but this job like makes
her pull it together. And she meets this man and
she loves the kids, and then she changes him to
realize the importance of family, but she also learns how

(11:01):
to get her life together. Um. So yeah, those that
happens a lot. Yeah, that's the other troupe in my
subset of six movies that I watched every year. Yeah,
I have noticed is the workaholic dad like on Christmas
Eve realizing, oh, I've been so wrong all this time.

(11:24):
My family is so important, I know, Also, there's a
lot of very bad parenting going on in the Sawmart
movies because like the kids are there as plot devices,
but they're like, I'm like, you are leaving them unsupervised.
There's often some sort of like accident where of course
they're okay, but you know they've been in danger, and
I'm like, people need to take away your children away,

(11:46):
Like I mean, maybe that would be helpful, um if
you provided good childcare. But yet again not the point
of the movies. Yes, not as exciting. Yeah, it's also
very funny because like the same child actors pop up,
unlike the Hallmark movies, like oh yeah, I was the
same kid of the single mom over here, and now

(12:07):
is the kid of the single dad, And it's like
it's just so funny. I guess once they find a
kid actor that works, they just go with it. I
bet someone out there has made like they unified the
universe of holiday movies. Probably, I'm sure if that person
is listening, please please let us Yes, I would love

(12:29):
that list. I mean, and like Hallmark in particular is
very bad, are bad? Are good? Depending on how you
look at it. Hiring the same people every year to
do these movies like Lacy Sabert of Mean Girls fame
has been in so many Hallmark movies. Yes, and Kendice

(12:50):
kemn Bret who played DJ on Full House. She is
in a lot of them. Yes, I didn't know that
her name. I Yeah. The men actually get cycled through
a lot more than the women. Like you'll see like
one actor in like a two or three movies, but
not any of the level of Lacey Shabert. She's the

(13:14):
number one, I think. So as an actor, I know
the dream is to get one successful holiday movie because
they play it every year. Yeah, and so you'll at
least have that that you can depend on. Good for them,
I know, I'm like that probably is a very sweet
job where you're like, I'm going to go make these
Christmas movies, guys, I'll be back and you'll you'll see

(13:37):
me again next year, So more power to him. Another
trope that I found a lot when I was researching
this is the workaholic grinch. Yes. Um, there's a very
good example of this in a movie called It's Christmas Carol,
like with the comma. Oh. Yes. She is a book editor,

(14:02):
high powered and her former boss who is actually played
by the late Great Carrie Fisher, and she then comes
back as all three of the ghosts, and she has
to learn work isn't everything, and you know, she goes
to the funeral for herself and no one's there and

(14:22):
all of these things. The part that made me almost
lose my mind is that this incredibly knowledgeable book editor
had to google the basic plot of a Christmas Carol.
Oh yeah, I don't know about that, just so like
the audience would know. And I'm just like, if you're
watching this movie, you're probably familiar, and be you expect

(14:45):
me to believe a literary editor doesn't know one of
the most famous stories ever. And so I was just like, Okay,
you got some points for Carrie Fisher, but I think
you just lost them. That's a pretty big miss step. Yeah. Yeah.
There's a couple of other variations on the workaholic grinches

(15:09):
that often show up in these movies, um, and one
of them is that there's a Christmas themed business, like
they make gingerbread or you know, they make plastic candy canes,
like various strange Christmas related items, and this business is
in trouble and it's pretty much the source of jobs

(15:31):
for the entire town so if they lose this business,
like the town is going to die. And then normally
the head of the company is a man who's trying
to preserve his family's legacy. And not not exclusively men,
but I feel like that happens more often than women
being in charge of these companies. And then a woman

(15:53):
who is either a workaholic from a different company that's
like interested in buying this one out or taking it
over comes in and then you know, she saves the
company at the end, and then of course they fall
in love and run this company together. Um. But then
there's also a different female archtec with the same like

(16:13):
porcoholic company man, and that's just someone who like loves
Christmas so much and she can't lose this this part
of Christmas and it's been in her childhood. And for
some reason, this love of Christmas seems to magically give
her powers to save businesses, Like she comes up with
the idea that's going to save everything, even though like

(16:33):
these people who have been running the company for generations
couldn't think of it, and so you know, she comes
up with an innovative idea and it's all well by Christmas.
Normally they have a Christmas even day like deadline, like
we have to show that you can save the business,
because of course that's when people do the most business

(16:54):
of the year. And there's also different architect where there's
typically a female character who's working really hard at a
job that's not her passion. So she could be like
an interior designer, but she actually really loves designing stage productions,

(17:15):
as in a Christmas kiss um. And then she's working
so hard at this job and it typically has something
to do with baking or writing or design kind of
already sort of feminine or at least thought of a
feminine it would it's she's not like a woodworker, you know, um,

(17:37):
and she's somehow finds a way to be successful and
financially secure pursuing her passion and you know, generally with
the help of a man in some way, like he
makes her realize that she needs to, you know, pursue
her dreams and things like that. So yeah, the workaholic

(17:59):
grinch is or just workaholics in general is very common,
and there's complex variations thereof sounds like I've been missing
out all these years, any I suppose, So, I mean
I would say of the six or seven I watch
every year four are this but with men as the

(18:20):
workaholic grunch, and it does surprise me. I guess it should,
and I guess that's the whole point that they're Yeah,
they're always working on Christmas Eve and it's like at
night on Christmas Eve two. Like I've worked on Christmas Eve,
but I always got off, Like it's always always during
the day. That's acceptable. I mean it's not really, but

(18:41):
I have at least was able to leave my job
and for I know for some people that that's not
even an option, but in the cases of these movies,
it absolutely is an option and they're choosing. Yeah. I
do wonder if that also ties back into a Christmas Carol,
where you know, poor little Bob Cratchett having to nego
shape the time off. So I wonder if that's where

(19:01):
that archetype came from. And it's like he, yeah, he
who Bob Crashett, who wanted to go home and spend
time with his family because he has kind of held
up as like the ideal family man versus the people
who are choosing to do it, you know, and comment
on our materialistic society. Yeah, which is so interesting because
Christmas is materialistic. Yeah, and it's it's it's funny because

(19:27):
like they're definitely Hallmark movies where it's like, we got
this sponsor and we are going to feature them to
no end. And the one that I particularly remember is
a Christmas Kiss Too, which is not nearly as good
as a Christmas Kiss. I will straight up tell you
that Christmas Chris two did premiere on the Hallmark channel.

(19:48):
And in it, there's a very wealthy man whose family
runs a department store, but he's always been kind of
not taking it seriously. And then he meets his sister's
assistant who has really great ideas but she just can't
get them out there, and you know, they fall in
love and at the end he proposes spoiler alert and

(20:10):
with the ring he opens the box and it's from
K Jewelers and she and she says, is that the
such and such diamond from K Jewelers? Like that's her
reaction to this proposal and everything, And you're just like,
not just not in K. But if I'm with a multimillionaire,
I would expect him not to go to K. I

(20:33):
mean that might just be a snob thing for me,
but it was unexpected to say the least. Yeah, that
is definitely not the first thing. I I mean, who knows,
but I don't think that'd be the first thing out
of my mouth and someone, Yeah, it's like you you weren't.
Just like I was admiring that diamond at K Jewelers.

(20:55):
I go every day after work, and I would fantasize
about this day I know, And it's I don't think
she even worked at like a jewelry store. Like that
was the strangest thing about it. It's like there wasn't
really a reason for her to know this diamond. I mean,
unless I'm confusing it with a different movie, which is
quite possible. They do run together with very similar titles
and actresses and such as that. But for some reason,

(21:17):
that one really stuck with me. I was like, I
see what you did their Cage Jewelers. That's funny because
we were just talking about, um, we were watching Home
Alone recently, yes, and we were talking about product placement
and Home Alone and a lot of it is pretty
well done because I didn't notice it until, like, this
is probably the hundred plus time I've seen that movie.
To be honest, I didn't notice it until you pointed

(21:37):
it out like I don't know what I know. And
then you're like, look, how did this product place? But
I'm like, okay, I never noticed, so I guess it
didn't work on me, or either it did, and you
I didn't even know what some of those products were. Yeah,
well whatever ceial he was eating. I'm like, I don't.

(21:58):
I don't recognize that at all. Well, an excellent study
in product placement done correctly, then yes, I would say. So.
Another trip we're got to talk about is Princesses. And
this came on my radar after listening to NPR recently
and they did a whole deep dive in what's the

(22:18):
big one on Netflix? It's really bad. Christmas Prince, Christmas
Prince Okay, Okay, that was came out last year, and
then this year A Christmas Prince to the Royal Wedding
came out this year, continuing the story of Richard and
Amber um Well. On the NPR segment, they were trying

(22:41):
to get to the bottom of why people were so
into this movie that most everyone agreed was pretty bad.
It's kind of what we were talking about of like
the comfort, the mindless entertainment of it. Yeah, I mean,
and I think being on Netflix is use a huge
advantage for that particular movie, because it's like you weren't

(23:05):
gonna sit down and watch it on Hallmark probably, you know,
and so it was just maybe a different audience that
got to see it, you know, for people who don't
have cable. You could watch at anytime, you could pause it,
you know. I mean, there's just there's just advantages to
being on Netflix, I think. And I think it just
hit all of the formulaic things you expect a princess

(23:28):
Christmas movie to hit. You know. It's like one of
the things about these prince or princess movies is there's
a lot of deception. It almost always starts off with,
you know, either the prince is pretending to be a
normal person because he wants to have a normal interaction
and the girl meets him when he's not the prince

(23:49):
and they sort of get interested, and then you know,
it has to come out that he's the prince and
she's been lied to. But the variation on this trope
that is actually an Christmas Prince is Amber, the lead
female character is lying about being a journalist. She has
used deception to pretend to be the prince's younger sisters

(24:13):
tutor to get into the palace, and that happens fairly often.
It's generally like a journalistic angle, and they're they're trying
to get head in their career and they have a
very low opinion of the prince and the royal family,
and then they start to know them and they find
them charming and just have a difficult you know, life

(24:35):
in the spotlight and living up to the pressures. There's
generally a dead parent I mean, because you know, the
prince has got to become the king somehow, I mean.
But actually the dead parent trope is in a lot
of these holiday movies where it's like there's a parent
who loved Christmas and that's why one of the characters
loves Christmas so much. They're trying to keep it alive,

(24:56):
or it's like some family tragedy happened on Christmas and
they've been avoiding at their whole lives. Um. But specifically
in a Christmas Prince the father has died, you never
see him. And another trope that you see in these
particularly princess or wealthy movies where the commoners you know,

(25:17):
coming into this world is they always have an ally
who knows how things work. So in a Christmas Prince,
it's actually Princess Emily, the younger sister, who really embraces Amber,
and she actually knows that she's a journalist almost from
the beginning, but wants to help Amber get the truth
out about her brother, that he's not this playboy kind

(25:40):
of thing. And another thing about the princess trope is
that once they become a princess or become the love interest,
you know, there's the big magical reveal in a beautiful
dress and the hair and the makeup is perfect, and
everyone kind of turns and gasps and they do that.

(26:00):
But then there's always something to show that they're still them,
Like they're wearing their lucky shoes, like tennis shoes, like
they are in a Christmas Prince, or you know, it's
like the locket that their mother gave them. There's always
something to indicate to you. It's like they they they're
not really changed. There's still them. There's still the normal
person that this prince has fallen in love with. She's

(26:23):
still Jenny from the block, oh yes, or Ember from
the diner in this case, yes, so you know, and
then there's normally, like based on the deception, there's some
sort of moral dilemma, typically like how how do I
tell the prince that I'm in love with I've I've
only known for about three days that I've I've been

(26:45):
lying to him this whole time, and he trusts me,
and he has trust is shoes because people have tried
to use him. And there's also always the villain or
villainess character wants something from the prince, like they want
to be the princess, and so it's like they pretend
that they're in love to manipulate them into proposing, and

(27:06):
so they're very much out to get our normal girl protagonist. Um.
In the case of a Christmas prince, they break into
her room and discover that she has lied about her identity.
They also find the documents that she had found that
indicate that Prince Richard was adopted and actually isn't the

(27:27):
heir to the throne. Oh my goodness, Yeah, I wasn't
expecting this turn. Actually, that is like one of the
most surprising things I've seen in Christmas movies in a
long time, I know, where it's like he's not really
a blood relation to the late king. Um don't worry.
It works out. The king made a decree before he

(27:48):
died that Richard could become king. Oh god, yes, just
based on how good of a person he was, not
because of royal blood or lack there of. Yes, there's
like that message of like blood might not be there,
but you're still more son. Yeah, I mean I actually

(28:09):
did appreciate their their family dynamic because a lot of
times in these movies, particularly if it's like the wealthy
family or the royal family, there's one of the parents
is very aloof and it's very much only about the
perception and it's like they eventually come around because they've
been one over by normal girl charm or see that
their son is happy. But I actually got the impression

(28:32):
of a warm familial relationship between the parents and Richard
and Emily, which was actually kind of nice. I mean,
she the queen was still like we've got to think
about the country, but she was just very more, much
more open and loving than a lot of them are
portrayed in the movie, particularly in the beginning. H yeah,
a good review, kind of Christmas Prince. Oh, yes, I

(28:55):
can go into more detail if you would like getting
that sense. Yes, yeah, I mean. And then I think
another aspect of the princess appeal, as I like to
think of it, is that that just runs so deep
for girls because you're taught at such a young age
like this is how you are valued, Like your dad

(29:17):
treats you like a little princess. You're supposed to find
a man who treats you like a princess to like
be your worth. And you know, I think it's it's
just so ingrained that even if you when you're an adult,
you don't buy into it so much, but there's still
that aspect of it of you've been kind of taught
societally that this is kind of what you want, this
is what you want to achieve, and it's like, then

(29:40):
there's all the Disney movies where it's princesses, princesses, princesses,
and then you have the less problematic movies like Frozen Marijuana,
but they're still princesses. They're not normal girls. You know.
The princesses are the ones you're supposed to care about.
And then additionally, I think that kind of being with

(30:01):
a prince represents the ultimate security you could have in
your life. They're rich, they're powerful, like they're going to
their family has been around for so long. It's not
like suddenly the stock market is going to drop out
and they're gonna lose everything. I mean, they have a country,
you know, so and I think you know, you're never
if you're with a prince, you're never going to have

(30:22):
to do a real job. You know. It's like your
career is never going to be your focus and you're
not gonna have to do housework. But your role is
defined in a very like old school femininity, like this
is your role. And so like in a Christmas Prince
to the Royal wedding, you see Amber, our normal girl

(30:45):
struggling with that and you know, trying to modernize it.
That's also a very big theme. Like normal girl comes
in and says, well, I'm not going to do it.
I think your traditions are stupid, and some somehow everyone
comes to accept this, Like even the old dodgy royal
family is like, okay, I guess because he loves you,
Like that's totally fine. But so you know, just in

(31:07):
another way, situations are simplified. But you know, I think
there's multiple reasons why Christmas movies and then Princess Christmas
movies are so widely appealing. Yeah, I I mean, apart
from Frozen, which is not technically a Christmas movie because
it's like winter time, it plays a lot during the

(31:29):
Christmas season. I don't think I've seen it Christmas Princess movie,
and I didn't know until researching this that it was
such a big thing. Yeah, Like there's multiple ones on Netflix,
like not Netflix original ones. Um. I think another one
that I've watched is a Princess for Christmas um where

(31:50):
the main female characters caring for her orphaned niece and nephew.
Their parents have died tragically, but they're father was the
heir to some sort of title, and so they get
invited to go and see their stodgy, rich grandfather who
had problems with his son and banished him because he

(32:12):
married their mother, who was a commoner and everything. So
then her sister comes in and wins the heart of
his younger brother and eventually wins over the the old
curmudgin grandpa in the in the process. So you know,
princesses and Christmas just go so well together. They go
hand in hand apparently, I mean, because why else would

(32:34):
you be dressed up? You got to have the big
fancy dress reveal movement or moment. And how else are
you going to do that other than a Christmas eve ball?
Dub No, there's no other reason to dress up. It's
always Christmas eve too, And I'm like, do you people
not have other things to do to I have never
been invited to a Christmas eve ball, so you know

(32:57):
that's why I haven't been in my own Princess movie.
That's that's that. That's key. If I was invited to
a Christmas eve ball, it would happen. Everything would change,
it would I mean, I would have a fancy dress moment.
I would impress all of the aristocracy with my normalness.
But style, no stopping me. That's right. We we know

(33:20):
what to do. But execution. I know. It's like, you
can't just throw yourself a Christmas ball, that's the problem,
or can you? Well they haven't made a Hallmark movie
about that yet, so I don't know. Well, we could
be original, we could be trailblazers. Yes, we'll get to work.
We've got a couple of days throwing together in Christmas ball.

(33:42):
You're all invited. Yes, what will we do for orders? Though? Popcorn?
You can't have popcorn at a Christmas ball. Aye. But
this is how I impressed people is I provide food
that is um, both well loved and not typically seen
as a rich, fancy thing. Pigs and a blanket are

(34:03):
a way better for the susstance than popcorn does thrown
that out there can have both. Yeah, we have some
more tropes to dive into, but first we have a
quick break for a word from our sponsor and we're back.

(34:25):
Thank you sponsor. Well, another trip that I wanted to
talk about is all I want for Christmas is a man?
Oh yes, yeah? Um. And I I am someone who's
not really into romance in movies are in life? I
don't really like romantic movies. Um, I'm not into romance
in life. Which were past people updated it has proved

(34:49):
very difficult for them, but I do. I get really
tired of seeing this story over and over again. And
not to mention that I shave at the idea that
a woman's value you is defined on whether or not
a man has deemed her valuable. Um. And recently I
was doing my viewing of that premiere Christmas movie die Hard.

(35:13):
Much debate about whether it's a Christmas movie, but for
this will podcast. Let it into the conversation. I was
a little annoyed at how annoyed Bruce Willis's character John
McClain was that his wife Holly, which I just got
doing a research Holly Christmas Holly Um was going by

(35:34):
her last name now and not his um. They were
separated and they were heading towards divorce, and how she
was semi villainized for taking a step up in her
career and moving the family to l a And I
might be reading way too much into it, but I
feel like you're meant to side with John McClean, who

(35:57):
wanted to stay in New York and do we is
cup thing as opposed to her, got like this opportunity,
like a promotion in l a UM and she took it.
And he even says in there something like I wasn't
supportive and I should have been. I'm like, yeah, maybe,
I mean yeah, Well, I mean she's her. She's punished

(36:20):
for doing that. I mean, the tower gets invaded, Hans
Gruber is going to kill her. Yeah, I mean she's
punished for, you know, taking this job, because if she hadn't,
she wouldn't be in that situation, right, And in the beginning, Um,
when John arrives at this holiday Christmas party at his

(36:42):
ex wife separated significant other at her office. Um, this
jerk that works with Holly kind of immediately it's like
show him the watch, show him the watch, and she's like, no, no,
that's okay. Um. And she had received this very nice,
defensive Rolex watch for doing a good job at work,

(37:05):
for like helping this deal happen. Um. And I mean
I wouldn't really want to show off my Rolex watch either.
That's just not the type of person I know. But
in the end, UM, and I'm going to issue a
spoiler alert, but this movie has been out for a while,
so I've completely spoiled pretty much everyone. Like people couldn't

(37:31):
figure it out based on all these tropes that we're
talking about. Um, but Holly is hanging outside of a
window that's about thirties stories up and Alan Rickman's character,
Hans Gruber, he is holding onto her like the only
thing keeping him from falling to his death is by
holding onto her and her Rolex watch. And the way

(37:52):
that John saves her is he unbuckles to watch and
it falls alongside Hans Hans to his death. I'm I
mean to watch this broke um. Yeah. But then in
this like happy wrap up moment, Holly clarifies when someone
asked that her name is Holly McLean, going back to
her husband's last name, and it read the whole thing

(38:12):
read to me like she learned her lesson from this
venture on focusing on her career um, which again I
can see how it gets twisted of like getting too
wrapped up in your career, but it didn't feel like that.
It felt like no, I mean I didn't really see
like the indications of that from her. I think she

(38:35):
was truly just punished because she made a decision for
her family based on her career and not her husband's.
Is what I ultimately think that sort of dynamic was about,
because I mean, it wasn't shown that like the kids
were neglected or anything by her. In fact, I might
be misremembering, but I feel like she was the primary

(38:56):
childcare provider anyway. Yeah, been working this like very nice career,
so I mean, in the interest of the kids, it
probably was better that they went with her. Yeah, And um,
I don't we've done an episode before on women um
taking her husband's last name and all the stuff around

(39:18):
that if she wants to take kids last name, like,
I have no problem with that. Um, But it felt
more like the messaging was she was she was shown
the air in her ways by putting her and what
she thought was best for a family first, and so

(39:41):
was pivoting back to be on John mcclean's side. Um,
and that and that the whole thing that she's being
unreasonable for using her her maiden name, which I have
such a problem with that term, but for her maiden
name in the first place when they are separated. Yeah,
Like I think it's it's just another thing where it's

(40:03):
like John McClain didn't want the divorce, didn't want the separation,
so how dare she takes steps that he didn't agree with?
And Um, some people did read the whole watch thing
as an anti capitalist message, which I think it can
be both. I mean I could, I could see that,

(40:25):
but I feel like they they just made such a
big deal about it. Yeah, you know, I think you
could interpret it that way. I personally don't really see
it that way, but you know, to each his own. Um,
But it is either way, it is very The watch
is very symbolic and like when he owned buccles it
at the end, this was I don't watch die Hard

(40:48):
every year, so it's been a while since I've seen it,
especially since I think I started working on this show
and started looking at things more critically. I still liked
the movie, but I was kind of, oh, oh, I know,
I feel like that every time we watch a movie
together and you're just like pointing these things out to me,
I'm like, I don't think I would have noticed this
totally right. Yeah, And I've said it before on this show.

(41:13):
I'll say it again, but I think you can have
a critical eye towards something and still like it, Like
I like Diehard. I think we can make better things.
You know you can. I think it's good to be
able to pick up on the messaging you see maybe
you don't even realize. I know, I think that's I mean,
I've already kind of mentioned and that I don't watch

(41:34):
nearly as many holiday movies like Hallmark Holiday movies as
I used to, because you know, it does get annoying
that women are basically told your career isn't what makes
you happy, or you know, some of them they've had
it where a career woman is unhappy with her life
and she makes a wish and suddenly she's like transported

(41:56):
back like ten years into the past, like catch the
one that Got Away. And then you know, at the end,
she's shown with children, and she's so much more happy
and fulfilled than she was when she just had her career,
you know. I mean, so, I don't know if it's
because I'm more aware of such things or I'm just
like just the climate we're in politically now or what

(42:18):
it is, but it's like those things bother me when
they used to not. Yeah, and like I said, as
someone who is not into romance, um, I really internalized
seeing this story play out over and over again that
to be successful, to be happy, you needed to find
the man. Because these are all very heterosexual stories we're

(42:40):
talking about. Yeah, yeah, you know, I think it doesn't
allow a woman to be happy without a man. I
completely agree about that. And and a lot of them,
you know, where the main character has kind of sworn
off men. She just got out of a bad relationship

(43:02):
or you know, her parents had a difficult marriage and
she doesn't want to do that that kind of thing. Well,
her friends, her little group, are focused on you just
need to find someone you'll find someone, and so it's
like you've got the trope of the woman who's not
looking for it but suddenly finds the love of her life.
But you also kind of have another trope where this

(43:24):
woman is so busy looking for it she misses what's
right in front of her, where it's like her best
friend or you know, a new acquaintance, where she's she's
seen some man that she's just like instantly attracted to,
and so she doesn't see the other guy that's ultimately
better for her and they're going to wind up together.
So yeah, I mean, it's it's not like a single

(43:45):
lady's finding happiness in their own life. No, And I
hadn't realized until working on this show how much I
internalized the messaging that you are incomplete. You cannot be
happy until you accomplish this family unit. Yes, I mean

(44:08):
I think that that that messaging shows up in so
many other places, and I think that's why I, like
I said, I didn't notice it for so long, but yeah,
and then I started seeing it. I'm just like, oh,
I don't want to I don't want to have another
movie where someone who is probably seems happy at the
beginning of the movie. At least, the career driven woman

(44:29):
typically is you know, stressed out but like living her
life and then to just say, oh, now I found
this man, and she always finds a man, like she
might fall in love with the small town she's in
as well and all the people, but without that romantic component,
she probably wouldn't stay because you know, the end scene

(44:49):
is typically of them realizing that she's going to stay,
and then they're kissing, and you know it culminates with them,
you know, sealing the fact that they're in a relationship. Yeah. Yeah,
And it's just I read a lot of accounts of people,

(45:10):
um who we were talking about what how difficult it
can be during the holidays if you are single. Yeah,
and um yeah for me for a long time, my
family is mostly given up. But it was always this
question of when are you going to settle down? That's
what people are asking to Like your your time is running, Yeah,

(45:31):
that old biological kicking, um, like you've had your fun,
but you're it's time for you. Like I've literally had
it put that way to me before, Like you've had
your fun times, you need to settle down, As if
getting married and having kids is not being fun at all. Yeah,
I know. And it's like that pressure is place more

(45:53):
on women than on men. I mean, there are the
elements in some holiday movies where it's like the playboy
rich guy who meets the right woman and decides he
is a wants to be committed, there's more to life
than partying, that kind of thing. But you know, I
mean the onus is generally on women, like you just

(46:15):
care too much about your career. You don't have time
for kids with your career, you don't make time for men.
How do you think you're ever going to be in
a relationship, And not to say that like there isn't
a balancing act, like when you've got a job and
you're in a relationship. I mean, of course those issues
are going to come up, but it's demonized. It's demonized

(46:36):
so much, and that that's very frustrating as a woman
watching it and you're just like, and generally the woman
is the one making the sacrifices for people to be together.
You know, career woman comes to the small town, saves something. Well,
holiday hunk isn't moving to the back to the city
with her. You know, she is going to stay in

(46:57):
a small town they're not. There's not discussions of how
are we going to split our time between the city
for my career and then the small town for your
for like the idealized life we're going to have here.
You know, it's she's making the sacrifices. Yeah. Um. And
again this isn't limited at all by any means to
holiday movies. I was thinking of like Gone Girl when

(47:19):
she gets so frustrated because they have to move back
to this like tiny town, small town in Missouri, a
small world town. Yeah. And again like if that's for you,
that's for you. But just to like it is a
big change. And if you're used to the city, if
you like the city, um, it's not always like you
go to a small town and oh um yeah. I

(47:42):
mean it's like you know, as I said, with both
of us being from small towns, I mean there's there's
things in cities that you like. I mean, variety of food.
I like Uber and Lift, not none of that where
I'm from. Delivery at three am. Yeah. I was like
when I was living in Chicago and I was like,
they're going to bring me a giant pizza to my door? Yeah,

(48:05):
And I was like, this is one of the most
amazing things that's ever happened to me. Not that you
can't get pizza delivered in my hometown, but I mean
it was deep dish, just tons of cheese deliciousness. So yeah,
and I do um when I go and visit my hometown.
There are things that I love about it too. Um.

(48:26):
I think it's more just that the kind of broad
broad strokes of this one is clearly the better one.
I think that's what I have a problem with. Yeah,
I mean, and that is one of the things that
I really did want to talk about, is like the
in the idealization of the small town, there aren't a

(48:47):
lot of people of color. There's very little LGBTQ representation,
if any, I mean, and typically if there is, you know,
a queer character, they don't have her relationship. They're they're
very one dimensional. They're here to help you get dressed,
you know, they're not They're not full fledged characters, which

(49:07):
means you can say that for almost any character in
a holiday movie. But it's just even more glaring. And
you know, for years and years and years on Hallmark
there was not a single movie where any of the
main like romantic characters were people of color. Yeah, and

(49:28):
I think you said now that there's like one out
of their twenty two this year actually has people of color.
And it's like I watched an ion Um television movie
the other day that actually had an interracial couple. Yeah,
and so I was like, actually kind of surprised to
see that. I mean pleasantly surprised. Um, but because you

(49:49):
just you don't see those things. And you know, I
have not seen any holiday movies where the main romantic
characters are queer. Yeah, and I would love to see
I would would be so refreshing. Yeah, I mean, and
there I think there's like a lot of people who
would want to watch that movie, just maybe not Hallmarks
target audience. You know. So maybe this is a place

(50:11):
where Netflix and places like that can you know, bring
some differences to these rather formulaic movies. Yeah, they can
lead the way, but I'd love to see like Hallmark
slowly because then the target audience who might not be
used to seeing these things, it might be a little
um not on board with them saying yeah, yeah, Hallmark

(50:36):
is changing. And the fact that a lot of the
secondary characters, well not a lot, but more than they're
used to be, and a lot of the like background
characters at the scene of this lodge or whatever are
people of color. But you almost get the sense that
maybe it's tokenism because it's like they know, it's like, oh,
we gotta put a black person in here, because they're
going to accuse us of being a racist. Like, well,

(50:58):
you've had like ten plus years of just only white
people in your movies though in your many, many, many movies. Yes,
I mean it's not like they're lacking opportunities to hire people.
Like I said, twenty two new movies this season alone,
they started October. They yeah, they were ready to go.

(51:19):
Alloween did not even happen yet. No, they're on the
Christmas Train, which I'm sure is of a Christmas movie,
The Christmas Train. It was the World. Their signature or
featured Hallmark movie of the season last year was The
Christmas Train. There you go. There's a movie for everything. Yes,
starring Danny Glover, Dermott mulroney, um Joan Cusack. Interesting cast. Yeah,

(51:47):
I mean they put their big books into their life
signature feature movies. Yes, and Kimberly Paisley I think. Anyway, Yeah,
they got some disable people in these In this movie.
I was like, oh my goodness, it was not a
good movie. I watched it. It was not great, but
there was a train and it was Christmas time, so

(52:09):
I guess I can't be too upset. The title was
very specific. It was spot on in this case, um
to bring it back to your die hard before we
move on. It was interesting because that movie takes place
in the early nineties, and um, it does have people
of color in it, but they feel very caricatured and

(52:30):
like it's playing on stereotypes of her boss is like
Mr Not could tell me, I think Japanese businessman. Japanese businessman, um,
which offense to Japanese businessman? Get it? But no, but
it felt very like one dimensional, not thought out. Died
very early in the movie too, did pretty violently if

(52:52):
I recall correctly. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um. And then
there's so Holly as a nanny to take care of
her kids, and she's Hispanic, and of course she's undocumented.
That's a whole plot point in the movie. And then
there's two black characters, and yeah, they just feel kind

(53:15):
of like they're playing on stereotypes. I will say the
one that's played by Fred Winslow from Family matters. Yeah,
I was like I say, I'm like I liked his
character because he was like the smartest cop on the ground.
Nobody would listen to him, I know, and that and
like maybe that is also something to do with his race.
I don't know, but I'm like he was the only
one that knew what was going on. Yeah. Um, but

(53:38):
his and this this could honestly be a critic of
the whole movie, but his story did feel very like
not as fleshed out as it could have been. It
felt very what's the word, not trite, but like, what's
the thing that we can play with the heart strings? Oh?
This I don't know, um, but it This is definitely

(54:02):
an area where all of our entertainment could improve, but
especially it seems especially apparent in the holiday movie genre.
There is like I would say, particularly Hallmark, like Lifetime
and I on television are a little bit more adventurous.
I don't know if I you should even call that adventurous,
but like they're not just playing white you know. It's

(54:25):
like they have interracial movies or movies that feature like
black cast, which is which is really great to see.
I I enjoy those movies as much as I enjoy
any holiday movie. I mean, I don't. I don't think
it's a big deal, but I I you know, I
do think it would be nice if, you know, Hallmark
normalized some things, yes, um, particularly like I'm imagine their

(54:49):
audiences at least based on the commercials that I see,
a lot of them have dogs and heart problems because
they're always like, get this product for your dog or
thing for your heart, and so you're like, it's a
little maybe I'm stereotyping, but that's what their their commercials
leads me to believe. So they're older, probably more conservative people.

(55:11):
And I do think, like you know, just seeing things
in media and normalizing them is a big part of change,
you know. And I would like for these, you know,
movies to be more on the forefront than the afterthought
where they're like, oh yeah, more people are okay with
like black people in their holiday movies. I guess we'll

(55:32):
throw a few in, like, you know, like make the
effort to show things how they are, not because you
feel pressure from someone being like why is everybody white?
But because you want to show these things. Yeah, and
just for having reflect life, yeah, and a new story,
different thing, something new. Um. Before we move on some

(55:58):
Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer. Um. Okay, So this film
that the puppet one was recently named the most popular
Christmas movie, and it was also called out as sexist,
and the conservatives were like, look what the liberals are
ruining now. And I will say, I watched this like
a couple of nights ago. I think it's totally sexist.
But it is very sex It's very sexist, but in

(56:21):
a way that I can mostly ignore or excuse for
the time. And I mean it was always it's always
beneficial to like have a conversation with children about the
entertainment Um they're they're consuming. I think that's where the
problem comes in. Um. But to me it was kind

(56:42):
of like, yeah, sexist, um. And I the thing that
really stood out more was how terrible people were to
him to route off. I know, I'm like, Santa is
evil in that movie. I'm like, he's he's racist. Yeah,
he's like, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with your face?
I did cover that up? I know. It's like and

(57:03):
it's like, how dare his father like bring him out?
Why isn't his father ashamed of him? He should be
ashamed of him, and you're just like, Santa is supposed
to be nice, but he's really he's really not at
all in that movie. And then I noticed even when
I was a kid, I was like, Santa, it's a
jerk to root off, like you should crash that sleig. Um. Yeah,

(57:27):
I mean I'm always a proponent of media literacy, knowing
the messages in your in the media you consume, and
especially at a young age, because we do internalize that
stuff very young. Yeah, and I definitely think that, Like,
you know, parents just want to put like a movie
on for their kids at the holidays, and it's like
I watched this when I was a kid, but you know,

(57:48):
give those things a rewatch. You're going to pick up
on a lot of things you don't remember, and you know,
maybe it isn't exactly what you want your kid to see,
or you do want them to see it, but you
want to talk to them about on it. Yes, yes,
I think that is great bro watching children's movies just
in general, but do it with a purpose. Yeah, yes,

(58:08):
be responsible in your viewership. Um. So we have a
little bit more for you, But first we have a
quick break for word from our sponsor M and we're back,
Thank you sponsor, and we're back with a brief thing

(58:31):
about Christmas songs, holiday songs, and there is one really
big one we have to talk about, and that is
Baby It's Cold Outside. Babe It's Cold Outside is a
song written by Frank loser In and it was a
parlor act he performed with his wife Lynn Garland. It
won an Academy Award in after Frank sold the rights

(58:52):
to MGM, much to Land's horror. It sounds like he
didn't really consult her about it, and it was featured
in the film Neptunes Otter. Though there's no direct mention
of Christmas and the lyrics, it has become associated with
the holiday because it's all about winter and staying warm
or is it um So. It's a duet popularly sung

(59:15):
by a man and a woman in a call and
response form where the man is attempting to convince the
woman to stay at his house instead of going home,
and she's like getting ready to leave. He's trying to
get her to stay. And in the score, the male
part or the part that's typically played by the male
is labeled wolf and the female part of the part
that's typically played by the female is labeled mouse, and

(59:37):
it's really hard to ignore the predator pray aspect of that. Um.
And it has become a lightning rod for controversy due
to the lyrics like this one where the mouse asked,
say what's in this drink? Yeah, and the wolf's unrelenting
pressure and unwillingness to take no for an answer. I

(59:59):
know people have counted how many times she says no
and he keeps saying, come on, don't embarrass me, don't
hurt my pride, like please. Yeah. Um, And by today's standards,
the whole thing does feel very date rapeated. It's hard,
at least for me, and I think for a lot
of people not to hear that. Yeah. Like when I
when I listened to the lyrics or I saw them

(01:00:21):
written out I think a few years ago, and I
was like, oh my god, I've listened to this so
many times just because you know, inescapable. Yeah, but it's like, yeah,
would you would you really start paying attention? You're like,
oh my goodness, like this woman might be in danger? Yeah,
kind of menacing, I know. It's like, actually she is
in danger? Is the modern ear? Here's that? Yeah? For sure? Yeah?

(01:00:44):
And um, for what it's worth. In Neptune's Daughter, the
movie that it was featured in, the song was performed
twice and it swapped the gender roles. Some feminists and
scholars have come to defense of the song, saying that
we need to consider the historical and cultural context and
the time it was written, and they note that all

(01:01:04):
of the mouse's excuses are based on other people. What
will her and again it's mostly a woman, but does
it doesn't specify that has to be um? But what
will her mother, father, brother, neighbors think? And that she
truly does want to say the night and she's looking
for an excuse to say the night? And a professor
at the University of Massachusetts Boston wrote about the song

(01:01:26):
and points out that at the time it was written
to World War two, social norms were changing rapidly and
women were experiencing more sexual freedom, and in that context, yeah,
I I suppose you could read it that way. According
to music historian Thomas Reeves, when the song came out,
it was scandalous for a woman to be alone with
a man drinking, and her primary concern would be being

(01:01:49):
judged by those around her and her reputation getting ruined.
Perhaps being able to say it wasn't safe for me
to drive because there wasn't really taxis or a lift
back then would be a way that she could protect reputation.
And I get that, but sure not. It is dangerously
close to rape culture. No means yes. Yeah, I completely agree,

(01:02:15):
and that is why it's uncomfortable. And it's like, clearly
our society is still struggling with that what does no mean?
I mean as a woman, where like no means no
means no, but there's there's confusion. I use heavy quotes,
and it's like we were saying, if you're going to
like let your kids listen to this song, you need

(01:02:36):
to explain this. Yeah, and you need to explain to
them like no means no, like boys and girls, because
you don't end rape culture with only one gender learning.
Everybody needs to learn. And it's like, you know, if
you find the song uncomfortable, I completely understand why if

(01:02:57):
you want to keep listening to it and knowing the
con text because context is very important, good for you,
you know, But I mean, it shouldn't just be something
that we just listened to because it's it's been on
the radio for like our whole lives. You know, it's
it's representative of a lot of things, Like I said

(01:03:18):
that our culture is still really struggling with and you
know at that kind of attitude also shows up in
a lot of Hallmark movies, to be honest, where it's
like the male and female characters hate each other, but
then they're slowly thrown together by circumstances and like he
wears her down or something like that, and it's like that,

(01:03:39):
that's creepy, that's weird, and it's romanticized. It is. I mean,
even going back to the workaholic Dad where he hires
this woman to take care of his kids while they
become an item. But what if she the attraction wasn't
mutual your employer. It's hitting on you, you know. I
mean there's just so many layers to these things, and

(01:04:02):
it's like they show you the most simplified, happy, clean
version of it. Yeah, and you know that's what we
want from our Hallmark holiday movies. So it's like, you know,
I don't expect them to be like and this was
the Christmas we discussed rape. You know, it's just more
things to be aware of. And it's like, unfortunately, these

(01:04:22):
like silly entertainment things. There's so much more to them
than we than any of us want to think about. Yeah,
And I mean there's certain aspects of society that we
see reflected that we don't want to be more taken
more critical eye too. And I know a lot of people, Um,
we've talked about this a lot on this show of

(01:04:42):
people point to all of this conversation around baby it's
called outside and say, you're ruining flirtation, like you're you're
making it impossible from romance happen. And I think what
you're saying is you're making it impossible for me to
just pursue like and non consensual like it was romanticized.

(01:05:04):
It was okay, it was flirty, right, that's not romantic
for one person involved. Oh, I know. It's like I
hate that argument where it's like, well, how could a
woman and a man in a business situation never be
alone together because like she could claim harassment. I'm like,
that's I get, there's like very rare cases where that
might happen, but that's not what's generally going on. And

(01:05:27):
generally women aren't playing hard to get They really just
want to be left alone. And it's it's scary and disturbing,
and that that's so hard to explain to like male
friends or male family members, just being like, how how
scary it could be to walk down a street and
have people yell at you? Oh yeah, when um. I

(01:05:50):
remember explaining to my dad once about, uh, how when
someone would come up to me, a guy at a
bar or something would come up and ask like, oh,
you know, can I have your number? Let's go dance
or whatever, And I would say no, and I would
tense immediately because I know what's coming. I'm gonna get

(01:06:12):
yelled at for basically just minding my own business and
wanting to be left alone. Yeah. I mean, another thing
specifically about baby It's cold outside, is that it's on
the woman that her reputation would be damaged. It's on
her to repeatedly say no, you don't. You can't just

(01:06:37):
say it be one and done right, you know. And
then I think this kind of song also speaks to
another thing that I really see about our society that
bothers me is that the woman is supposed to be
in control of two people's actions. You know. It's the
thing that goes back like, well, what were you wearing
that night? I'm like, so it's like, because you decided

(01:07:00):
to wear something, you are somehow responsible for another human
being's actions, you know, I mean. And it's like, I
think there's an element of that into the song on
either interpretation, if you're saying like, this is what it
meant at the time versus how it sounds now like
the onus is on the woman to be protecting her

(01:07:21):
reputation to not be seen as a loose woman, you know.
And it's just other stuff that I don't think men
have to consider very much because it's it's boys will
be boys, which I've I've always hated that phrase too,
because it implies that men don't have self control, that
they're there they are a weak gender, that they can't

(01:07:43):
control their actions, which I think if I was a man,
i'd be offended by. I think I would like to
hope most men, especially people listening to the show, are
offended by it. Um. Yeah, it is interesting to how
like the maleness has typically been associated with strange and
yet that is a very weak thing to say it like,
you have no control, I know. And I'm like, that's

(01:08:06):
why I find it so bizarre. It's like you can't
have it both ways, but our society seems to think
it's completely acceptable. I'm like, it's just not logical. You're
saying different things, but just so it makes you feel better.
And I think that's like what's annoying about people who

(01:08:26):
are saying, like, oh, the liberals are ruining this thing. Now.
It's like, just because you don't want to think about
something and you don't want to have to evaluate how
you live your life doesn't mean that they're ruining something.
You know, it's they're not the same thing. And yeah,
it's it's difficult. It's hard to examine the things you

(01:08:46):
like in the media, you consume, in the opinions you have,
like in the deepest, darkest recesses of your mind that
you don't want to admit to other people. Like, you know,
it's hard, it's not comfortable, but we need to do it.
Everyone needs to do it. Like you need to think
about what you're consuming, yes, and then how that affects
what you put out into the world. It comfortable with

(01:09:08):
being uncomfortable, yes, um. And I will say to anyone
who's listening to this, and it's like, oh, I love
babies call outside. Uh yeah, I mean we're not so catchy,
it is, oh my gosh. And again, as long as
you're kind of aware and I think, yeah, yeah, just
aware of why it can be seen as problematic and

(01:09:32):
why some people really have a problem with it, then um,
more power to you. Yeah. And just like, don't be
rude to people like might be offended by it, just
if they're like, oh I don't like the song, can
we change it? Just just change Really not that big
of a deal, no, um, And it is a very
popular song, I believe as of recording this, there's over

(01:09:53):
eighty uh different people have made a cover of Baby
It's pulled outside um and November, one radio station in Cleveland, Ohio,
band of the song. Several Canadian broadcasters followed suit, including
CBC Radio, while another radio station in Kentucky played it
NonStop for the opposite reason. Why would anyone want to

(01:10:15):
hear a song NonStop? One thing? But okay, um, they
gotta prove a point. Yeah, what an annoying point? How
annoyingly done. When these stations that banned the song surveyed
their listenership though about whether or not they should reinstate it,
an overwhelming majority in all cases supported putting it back

(01:10:36):
in rotation. Um, but we're not the only ones that
have had this interpretation at all. You probably didn't think that,
But just to be clear, in Key and Peel parody
the song, and Funny or Die did the same with
the mouse hitting on the wolf, hitting it literally over
the head with a shovel and shouting this is completely

(01:10:57):
this is a completely inappropriate song. And SNL also period
to perioded in with Keenan Thompson impersonating Bill Cosby. Yeah,
that's not an association you want anymore with a Christmas song,
for sure, no UM or at all. No UM. But

(01:11:17):
despite this, or maybe because of it, Baby It's Cold
Outside is doing better than ever. Sales are going up,
digital sales growing up, not down. UM. There's a version
with updated lyrics that I really dig most UM. I
don't want to say conservative, but you know, people that
are angry about this whole thing, they really don't dig it.
But I liked it UM by Lydia Lisa and Josia

(01:11:39):
Lamancy called Baby I'm cool with that um and there
The proceeds of the song go to organizations focused on
providing help to survivors of sexual violence and UM. Whether
or not you think the original version needed an update.
I think it's still fun, like I can hear baby
it's cold outside, and if I don't pay too much
attention to it, it is catchy. It's when I started

(01:12:01):
listening to the lyrics that I get a kind of
like mm hmmm um. But I really liked Babe. I'm
cool with that because it's basically like I really can't
stay and he's like, maybe I'm cool with that. If
we're going to keep recording it, Yeah, let's mix it up,
So that's fair. Yeah, because they I mean, like right
this year, I think two versions were recorded. Let's let's
see something different, or we can I mean, you know,

(01:12:24):
we could give rid of it all together. I don't
think that will ever happen. But no, and I didn't
necessarily say that that should happen because I think, you know,
you shouldn't glorify things that happened in the past, but
you should be aware of them. Yeah, you know, and
it's like our culture has roots and what happened and
like at the time this song was recorded, you know,

(01:12:46):
I mean, it's like you can't completely ignore it. But
ignoring and glorifying are very different things, which I think
is also been a source of confusion for some people
in our society. I would agree. Um, so we have
to on role mentions that I don't really want to
get into, but they do come up in terms of
sexism and holiday songs and want to Santa Baby, which

(01:13:08):
is pretty much about a woman or how people some
people read it. It's pretty much about a woman trying
to seduce Santa for gifts. Um. And then I saw
Mommy kissing Santa Claus, which also comes under fire for
being sexist. Um, So your listeners, can you can think
about that one? Um? That brings us to the end

(01:13:31):
of this our bonus holiday deep dive. Not trying to
ruin your media, but be more I know it's like
cognizant of what consumer like. Maybe just listen to this
after the holidays, after you've watched all the movies. You
can think about it for next year. That should have
been at the beginning of the podcast. Adding a disclaimer,
I'm someone who like as long as it's not outright terrible,

(01:13:54):
I'll just point out a thing and I'll still enjoy
a movie like I've been planning, um, A a feminist
alien series Night Forever where I'm just gonna I've already
told my friends deal with it. I'm going to point
out all this Over're watching it, and I'm gonna have
a wonderful time. Um. But yeah, who, whatever you celebrate,
we hope that you're having a happy and um safe, RESTful,

(01:14:22):
relaxing holiday or if you're of any sort, are getting
prepared for the new year, the upcoming new year. UM,
thank you so much for joining us today. Okay, well,
thank you for having me. This is definitely a new
experience for me, but it was nice. Thank you, yes,

(01:14:43):
um and listeners. If you have any thoughts on anything,
any holiday movies, songs, or anything else, you can email
us at mom Stuff at haste works dot com. You
can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
and on Instagram at stuff One Never told You. Thanks
as always to reproduce Sir Andrew Howard and fix you listening.

(01:15:06):
M H.