Bisexual Erasure, Part 2

Is the concept of sexual fluidity erasing bisexuality? Cristen and Caroline continue their discussion of bisexual erasure happening everywhere from academia to "Orange Is the New Black."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And first things first, this is part
two of our conversation about bisexuality and more specifically bisexual
erasier in pop culture and society at large. So in

(00:25):
our last episode we talked a lot about the history
of bisexuality, sort of how the concept of what bisexuality
is evolved, and also the history of advocacy and erasure,
and a lot of what kicked off the Erasier conversation
was not only the wonderful listener letters that we have

(00:48):
received asking that we discussed this issue, but also some
articles that we read that focused on how was a
gangbusters year for bisexual rasure not for actually portraying bisexual
people in a great light. Yeah, and before we get
further into our conversation, Caroline, could I perhaps offer a

(01:10):
definition of bisexuality from bisexual activists Robin Oaks, please, just
to give us a little bit of framework to work with,
because a lot of people just assume, Okay, bisexual just
means you're attracted to both men and women equally all
the time. Fifty fifty or three on the Kinsey scale,
right in the middle. Not so simple. So Oaks famously

(01:34):
defined it as her quote potential to be attracted romantically
and or sexually to people of more than one sex
and or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not
necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the
same degree. So just a little something to keep in

(01:54):
mind as we talk about bisexuality in pop culture and
later on about this idea of fluidity. Yeah, sexual fluidity.
And we had mentioned a couple of pop culture notes
in our first episode, specifically UH characters that appear on
screen like Piper and Orange Is the New Black, who's

(02:15):
often dismissed as either a former lesbian or just a
flat up straight girl. UM. But there are a lot
of other characters that have either had their um had
their bisexuality sort of glossed over and erased, or characters
who have done the erasing themselves, characters like Kurt on

(02:36):
Glee who dismissively said bisexuals the term that gay guys
in high school use when they want to hold hands
with girls and feel like a normal person for a change.
So it's sort of a one two punch of bisexual
erasure and stereotyping. Yeah, the whole gay, straight or lying
regurgitated over and over and over again. And I feel
like that's similarly reflected, at least in my interpretation of

(03:00):
House of Cards, where there is a spoiler alert if
you haven't seen all of House of Cards, there is
a dun dunt threesome between Frank Underwood, his wife Claire,
and their male security guard. Meets him, LL meet him?
When did you lot to come into the bedroom this evening?

(03:22):
That is kind of how it goes down. And there
have been hints throughout House of Cards of Frank Underwood's
I assumed gay predilections, even though he and Claire. You
do see him and Claire have sex. Well he I guess,
never mind, it's so true, he's having sex with women
all of the time. Why have I been assuming that
Frank Underwood is actually gay and not bisexual? Am I?

(03:44):
Have I been committing bisexual rature in my own head? Caroline?
I assumed he was gay? Is he having sex with
thoughts of fun? Well, don't you remember Mara? What's her name?
Kate Mara? But but then again, it's it's a little
difficult with a character like Frank Underwood not to get
liked off the rails here because he's willing to do
anything and anyone to get what he wants. It's true

(04:06):
he's using sex as a tool, and I think that's
been why it's assumed that his sex is not born
out of desire but rather political motives, right and power,
because the the one character that they show that he
has this like almost boyish affection for is a man

(04:28):
is another man, And so with Claire, it's almost like
two power players doing whatever they can to get their
their sexes is not loving So so yeah, interesting, interesting
how potential bisexuality can get glossed over also when just
showing how one character is power hungry. Yeah. And the showrunners, though,

(04:51):
speaking to the threesome that the Underwoods have with meat Chump,
they chalk it up to just quote whims and desires,
just swims and desires, that's all it is. And it's
the same kind of thing with Obri and Martell, who's
a the ill fated character on Game of Throne. Another
another sorry this episode is full of spoiler alerts for

(05:12):
anyone who is as behind on TV as I usually am. Yeah,
well so Abra Mar tells a great character, and he's
also a character that has an insatiable sexual appetite both
for men and for women. And he tells someone in
the show that, you know he he doesn't want to
be limited. He loves everyone. Everyone's attractive. He just wants

(05:35):
to be with beautiful people. It doesn't really matter. And
basically critics and bisexual advocates have pointed at that character
and said, why are you glossing over his bisexuality? He's bisexual,
whereas plenty of other people would say, why are you
raising a stink? He's sexually fluid. Isn't that good too? Well,
it seems like it's again that um conflating fluidity with

(05:58):
sex drive. I mean, he's a guy who wants to
have just a ton of sex, which does seem to
play into some stereotyping of bisexual is just of just
needing a label for their hyper sexuality. And another character
whose bisexuality is sort of used for for ill, not

(06:20):
for good, according to Amy's Immerman. Ever, at The Daily
Beast is a character named Kate from the movie Dodgeball.
So everyone points out that here's this character who makes
out with a woman and she's the butt of a
ton of lesbian jokes, but then at the end a
spoiler reveals herself to be bisexual, thus becoming available to

(06:46):
the male protagonist. And and this is you hear this
a lot when when you're talking about bisexuality and its
depiction in the media that essentially, uh, lady, bisexuals are
cool according to media standards, men not so much, and
British journalist Mark Simpson says it's unquestionable that female bisexuality

(07:09):
is today much more socially acceptable than male bisexuality, and
in fact frequently positively encouraged, both by many voyeuristic men
and an equally voyeuristic pop culture. It's that whole thing
of like, well, but okay, she's still it's it's it's
hot when two chicks makeout, and plus she's also still
available to me as a man, exactly. You know, bisexual women,

(07:31):
there's really girls who can hang, you know, and make
out with each other from time to time when we
really want to see it. Um. Now, when it comes
to representation, just for some numbers, glad that a tally
of shows from and found on broadcast networks bisexual characters

(07:52):
made up of all LGBT characters and most were women.
Not surprisingly on Cable, Uh, they made up roughly the
same of LGBT characters and again mostly women. And that
twenty one, by the way, is not a huge number.
That runds up to fourteen individual characters, so still not

(08:16):
a huge not a huge amount. And as we've seen
and just naming a couple of characters, the depictions that
are there are necessarily always cut and dry, nor are
they always positive. Yeah, although Casey Quinlin, writing at The
Atlantic in October, does think it's getting better. She says

(08:37):
while the representations are still rare and the portrayals of
bisexuality tend to be unrealistic, and those portrayals are mostly
women because, as Mark Simpson points out, it's more palatable
for our culture. Quote, some breakthroughs have taken place in
the past few years, and so she cites Nolan Ross

(08:58):
on The now defunct Avenge, Klie Torres on Gray's Anatomy,
and Colinda's Sharma on The Good Wife, And in talking
about Clinna Sharma, for instance, um she praises how it's
her sort of cold nature in general that leaves leads
her to be sort of a love them and leave

(09:19):
them type rather than it just being her wild bisexuality
that makes her want to have one night stands with whomever. Yeah,
and I mean, and I think, uh, I used to
watch Gray's Anatomy, used to I quit it like a
bad habit a long time ago. But I did love
the character of Callie Torres. She's definitely not portrayed as
someone who changes partners on a whim. She's portrayed as

(09:43):
a warm and intelligent person who happens to have loved
men and happens to have loved women as well. Yeah,
it sounds like bisexuality in those contexts isn't being fetishized? Right? Yeah? Well,
I mean, and that's Shonda rhymes to it for you? Well, yeah,
I love Shana, I love Shanda oh Man. What a
dream stuff I've never told you guess that would be.

(10:06):
Are you listening? Um? But yeah, So, Amy Zimmerman, who
we just mentioned, isn't as convinced as Casey quinlin is
that things are getting better, She writes, Our mainstream media
reinforces the notion that bisexuality is either a fun of
voluntary act of experimentation or a mere myth through two
tried and true tactics misrepresenting and oversimplifying bisexual characters until

(10:30):
they're either punchlines or wet dream fodder, or simply refusing
to portray bisexual characters in the first place. I mean it,
it confuses people. People are easily confused, and I not
knowing anything about anything. I'm sure there are some show
runners out there who were like, well, we don't know
how to treat this, or we don't know how to
write a good bisexual character, so we'll just either gloss

(10:53):
over it, or we'll make them more palatable as that
kind of hot and slutty girl character trope, you know,
or or we'll just make them day well. I wonder
too how that would interact with network standards, with advertisers
who might not be as keen on showing a bisexual
man or an authentic bisexual character where it is normalized,

(11:16):
rather than something that's just seen as, oh no, this
is just a this is a real ratings grabber for
bisexual sweep sweek. Um and Zimmerman also cites the Larry
King interview with Anna Paquin and which he asked her
whether she is a quote non practicing bisexual because she

(11:38):
is what she married. She's married to the dude right
from True Blood. Yeah, she married her vampire Bill, Anna
and Bill, and she seems a little confused when she
responds that she's in a monogamous relationship with a man
and basically says, listen, Larry, my my sexual orientation is
not the same as my sexual part or like your

(12:00):
orientation isn't who you sleep with, like that whole that
whole thing. Actually, but there's not only eratia of bisexuals
happening in the media, on screen, in articles, it's also
happening within the LGBT community. You know, we mentioned plenty
of stereotypes that both gay and straight people hold of

(12:21):
self identified bisexuals, But what else contributes to l g
and possibly T folks dismissing the bees. So, again, citing
puresearch survey of LGBT Americans we started in our last episode,

(12:41):
it found that bisexuals are less likely to quote view
their sexual orientation as important to their overall identity, and
so researchers think that perhaps that might contribute to attitudes
that bisexuals aren't as invested in the LGBT community. So
you have l g and possibly T saying, you know,

(13:04):
be get out of here. You're not really part of
the cause you're like hanging out with your opposite sex
partner and everything's gravy for you. I'm so picturing like
a schoolhouse rock moment of of big letters, big block
cartoon letters just like yelling at each other, like get
out of here. Can't all the letters get along? Feel
like the L G and T get up from the
school lunch table when B tries to sit down with

(13:27):
this tray anyway, Um, kind of on the same note,
you know, we talked a lot about the New York
Times magazine article by Ben Watt Dennis A. Lewis in
our first episode, and he talks to a guy who's
associated with the American Institute of Bisexuality who identifies as
gay for quote a host of emotional reasons. For one thing,

(13:50):
it simplifies my life, this guy says. This guy that
Dennis Lewis talked to says that, Yeah, I've I've been
attracted to women. I just just last week I saw
a woman that I felt an attraction for. But I'm
I'm gay and I've identified as gay for decades now.
And it was just interesting that that quote and that
feeling was framed more in terms of you know, it's

(14:12):
just easier. Kind of what I just positive about TV
show runners about was just easier to to be one
way or the other, to be black or white, instead
of being in that gray spectrum in the middle. And
that was echoed two in something that activists and speaker
Robin Oakes told Dennis A. Lewis about how she was

(14:32):
initially afraid to come out as by to her lesbian
friends in college, saying, quote, they said that bisexuals couldn't
be trusted, that they would inevitably leave you for a man.
Had I come out as lesbian, I could have been
welcomed with open arms, taken to parties, invited to join
the softball team, the lesbian red carpet, if you will.
But for me to say I was a lesbian would

(14:54):
have required that I dismissed all of my previous attractions
to men as some sort of false consciousness. So I
didn't come out. But it's more than just fear of
stereotypes or a lack of trust. As many researchers, including
Lisa Diamond, have pointed out, it's almost an issue of
credibility and community, and that a lot of anti LGBT

(15:18):
rights people, and a lot of people who are also
pushing against same sex marriage have argued that if you
can go either any always sexually or romantically, then that
sort of, in their minds, dismisses the born this way concept,
and a lot of a lot of advocates have said, no,

(15:39):
we need to be able to argue that we are
born this way and that we can't choose to choose
who we love or who we have sex with. It
this is just how we are. And even Lisa Diamond
has pointed out we need to find a better argument
than born this way, because she has done so much
research into sexual fluidity and has even seen her research

(16:00):
picked up by the people who were fighting the breakdown
of DOMA a couple of years ago, that she's like,
we we need to be able to come up with
with better and different arguments. Well, isn't that so interesting
then that a broader range of sexual attraction and romantic

(16:22):
attraction as well, because it's who you want to have
sex with and it's also who you want to form
relationships with. Um that informs all of this is seen
as choice that then is twisted into this idea of well,
you know, it's not a sexual orientation. There's nothing biological
about this. These people are simply you know, picking and

(16:44):
choosing whomever they want. Um. So it's so it's high
over and over and over again through this whole bisexual
erase your conversation about how, I mean, just how this
logic is often so twisted and how much we really
need to underscore differences between orientation and attraction and gender

(17:07):
identity and all of these different things that are going
on and often mixed up to argue against bisexuality. And
and this is something too that's been investigated in academia
and on the more theoretical side as well, because in
terms of queer theory, bisexuality has not gotten nearly as

(17:29):
much attention in terms of the l g B, t
q UM spectrum of things. And there's this a particular
paper that came out in two thousand that's sided often
by law professor Kenji as No, called the Epistemic Contract
of Bisexual Erasure in the Stanford Law Review. And Caroline,

(17:50):
can you can you break down what you Sho is
talking about, because it's all about this the so called
episdemic contract, which is fancy seek for what well basically
so epistemic is defined as of or related to knowledge
or knowing, and he defines this so called epistemic contract

(18:14):
as an agreement essentially obviously unspoken unless there are meetings
that I haven't been to. Yeah, are there are there
straight meetings we're not getting invites to. That's totally fine. Um,
But it's basically this unspoken agreement between straight people and
gay people that bisexuals will be made invisible in order
to do things such as stabilize sexual orientation, stabilize identity, uh,

(18:42):
stabilize the importance of sex as a distinguishing trait in
our society and in our community building, thus specifically for
gay people in the fight for civil rights. So it
sounds like there's this I mean speaking you know, kind
of symbolically like there's this, uh, this binary committee saying,

(19:03):
you know what, we need the binary. The binary is
good for all of us because it organizes things and
it's easier for us to conceptualize than a spectrum. Yes,
and it's easier for TV show producers. Um. But yeah,
So so you should know. Wrote this paper after having
taught classes related to sexual orientation and the law, and

(19:26):
he wrote that the view of sexual orientation as a
spectrum from exclusive heterosexuality to exclusive homosexuality. Encourages us to
think of that binary as stretching like an accordion to
accommodate those ever finer gradations of desire, and he says
that we must recognize people in the middle, for instance,

(19:48):
a sexuals and bisexuals, because it's too easy to leave
them out of the dialogue when it comes to things
like the fight for same sex marriage or civil rights,
or or really anything that could come before a judge.
It's super easy to forget all of those people in
that gray area in the middle and only talk about
things in terms of gay or straight. Yeah, I mean,

(20:10):
and talking about things that come before a judge. I'm sure.
Parental custody is another big one. Um. But there's also
this concern too that there is a study about in
the Journal of Bisexuality in two thousand twelve that when
it comes to that accordion that you're talking about all
those individual gradations, that more visibility of all of that

(20:31):
and these arguments of a more fluid uh perspective on
sexuality will inadvertently omit bisexuality. Yeah. Writing in the Journal
of Bisexuality in Estra Rappaport basically breaks it down by
saying that the psychoanalytic view of bisexuality is quite removed

(20:54):
from the experiences the lived every day, day and day
at experiences of actual bisexual people, but also that researchers
blending psychoanalysis and queer theory end up omitting bisexuality in
this discussion of sexuality as fluid, Because certainly the discussion
of sexuality is as fluid is not a negative, but

(21:16):
when it omits people who self identify as bisexual, then
that is worth some further investigation. Yeah, and she emphasizes
the importance of getting by identified researchers voices heard, because
I mean, it really seems like when it comes to
lgbt Q issues, I would say we there's still a

(21:38):
lot of catching up to do in terms of of
the b especially when we're talking from an academic perspective,
and a lot of language has been developing around this
as well. We've been mentioning fluidity a lot, and we're
going to talk about that the tension a little bit

(21:58):
between this idea sexual fluidity and bisexuality. When we come
right back from a quick break, So is sexual fluidity
erasing bisexuality. You know, we've cited Lisa Diamond a couple

(22:20):
of times already. She's got some pretty impressive research author
that I encourage anyone to to google. UM but the
Advocate sites Diamond, who's a psychology and gender studies professor
at the University of Utah, in describing the research that's
going on today, and they write that there are now
several studies that have found that ten to fourteen percent
of American women describe themselves as mostly but not completely heterosexual,

(22:45):
and six to nine percent of American men who self
identify the same way. And Diamond points out that studies
in other countries have found the same general range. And
something that Diamond's research partner rich sad and Williams has
pointed out too, is how, especially for the younger people
they're researching bisexuality, quote doesn't quite capture a lot of

(23:10):
what they're feeling. So, for instance, he encountered young men
who might say, I'm really tracted to women, but I
wouldn't rule out the possibility of a guy, which does
remind me of a guy that I dated who described
himself as hetero flexible for exactly that reason. UM and
seven Williams studies led him to conclude that quote, heterosexual, bisexual,

(23:34):
and gay lesbian individuals do not constitute the universe of
sexual orientation. So maybe by advocates admit fluidity and bisexuality
are linked. Yeah. One American Institute of Bisexuality board member
told the advocate quote, I think that fluidity is simply
a way to express the gray area that reality really is.

(23:58):
I think that fluidity is a good way of talking
about bisexuality. Fluidity in reality refers to a range, and
I think that's good. And this whole conversation around fluidity
and bisexuality and what is the appropriate language reminded me
of a New York Times article that I think Diamond

(24:19):
also referenced in one of her interviews with gay researchers
who have called for an end to using the phrase homosexuality.
And this was something that started in the early gay
rights movement because homosexuality, that word was pathologized so much
in old research, you know, used to describe something that

(24:44):
was bad and harmful and something that should be treated
and removed um and also the fact that sex is
inherent in homosexuality, and so it made all of the
focus on gay rights, not about human rights and the
well being of people, but rather about sex and it

(25:04):
kind of sex they're having. So there's similarly this question
of whether or not bisexuality can't is also misleading in
that way of focusing and refocusing these conversations and scientific
studies on sex rather than the people. Well, yeah, it
focuses not only on sex because sex is in the word,

(25:26):
but also that binary, which because buy is in the word. Yeah,
we're having fun with words today on stuff Mo'm never
told you. And as as Diamond and many other researchers
would point out, there's obviously more than just two things
going on there. There's it's bigger than a binary. It
is a spectrum. It is fluid. That doesn't discount the

(25:49):
fact of bisexual people exist and identify as such. But
Diamond has some great research into fluidity and gender, and
she published a study called I was wrong exclamation point.
Men are pretty darn sexually fluid to exclamation point, and
she says she was shocked when she realized that men

(26:12):
are basically, for the most part, just as sexually fluid
as we've always assumed women to be. And writing about
this the New York Times magazine said she was surprised
to find that almost as many men transitioned at some
point from a gay identity to a bisexual, queer or
unlabeled one as did from a bisexual identity to a
gay identity. And so it's interesting to read about this

(26:34):
sort of like you know, we've mentioned in accordion Kristen.
But it's also interesting to look at this research as
like almost like moving on an advocus, like all these
little colored dots moving moving back and forth on this spectrum.
Because in her research and then and then a lot
of other research into sexuality and fluidity and bisexuality, it's

(26:55):
like the rarest of the rare to find someone who
is quote unquote here straight or pure gay. Uh, And
it's way more common to find people who are kind
of moving back and forth as ending up in sort
of this unlabeled territory of like I sure I was
married to a man, but now I've you know, quote

(27:16):
unquote entered bisexuality in dating women, and I'm just gonna
kind of hang out here now. Well. And we should
also note to how that the reason why uh diamond
diamond study title is I was wrong when are pretty
darn sexually fluid too, is because it's such a new
idea even right now sitting here in that that exists

(27:39):
among men because of the way that science had approached
sort of measuring sexuality, and basically the the go to
method of that is to hook up you know, men's
penises to these little sort of like a blood dilation
gauges to see how engorged they become, and show them porn,

(28:00):
and they show them gay porn, they show them straight porn,
and they show them lesbian porn, all kinds of porns.
They're just watching porns hooked up to penis and gorge
measurement tools. That's the scientific term for it, anyway, and
and then show showing how, oh well, they're either really
into gay porn according to how much blood is rushing

(28:21):
into their penis right now, or they're really into they're
watching you know, they're watching women in the straight porn.
And so it's it's been really it's kind of been
rudimentary in a way, right, And but also, I mean,
in addition to all that, so many people have said,
why are we looking at bisexuality or or fluidity from

(28:44):
purely uh, penis gages exactly, or or even the pupil
dilation studies of of you know, your pupils dilate when
you're really attracted to what you're looking at. Are you're
really excited about what you're looking at? Caroline's peoples are
huge right now, Oh my god, attracted um because so
many people point out that there's more to it. There's

(29:06):
more to it than just who you're having sex with
or who you want to have sex with. As anyone
who's ever been in a relationship with anyone could attest,
there's so many more levels of your relationship than just
the sexual aspect. Sure, you hope and want to be
sexually attracted to your partner, of course, but there's also
just knowing and loving and accepting that person. And so

(29:27):
a lot of people are saying, well, yeah, I might
be you know, this degree of sexually attracted to men,
but I'm also this degree of romantically attracted to women,
and the two are never quite mutually exclusive. Well, and
I guarantee you that twenty years from now, when all
of this research is going to be based on our

(29:50):
generation and younger, the data will be completely different. Because
what Robin Oaks and other people have pointed out is
that when you talk to young, younger people, It's not
such a big deal. We're far more His generation is
far more open and accepting, an inquisitive of all of

(30:10):
these spectrum labels, and are far more open to this
idea of fluidity, whether that means bisexuality for them, or
pan sexuality or queer identity, whatever it is um as
opposed to the more rigid minded generations of the past,

(30:31):
who have really had a hard time seeing beyond Kinsey's
sheep and goats right off fluffy, Um yeah, I mean.
And and the more that anyone reads about this, talks
about this, studies this, the more that the concept of
a spectrum is normalized and makes sense, and the more

(30:54):
that people our age younger, even younger than that, future people,
we'll start to to kind of grasp the idea of like, Okay,
well this is the world does not exist on a
binary for anything that there's so many shades in between,
especially for sexuality. I mean, the zie Goats, get it, Caroline,

(31:14):
come on, the Ziegat you know, at eleven weeks, there
with it, super with it. But this is also too though,
you know, a call for better bisexual representation, the end
of biration, all these things that we've been talking about,
because there is no question that these people exist. You know,

(31:35):
we we just kind of need to get over our
hang ups, maybe about language and the need. It just
seems like there's this driving need to put everybody in
as few boxes as possible, Like what, why do I
mean to be in a box? Yeah? I mean it
makes for better like closet organization, That's true. See what
I did there. I could use more boxes in my

(31:57):
house and sense. Yeah, I definitely could use some our
home organization as well. But anyway, I mean, I think
we will get there in terms of maybe not getting
over our desire to put people in in various boxes,
but but maybe more accepting of the fact that the
boxes are different shapes than bigger and longer and shorter
and whatever, um. You know. As research from people like

(32:20):
Lisa Diamond gains traction, and as people like the American
Institute of Bisexuality help fund more studies and bring attention
to these issues, maybe we can get past the point
of only literally studying arousal and remember that their attraction, love, sex,
all of the stuff is more multifaceted than just the

(32:43):
penis meter. Yeah, not focusing so much on the sex
of bisexuality, and we really want to hear again from
bisexual listeners, queer listeners, pan sexual listeners. No, I'm not
equating all the same things. I'm just asking for your
feed back, all of you listening and and gay listeners
as well. And you know what, everybody, everybody, we want

(33:06):
to hear your inclusive your thoughts, all of your inclusive thoughts,
because I mean, this is where we were clearly at
a point of having a cultural conversation about this, and
I really want to hear the voices out there, So
send us your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and

(33:28):
we've got a couple of messages to share with you
when we come right back from a quick break and
now back to the show. Well, Kristen, I have some
more letters here for you, uh, in reference to our
Single Women and Single by Choice episodes, I have a
letter here from Jody who says, I noticed in your

(33:50):
references that there were very few qualitative studies in which
women who are single by choice were interviewed for their
reasons for being single. As a researcher who believes that
in order to really understand people, you need to go
straight to the source and get really deep information. I
was saddened to hear how much time had been dedicated
to describing single women, with very few single women actually
being interviewed talk about man splaining I myself, I'm a

(34:13):
woman who is chosen to be single, largely because I
haven't met a man who has the kindness I seek
in a partner, lives a similar lifestyle, and who lives
in the same city and region. Do I think I'm
missing out and not living the life I want to live.
I suppose that if I were looking for someone to
come in and make my life better, I would be
missing out. But my life is already as good as
it can get, so I don't need that. I'm looking

(34:34):
for someone to join me in my already great life,
to share experiences and to build memories with until I
find Mr. Wright. I have a number of relationships with
men that are very meaningful to me and satisfying. It
is frustrating, though, that for women, relationships are defined is
either committed a long term and married or invalid. I've
always wanted to get married, but being married isn't the
most important aspect of my life. So many of the

(34:57):
studies you cited, which I don't believe, we're adequately pleaded.
We're based on the assumption that getting married was high
on the list of priorities for the ladies, and that
a woman's life has to shift once marriage occurs. I
grew up with parents who pushed me to be independent
so that being with a man could be a choice,
and I view the values they taught me as a gift. However,
I do recognize my ability to choose as a social

(35:18):
privilege and acknowledge that not everyone had the upbringing that
I had. I don't have children, and because I expect
to marry a man, I certainly am not having to
battle the legal system to ensure that the family I
build remains in place should I become sicker injured. I
was surprised that you ladies didn't spend more time talking
about the benefits of getting married, because it is a
very important legal issue for gay couples. Finally, with regards

(35:40):
to the social commentary associated with women who wait to
get married, my dad and I had quite the come
to Jesus meeting when he told me he thought I
was being too picky, and I told him, are you
telling me I don't deserve to have exactly what I
want in life? Telling women that they're being too picky
is insulting and devalues their worth. We ladies are capable
of identifying what we want and evaluating men for whether

(36:01):
or not they're the right ones for us. We are
awesome and deserve exactly what we want. Finally, as a
professional woman, my general experience has been that my lady
peers have trouble finding men to marry because we can't
seem to find men who are equally successful but who
don't want us to put our careers on hold and
play back up to their careers. The quote unquote successful
and ideal men my friends and I meet seem to

(36:23):
mostly be looking for personal assistance, which does not match
what I'm looking for. Single by choice for the women
I know, is generally the result of not being able
to find a man who respects and values our success
and commitment to ourselves. We think the unmarried women problem
mostly isn't with us, it's with the expectations men have
for us should we agree to get married. For many
of us, it is second best because we can't get married,

(36:46):
because we can't find the kind of men we seek.
So thank you, Jody. So I've got to let her
here from Sharon and she writes. Your podcast on single
by Choice really got me thinking about my own choices
and those of my friends. Well, I'll admit that I
been paired up for a long time. I met my
husband at university. I've always had single girlfriends. I would
like to say that I always accepted them for who

(37:07):
they were and not their relationship status. But I didn't.
I did judge them. I did think, Gosh, when is
you going to find the right guy? For that? I'm
very sorry. I would never think that now those girl
friends who either didn't find the right guy or gal, No,
I'm jealous of their freedom. I've been married for fifteen
years and have two children, and I already know and

(37:28):
a voice it freely. If I ever find myself single again,
I have no intention of pursuing further relationships. I love
my husband and children, but being on my own sounds
pretty darn awesome. I chose married with children. I doubt
I would have been content without them, But in a
parallel universe, I'm deeply envious of the me that stayed
on her own, and it's happy with that decision. I

(37:49):
look forward to a future that doesn't push us all
to pair up, get married, and make babies. If that's
what you want, great I did. But would I have
if society didn't tell me that I should. I'll never know.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if being single or childless was
fully supported by society? I believe that will happen eventually.

(38:10):
So thanks for sending us your thoughts and experiences, Sharon,
and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot com is our email address
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including
our sources so that you can learn more about bisexuality
and bisexual erasure, head on over to stuff Mom Never

(38:31):
Told You dot com for more on this and thousands
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