July 20, 2022 • 34 mins
The very public defamation trial of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp has showcased how we view women in and out of the courtroom. We break down what happened, why it's important and what it means for the future.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I'd welcome to stuff
I never told you production of I Heart Radio. All right,
So we're gonna start this one with content warning right
at the top because we're going to be discussing abuse,
a domestic abuse, specifically trauma and me too. Though nothing
(00:27):
at two in depth. Um, and this one is very
complicated and constantly changing, So time stamp. We are recording
this July two, and I believe it's going to be
at least a week before it comes out, and possibly
more so a lot could change, Like this morning, I
woke up, we're talking about the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial.
I woke up this morning and because I've been researching this,
(00:49):
my phone was like new updates Yeah, okay, which I
did include, But at the point being, and it is
changing a lot, right, Yeah, There's a lot of opinions
out there, and it's a lot of back and forth.
And we will say both Annie and I have been
deliberately staying away from commentating on it because there's a
(01:11):
lot of uncertainty and with sensitive cases like this, especially
in the field like hours, we want to make sure
we are not speaking out too quickly when it shouldn't
be so not that people care our opinions, but I
know it could be like this is a big deal,
why are you talking about it? Type of conversation, And
it's kind of one of those like we want to
wait and see what's happening, and there's a lot to
(01:33):
factor in, and we also need to know how sensitive
and how this can affect UH policy around the world,
which it has. But we'll keep going. Yes, I mean,
it is extremely complicated, and mostly we're going to be
focusing on sort of the fallout of this and why
it's so complicated. But yeah, one last note. We are
not lawyers, UM. We're just going to explain what happens, um,
(01:58):
and why has had an impact already in the world
of me too, and what it means for the future,
what could mean for the future. Okay, so, yes, we're
talking about this trial between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.
But let's start with some basics, UM. So Heard in
depth first met on the set of The Rum Diary
in two thousand nine. Um. She is over twenty years
(02:21):
younger than him, UM, and so she was on like
the rise in her career, but he was already well
known to the American people at this time. Um, something
that is certainly at play in this whole thing where
he'd come back to that. Um. They started dating in
twelve and got married in ten. Heard filed for divorce.
Days later. She requested and received a restraining order against
(02:44):
Depth due to domestic violence. Um. Depth lawyer accused her
of trying to get more money from Depth. She did
receive a seven million dollar settlement, but donated it to
the a c l U and the Children's Hospital of
Los Angeles, though recently has come to light that not
all of it, perhaps five hundred thousand of it came
from Elon Musk, whom she briefly dated after Depth. Again,
(03:07):
new information all the time coming out, but the a
COLU has released a statement about that that you can
check out. Okay, so this isn't the first time we've
seen herd in Depth in court. A couple of years ago,
Depth lost a UK libel case against the Sun when
HERD provided evidence in support of the publications claims that
Depp beat her. They called him a wife beater. Um.
Even though historically the odds were against her like this
(03:30):
was a really difficult case for her to win in
the UK. Specifically and again that's the legal thing that
are at about. I trust the experts when they say it,
but I am not an expert. Yes um. In light
of this evidence, twelve of the fourteen instances of domestic
violence against her was proven to have taken place, or
the judge believed this was proof enough to prove that
(03:52):
they had taken place, and Judge Justice Nicol ruled that
The Sun's article about Depth was quote substantially true, and
further that she proved that coming forward against Depth quote
had a negative effect on her career as an actor
and activist. The judge dismissed depths claims that she was
a gold digger, saying, quote, her donation of seven million
dollars to charity is hardly the act one would expect
(04:14):
of a gold digger. He cited an email from Depth
that read, I have no mercy, no fear, and not
an ounce of emotion or what I once thought was
lovet for this gold digging, low level dime a dozen mushy,
pointless dangling over used flappy fish market. I can only
hope that Karma kicks in and takes the gift of
breath from her. Sorry man, but now I will stop
(04:34):
at nothing. He also texted actor Paul Bettany, let's drown
her before we burn her. I will her burnt corpse
afterwards to make sure she's dead. Um, the judge said,
quote I accept that she heard was the victim of
sustained and multiple assaults by Mr Depp in Australia. Is
a sign of the depth of his rage that he
(04:54):
admitted scrawling graffiti in blood from his injured finger, and
then when that was into fficient dipping his badly injured
finger and pain and continuing to write messages and other things.
I accept her evidence of the nature of the assaults
he committed against her. They must have been terrifying. I
accept that Mr Depp put her in fear of her life.
A lot of information herd provided was disturbing, including a
(05:17):
force quote cavity search for drugs, and at the time
her lawyer in the US promised even more evidence would
be presented at an upcoming trial here in the States.
So in this case, a Depth suit heard for defamation
for fifty million dollars over an op ed her published
in The Washington Post in eighteen about sexual violence and
in which she never actually mentions depth. Um and her
(05:40):
countersuit for one million. This was a civil suit specifically
tried in Virginia because of the state's libel laws. So
in the op ed headline quote, I spoke up against
sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change,
um and Heard alleged that after she spoke up about
Depth abuse, she was dropped from a movie and a
fashion ad campaign, while Depp got a huge role in
(06:03):
the Fantastic Beast franchise, a role he was asked to
resign from after the Sun case. Um and largely outlets
like TNZ sided with Depth, but some feminist writers were
sounding the alarm. This was happening months before the election
of Donald Trump and a year before the Weinstein accusations
really took off. When they did, more people were suddenly
paying attention to the fact that Herds felt the need
(06:25):
to get a restraining order from her ex husband. And
in eighteen Heard was named an ambassador for women's rights
by the a c l U. And this is when
she wrote that op ed that this whole thing is
about and it was in part in support of the
Violence Against Women's Act, which was dropped by Trump and
picked back up by um Biden. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
(06:46):
and we've talked about that in past episodes. In June,
a jury and Virginia rejected that evidence and more that
had worked in the UK and sided with Depth, even
though most experts thought that Depth's chances of winning the
case were lower than Herds. So what happened A lot
of experts think has to do with the fact that
the case was argued to a jury and the media coverage.
(07:09):
According to international media lawyer Mark Stevens, because the US
trial was before a jury, it allowed Depth's lawyers to
focus on Herd. They deny that their client did anything.
They deny they're the real perpetrator, and they attack the
credibility of the individual calling out the abuse, and then
reverse the rules of the victim and the offender. He
also pointed out that Depth's team was more experienced than
(07:29):
Herds and arguing libel cases. Specifically, Yeah, I think if
you heard any part of the trial it felt that way.
I don't know if you of like, huh. Interesting. So
though the jury reached the verdict that Heard and Depth
defamed each other, they sided far more with Depth, supporting
all three of his defamation claims versus only one of Herds. Uh.
(07:50):
This translated to an award of ten point three five
million dollars for Depth and two million for her. Her
lawyer promised that they would appeal, though hers petition for
a mistrial was just rejected. Yes, I just the news
I woke up to on my phone, right, But okay,
what's going on here? If heard had more evidence, why
did she lose? And yes, I know in a lot
(08:11):
of ways this is unfortunately rhetorical, and I've bet a
lot of you are like, oh, I know it already.
But okay, we've seen it happen over and over again
to women after all, But let's still break down some
of it. A big part of this conversation is a
tactic frequently used by abusers called darvo, with many arguing
at that Depth and his team used this strategy. So
this was first introduced by Dr Jennifer fraide In and
(08:35):
this is a quote about it. Darva refers to reaction
perpetrators of wrongdoing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response
to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVA stands for deny,
attack and reverse victim and offender. The perpetrator or offender
may deny the behavior attack the individual doing the confronting
and reverse the roles of victim and offender, such that
(08:55):
the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true
victim or the whistleblower to an alleged offender. This occurs,
for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role
of falsely accused and attacks the accusers of credibility and
blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of false accusation.
So basically, the perpetrator is trying to make it more
(09:17):
difficult to determine who the quote real victim is, engaging
in behavior like downplaying the injuries of the victim while
exaggerating there's their own, and blaming the victim for the
abuser's actions. Some recent research into DARVO suggests women are
exposed to it more often, it is a purposeful strategy
used by the perpetrator when confronted with the victim, and
(09:39):
that it encourages self blame in the victim guest learning uh.
New research has also found that when people were exposed
to DARVO in case of abuse, they were less likely
to believe the victim. However, with some anti DARVO education,
people found the perpetrator less believable. Some argue Depths entire
(09:59):
case against the Washington Post was a Darvo strategy. Yes, Um,
and there has been a lot of argument about who,
if anyone, is employing Darvo in this particular case that
the consensus seems to be it is Depth. Um. He
has the power in the relationship. He's a powerful man,
he's older, he's richer, he's more famous. Um heard admitted
(10:21):
to hitting Depth and some of their altercations. And for
a lot of folks, that muddied the line between abuse
and abuser, which is a clear cut line that often
doesn't exist in reality, but a lot of people think
that it does. Um. And, of course men can be
and are victims of violence and abuse, but many think
that truth was manipulated for Depth by Depth. The trial
(10:43):
has been used both in good faith to showcase that
men can in fact be victims of abuse UM and
don't report it due to stigma, but also in bad
faith by men's rights activists to drag down feminism as
the great evil that they view it to be. According
to mal magazine, He's try outfits neatly into a tapestry
of claims that men are under attack, woven alongside clumsy
(11:04):
narratives about false rape accusations and mother's lying to block
children from their fathers. Uh. Depth did provide evidence that
she had hit him previously, including an audio recording where
she appears to mock him for trying to put himself
in the place of the victim. She said, you can
tell people it was a fair fight, and then see
what the jury and judge thinks. Tell the world, Johnny,
tell them, Johnny Depp I a man. I'm a victim
(11:26):
too of domestic violence. It's a fair fight. And see
how many people believe or side with you. Well, and
here we are. But um and heard had a previous
incident in two thousand nine where she was arrested for
allegedly striking then girlfriend Tasa van Ree's arm. However, van
Ree came out in support of herd claiming the incident
was blown out of proportion due to misogyny and homophobia.
(11:46):
Uh oh okay, But this rings us to two other
big pieces of this case, the myth of the perfect
victim and how we perceive women in particularly women survivors
in court, which we did discuss in our Trauma Any series, Right, right,
So that's a good listen if you want to reminder,
didn't hear those um, But yeah, we've talked about the
(12:08):
perfect victim narrative before, but this is essentially the what
was she wearing? Was she promiscuous? Actually had some drinks
that bs that we always hear, and it did come
up in this. And that's not saying we should dismiss
what hurt is allegedly done. But the incredibly uneven support
Depth has gotten and the money he received compared to
what heard got um and based on the evidence we
(12:30):
had for both parties, that's I mean, that's pretty telling.
And the discourse seems to be she too did harm,
so everything she says is a lie, even if proof
seems to show that he did harm and most likely
more harm. But because she's not perfect, then it doesn't matter. Right. So,
(13:05):
according to an anonymous juror, Heard wasn't quite believable. And
they go on to say she would answer one question
and she would be crying, and two seconds later she
would turn ice cold. It didn't seem natural. Again, some
of the jurors called used the term crocodile tears for her. Meanwhile,
they said Depth seemed more genuine um. And this also
(13:25):
plays into how we believe survivors should behave and pervasive
rape myths and how we don't understand how trauma looks
or manifest as discussed extensively in our Trauma mini series
and our own experiences in trauma as well, because we
get a lot of comments about, yeah, this is inappropriate. Um.
And it was interesting as they came on to be interviewed,
(13:49):
they just kept saying things like that, I just she
doesn't look like this, or she didn't do like I
thought she should, so therefore she's obviously lying, which is
a whole different conversation because as a person who was
on the stand, why would you want you know, like
it's kind of this back and forth, like what is
a believable person? Like there are signs as such, but
(14:11):
the whole time, you know, as I watched some of
the case, you have amber heard uh looking very inquisitive
or scared, as well as sometimes cold and very like focused,
which could be you know, however they wanted to must
translate that to Johnny Depp looking relaxed, making jokes, smiling,
(14:32):
you know, all those things like is that really more believable?
Who knows? Right? And this was originally going to be
a bigger episode, but there was just so much to
impact with this alone, right, But it got me thinking
about when Dr Christine Placey forward came came forward and
how people picked apart her very in my opinion, professional performance. Um.
(14:55):
And then like, we recently saw Cassie Hutchison and Jamie
six hearings and I saw the same thing where I
feel like women, it's yeah, it's a damned if you do,
damned if you don't. We heard a lot of that
narrative around Hill that you couldn't too, like she's too cold,
she's too it feels like she's calculating. So much of
that is training you get because we get judged for
being emotional, right, So it's yeah, I mean, and I
(15:20):
don't know if this is like a just a stereotype
of what it looks like to be on law shows
or something like the constant law shows are like lawyers
training their clients to be a specific way and most
of the times telling women you don't look sympathetic if
you do this, like specifically, if you're too cold, if
you're too direct, don't do that. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And
(15:43):
I mean I can't say specifically for these women, but
for me that would get my head and then I
would become it would become sort of somewhat of a performance,
which would probably seem unnatural to people watching me. And
it is a performance because you are you try to
prepare for trial. That is the thing I had to
do that when we sat down and we talked about
(16:04):
the questions that we would get if we had like
any of these, and if I was stumbling, then therefore
I would look even more unprofessional. But yeah, it was
the whole thing. I found the whole narrative interesting because
of the way it was cited. Again it was either
she was cold or she had crocodile tears, made fake
tears exactly exactly. I can't when And Yeah, as mentioned, um,
(16:29):
the media really had to impact on this case, and
especially social media perhaps um because it did really capture
the attention of the media and the internet and then
pretty much everybody because of that, Court TV doubled their
daytime ratings when they broadcast the show. Yeah, I said,
show the case. Um, everyone had an opinion on it.
(16:52):
And when asked about the response on social media about
this whole case, Dr Fred said, what we have witnessed
in the US over this case has been an overwhelming
case for Depth on social media. It is like an
anti herd campaign and there has been a lot of darvo.
Every day. During the six week trial, hashtags like justice
for Johnny Depp were trending, and though the jurors were
(17:12):
not supposed to check social media surrounding the case, I mean,
how could they avoid it? Right? It was everywhere and
from team Vogue, they said, But instead of being relegated
to the deep corners of the Internet, your younger siblings
and parents and teachers are equally as likely to catch
an inflammatory TikTok or Facebook post about the trial as
anyone else. TikTok's mocking Herd are all over the app
(17:36):
and SNL even did a skit about the abuse trial
which they were like, what the hell are you doing?
Snl And according to NBC News, as a trial began,
quote posters on Twitter and TikTok have overwhelmingly backed Depth,
with hashtags like justice for Johnny Depp, racking up nearly
three billion views on TikTok. Similar hashtags have been tweeted
thousands of times. Meanwhile, Amber heard it's frequently called a liar,
(17:59):
a old digger, and quote Amber turn very very adult like.
There was also a TikTok trend addressing her that started
with quote, he could have killed you. He had every right. Um.
And even the celebrities got on board on this. It
was a lot more publicly speaking depths name like literally
they were talis about who was on whose side and
(18:20):
which celebrities were liking Post for justice, for depth and
all of these things. It was an interesting, really sad
take of the entire conversation. Um. But again going back
to the reminder, I'm we're gonna come back to this
point that this was about an article that did not
even mention his name. Yes, yes, um. And I don't
(18:43):
know if we made this entirely clear, but Dr Fade,
who had been mentioning throughout who came up with Darvo,
has been interviewed with a lot of this um and
so earlier, and we said, like, I believe it was her.
She she made the case. Like the whole Washington Post
Depth suing them at all was an instance of this,
because he was so angry about what happened in the
(19:09):
UK and what he perceived that to be as his
like reputation. UM. So like this entire case was a
very strategic um kind of instance of abuse. UM, because
it's not easy. We're gonna talk about this later too,
but it's not easy to confront in court your abuser
and talk about this stuff. And it was it was
(19:31):
really ugly in a lot of ways. And speaking of
others have pointed out the toxic fandom kind of aspect
of this whole thing, choosing size, as you say, um,
something called mumification, where just a lot of people on
the Internet are making memes of Amber heard that are
pretty cool. Here's another quote from that article Online, the
(19:51):
controversy has taken on a creepy bent, being streamed means
and opined on from TikTok to TV to Twitter, with
fandoms developing for each side. One screenshot shows the post
calling for viewers to like the post to support Depth
and retweet to support Herd, like it's the super Bowl
or something. Um. And then here's a quote from tech
journalist Ryan Broadwick. Basically, a lot of boring men think
(20:14):
Johnny Depp is cool. Zack Snyder fans think Amber Herd's
issues with depth have impacted the release of DC movies.
Harry Potter adults are mad that Depth was removed from
the Fantastic Beast franchise after he was accused of domestic violence,
and a lot of turns viciously defend anything online about
Harry Potter because of J. K. Rowlings increasingly public transphobia.
Others have pointed out that depth has many roles that
(20:35):
are beloved in comparison to herd, so many people wanted
to see him vindicated because he may have played some
of their favorite characters, right. I mean, that's definitely true,
and the fact that he resigned from Fantastic Beast was
one of the things that he used in the counter
in his suing. But it's interesting to the level of
fandom who would not let this go um and just
(20:58):
about how sexy was, Like the conversation about how sexy
you was, how daddy was it was weird, Like this
is not the moment again, it's kind of the serial
killer vibe. But but I'm not saying he's a serial killer.
I'm not saying the fans are that level. I'm just
saying that, like overall, like it almost made him more
desirable to be in this situation. Yeah, and I mean
(21:22):
the fact that we are going to talk about that
a bit more. But the fact that that even comes
out at all in a case of domestic abuse. But
he's so sexy, Like that's what that is. Like You're like, wait,
what just because so yeah, we'll go on to that.
But yeah, on top of this, there's evidence Depth team
used bots to attack herd online, and conservative outlets have
(21:43):
sided with Depth too, with at least one spending millions
on advertisings against heard Um, and Fox Network is set
to air TMC documentary on the trial called Johnny Versus
Amber From Love to Hate. It's really showcases how we've
turned this into entertainment when real people, in real consequences
for others are involved. Yeah, this whole thing. There's a
(22:06):
big conversation about that fact that we've had previously about disinformation,
misinformation and campaigns where they are smearing people's characters and
this was you specifically to smear heard before the trial
even began. Yeah, And I think that's pretty telling. Like
if they Conservative Network spent millions on an advertising campaign
(22:27):
against her because she's involved in the trial domestic abuse trail,
I mean that's something's messed up with that, something is
off about that when there's a motive behind this, because
there's no real need. This is not like Johnny Depp's
running for president point in time? Is he? Wait? Is he?
(22:47):
And I'm just like, I'll just realize what I just
said and not kind of wondering. Okay. Yeah, So now
we wanted to wrap up with the fallout and implications,
and there are a lot and we're only going to
touch on some of them. But yeah, I think we
could come back and do a whole revisited this one, because,
as we said, what's still happening. So after this, as
it was ongoing and after a lot of people in
(23:08):
the me too space released some statements about it, many
saw the response to this case as a backlash to
the Me too movement and the Believe women hashtag. After
the verdict came down, activists and co founder of the
Me too movement, Toronto Burke, released the statement, the way
in which me too has been co opted and manipulated
(23:29):
during the Johnny Depp versus Amber her Child is a
toxic catastrophe, one of the biggest defamations of the movement
we have ever seen. Right Um and several have pointed
out that depth is the first a list sex sible
to come under fire from Me too and he has
won multiple Oscars and has been People's Sexiest Men Alive
three different times. Basically for decades, our culture has admired
(23:53):
and praised him, and that has primed many to side
with him. People want to believe he's innocent and have
given him far more of the benefit of the doubt.
Is absolutely he kind of was like America's sweetheart as
it as it will, like the sexiest men alive being
Jack Sparrow, Like he became iconic for his caricatures, and uh,
(24:16):
some of them are disturbing, the disturbing characters. Yeah, yeah,
And I mean we've already like, I've already primed as
much as the outcry has been um from these bots
are angry. Men were already primed in court to believe
min like and not to believe women. He already had
(24:36):
the advantage in that sense. But then he has like, yes,
all of these fans, people think he's attractive. He's played
the like favorite characters, like he had all of these
things in his favor right for this, and I do.
I was thinking, I said, I know I've told this
story before, but I wrote an essay about how much
I love Johnny Depp in high school, and now it
makes my stomach urb. I've never been a fan of
(24:59):
John Depth and I'm not really sure why. Uh, but yeah,
he's never been one that I like got my attention.
Um interesting enough, so for me it was just like okay,
So like whatever's okay. Yeah, And we've already seen some
(25:30):
really troubling hints at the future, especially when it comes
to abusers punishing victims for coming forward with defamation cases. Again,
this is already kind of under attack, under like a
Supreme Court level of being able to do civil suits
and defamation suits, not necessarily for the regular person, but
there's a lot coming down on that, and I really
(25:50):
have concerns about what this looks like for possible survivors
in the future. Um. And after this case, Brian Warner
a k a. Marilyn Manson file the defamation case against
Evan Rachel Wood. Uh. And then you can see the
episode we did with bridget about this and don't forget
This entails a traumatizing force interaction between the abuse and
(26:10):
the victim survivor, including reliving past trauma and retelling the
past trauma and then being questioned repeatedly about it until
you start questioning it yourself, and experts warned the amount
of attention to trial God and the outcome is going
to send a message to all survivors, which it already
(26:32):
has and abusers watching um again, this has a lot
of that conversation when we see the backlash gas lighting,
victim blaming, so much more that's already difficult to get
past from jump um and the continued lines that cannot
be swells when people are saying, but there's a lot
of false reports which is completely and absolutely and utterly untrue.
(26:57):
So it is it's definitely caused for a lot of
um were we as well as the fact that yes,
if whatever happens with the Evan and Rachel Wood case,
this conversation talks about being able to speak out in general, um,
even if it isn't based on charging them or getting
them arrested, which is way more difficult. Exactly exactly, UM,
(27:18):
I read a very disturbing quote where somebody was saying,
like essentially of users everywhere like taking notes. Okay, got
it right, and also they should be mentioned apparently Depp
and Warner our friends in real life. Of course. I
saw he released a very hateful song about Amber heard
(27:38):
just a few days ago. Delightful, sounds wonderful. He being
dep I don't know about Warner, but oh, I thought
you meant Warner. I mean, who knows? Keep going okay.
According to Christine im Schwartz, who is the clinic director
at the Jane W. Wilson Family Justice Clinic at the
u J Law School, quote, I promise to you that
(28:00):
in the demographic I work with, there are abusers out
there right now telling victims. I'm going to pull a
dep on you. If you disclose, I will sue you.
It's a power and control threat that now has a
name attached to it. And sociologist Nicole Badera said, imagine
if in trying to talk to all of these people,
someone taking the perpetrator side said to you, if you
keep saying this stuff, he's going to sue you for defamation.
(28:22):
I guarantee you that's happening right now. Our friends and
family are saying to someone accused of sexual violence, you
could sue her. I guarantee you that people are saying
that right now, all across the country. She went on
to say, historically saying that your survivor of domestic violence
is qualified as protected speech, but that the defamation suit
against Amber Heard puts all of that in doubt. And
(28:45):
that's the big conversation is that she wrote an op
ed without truly naming them because he is famous. Because
the case had gone uh into the news, into media,
the people guessed it that she was sued. And that
is not the same thing as saying you're suing for
violence a civil suit because you've caused me stressed. This
was about him trying to get her to publicly be
(29:09):
humiliated so they could he could discredit her in an
op ed that really didn't name him. Yes, it was
about him obviously, come of the generic experience for her
in there in itself. Um, But now this is about
being able to write it not bed right. And and
and we've been talking about this a lot recently actually,
and I think some of the episodes haven't come out yet,
(29:31):
but we've been talking a lot about you know, celebrities
are people, So we've we've actually been talking about this
a lot lately. Celebrities are people, and just because your
celebrity doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from writing an
op ed about an experience you had. But it also
was terrifying because she's as celebrity right, and it went
(29:51):
this way. She has more resources, She has more resources
and able to defend herself. And then it went this
way anyway, because exactly it comes down to is whoever
has the most money most likely will win. Yeah, it
seems it seems yeah yeah. And experts have said that
this is a bleak reminder of a system that does
not offer our equal protections. Herd lawyer said the result
(30:14):
of the case sends a quote terrible message to women,
and that Herd told her she felt she had let
down women. Um here's a quote from her I'm heartbroken
that the amountain of evidence still was not enough to
stand up to the disproportionate power, influence and sway of
my ex husband. I'm even more disappointed with what this
verdict means for other women. It is a setback. It
sets back the clock to a time when a woman
(30:35):
who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly shamed
and humiliated. It sets back the idea that violence against
women is to be taken seriously. And going back to
Dr Freyde, she said, of all this, others who wish
to make claims will see what happened in this case
and see what has happened to her, and think twice
many will be afraid to talk, and many already are
afraid to talk. And again we're not talking about the
(31:00):
actual what happened between Heard and Depth. There is evidence
that they were toxic and abusive to each other. Um.
But this conversation is the bigger play about Yes, there's
a power, there is a way of wielding that power,
as well as the fact that it's silencing from people
speaking up. Um. But we know that Johnny Depp was
(31:22):
not quite either. Obviously when he went for the Sun
and trying to sue and all of that, he wasn't
being quiet, uh, and he was telling people as well
as letting people know on a professional level what was happening.
So I feel like again, like there was this back
and forth which both of them it was true. Ambery
(31:42):
Heard also lost opportunities as well, but maybe not as
much as he did because he was already a bigger
actor who was already eating more money and had more
power in the industry anyway, So there's this whole level
of conversation of like, sure it impacted Johnny Depp, but
it impacted her as well. Like again, it's kind of
same narrative of that gold digger trope, being like she
(32:03):
was making money and it was easy for her to
do this. Um, any survivor of domestic moments will tell
you this is not something that gives you favor, right, right,
And I was thinking about that too when we did
um the episode on Forever Ago on Black Widow and
kind of disnease response to Scarlett show Hanson being like,
you're just trying to get more money, and like, yeah,
(32:25):
she's trying to get what she's worth. Like I saw
the elements of that in here too, where people are like, well,
she's just a woman trying to get money, therefore she
automatically is bad, like not necessarily and that's not even
necessarily was going on. I think that's like one of
the things, as you were saying, Samantha, like this case
is complicated, but it did show us a lot of
(32:46):
these really harmful narratives around women and survivors rape, sexual
assault violence. It's just this whole plethora of really negative things.
And then the court of public opinion now it's still
so much skewed towards men, right, and be harmful, how
harmful this is and will be for other other people watching. Yeah, yeah,
(33:12):
and unfortunately, I mean, I don't know, we're we are
going to have to do an update. I do know,
ever heard I think is writing a book about this,
and I think Johnny Depp is too, So it's gonna
get you, Ben Uglier, I'm sure. So, I'm sure we'll
be back for a revisit. Um. But that's what we
have to say about it for now. UM. As always,
(33:33):
if you have any topic, suggestion, listeners that you can
let us know, you can emails at stuff in your
mom Stuff at I heart mea dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on
Instagram at stuff What Never Told You. Thanks It's always
to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and special
thanks to researcher Joey this week, and thanks to you
for listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of
by Heart Radio. For more podcast in My Heart Radio
(33:54):
This Heard a Apple podcast. Ready listen to your favorite
shows
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I'd welcome to stuff
I never told you production of I Heart Radio. All right,
So we're gonna start this one with content warning right
at the top because we're going to be discussing abuse,
a domestic abuse, specifically trauma and me too. Though nothing
(00:27):
at two in depth. Um, and this one is very
complicated and constantly changing, So time stamp. We are recording
this July two, and I believe it's going to be
at least a week before it comes out, and possibly
more so a lot could change, Like this morning, I
woke up, we're talking about the Amber heard Johnny Depp trial.
I woke up this morning and because I've been researching this,
(00:49):
my phone was like new updates Yeah, okay, which I
did include, But at the point being, and it is
changing a lot, right, Yeah, There's a lot of opinions
out there, and it's a lot of back and forth.
And we will say both Annie and I have been
deliberately staying away from commentating on it because there's a
(01:11):
lot of uncertainty and with sensitive cases like this, especially
in the field like hours, we want to make sure
we are not speaking out too quickly when it shouldn't
be so not that people care our opinions, but I
know it could be like this is a big deal,
why are you talking about it? Type of conversation, And
it's kind of one of those like we want to
wait and see what's happening, and there's a lot to
(01:33):
factor in, and we also need to know how sensitive
and how this can affect UH policy around the world,
which it has. But we'll keep going. Yes, I mean,
it is extremely complicated, and mostly we're going to be
focusing on sort of the fallout of this and why
it's so complicated. But yeah, one last note. We are
not lawyers, UM. We're just going to explain what happens, um,
(01:58):
and why has had an impact already in the world
of me too, and what it means for the future,
what could mean for the future. Okay, so, yes, we're
talking about this trial between Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.
But let's start with some basics, UM. So Heard in
depth first met on the set of The Rum Diary
in two thousand nine. Um. She is over twenty years
(02:21):
younger than him, UM, and so she was on like
the rise in her career, but he was already well
known to the American people at this time. Um, something
that is certainly at play in this whole thing where
he'd come back to that. Um. They started dating in
twelve and got married in ten. Heard filed for divorce.
Days later. She requested and received a restraining order against
(02:44):
Depth due to domestic violence. Um. Depth lawyer accused her
of trying to get more money from Depth. She did
receive a seven million dollar settlement, but donated it to
the a c l U and the Children's Hospital of
Los Angeles, though recently has come to light that not
all of it, perhaps five hundred thousand of it came
from Elon Musk, whom she briefly dated after Depth. Again,
(03:07):
new information all the time coming out, but the a
COLU has released a statement about that that you can
check out. Okay, so this isn't the first time we've
seen herd in Depth in court. A couple of years ago,
Depth lost a UK libel case against the Sun when
HERD provided evidence in support of the publications claims that
Depp beat her. They called him a wife beater. Um.
Even though historically the odds were against her like this
(03:30):
was a really difficult case for her to win in
the UK. Specifically and again that's the legal thing that
are at about. I trust the experts when they say it,
but I am not an expert. Yes um. In light
of this evidence, twelve of the fourteen instances of domestic
violence against her was proven to have taken place, or
the judge believed this was proof enough to prove that
(03:52):
they had taken place, and Judge Justice Nicol ruled that
The Sun's article about Depth was quote substantially true, and
further that she proved that coming forward against Depth quote
had a negative effect on her career as an actor
and activist. The judge dismissed depths claims that she was
a gold digger, saying, quote, her donation of seven million
dollars to charity is hardly the act one would expect
(04:14):
of a gold digger. He cited an email from Depth
that read, I have no mercy, no fear, and not
an ounce of emotion or what I once thought was
lovet for this gold digging, low level dime a dozen mushy,
pointless dangling over used flappy fish market. I can only
hope that Karma kicks in and takes the gift of
breath from her. Sorry man, but now I will stop
(04:34):
at nothing. He also texted actor Paul Bettany, let's drown
her before we burn her. I will her burnt corpse
afterwards to make sure she's dead. Um, the judge said,
quote I accept that she heard was the victim of
sustained and multiple assaults by Mr Depp in Australia. Is
a sign of the depth of his rage that he
(04:54):
admitted scrawling graffiti in blood from his injured finger, and
then when that was into fficient dipping his badly injured
finger and pain and continuing to write messages and other things.
I accept her evidence of the nature of the assaults
he committed against her. They must have been terrifying. I
accept that Mr Depp put her in fear of her life.
A lot of information herd provided was disturbing, including a
(05:17):
force quote cavity search for drugs, and at the time
her lawyer in the US promised even more evidence would
be presented at an upcoming trial here in the States.
So in this case, a Depth suit heard for defamation
for fifty million dollars over an op ed her published
in The Washington Post in eighteen about sexual violence and
in which she never actually mentions depth. Um and her
(05:40):
countersuit for one million. This was a civil suit specifically
tried in Virginia because of the state's libel laws. So
in the op ed headline quote, I spoke up against
sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath. That has to change,
um and Heard alleged that after she spoke up about
Depth abuse, she was dropped from a movie and a
fashion ad campaign, while Depp got a huge role in
(06:03):
the Fantastic Beast franchise, a role he was asked to
resign from after the Sun case. Um and largely outlets
like TNZ sided with Depth, but some feminist writers were
sounding the alarm. This was happening months before the election
of Donald Trump and a year before the Weinstein accusations
really took off. When they did, more people were suddenly
paying attention to the fact that Herds felt the need
(06:25):
to get a restraining order from her ex husband. And
in eighteen Heard was named an ambassador for women's rights
by the a c l U. And this is when
she wrote that op ed that this whole thing is
about and it was in part in support of the
Violence Against Women's Act, which was dropped by Trump and
picked back up by um Biden. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
(06:46):
and we've talked about that in past episodes. In June,
a jury and Virginia rejected that evidence and more that
had worked in the UK and sided with Depth, even
though most experts thought that Depth's chances of winning the
case were lower than Herds. So what happened A lot
of experts think has to do with the fact that
the case was argued to a jury and the media coverage.
(07:09):
According to international media lawyer Mark Stevens, because the US
trial was before a jury, it allowed Depth's lawyers to
focus on Herd. They deny that their client did anything.
They deny they're the real perpetrator, and they attack the
credibility of the individual calling out the abuse, and then
reverse the rules of the victim and the offender. He
also pointed out that Depth's team was more experienced than
(07:29):
Herds and arguing libel cases. Specifically, Yeah, I think if
you heard any part of the trial it felt that way.
I don't know if you of like, huh. Interesting. So
though the jury reached the verdict that Heard and Depth
defamed each other, they sided far more with Depth, supporting
all three of his defamation claims versus only one of Herds. Uh.
(07:50):
This translated to an award of ten point three five
million dollars for Depth and two million for her. Her
lawyer promised that they would appeal, though hers petition for
a mistrial was just rejected. Yes, I just the news
I woke up to on my phone, right, But okay,
what's going on here? If heard had more evidence, why
did she lose? And yes, I know in a lot
(08:11):
of ways this is unfortunately rhetorical, and I've bet a
lot of you are like, oh, I know it already.
But okay, we've seen it happen over and over again
to women after all, But let's still break down some
of it. A big part of this conversation is a
tactic frequently used by abusers called darvo, with many arguing
at that Depth and his team used this strategy. So
this was first introduced by Dr Jennifer fraide In and
(08:35):
this is a quote about it. Darva refers to reaction
perpetrators of wrongdoing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response
to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVA stands for deny,
attack and reverse victim and offender. The perpetrator or offender
may deny the behavior attack the individual doing the confronting
and reverse the roles of victim and offender, such that
(08:55):
the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true
victim or the whistleblower to an alleged offender. This occurs,
for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role
of falsely accused and attacks the accusers of credibility and
blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of false accusation.
So basically, the perpetrator is trying to make it more
(09:17):
difficult to determine who the quote real victim is, engaging
in behavior like downplaying the injuries of the victim while
exaggerating there's their own, and blaming the victim for the
abuser's actions. Some recent research into DARVO suggests women are
exposed to it more often, it is a purposeful strategy
used by the perpetrator when confronted with the victim, and
(09:39):
that it encourages self blame in the victim guest learning uh.
New research has also found that when people were exposed
to DARVO in case of abuse, they were less likely
to believe the victim. However, with some anti DARVO education,
people found the perpetrator less believable. Some argue Depths entire
(09:59):
case against the Washington Post was a Darvo strategy. Yes, Um,
and there has been a lot of argument about who,
if anyone, is employing Darvo in this particular case that
the consensus seems to be it is Depth. Um. He
has the power in the relationship. He's a powerful man,
he's older, he's richer, he's more famous. Um heard admitted
(10:21):
to hitting Depth and some of their altercations. And for
a lot of folks, that muddied the line between abuse
and abuser, which is a clear cut line that often
doesn't exist in reality, but a lot of people think
that it does. Um. And, of course men can be
and are victims of violence and abuse, but many think
that truth was manipulated for Depth by Depth. The trial
(10:43):
has been used both in good faith to showcase that
men can in fact be victims of abuse UM and
don't report it due to stigma, but also in bad
faith by men's rights activists to drag down feminism as
the great evil that they view it to be. According
to mal magazine, He's try outfits neatly into a tapestry
of claims that men are under attack, woven alongside clumsy
(11:04):
narratives about false rape accusations and mother's lying to block
children from their fathers. Uh. Depth did provide evidence that
she had hit him previously, including an audio recording where
she appears to mock him for trying to put himself
in the place of the victim. She said, you can
tell people it was a fair fight, and then see
what the jury and judge thinks. Tell the world, Johnny,
tell them, Johnny Depp I a man. I'm a victim
(11:26):
too of domestic violence. It's a fair fight. And see
how many people believe or side with you. Well, and
here we are. But um and heard had a previous
incident in two thousand nine where she was arrested for
allegedly striking then girlfriend Tasa van Ree's arm. However, van
Ree came out in support of herd claiming the incident
was blown out of proportion due to misogyny and homophobia.
(11:46):
Uh oh okay, But this rings us to two other
big pieces of this case, the myth of the perfect
victim and how we perceive women in particularly women survivors
in court, which we did discuss in our Trauma Any series, Right, right,
So that's a good listen if you want to reminder,
didn't hear those um, But yeah, we've talked about the
(12:08):
perfect victim narrative before, but this is essentially the what
was she wearing? Was she promiscuous? Actually had some drinks
that bs that we always hear, and it did come
up in this. And that's not saying we should dismiss
what hurt is allegedly done. But the incredibly uneven support
Depth has gotten and the money he received compared to
what heard got um and based on the evidence we
(12:30):
had for both parties, that's I mean, that's pretty telling.
And the discourse seems to be she too did harm,
so everything she says is a lie, even if proof
seems to show that he did harm and most likely
more harm. But because she's not perfect, then it doesn't matter. Right. So,
(13:05):
according to an anonymous juror, Heard wasn't quite believable. And
they go on to say she would answer one question
and she would be crying, and two seconds later she
would turn ice cold. It didn't seem natural. Again, some
of the jurors called used the term crocodile tears for her. Meanwhile,
they said Depth seemed more genuine um. And this also
(13:25):
plays into how we believe survivors should behave and pervasive
rape myths and how we don't understand how trauma looks
or manifest as discussed extensively in our Trauma mini series
and our own experiences in trauma as well, because we
get a lot of comments about, yeah, this is inappropriate. Um.
And it was interesting as they came on to be interviewed,
(13:49):
they just kept saying things like that, I just she
doesn't look like this, or she didn't do like I
thought she should, so therefore she's obviously lying, which is
a whole different conversation because as a person who was
on the stand, why would you want you know, like
it's kind of this back and forth, like what is
a believable person? Like there are signs as such, but
(14:11):
the whole time, you know, as I watched some of
the case, you have amber heard uh looking very inquisitive
or scared, as well as sometimes cold and very like focused,
which could be you know, however they wanted to must
translate that to Johnny Depp looking relaxed, making jokes, smiling,
(14:32):
you know, all those things like is that really more believable?
Who knows? Right? And this was originally going to be
a bigger episode, but there was just so much to
impact with this alone, right, But it got me thinking
about when Dr Christine Placey forward came came forward and
how people picked apart her very in my opinion, professional performance. Um.
(14:55):
And then like, we recently saw Cassie Hutchison and Jamie
six hearings and I saw the same thing where I
feel like women, it's yeah, it's a damned if you do,
damned if you don't. We heard a lot of that
narrative around Hill that you couldn't too, like she's too cold,
she's too it feels like she's calculating. So much of
that is training you get because we get judged for
being emotional, right, So it's yeah, I mean, and I
(15:20):
don't know if this is like a just a stereotype
of what it looks like to be on law shows
or something like the constant law shows are like lawyers
training their clients to be a specific way and most
of the times telling women you don't look sympathetic if
you do this, like specifically, if you're too cold, if
you're too direct, don't do that. Mm hmmm. Yeah, And
(15:43):
I mean I can't say specifically for these women, but
for me that would get my head and then I
would become it would become sort of somewhat of a performance,
which would probably seem unnatural to people watching me. And
it is a performance because you are you try to
prepare for trial. That is the thing I had to
do that when we sat down and we talked about
(16:04):
the questions that we would get if we had like
any of these, and if I was stumbling, then therefore
I would look even more unprofessional. But yeah, it was
the whole thing. I found the whole narrative interesting because
of the way it was cited. Again it was either
she was cold or she had crocodile tears, made fake
tears exactly exactly. I can't when And Yeah, as mentioned, um,
(16:29):
the media really had to impact on this case, and
especially social media perhaps um because it did really capture
the attention of the media and the internet and then
pretty much everybody because of that, Court TV doubled their
daytime ratings when they broadcast the show. Yeah, I said,
show the case. Um, everyone had an opinion on it.
(16:52):
And when asked about the response on social media about
this whole case, Dr Fred said, what we have witnessed
in the US over this case has been an overwhelming
case for Depth on social media. It is like an
anti herd campaign and there has been a lot of darvo.
Every day. During the six week trial, hashtags like justice
for Johnny Depp were trending, and though the jurors were
(17:12):
not supposed to check social media surrounding the case, I mean,
how could they avoid it? Right? It was everywhere and
from team Vogue, they said, But instead of being relegated
to the deep corners of the Internet, your younger siblings
and parents and teachers are equally as likely to catch
an inflammatory TikTok or Facebook post about the trial as
anyone else. TikTok's mocking Herd are all over the app
(17:36):
and SNL even did a skit about the abuse trial
which they were like, what the hell are you doing?
Snl And according to NBC News, as a trial began,
quote posters on Twitter and TikTok have overwhelmingly backed Depth,
with hashtags like justice for Johnny Depp, racking up nearly
three billion views on TikTok. Similar hashtags have been tweeted
thousands of times. Meanwhile, Amber heard it's frequently called a liar,
(17:59):
a old digger, and quote Amber turn very very adult like.
There was also a TikTok trend addressing her that started
with quote, he could have killed you. He had every right. Um.
And even the celebrities got on board on this. It
was a lot more publicly speaking depths name like literally
they were talis about who was on whose side and
(18:20):
which celebrities were liking Post for justice, for depth and
all of these things. It was an interesting, really sad
take of the entire conversation. Um. But again going back
to the reminder, I'm we're gonna come back to this
point that this was about an article that did not
even mention his name. Yes, yes, um. And I don't
(18:43):
know if we made this entirely clear, but Dr Fade,
who had been mentioning throughout who came up with Darvo,
has been interviewed with a lot of this um and
so earlier, and we said, like, I believe it was her.
She she made the case. Like the whole Washington Post
Depth suing them at all was an instance of this,
because he was so angry about what happened in the
(19:09):
UK and what he perceived that to be as his
like reputation. UM. So like this entire case was a
very strategic um kind of instance of abuse. UM, because
it's not easy. We're gonna talk about this later too,
but it's not easy to confront in court your abuser
and talk about this stuff. And it was it was
(19:31):
really ugly in a lot of ways. And speaking of
others have pointed out the toxic fandom kind of aspect
of this whole thing, choosing size, as you say, um,
something called mumification, where just a lot of people on
the Internet are making memes of Amber heard that are
pretty cool. Here's another quote from that article Online, the
(19:51):
controversy has taken on a creepy bent, being streamed means
and opined on from TikTok to TV to Twitter, with
fandoms developing for each side. One screenshot shows the post
calling for viewers to like the post to support Depth
and retweet to support Herd, like it's the super Bowl
or something. Um. And then here's a quote from tech
journalist Ryan Broadwick. Basically, a lot of boring men think
(20:14):
Johnny Depp is cool. Zack Snyder fans think Amber Herd's
issues with depth have impacted the release of DC movies.
Harry Potter adults are mad that Depth was removed from
the Fantastic Beast franchise after he was accused of domestic violence,
and a lot of turns viciously defend anything online about
Harry Potter because of J. K. Rowlings increasingly public transphobia.
Others have pointed out that depth has many roles that
(20:35):
are beloved in comparison to herd, so many people wanted
to see him vindicated because he may have played some
of their favorite characters, right. I mean, that's definitely true,
and the fact that he resigned from Fantastic Beast was
one of the things that he used in the counter
in his suing. But it's interesting to the level of
fandom who would not let this go um and just
(20:58):
about how sexy was, Like the conversation about how sexy
you was, how daddy was it was weird, Like this
is not the moment again, it's kind of the serial
killer vibe. But but I'm not saying he's a serial killer.
I'm not saying the fans are that level. I'm just
saying that, like overall, like it almost made him more
desirable to be in this situation. Yeah, and I mean
(21:22):
the fact that we are going to talk about that
a bit more. But the fact that that even comes
out at all in a case of domestic abuse. But
he's so sexy, Like that's what that is. Like You're like, wait,
what just because so yeah, we'll go on to that.
But yeah, on top of this, there's evidence Depth team
used bots to attack herd online, and conservative outlets have
(21:43):
sided with Depth too, with at least one spending millions
on advertisings against heard Um, and Fox Network is set
to air TMC documentary on the trial called Johnny Versus
Amber From Love to Hate. It's really showcases how we've
turned this into entertainment when real people, in real consequences
for others are involved. Yeah, this whole thing. There's a
(22:06):
big conversation about that fact that we've had previously about disinformation,
misinformation and campaigns where they are smearing people's characters and
this was you specifically to smear heard before the trial
even began. Yeah, And I think that's pretty telling. Like
if they Conservative Network spent millions on an advertising campaign
(22:27):
against her because she's involved in the trial domestic abuse trail,
I mean that's something's messed up with that, something is
off about that when there's a motive behind this, because
there's no real need. This is not like Johnny Depp's
running for president point in time? Is he? Wait? Is he?
(22:47):
And I'm just like, I'll just realize what I just
said and not kind of wondering. Okay. Yeah, So now
we wanted to wrap up with the fallout and implications,
and there are a lot and we're only going to
touch on some of them. But yeah, I think we
could come back and do a whole revisited this one, because,
as we said, what's still happening. So after this, as
it was ongoing and after a lot of people in
(23:08):
the me too space released some statements about it, many
saw the response to this case as a backlash to
the Me too movement and the Believe women hashtag. After
the verdict came down, activists and co founder of the
Me too movement, Toronto Burke, released the statement, the way
in which me too has been co opted and manipulated
(23:29):
during the Johnny Depp versus Amber her Child is a
toxic catastrophe, one of the biggest defamations of the movement
we have ever seen. Right Um and several have pointed
out that depth is the first a list sex sible
to come under fire from Me too and he has
won multiple Oscars and has been People's Sexiest Men Alive
three different times. Basically for decades, our culture has admired
(23:53):
and praised him, and that has primed many to side
with him. People want to believe he's innocent and have
given him far more of the benefit of the doubt.
Is absolutely he kind of was like America's sweetheart as
it as it will, like the sexiest men alive being
Jack Sparrow, Like he became iconic for his caricatures, and uh,
(24:16):
some of them are disturbing, the disturbing characters. Yeah, yeah,
And I mean we've already like, I've already primed as
much as the outcry has been um from these bots
are angry. Men were already primed in court to believe
min like and not to believe women. He already had
(24:36):
the advantage in that sense. But then he has like, yes,
all of these fans, people think he's attractive. He's played
the like favorite characters, like he had all of these
things in his favor right for this, and I do.
I was thinking, I said, I know I've told this
story before, but I wrote an essay about how much
I love Johnny Depp in high school, and now it
makes my stomach urb. I've never been a fan of
(24:59):
John Depth and I'm not really sure why. Uh, but yeah,
he's never been one that I like got my attention.
Um interesting enough, so for me it was just like okay,
So like whatever's okay. Yeah, And we've already seen some
(25:30):
really troubling hints at the future, especially when it comes
to abusers punishing victims for coming forward with defamation cases. Again,
this is already kind of under attack, under like a
Supreme Court level of being able to do civil suits
and defamation suits, not necessarily for the regular person, but
there's a lot coming down on that, and I really
(25:50):
have concerns about what this looks like for possible survivors
in the future. Um. And after this case, Brian Warner
a k a. Marilyn Manson file the defamation case against
Evan Rachel Wood. Uh. And then you can see the
episode we did with bridget about this and don't forget
This entails a traumatizing force interaction between the abuse and
(26:10):
the victim survivor, including reliving past trauma and retelling the
past trauma and then being questioned repeatedly about it until
you start questioning it yourself, and experts warned the amount
of attention to trial God and the outcome is going
to send a message to all survivors, which it already
(26:32):
has and abusers watching um again, this has a lot
of that conversation when we see the backlash gas lighting,
victim blaming, so much more that's already difficult to get
past from jump um and the continued lines that cannot
be swells when people are saying, but there's a lot
of false reports which is completely and absolutely and utterly untrue.
(26:57):
So it is it's definitely caused for a lot of
um were we as well as the fact that yes,
if whatever happens with the Evan and Rachel Wood case,
this conversation talks about being able to speak out in general, um,
even if it isn't based on charging them or getting
them arrested, which is way more difficult. Exactly exactly, UM,
(27:18):
I read a very disturbing quote where somebody was saying,
like essentially of users everywhere like taking notes. Okay, got
it right, and also they should be mentioned apparently Depp
and Warner our friends in real life. Of course. I
saw he released a very hateful song about Amber heard
(27:38):
just a few days ago. Delightful, sounds wonderful. He being
dep I don't know about Warner, but oh, I thought
you meant Warner. I mean, who knows? Keep going okay.
According to Christine im Schwartz, who is the clinic director
at the Jane W. Wilson Family Justice Clinic at the
u J Law School, quote, I promise to you that
(28:00):
in the demographic I work with, there are abusers out
there right now telling victims. I'm going to pull a
dep on you. If you disclose, I will sue you.
It's a power and control threat that now has a
name attached to it. And sociologist Nicole Badera said, imagine
if in trying to talk to all of these people,
someone taking the perpetrator side said to you, if you
keep saying this stuff, he's going to sue you for defamation.
(28:22):
I guarantee you that's happening right now. Our friends and
family are saying to someone accused of sexual violence, you
could sue her. I guarantee you that people are saying
that right now, all across the country. She went on
to say, historically saying that your survivor of domestic violence
is qualified as protected speech, but that the defamation suit
against Amber Heard puts all of that in doubt. And
(28:45):
that's the big conversation is that she wrote an op
ed without truly naming them because he is famous. Because
the case had gone uh into the news, into media,
the people guessed it that she was sued. And that
is not the same thing as saying you're suing for
violence a civil suit because you've caused me stressed. This
was about him trying to get her to publicly be
(29:09):
humiliated so they could he could discredit her in an
op ed that really didn't name him. Yes, it was
about him obviously, come of the generic experience for her
in there in itself. Um, But now this is about
being able to write it not bed right. And and
and we've been talking about this a lot recently actually,
and I think some of the episodes haven't come out yet,
(29:31):
but we've been talking a lot about you know, celebrities
are people, So we've we've actually been talking about this
a lot lately. Celebrities are people, and just because your
celebrity doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from writing an
op ed about an experience you had. But it also
was terrifying because she's as celebrity right, and it went
(29:51):
this way. She has more resources, She has more resources
and able to defend herself. And then it went this
way anyway, because exactly it comes down to is whoever
has the most money most likely will win. Yeah, it
seems it seems yeah yeah. And experts have said that
this is a bleak reminder of a system that does
not offer our equal protections. Herd lawyer said the result
(30:14):
of the case sends a quote terrible message to women,
and that Herd told her she felt she had let
down women. Um here's a quote from her I'm heartbroken
that the amountain of evidence still was not enough to
stand up to the disproportionate power, influence and sway of
my ex husband. I'm even more disappointed with what this
verdict means for other women. It is a setback. It
sets back the clock to a time when a woman
(30:35):
who spoke up and spoke out could be publicly shamed
and humiliated. It sets back the idea that violence against
women is to be taken seriously. And going back to
Dr Freyde, she said, of all this, others who wish
to make claims will see what happened in this case
and see what has happened to her, and think twice
many will be afraid to talk, and many already are
afraid to talk. And again we're not talking about the
(31:00):
actual what happened between Heard and Depth. There is evidence
that they were toxic and abusive to each other. Um.
But this conversation is the bigger play about Yes, there's
a power, there is a way of wielding that power,
as well as the fact that it's silencing from people
speaking up. Um. But we know that Johnny Depp was
(31:22):
not quite either. Obviously when he went for the Sun
and trying to sue and all of that, he wasn't
being quiet, uh, and he was telling people as well
as letting people know on a professional level what was happening.
So I feel like again, like there was this back
and forth which both of them it was true. Ambery
(31:42):
Heard also lost opportunities as well, but maybe not as
much as he did because he was already a bigger
actor who was already eating more money and had more
power in the industry anyway, So there's this whole level
of conversation of like, sure it impacted Johnny Depp, but
it impacted her as well. Like again, it's kind of
same narrative of that gold digger trope, being like she
(32:03):
was making money and it was easy for her to
do this. Um, any survivor of domestic moments will tell
you this is not something that gives you favor, right, right,
And I was thinking about that too when we did
um the episode on Forever Ago on Black Widow and
kind of disnease response to Scarlett show Hanson being like,
you're just trying to get more money, and like, yeah,
(32:25):
she's trying to get what she's worth. Like I saw
the elements of that in here too, where people are like, well,
she's just a woman trying to get money, therefore she
automatically is bad, like not necessarily and that's not even
necessarily was going on. I think that's like one of
the things, as you were saying, Samantha, like this case
is complicated, but it did show us a lot of
(32:46):
these really harmful narratives around women and survivors rape, sexual
assault violence. It's just this whole plethora of really negative things.
And then the court of public opinion now it's still
so much skewed towards men, right, and be harmful, how
harmful this is and will be for other other people watching. Yeah, yeah,
(33:12):
and unfortunately, I mean, I don't know, we're we are
going to have to do an update. I do know,
ever heard I think is writing a book about this,
and I think Johnny Depp is too, So it's gonna
get you, Ben Uglier, I'm sure. So, I'm sure we'll
be back for a revisit. Um. But that's what we
have to say about it for now. UM. As always,
(33:33):
if you have any topic, suggestion, listeners that you can
let us know, you can emails at stuff in your
mom Stuff at I heart mea dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on
Instagram at stuff What Never Told You. Thanks It's always
to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and special
thanks to researcher Joey this week, and thanks to you
for listening Stuff and Never Told You the protection of
by Heart Radio. For more podcast in My Heart Radio
(33:54):
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