June 18, 2025 • 37 mins
This month's book club pick is friend of the show Margaret Killjoy's high fantasy novel The Sapling Cage. The story follows trans teenage witch Lorel through a world turned against witches and on the brink of war as she tries to untangle a deadly plot all while navigating questions around where she belongs. It's a coming-of-age story about identity, choices, life and death, friendships and relationships.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
When I ever told you production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And for this month's book club reading, we are reading
The Sapling Cage, written by fellow podcaster and friend of
the show, Margaret Killjoy. Hey, and yes again, fellow podcaster
Anie and I've both been on her show called Cool
People Who Did Cool Stuff, So you should go and
listen to those if you want to. Also, if you're
(00:40):
not already subscribed to Margaret's substack, you should because I'm
gonna read this off of our substack Margaret Kiljoy dot
substack dot com. That's where you can find it. And
she writes, it's a funny place for me to be
in as a reasonable established author, But I do feel
a sort of weight and importance about this book and
this book launch myself as well, because The Sapling Cage
(01:01):
is the best thing I've written so far. I'm proud
of all of my books, but by giving myself the
larger canvas available to this long form, I've been able
to start really saying some of the stuff I want
to say during this one life I have. The Sapling
Cage is a coming of age high fantasy story the
first in a trilogy. It's a crossover book, which is
a genre developed by the publishing industry to acknowledge that
(01:23):
a lot of readers of young adult books are regular
adults and not young ones.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Us.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
This genre exists to say, quote, yes, the protagonist is
a teenager, but we won't hold ourselves to all the
conventions of the young adult genre. Which isn't to say
this book is more violent or explicit than other young
adult books. It's not, but rather that I didn't have
to limit myself to a specific emotional voice or treat
them romance within it in some specific and formulaic way,
(01:50):
which is important to me because I want to write
honestly about the experiences of a trans teenaged witch. Yes,
so that is what we are reading, and one day
we do to have her on the show. She is
quite busy, we understand, doing all those podcasts, writing all
of these books, being as amazing as herself. She's been
on tours and tours for her books as well. So
(02:11):
one day, cross your fingers, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We really do know, how, y'all.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, we do, We really do know, how, y'all. Again,
we do want to bring her back about the books
and hopefully yeah, when the trilogies come out, maybe we
can have a whole big conversation about all the books
because they are amazing. But if you haven't read this
book yet, I think we should stop you right here
and tell you to go and buy her book. The
(02:37):
Feminist Press is where I got my book, and stop,
read it and then come back, because we're gonna give
you some light spoilers. However, we're we're not. We're gonna
change it up a little bit because we don't want
to give it all away. It's too new. She deserves
you to buy her book and hear it from her
own mind instead of our summary. So we're gonna give
(03:01):
very vague summary without the ending for this right, so
that you, again read listeners can go and check this
book out because it is an easy reader, right Annie.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, and we again we've said this before. Sometimes we
worry about page length because we have to read it,
like I read it one day, right, So we were
I was a little concerned about the length, but we
really want to read it. I was really intrigued by
the idea of it, and it went so quickly, and
(03:35):
it was one of those things when you can. You're
looking at the page numbers and you just know like, oh,
this is not going to wrap up neatly, or it's
going to be another one.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
This feels like a beginning explanation is definitely like setting
the scene for you and then it gets you in there. So, yes,
this is the first novel of a trilogy. You know,
we love trilogies here, we love them. And it's very
dense and it's set up with the plot and many
characters because it is a great coming of age story.
(04:05):
It has like all these layers of identity, friendship, epic,
magical battles, romance, There's a lot. So we're just going
to highlight the plot again without giving you the complete ending,
because again we think it's worth you taking the time
to buy and read her book. So very very loose summary,
I guess this is the way I'm going to put this.
(04:26):
So we have Laurel, who is the main protagonist, a
young girl in a boy's body. She knows who she
is and is trying to navigate the world with her secret.
Her best friend Lane has been promised to the Witches,
which apparently is a thing, as her mother was known
as Leona who one of the Leona of the Leaves,
(04:46):
I believe, and she was a very famous witch. So
therefore Lane was promised to her to become a witch.
But Lane doesn't want to be a witch. She wants
to be a knight or something completely different. Solution, Laurel
will take her place in hopes that she doesn't get caught.
She's always wanted to be a witch, She's had dreams
of it, She's been ready to be a witch, so
she's going to take her place. Laurel's mother, who is worried,
(05:09):
is understanding. She's actually very supportive even though she's very worried,
and Laurel sets off into her new journey. So yes,
she comes out when the witch has come to get
pick up Lane to say I am the chosen one,
and she is. Laurela is joined then by another young
one who has also been promised and named Hex, who
(05:30):
did not want to be there and was forced to
be there because she was also promised even though she
didn't want to and unlike Wayne, didn't have a friend
to take her place. So Hex is miserable and wants
to make Laurel miserable as well. Then we meet a
Rena also promised to be there, raised by Druid, and
she quickly becomes friends with everyone, like everyone wants to
(05:51):
be her friend. Laurel wants to be her friend, Hex
wants to be her friend. There's a little competition that's
going on. She seems really cool. But things in this
world is brewing, are dying, Propaganda against witches have begun, children,
and people are disappearing and dying. A fascist regime is
taking control via a queen who has started a new
branch of knights, the tax Knights, who are cruel and
(06:12):
take things from the poor and regular citizens, really bad people.
The witches have decided that they have to come together
and oh, they have to kind of have a conversation
about what to do because since they are there's all
this propaganda against them. Do they fight against this fascist
regime or do they fight against this wicked new thing
which is killing the trees again, which is known as
(06:33):
the blight. So they have to have this very big discussion.
Their democracy more of a commune community socialist party, I
guess is the way we probably would go. They have
a very open conversation and have votes and really you know,
go through the time. So that's the way just in
trying to figure out what to do. World during this
(06:55):
time is learning to battle physically and kind of magically,
not quite yet, but she sees like she can see
magic and she knows how it works, and she can
figure out how to find the lay, which is what
she sees as little magic, but more physically again, like
she's learning to fight with axes and swords and all
these things, and she's trying to learn to control her strength,
because there are moments that she does realize she is stronger.
(07:15):
But at the same time, she also doesn't want to
hurt anything, hates it, HASTI all the while again trying
to hide her secret, but slowly her coven all start
to discover her secret. Everything happens. I was like, yeah,
I don't think that could last long, right, No, And yeah,
exactly how it went, but no one really cares. She's
a witch, she's chosen to learn magic, and she's to
(07:37):
them who she says she is. So it's quite beautiful.
Of course, there's still kind of like a lot of
confusion and conversations that has to be worked out for
herself and the witches, but you know, they're all like, yeah,
you're one of us. Of course you can see the lay.
You're magical. Welcome. We also learned that there was another
witch before Laurel who was also hiding that same secret,
Dame Katkin, but had found a spell to make her
(08:00):
as she was, but it also included using a bone
from another person, and that person that helped her was there,
but kat Can had actually disappeared. The Sourel was really
big fighter for her. She actually didn't know the spell though,
That's what she has to say. It's like, you know, yeah,
we did this, and I love her all these things,
and then she disappears and we don't know what happens.
(08:20):
I have a feeling that's gonna be a later, later thing,
you know, you know. So we find out that our
witches who are using blight magic to make themselves more
powerful and killing innocent people, the tax Knights are relentless
and trying to come after anyone who would be against
the queen, including and especially the witches. Also we have
again He's who's still there, has left the coven to
(08:42):
be a knight, and she is now happier than ever,
but her friend, a deity, is not happy, and she's
very sad, and she's just miserable.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But yeah, there hex joins like the anti Knights. There's
sort of like knights that left the knighthood to fight
the Knights.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yes, essentially fight the fascists.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
This is kind of what it is that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Kind of lasts remaining all the while we see more
and more trees dying. We have warm monsters wy r
M an undergrad sea monster with eyes as well. We
have all these different things, and then we have the
whelps all fighting them and the Welps I didn't explain
(09:26):
this earlier are the youngest of the witches, are the
newest witches who are learning to become witches, and all
the become dames. They're called whelps at the beginning. They're
the ones that's doing all the adventure, you know what
I'm saying, and finding a lot and discovering a lot
within this time. And during this time, two of them,
including Deity, have figured out how to use this blight
(09:47):
magic to heal people and have done so. So that's
something to think about. And by the way, it's used
through saplings that are in skulls, in cages or that's
where they're like maintained.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, it's like the power they're drawing up the lay.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that has a sapling as well as a new
school as in like recently murdered person goal. And it
comes with the costs though. So there's this hole back
and forth when they are discovered that they had used
as magic, they can't see the lay anymore and the
Lay won't choose them. So it was all these things
and we have Laurel here fighting for them. They can't
be you know, they're trying to be excommunicated or being
(10:23):
sent off, and they're like, no, we can help, and
they're still a part of our coven.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Very sweet.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Then we have this huge gathering of everyone due to
the threat of the blight magic as well as the
abusiveness of the Queen about what they're going to do
to fight against this evil and how to do it
and who will be in charge of who will do
what and all these things. And it comes to the
point that they have decided to allow the witches to
(10:49):
stop the black magic first and then if that doesn't work,
they'll go after the queen.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah. A lot of politics at that part.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
A lot of politics back and forth, back and forth.
And then we have world discovering some things, and then
we have we do have a great ending with a
kind of battle with the unexpected people to be the
villains were expected. It's good to high wall you read
into things and if you think about it too long,
you know it kind of is. But then you have
(11:16):
also a happily ever after with Laurel really figuring out
who she was and who she is and who she
always has been. Also a great little reunion between and
Lane and Laurel really cute too. Yeah, well all of
them all, Rna and Laurel become a couple. They're also
very confused back and forth conversation. It's also very sweet.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
They're figuring things out.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
They're figuring it out. We have a feeling there's going
to be things that need to be talked about. Yes, right, Okay,
So that is my very vague, loose summary of this
wonderful book The Sapling Cage, which again you should really
take some time to read because these characters are fantastic
and they're very sweet. Love the use of magic, and
(12:01):
I love the way that Margaret has turned the character
of the witches. It is something that is unexpected, which
is not typical of what we know about witches.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yes, because I'm sure we'll talk about this more. But
they have seen so much loss and so much persecution
that they're very almost feral. They have to learn to fight,
and so one of the things one of the witches
says early on is about the power of threes, which
(12:33):
I love because it's a trilogy, but it's the seasons
of Summer, Fall, Spring, So I think that's how it's
going to play out. Is this was learning the physical part.
The next part will be the word part, which is
the other tool of fighting that was described, and then
the third part will be the magic part, because the
(12:55):
spring is when the rebirth and the magic happens. That's
just what I think. But yeah, it was cool because
you got to see a lot of viewpoints and have
a lot of discussion about a disagreement, but like kind
of a healthy disagreement most of the time, of like
what should we do? What do we think about this?
How should we move forward? But it was all undergirded
(13:18):
by the fact that they've lost when there are five
Kevins and there was one left and like stragglers of
the others, right, and so having this, having sustained all
that loss, having to keep in mind, how do we
keep ourselves alive, but also this realm line, right, Yeah,
(13:39):
it's really good and the imagery is amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I just.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It is, it's very good. Yeah, So we're gonna talk
about some themes, and I guess ideas within the book
is it's not all in this themes. And I'm sure
we'll have a lot more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
To say.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
As what the trilogy comes about and as when Margaret
comes out of the show. But one of the big
things for sure is identity, whether it's like gender or
sexual identity, all those things came into play. And here's
a quote that I really actually these are three quotes
that are from Laurel that I thought were like really
sustained and like, yeah, this is what she's going through
(14:26):
her thought process. She writes, one of my earliest memories
was being glad that my name was Laurel, as common
for girls as it was for boys. And you know,
the whole idea of dead naming and then renaming themselves
and rebirth is a big deal within every community. I've
talked about my own name and trying to find my
identity as a Korean person using my American name and
(14:46):
all these things, and I know that's something that's a
huge conversation and really important in being able to claim
a name and filling home in a name really does
bring a part of your identity, right. I thought that
was really interesting. I was like, okay, from Jump this
is by the way, yeah, chapter one, this is what
we're reading from chapter one. And then she sayes on
(15:07):
to say talking about how she is trying to navigate
this world and knowing who she is but not necessarily
accepted by everyone. She says those and she's talking about
her mom and Lane are the only two people in
town who I talked about how I should have been
a girl, and like in this other conversation and understanding
not everyone's going to understand, which is a shame, which
is a shame. And then she talks about when she
(15:30):
gets ready to be a part of the coven and
Lane gives her her mother's clothes. She says, I took
it and put it on, talking about a necklace. It
hung just above the low neckline of the long dress.
The stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how
I was born, I was going to be a witch,
despite how I was born, I was going to get
(15:52):
to live as a woman. And it was such a
beautiful scene of her being able to have her own
dresses as hers and being able to really fully embrace
who she's always been. I'm sweet.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, yeah. And at this point Lane wants to be
a knight, and it is acceptable for women to be knights. However,
it's not really acceptable on a large scale at least
for men to be witches. So even though Laurel is
(16:30):
a woman identifies this way, all of this has the
fear of it. And it's really sweet to see her
have this scene of like trying on the clothes and
being so excited and like, yes, I finally get to
do this right, and that gets to do what she
wants to exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
The fact that they're protecting each other is very, very precious,
and the fact that they love each other for that
and to help each other live each other's dreams, that's
the part of that that's so And this is the
part in which we she Laurel has a conversation because
she finds out after the fact. Because she just wanted
to be a witch so badly, she didn't think about
(17:09):
it even if she was discovered, like, oh, there was
another person who was like me, and they were able
to change into becoming an actual and like bodily that way,
and her trying to figure out is this what she wanted?
Why would she want this? What does she want? And
this is what she writes, all I knew is I
wanted to be a witch. All I knew was I
(17:30):
wanted people to let me be a woman, to call
me a woman, to treat me like a woman. Anything
about my body felt secondary. So in understanding that that's
who she is and everything else, it's kind of just like, Okay,
maybe this is what it seems like, but is it
really who I am? No, she's talking about course like
(17:51):
she's gotten injured. At this point. She's like, so, my
biggest problem right now is I have a broken hand,
which is like, yes, that's the bigger problem. But I
think it's really interesting because she has conversation throughout the
book because they are talking about whether or not the
spell exists, who can do it, what is what the
cost would be, and for somebody to sacrifice part of
themselves for her, for her for this and also the
(18:12):
fact that because we're gonna talk about relationships in a minute,
but the fact that two people stepped up fighting over
who would be the one to sacrifice themselves is really
really precious.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah it is, And I'm glad that conversation was
in there, just her wrestling with what did she really want?
Because at first she was so determined to get this
spell and there was only like in theory two people
that knew it, and one of them may be dead,
like we don't know. But then kind of coming around
(18:47):
to you like you know what, maybe I don't Maybe
I don't need that. Yeah, maybe why.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Am I wanting this? Why why do I Yeah, there's
a lot to be said about that, about not liking yourselves,
but also like it's interesting to see characters like Hex
who also felt like she she needed to figure like
she knew herself but she couldn't be herself and really
hating that as well, like she's been predetermined to be
(19:12):
a witch Hex, but she's like she's hating every bit
of it and hated Laurel because she thought that Laurel
was buying into it and not seeing the truth. And
then in actuolity, she's like, oh I get it, you
got a secret too, Like it was really interesting to see.
I also want to talk about Aspen and his character
because I was like, look at look at Margaret. Of
course she does. Of course she need to bring in
(19:34):
this asexual character who has to like also fit himself
in the aspect of like, oh, I have to say
it this way in order to be normal, quote unquote,
because if not, they'll harass me. But I'm not interested
in sex whatsoever. I'm not interested in men or women.
I just want to be here.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's both sad and kind
of clever what he did, because basically they have these
rules they make that they live by, and he made
one that was like no relationships for me my head.
I was like, oh, okay, yeah sure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But he's also one of the most enjoyable characters I
did really love, like Margaret putting in all these sarcastic
notes in this fuck yeah almost like Waite, it doesn't
fit in the realm necessarily of like this what seems
like it should be an ancient tale, but I'm like.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I enjoy this.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And Espen was that character and that like he was
just sarcastic all the time with the rock and be like, hey,
like you said this, so I don't what you want,
like just antagonizing people the entire time, which was quite entertaining.
And then I think another big conversation in this, because
we had it from Jump, is about choices, being able
(20:52):
to choose for yourself your own destiny. We see it
with Lane, we see it with Laurel, we see it
with Hex, we see it with Deity. There's so many
a conversation in trying to figure out how to get
their own choices. And eventually, even though the Whelps were
locked in in the end, a lot of the older witches,
(21:12):
elder witches, were like, nah, you're free to choose. You
chose this. At one point, we have a scene in
which Laurel refuses to kill a fawn. I get it
because she's like, you don't do that. They're innocent creatures.
Why are you doing this? And because of her choice,
they were without mate and they're like, you chose what
you chose, and that's fine. We were good with that,
(21:34):
even though she thought they were all get mad at
her and that they she would be severely punished on
all these things. But it became very clear that she's like, oh, yes,
there are rules, but at the same time, there are
allowances to be able to have free will in this moment,
and here's a quote that I thought it was great.
So this is after Hex decides to run away and
(21:55):
she's allowed to run away to go join the Anti
Knights Nights. Laurel says, you're going to change your name.
I asked her. I figured your parents named you Hex
because you were promised to the order, not going to
change it, she said, I mean all my life, I've
hidden my name because it meant I had to be
a witch. But now I don't have to be. So
it's a reminder of who I didn't have to be,
who I got to choose to be. And I thought
(22:17):
that was such an enlightening moment for all of them,
and understanding that this is really important. Being able to
choose your destiny and having some kind of autonomy is
really important.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yes, And I think there are so many instances of
that when it can kind of feel odd when you're
like thinking about it, perhaps from our modern day standards
of like these kids they're running around, but you know,
(22:52):
it's very I think it's very fulfilling. And I like
that a lot of times the kind of tour which
is like laments, well just kind of like be like, okay,
why think about like explain it to me I'm not
going to stop you. I'm just curious. And then she
(23:13):
goes on her way, right and I like that, or
just like, think about your decision, but it's your decision.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I mean, she really does just like I disagree with you,
but okay you do you?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, pretty much. She's often like all right, I'm not
going to help you out, but good luck.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I give you a warning. Good look at that. I also, yeah,
did find really like part of this conversation in all
of this is that they were they were respecting the
younger as you were saying, in that giving them the
option to have a part be part of the conversation
being there. Like she's like, okay, you want to fight
(23:51):
for data and the other one who what we see
is wrong, they violated it and not only wrong, but
it kind of means that they can't practice magic because
of this. Then y'all need to figure out how to
fix this. And she's like, we're holding you responsible, accountable
and allowing you to do it. And they took up
that accountability and responsibility and took off in that in
(24:13):
that journey, even though it was very dangerous and you know,
almost killed them in general. But then they discovered so
many more things, but that that in itself felt like
a conversation that we often have like the younger generations. Sure,
we have to remember they're human. They're allowed to make choices,
and they are able to take accountability and take responsibility,
and oftentimes when you give them the right tools and resources,
(24:36):
they really will do great.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Sometimes yeah, And I say this for myself even because
there's choices that I made as a kid. I'm like, God, damn, why.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, well, gotta learn her not go because but at
the same time, I was one of the more responsible
ones in the teenage years.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So you know, I'm just saying, you gotta eat. I
let people learn and grow. It hurts, but it does
give allow them for that choices, whether it's good or bad.
And then, as we said, obviously relationships throughout in this thing,
there's so many like we had the relationship again with
Lene and Laurel, who was the purest form of like
(25:17):
best friends and love that they are willing to do
for each other and sacrifice for each other and help
each other, as well as Daity and Hex again they
were the best friends that hated everyone, but it really
put them together. And at one point there was a
question of like do you love her, and Dadi is like, yes,
but she doesn't love me, and I don't care anymore,
Like yeah, genuinely.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, she was going through it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
She was poor thing, and then you get you have
the love between Laurel and Rnay again, the confusion, the
kind of working things out for Rna herself, who was like,
you know, I don't know. I'm confused, and you're this
and now you're that, but you're this, like is this
back and forth? And Laurel also feeling confused because it
kind of felt like a betrayal, but at the same
(26:05):
time she understood it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, I mean they kind of
talked it through and Arena was like, you know, I've
always been attracted to boys, and so I felt like
when I found out this secret, then it made sense,
but now it doesn't make sense because I know you
and that's not who you are. So I'm just struggling
(26:30):
with this. And Laurel understandably felt her, but also was like, no,
I okay, I get it. But they kind of kept
working through it, and I really appreciated that they were like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, it's just oh, obviously something that they're gonna have
talk about but that Rna was able to be like,
IW will sacrifice abovee for you. Yes, if this is
what you want, I will do this in a heartbeat.
So she was ready. And that's in fact, the whole journeys,
whenever they would go anywhere, she was right there with her.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So all that, But then also again Dame Katkin and
Dame Sorel, it's just a blip in that conversation. I
have a feeling we're gonna get a deeper look possibly
later down the road. But like I really because like
she really stands up for Laurel in that private conversation
among the elder witches, which again is like heartbreaking but
(27:22):
you know, very realistic in that in that term, and
they were having them back and forth, and Dame Sorel
fighting tooth and nail in order to make sure everyone
understood Laurel belonged there as well as Laurel is a
woman who who's a young girl going into her womanhood
just like everybody, all the other whelps. It was very
(27:42):
sweet to see. But again I have a feeling we
need to remember, Yeah, these names just saying and then
we have the propaganda used by evil. I really wanted
(28:05):
to put this in here because we know Margaret well
enough to know that this is very pointed in this time.
And yeah, the whole like killing and then making creating
a mess and then blaming the witches for it because
they know they are an easy scapegoat any marginalized community
that it was able to be used from jump is easy,
(28:26):
easy prey. And they have that with a queen, with
other people who are seen as evil, and like they're like, Okay,
this is what's happening. As well as the fact that
we have those who are really excited about stepping on
those who are already in a hard position, so like
the villagers who are being over attacked and who are
(28:46):
being run by like all the diseases, the blight that
was happening, like it was they were the ones who
were suffering the most because of this type of evil.
I'm sure again because spoiler alert, the queen doesn't die.
You should know this in the story.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, well it is a trilogy.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It is a trilogy, and she is a good politician,
so it.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Seems anyway, the wind blows, the politician goes. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean it was very because when we first meet
the witches and they come to collect Laurel. Like some
of them are wounded, and it's because it's so dangerous
(29:34):
just for them to exist and to travel, and because
there has been all of this misinformation and disinformation spread
about them, and like I said, they've been kind of
widely decimated and they have to be careful who they
(29:55):
trust and talk to. But it seemed like at least
in the suffering village that they went to first, they
were like which is just the the prior, and they
were not into the nights at all.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
As as a thing that aside, note that I didn't
mention in the story. But the more powerful the which
the more I want to say grotesque, but monster like
is how she describes it. They become, but they become
more less like human and more like some other creatures.
So some of them had like talents, I believe, and
like ye had face of monsters. Some of them were
(30:33):
like so pale and skinny. They looked like skin and bones,
like they were someone was giant huge apparently like so
the the even like their outer appearents would portray them
to be the villains and these conversations when actually they're
sacrificing their humanity to save humans.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yes, yes, and I would I would also add in
here there was an interesting say, we didn't really get
to see too much of that. I think we'll come back.
But another thing with you know, propaganda like this is
the brature of information, and there's some kind of throwaway
lines about like like for giants actually real Like there
(31:17):
was a couple of things where I was like, so
all this history got erased.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, they became legends. Yeah, half the creatures that they encountered,
they're like, well I didn't think they existed, but here
they are.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know where that's
going to go, but I thought that was interesting because
that is another key point in propaganda efforts like this.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, and then the fact that monsters and again they
were able to talk to them and their demons, but
yet they're made to be that way.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Again kind of briefly talking about the unity they come
through the fact that Laurel and the Wells were able
to bring them all together, because it really was the
fact that Lane and Laurel were friends and we were
able to get that knighthood to come with them, as
well as the fact that they knew Espen already with
the anti knighthood coming in and bringing in people who
they knew would be a part of that type of alliance.
(32:13):
They come in and having a whole conversation which was
very political and took forever, and they just went back
and forth and back and forth and back and forth.
I honestly was waiting for them to wanted them to
be a betrayer for you.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh no, I just assume one of them would have
already been in leaks to they kind of were, but
like even more so.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
But like, yeah, I mean we like we said trilogy, well, it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Was all shaky grounds. There was a lot of like yeah,
back and forth, and the Witches talk a lot about
having to back down and play the game essentially in
order to get things done.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah yeah, and they I mean, there's certainly not a
lot of trust there, but there was an understanding that
this is a bad situation, right right, and we need
to got to fix it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Now, now some of the villagers were like that as well,
like yeah, you know what, since you've been here, everything
has been bad and we've been hearing all of these
cells and that was the other part of the propaganda
we didn't talk about was that it had been all
around the lands that it was the witches and whiches
are bad. The whiches are bad, even to the point
that Laye, who wrote to Laurel, was saying, Hey, I
don't believe them, but just so you know, stay away.
(33:28):
You might want to run away because the witches are
not going to be good in the soon. They are
looking real bad right now. Yeah, So that's kind of
part of that too, which we know happens a lot,
the disinformation, misinformation. And then probably the last thing I'll
hit on is life and death more death.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
In this conversation, and here's a quote, it says it
was bizarre to realize that the most magical things in
this world are also at their heart mundane and fragile,
That a magical sapling can be uprooted, that a witch
die with the sword in her chest the same as anyone, right,
And they lost a lot of people. It seems actually
(34:07):
like five witches.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
It's more than that, was it.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
That's all I could remember.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's more than that, But a lot of it are
not people we know.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay, where it like blips into the conversation. Well, like
I said, there's a lot of death in this and
that that kind of understanding.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
We have a moment when when Laurel is facing the
sea monster and thinking that she's about to drown and
that uh Arne is about to drown as well, and
where there's a part where she thinks she's about to die,
she's realizing who she is, truly who she is, and
that she says, I don't want to die a boy.
I don't want to die with people thinking this way
(34:48):
because I am a woman. I'm a girl. And then
she's talking about like who she's becoming and really really
believing who she is and finding a place in this
in this conversation of her body being as well as
her heart, and it's kind of one of those moments
that you realize, yes, you have so much to do,
so obviously this is going to be a catalyst and
(35:09):
this giant journey in battle and war that she knows
she has stuff to finish.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yes, And it's also kind of going back to what
you were talking about where she couldn't kill the fawn.
They have a lesson. The Welps have a lesson later
where one of the witches was like, you know, how
do you if you're overwhelmed? But how do you go down?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Like what do you do?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
And there was like you know, run away, and then
somebody who was like baiting was like you goed out fighting, kicking, biting,
scream like the whole thing, like we do not stop.
And the Witch's like, yeah, we're we're we are. Numbers
are so few, it's your responsibility almost to like fight
as hard as you can. And that goes back also
(35:55):
to the threes birth life, death, So death is a
is a really big theme in here, and there's a
lot of imagery around death, like bones and the skulls
and things.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Like as yeah, and I think too like with that,
it's kind of that resurgence that the most powerful, which
would be in the front and the welves will be
the back, or sometimes the welves will not be present
that like we need to save them. There's so many.
And then when they are trying to like excommunicate two
of the welbs, they're like we're all leaving and they're like, well,
(36:30):
there's too few of us. We need these, we need
these young ones, so we can't do that, so we'll
figure it out essentially like they came again that you're
not a part because they knew there were too few
in number and need to grow with each other. So
that is a very quick rundown of a really great
long book that's a part of a trilogy which we're
(36:51):
really excited for. And yes, I know you're probably a
little bit like, but what happens? You need to go
read the book.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
K y'all, go get the book. It's great and let
us know your thoughts about it. Hopefully we'll have Margaret
on to talk about the next one. I'm very excited
to read it. Yes, Well, in the meantime, listeners, you
can email us at Hello at Stuffwenever Told You dot com.
(37:22):
You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never
Told You. We're us on YouTube and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer My
and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening Stuff Never Told You. Instructure by heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts wherever you listen
to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
When I ever told you production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And for this month's book club reading, we are reading
The Sapling Cage, written by fellow podcaster and friend of
the show, Margaret Killjoy. Hey, and yes again, fellow podcaster
Anie and I've both been on her show called Cool
People Who Did Cool Stuff, So you should go and
listen to those if you want to. Also, if you're
(00:40):
not already subscribed to Margaret's substack, you should because I'm
gonna read this off of our substack Margaret Kiljoy dot
substack dot com. That's where you can find it. And
she writes, it's a funny place for me to be
in as a reasonable established author, But I do feel
a sort of weight and importance about this book and
this book launch myself as well, because The Sapling Cage
(01:01):
is the best thing I've written so far. I'm proud
of all of my books, but by giving myself the
larger canvas available to this long form, I've been able
to start really saying some of the stuff I want
to say during this one life I have. The Sapling
Cage is a coming of age high fantasy story the
first in a trilogy. It's a crossover book, which is
a genre developed by the publishing industry to acknowledge that
(01:23):
a lot of readers of young adult books are regular
adults and not young ones.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Us.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
This genre exists to say, quote, yes, the protagonist is
a teenager, but we won't hold ourselves to all the
conventions of the young adult genre. Which isn't to say
this book is more violent or explicit than other young
adult books. It's not, but rather that I didn't have
to limit myself to a specific emotional voice or treat
them romance within it in some specific and formulaic way,
(01:50):
which is important to me because I want to write
honestly about the experiences of a trans teenaged witch. Yes,
so that is what we are reading, and one day
we do to have her on the show. She is
quite busy, we understand, doing all those podcasts, writing all
of these books, being as amazing as herself. She's been
on tours and tours for her books as well. So
(02:11):
one day, cross your fingers, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We really do know, how, y'all.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, we do, We really do know, how, y'all. Again,
we do want to bring her back about the books
and hopefully yeah, when the trilogies come out, maybe we
can have a whole big conversation about all the books
because they are amazing. But if you haven't read this
book yet, I think we should stop you right here
and tell you to go and buy her book. The
(02:37):
Feminist Press is where I got my book, and stop,
read it and then come back, because we're gonna give
you some light spoilers. However, we're we're not. We're gonna
change it up a little bit because we don't want
to give it all away. It's too new. She deserves
you to buy her book and hear it from her
own mind instead of our summary. So we're gonna give
(03:01):
very vague summary without the ending for this right, so
that you, again read listeners can go and check this
book out because it is an easy reader, right Annie.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, and we again we've said this before. Sometimes we
worry about page length because we have to read it,
like I read it one day, right, So we were
I was a little concerned about the length, but we
really want to read it. I was really intrigued by
the idea of it, and it went so quickly, and
(03:35):
it was one of those things when you can. You're
looking at the page numbers and you just know like, oh,
this is not going to wrap up neatly, or it's
going to be another one.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
This feels like a beginning explanation is definitely like setting
the scene for you and then it gets you in there. So, yes,
this is the first novel of a trilogy. You know,
we love trilogies here, we love them. And it's very
dense and it's set up with the plot and many
characters because it is a great coming of age story.
(04:05):
It has like all these layers of identity, friendship, epic,
magical battles, romance, There's a lot. So we're just going
to highlight the plot again without giving you the complete ending,
because again we think it's worth you taking the time
to buy and read her book. So very very loose summary,
I guess this is the way I'm going to put this.
(04:26):
So we have Laurel, who is the main protagonist, a
young girl in a boy's body. She knows who she
is and is trying to navigate the world with her secret.
Her best friend Lane has been promised to the Witches,
which apparently is a thing, as her mother was known
as Leona who one of the Leona of the Leaves,
(04:46):
I believe, and she was a very famous witch. So
therefore Lane was promised to her to become a witch.
But Lane doesn't want to be a witch. She wants
to be a knight or something completely different. Solution, Laurel
will take her place in hopes that she doesn't get caught.
She's always wanted to be a witch, She's had dreams
of it, She's been ready to be a witch, so
she's going to take her place. Laurel's mother, who is worried,
(05:09):
is understanding. She's actually very supportive even though she's very worried,
and Laurel sets off into her new journey. So yes,
she comes out when the witch has come to get
pick up Lane to say I am the chosen one,
and she is. Laurela is joined then by another young
one who has also been promised and named Hex, who
(05:30):
did not want to be there and was forced to
be there because she was also promised even though she
didn't want to and unlike Wayne, didn't have a friend
to take her place. So Hex is miserable and wants
to make Laurel miserable as well. Then we meet a
Rena also promised to be there, raised by Druid, and
she quickly becomes friends with everyone, like everyone wants to
(05:51):
be her friend. Laurel wants to be her friend, Hex
wants to be her friend. There's a little competition that's
going on. She seems really cool. But things in this
world is brewing, are dying, Propaganda against witches have begun, children,
and people are disappearing and dying. A fascist regime is
taking control via a queen who has started a new
branch of knights, the tax Knights, who are cruel and
(06:12):
take things from the poor and regular citizens, really bad people.
The witches have decided that they have to come together
and oh, they have to kind of have a conversation
about what to do because since they are there's all
this propaganda against them. Do they fight against this fascist
regime or do they fight against this wicked new thing
which is killing the trees again, which is known as
(06:33):
the blight. So they have to have this very big discussion.
Their democracy more of a commune community socialist party, I
guess is the way we probably would go. They have
a very open conversation and have votes and really you know,
go through the time. So that's the way just in
trying to figure out what to do. World during this
(06:55):
time is learning to battle physically and kind of magically,
not quite yet, but she sees like she can see
magic and she knows how it works, and she can
figure out how to find the lay, which is what
she sees as little magic, but more physically again, like
she's learning to fight with axes and swords and all
these things, and she's trying to learn to control her strength,
because there are moments that she does realize she is stronger.
(07:15):
But at the same time, she also doesn't want to
hurt anything, hates it, HASTI all the while again trying
to hide her secret, but slowly her coven all start
to discover her secret. Everything happens. I was like, yeah,
I don't think that could last long, right, No, And yeah,
exactly how it went, but no one really cares. She's
a witch, she's chosen to learn magic, and she's to
(07:37):
them who she says she is. So it's quite beautiful.
Of course, there's still kind of like a lot of
confusion and conversations that has to be worked out for
herself and the witches, but you know, they're all like, yeah,
you're one of us. Of course you can see the lay.
You're magical. Welcome. We also learned that there was another
witch before Laurel who was also hiding that same secret,
Dame Katkin, but had found a spell to make her
(08:00):
as she was, but it also included using a bone
from another person, and that person that helped her was there,
but kat Can had actually disappeared. The Sourel was really
big fighter for her. She actually didn't know the spell though,
That's what she has to say. It's like, you know, yeah,
we did this, and I love her all these things,
and then she disappears and we don't know what happens.
(08:20):
I have a feeling that's gonna be a later, later thing,
you know, you know. So we find out that our
witches who are using blight magic to make themselves more
powerful and killing innocent people, the tax Knights are relentless
and trying to come after anyone who would be against
the queen, including and especially the witches. Also we have
again He's who's still there, has left the coven to
(08:42):
be a knight, and she is now happier than ever,
but her friend, a deity, is not happy, and she's
very sad, and she's just miserable.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But yeah, there hex joins like the anti Knights. There's
sort of like knights that left the knighthood to fight
the Knights.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yes, essentially fight the fascists.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
This is kind of what it is that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Kind of lasts remaining all the while we see more
and more trees dying. We have warm monsters wy r
M an undergrad sea monster with eyes as well. We
have all these different things, and then we have the
whelps all fighting them and the Welps I didn't explain
(09:26):
this earlier are the youngest of the witches, are the
newest witches who are learning to become witches, and all
the become dames. They're called whelps at the beginning. They're
the ones that's doing all the adventure, you know what
I'm saying, and finding a lot and discovering a lot
within this time. And during this time, two of them,
including Deity, have figured out how to use this blight
(09:47):
magic to heal people and have done so. So that's
something to think about. And by the way, it's used
through saplings that are in skulls, in cages or that's
where they're like maintained.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, it's like the power they're drawing up the lay.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that has a sapling as well as a new
school as in like recently murdered person goal. And it
comes with the costs though. So there's this hole back
and forth when they are discovered that they had used
as magic, they can't see the lay anymore and the
Lay won't choose them. So it was all these things
and we have Laurel here fighting for them. They can't
be you know, they're trying to be excommunicated or being
(10:23):
sent off, and they're like, no, we can help, and
they're still a part of our coven.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Very sweet.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Then we have this huge gathering of everyone due to
the threat of the blight magic as well as the
abusiveness of the Queen about what they're going to do
to fight against this evil and how to do it
and who will be in charge of who will do
what and all these things. And it comes to the
point that they have decided to allow the witches to
(10:49):
stop the black magic first and then if that doesn't work,
they'll go after the queen.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah. A lot of politics at that part.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
A lot of politics back and forth, back and forth.
And then we have world discovering some things, and then
we have we do have a great ending with a
kind of battle with the unexpected people to be the
villains were expected. It's good to high wall you read
into things and if you think about it too long,
you know it kind of is. But then you have
(11:16):
also a happily ever after with Laurel really figuring out
who she was and who she is and who she
always has been. Also a great little reunion between and
Lane and Laurel really cute too. Yeah, well all of
them all, Rna and Laurel become a couple. They're also
very confused back and forth conversation. It's also very sweet.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
They're figuring things out.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
They're figuring it out. We have a feeling there's going
to be things that need to be talked about. Yes, right, Okay,
So that is my very vague, loose summary of this
wonderful book The Sapling Cage, which again you should really
take some time to read because these characters are fantastic
and they're very sweet. Love the use of magic, and
(12:01):
I love the way that Margaret has turned the character
of the witches. It is something that is unexpected, which
is not typical of what we know about witches.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Yes, because I'm sure we'll talk about this more. But
they have seen so much loss and so much persecution
that they're very almost feral. They have to learn to fight,
and so one of the things one of the witches
says early on is about the power of threes, which
(12:33):
I love because it's a trilogy, but it's the seasons
of Summer, Fall, Spring, So I think that's how it's
going to play out. Is this was learning the physical part.
The next part will be the word part, which is
the other tool of fighting that was described, and then
the third part will be the magic part, because the
(12:55):
spring is when the rebirth and the magic happens. That's
just what I think. But yeah, it was cool because
you got to see a lot of viewpoints and have
a lot of discussion about a disagreement, but like kind
of a healthy disagreement most of the time, of like
what should we do? What do we think about this?
How should we move forward? But it was all undergirded
(13:18):
by the fact that they've lost when there are five
Kevins and there was one left and like stragglers of
the others, right, and so having this, having sustained all
that loss, having to keep in mind, how do we
keep ourselves alive, but also this realm line, right, Yeah,
(13:39):
it's really good and the imagery is amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I just.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It is, it's very good. Yeah, So we're gonna talk
about some themes, and I guess ideas within the book
is it's not all in this themes. And I'm sure
we'll have a lot more.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
To say.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
As what the trilogy comes about and as when Margaret
comes out of the show. But one of the big
things for sure is identity, whether it's like gender or
sexual identity, all those things came into play. And here's
a quote that I really actually these are three quotes
that are from Laurel that I thought were like really
sustained and like, yeah, this is what she's going through
(14:26):
her thought process. She writes, one of my earliest memories
was being glad that my name was Laurel, as common
for girls as it was for boys. And you know,
the whole idea of dead naming and then renaming themselves
and rebirth is a big deal within every community. I've
talked about my own name and trying to find my
identity as a Korean person using my American name and
(14:46):
all these things, and I know that's something that's a
huge conversation and really important in being able to claim
a name and filling home in a name really does
bring a part of your identity, right. I thought that
was really interesting. I was like, okay, from Jump this
is by the way, yeah, chapter one, this is what
we're reading from chapter one. And then she sayes on
(15:07):
to say talking about how she is trying to navigate
this world and knowing who she is but not necessarily
accepted by everyone. She says those and she's talking about
her mom and Lane are the only two people in
town who I talked about how I should have been
a girl, and like in this other conversation and understanding
not everyone's going to understand, which is a shame, which
is a shame. And then she talks about when she
(15:30):
gets ready to be a part of the coven and
Lane gives her her mother's clothes. She says, I took
it and put it on, talking about a necklace. It
hung just above the low neckline of the long dress.
The stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how
I was born, I was going to be a witch,
despite how I was born, I was going to get
(15:52):
to live as a woman. And it was such a
beautiful scene of her being able to have her own
dresses as hers and being able to really fully embrace
who she's always been. I'm sweet.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, yeah. And at this point Lane wants to be
a knight, and it is acceptable for women to be knights. However,
it's not really acceptable on a large scale at least
for men to be witches. So even though Laurel is
(16:30):
a woman identifies this way, all of this has the
fear of it. And it's really sweet to see her
have this scene of like trying on the clothes and
being so excited and like, yes, I finally get to
do this right, and that gets to do what she
wants to exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
The fact that they're protecting each other is very, very precious,
and the fact that they love each other for that
and to help each other live each other's dreams, that's
the part of that that's so And this is the
part in which we she Laurel has a conversation because
she finds out after the fact. Because she just wanted
to be a witch so badly, she didn't think about
(17:09):
it even if she was discovered, like, oh, there was
another person who was like me, and they were able
to change into becoming an actual and like bodily that way,
and her trying to figure out is this what she wanted?
Why would she want this? What does she want? And
this is what she writes, all I knew is I
wanted to be a witch. All I knew was I
(17:30):
wanted people to let me be a woman, to call
me a woman, to treat me like a woman. Anything
about my body felt secondary. So in understanding that that's
who she is and everything else, it's kind of just like, Okay,
maybe this is what it seems like, but is it
really who I am? No, she's talking about course like
(17:51):
she's gotten injured. At this point. She's like, so, my
biggest problem right now is I have a broken hand,
which is like, yes, that's the bigger problem. But I
think it's really interesting because she has conversation throughout the
book because they are talking about whether or not the
spell exists, who can do it, what is what the
cost would be, and for somebody to sacrifice part of
themselves for her, for her for this and also the
(18:12):
fact that because we're gonna talk about relationships in a minute,
but the fact that two people stepped up fighting over
who would be the one to sacrifice themselves is really
really precious.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah it is, And I'm glad that conversation was
in there, just her wrestling with what did she really want?
Because at first she was so determined to get this
spell and there was only like in theory two people
that knew it, and one of them may be dead,
like we don't know. But then kind of coming around
(18:47):
to you like you know what, maybe I don't Maybe
I don't need that. Yeah, maybe why.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Am I wanting this? Why why do I Yeah, there's
a lot to be said about that, about not liking yourselves,
but also like it's interesting to see characters like Hex
who also felt like she she needed to figure like
she knew herself but she couldn't be herself and really
hating that as well, like she's been predetermined to be
(19:12):
a witch Hex, but she's like she's hating every bit
of it and hated Laurel because she thought that Laurel
was buying into it and not seeing the truth. And
then in actuolity, she's like, oh I get it, you
got a secret too, Like it was really interesting to see.
I also want to talk about Aspen and his character
because I was like, look at look at Margaret. Of
course she does. Of course she need to bring in
(19:34):
this asexual character who has to like also fit himself
in the aspect of like, oh, I have to say
it this way in order to be normal, quote unquote,
because if not, they'll harass me. But I'm not interested
in sex whatsoever. I'm not interested in men or women.
I just want to be here.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's both sad and kind
of clever what he did, because basically they have these
rules they make that they live by, and he made
one that was like no relationships for me my head.
I was like, oh, okay, yeah sure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
But he's also one of the most enjoyable characters I
did really love, like Margaret putting in all these sarcastic
notes in this fuck yeah almost like Waite, it doesn't
fit in the realm necessarily of like this what seems
like it should be an ancient tale, but I'm like.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I enjoy this.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And Espen was that character and that like he was
just sarcastic all the time with the rock and be like, hey,
like you said this, so I don't what you want,
like just antagonizing people the entire time, which was quite entertaining.
And then I think another big conversation in this, because
we had it from Jump, is about choices, being able
(20:52):
to choose for yourself your own destiny. We see it
with Lane, we see it with Laurel, we see it
with Hex, we see it with Deity. There's so many
a conversation in trying to figure out how to get
their own choices. And eventually, even though the Whelps were
locked in in the end, a lot of the older witches,
(21:12):
elder witches, were like, nah, you're free to choose. You
chose this. At one point, we have a scene in
which Laurel refuses to kill a fawn. I get it
because she's like, you don't do that. They're innocent creatures.
Why are you doing this? And because of her choice,
they were without mate and they're like, you chose what
you chose, and that's fine. We were good with that,
(21:34):
even though she thought they were all get mad at
her and that they she would be severely punished on
all these things. But it became very clear that she's like, oh, yes,
there are rules, but at the same time, there are
allowances to be able to have free will in this moment,
and here's a quote that I thought it was great.
So this is after Hex decides to run away and
(21:55):
she's allowed to run away to go join the Anti
Knights Nights. Laurel says, you're going to change your name.
I asked her. I figured your parents named you Hex
because you were promised to the order, not going to
change it, she said, I mean all my life, I've
hidden my name because it meant I had to be
a witch. But now I don't have to be. So
it's a reminder of who I didn't have to be,
who I got to choose to be. And I thought
(22:17):
that was such an enlightening moment for all of them,
and understanding that this is really important. Being able to
choose your destiny and having some kind of autonomy is
really important.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yes, And I think there are so many instances of
that when it can kind of feel odd when you're
like thinking about it, perhaps from our modern day standards
of like these kids they're running around, but you know,
(22:52):
it's very I think it's very fulfilling. And I like
that a lot of times the kind of tour which
is like laments, well just kind of like be like, okay,
why think about like explain it to me I'm not
going to stop you. I'm just curious. And then she
(23:13):
goes on her way, right and I like that, or
just like, think about your decision, but it's your decision.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
I mean, she really does just like I disagree with you,
but okay you do you?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah, pretty much. She's often like all right, I'm not
going to help you out, but good luck.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I give you a warning. Good look at that. I also, yeah,
did find really like part of this conversation in all
of this is that they were they were respecting the
younger as you were saying, in that giving them the
option to have a part be part of the conversation
being there. Like she's like, okay, you want to fight
(23:51):
for data and the other one who what we see
is wrong, they violated it and not only wrong, but
it kind of means that they can't practice magic because
of this. Then y'all need to figure out how to
fix this. And she's like, we're holding you responsible, accountable
and allowing you to do it. And they took up
that accountability and responsibility and took off in that in
(24:13):
that journey, even though it was very dangerous and you know,
almost killed them in general. But then they discovered so
many more things, but that that in itself felt like
a conversation that we often have like the younger generations. Sure,
we have to remember they're human. They're allowed to make choices,
and they are able to take accountability and take responsibility,
and oftentimes when you give them the right tools and resources,
(24:36):
they really will do great.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Sometimes yeah, And I say this for myself even because
there's choices that I made as a kid. I'm like, God, damn, why.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, well, gotta learn her not go because but at
the same time, I was one of the more responsible
ones in the teenage years.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So you know, I'm just saying, you gotta eat. I
let people learn and grow. It hurts, but it does
give allow them for that choices, whether it's good or bad.
And then, as we said, obviously relationships throughout in this thing,
there's so many like we had the relationship again with
Lene and Laurel, who was the purest form of like
(25:17):
best friends and love that they are willing to do
for each other and sacrifice for each other and help
each other, as well as Daity and Hex again they
were the best friends that hated everyone, but it really
put them together. And at one point there was a
question of like do you love her, and Dadi is like, yes,
but she doesn't love me, and I don't care anymore,
Like yeah, genuinely.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, she was going through it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
She was poor thing, and then you get you have
the love between Laurel and Rnay again, the confusion, the
kind of working things out for Rna herself, who was like,
you know, I don't know. I'm confused, and you're this
and now you're that, but you're this, like is this
back and forth? And Laurel also feeling confused because it
kind of felt like a betrayal, but at the same
(26:05):
time she understood it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, I mean they kind of
talked it through and Arena was like, you know, I've
always been attracted to boys, and so I felt like
when I found out this secret, then it made sense,
but now it doesn't make sense because I know you
and that's not who you are. So I'm just struggling
(26:30):
with this. And Laurel understandably felt her, but also was like, no,
I okay, I get it. But they kind of kept
working through it, and I really appreciated that they were like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, it's just oh, obviously something that they're gonna have
talk about but that Rna was able to be like,
IW will sacrifice abovee for you. Yes, if this is
what you want, I will do this in a heartbeat.
So she was ready. And that's in fact, the whole journeys,
whenever they would go anywhere, she was right there with her.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
So all that, But then also again Dame Katkin and
Dame Sorel, it's just a blip in that conversation. I
have a feeling we're gonna get a deeper look possibly
later down the road. But like I really because like
she really stands up for Laurel in that private conversation
among the elder witches, which again is like heartbreaking but
(27:22):
you know, very realistic in that in that term, and
they were having them back and forth, and Dame Sorel
fighting tooth and nail in order to make sure everyone
understood Laurel belonged there as well as Laurel is a
woman who who's a young girl going into her womanhood
just like everybody, all the other whelps. It was very
(27:42):
sweet to see. But again I have a feeling we
need to remember, Yeah, these names just saying and then
we have the propaganda used by evil. I really wanted
(28:05):
to put this in here because we know Margaret well
enough to know that this is very pointed in this time.
And yeah, the whole like killing and then making creating
a mess and then blaming the witches for it because
they know they are an easy scapegoat any marginalized community
that it was able to be used from jump is easy,
(28:26):
easy prey. And they have that with a queen, with
other people who are seen as evil, and like they're like, Okay,
this is what's happening. As well as the fact that
we have those who are really excited about stepping on
those who are already in a hard position, so like
the villagers who are being over attacked and who are
(28:46):
being run by like all the diseases, the blight that
was happening, like it was they were the ones who
were suffering the most because of this type of evil.
I'm sure again because spoiler alert, the queen doesn't die.
You should know this in the story.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, well it is a trilogy.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It is a trilogy, and she is a good politician,
so it.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Seems anyway, the wind blows, the politician goes. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean it was very because when we first meet
the witches and they come to collect Laurel. Like some
of them are wounded, and it's because it's so dangerous
(29:34):
just for them to exist and to travel, and because
there has been all of this misinformation and disinformation spread
about them, and like I said, they've been kind of
widely decimated and they have to be careful who they
(29:55):
trust and talk to. But it seemed like at least
in the suffering village that they went to first, they
were like which is just the the prior, and they
were not into the nights at all.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
As as a thing that aside, note that I didn't
mention in the story. But the more powerful the which
the more I want to say grotesque, but monster like
is how she describes it. They become, but they become
more less like human and more like some other creatures.
So some of them had like talents, I believe, and
like ye had face of monsters. Some of them were
(30:33):
like so pale and skinny. They looked like skin and bones,
like they were someone was giant huge apparently like so
the the even like their outer appearents would portray them
to be the villains and these conversations when actually they're
sacrificing their humanity to save humans.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yes, yes, and I would I would also add in
here there was an interesting say, we didn't really get
to see too much of that. I think we'll come back.
But another thing with you know, propaganda like this is
the brature of information, and there's some kind of throwaway
lines about like like for giants actually real Like there
(31:17):
was a couple of things where I was like, so
all this history got erased.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, they became legends. Yeah, half the creatures that they encountered,
they're like, well I didn't think they existed, but here
they are.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know where that's
going to go, but I thought that was interesting because
that is another key point in propaganda efforts like this.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, and then the fact that monsters and again they
were able to talk to them and their demons, but
yet they're made to be that way.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Again kind of briefly talking about the unity they come
through the fact that Laurel and the Wells were able
to bring them all together, because it really was the
fact that Lane and Laurel were friends and we were
able to get that knighthood to come with them, as
well as the fact that they knew Espen already with
the anti knighthood coming in and bringing in people who
they knew would be a part of that type of alliance.
(32:13):
They come in and having a whole conversation which was
very political and took forever, and they just went back
and forth and back and forth and back and forth.
I honestly was waiting for them to wanted them to
be a betrayer for you.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Uh, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Oh no, I just assume one of them would have
already been in leaks to they kind of were, but
like even more so.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
But like, yeah, I mean we like we said trilogy, well, it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Was all shaky grounds. There was a lot of like yeah,
back and forth, and the Witches talk a lot about
having to back down and play the game essentially in
order to get things done.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah yeah, and they I mean, there's certainly not a
lot of trust there, but there was an understanding that
this is a bad situation, right right, and we need
to got to fix it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Now, now some of the villagers were like that as well,
like yeah, you know what, since you've been here, everything
has been bad and we've been hearing all of these
cells and that was the other part of the propaganda
we didn't talk about was that it had been all
around the lands that it was the witches and whiches
are bad. The whiches are bad, even to the point
that Laye, who wrote to Laurel, was saying, Hey, I
don't believe them, but just so you know, stay away.
(33:28):
You might want to run away because the witches are
not going to be good in the soon. They are
looking real bad right now. Yeah, So that's kind of
part of that too, which we know happens a lot,
the disinformation, misinformation. And then probably the last thing I'll
hit on is life and death more death.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
In this conversation, and here's a quote, it says it
was bizarre to realize that the most magical things in
this world are also at their heart mundane and fragile,
That a magical sapling can be uprooted, that a witch
die with the sword in her chest the same as anyone, right,
And they lost a lot of people. It seems actually
(34:07):
like five witches.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
It's more than that, was it.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
That's all I could remember.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's more than that, But a lot of it are
not people we know.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay, where it like blips into the conversation. Well, like
I said, there's a lot of death in this and
that that kind of understanding.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
We have a moment when when Laurel is facing the
sea monster and thinking that she's about to drown and
that uh Arne is about to drown as well, and
where there's a part where she thinks she's about to die,
she's realizing who she is, truly who she is, and
that she says, I don't want to die a boy.
I don't want to die with people thinking this way
(34:48):
because I am a woman. I'm a girl. And then
she's talking about like who she's becoming and really really
believing who she is and finding a place in this
in this conversation of her body being as well as
her heart, and it's kind of one of those moments
that you realize, yes, you have so much to do,
so obviously this is going to be a catalyst and
(35:09):
this giant journey in battle and war that she knows
she has stuff to finish.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yes, And it's also kind of going back to what
you were talking about where she couldn't kill the fawn.
They have a lesson. The Welps have a lesson later
where one of the witches was like, you know, how
do you if you're overwhelmed? But how do you go down?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Like what do you do?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
And there was like you know, run away, and then
somebody who was like baiting was like you goed out fighting, kicking, biting,
scream like the whole thing, like we do not stop.
And the Witch's like, yeah, we're we're we are. Numbers
are so few, it's your responsibility almost to like fight
as hard as you can. And that goes back also
(35:55):
to the threes birth life, death, So death is a
is a really big theme in here, and there's a
lot of imagery around death, like bones and the skulls
and things.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Like as yeah, and I think too like with that,
it's kind of that resurgence that the most powerful, which
would be in the front and the welves will be
the back, or sometimes the welves will not be present
that like we need to save them. There's so many.
And then when they are trying to like excommunicate two
of the welbs, they're like we're all leaving and they're like, well,
(36:30):
there's too few of us. We need these, we need
these young ones, so we can't do that, so we'll
figure it out essentially like they came again that you're
not a part because they knew there were too few
in number and need to grow with each other. So
that is a very quick rundown of a really great
long book that's a part of a trilogy which we're
(36:51):
really excited for. And yes, I know you're probably a
little bit like, but what happens? You need to go
read the book.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
K y'all, go get the book. It's great and let
us know your thoughts about it. Hopefully we'll have Margaret
on to talk about the next one. I'm very excited
to read it. Yes, Well, in the meantime, listeners, you
can email us at Hello at Stuffwenever Told You dot com.
(37:22):
You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff
podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never
Told You. We're us on YouTube and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer My
and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listening Stuff Never Told You. Instructure by heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts wherever you listen
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