BDSM: Part 1

The world of BDSM is vast and often misunderstood. A & S sit down with guests from this world to discuss all things kink in part one of this two part episode.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I'm never told to your protection of I Heart Radio
is how stuff works. Today, we're talking about something that
I think is frequently misunderstood UM. And before we get

(00:24):
into it, we did want to say that this is
we're giving it the not Safer work stamps. Yes, perhaps
so that means don't blast it on your computer while
you're trying to look up the email Bob about the
long email he sent you. Why unless you're trying to
get fired or leave on an epic, they just blast it. Actually,

(00:49):
they should wait to bless it on the interviews when
they get more detailed what they like. Yeah, yeah, we
might be building it up more than it is, but
it's just so interesting. It is. It is UM and
it is one of those things that I think has
been seen as taboo. But we're talking about b D

(01:10):
s M and the world of bondage, kink and kink,
and we we're fortunate enough are really you You were
the one who did the leg work on this, and
we found people too who are who are willing to
speak with that about it. You're actually kind of excited
thing to speak with us because they wanted to break
that stereotype, the stigma that comes with what bondage means,

(01:33):
what kink means, and women in that world, or those
who identify as female in that world, And it was
really kind of beautiful to hear everything they said, Like
I was, I don't know about you. I'll learn a lot,
oh yes, but just it was fascinating because this world
is seemingly better on track on some things when it
comes to sexuality than the heateral normative ideas or the

(01:55):
normative ideas of what sex is right. And we're gonna
talk about some of that stuff for shore and they
they speak to some of those things in in the
interviews that we did, but before we get into those interviews,
we we did want to do kind of an overview.
Numbers are a bit difficult to come by from this world.
A study out of Australia found that over a year period,

(02:18):
one point eight percent of sexually active people, two point
two percent of men and one point three percent of
women were involved in b D s M, and that
the numbers were higher among the l G B t
Q plus community. A two thousand and five studies suggest
that Americans might be more into b D s M
than the rest of the world. Thirty six percent of
adults reported using blindfolds, masks, and bondage during sex. The

(02:40):
worldwide number is thought to be around That's interesting because
when I was researching some things, the whole statistics of
I guess sex toys or UM toys used in bondage
or b D s M in the bedroom alone, America
was ranked as one of the higher ones in using
these things as well. So it just because we're maybe

(03:01):
more open. Oh, I don't think that's what it is.
I don't think so either, But I think that's fascinating,
especially when you think of European ideas. Maybe that's just
a stereotype. That's true. That's true, UM, and maybe we
should take a step back good because I feel like
most people know what b D f M is, but
I bet a lot of people hear that what they
think of is ift shades of gray, which did do

(03:22):
a lot to bring it into our cultural mainstream, even
if a lot of it was incorrect. Um are just
like whips and leather. So b D s M means
bondage and discipline, dominance and submission and sadism and masochism.
And there's a whole lot of stuff in there. We
got so much out of these interviews that we are
going to split it probably into two. Um, but just

(03:44):
just in case, like you, you've only got kind of
a vague idea, and we are going to go into well,
not us specifically, but people that we interviewed will go
into they'll break that down more for exactly. Study from
the Kinsey Institute found that five to ten per cent
of Americans regularly engage in s and m um, wh

(04:04):
should I always the h honest song whips. I remember,
actually that song was huge when I first got this job,
and I remember listening to it on Marta, which is
our public transport every day. I'm not gonna lie, I'm
really surprised that you listen to that sometimes. I just

(04:24):
get some pop cultures I would not imagine. Well, as
a runner, you need your beats per minute, and certain
songs um hit that beat per minute, and that's how
I know them, generally the popular one now, I think, Okay,
m Anyway, I found this interesting. A N study found

(04:44):
that of women in fifty of men like being bitten.
A N study found that sixty of university students fantasized
about being tied up. One study found that less than
ten percent of women like to dominate. And there is
a popular misconception that submissives are people who like to

(05:04):
be the submissive one in this kind of dynamic, this
power dynamic, are weak or have low self esteem in
your life, But in actuality, most bottoms or submissives have
a lot of power and want to take on the role,
a role different than every day Relinquishing control when you're
a control freak can be a relief um something like that.

(05:26):
But from the people we talked to, definitely exactly, and
and we even talked with a couple of black women
who are in that community, and they even talk about
the fact that it comes with the stigma for them
as well. If they say submissive. They talk about the
language in itself and the wars in itself and how
it kind of disrupts their mindsets even though it shouldn't.
And the Ugle hilar that more in the interview, and

(05:47):
I found that fascinating. But it does. It comes with
this whole connotation, and again we're gonna talk a little
bit more. I found some research about that as well.
There's a lot of assumptions out there that submission is
kind of again the weaker the dominant in that this
is women in general. Yeah, yeah, And I always have

(06:08):
to relate back to fan fiction, and I even brought
this up embarrassingly during the interview, but people in the
fan fiction will know that this is a very common
like you'll see dom sub um and usually and you
can find are the epic piece we did on a
fan fiction learn more about this. But most of it,
well not I don't know if I want to say most,
but a lot of the couples, even though they're written

(06:29):
by female writers, are gender nonconforming writers are male male
and the yeah male two men um and usually the
submissive one is understood to be the weaker one, and
it is. I mean, I love fan fiction, but there
are you can see a lot of toxic things play out.

(06:51):
Are just things that I think people have internalized and
don't realize they've internalized. So we're, yeah, for sure going
to bring that back up into the interviews. The percentage
of folks fantasizing about something that would fall under the
B d S m umbrella from psychology today is about
six or four point six percent. Of women in fifties

(07:12):
three point three percent of men that reported fantasies about
being dominated sexually and forty six point seven percent of women.
In fifty nine point six percent of men reported fantasies
about dominating someone sexually. All right, Actually, again, I think
I just hit on the fact that when I was
researching it, there's this assumption that women want to be taken,

(07:33):
because that's the best board I can give. And one
of the things that popped up. And I had no
idea when at first when I was reading through it
what kind of article it was. The site has some
interesting and off the mark ideas. I don't know how
else to say that, which I think is part of
the whole pick up artist. The site I think has yeah,
that kind of leaning, I mean, which while I was
reading it, an advertisement popped up, offering to teach me

(07:56):
the key of getting women to flood my bedroom. What's
the key? I don't know. And it's just because I'm
not gonna lie. It's like, okay, now, that's this column
is making a lot more sense with that advertisement it self,
but in which the writerserts once again that women all
want to be dominated, and he used the word all

(08:18):
and all are submissive. And also, as we would say
it's incorrect. The whole idea of Madonna and horror persona
is real, and it's again taken on by every woman.
I guess. Um. It even continues with again all the
misogynistic idea that men are no longer men as he's
saying it today, and that's they're being domes emasculated, and

(08:41):
again he says this and must reprogram their minds to
get what they want and become quote unquote a real man,
because again apparently all women just want to be dominated.
And he even mentions his relationship with conservative women, religious
women and how he's like, yeah, they're they're freaks essentially
what he's saying in the bed. I was just like,

(09:02):
oh God, why am I reading this? I think every
few words I was carsing at the at the column.
But again, this isn't one of the first actually was
one of the first things I popped up when I
was searching and researching. I was like, I hate that. Yeah,
I encounter that a lot. Yeah. Also, we had a
fun off my conversation about the time my mom gave
me that book where Good Girls Go Bad, and I'm

(09:25):
still trying to figure out if it was a joke. Right, yeah,
and he actually highlights that as well. I'm not going
to name off the site or or the author, but
he he says, as well, as you know, good girls
actually want to be bad girls, and this is how
you turned them. Oh my goodness. Um, well, um, going

(09:45):
back to some more research. You don't you don't like
my research? No, I mean it's important point to touch on.
How Also, yeah, be careful what you read when you're
researching these things. Yes, and that we heard that from
the people, Yes, about like the correct search terms to use.
Harvard University hosted group for Students interested in Consensual S

(10:05):
and M so as of the university, I believe, so. Yeah.
So yeah, as I was researching more according to and
I'm going to talk a little more about kink, the
kink community as with the b D s M as well,
because this is kind of an overarching topic and overarching research,
I guess. Um. And according to the study titled Sensual,

(10:25):
Erotic and Sexual Behaviors of Women from the Kink Community,
and it's written by Jennifer eve Rohar because she just
had a lot like this is a lot of content,
and I was like, yeah, I want to I I want
to see what's going on. So if y'all look that up,
you can see that for yourself. So in eighteen eighties six,
Richard Vaughan Kraft Eating, I believe that's right, an early
quote unquote sexologist. I think he was one of those

(10:48):
with freud Um published Psychopathia Sexualities with a special reference
to the antipathic sexual instinct. A medical forensic study. I'm
guessing this is Ianish, which was known as an Encyclopedia
of sexual perversion. Now this is not what I'm calling it.
This is what it stated to be. So they looked
a lot about like criminal behavior or perverse behavior, as

(11:12):
they said again eighteen eighties six. So he studied more
than two clinical cases of unconventional sexual behavior. Again, remember
this book, of course, regarded sex a only as for reproduction,
and he focused normal sex quote unquote uh like the
penis vagina essentially, and that that was the normal behavior.

(11:34):
And this is everything else's a perversion, I guess, or
as he said, unconventional sex sexual behaviors. Almost all of
these clinical cases were based on male clients, and apparently
von Craft Eating documented only two cases of female sadism
and only two cases of female masochism, so this is

(11:54):
a really small number obviously, and acknowledge that he had
quote unquote thus far not succeeded in obtaining facts with
regards to pathological fetishism in women. And both of them
contended that masochism was the natural state for women, so
it's impossible to study female sexual masochism now that think
about it, that's weird. In a group attempted to again

(12:16):
research the Stato mesochistically oriented women, they only found thirty
four participants that fit their criteria, so they had a
specific mode UM and I think it discluded any sex
workers as well as UM I think some criminal behavior essentially.
But due to this, it was assumed that very few
women participated in kink and that research is slowly coming
to understand that the number of women and those who

(12:38):
identify as female actually enjoy and enthusiastically participate in the
kink and B s M world. Also, it was pointed
out that many people may not realize that the thing
they enjoyed are actually categorized as kink or b D
s M. And I think that's very true for many people.
And one of our interviewers talked about that she's just
like Oh, this is actually exactly what I like. I

(13:00):
didn't know it was a thing, um, And the article
has some interesting theories and lots of like side of research.
You should definitely go check it out if you want
to kind of see the history of research on it,
because the whole idea it was based on do women
enjoy this? And not necessarily that the numbers were correctly
saying this small amount. It was just they didn't get
enough participants. Whether it's a stigma of what kink in

(13:22):
fetishism and b D s M was or whether it's
uh they were excluding sex workers and at this point
they definitely brought back the idea, Yes, sex workers can
enjoy it as well, and it's not necessarily one excluding
the other. Also, this is coming from a very gender
normative perspective. Yes, Unfortunately, as with most right right um,

(13:45):
Despite a popular narrative otherwise, people who engage in b
D s M have been shown to have lower levels
of anxiety depression, PTSD, psychological sadism, psychological masochism, paranoia, and
borderline pathology when compared to a normative sample of those
that don't engage in b D s M. Because I
think it is a popular people think, if you're doing
b D s M something right not right in your

(14:05):
brain or something there's something kind of what was it?
What devian version type of like those titles that were
put on way back when right UM. People who engage
in b D s M also UM showed higher levels
of openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, and subjective well being,

(14:26):
and lower levels of rejection, sensitivity and eroticism. UM research
has shown that after a scene in b D s
M UM, which is kind of like an agreed upon,
like negotiated what frequently said, this is what we're gonna do,
this is the thing the bottom are, the submissive experience

(14:47):
both decrease in psychological stress and an increase in physiological stress,
which is interesting because it does suggest an altered state
of consciousness. Further tests found that bottoms interest state called
transient hype b frontality in tops or dominance interstate known
as flow. Transient hypofrontality comes with sensations of floating, reductions

(15:09):
and pain, time distortions and peace. Flow, on the other hand,
is associated with focused attention, optimal performance, and a loss
of self consciousness. Historically, ancient Greek art depicted b D
s M and the Comma Sutra circus featured erotic spanking.
Brothels that specialized in dominating men date back to the

(15:30):
eighteenth century. Point being this is not a new thing
and overall point being frequently misunderstood, and I feel like
a lot more people participated than most people think. Right again,
as we were talking about the earlier studies and a
lot of people have do not know that it is
identified as bad as them or which about brings us

(15:51):
to our interviews, right, but first it brings us to
a quick break for a workingmer sponsor and we're back,
thank you sponsoring. So I actually was linked with Sammy,
who you're gonna hear on the interview, and she's been
involved in the Atlanta kink community for a few years now.

(16:14):
And with that we were also able to talk with Lily,
Moxie and Rema. I'm gonna say I learned so much
from them it was amazing. So here you go, it's
how to learn. Hi, I'm Sammy. Um do you want
me to say something about who? I say? Whatever you want, Sammy? Yeah? Yeah, Like, um,
who who are you? A questions question? Uh? So I

(16:40):
am here today because um, I'm involved in the kink community,
and um, I'm here to share my story a little
bit UM and I'm Lily, And I think kind of
the reason I'm here is probably because I am also
a part of the local king community and also the
regional and national king community. I have a lot of
different kink I entities that also include power, exchange, enthusiasm,

(17:03):
and some fetishism around bondage and some uh maybe some
interesting things that are not so common. I am Moxie.
I am UM a budding and exciting or like excited
sexual advocate UM also inclusive lgbt Q, UM like feminist.

(17:25):
And I'm excited to be here today to talk to
you guys about one of my favorite topics about type.
My name is Rama. Um how I got involved right? Well,
asked My mom likes to tell all my girlfriends. Do
you also walk around the house and just tie everything
up and tire sisters up? My sisters will tell you
where's the shoe string is wrapped around one of my sisters. Um. So,

(17:47):
bondage has always been an amazing story, has always been there,
and I just like time people up so being people
calls some pain that's my So are you a top
or a dom or up are you talk about theom
I'm a dog? So you said your mom, I wouldn't
say that. Does your mom know that you're part of

(18:09):
the pink world because you were just very open about
So when I started ordering rope initially had it going
to her house and she was like, why do you
keep ordering so much Rope? And I stopped. I was like,
do you really want to know? And she was like,
my god, and she was like, my kids are in
such interesting things. She was like, I don't want to know.

(18:30):
And I was just like okay. She was like, what
you doing? I said, remember that thing you said you
don't want to know? She was like, okay, I'll talked
to you later. I'm just like, cool, So your mom
has an idea, yeah, but you're not. You're not hiding anything.
I love I love it. So I met Sammy through
a friend of ours and we had we were having

(18:51):
a conversation about how I was part of this podcast
now and we wanted to jump into conversations about women
in sexuality and not only that, but the ideas that
a lot of people don't think in regards to feminism
or feminist females or those who identify as film up
females and sex and one of the things we're talking about,
you and I were talking about kink and fetishes and bondage.

(19:13):
What does that look like when it comes to a
female perspective, because we often hear this through male perspective
or misogynistic ideas, whereas very male controlled from what I
understand from what I've seen more so than anything else.
And you and I had a conversation, what does this
look like when it is female driven or and or
um you know, something that is enjoyed by women, and

(19:36):
how do we look at it and talk about it
unless explore this idea of women enjoying sex, women enjoying pink.
I know, right, Let's go ahead and start off with
can you guys give us some terms or specific words
or the definitions to some of the things that you
may say that we might not understand or using everyday
conversation because you were talking about the power all of that.

(20:00):
Can you kind of define what some of these may be, like,
I know we'll be using dun, submissive and all of those.
If you can give us some little baseline words. Sure, Um, So,
I think it's important to express first and foremost that
a lot of people in the community will use these
words differently than I might. UM. So these are just
how I might use these definitions. UM. And when you
think of B D, S M, it's an acronym that

(20:21):
people can use, like there are four different ways to
even define that one acronym. So just know that there's
a lot of debate around this UM. There it's like
any sort of subculture. There's a ton of people who
have different opinions. UM. But in general it kind of
encompasses this idea and what I was speaking about when
I said power exchanges, this idea of like very intentionally
making a decision around one party having a power or

(20:44):
authority or florthy other. And that can be in like
a very discreete way, so like over the course of
one interaction, so like a scene or play, Um, that
could be an hour or one day or one evening,
or over the course of an entire relationship that could
be a lifelong relationship. Right. So power exchange can occur
in a lot of different context it can occur at
a lot of different intensity levels, UM, And it can

(21:05):
be defined by a lot of different sort of behaviors. UM.
But when I say power exchange, I generally mean a consensual, informed,
intentional decision by two parties to give one party a
leadership role and authority over the other party. So when
I say that I'm enthusiastic about power exchange, I both
mean in discrete ways like in interactions, but also um,

(21:26):
I actively pursue those types of relationships as well. UM.
So that's like kind of the main way that my
personal kink manifest and it looks different with different people
and in different interactions. UM, but that would be like
the primary way of defining uh that for me. And
then also you have something like s M, which is
just sado massochism, So you have sadism and massochism, which

(21:49):
is kind of more the it's more about the actions
and the things that are really occurring between two people.
So that's more about sensation. It's more about pain and
experiences of pain and sensation, so it's a little bit different.
It's more about the actual physical um and sometimes emotional experiences.
I don't know if you want to add to that.
The other terms that we might use been talking about

(22:10):
ropes specifically is probably tops and bottoms, um or rigor um.
The rigor or top is the person who's doing the tying, um,
and the bottom is the person who's being tied, and
shabari is what the whole process of tying and the
kink world. We use a lot of Japanese words badly

(22:31):
in the United States when it comes to ro bondage.
We steal words and use them poorly. So we might
use words like shabarri or kimbuku to describe things that
in ways that most Japanese people would not, But we
do it anyway, um, because we've taken a lot of
inspiration from Japanese bondage culture. Um. Um. But I think
other than that, if we say something like uh, Lily

(22:52):
mentioned a scene, that's what we call it. If it's
a pre negotiated interaction um. And like Lily said, they
can be ten minutes or they can be ten days
like it just it depends on what's negotiated. And and again, UM,
my partner could tell you the history of it way
better than I could. Yeah, he is very into the

(23:14):
history of rope. Um. But it's a common misconception that
it comes from Japanese torture and it's like this ancient practice. Um.
When an actuality it seems like it and correct me
if I'm wrong, Lily, you probably know this better than
I do as well. It UM kind of emerged in
like the sixties, right yea, So basically post World War two,
when most people were starting to be more creative with

(23:35):
their sexuality in the West end in the East was
when bondos started to become part of our sexual vernacular.
But like, I think there is still some inspiration from
ancient times when we look at like art and things
like that. And but there are a lot of folks
in the in the modern bondage community who want to
talk about how there's like this very distinctive timeline from

(23:57):
maybe like ancient um you stern times, and we mostly
just think that's not true. That's a red flag to
me if I hear a lot of people talking about
how what they're doing is like very traditional, we're just
making this stuff up. Really. But again, like any subculture,
and I would say specifically this what Eastern style of
bondage is a subculture of a subculture of a subculture. UM,

(24:18):
there's elitism and like people are always trying to say
they're doing it a more authentic or traditional way than
other people. So you have these hierarchies that form so
are safe wards an actual thing? Or is that more
of a staffords are so misunderstand understood I could oh man,
So here's the thing. If if I am, if I

(24:39):
am doing B D s M with a person and
they say, hey, could you stop doing that? I'm just
gonna stop doing that, okay, unless I have very specifically
negotiated for the When they say stop doing that, for
it not to mean stop doing that, right, okay. This
is called consensual nonconsent. It's a very specific type of play.
It can also be a type of relationship. It's very specific.
Unless you're doing that kind of play, you don't need

(25:00):
a safe word, right, This is my opinion. There are
people who argue with me. Okay. But like if I am,
for instance, doing a rope scene with Sammy and she says, hey,
you're not my right arm, can you fix it? Or hey,
you are hurting my elbow? Can you please move that
rope two inches up my elbow, I'll say absolutely, I
will let me fix up for you so we can
keep doing this thing that we both enjoy. She doesn't

(25:21):
need a safe word to communicate, and in fact, her
saying watermelon doesn't actually communicate. An't even think that communicate
to me. So I think that safe words are very
very misunderstood, and they are useful if you are in
a C and C scene conceptual non consent, where you
have decided I want to scream no, I want to
scream stop. I want to be at the top of
my left no. Stop. But I don't want you to

(25:42):
listen to me, right, Okay. I did have a situation
where I was playing with someone who had not played
with before and I was hurting them and they started
screaming No. One stopped, and so I stopped and they
were like, oh, I didn't mean it, and I was like,
we didn't negotiate that, So I'm stopping, right, So now
I have to change my sapord from watermelon, don't it's
a security. If someone's going to ignore your please stop

(26:05):
doing that, we're going to ignore your safer it too, also,
so I think it creates a false sense of right.
And I wondered if that was just like a more
studio type, because it is kind. I do think that
there's a space for yellow and an impact because that
yellow yellow, like a common safe like phrase, is either

(26:26):
yellow or red and yellow is like Okay, that's not
too much, but you might be being close to too much,
so just keep that in mind, right, Um. And that's
especially if you're in in like rough impact scene or
something like that, there's less communication than when you're in rope.
For me, I'm not there is a time and a place,

(26:47):
but some people don't want to say sentences right, like
they don't want to Sometimes easier to be like okay, yellow,
but then be like okay, so slow it down a
little bit, but keep going. That's great, so very good point.
And then yeah, I do think that also with especially
like rough impact scenes, there's a place for red two

(27:07):
or whatever is safe word you've I don't I don't
see a reason to not have it just be yellow
and red. But um if I do think there's a
place for red, because you can accidentally hurt someone if
you're like wrestling around with them, um in a way
that like you need them to stop touching you immediately.
And if you say like red and you know that,
then like they'll stop touching immediately, like if you think
you've pulled something out of socket or something like that. Um.

(27:31):
So I do think that in other types of play,
there's there is a place for this, there is another
there's a community thing where like if you're in a
in a setting where you're in public, right and someone
screams red across the room, everyone knows what that means.
So that is kind of a nice thing about it too,
And so I didn't mean to dismiss as like a
useless thing, right, They're just misunderstood, right, So like if

(27:53):
I am in a public place space and I hear
someone screaming right across the room, I'm I'm going to
be like, WHOA, what's going on? And everyone in that
room that's monitoring the safety of that environment is going
to be like, well, what's going on? Okay? Okay, that
makes less sense. So that being said as someone who
doesn't have no idea, and I'm learning so much and
I'm very very happy about it. But like one, do

(28:15):
you engage with in play with partners? Is it usually
that it happens um over a lot of like sessions
times are are is it kind of like one officer?
Is it mix of both, which I am assuming but
um and also um sex always involved? Or is it sometimes?

(28:36):
I love this question. I love this question for several reasons.
And I feel if I don't address something that you said,
please let me know. I'm a talker. So first, sex
is not always involved um with the play that I do.
I do know that there are people that sex and
kink are very much intertwined. They don't really have a

(28:57):
distinction between that for me because I think so much
of the play that I crave is about control. I like,
I can have control over you by just telling you
you can't use the restroom, like I don't need to
touch you, we don't need to engage in anything. And
that's fine for me. Like, yes, it will also turn
me on, but it's not something that I'm that will

(29:19):
always do that. It's just kind of like I love
that this person is letting me tell them what to do,
and that's awesome. And then there are also times and
I'm just like that person is letting me tell them
what to do. This is awesome, And I think that
it's just it depends on the person. It's just really
being like we've been really clear about these boundaries. And
then even if I have been really clear, I have

(29:41):
to have a like, beyond reasonable doubt feel that you
are going to respect that. When I don't have that
agency because of the situation that I am in, and
I don't feel that with a lot of men, for one,
And so I don't play with men particularly, um often,
if at all. UM. And if I do play with men,

(30:03):
their bottoms for me, because I trust myself to respect
their consent. The light primal. So I'd like to like
wrestle and get a little rough. You could probably name
me roll up on me, but like taking a paddle
or taking your hand across my butt, You're probably gonna fight,
and not like the good pleasurable fight, like I'm really

(30:23):
trying to hurt you. So you just said the word primal,
is that it actually a term that is? So what
does that mean? Because I haven't heard that yet. Um.
Frequently it's turned with like a connection with an animal.
That's not how I find it. It's more just going
down to like that basic instinct of like using your

(30:45):
body to interact with someone else, which is probably all
of king I suppose, um. But for me, is that
I like to use my hands in my mouth a lot,
so biding, scratching, licking. I like to use my actual
strength to like lift people, and I do it in
rope to like tossing. It makes me feel powerful in control.

(31:09):
And then you see, I'm learning all these terms. I'm
working at these out now. Um. And then would you
say that because wrestling wasn't its own role. Yeah, because
there's no there are topping bottoms in primal, but it's
not as defined um, because we could be wrestling and

(31:35):
I can be topped, like if someone gets me down
on my back, I'm literally being topped. Um. And that's okay,
that's fine of course that we still have negotiations beforehand. Um.
But yeah, I wouldn't really say there's entire roles unless
we're doing like a chasing capture the people that the

(31:56):
people's being chased are usually bottoms or subsum pray, Okay,
I'm a predator, Okay, so I will chase you. Okay,
I'm trying to capture you. Okay. So this is an
actual scene that you would play out. Let's chasing because
this is a new one as well. You're bringing some
new terms to us every day chase me around the house.

(32:21):
Is there any other stuff that you UM enjoy as well?
Because you seem to have a vibarride like splashing? What
is that? Um? It's also known as like messy food play.
We have some more of our interview interviews. I should say,
we gotta get the s in there, but first we

(32:43):
have one more quick break for a workmer sponsor, and
we're back. Thank you, sponsor. Let's get back into these interviews.
Can you tell us how you discovered the pink world
and how it was something that you decided, yes, this
is something that I like, this is what I want

(33:04):
to be a part of. Kind of just give us
your origin story. Essentially, I was never interested in regular pornography.
It was not interesting to me. But I definitely reading
erotica as a young person, was drawn to the type
of erotica where there were obvious power differentials. Um So,
things like where there's like a clear authority figure like

(33:26):
a teacher or a student, or like you know, things
where there's like a martial arts instructor and their student
or something like that. Um and so then you explore
online and they're all these like groups online, and but
I distinctly remember being like, oh, I don't know that
there are real people that do this, Like I can't
you know. I wasn't interested in interacting with real people
in that way for a long time. Um, but I

(33:47):
never you know, it's funny how your journey kind of progresses,
like the things that you think you might be interested
or not necessarily, how you how you end up falling,
and what ends up being interesting to you. I certainly
never imagined that I would have such a focus on
this like fairly technical rode bondage stuff that I spent
so much of my time doing. Um. I the first

(34:08):
time I saw someone doing complex rope suspension, I was like,
what is the point of that? Like why would you
even bother with that? And now I spend I mean,
it's my primary hobby and I spent hours every week
pursuing it. So who knows. I don't think I was
ever distinctly aware that I was into any sort of
UM b D s M until after I realized I

(34:29):
was into it, and I was like, oh my gosh,
I've been into this my whole life, Like it is
one of those things. I was like, oh, yeah, all
of these things throughout my life makes sense now, like um,
but I was, you know, doing the single thing and
on dating apps and I went out with this guy
who I was like, so I'm into b D s
M and you know, identify as a dominant and I

(34:51):
don't know if that freaks you out, but if you
want to try some stuff with me, like that'd be cool.
And I decided to give it a shot. We went
on a few dates as in trigued by some of
this stuff, but then I kind of was like, I
think you're also just a jerk that you're pretending you're
getting your jerk ry out by being like, oh, I'm dumb.

(35:12):
So I was like, I want to break up with you,
but now I am fully into whatever this other stuff
might be. So how do I find that? So I
did some googling. I found fat life, which is a
social media platform for kink kinky people, um, and I
started reaching out to people in Atlanta and was like, hey,
I'm new and you seem like a real person because

(35:35):
you have you know, friends, and you go to community
events in Atlanta and your parts of these groups and
so I like, I tried very carefully as a single
woman too identify people that seemed safe and um, I
could get references from before I actually went out and
met them. So I didn't get involved in the B

(35:56):
D S M or kink scene until maybe like October.
Obloski so I'm a little baby newbi kink and I
was dating a woman at the time who went to
the club and was like, I had this life changing
experience at this kink club and you should go. And
I was like, okay, cool, let's go together. And she's like, no,
I'm not gonna be here for two months, but you
should go by yourself. And I was like, okay, cool,

(36:18):
I guess that's fine. Um. And so I went on
the Queer Women in Kink Night, which was really great
and I think the best way to get introduced as
a queer woman myself. UM. And I saw somebody tying
rope for the first time and I was in trance,
like I just could not take my eyes off of her,
and I sat there the whole night. Um. And then
like a sheepish, little like kid, I went up to

(36:40):
her and I was just like, I think you're amazing
and I don't know what you call what you're doing,
but I want to be able to do it and
I want to do it real well. Um. And she's like,
oh my god, you're so sweet. This is blah blah blah.
This is how you get involved. And so from there
it's just kind of been a snowball avalanche of getting
into the kink world. I saw out, um some other

(37:03):
riggers or rope tops UM to see like what they
did and how they got into UM I guess their
particular kink and or proclivity for rope and then just
kind of like watch five hours of YouTube videos every
day and bought some rope and started tying myself UM.
And then as I got more involved in the king community,

(37:23):
I also developed an affinity for impact UM, which is
like basically getting hit or hitting other people with all
sorts of implements, so like wouldn't implements like a wooden
spoon or something fiberglass acrylic UM, also caning, which is
apparently like an old school form of punishment and like
boarding schools, private schools, and like, as I got older,

(37:46):
I was just like, this doesn't hurt, Like this is
actually kind of like oh stinky, like okay whatever, UM.
And then revisited it at the club and I was like,
oh no, I really like this, and I also really
want to do this to somebody else UM. And then
also UM, I consider myself a dominant which means that
I like to be the person that does things to
people UM. I have. I've been called a control freak,

(38:10):
and I would also um align with that term as well.
And so having somebody relinquished that control to me is
also a really big thing for me. Um And I thought,
well of it was weird at first, um in my
own like vanilla relationships, and then I found the Kink
Club and people like this is our normal, Like the

(38:31):
vanilla world is like our our like our Superman outfit,
like Kent is kink and then like, I don't know, yeah,
Superman is the vanilla stuff. So I think that's a
little bit. I'll probably expand upon other things that I'm
interested in. But okay, so your main your dominant in
the impact world as well as the the top because

(38:52):
we learned these phrases world in the rope world, I
would say yes, um And like even in my vanilla life,
I'm a pretty dominant person. I'm also a four year
which means I like watching other people engage in their
particular kink. And I the first time that I went
to the club, or the first four or five times
I went to the club, I just watched. I just

(39:12):
watched everybody play, and I was like, oh yeah, I
like some of that are definitely not into that UM.
And after their scenes and after I felt like it
was an appropriate time. I just want up to ask
people questions. I think with the amount of tact and
common sense that you would approach anybody. UM. I don't know,
the common sense is a flower that grows often in

(39:34):
other people's gardens. But and also just to get a
little bit more candid, I wanted to be a sex
therapist for a really long time, so the fact that
kink existed and b D s M existed was never
foreign to me. I was just like, oh, other people
do that, you know UM. And I think the more
that I got to know people in the community and

(39:56):
be like, oh, you also have this regular job in
this is something that you do on this side UM
was something that I think made it safer for me
to explore and to accept UM. And then just talking
to people at those munches about how it does or
does not permeate their life or how they create those
boundaries was really big for me. And then participating like

(40:18):
really just going in asking somebody to be like, hey,
I've never tried this, would you mind giving me an introduction? UM?
And going from there and then doing more research talking
to more people, going to the club and two events,
and finally plucking up the courage to ask somebody that
knew better how I could get into it, or if
they'd be willing to talk to me and or let

(40:40):
me participate in a scene with them. So how did
you get into this world? This primal kink world? Um,
I want to use that word. It's been a few years,
maybe two or three. Anyway, So I was dating this
girl and she han't showed me out, and I was like,
I Like, she was telling me about an exploit with

(41:02):
floggers and using paddles, and I was like, oh, that
that sounds cool. Okay. So then I started talking about
there's therapists about and I was like, I really, I
think I enjoy hurting people because it's choking thing and
time people like just normal bed restraints, just really speaking
to me. Um, I say the road is like. She

(41:24):
was like, oh, that's b DS. I'm gonna for you
to a colleague who is a king specialist and she
was like, it's the whole world. I was like what.
So she sent me to a fat life when I
started scroll and I was like, oh, it's my life.
So I just started going to events and talking to people,
and I was like, Okay, I think that anyone, any
single woman who's in the dating world right now, understand safety.

(41:47):
Like you're going to meet strangers from the internet and
it's normal. It's part of dating apps, it's part of
your life. You're going to meet strangers from the internet
that want to hurt you and tie you up, and
you're like, who, I'm into that too, But now it's
really like you need to be share your being safe.
So I had safety calls with friends. Um. You know,
there's different ways you can go about that. There's there's

(42:10):
different sort of stop gaps you can put in, but
you can never be safe. And I would add to um,
just advice that idn't tend to give people around this
stuff is just you know, trying to be patient with yourself.
You know, oftentimes when you discover a new avenue of
your sexuality can be so exciting. Like I know many
people who sex wasn't interesting too until they discovered kink,
and women who were just like I didn't understand what

(42:32):
the big deal was about. And I don't know, I
never I never enjoyed it once until I had discovered kink,
right and so then you realize that you're like, oh,
this is really exciting. And so that level of energy
does encourage sometimes people to make that decisions. And so UM,
I always try to, UM give people the advice of like,
take your time, build a network of friendships first. UM,

(42:52):
try to really ingrain yourself in the community in a
way that just like you would make friends in any
other community, you know, build some relationships with people who
don't want to have sex with you. Build some relationships
with people who have other longstanding relationships who seemed like
they have been around for a while. You know. Um
I marched into the b d s M club the
first night and stood there with my hands on my
hips and said, who's going to do b DSM to me?

(43:14):
You know? And like that was that was not the best, right.
I met someone who seemed like they knew what they
were doing, and like three weeks later, I was like, wow,
that was a terrible idea. But like, people go through
this thing and they call it frenzy a lot of
the time when they're first in the community, where um,
they just want to try all the things really fast,
and UM, there are some like truly tragic traumatic outcomes

(43:35):
from that sort of behavior, and I think both of
us were fairly fortunate and that we didn't have any
of those things. But like, I cannot tell you how
many young women enter into this community and you see
them three or four times and you never see them again,
and you don't know. You just don't know what happened,
and it's probably horrible, and the things that you do
here are not good. So I mean, like just like
any other subculture, UM, there are bad actors and there

(43:57):
are predators. UM. There are some really amazing people too, though,
but you have to evaluate that and you have to
be cautious and you have to use your brain like
you would in any other environment and maybe more right. So, yeah,
I think that's a great UM segue. You already gave
some examples on how to make it a safe practice.
Would there be any other things to a new person

(44:17):
that comes in and who are really really excited and
wants to try something new, how to really UM have
it almost like a checklist? Would you tell them how
to be thorough and understanding what they're coming into. I
would say, seek education around risk mitigation and negotiation, UM,
particularly as it pertains to rope bondage which is the
stuff that we mostly focus on when it comes to

(44:39):
play because, um, it's an incredibly risky type of play,
so it can cause permittent injury. UM, and it's it's
very edgy, and that there are there are regular and
consistent injuries that occur from this type of interaction. So UM,
we always say, like, know exactly what risks you're taking.
There are some books out there, there are people you
can talk to, there are really good resources out there

(45:01):
to figure out, like what level of risk are you
willing to take in order to have these experiences to
figure out what your risk profile is and know how
to communicate that to other people. If you are not
willing to incur an injury that could keep you from
being able to do your job for six months, there
are certain things you do not want to do, and
you have to know how to say no to that, um,
and then know how to negotiate for yourself. I was

(45:22):
gonna say negotiations are key that I would tell anyone
coming into the community. I started negotiating by being like, oh,
these are my hard limits. And they were silly hard
limits that as a new person I didn't know. I
was like, don't spit in my face. I don't I
don't want that, and otherwise I'm good to go. But
I could take a chainsaw to your neck or something.
And so in one of my early impact scenes within

(45:45):
an impact is if you're like getting hit with canes
and hands and other implements, um, like spanking plus spanking plus.
So one of my early scenes doing that, you know,
I said, this is my hard limit. And he was like, well,
do you have you ever done anything like wrestling beforehand,
like a takedown scene, And I was like, no, no,

(46:05):
that sounds great. I'm interested. So we were trying this
takedown scene and he just suck or punched me in
the stomach and knocked the wind out of me completely
and I couldn't breathe and I was freaking out. And
I was like, oh, you didn't tell me I couldn't
punch you. That wasn't one of your hard limits. And
I was like, I did not know that that was
something that needed to be negotiating, um. And so you know,

(46:28):
I learned real fast that one of the better ways
to negotiate, or in my opinion for me, what works
better for me is to negotiate inclusively to so to
say this is allowed, this is loud, this is allowed,
this is loud, and like those are the things that
are allowed. Um, and if someone wants to add something
in in the middle of the scene, So it probably

(46:48):
would depend on who the person was. Sometimes I could
do in scene negotiations, and sometimes I would be like, no,
you're new. I don't want to do that because your
mental facilities also can be really impacted during a scene
and or having doorphins going crazy in your brain and
you're not quite all the way there, So um, it's
better to negotiate upfront. So is this something that's just

(47:11):
spoken or is it actually written out? Different people do
it in different ways. I think, Um, I tend to so.
I mean, obviously, when you have an established relationship with someone,
this changes, you know. I think if if Sammy and
I were going to do rope together, I would be like,
how's your body? Everything normal, let's go, you know, like
that's kind of how that would work. But in general

(47:31):
I think that it would be more like, um, you know,
if it was someone new, I might like text message
with them for a couple of days or but I
usually start with a conversation with like, so, you know,
how do you like to feel in rope? What are
what kind of experiences are you interested in having? And
you can usually tell from there if there's going to
be overlap, Like I just want to see, like what's
the interest overlap? Right? Um. And one thing I think

(47:52):
that's important that people don't always realize is like it
can still be a good negotiation if if you determine
that we shouldn't do this thing right, you know, especially
when you're pople are very new and eager, like they're
just like, oh well, I'll just do whatever you But
like having a bad experience with someone is like so
much worse than just not doing it, you know. So
I think that's a good negotiation point to um. But yeah,
so you can negotiate in whatever way it works best

(48:14):
for you. Sure. I have a friend who does like
a thorough chucklist with every single person as like cover
their ass sort of methodology. Um, And it's very strange
and interesting, but it's a little wrote for me. But like,
everyone has their own styles. So I don't mind newing
impact with a new person, because the worst thing that's
happened is they're going to hit me in a place
that doesn't feel particularly great, like it's not doesn't have

(48:37):
the cushion but with rope, Like Lily was saying, you know,
you can you can have nerve injury, and you can
have risk drop and like loose function of your wrist
for an hour or a year. Um, you can have
the same thing with your foot. Like they're they're true
risks to it that are could be life changing. So

(48:57):
you know it's I can't stress enough how important it
is to go slow and make sure that you're you
know what you're getting into. I think it's also like
if we're going to be really honest, I think also
just my purview of interacting with other people in sex
adjacent kind of things has put my guard up. I'm

(49:18):
also a very assertive person, and so I'm not the
type of person that's gonna let somebody kind of boss
me around. Like I said, I'm a control freak, Like
I need to have specific things in place that make
me feel comfortable, and then if something uncomfortable was happening,
I would have the wherewithal to be like, actually, I
have a picture of your license. I told my boyfriend

(49:39):
where I was going to be tonight. He has your address,
he knows what your government name is so if anything
goes left, just know like you will be find out.
Like you'll be found out. Um. And that's not to
say that even people that do take those UM measures
cannot have those kind of experiences. You know, people who
want to hurt people or be awful will be awful. UM.

(50:01):
But one of the things that I really appreciated, especially
in my first foray into the community, was they were like,
this particular community and this space is very consent heavy.
So even if you want to hug from somebody, you
need to ask them first, because bodily autonomy is also
something that they're very big on. It's like if you
start a scene and you get uncomfortable and you call red,

(50:23):
which is like the universal UM safe word for dungeons,
They're like, you stop immediately. There is no like um
I think she said red, Like I'm just gonna keep going.
It's like if we hear anything, it's done. UM. And
I think for a lot of women, learning the fact
that they have bodily autonomy and or the right to

(50:43):
say no to things is a foreign concept, um, just
because of how people are socialized, how women are regarded UM.
And so in this space, I feel empowered as a woman,
as a person, and as somebody that respects the right
that like a people also acknowledge my like my agency

(51:04):
and things that have to do with my body and
how I'm interacting with a space. So the dungeon that
I'm referring to is specifically a place that caters to
the b D, S, M and kink lifestyle in which
they have implements, furniture, and spaces that are conducive to
UM people playing or taking part in a scene. UM.
Dungeons could also be a space that you create in

(51:25):
your own home for that UM I'm talking about it.
I think I think the proper term would be social dungeon,
where there are areas for people to kind of just
like communicate outside of playing UM. And then there's a
big space with some subspaces that have like I don't know,
spanking benches and tables where you can do specific kinks

(51:47):
or themed rooms for other things. UM. So dungeon is
not you know, like a bloody like claw marks wall
where like there's bodies hanging from the ceiling, but as
space where UM, kinky people go to engage in kinky
things in a safe way. One of the other things
that I really love about the dungeon that we're at
is that they have education classes at this dungeon. UM

(52:09):
there are different groups that put on education courses. So
there was literally like a B D. S. M one
O one class. There was a negotiations class. There was
a UM like I don't know, a breakup in the
poly community, like who gets the toys? Who gets the
munch is the kind of thing you know, UM, And
so in those places they give you a lot of
good resources and or like gestalts for what those things

(52:33):
look like. And for negotiation, it really is just kind
of a preplay conversation where the things you talk about
are rather salient, but they are also dynamics. So while
you play this way the first time, maybe after the
seeing you debrief and something needs to be changed, UM,

(52:53):
you record it. So personally, for me, when I'm negotiating scenes,
I have a little book with the person's like name,
and then I run through um any prior injuries that
they may have had, places that they do not want
to be touched, words or phrases that are triggers for them,
UM like what they want out of the situation, what
I am willing and not willing to do in that situation, um,

(53:17):
and then leave time for them at the end to
kind of tell me how they think the scene went,
if there were any places where I miss stepped or
did something that they hadn't um thought to say before,
and then we amend that. And that's more specifically if
I think we're going to continue to play together, but
also just because I want people to have a chance
to say to me in it like a safe way

(53:39):
what they did or did not enjoy about our play together,
even if it's not going to happen again, because I
think that every experience that you have with somebody is
a learning experience. And I also want them to have
a good opinion of like how seriously I take the
fact that they were willing to give me that opportunity,
you know, um, even though they asked me to do
something to them. I so feel like it's a point

(54:01):
of not pride. I don't even know what the word
I'm looking for is, but the fact that they trusted
me enough to put themselves in that vulnerable position is
something that I need to honor um. And I think
that that's what most negotiations are about, or at least
the crux of them is like, I want to make
sure that the things that we agreed upon will make
sure that this is a great like a good situation

(54:21):
or as good as we can make it until we
get in and learn each other more. So. Yeah, And
those negotiations can change depending on what type of play
you're doing as well. They can be more in depth, um,
like if it's a partnership or an ownership as opposed
to pick up play. I think that can also change
how the negotiations go. Pick up plays exactly what you

(54:41):
think it is. It's like, hey, you have a whip. Uh,
I want to get whipped? So like how do they? Yeah,
I see what you've gotten there, Like I'm interested. I
don't really know, but like maybe give me a little
taste of this and then maybe after that They're like,
I would like to be your partner in this kind
of play. Let's negotiate what that's going to lik like
moving forward. And there are all different types of frequencies

(55:03):
and timelines and their nuances on nuances. So so when
you're doing splashing and follows the chase and capture, does
it's follow the same guidelines of negotiations? Yes, everything everything
in negotiations and it's hurt. It's more inclusive now because
it's a hard, harder language to talk about all the
things you don't want to do sometimes that you don't

(55:25):
know what you don't want to do? Is that the
way you do negotiations well as well? Yeah? I do
normally start off like what are your heart and soft limits?
It's like an absolute no, what are you willing to try?
And if I like have an idea of where I'm
trying to go out, so okay, well I can put
it in your head. Like when we was doing splashing,
I was like, Okay, you're gonna have basy food on it.

(55:46):
Can I put slime? Like? Can I open it thing
up and just support a bucket of slime in there?
Can I put it in your back? Can I kick you?
M I want to like just side kick you in
your chest with a whole bunch of slab and just
watch it. Is that? Okay? Yeah? That brings us to

(56:07):
the end of our interviews in this episode on Kink
and B D s M. We do have another episode
related forthcoming forming, so look for that. And I think
one point, I just want to drive home, even though
I think we drive it home. A ton of interview right,
concerns this whole communicative ability to consent and understand how

(56:30):
to protect one another as a community, as well as
knowing your own limits and your own non limits. Well,
we hope that people listening learned as much as we did,
and we are really grateful for all of our interviewees.
And if those who are wondering and want to ask
more questions and try to find a community of their own,

(56:52):
they did talk about fat life, Apparently that is the
one to go to just to keep you guys safe, right,
and um, we we would love to hear from any
listeners involved in this world are interested in becoming involved
in this world maybe. Uh. I'm always just like, have
you written anything about this round? You have a different
take that we would love to know about. Absolutely. You

(57:14):
can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart
media dot com. You can find us on Instagram as
stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.
Way to go, Andrew, and thanks to you for listening
Stuff Mom Never Told You. The protection of I Heart
Radios How Stuff Works For more podcasts from iHeart Radio

(57:35):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite show.