Buffy the Feminist Vampire Slayer

Buffy the Vampire Slayer has been hailed as one of the most feminist shows in TV history. Cristen, Caroline and HowStuffWorks galpal Lauren Vogelbaum dive into the Hellmouth to assess how effectively Buffy and the Scooby gang slayed the patriarchy.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the Buffy Cast.
I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we have a
very special guest slash, a very special friend and co worker,

(00:23):
Lauren vogel Bomb. She is a producer here at How
Stuff Works, also a podcast personality video personality. You should
do everything, Lauren, literally everything you. Oh no, no, no no, no,
every everyone around here does everything. That's the beautiful part
of it. But yeah, I do have a podcast and
video show called How Stuff Works now and you know

(00:45):
whatever else other stuff. Yeah, like like Buffy Cast, like
Buffy Casts. I'm so excited that you guys actually decided
to do this because we talked about it like a
year ago and then it never happened, and then I
was sad that maybe it would never happen and that
you hated me. But but it's all happening now and
I'm just so excited because I just love Buffy so much. Well,

(01:08):
you are the vogel Bomb dot com and that's why
we wanted you to come on the show and talk
about Buffy with us, because because here's the thing, like
you adore Buffy and I did when I was much younger.
I have not watched Buffy in a very long time,
and I really did not change that status for this
show for the recording of this episode, which you know,

(01:28):
that's a good perspective because you have a childhood perspective.
Lauren is our expert. I've I've I've watched, I've watched
the series start to finish more than twice, certain or
an expert in slayge and and my my roommate um Andrew,
who is also very much into the show, was so
upset that he's not in this podcast right now. He

(01:49):
was like, I dress like a girl with that help
like that, but no, no, he um he and I
have been watching and taking one of our other roommates
through some of the older episodes and classics. That sounds fun,
So I have seen some of it very recently well,
and I had not watched any of the show at
all ever until around a year ago when we first

(02:12):
started talking about it, because we've heard about Buffy fandom
from our stuff. I've never told you crew for so long,
y'all love Buffy. Well. About a year ago, we did
uh some episodes on Witches, Hollywood Witches and also feminism
and witchcraft, and so a lot of people were like, hello,

(02:34):
you you talked about all of this witchcraft stuff. Well
what about Buffy and vampire slaying and Willow and Willow
and uh Tara and lots of stuff, so many witches
and warlocks and demons to cover. Uh. Yeah, it was
super fun. I gotta say watching it as an adult

(02:54):
because I wasn't allowed to watch it when it was
airing because occult demon Yes, And I remember though, how
much of a sex symbol Sarah Michelle Geller was, Like,
that was my impression. She was always like the cover
of the Haircut magazine. It was like either her or

(03:15):
Jennifer Aniston. And she was always wear those spaghetti strap
tank tops. And I knew the names of everyone. I
knew she was Buffy. I knew that she was all
into some super pale guy angel. But I also know
that my parents would get super uncomfortable with all of
that demonology happening in the house, so I had to

(03:35):
wait till I was thirty. Also, don't tell my mom. Yeah,
what would what would Nancy say if she knew you
were watching it? Now? Oh? You know what, Nancy's cool? Cool? Cool? Now?
You know, she'd probably be all right with it, although
I don't. I don't know, I don't know. She still
kind of squeaked out by like yoga classes, So Buffy
might be a little bit too far. Yeah, there are

(03:57):
several yoga like poses that Buffy does get into you
in her pursuit of fighting demons. It's true. So where
do we even begin with the Buffy Verse? Because it's
so expansive, seven seasons plus a comic book series that
is ongoing and and creating new seasons. Is it's still
called just season eight? Yeah? Okay, Yeah, that was confusing

(04:19):
for me. But I like it. I like that it's
consistent that even though it's several years long, it's still
just called season eight. Hardcore fans um will say that
it's it's non canonical. So but I thought it was canonical.
I you know, I don't really like to It's not
my argument. I don't have because of Joss Wheden. A
fish in this fight? What's the like a fish in

(04:41):
this fight? Because like a fish doesn't need a bicycle.
Well that's how I fight, though, Is I get a
fish and I slap you with it? Sorry, I know
it smells in here, but I just have it ready
in case things get a little testy. Always keep a
flounder in your so does A prepared woman always has
a flounder. That's true. So for people who were like

(05:04):
me not so long ago, who might not be so
familiar with Buffy, what's the best way to break down
who she is? I mean, obviously, the show title is
pretty self explanatory. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's that's It's
what it says on the box pretty much, that's what
you get. Um, she's uh, she's hull. She's the newest

(05:25):
in a long line of demon slayers who were created
by the patriarchy, as it turns out, and yes, as
it turns out, and um, and she's she's just a
normal teenage girl who's going about her slightly ditzy and
charmed life. Is a very white, middle class person. And
then suddenly she's dropped with this responsibility. Um. And then

(05:47):
the show uses that to like basically walk us through
how high school is. Like hell, yeah, yeah, literally, So
Buffy moves to Sunnydale, where the show takes place most
of the seasons take place, and it just so turns
out that Sandel California is which is fictional. Yes, it's
not a real place unfortunately, because it is a hell mouth. Yeah,

(06:11):
it is situated right on top of a gate to Hell.
And it was on the air from to two thousand three.
But first came Buffy the Movie, which I also have
not seen. I haven't seen it either really never. Oh
my goodness. I loved it when it came out. I
was always really into horror and sci fi and all
of that, and so I was fascinated by by that

(06:33):
a long time before the Buffy the Vampire Slayer television
series came out. I actually didn't start watching this series
until season six was airing. My very first episode was
the musical episode, and we had to pause it about
every four and a half seconds so that my friends
could explain all like everything that was going on. Um.
But but no, uh, the movie, yes, um, it was

(06:54):
a lot less feminist e to borrow wadani is um
um than the TV show wound wound up being. It was.
Buffy was a lot more sexualized. It was. It was goofy.
I mean, um, it had Dylan from nine O two
and O in it. Yeah, that is that Luke Perry
and by the way. As we are recording this, Luke

(07:15):
Perry is currently on the cover of a ARP magazine.
I know what, I know, Yes, but back to Buffy. Yeah, no,
I'm going to need a minute. Yeah, I know we
are old. That's fine. No, that's I'm fine with that.
Um it had it had a really great sequence with
peee Herman Pee Herman. Um, I'm forgetting his name. Had
Paul Rubens, thank you, had a really terrific death sequence

(07:36):
that lasted like seven minutes. Uh Rutger howerd was in there.
I don't know why. No one knows why. Um. But
but yeah, it's the movie if if you choose to
believe what Joss Weeden says about it, and can we
really trust Josh Weeden? Um, now, if you from what
he says, it got out of his the studio took
it out of his control pretty early on, and so
it sort of escaped him. And the TV show is

(07:58):
very much more along the lines of he was hoping
to do with the concept. Well, and the original concept too,
was all about flipping the horror script where you usually
have a an attractive girl like a Buffy who would
be killed off she's too sexy to survive. Right, she
wanders down the dark alley, she gets killed, or instead

(08:20):
of running to safety, she just runs upstairs and the
monster or the killer whoever gets here. But here's Buffy
still looking that very stereotypically like cute California girl with
the glitter eye shadow and the little pink tank taps,
still looking like that, but kicking major monster butt. Yeah. Yeah,
like like beware the monster that follows her into that

(08:40):
dark alleyway. I mean to me, it was similar to
watching Jessica Jones, which I watched before I started watching Buffy. Yeah,
and I had a similar sensation, like a comfort that
kicked in when I realized how Buffy can do this. Okay,
she's not She's not going to get beaten up by
all of these monsters, or if she does get beaten

(09:01):
up a little bit, they're going to get it much worse. Yeah. Absolutely,
We're gonna get dusted. Yeah. I think, Um, I think
that Jessica Jones is based so firmly and so much
of what Buffy the Vampire Slayer was doing, like like
right down to the actress that they cast as Jessica
looking I think very much like Sarah Michelle Gellar and
making a lot of very similar facial expressions in response
to things that are going on. Well, I was kind

(09:23):
of wondering not to get to ahead of ourselves. If
Faith the other slayer that she meets, who's a little
more rough and tumble, also a brunette. Um, it was
a little bit more of a Jessica Jones. But again,
like my expertise is certainly not as deep as yours.
I like being an expert in something for once. Usually
in this job, we all just research something for like

(09:45):
two and a half minutes and then it's over, and
now I'm just like, finally I have something to bring
to the table. Well, you should probably join up with
the Weed and Studies people. Oh my gosh, this exists.
Oh yes, it does. The Weed and Studies Association is
going strong, I tell you. Well, I mean, isn't that
incredible though, Because I feel like so much of media
that is either buy or four girls, or it's focused

(10:08):
around girls, and I mean girls, not women. I do
mean girls. Uh, It's it's so easy to brush it
off and and academia just tends to ignore it as
something girlish and sparkly and glittery. But here you have Buffy,
which is clearly so right for the analyzing, and people
really have oh yeah, because you have a show that's

(10:29):
loaded with allegory, mythology, cultural references, its own lexicon. You
can buy a glossary, a Buffy glossary put together by
a linguist um. And the Weeden Studies Association is not
just some you know, some Rando fans getting together. It's
it's not a site on geo cities. No, that's not

(10:51):
it's not as AA. It was co founded, for instance,
by an English professor, David Lavery at Middle Tennessee Stay University.
And as I was going through some of the papers
on their last night, I mean these are PhD students
who are submitting to their two journals, the Slayage, which

(11:12):
is the higher level journal, and then they have, uh,
the Watcher Junior, which is for I think more like
bachelor degree level students. And for a little taste of
the kinds of papers that are still coming out examining
Buffy up down in sideways, you have some current Slayage
articles Welcome to Buffy Dale, Mutual Construction of Bodies in

(11:35):
Space and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Okay, I also appreciated
this one. I thought it was very uh, very on
point for stuff Mom Never Told You negotiations after Hedgemony,
Buffy and gender, and I liked how the author describes
the major female characters in Buffy as possessing a pariah femininity.

(11:55):
Interesting pariah to whom to I think social convention. But
let's we'll get back to the pariahs in a moment.
There's also tying into another stuff Mom Never Told You
episode from a while back, heaps of images tarot cards
in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which also references the paper

(12:17):
Where's the Religion in the Willows WICCA? I mean, I
can see how if you're going to analyze this show
up down in sideways, you would have to eventually get
to the corner of the show that is the specific
WICA Willow practices. So let's offer a bird's eye view
if we can, of the primary Buffy characters and the

(12:39):
dynamics between them, kind of what propels each each episode.
Because in terms of genre, yes, you have the whole
vampire demons and witchcraft, etcetera. But it's a very genre
busting show, but a lot of the relationships between the
characters and like who they are, um are really reliable yeah.

(13:00):
Um And while we were preparing for this, it kind
of struck me that the entire show focuses on Buffy's
relationships with the women in her life. Um and And
it kind of occurred to me that that after a
season two, after the main arcs of her and Angel's
relationship are over, everything that she does is for either

(13:21):
herself or for the women that she's connected to. Um
and that's that's her, her mother, Joyce, her eventual sister
don Um. Spoiler alert. I'm not sure. I what's what's
the what's the deadline? I feel like if a show
comes out, we can okay, we can offer some spoilers.

(13:41):
Cool Yeah, yeah, her her super best friend ever Willow
um and and then and then some some surrounding characters,
some of the bad guys of Faith and Darla and
Drusilla and uh and and Cordelia of course I forgot Cordelia. Oh, Cordelia.
So we have the primary relationship then with her and
her mom, which I'm a fan of Joyce. I gotta say, like,

(14:04):
when I was thinking back to watching this show, which
I watched for several years before quitting, and that will
offer a transition in just a second. But I had
a blank spot in my brain where Joyce was supposed
to be. Like I, I could so clearly remember all
the other characters, like I could remember the details of
Terra's face, for instance, but like Joyce, I had and

(14:25):
I even googled her and nothing. There was nothing like that.
That's been replaced by like my early voting locations, which
is probably a good thing. Is she just the teacher
on Charlie Brown? Not even I literally didn't remember Buffy
had a mother any who. But I quit the show

(14:46):
for a very specific reason, and that is her fake
sister Dawn, You and a lot of other people. So
Don was introduced in what the fourth or fifth season? Fourth? Fifth? Fifth? Fifth? Okay, well,
so I watched it up to that point, and I
even think I watched some of that season, but basically, like,

(15:06):
here's Caroline. It's the early two thousands. At this point,
I'm in high school, and I'm like, yeah, I'm tuning
in for Buffy. And then I'm like, why is Michelle
Trachtenberg here? This is the worst? And then her character
irritated me enough, and the fact that she was there
as a sister all of a sudden annoyed me enough
that I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this

(15:26):
entire show. Was it your only child status could be?
I was like, who is this intruder? Who is this
we don't share? Dowey Buffy. She she grows up a
lot over the over the couple of years that she's
on the show, and and becomes i would say, probably
the most strongly feminist character by the end of the series. Interesting. So,

(15:49):
speaking of the character's maturity, one thing that just occurred
to me in terms of Buffy, who is obviously like
wise beyond her years, and a lot of ways she's facing,
you know, some obstacles we probably don't usually when we're
sixteen and seventeen, like you know, demons and such. Uh.

(16:09):
But she's still so grounded in her teenage ness, which
is in stark contrast to the first character that comes
to mind who really aggravates me as like the the older,
wiser teenage daughter in Casual this Hulu show if you've
seen it, Um, she's the only daughter of a now

(16:34):
single mom, and she's just so worldly wise to a
point where she kind of parents the parent and not
in a more innocent Rory Gilmore type of way towards
Laurel I, but really making her an adult, which could
have easily been done with Buffy. But especially when it

(16:56):
comes to her love life and her friendship ups and
even her relationship with Giles, they do such a good
job with um keeping her teenage ness very believable. Yeah,
and and hey have some of that innocence, even despite
all of the stuff that she goes through, Like at
her heart of hearts, she's just a girl who is

(17:18):
becoming a woman who wants to have the experiences that
all of her peers do and is mad that she
doesn't get them. And and I think that all of us, like, like,
I think that very huge fans of Buffy relate to
that in whatever specific way. Um, but you know, whatever
it is that that has happened in your life that
you can relate to, like, oh, man, like I feel
like part of my opportunity to be normal has been

(17:39):
taken away. And I think I can appreciate that they
don't try to just basically that they address it, that
they allow her to be like, man, this sucks because
she has the quote at one point of like this
isn't a job. I can just hang up at the
end of the day and then go snuggle with my honey.
You know, there's no like running around with other you know,
acquaintance type friends. And you have your core group of

(18:01):
friends who know who you are and what you are
and what you do, and they're helping you on this journey,
and everyone else is probably a little bit scared of
you and like just sort of wants to be over
there whenever you're around because some demon might come crashing
through the wall. And for a brief layout of the
Sunnydale High School universe where it starts and really what

(18:23):
the first three four seasons take place. While they're still
in high school. You have Buffy who shows up and
she comes with a reputation. I mean, obviously she's super attractive,
but everyone knows that she was transferred to the school
because something had happened so and that thing was that
she burned her previous school's jim down while fighting demons,

(18:50):
you know, a good cause. Uh, And she befriends Willow
and Xander Um who Xander, by the way, is really
just a young Chandler Bang. Yes, I'm so glad you
said that. I have always thought that, Yeah, he's a
young Chandler. I like him more than Chandler, but he
has a very Chandler. Yeah, we'll affect he does. He's

(19:14):
such a oh I have a problem with Xander Harris, y'all,
we'll get to Xander. We'll get to Xander. So we
we have Willow and Xander, who are the outcasts. And
I also appreciate buffis befriending of Willow in particular, but
both Willow and Xander, because of course, and Ander sees
Buffy and is like a hobble hobble um. And Buffy

(19:37):
is like, no, bro, let's just be friends and it
all and that ends up working out. But and Willow
is so kind of taken aback that Buffy would even
want to hang out with her. Just such a relatable
high school emotion. I know. Yeah, well, I mean especially
you know, Buffy is very stylish. She's from another city,
she I mean, she's from l A. She's coming into
this small town. And Willow is just like my mom

(19:58):
shops at sears for me. I don't know why you're
looking at me. You're so nice, so sweet. And then Xander,
of course, also has a crush on the uber popular
brunette Cordelia. Cordelia Chase. Oh man, what a perfect name,
by the way, right, Cordelia Chase. And at the beginning,

(20:18):
she is the queen bee of all the popular cheerleader
types and the jocks. And then of course you have
a school librarian, Giles, Giles the Watcher, and we know
he's smart because he speaks with a British accent. Yes,
I love Giles, I love Giles. Yeah. It's his whole

(20:39):
deal to sort of be the mentor to the group,
but specifically obviously to Buffy as the Watcher. And he
comes from what the council. What is it called, the council,
The Watchers Council. There, there you go. It's simple name. Um, yeah,
that the Watchers Council, which was constructed in order to
watch over and train slayers as as they are called,
because every time a slayer dies, a new one is called.

(21:02):
They're usually pretty confused about how they can like punch
through doors. Now, so some white guy with a British
accent comes and goes like, well, you have this obligation
to not just punch through doors because you like it,
but to punch through doors because vampires are on the
other side, and you need to kill them. And then
in the vampire realm, the main vampires you gotta know
are Angel, who is a vampire with a soul, which

(21:23):
means he's hunky, which means he's hunky, and he and
Buffy love each other. Oh man, yeah, they're They're sexual
attention is pretty great. Can I just say that, like,
I so distinctly, even though my brain has no space
for Joyce, apparently, I so distinctly remember the sex scene

(21:44):
between Buffy and Angel when he experiences true happiness and
therefore loses his soul. Although I do want to say
a really lovely thing about that was that his moment
of true happiness was not his orgas him. It was
when they were snuggling together afterwards. I didn't remember that,

(22:08):
so see Angel, I only partially clearly remembered it them. Well,
it's it's it's it's kind of a subtle thing. I
might have thought about this a lot, because because it's
problematic as heck, it's it's so problematic that that having
sex with this person that she loved made him turn
into a bad person. Yeah, but we'll we will, because
all your faiths are problematic. Of course. Also, I want

(22:30):
to point out that I'm wearing a clotter right now
because of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I love it so much. So.
In addition to everyone's favorite vampire boyfriend Angel, you have
on the more evil side Drusilla, who, by the way,
is now following stuff. Mom never told you on Twitter,
I think because we mentioned Buffy in a tweet and

(22:53):
she follows a lot of people, but I still felt
pretty special. Yeah, so hello, Drusilla, if you're listening, I
don't think she follows me. That's great, well do it? Yeah,
that would be amazing if she were listening. Uh. And
she and Spike the Evil Vampire are in cahoots too,
really just what tear up the world? Rain evil? And

(23:17):
she was made a vampire by Angel Yes Drusilla, Wait,
yeah he tortured her when when she was pre vampire? Yes?
Yes her and yeah because dar Darla sired Angel. Darla
is is another vampire UM and actually one of the
first characters that you see at the very beginning of
the series UM. The first ever episode opens on on

(23:41):
a big old dude leading a perky looking young lady
down a hallway, and then the young lady vamps and
it's Darla and she kills the dude. See, I had
forgotten about Darla, and when we were talking about she
kind of she's not around very long, right, Um now,
she kind of comes in and out and she she
dies of syphilis or something, right she vampirest I wait,

(24:03):
what am I thinking of? She has syphilis? I think
I read that she has she has Angels vampire baby,
and then something else happens. I don't remember. I knew
she had syphilis before she became a vampire because she
was as she was a prostitute. Okay, ye see we're

(24:24):
all learning things together as well as educating our listeners. Yeah.
So a Spike, Spike and Drusilla have a have a
very loving, bizarre, wonderful relationship. Um and and they kind
of get back together with with Angel, much to Angel's consternation.
And they get back together with Angel or Angelus as

(24:45):
he turns into, largely because of Jenny Callendar, which is
the fakest sounding name I've ever heard. So, Jenny Callendar
is a substitute teacher. Is she the sister of Marie
Calendar who makes the pop pies different calendar She's like
like months and weeks calendar even faker eating much faker. Yeah. Well,

(25:07):
and as it turns out, Jenny Callendar is fake as well. Yes.
Why why is Jenny Callendar fake? Well, because she's the
the dual Virgin and Horror who is set up to
come in and destroy like like lie to everyone and
destroy their lives by removing this by messing with Angel.

(25:27):
I don't I don't remember the plot reason. So Jenny Callendar,
if that is her real name, which it is not,
is a so called gypsy her words not mine um
and Angel apparently terrorized her people way back in the day.
And why he has a soul because he was cursed

(25:48):
with a soul right by them, and so they placed
this curse on him and if he ever experienced true happiness,
then his soul would be taken away, so he would
experience like ultimate pain. So Jenny Callendar comes to school
and she's like, oh, there's a British librarian. He's cool.
What are these Scooby Doo like kids doing? Hanging out

(26:11):
solving mysteries? And she kind of becomes one of the
gang for a while, and of course she and Giles,
you know, start making eyes at each other. But of
course she's also a technomanswer. Don't forget about that amazing word.
What like, I'm gonna not know what she's a she's
a techno answer, She's a she's a Internet which like

(26:32):
a ciberboy, I'm gonna need even more information because of
her quote unquote gypsy powers. She she's into magic and
more like reading about magic and like internet forums. I
don't know. She there's some really amazing clunky use of
technology terms. Yeah, show and she's she's she's She's comes

(26:53):
on the show as Willows computer teacher. Oh right, right,
because Willow is in the first season on this massive
traveling trunk size desktop tippy typing away, making her Guicity's page,
just like Young Caroline with that doing some some dogpile

(27:15):
searches for vampires finding things out. But Jenny Callender though
she is super important because she's getting all comfortable at
sunny Dale and wants to be all nice and stuff.
But then her again quote unquote, gipsy uncle comes back
and he's like, Jenny Gellender, you almost you almost enforced

(27:36):
the curse. So she does and that turns angel into
Angela's which leads to the second well after the sex scene,
um that we're going to talk about in a second,
which leads us to sort of this bigger question that
I'm sure everyone listening is wondering when we're gonna get to,
is the feminism of the show, Because Buffy always comes

(27:58):
up as like the most feminist television show ever, and
she's the most feminist character ever aside from maybe Hannah
Horvath on Girls j K. I'm just kidding. And Lauren,
we're going to get your expert insight on the feminism
of Josh Weeden and Buffy the Vampire Slayer when we
get right back from a quick break. So, I mean, Lauren,

(28:32):
you're an expert with Buffy, and so I have to
ask you because there's so much controversy around not only
the feminism of the show, but also just Wheeden's feminism
or lack thereof, So like I have to ask, I mean,
what do you think about that all of all of it? Is?
Is it a feminist show? Is Josh Weeden a feminist?
And I have a follow up question to that, is
it is there a controversy over it? Is there anyone

(28:54):
who would say no over some questionable elements of the
show and also some questionable things that Josh Weeden has said, Yeah,
there's like, like you said earlier, like all all your
favors are problematic, and it's okay to like problematic things,
and it's okay to hold up certain parts of of
what of of of what you love and to kind

(29:15):
of like just be aware of the other parts and
go like, well, it's it's real weird that, for example,
two of the times that that Buffy has sex, she
is super shamed for it by not only the dude
but all of her friends. Um. That's crappy. Uh, it's
also realistic, and I think that that's why the show
did it. I don't think that the show is holding

(29:36):
that behavior up as laudable certainly, Um, but it was.
It was something that women go through, and especially women
of that age. Yeah, I gotta say that. I watched
the episode where Buffy and Angel sleep together for the
first time for the first time, just a couple of
days ago, and even watching it as a thirty one

(29:58):
year old, it was like the feelings she was going
through a very reminiscent of situations I found myself in
of of suddenly you go to sleep with Angel and
wake up with an with angelous and uh, and so
I in a way I appreciated that honesty, but I

(30:18):
can absolutely see why it does seem problematic, especially when
years down the line when she's dating this kind of
rando Parker who there's really nothing that's special about him
um and they sleep together and he turns it into
a jerk again, right yeah, which I which I think
is meant to mirror what happened between her and Angel

(30:40):
and Buffy just having to have that moment of like,
it's not just demons. Sometimes it's just dudes. Sometimes it's
just people. Sometimes people can suck as much as demons.
And it's not that he is a demon, it's just
that he's not nice. I'm really asking is because I
don't know it does it kind of serve to reinforce
the fact that, like, hey, Buffy, you don't have time

(31:00):
for this stuff, Like do you think it's it's to
help direct her back to like, don't get lost in
all of this dating crap. You've got to save the world. Yeah.
I think that that's largely the point of season four
of Buffy. That's the season in which she goes on
to have a relationship with Riley Um after she has
this kind of flame with Parker and uh and and
in the notes like you you put Riley parentheses. Uh

(31:23):
uh uh uh and I laughed out loud at my
desk and startled. Absolutely no one because there's no one
here today. But but but but yeah. Throughout season four,
she it's her trying to have that normal college relationship
experience and to be a good girlfriend and she's not.

(31:44):
Um and the dude leaves at the end and all
of us rejoiced because he was terrible and that plotline sucked.
But but but yeah, I think that that's the point
that she realizes, like, I I have to live for me.
I can base my life around these dudes. And of
course she has other lovers and it gets complicated and messy,

(32:05):
But I think that overall, the message about her relationships
with guys is that is that you have to do
you like like and that doesn't it doesn't matter whether
you're a dude or a lady or or whatever else
you identify as. It's it's just a human element of
of needing to put yourself first. But does that also
hold for her relationship with Spike, which a lot of

(32:27):
people point out as a problematic to use that term again,
relationship because of its dynamic. Uh, it's it's extremely violent
dynamic in which the first time that they have sex,
they literally bring a house down around them. Yeah. Um,
and and in which they they are frequently not nice

(32:48):
to each other. She she refuses to acknowledge to her
friends and family that they're together. Um, which is terrible.
Even if you are dating a demon, that's just not
a cool thing to do. Quote of the episode. I
don't know I've dated. I've dated plenty of demon bartenders
who I didn't acknowledge to my family. Well, I mean

(33:11):
eventually it becomes a thing, like I mean, like once
over over a certain period of time. I don't know
how long were they dating or quote unquote dating a
long time, like the better part of a season at least. Yeah,
but so and and one of the one of the
problems that I that I think you're you're trying to

(33:32):
bring the conversation around to here is is a h
critical moment in the show where Spike engages in non
consensual sexual contact with Buffy. Um. It doesn't go as
far as as him raping her, and it's unclear to
his character at the time that it's not the normal

(33:57):
banter that they have when they have sex um and
it becomes a turning point for Spike. That is the
moment when Spike goes, oh no, this me not having
a soul thing is a problem. I want to be
a better person. I want to be a better person
for this woman and for her family. So I'm going
to go out and get myself either get myself a

(34:18):
soul or die trying. So how does he get one?
There's trials. He like beats up a demon or something,
so he didn't go out and get a curse. No, Well,
and then he also becomes very protective over Dawn and always.
Buffett briefly dies spoiler alert, Yeah, she like sacrifices herself right, Yeah,
it's a second time in the series that she dies.

(34:40):
But cool when when in all of this, the Spike
build a Buffy bot so he can technically have sex
with Buffy but anytime he wants to like that was
that was an episode that I'm gonna need some details this.
Yeah that this is one of the three episodes that
I reckon mended. Y'all watch for for its like gender

(35:02):
troops and stuff, because Spike is obsessed. But before before
they start hooking up, he is obsessed with Buff. Okay,
so this is pre hook This is prior to the hookup. Yeah,
and he he has this like love hate thing going on,
and he has such a boner for her. Can I
say that on the show? Can go for our owners? Great? Um?
And uh? And he goes to this dude in town

(35:23):
who he knows has previously built a sex spot because
that happens. Um uh And he says, hey, I need
I need you to make a Buffy Bot or I'm
going to kill you because I'm a vampire, So you
should go ahead and do that. And and that that
dude is Warren, who becomes a villain later on in
the show. Um and and yeah, um, you know that's creepy.

(35:45):
That's that I mean, I guess it's but I guess
you could contextualize that too with this is Spike pre
realizing that his soul is a problem, Like Spike has
no morality, right And and also I guess it's better
than just continuing to hit on Buffy when she doesn't
want that attention. And buffy Bot was very consensual. She loved,

(36:08):
she did love. She was programmed to love having sex
with Spikes. I don't know why I'm really trying to like, uh,
justify sex bots. But you like them bad boys. It's
it's like those bad bots. Oh no, um, I don't know.

(36:28):
I found buffy Bot in a way endearing because because
I was just like, oh, Spike, all all you want
is someone to love you. You just want someone like
a Japanese body pillow, except a robot that looks like
your enemy. Yeah, well, I gotta have a thing. I
kind of like Buffy Bot too, just like her her character,

(36:49):
and she comes back and she's she is helpful yea
at certain Buffy. But yeah, well they they take buffy
Bot away from Spike and Willow just like keeps her
in a basement somewhere because because the machinery is really interesting,
so to speak. Cool. All right, That's all I need
to know. So circling back to Giles, then let's also

(37:10):
talk about this relationship, which some people also find a
little bit problematic. In fact, Natasha Simon's over at the
Mary Sue calls it quote the male gaze made manifest
because arguably he's this paternalistic figure who is protecting Buffy.
But you said you love him. I do love him.

(37:33):
I'm just asking about the relationship. I think that ultimately
it's a positive one that they both learn a lot from.
And and I don't think I don't think it's bad
to have a paternalistic relationship. I mean because when when
it turns out to be positive like that when uh, eventually,
through the course of the show, Giles gains a lot

(37:57):
of respect for for Buffy, realizes that she's the leader
of the group that he is not um and and
becomes a follower and a friend to her and uh,
And it goes through a lot of wrinkles on the show,
which which is really interesting to me, where he um
he bosses everyone around and is and it's like like

(38:18):
terrible father and leaves his absent father and then comes
back and and is terrible again. Um, and he's he's
a very human character. And I don't I have I
have zero problems with Rupert Giles. Yeah, I side eyed
the concept of him being the male gays made manifest

(38:39):
because it's a two way relationship. It's not like he
is lording over Buffy in some way like in the
very beginning of the first season as they're kind of
establishing their dynamic. Okay, but even where Giles is super
book smart and can be kind of a knowe it
all sometimes, like Buffy also is very helpful for him,

(39:04):
even just like emotionally, not in the sense of slaying vampires. Yeah,
the Watcher's Council is set up to be that that
male gaze personified, that paternalistic in a bad way, kind
of creepy thing. Uh, But it's partially due to Giles
character that that he has lived beyond that, that he

(39:25):
that he is more trusting and generous with h with
with his power, with with the power that Buffy has
um that that let Buffy become what she does. So
it's it's it's really reversal of the trope, like like,
this is a character who is meant to be that
in other shows would have been that, but on this
show was not. Well, what about Xander? So, like, you know,

(39:48):
we've talked about several of the male characters, and a
lot of what I read about Xander doesn't discuss him
from the point of view of him being like the funny,
sarcast like Chandler Bang of the show, which is kind
of how I always thought about him. But when you
go back and read about him in context, he sounds
terrible and so could you refresh my memory about some

(40:12):
of that stuff. Yeah, this is actually this is actually
going to also answer the question of yours that I
did not answer earlier, which is, do I think that
Josh Weeden is a feminist or a good enough feminist
if we can ever any any of us the feminist? Um?
So so so Xander Harris um is clearly a a
merry sue character for Josh Weeden, I think, um, but

(40:35):
by which I mean like, he is the stand in
for that writer creator. Um. He's he's that writer creator's
voice on the show. Um, the awkward, nice guy who
messes up and has terrible consequences that he has never
actually called to call to blame for because he's the

(40:59):
stand in for the show creator. Um. Xander Harris. At
various points in the first couple of seasons, UM very
rare very nearly rapes Buffy when he is possessed by
a demon. It turns out that he remembers that, and
he gets off like like Buffy is just like, oh
you were you were possessed by a demon. Everything is
super chill, and Xander's like, I'm just not going to
tell her that I remember everything, and I'm like, hold

(41:19):
up what Okay? When Buffy and angel have their final confrontation,
Buffy and a jealous rather uh, Xander's jealousy is what
leads to Buffy needing to kill a jealous Xander chooses
not to tell Buffy that there is a better way
to do it, that there is a possibility that Willow

(41:40):
could come through with a spell to make to make
the death unnecessary, but he chooses not to do it,
and that is why Angelous goes to hell. And is
that why you hate Xander? I'm mad about that one? Um?
He uh? Well, I mean I'm mad. I'm mad about that,
and I'm mad that no one on the show ever
calls him on that. I guess I'm at at everyone

(42:00):
around him. And yet he gets too secretly cannodal with Cordelia. Yeah,
and then whole all, I'm just having so many memories. Okay,
I'm so mad about things, mad with a y yes?
Um okay, so so yeah. So so Xander then gets
to hook up with Cordelia, and once he's with Cordelia,
he starts looking back at Willow, who's had a crush

(42:21):
on him for her entire life, and then he starts
going oh, well, now that now that Willows in a
relationship and I'm in a relationship, maybe my I can
I can have feelings for Willow too, And so he
instigates them both cheating on their partners at the time.
Also is never never really, I mean I guess that one,
like he has some consequences for Cordelia definitely leaves him

(42:44):
and is like nope, never again. And Willow's boyfriend Oz
the werewolf, yeah, also gets very upset and doesn't he
leave town after that? Yeah? Okay, Well, and uh see
Smith is not a fan of how Cordelia leaves. She
feels like Cordelia ended up being disposable, although on on

(43:05):
the back side of things, like she was going to
the spin off Angel, So yeah, that that was a
that was a show choice, not a not a character choice.
And Cordelia is such a such an interesting character, I
think because she's I think she's a representation of what
Buffy would have been if she had not been given
these powers, and so every time that she's shallow or horrible, uh,

(43:31):
it's it's a cautionary tale. But that's interesting though, because
you're saying that Xanders, the stand in for the show
creator and here's the super popular, gorgeous woman who still
has these moments where the audience is thinking, like, God,
you're such a dits. But she's the one that ends
up with I mean, until she leaves ends up with Sander.

(43:51):
Oh and she's also she's also not a total dits.
There's a great moment towards the end of season three
where they're all getting their s A T scores back
and it's revealed that Cordelia is actually in the top
ten percent of their graduating class. And and I think
her line is like, what, I can't have layers? Well,
and she's also very cool under pressure. Oh yeah, yeah.
She turns out to be a very useful member of

(44:12):
the team, like partially because of like hairspray and whatever.
But she has a car. She's the only one of them. Yeah,
you gotta have a friend with the car. And I
can agree with that. I get so much frizz she
she turns into a very much more interesting character on

(44:32):
On Angel after some also extraordinarily problematic things happened. Um,
And I'm also interested in your point of view on
some of like the slash fiction, because there is a
lot based on Buffy and Faith Eliza Dish Goose character,
people like really wanted them to end up together. They
said that Faith basically who's like the the dark side

(44:56):
version of Buffy, she looks like Jessica Jones kind of
that like these two women are just better when they're together,
that they should, they should be together, Buffy should so
naturally they should make out. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot
of yeah, a lot of push for that. I think
that of all the characters on the show that like
possibly wanted to make out with each other, Buffy and
Faith are really low on the list. Like I'm not

(45:18):
going to say that I've never encountered that fiction, but
I've always just gone like, well, like why why that thing?
And I guess it's because their attractive human people and
they're both Slayers who are who are also in like
close physical contact with each other but in a fighty way,
which is which is sexy or something? Um, I don't know. Well,

(45:38):
And speaking of female sexuality, though, we do have Tara
and Willow's relationship, which not the very first lesbian relationship
on TV, but one of and especially on such a
mainstream show, and I believe it's like the first positive
and long time recurring lesbian relationship on TV. Yeah, and

(46:00):
that also was dynamic and changed over the course of
time as a Willow. Willow's addiction to magic is a
very clear metaphor for addiction to drugs, and she goes
through in season six. I believe, um, this this long
arc of of addiction and problematic relationship with Tara. As
she's lying to Tara about this addiction of hers, she

(46:21):
winds up using magic to erase Tara's memories about some
of the fights that they're having. And and I thought
that it was really nice to see a lesbian relationship
portrayed as as such a human relationship. Um. Yeah, it
seemed pretty clear that it wasn't there for shock value

(46:42):
or to be sellation or titilation. Yeah. Josh Sweden chose
um that the first moment that they kiss on screen
to be uh spoiler alert, Um, the during the episode
where Joyce Buffy's mother has just died, and it's it's
a it's a moment where Tara, like like Willow, is
just freaking out and Tear just takes her face in

(47:03):
her hands and kisses her in like the most gentle,
comforting way possible. And uh, and I and I and
I read that or heard one way or another that
that was so much on purpose to to take all
of this sexual sexuality out of it, to take all
of the salaciousness out of it. Um. One thing though,
that you do not see on the show, and this
does hearken back to our Gilmour Girls conversation while back,

(47:26):
is that there is nary a person of color really ever.
I think the only aside from extras maybe in in
the background halls at Sunnydale High, not really The first
person of color, especially woman of color with a speaking
role that I remember seeing on the show is in

(47:47):
the episode when way later in season six, No five,
Season five, Buffy goes out into the desert to have
a vision. She's on like basically like on a vision quest.
The Giles takes her out for she finally gets it
and her vision becomes this uh woman of color who

(48:07):
has like very tribal esque face paint on. Is that
the first Layer? Yeah? Yeah, because she that woman comes
back in her dreams in season seven. Okay, so the
first Layer, And as she's dancing around the fire, I
was just thinking, oh, oh my, oh wow, it's super problematic.

(48:33):
It's it's angrifying. There was a woman of color with
a speaking role or earlier on the show, um, one
of the other slayers, Kendra played by Biancle Lawson, who
whose character I believe was from Jamaica or Haiti maybe
and had this very over the top at the actress
has an American accent, but she was coached into this

(48:56):
very weird sounding accent that I'm not positive that she
was performing well. Uh. And there were all of these
strange racial stereotypes, um surrounding her and it wasn't very
complimentary and like like mostly about like like her her
culture being uh kind of backwoods, Oh totally well. And

(49:19):
then with the first Slayer, you get a similar kind
of thing of the woman of color being very exotic
sized and primitive. Yeah and and authentic um and uh.
Later later in the series, in the seventh season, a
whole bunch of other potential slayers come into the show
from all over the world due to specific plot reasons.

(49:41):
And and they are even then, even at the seventh
season of the show, when it has been on for
so long, still treated as as token people of color. Yeah,
there was like one black woman, Like you would think
that when slayers are showing up from all over the world,
not just the ones fine, and I think was there
one age and a woman. Yeah, there was a Chinese

(50:02):
woman I believe, who doesn't speak any English and is like,
it's a huge joke that she's lectose, intolerant. I don't know,
it's it's really it's really bad. There's plenty of villains
who are people of color. Yeah, but this also, I mean,
if you and this is not to take the show
off the hook, but it is helpful to remember that

(50:25):
during this time, with shows like Dawson's Creek, Buffy, Gilmore Girls,
all of these incredibly popular shows were so completely white.
They were just one and white almost um. So it
is good to see that at least now, um, characters

(50:45):
of color are not as completely rendered invisible or tokenized
to the same degree that they were. And I would
think that if Josh Weeden were making the show today
that he would not pete that I would. I would
I would hope that's that's one of the things that
that that's one of the criticisms that is frequently lobbied

(51:08):
against Jesse Weeden. And I mean, you know, I don't
I don't know the dude, all I all I know
is the media that he has put out, and and
he has a pretty consistent rate of not including people
of color on his shows, and when he does, having
some just real awkward stuff around, you know, like the
one black guy on Angel is from the hood and

(51:30):
likes the basketball and stuff like that, and it's sort
of like a dude, um there. There's one interesting moment
in season seven that where Buffy is speaking to the
new principle of the high school and and he is
a black guy and uh, and he says something about
about his youth and and like and like rough times

(51:50):
or something like that, and and she says, awkwardly for
the show's purpose on purpose, oh because you're from the street,
And he says, I'm from a street, not like the street.
Such an odd choice. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, Like,

(52:11):
did you just make your main character real racist on purpose?
Like is that what? Just? And then like I mean
at least the dude like called her on it, like
that's cool. Yeah, yeah, Ish. So I mean it seems like,
I don't know, Joss Weeden feminist, sure, but maybe it
needs to work on some intersectionality. I would certainly say
that that is the case. UM. And in terms of

(52:31):
in terms of the show's overall feminism though, I think
it's undaniably feminist if you look at the structure of
the slayage and how the first Slayer was put in
that position, and the whole dynamic between these female slayers
and the Watcher's Council and all of the patriarchal overtones,

(52:55):
and then when you have in the final season the
arrival of Caleb, who really is the patriarchy embodied and
kind of the ultimate big bad Yeah. Yeah, he's just
a walking demon m r A. It's it's really really
ridiculous and over the top and wonderful UM also played
by Nathan Phillion, who is another Jaw Sueden favorite cast member.

(53:15):
But so is that a redemptive ending then, because I
know some people were dissatisfied with the final season, although
there a final season of any show that people love, UM,
it seems like that that puts a final point on
the whole thing of like, yeah, if in case you
hadn't been getting it for the past seven seasons, I mean,

(53:36):
I'm speaking as jos Waeden. Yeah, this is what this
show UM. A brief riendown of what goes on in
season seven, the bad Guys literally blow up the Watchers
Council spoilers, Yeah, I'm sorry, um uh literally blow up
the patriarchy that Buffy has been living in. Um. And

(53:57):
then this new version, this new, scarier version of the
patriarchy embodied by Caleb shows up, and then she just
kills the heck out of him. Um, And and then
realizes that that she cannot be she cannot be a

(54:18):
typical male leader. She cannot be a masculine force. That
is Oh goodness, it's it's so it's so problematic trying
to even describe a woman in that kind of position
of power that Buffy comes into by the end of
the series. Um. So I'm like so bossy and brassy. Um.
I think authoritarian is a word that comes up a lot. Okay, yes, um,

(54:40):
that that she cannot be an authoritarian leader, that she
needs the help of her of her friends, and that
she needs um to allow herself to be emotional and
tender and loved, and and that is how in the
end she uh destroys the bad guys and saves the world,
and she passes along her slaying to all the potentials.

(55:01):
So it becomes like the feminine community, the sisterhood, and
and furthermore, her her boyfriend, who is the feminine partner
in their relationship, sacrifices himself in order for her to
get her job done, which is problematic in its own way.
The number of lady partners in relationships like like the

(55:23):
the fem partner, the fem partners that die in Josh
Weeden relationships is all of them, and that is real weird.
I don't like that one. So people, regardless of whether
they are male or female, if their partner is more feminine,
they tend His characters tend to kick the bucket. The
feminine one is the one that dies in order to

(55:45):
progress the masculine one. Storyline interesting. I mean, here's the
thing when it comes to conversations around Josh Sweden and feminism,
and I'm saying, this is someone who is not a
weed and die hard. Not that I don't him, I'm
just not. I have not consumed all of his content
to put it in digital media terms, but to me

(56:08):
as more of an outsider looking in, I wonder what
the point of kind of placing this feminist mantle upon
his shoulders really is, because it turns into this question
not of is Josh Weeden of feminist because like Beyonce,
he says he's a feminist, but there are things kind
of like Beyonce where I don't know, I don't know,
I mean, is he really good enough of that? And

(56:29):
that's where that's where you lose me, where I'm like, really,
that's not the point exactly. And I'm glad you said
that because that takes me back to the episode that
you and I did on Beyonce where we were having
the exact same conversation of like why do people need
to ask I asked you whether he was a feminist
for a very specific reason, and that is because in

(56:51):
our Beyonce episode, I brought up the point of like
there will be other feminists, there will be other cupcakes,
as I think what I said, and that just I
was trying to give the example of how I like,
you know, don't I won't let myself get every single
cupcake that comes into the office. People want to have
that pop cultural powerful force that comes in and like

(57:12):
eradicates problematic media. And I think when you start to
give an indication of like, hey, I'm feminist, I get it,
like I'm gonna promote powerful women and show these great
images on screen. I think that there is a degree
out among the masses of like, oh yes, thank you all,
thank God finally and see the perfect cupcake. You will

(57:34):
be the cupcake to end all other cupcakes. I will
never need another one. And so then when someone makes
a creative decision or just a human choice that is human,
or makes a mistake or whatever, I think it's that
much it can be that much easier to criticize, but
also it can be that much more painful for the
people who were depending on that person to be the

(57:55):
end all be all feminists, rather than just exercising our
own media literally see and selectiveness as we as we
so choose as feminist consumers. It's shortsighted into me, frankly,
a waste of energy to conflate a celebrity feminist, which
both Weed and Beyonce are. How Beyonce they ended up

(58:18):
in this conversation, I don't know, by the way, but
I'm totally fine with it, um. But to conflate that
with not problematic whatsoever, Like there's there's this unnecessarily high bar.
I think that we sometimes establish for uh feminists where yes,
people should be held accountable for their actions. But to

(58:40):
presume that feminism means ethically perfect, right, you're setting yourself
up for a disappointment. Yeah, we're all human, and we're
all learning and and and certainly in people were still
learning and and there's been so much excellent, uh, just
public discourse about how to portray how to portray human people,

(59:05):
women and men and everything um on the screen. And
I think that Buffy has been an undeniable progression in
seeing different types of characters who who display different types
of genders um and and and sexualities in pop culture
and especially in pop culture specifically for young girls. And

(59:27):
one other thing I'm curious about from people like you,
who who are more well versed in the Weed and
Cannon and also weed and fandom, is this sense that
I have gotten over time that there's even more he
receives a lot more feminist gravitas because he's a man,

(59:50):
and that if he were a female showrunner, like say
Shonda Rhimes, who's super feminist, there's usually a lot more
scrutiny I feel like applied to women using their platform,
or the dismissal that you're just making girl things for
girls totally because of course we want to give a

(01:00:11):
guy a round of applause if he is daring to
create a capital as strong female character. And I'm not
I'm not putting down what he did at all. I'm
more interested in how we uh, how we perceive that
a guy doing that differently than perceiving say again to

(01:00:33):
Shanna Rhymes, Shanna Rhymes creating Olivia Pope, who isn't extremely
strong female character, but it doesn't feel as daring because
she you know, it's a woman elevating a woman. Yeah.
I feel like I feel like I should just like
pull up Twitter quotes and and like and like quotes
and Twitter right now, because I there's such amazing conversation

(01:00:56):
about that over there, and I'm happy for a lot
of things that he's said. I I mean, we we
need men like Weeden who are totally cool with not
only talking the talk but also making feminist media. Yeah.
I I do think that there are more props that

(01:01:17):
are given to two guys who step into that conversation
than than props are given to women for the same thing.
Because yeah, because it's like, well, of course, of course
you're you're talking about feminism, You're you're a lady human
and so that's what you want to do. And like,
has there has there been backlash against uh, the lady
creator of Jessica Jones for um oh, I mean the

(01:01:37):
comic book I believe was Brian Michael Bendis, but but
the TV show was a female creator and she was
one of the creators of the Twilight series of films. Um.
Which is a really interesting flip to me in terms
of how how the media that you were producing is
dealing with with gender. Well. And that's interesting because from

(01:01:58):
what I remember when it first came out, my Twitter
feed was just full of praise, including my own tweets
for Jessica Jones and how it was uh you know,
addressing rape and consent and all of these other factors um,
and also her just being a literally and figuratively strong
female character. But it was more focused on the content
rather than the creator so much. UM. And I again,

(01:02:22):
I wonder if that's because of gender, because there's a
presumption that it's a bigger risk for Amand to step
out and claim feminism, when in fact, I would argue
the opposite, that was risk for a woman. Yeah, yeah,
you've got Yeah, people are gonna not not necessarily, and
I think it's changing, and I mean, I hope it's changing,
but I do think people are like, oh, that is
so nice of him to help those ladies out. They

(01:02:45):
really needed a hand up, and that's strong man just
stepped right in and did that for them, And I
just love him for that. It's a little he it's
a little Xandery every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, And
I do think that we is worth addressing because Buffy
has the staying power not only because of the show,

(01:03:06):
but the entire culture that it created, the entire academic fields,
the space that it has put out there to allow
for for not for not only those kind of of
women characters doing women stuff on on TV and in movies,
but um, but also the genre bending, the possibility that

(01:03:26):
it opened up to to have really comedic, dramatic horror
that's super comic bookie and has like seven minute fight
scenes for sometimes for like no real reason that anyone
can discern. Especially the fight coordinators. Uh, sometimes they looked
real bored. I've got to be honest, like they were.
There were days on Buffy that I was like, oh, no,
one was having a good time at this fake cemetery. Um,

(01:03:47):
but uh, but no, it's it's fun and uh, and
it has fun with what it's doing, and it's creators
are men, and they're telling stories about human people. And
I think that that we needed that so badly and

(01:04:07):
it's crazy that we didn't have it. I I feel
like it. It It brought a much deeper level of person
ability to to television, especially and I can't think of
a character before Buffy who was so sexy, nearly sexy,
but not overly sexualized on the show. Yeah, and she did,

(01:04:29):
especially in seasons like one and two. She did wear
like a lot of mini skirts and like like big
old boots and stuff like that. But uh, but it
was never like panti shots. I mean, it was like
like the character was meant to be cute and sexy,
but yeah, it was that was a function of her character,
and I I honestly love that her character was allowed

(01:04:50):
to be girly like that. Um, allowing someone to present
their gender how they want to, because it's so unfeminist
to say what a feminie ut is supposed to look like.
One final question though, for you, does Buffy ever get
her period on the show? No? In the movie, it's

(01:05:13):
a plot point. Um, in the movie, the way that
Buffy knows when a vampire is near is she starts
getting cramps. I could not make this up. I could
not and one not joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayers cramps. Um.
But I kind of love that. But no, I don't

(01:05:34):
think that. I don't think that any time in the
entirety of that series did anyone u Xander. Xander at
one point is going through Willow's bag looking for something,
um and and it's just like you know, throwing like
hair brushes and books and whatever, and like comes across
a tampon and realizes what it is and goes and
like tosses it. Um. But I think that's literally the
only time that periods ever come up on the show,

(01:05:56):
which I feel like it's a thing that dude roommate
would still do, throw your throw your tampons if he
came across the tampon in a rapper. Yeah, Like I
feel like you would still be like, So that's not yeah,
I don't that's another like that stinks, but it's realistic

(01:06:16):
fashtag not all Sanders. Well, Lauren, thank you so much
for coming on the show and sharing your wealth of
Buffy knowledge. Thank you so much for letting me sit
here and and listening to me babble about Buffy. Most
people aren't as interested when I start going into minor
plot points of a television show that ended over a
decade ago. So it's delightful. And if there are listeners

(01:06:41):
who haven't seen Buffy and are intimidated by the fact
that there are seven seasons, it's a lot of cannonball
into Do you say, just start at the beginning or
do you have any good like intro episode that you
would recommend, um or just one of your faves, one
of your all time favorite episodes. Oh goodness, there's too
many of them. Um. I would say as a super

(01:07:02):
fan that if if you want to understand everything that
Buffy is about, there are callbacks to stuff that happens
in season one at the end of season seven. So
so starting at the beginning and honestly slogging through some
of the works in progress that this show was at
that point is very rewarding. Um. Other than that, I'll

(01:07:22):
try to I'll try to come up with something great,
uh and and like a really pithy wrap up episode
to to put on on social media. But I guess
I guess hush Um, which is a horror one off
from season four is is a really good place to
to kind of jump in and see. It's an unusual episode,

(01:07:43):
but but it shows the depth and breadth of everyone's
talents on the show and to keep people, including myself
going because there's still stuff I need to watch. Do
you have a favorite season? Oh uh, maybe maybe season three,
or maybe season five or maybe season six. Now I

(01:08:07):
think season three or season five. Okay, it's like they're
like both up there. Excellent. There's a lot of shirtless
Spike in season five and I really can't recommend that enough. Yeah.
One of my one of my best girlfriends was all
about Spike in high school. I mentioned I was doing
this episode. She was like, oh, Spike, are you going
to talk about Spike? Well, listeners, Buffy fans calling all

(01:08:33):
y'all to the yard. What do y'all think about Buffy
and feminism and jazz, Sweden and vampires and all this
fun stuff, and what is your favorite or at least
favorite episodes seasons? Share it all with us mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.
You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

(01:08:54):
to share with you when we come right back from
a quick break. And I have a letter here from
Megan in response to our empower tizing episode. Megan says, uh, well,
I loved it. There was one sentence I have to
take issue with. One of you said, there's no empirical

(01:09:14):
proof that commercials are going to solve sexism. Not entirely true.
Did you know that thanks to the tobacco industry targeting
women from torches of freedom to you've come a long
way baby, to the more insidious modern methods of product
placement and popular TV programs like Madmen and House of Cards,
Women and men suffer from the same number of deaths

(01:09:35):
owing to smoking induced lung cancer. In the far past,
the number of men who died from this horrific disease
was considerably higher than the number of women, but nowadays
it's much the same. Isn't it great to know that
although we haven't achieved equality and pay, political representation, or
almost any other area, thanks to the advertising industry, we
as a gender have the same chance of dying and

(01:09:58):
untimely painful, preventable death student cigarette consumption as do men
what achievement? Please forgive my British irony. Doesn't that make
you want to vomit or set fire to every advertising
agency in the world. Having nursed my mother through cancer,
this topic makes me really angry. I often refer my
students to your podcast. If they won't do the recommended reading,
I hope they will do some recommended listening. So may

(01:10:21):
I please ask you to mind young women how dangerous
smoking is and not cool and definitely not original and
very definitely not a feminist statement. Uh. Thank you so much,
Megan for your very true point about advertising equality. So
I've got a letter here also about that episode, from Melissa,
who has a story about her grandmother. She writes, my

(01:10:44):
grandmother and I were chatting at the kitchen table over
coffee one day, and somehow we got onto the topic
of feminine hygiene. I used cloth pads at the time.
I've since had a hysterectomy, and I was asking her
about feminine products of her time. She told me abou
of the time when her sister Jane had a most
horrible experience while working in New York as a rocket.

(01:11:06):
Jane was told by fellow a fellow dancer that lysol
would help her stay fresh and avoid having a baby.
So she went home, armed with her new knowledge and
went straight to the restroom. She apparently placed lysol the
kind you clean with, in a douche bag, undeluded, and
proceeded to freshen her Lady bits. My grandmother, who shared

(01:11:27):
the apartment with her, her her scream olive I'm burning.
My grandmother recalled that she found my aunt Jane in
the bathtub, sobbing and running cold water over her vagina.
She said it took an hour to stop burning and
that Jane was tender down there for days. My grandmother
and I laughed at Jane's expense for a long time,
and then my grandma gave me the same advice you did, Melissa, Honey,

(01:11:50):
don't douche with lysol. It's not to be used down there,
Oh Melissa. Has there ever been greater grandmother advice? I
think not so. Thanks everyone for sharing all of your stories,
including your douching stories. We'd love to hear them all.
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

(01:12:10):
email address and for links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos and
podcasts with our sources So you can learn even more
about the Buffy verse. Head on over to Stuff Mom
Never told You dot com for more on this and
thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot

(01:12:32):
com