December 3, 2025 • 26 mins
Ria Thundercloud's 2022 children's book Finding My Dance follows her journey in dance, from Indigenous to classical, and motherhood.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I welcome to Stuff
I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio and today for
our book Club, which may or may not come out December.
You know, holidays coming around, a lot of scheduling happening.
(00:28):
We are talking about a beautiful children's book from twenty
twenty two, Finding My Dance, written by Rhea Thundercloud and
illustrated by Khalila J.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Fuller.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It follows the story of a young Indigenous woman, Wakeja
Haja Peewinga, which is Rio's ho Chunk name, and her
journey from a child to an adult with a child,
and her different experiences with dance, as well as her
becoming a mother. It is largely autobiographical based on Thundercloud's
(01:01):
own experiences with dance. She is a professional Indigenous dancer.
You can look up videos of her really amazing and
thank you to the read along of this book that
she does, which is really lovely and very helpful. For
pronunciations and thank you. We always try to get those right,
(01:21):
but sometimes you can't find them anywhere, but here. It's wonderful.
You can look it up, just fantastic. You can also
look up photographs she does dance from both northern and
southern styles of Indigenous dances, which honors her heritage. And
she's also she's just done a lot of other stuff.
(01:43):
She's collaborated with PBS. She's talked about missing and murdered
Indigenous women. She's talked about Indigenous sensuality and sexuality. She's
got a lot of interviews and things that you can find.
So look her up and also look this book. It's
really really lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It is.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, because this is a shorter book, this will be
a shorter episode, but always recommend it. I highly recommend it.
So Ria this and also the character who again that's
her name, her ho Junk name. She is from the
(02:24):
Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin and the San Dio Pueblo
in New Mexico, and as early as four, her mother
encouraged her to get into dancing. She gifted her this
orange jingle dress, which is a traditional style of dress.
Her mother told her that the dress was healing and
would bless anyone who watched her dance in it. She
(02:46):
talks about the power and importance of dancing in a
powow circle, which is something she does, I believe. At
the age of four, she starts very early, while she
was nervous the first time. With the support of her family,
she had a wonderful experience and went on tour doing
their dances and she stayed with friends and family along
(03:09):
the way. She traveled all over. When she was thirteen,
she received her fancy shawl, which is a type of
shawl that is reminiscent of a butterfly's wings in movement
and in looks. Wakaja then tries all different types of
dance styles from modern to jazz, everything in between, and
she was and is successful too, making it to a
(03:33):
competitive team after an audition and winning a prestigious award
with her very first dance solo. So it's just a
story of her falling in love with dance, finding all
these different types of dance and finding a way to
(03:53):
express herself, stay true to her heritage, connect with other
people and travel and you know, ultimately tell this story
and yes she does have a child at the end
and talks about how she what she wants for her
(04:17):
and what she wants when it comes to her journey,
whatever that might look like, how she wants that to
be for her, and and the way she's taking to
improve it. Versus what she what her journey was. So
that's it. It's beautiful, it's beautifully illustrated.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Illustrations are gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yes, yes, I like how. I like how. It's just
a lot of different formats.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So in some it will be like a two pager
and a really colorful like pow wow circle, and some
it's like a bunch of smaller illustrations on one page.
That's just a lot of he variety that I really appreciated.
So the themes, I would say, the big theme is
a dance that was art or expression.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
She is.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's just something she immediately loved and wanted to get into,
and people in her life supported her in but she
just talked about how immediately she wanted this and she
knew that she wanted this, and to see her journey
of all of the different things she tried, she she
(05:39):
has this. She has a quote in there dance isn't
one thing.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And she also.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Expresses kind of her her hardship and trying to fit
into classical dance styles because they were much more rigid
than she was used to. They had much more rules,
and that was not how she grew up in these
indigenous dance styles.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Right, I've talked about how I enjoyed dancing and is
something that helps me my anxiety. But when we talk
about the root of dance and where it came from
(06:23):
and its forms, and we don't give enough credit for
its origins and its beginnings and why they did it.
These were traditional, almost like religious, a part of their culture,
and I think throughout the years, not necessarily like in
a bad way, but become because it has become more
of a hobby, more of an exercise. We talk about
(06:43):
with yoga, we talk about with meditation, that it became
more entertainment rather than seeing the root of what it was.
And I think she explores a lot of that in
her own childhood. Of course, like I'm going deeper than
what the book is actually saying, but she talks about
origins and her connections to her ancestry through dance through nature,
(07:04):
and that was kind of the intent of dance to
begin with. And we talk about that with like how
folk art and folk dancing and music came from the
pleas of you know, enslaved people bringing their culture and
trying to connect back to their culture which was stolen
from them. And again for many of the Indigenous people
was not only stolen, it was trying to be eradicated
(07:28):
or erased. And also they were like they made fun
of it. They made it into such a way that
even hearing the word pow wow, which is an amazing ceremony,
and you hear more about it and like it is sacred.
But because of the way white culture and white supremacy
as taking these words and like believes or ideals, they
have caused this almost like backlash and what it is
(07:52):
and a way of illegitimizing what it truly is. And
when we talk about cultural appropriation, why using that terms
are saying get together is is really offensive. And while
we have to pay attention to what this narrative does
because they are trying to destroy a culture which is
so deeply ingrained and so deeply a part and rich
(08:12):
part of their nature, and that they're returning to that
they are actually being praised for again like it's kind
of come back to fashion to a noting that this
is a beautiful ceremony that should be looked with reverence
and that should only be done by Native people with
those types of roots. But it is interesting because we
(08:34):
talk about classical it is kind of like it's pretty,
don't get me wrong. And there's also roots of that
in ancestral dancing for other formats, but it got whitewashed
and become a show and tell type of thing. I
guess is a way instead of seeing what dance could be.
And it is interesting, especially when you have whitewashed where
(08:57):
she was like learning and she's great, she's a great answer,
like she knows she's gotten awarded for all these different
types of solos and such, but having some of those
parts that she doesn't connect with it, how it does
seem difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And I think that says a lot.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Again, this is going real deep into it, but that
when we talk about things like this, how beautiful important
it is, and why it needs to be noted to
young children, because I feel like that's when you really
feel the magic of it, when you connect you know.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, yeah, and you touched on a lot of stuff
that we're going to come back to, but yeah, I mean,
I do I agree that when you're young. That's when
I was in dancing class and until I got too
self conscious about my body that it was.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It felt very freeing and I was like, undoubtedly I
was doing a much more classical type. But when you're
younger and it kind of feels like I get to
wear this and there's this music and I get to
move in this way. And it wasn't necessarily strict because
I was really young, so it was it did feel
(10:13):
pretty magical. I remember those moments of thinking, I'm so
excited to do this, So I do think, yeah, when
you're younger, not that you can't find it at any time,
but it is a special like it feels really like fun.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
And also you get to do it with your friends
hopefully hopefully like you get to do with people who
feel that same way with you. So as a class,
you're doing these fun classes unless you know, things can
go awry often, but if you're truly enjoying it and
allow to enjoy it for what it is, I just
feel like a connection.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, it does. It does.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And outside of the book, in an interview, Thundercloud said
one of the reasons that she loves dance is that
she would get all in her her mind and this
was a way of being present with her body. And
I think that that that just made so much sense
(11:15):
to me because that's how I feel when I go
hiking because I have to focus on every the next
step and the next step and the next step, and
it does help me get out.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Of my head, which can be difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I won't why, but if you can do it, it's
really nice. And afterwards I often feel very refreshed, like
I just needed that moment of being present with my body. Yeah.
I think it's really important. It used to be so
(11:48):
good about stretching, but I've fallen off. The last time
I stretched and it was really nice. I was like, Yep,
there's a reason why I did this all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
She also talks about finding connection and communication through art
and preserving culture that way. That is, yeah, very very important.
But she's a big proponent of finding that communication because
she was shy. She talked about feeling very shy, which
(12:24):
she later kind of expounded on and said also I
was the only indigenous person. But we'll talk about that
more in a second, but at the time she was
interpreting it as shy and dance was a way that
she could communicate. So here's a quote. I could always
dance it out and feel better, which yeah, again, and
(12:47):
using dance as another language, which I really love how
she talks about that.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
We used to do that in a.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Not by not the same level by any means, but
in college, I in a group that was just about
international communication, connecting with people might not speak your language,
and we did. We would make dances to communicate, which
some of them I still know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And it was college. I will stick with you. You
think about some.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Of the routines that I did as a kid with
my friends who were in dance, and I wasn't with
a great number for footloose.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Oh I bet you did.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Anyway, I love that. I love it.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Uh. And then it kind of ends with this message,
I am beautiful thunder woman, and dance will always be
a part of me. I've heard really coming into her
own of this is who I am, and dance is
a part of it. And she talks about feeling the
history through it, and feeling ancestors through it, ancestors watching
(13:56):
over you and doing these dances that people before you
had done and preserving them and presenting them across the country,
which I love. And she also subscribes being gifted a
set of eagle wings and the importance of that because
eagles fly higher than any bird and they take your
(14:20):
messages up to the sky. And another thing she touches
on that I love is quote it felt wonderful to
see the changes of Mother Earth as she was traveling,
just seeing all of these different environments, locations and nature
being important in general, which we've discussed at length when
(14:44):
we talk about Indigenous women on this podcast, but it
is and appreciating that and protecting that as much as
you can, right, Yeah, they.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Like to that. Yeah, I did love also, And she
was talking and I think we're going to talk about
it in a second, about the fact that her brother
was so encouraging and I love that when you see
Indigenous dance and when you see the ceremonies, it's about
warriors and warriorhood and the matriarch and and seeing that
represented from both of them and how important it is
(15:21):
on both those notes. And like again when we talk
about mother Earth and the fact that they based their
their lineage on the matriarch, I think this also, This
dance also played a huge part in that conversation, and
we know that in general, their rituals have a lot
of that as a part of their forefront in their
storytelling too, So it is I love seeing that family
(15:43):
part as also like the separate parts of like that,
I'm like, that's really Yeah. She was like empowered and.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Ready to go. Yeah, I did love when her brother
came up turned and was like you got this and
hard and she did and.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
She's So this brings us to identity, which is also
a huge theme in the book. As mentioned, she was
(16:19):
often the only indigenous woman and any school dance, whatever
it was, she says, sometimes I felt like an outsider.
In the book an interviews, she said like, no, I
want the house side, right, but and her kind of
interpreting that as I'm shy. And also yes, she didn't
(16:46):
correct people on the pronunciation of her name at first.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
She later did.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
The author this is not in the book, but the
author describes going on a high school field trip to
a reservation where the other students like you were kind
of talking about Samith that made fun of the dance
and song, and for her that was just such a
that they were laughing at this thing that was her
(17:12):
identity or culture, part of her whole life of it's
something she loved and her fellow students just laughing at it.
And yeah, she at the end of the book she
writes about how after her daughter was born, she would
correct people who mispronounced it, and so that's sort of
(17:36):
the trying to build that better.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
World for her. But she has started to correct people
on her own name too, and she did in the book.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Ye M right.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I find it interesting because when she talks about again
going from what she loved, learned in love with her
own cultural dances and ancestral dances, and then learning contemporary
dances and know realized she is also good at that,
but also realizing how different it was and I could
not imagine. And I think she kind of alludes to
that with that being like, I don't feel like I'm
a part of this classical was hard and understanding that
(18:11):
her dances are often invalidated by those types of schools
and competitions because they're very whitewash the man I keep
saying that term, but it's true in that it gets
taken into being like that's not a real dance, this
is dance type of conversation. And I'm wondering if that,
like hearing that, seeing that being on trips like that
(18:32):
where they invalidate that, like they would celebrate her championship
for ballet, but not for being warrior dancing like any
of those ways, and seeing how to figure out to
meld those two types of communities together. When she loved
dance in general, like she loved any form, and that's
true appreciation in that understanding, like community, like to love
(18:54):
dance is to love all dance, even if you're not
great at it, to know and learn the difficulty then
ciation of contemporary ballet, hip hop, all of these things,
and ancestral rights like doing indigenous dancing in loving that,
I think definitely as people go traveling the world as
she did, they did appreciate it more. But in general,
(19:18):
the popular, like the populace in general, does not. And
so her trying to figure those two things out while
being in a community that she loves that doesn't love
her or her world is an interesting aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, absolutely, because she does.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
She does touch on that very briefly of the I
felt like I couldn't dance my indigenous dance right, and
that would never fly in this very white world.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And so.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I'm just like reading quotes from the author now, I'm
just really glad that she was able to find this
platform and find success. As always, we wish her case
wasn't an outlier, but I'm glad that she has held
(20:09):
on to that and still finds joy in that, and
it's now getting a lot of recognition for it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And then yeah, she.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I don't know if she's I wouldn't say I know
if she's going to try to direct her daughter into
dancing or anything, but that she is trying to make
sure that her daughter knows about her culture and her
heritage and that people get her name correctly. And she
has this other quote I thought was really moving. I
(20:40):
transformed again when I was gifted a daughter of just
how moving that was for her. And she also has
this other quote, a language that still exists despite many
attempts to wipe it out forever, which we've discussed before. Yes,
Indigenous languages are are been under threat, purposeful attempts to
(21:04):
erase them. But she was saying like that, she would
think this when people at her school couldn't pronounce her name.
She was like, you know, this is a language that
still exists, right and.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
No one knows it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
No one knows it outside of you know where I
come from. And again, that idea of preserving a culture
and a language that she's trying to do we're speaking
of when we're talking about representation. In twenty twenty one,
the Cooperative Children's Book Center reported only one percent of
(21:43):
American children's books were written by indigenous authors. So this
is a big deal that she has this book and
is telling this story, and children's books are important, like
as we said, when you're young, seeing those things matters. Yeah, yeah,
(22:03):
And she has another she has another quote. The author
does not in the book, but she was saying she
learned about a lot of her her culture's history after
school because she said, never was taught it, never got
the chance to learn it.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, which is absurd, Like it feels as a
podcasting show that tries to bring attention to different people,
different activists who have done different things, including many Indigenous people,
trying to learn the history of what they have been
through or even like the things that exist today but
(22:46):
that are a recall of what was taken away from them.
It's been fascinating because it's like having to learn something
new but pretending like I already knew it, you know
what I mean, Like in conversations with any of the
Indigenous people or seeing what they've worked for trying to
fight for indigenous rights, fight for existence, just their tribal existence,
(23:07):
fight for their language, fighting for their foods, fighting for
like any of these conversations or like past names of
lands that were taken from them, it is like significantly
impactful to see them still call upon it, because once
they lose that, once it gets forgotten, it just is lost.
(23:29):
And I couldn't imagine a group of people losing their
entire way of being in their ancestry because of white
supremacy and the years of genocidal attempts against them for existing,
for being here, and having these types of representation, like
the fact that if she's saying that she wasn't taught
and it is her culture, how many more of us
(23:53):
have no clue of the many things that are fascinating
and it actually teaches us lessons today. Yeah, like that's
so important, And it's the more like we uncover, the
more we talk about, the more communities, the more groups
of people that we see and talk about, Like it's
almost shameful, Like I feel like I haven't done a job,
(24:16):
my job, even though I'm new to this job, and
even though we were never taught that we have to
seek it and especially as we are trying to stop
the bigger attempts, today's attempts, the current attempts to shut
down these types of information, this type of history today,
Like it's such a significant amount of information that we
(24:40):
don't have that is a loss to everyone.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yes, yes, absolutely, And if you want to look up her,
I believe this interview was with Colores in partnership with PBS,
but she talked about that. She said, there was two
sentences in my textbook that was just basically about how
(25:07):
indigenous people attacked white people.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
That's all literally like, oh, look, these white people help
the indigenous people, and then the indigenous people were mad
when we told me they had to move.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, I mean we're laughing because it's ridiculous and terrible.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It is like they downplay the atrocities as if it
was just history and that it didn't really affect too
many people.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
It's fine, right, right, But I would recommend checking checking
out some of the interviews she's done and some of
the other work she's done, and just hear her. The
videos of her dancing very just beautiful in this book,
which is important and I'm glad kids have access to it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes, well, listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
As always, we would love to know your thoughts. We
would love to hear your suggestions. You can email us
at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You dot com. You
can find us on Blue Sky at Momstaff podcast, or
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We're also on YouTube. We have some new merchandise at
Common Bureau, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks z Always Too, our
super produced Christina, our executive produce, and your contributor Joey.
(26:14):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never
Told You production of My Heart Radio. For more podcast
from my Heart Radio, you can check out the heart
Radio app, Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite
shows
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha. I welcome to Stuff
I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio and today for
our book Club, which may or may not come out December.
You know, holidays coming around, a lot of scheduling happening.
(00:28):
We are talking about a beautiful children's book from twenty
twenty two, Finding My Dance, written by Rhea Thundercloud and
illustrated by Khalila J.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Fuller.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It follows the story of a young Indigenous woman, Wakeja
Haja Peewinga, which is Rio's ho Chunk name, and her
journey from a child to an adult with a child,
and her different experiences with dance, as well as her
becoming a mother. It is largely autobiographical based on Thundercloud's
(01:01):
own experiences with dance. She is a professional Indigenous dancer.
You can look up videos of her really amazing and
thank you to the read along of this book that
she does, which is really lovely and very helpful. For
pronunciations and thank you. We always try to get those right,
(01:21):
but sometimes you can't find them anywhere, but here. It's wonderful.
You can look it up, just fantastic. You can also
look up photographs she does dance from both northern and
southern styles of Indigenous dances, which honors her heritage. And
she's also she's just done a lot of other stuff.
(01:43):
She's collaborated with PBS. She's talked about missing and murdered
Indigenous women. She's talked about Indigenous sensuality and sexuality. She's
got a lot of interviews and things that you can find.
So look her up and also look this book. It's
really really lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
It is.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, because this is a shorter book, this will be
a shorter episode, but always recommend it. I highly recommend it.
So Ria this and also the character who again that's
her name, her ho Junk name. She is from the
(02:24):
Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin and the San Dio Pueblo
in New Mexico, and as early as four, her mother
encouraged her to get into dancing. She gifted her this
orange jingle dress, which is a traditional style of dress.
Her mother told her that the dress was healing and
would bless anyone who watched her dance in it. She
(02:46):
talks about the power and importance of dancing in a
powow circle, which is something she does, I believe. At
the age of four, she starts very early, while she
was nervous the first time. With the support of her family,
she had a wonderful experience and went on tour doing
their dances and she stayed with friends and family along
(03:09):
the way. She traveled all over. When she was thirteen,
she received her fancy shawl, which is a type of
shawl that is reminiscent of a butterfly's wings in movement
and in looks. Wakaja then tries all different types of
dance styles from modern to jazz, everything in between, and
she was and is successful too, making it to a
(03:33):
competitive team after an audition and winning a prestigious award
with her very first dance solo. So it's just a
story of her falling in love with dance, finding all
these different types of dance and finding a way to
(03:53):
express herself, stay true to her heritage, connect with other
people and travel and you know, ultimately tell this story
and yes she does have a child at the end
and talks about how she what she wants for her
(04:17):
and what she wants when it comes to her journey,
whatever that might look like, how she wants that to
be for her, and and the way she's taking to
improve it. Versus what she what her journey was. So
that's it. It's beautiful, it's beautifully illustrated.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Illustrations are gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yes, yes, I like how. I like how. It's just
a lot of different formats.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So in some it will be like a two pager
and a really colorful like pow wow circle, and some
it's like a bunch of smaller illustrations on one page.
That's just a lot of he variety that I really appreciated.
So the themes, I would say, the big theme is
a dance that was art or expression.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
She is.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's just something she immediately loved and wanted to get into,
and people in her life supported her in but she
just talked about how immediately she wanted this and she
knew that she wanted this, and to see her journey
of all of the different things she tried, she she
(05:39):
has this. She has a quote in there dance isn't
one thing.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
And she also.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Expresses kind of her her hardship and trying to fit
into classical dance styles because they were much more rigid
than she was used to. They had much more rules,
and that was not how she grew up in these
indigenous dance styles.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Right, I've talked about how I enjoyed dancing and is
something that helps me my anxiety. But when we talk
about the root of dance and where it came from
(06:23):
and its forms, and we don't give enough credit for
its origins and its beginnings and why they did it.
These were traditional, almost like religious, a part of their culture,
and I think throughout the years, not necessarily like in
a bad way, but become because it has become more
of a hobby, more of an exercise. We talk about
(06:43):
with yoga, we talk about with meditation, that it became
more entertainment rather than seeing the root of what it was.
And I think she explores a lot of that in
her own childhood. Of course, like I'm going deeper than
what the book is actually saying, but she talks about
origins and her connections to her ancestry through dance through nature,
(07:04):
and that was kind of the intent of dance to
begin with. And we talk about that with like how
folk art and folk dancing and music came from the
pleas of you know, enslaved people bringing their culture and
trying to connect back to their culture which was stolen
from them. And again for many of the Indigenous people
was not only stolen, it was trying to be eradicated
(07:28):
or erased. And also they were like they made fun
of it. They made it into such a way that
even hearing the word pow wow, which is an amazing ceremony,
and you hear more about it and like it is sacred.
But because of the way white culture and white supremacy
as taking these words and like believes or ideals, they
have caused this almost like backlash and what it is
(07:52):
and a way of illegitimizing what it truly is. And
when we talk about cultural appropriation, why using that terms
are saying get together is is really offensive. And while
we have to pay attention to what this narrative does
because they are trying to destroy a culture which is
so deeply ingrained and so deeply a part and rich
(08:12):
part of their nature, and that they're returning to that
they are actually being praised for again like it's kind
of come back to fashion to a noting that this
is a beautiful ceremony that should be looked with reverence
and that should only be done by Native people with
those types of roots. But it is interesting because we
(08:34):
talk about classical it is kind of like it's pretty,
don't get me wrong. And there's also roots of that
in ancestral dancing for other formats, but it got whitewashed
and become a show and tell type of thing. I
guess is a way instead of seeing what dance could be.
And it is interesting, especially when you have whitewashed where
(08:57):
she was like learning and she's great, she's a great answer,
like she knows she's gotten awarded for all these different
types of solos and such, but having some of those
parts that she doesn't connect with it, how it does
seem difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And I think that says a lot.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Again, this is going real deep into it, but that
when we talk about things like this, how beautiful important
it is, and why it needs to be noted to
young children, because I feel like that's when you really
feel the magic of it, when you connect you know.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, yeah, and you touched on a lot of stuff
that we're going to come back to, but yeah, I mean,
I do I agree that when you're young. That's when
I was in dancing class and until I got too
self conscious about my body that it was.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It felt very freeing and I was like, undoubtedly I
was doing a much more classical type. But when you're
younger and it kind of feels like I get to
wear this and there's this music and I get to
move in this way. And it wasn't necessarily strict because
I was really young, so it was it did feel
(10:13):
pretty magical. I remember those moments of thinking, I'm so
excited to do this, So I do think, yeah, when
you're younger, not that you can't find it at any time,
but it is a special like it feels really like fun.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
And also you get to do it with your friends
hopefully hopefully like you get to do with people who
feel that same way with you. So as a class,
you're doing these fun classes unless you know, things can
go awry often, but if you're truly enjoying it and
allow to enjoy it for what it is, I just
feel like a connection.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, it does. It does.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And outside of the book, in an interview, Thundercloud said
one of the reasons that she loves dance is that
she would get all in her her mind and this
was a way of being present with her body. And
I think that that that just made so much sense
(11:15):
to me because that's how I feel when I go
hiking because I have to focus on every the next
step and the next step and the next step, and
it does help me get out.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Of my head, which can be difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I won't why, but if you can do it, it's
really nice. And afterwards I often feel very refreshed, like
I just needed that moment of being present with my body. Yeah.
I think it's really important. It used to be so
(11:48):
good about stretching, but I've fallen off. The last time
I stretched and it was really nice. I was like, Yep,
there's a reason why I did this all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
She also talks about finding connection and communication through art
and preserving culture that way. That is, yeah, very very important.
But she's a big proponent of finding that communication because
she was shy. She talked about feeling very shy, which
(12:24):
she later kind of expounded on and said also I
was the only indigenous person. But we'll talk about that
more in a second, but at the time she was
interpreting it as shy and dance was a way that
she could communicate. So here's a quote. I could always
dance it out and feel better, which yeah, again, and
(12:47):
using dance as another language, which I really love how
she talks about that.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
We used to do that in a.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Not by not the same level by any means, but
in college, I in a group that was just about
international communication, connecting with people might not speak your language,
and we did. We would make dances to communicate, which
some of them I still know.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And it was college. I will stick with you. You
think about some.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Of the routines that I did as a kid with
my friends who were in dance, and I wasn't with
a great number for footloose.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Oh I bet you did.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Anyway, I love that. I love it.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Uh. And then it kind of ends with this message,
I am beautiful thunder woman, and dance will always be
a part of me. I've heard really coming into her
own of this is who I am, and dance is
a part of it. And she talks about feeling the
history through it, and feeling ancestors through it, ancestors watching
(13:56):
over you and doing these dances that people before you
had done and preserving them and presenting them across the country,
which I love. And she also subscribes being gifted a
set of eagle wings and the importance of that because
eagles fly higher than any bird and they take your
(14:20):
messages up to the sky. And another thing she touches
on that I love is quote it felt wonderful to
see the changes of Mother Earth as she was traveling,
just seeing all of these different environments, locations and nature
being important in general, which we've discussed at length when
(14:44):
we talk about Indigenous women on this podcast, but it
is and appreciating that and protecting that as much as
you can, right, Yeah, they.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Like to that. Yeah, I did love also, And she
was talking and I think we're going to talk about
it in a second, about the fact that her brother
was so encouraging and I love that when you see
Indigenous dance and when you see the ceremonies, it's about
warriors and warriorhood and the matriarch and and seeing that
represented from both of them and how important it is
(15:21):
on both those notes. And like again when we talk
about mother Earth and the fact that they based their
their lineage on the matriarch, I think this also, This
dance also played a huge part in that conversation, and
we know that in general, their rituals have a lot
of that as a part of their forefront in their
storytelling too, So it is I love seeing that family
(15:43):
part as also like the separate parts of like that,
I'm like, that's really Yeah. She was like empowered and.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Ready to go. Yeah, I did love when her brother
came up turned and was like you got this and
hard and she did and.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
She's So this brings us to identity, which is also
a huge theme in the book. As mentioned, she was
(16:19):
often the only indigenous woman and any school dance, whatever
it was, she says, sometimes I felt like an outsider.
In the book an interviews, she said like, no, I
want the house side, right, but and her kind of
interpreting that as I'm shy. And also yes, she didn't
(16:46):
correct people on the pronunciation of her name at first.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
She later did.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
The author this is not in the book, but the
author describes going on a high school field trip to
a reservation where the other students like you were kind
of talking about Samith that made fun of the dance
and song, and for her that was just such a
that they were laughing at this thing that was her
(17:12):
identity or culture, part of her whole life of it's
something she loved and her fellow students just laughing at it.
And yeah, she at the end of the book she
writes about how after her daughter was born, she would
correct people who mispronounced it, and so that's sort of
(17:36):
the trying to build that better.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
World for her. But she has started to correct people
on her own name too, and she did in the book.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Ye M right.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I find it interesting because when she talks about again
going from what she loved, learned in love with her
own cultural dances and ancestral dances, and then learning contemporary
dances and know realized she is also good at that,
but also realizing how different it was and I could
not imagine. And I think she kind of alludes to
that with that being like, I don't feel like I'm
a part of this classical was hard and understanding that
(18:11):
her dances are often invalidated by those types of schools
and competitions because they're very whitewash the man I keep
saying that term, but it's true in that it gets
taken into being like that's not a real dance, this
is dance type of conversation. And I'm wondering if that,
like hearing that, seeing that being on trips like that
(18:32):
where they invalidate that, like they would celebrate her championship
for ballet, but not for being warrior dancing like any
of those ways, and seeing how to figure out to
meld those two types of communities together. When she loved
dance in general, like she loved any form, and that's
true appreciation in that understanding, like community, like to love
(18:54):
dance is to love all dance, even if you're not
great at it, to know and learn the difficulty then
ciation of contemporary ballet, hip hop, all of these things,
and ancestral rights like doing indigenous dancing in loving that,
I think definitely as people go traveling the world as
she did, they did appreciate it more. But in general,
(19:18):
the popular, like the populace in general, does not. And
so her trying to figure those two things out while
being in a community that she loves that doesn't love
her or her world is an interesting aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, absolutely, because she does.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
She does touch on that very briefly of the I
felt like I couldn't dance my indigenous dance right, and
that would never fly in this very white world.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And so.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I'm just like reading quotes from the author now, I'm
just really glad that she was able to find this
platform and find success. As always, we wish her case
wasn't an outlier, but I'm glad that she has held
(20:09):
on to that and still finds joy in that, and
it's now getting a lot of recognition for it.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And then yeah, she.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I don't know if she's I wouldn't say I know
if she's going to try to direct her daughter into
dancing or anything, but that she is trying to make
sure that her daughter knows about her culture and her
heritage and that people get her name correctly. And she
has this other quote I thought was really moving. I
(20:40):
transformed again when I was gifted a daughter of just
how moving that was for her. And she also has
this other quote, a language that still exists despite many
attempts to wipe it out forever, which we've discussed before. Yes,
Indigenous languages are are been under threat, purposeful attempts to
(21:04):
erase them. But she was saying like that, she would
think this when people at her school couldn't pronounce her name.
She was like, you know, this is a language that
still exists, right and.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
No one knows it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
No one knows it outside of you know where I
come from. And again, that idea of preserving a culture
and a language that she's trying to do we're speaking
of when we're talking about representation. In twenty twenty one,
the Cooperative Children's Book Center reported only one percent of
(21:43):
American children's books were written by indigenous authors. So this
is a big deal that she has this book and
is telling this story, and children's books are important, like
as we said, when you're young, seeing those things matters. Yeah, yeah,
(22:03):
And she has another she has another quote. The author
does not in the book, but she was saying she
learned about a lot of her her culture's history after
school because she said, never was taught it, never got
the chance to learn it.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah, which is absurd, Like it feels as a
podcasting show that tries to bring attention to different people,
different activists who have done different things, including many Indigenous people,
trying to learn the history of what they have been
through or even like the things that exist today but
(22:46):
that are a recall of what was taken away from them.
It's been fascinating because it's like having to learn something
new but pretending like I already knew it, you know
what I mean, Like in conversations with any of the
Indigenous people or seeing what they've worked for trying to
fight for indigenous rights, fight for existence, just their tribal existence,
(23:07):
fight for their language, fighting for their foods, fighting for
like any of these conversations or like past names of
lands that were taken from them, it is like significantly
impactful to see them still call upon it, because once
they lose that, once it gets forgotten, it just is lost.
(23:29):
And I couldn't imagine a group of people losing their
entire way of being in their ancestry because of white
supremacy and the years of genocidal attempts against them for existing,
for being here, and having these types of representation, like
the fact that if she's saying that she wasn't taught
and it is her culture, how many more of us
(23:53):
have no clue of the many things that are fascinating
and it actually teaches us lessons today. Yeah, like that's
so important, And it's the more like we uncover, the
more we talk about, the more communities, the more groups
of people that we see and talk about, Like it's
almost shameful, Like I feel like I haven't done a job,
(24:16):
my job, even though I'm new to this job, and
even though we were never taught that we have to
seek it and especially as we are trying to stop
the bigger attempts, today's attempts, the current attempts to shut
down these types of information, this type of history today,
Like it's such a significant amount of information that we
(24:40):
don't have that is a loss to everyone.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yes, yes, absolutely, And if you want to look up her,
I believe this interview was with Colores in partnership with PBS,
but she talked about that. She said, there was two
sentences in my textbook that was just basically about how
(25:07):
indigenous people attacked white people.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
That's all literally like, oh, look, these white people help
the indigenous people, and then the indigenous people were mad
when we told me they had to move.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, I mean we're laughing because it's ridiculous and terrible.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It is like they downplay the atrocities as if it
was just history and that it didn't really affect too
many people.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
It's fine, right, right, But I would recommend checking checking
out some of the interviews she's done and some of
the other work she's done, and just hear her. The
videos of her dancing very just beautiful in this book,
which is important and I'm glad kids have access to it.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes, well, listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
As always, we would love to know your thoughts. We
would love to hear your suggestions. You can email us
at Hello at stuff Whenever Told You dot com. You
can find us on Blue Sky at Momstaff podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff We've Never Told You.
We're also on YouTube. We have some new merchandise at
Common Bureau, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks z Always Too, our
super produced Christina, our executive produce, and your contributor Joey.
(26:14):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never
Told You production of My Heart Radio. For more podcast
from my Heart Radio, you can check out the heart
Radio app, Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite
shows
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