June 2, 2010 • 27 mins
Popular culture would suggest that heterosexual men and women can't have purely platonic relationships, but is this claim really valid? Molly and Cristen take a closer look at cross-sex friendships in this episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From house Stop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen. I'm Molly Today. Our question, Molly
(00:21):
comes from a movie that a lot of people have seen,
and I kind of wanted to not have to talk
about this movie because this movie comes up and almost
every article that we ran across when we were researching
this specific question, which is ken men and women really
be friends? And by now all of our wise listeners
(00:42):
probably know that I'm talking about the movie when Harry
met Sally starring Billy Crystal and Meg Ry and my
two favorite actors in Hollywood. Right, they're such your favorite thing,
you didn't even want to talk about the movie they
made together, right or else? Then? I just want to
do a podcast. Has thought how great Billy Crystal is?
He is a zany, fun guy. Kristen totally underrated. For
(01:05):
getting me off track, I'm trying to roundtrack. I'm intentionally
trying to distract you for some reason because you don't
want to talk about this question and it's impact in
the movie. Right, I mean, the whole movie revolves around
these two friends, Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan Harry Sally.
Harry and Sally. First, I was gonna say, I don't
remember their names in the movie. Um it's a little
(01:26):
early in the morning here in Atlanta. Uh, but yeah,
it just revolves around Harry and Sally's friendship that eventually
evolves into a romance. Spoiler alert, well a little late
for spoiler alert came out in the nineteenaightes, I think
we're safe. Well, you know, some people, some younger listeners,
might not have seen it. But early in the movie,
(01:48):
Harry says that men and women can never be friends
because at one point someone one or the other will
want to take it romantic. They'll want to have sex.
They will want to have sex. I was trying to
be a little more euphemistic about it, Molly. No, I mean,
I think I don't even think Billy Crystal would want
the romance. He just said, at one point, they're going
to have sex. They're going to have sex. Their hormones
will get the better of them. It's impossible to avoid.
(02:10):
And thus men and women cannot be friends. And you know,
if you believe the outcome of the movie, they can't
because they end up married and in love. And you know,
Kristen's given this a spoiler alert, but the two do
get together and they get married in their in love
and I think that this movie may have ruined, you know,
a generation of people who might have had a crushed
(02:32):
on one of their male friends, was like, eventually, it's
gonna be like when Harry met Sally, He's gonna be
my Harry. Eventually, it's all gonna work out. It's okay
that I'm single now because I got my Harry. But
I think that really does a disservice to the men
and women who can be friends without sex entering the picture.
And so we're going to talk today about the possibilities,
the struggles, the benefits, all the great things that come
(02:57):
from as the researchers call them, cross ex friendships, cross
sex friendships. Yes, and I'm gonna stay right now Molly
and answered this question. I would like to hope. But yes, indeed,
men and women can be friends, because what's wrong with that?
You know, I mean, guy friends are great. Yeah, I
think that, you know, they can bring something different to
(03:18):
a friendship than maybe your female friends can. I think
you can get something from every friendship, regardless of the
gender of the person who is your friend. Every friendship
is different. It's like a snowflake. Um. But a lot
of people have done writing on the fact that when
two females get together and talk, they're talking about their
emotions and their boy troubles and it's just on and on,
(03:40):
and it's repetitive. It's you know, you're always going over
all your drama, whereas if you're hanging out with a
guy friend, you're more likely to be you know, watching
a movie, looking up crazy things online, or if you're talking,
it might just be about more general subjects like sports
or TV programs you both like, or funny jokes. I mean,
(04:00):
there is some gossip. I think that definitely goes on
Franks gossip, and of course you will discuss what's going
on in your life, so relationships might be a part
of that. UM. And we want to go ahead and
say that, you know, as one of our one of
our Facebook fans pointed out, this is a very head
oronormative question. Yeah, you know, it's a question of males
and females um and whether sex will enter into it.
(04:22):
And of course no one really stops to think about whether, um,
you know, to homosexuals could be friends without sex centering
into it. It's just society is baffled by the fact
that a man and a woman can be in the
same room and not take each other's clothes off right,
And I think that for today's generation, for our generation, Molly,
it might not be this question might not be so
(04:44):
baffling as it used to be because today it's way
more culturally accepted for a single guy and a single girl,
or married or in relationships what have you, to hang
out in a friendly way. There doesn't have to be
some kind of subtext. Because back in the day, the
workplace was almost completely segregated. Men would go out to work,
(05:05):
women would stay in the home, and the only times
that the two would really interact was, uh, you know,
if a man would come to court a woman or
you know, if they were married. There was really the
two spheres were pretty separate. But now work places are
far less gender segregated than they used to be. You know,
we have just thinking of random things. We have, you know,
(05:28):
intramural teams that we might play on. We have trivia
leagues that we go out and play on. I mean
it's just it's a lot more common for guys and
girls to hang out together period. But you know, it's
interesting because some of the articles were reading show how, uh,
your friendships kind of develop over life, and they've done
a lot of observational studies on toddlers and you know,
(05:50):
little kids on a playground, they tend to to stick
with their own kind. The girls will all go off
and play together, the boys will all go off and
play together, and it's not really until puberty hits that
the two meet, because a you've got all those hormones
and you want to see what other sex is all about,
and you probably are starting to, you know, want a
(06:10):
date a few of them. But it's also just a
time you're in middle school. You're not all just playing
on the playground. You know, there's activities, there's all this stuff.
It's just more mingling. And this is really when a
lot of cross sex friendships start. Yeah, and then once
you kind of move into adult life, a lot of
times studies will show that those cross sex friendships will
(06:30):
start to dissolve a little bit um once people start
really pairing off, getting married, having children. Because I think
it is still kind of taboo for a married person
to have cross sex friendships. I know, kind of a
couple of years ago. It's sort of an old, um
old trend now, but there was, uh, there were all
(06:51):
these stories in the news about these trend stories about
you know, the office boyfriend, the office girlfriend or husband
or wife, whatever it may be. Because nowadays, we tend
to spend more time with people in our office than
quality time with our significant others. And that idea and
all of these stories and the media's were created, this
(07:12):
idea of the cross sex friend, especially adult friend, as
a threat to your relationship. That's right, and I was um.
One of our sources was CBS early show piece that
was an interview with the editor of Cosmopolitan magazine, uh,
favorite of many young women out there. And what started
out is this piece about whether platonic friendship could exist
(07:33):
totally took a one eight in the middle of the
story and was all about how as a spouse you
could protect your husband from this predator friend he must have, like,
you know, all these things you have to tell him
not to talk about with with his friend, and all
the ways to make sure he's not having an affair.
And it all just goes back to this idea that
(07:53):
you know, as soon as a male and a female
or friend sort thinking about having sex with each other. Well, yeah,
because she she toss us out a statistic that supposedly
of women under a underestimate how often men are attracted
to them. This applies to male friends, not just a
guy that you pass on the street. And she's saying,
you know, they don't have to be necessarily a guy's
(08:13):
physical type, like men basically want to have sex with everyone,
So women watch out. You know, if he's talking about
some cool girl in the office, you better, you better
put your guard up and find out what's going on.
It was very alarmous, and I think that this came
out around the time that we had all these stories,
you know, kind of obnoxious stories about the office boyfriend, girlfriend,
(08:35):
what have you. Um. But emotional infidelity is a really
big threat to some people. But it's just the question
of can a spouse not have any friends at all?
Like it's just it's to me, it's so mind boggling
that you couldn't except that someone could have a connection
with another person that's not sexual and not a threat
(08:56):
to your relationship. Well, in this this early show piece
that we're talking king about was also completely one sided
because she basically elaborated on how women need to be
aware that their husband might be emotionally cheating on them
with a woman in the office, but not to point
out that, hey, these women might be in the office
and have guy friends too, or outside the office. I mean,
(09:18):
all of our you know, cross sex friendships, of course,
don't have to revolve around our work. And that's kind
of the tack that men's health the I would say,
sort of the brother publication to Cosmo are two illustrious sources.
Um that we're starting off with here. Um, they kind
of took a broader approach talking about how women can
do the same thing. You know, it can be a
(09:40):
testy line. Um, yeah, like a guy doesn't want some
other guy knowing how things went in the bedroom, how
much money he makes. I mean, it was more like
the mail in the situation is going to see this
other male as a potential threat as well, but not
necessarily in a sexual way, just as just you know,
in a general male competition and way. So I think
(10:01):
starting with these two very sort of stereotypical sources shows
you how the conversation is framed and if you've ever
you know, had a really close cross sex friend and
had you know, a girlfriend, come up an elbow U
and be like, oh man, you guys are guys are
in love, aren't you? Then? You know, do you understand
that the main thing you're always going to come up
against in these types of relationships is the sex? So
(10:23):
let's just talk about the sex. So I think this
might be a good time to chat about a column
that we read on Salon by Mary Elizabeth Williams where
she is extolling the virtues of having guy friends, and
she makes a lot of great points about how kind
of guy friends can fill in certain gaps that girlfriends can't.
(10:44):
You know, they can sort of have your back in
a different way that women can. They can take your
mind off of things a little bit better than maybe
your girlfriends can, because you might not be as prone
to rehash all the gory details about whatever crisis is
going on. And she, you know, she makes this point
for instance, this, and here's a quote she says, some
(11:05):
of the deepest, sweetest, most enduring friendships of my life
have been with males. Then I went to college with me,
I've toiled and crappy jobs with men who stuck around
long after I lost touch with the ex girlfriends who
introduced us Guys who bartend, guys who play in bands,
Guys with black belts, guys who make stuff with metal
and soldering irons, awesome fracking dudes. And that's a lot
of great. She's got a lot of guy friends, you know.
(11:28):
And and she's right, you know, sometimes girl friends can
fade away, and uh, and you have these awesome platonic
guys who can stick by your socks, but they can
need Yeah, they can kick somebody's. But but then all
of a sudden, Mary Elizabeth takes us for a quick
U turn and says, I mean, of course sex happens
(11:49):
with all of these bartenders and black belts and men
in bands. But if you're you know, let's be adult
about this, you can salvage your relationship and keep the
friendship going. Yeah, she makes it sound like sex is
an inevitable like rest stop on the way to friendship.
And I think, you know, let's be honest. Yes, sex
between guy and girlfriends, cross sex friends, sex between cross
(12:12):
sex friends can cannon does happen, um, but I don't
think it always happens. And let me talk from experience,
supposed speak from experience. It does not always happen, doesn't
always happen, and it doesn't have to and I think
that you should be aware of that. While yes, it
would be wonderful if we could stay with total confidence
that we can go out and have sex with our
(12:35):
best guy friend and wake up the next morning, high five,
leave and then you know, meet up for a beer
later and it's totally fine. Molly, that's not the case,
you know, I mean, unless I'm living in some like
weird dreamland. I you know, I think that that's sort
of the best case scenario that Mary Elizabeth Williams is
living out. But let's get away from just anecdotal evidence,
(12:59):
because it's not the certily a bad thing that you know,
men and women have sex sometimes. But I think that
it does more power to marry Lizabeth Williams. Absolutely, but
I think it does add a different dimension to the relationship.
And I don't like perpetuating this idea that it's once
again going back to that notion that you're talking about, Molly,
that's so frustrating that you know, a heater sexual man
and woman walk into a room and if they sit
(13:21):
down and have a conversation together. Of course, it's got
to be leading to one place, and that is the bedroom.
I mean, how many men have you talked to you
that you haven't slept with a lot. I mean, that's
just a joke, Kristen. But I do think that Mary
Liz with Williams has a good point and that it's
a big world. You've got to be friends with a
lot of people. It's best if you don't close yourself
off from people who can give you potentially wonderful relationships.
(13:43):
But you know, so far we've gone with um, the
Cosmo anecdotes, the Men's Health anecdotes, Salon, and a lot
anecdotes are anecdotes. I'm ready. I'm ready for some statistics. Yes,
me too. Let's get some science behind this if we can.
So we're heading over to an our call on Psychology Today,
and Psychology Today actually just had reams of information on this.
(14:06):
The writer has had a lot, a lot of opinions
about whether or not men and women can be friends.
So we came across one article on Psychology Today that
really lays out from an expert point of view, this
the truths and the myths and the consequences of cross
sex friendships. And since we've been talking a lot about
(14:27):
this sex factor, because I think that's really what what
it all boils down to, is whether or not um
sex will ruin the whole thing. So Kathy Working is
from Eastern Kentucky University and she wrote the book We're
Just Good Friends. It explores this whole concept and one
of the truths that she points out, and the Psychology
Today article is that quote it's not all about sex,
(14:49):
and she says, in reality, sex isn't always on the agenda.
That could be due to sexual orientation, lack of physical attraction,
or involvement in another romantic relationship. And even she points
out that even if friends are attracted to each other,
I mean, it's all a matter of choice as to
whether or not you take that relationship to the next level.
And she says, even after years of considering someone as
(15:09):
a friend, it often becomes difficult to see across sex
pal as a romantic possibility. And I say, i'd I'd
agree with Working. And the Psychology Day article points out,
you know that that this sex thing is largely societal,
that we don't have really good role models of how
a man and a woman can interact in a friendship
that isn't sexual because what we see our heteronormative ideals
(15:33):
of menoum the game together in romantic comedies over and
over and over again. Well, and sociologists have pointed out that,
I mean, this is a holdover from what I was
talking about earlier, where uh, with traditional gender roles, with
the you know, men out and men out in the
workplace and the women at home, they're just really hasn't
been opportunity, like non romantic opportunities for men and women
(15:54):
to be just hanging out together as pals. It just
doesn't seem like, you know, some thing that people do,
So why go to all this trouble psychology A date
address us out a little bit with a few of
the benefits of across sex friendship. And it's gonna sound
really silly when I say, because it's so obvious, but
it's just, you know, men and women actually have to
(16:15):
learn about each other to get along in society and
culture and the workplace. And you know, if a guy
has a gal pal, he will you know this again,
it's gonna sound so silly, but he'll think, oh, it's
okay to promote women because so and so it is
really smart she's my friend. I mean, they are saying
that by putting ourselves into this voluntary gender segregation that
(16:39):
we do, and that you know, guys are all on
one side the gym and the girls are all on
the other side of the gym. If they never cross
over and talk to each other, then we'll never know
what the other side is like. Yeah, this, uh, this
is a good segue to this study the you and
I found in the European Sociological Review about sex, sex
segregation and friendship networks, and the author points out that
(17:02):
the absence of cross sex friends may foster in group
feelings and help create gender stereotypes and traditional sexual attitudes.
Because you went back and looked at sort of predictors
for people who do have more cross sex friendships, and
it all has to do with attitudes and exposure. For instance,
people who have opposite sex siblings are far more likely
(17:24):
to make opposite sex friends as well. UM. Women and
who are in the workplace just because they're gonna be
around men more often, Um, I have a tendency to
have more male friendships. Um. And this on the flip
side of that, people who tend to have hold more
traditional attitudes about different the genders and gender stereotypes and
(17:46):
things like that, are less likely to have cross sex friendships.
They usually stick you know, with their guy friends or
with their girl friends, whatever the case may be. And
so researchers do worry that if you, if you do
have a cross that friendship with one of these people
who doesn't have these very um liberal ideas about gender roles,
then you might take a traditional gender role within the relationship,
(18:09):
almost being sort of like the submissive friend. Um. It's
not an equal footing. And when we tend to think
of friendships, its places where you can be equally an
equal exchange of ideas. Um. So it's just something to
be aware of. Well. And we also like to think
of friendships as being mutually beneficial, you know, like think
of your best friend like they're the person that you
(18:30):
can call when you're in a crisis and be there
for you. And on the flip side of that, you
give it back to them in return by answering the
phone at three am when when they're having a crisis. Um,
just for an example. But um. One thing that these
these studies on cross sex friendships has found is that
there is a different type of benefit that men and
(18:51):
women get from cross sex friendships. And it sounds a
little reductionist when when you say it out loud, but
I think if we are very honest with ourselves in
thinking about our friendships, UM, there is a point to it.
And this is going back to that study in the
European Sociological Review and um he points out that UM,
(19:12):
women report that opposite sex friendships provide less intimacy, less acceptance,
less nurturance, and less emotional support than same sex friendships. However,
men report that opposite sex friendships i e. Friendships with
women provide the same amount of intimacy, even somewhat more
intimacy and emotional support than same sex friends. Therefore, he
(19:33):
says that both men and women rely more on women
for the fulfillment of their emotional needs via friendships. Yeah,
you've heard of the universal blood type. Apparently women are
the universal friend But at the same time, I don't
think that that says that, you know, women are more
women's friendships are more important, you know, because I think
that it is just as valuable even if we might
(19:54):
not be feeling some kind of uh deep emotional intimacy
from hanging out and having some beers with our our
guy bff. Um, I think that there's still so much
value to that and why, Like I said at the
beginning of the podcast, I really hope that the answer
to this question of whether men and women can be
(20:14):
friends is yes, because we need each other, you know.
And also, mollly, I think this is a good point
time to point out that throughout this whole conversation we've
been operating under the assumption that these are heterosexual guys
and girls. We haven't even touched on the you know,
gay man, straight man, straight girl, gay guy, you know,
(20:34):
all of the different um combinations now because like you said,
one of our Facebook fans said, hey, guys, isn't this
an insanely heteronormative question to ask? And I mean, yes,
it is the outside if we're just talking about the
factor of whether or not sex will come into play.
But I do think that no matter what, like cross
(20:55):
sex friendships just gender wise not sexual orientation. UM, it's
still is a valuable question to ask because I think
that when you have cross sex friendships, they are different
from same sex friendships. So now real briefly, christ and
you just mentioned this combination let's talk about a common
cross sex friendship, especially if you watch a lot of
television movies, because this kind of relationship is all over them.
(21:18):
The straight woman with the gay guy, the quote unquote
gay boyfriend, the gay boyfriend, the will to your grace, Yes,
the Stanford to your Carrie. I wanted to do three
of them, but I blanked. So, so you know this
this caricature, it's a it's a you know, a lady
(21:39):
about town. She usually loves shopping and eating. She's fun,
she's witty, she usually doesn't have a boyfriend because she's
so zany and anxious. But her her gay boyfriend is
there to go shopping with her and provide her emotional
support and um look fabulous with their when when the
time calls for it, And there is so much back
(22:00):
clash and uh, the pieces I was able to find
against this this idea, because it's become such a caricature
that to think that, you know, the only non threatening
man in a woman's life is going to be this
very effeminate gay man. Well, you made an interesting point
too when we were talking earlier, and not to always
come back to sex in the city, but I think
(22:21):
that it is a prime example and where all this
stuff kind of popped ups are popping up in popular culture.
Um was that you had. It's about this tight enknit
group of girlfriends who don't let any straight men into
their life unless they're dating prospects. And the only other
men that you see on the show outside of that
are Charlotte and Carey's quote unquote gay boyfriends, Stanford and Anthony,
(22:44):
and other than that, that's it. You know, men are
reduced to either non threatening shopping buddies or um romantic interests,
and I don't and I think that that's um kind
of doing a disservice to the potential of male friendships.
I almost feel like we're a very special episode of
(23:04):
Sesame Street Christian because the message here, I mean, it's
it's such a silame message when you say it out loud,
but it's your you really do have just to take
away all your perceptions of these people away and just
be friends. And where it all goes back to big Bird.
And I think one of the reasons why maybe um,
this quote unquote gay boyfriend uh pop culture trend, if
(23:27):
you will, has come under a lot of fire, especially
from the gay community, is that it's not always a
mutually beneficial relationship. It seems like these men a lot
of times are being treated more as an accessory of
fun accessory than um actual people. UM. And I say
that in reference to Thomas Rogers's Peace and salon titled Ladies,
(23:47):
I'm Not Your Gay Boyfriend, and I think he brings
up a good point talking about how before um, homosexuality
was more accepted, more common in today's culture, he says
it was mutually fulfilling relations ship between you know, a
gay guy and a straight girl. He said, men got
the appearance of heterosexual legitimacy and intimacy free of sexual tension,
and women got a touch of glamour and performance and exoticism.
(24:11):
But he says that now um, friendships between gay men
and straight men are no longer as taboo as they
once were. And you know, for him personally that he's
just as willing to mix with uh, you know, straight
male friends as straight girlfriends. Big bird, big bird, big
baron action. Yeah, well, guys, there's so much more to
(24:31):
talk about in regards to friendship. Of course, we only
have time to scratch the surface today on male female friendships,
and so we would love to know your thoughts on
this topic. The email address is mom Stuff at has
stuff works dot com. And I just want to point
out that all the sources we use for our podcasts
are now being put up on our weekly blog roundup. Yes,
(24:52):
so uh real quick, let's get into some listener mail. Okay,
I have one here from Alisa who writes regarding the
Male Facial Hair podcast. I thought a fundraising campaign that
was held recently here in Iceland might be of interest
to you. They call it Mantu Mars, which means Mustache March,
(25:13):
using mustaches as a way to raise awareness and funds
for the types of cancer that afflict men. Guys grew
mustaches during the month of March and then posted their
efforts on a website where donations could be given based
on how much people like their style. The competition could
be entered individually or by company, and people really got
into it. Companies added mustaches to their logos, made pun
versions of their names and included the word mustache, and
(25:34):
did elaborate photo shoots together. Politicians started sporting mustaches, people
took pictures of their kids wearing stick on mustaches, and
the whole country generally started looking more like Eastern Europe,
where they seem to like mustaches a lot more than
Icelanders do. And I know that those sort of competitions
are very popular all over the world, so says Lisa.
I love got one here from ed also about facial hair,
(25:55):
and he shared a pretty sweet story with us. He said,
when I first met my wife, if I had a
full red goatee, I shaved it off while we were dating,
but grew a full beard while living in Ireland after graduation.
Flying home from Ireland to propose to her, I stopped
at my dad's house, who told me, no woman will
agree to marry a man with a beard. I shaved
just in case, and she said yes. For our engagement photos,
(26:16):
I had a full handlebar mustache, and this is a
photo she keeps at her bedside all these twenty years.
And that's the thank you, ed Um. And then I've
got one to wrap things up from George. This is
also about facial hair, and he said, I'm the U. S.
Marine Corps and being clean cut and shaved is absolutely required.
I have to shave twice a day. Sometimes mustaches are allowed,
(26:37):
however they are rare. The reason for all of this
is for uniformity and cleanliness. Uniformity is very important, of
course in the military, and having a beard to keep
neat and clean would get cumbersome, especially in combat. And
having short hair is low maintenance. As much as I
disagree with the idea of it being feminine to shave
much like a woman would put on makeup, I noticed
an interesting occurrence with my girlfriend. I let my facial
(26:59):
hair grow to the point where I had some noticeable stubble,
and my girlfriend found that very, very attractive. So I
would like to just reinforce that point as being true
in my case. So thank you George, and thanks to
everyone who has written in and again. Our email is
moms stuff at how stuff works dot com. You should
follow us on Twitter and become fans of us on Facebook.
(27:20):
We would love to see you on there, see you're
shining faces. And last week not least head over to
our blog because like Molly said, you can find all
of our sources and cold posts throughout the week. It's
how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works,
(27:41):
check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot
com home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two
thousand twelve Camray it's ready. Are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From house Stop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen. I'm Molly Today. Our question, Molly
(00:21):
comes from a movie that a lot of people have seen,
and I kind of wanted to not have to talk
about this movie because this movie comes up and almost
every article that we ran across when we were researching
this specific question, which is ken men and women really
be friends? And by now all of our wise listeners
(00:42):
probably know that I'm talking about the movie when Harry
met Sally starring Billy Crystal and Meg Ry and my
two favorite actors in Hollywood. Right, they're such your favorite thing,
you didn't even want to talk about the movie they
made together, right or else? Then? I just want to
do a podcast. Has thought how great Billy Crystal is?
He is a zany, fun guy. Kristen totally underrated. For
(01:05):
getting me off track, I'm trying to roundtrack. I'm intentionally
trying to distract you for some reason because you don't
want to talk about this question and it's impact in
the movie. Right, I mean, the whole movie revolves around
these two friends, Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan Harry Sally.
Harry and Sally. First, I was gonna say, I don't
remember their names in the movie. Um it's a little
(01:26):
early in the morning here in Atlanta. Uh, but yeah,
it just revolves around Harry and Sally's friendship that eventually
evolves into a romance. Spoiler alert, well a little late
for spoiler alert came out in the nineteenaightes, I think
we're safe. Well, you know, some people, some younger listeners,
might not have seen it. But early in the movie,
(01:48):
Harry says that men and women can never be friends
because at one point someone one or the other will
want to take it romantic. They'll want to have sex.
They will want to have sex. I was trying to
be a little more euphemistic about it, Molly. No, I mean,
I think I don't even think Billy Crystal would want
the romance. He just said, at one point, they're going
to have sex. They're going to have sex. Their hormones
will get the better of them. It's impossible to avoid.
(02:10):
And thus men and women cannot be friends. And you know,
if you believe the outcome of the movie, they can't
because they end up married and in love. And you know,
Kristen's given this a spoiler alert, but the two do
get together and they get married in their in love
and I think that this movie may have ruined, you know,
a generation of people who might have had a crushed
(02:32):
on one of their male friends, was like, eventually, it's
gonna be like when Harry met Sally, He's gonna be
my Harry. Eventually, it's all gonna work out. It's okay
that I'm single now because I got my Harry. But
I think that really does a disservice to the men
and women who can be friends without sex entering the picture.
And so we're going to talk today about the possibilities,
the struggles, the benefits, all the great things that come
(02:57):
from as the researchers call them, cross ex friendships, cross
sex friendships. Yes, and I'm gonna stay right now Molly
and answered this question. I would like to hope. But yes, indeed,
men and women can be friends, because what's wrong with that?
You know, I mean, guy friends are great. Yeah, I
think that, you know, they can bring something different to
(03:18):
a friendship than maybe your female friends can. I think
you can get something from every friendship, regardless of the
gender of the person who is your friend. Every friendship
is different. It's like a snowflake. Um. But a lot
of people have done writing on the fact that when
two females get together and talk, they're talking about their
emotions and their boy troubles and it's just on and on,
(03:40):
and it's repetitive. It's you know, you're always going over
all your drama, whereas if you're hanging out with a
guy friend, you're more likely to be you know, watching
a movie, looking up crazy things online, or if you're talking,
it might just be about more general subjects like sports
or TV programs you both like, or funny jokes. I mean,
(04:00):
there is some gossip. I think that definitely goes on
Franks gossip, and of course you will discuss what's going
on in your life, so relationships might be a part
of that. UM. And we want to go ahead and
say that, you know, as one of our one of
our Facebook fans pointed out, this is a very head
oronormative question. Yeah, you know, it's a question of males
and females um and whether sex will enter into it.
(04:22):
And of course no one really stops to think about whether, um,
you know, to homosexuals could be friends without sex centering
into it. It's just society is baffled by the fact
that a man and a woman can be in the
same room and not take each other's clothes off right,
And I think that for today's generation, for our generation, Molly,
it might not be this question might not be so
(04:44):
baffling as it used to be because today it's way
more culturally accepted for a single guy and a single girl,
or married or in relationships what have you, to hang
out in a friendly way. There doesn't have to be
some kind of subtext. Because back in the day, the
workplace was almost completely segregated. Men would go out to work,
(05:05):
women would stay in the home, and the only times
that the two would really interact was, uh, you know,
if a man would come to court a woman or
you know, if they were married. There was really the
two spheres were pretty separate. But now work places are
far less gender segregated than they used to be. You know,
we have just thinking of random things. We have, you know,
(05:28):
intramural teams that we might play on. We have trivia
leagues that we go out and play on. I mean
it's just it's a lot more common for guys and
girls to hang out together period. But you know, it's
interesting because some of the articles were reading show how, uh,
your friendships kind of develop over life, and they've done
a lot of observational studies on toddlers and you know,
(05:50):
little kids on a playground, they tend to to stick
with their own kind. The girls will all go off
and play together, the boys will all go off and
play together, and it's not really until puberty hits that
the two meet, because a you've got all those hormones
and you want to see what other sex is all about,
and you probably are starting to, you know, want a
(06:10):
date a few of them. But it's also just a
time you're in middle school. You're not all just playing
on the playground. You know, there's activities, there's all this stuff.
It's just more mingling. And this is really when a
lot of cross sex friendships start. Yeah, and then once
you kind of move into adult life, a lot of
times studies will show that those cross sex friendships will
(06:30):
start to dissolve a little bit um once people start
really pairing off, getting married, having children. Because I think
it is still kind of taboo for a married person
to have cross sex friendships. I know, kind of a
couple of years ago. It's sort of an old, um
old trend now, but there was, uh, there were all
(06:51):
these stories in the news about these trend stories about
you know, the office boyfriend, the office girlfriend or husband
or wife, whatever it may be. Because nowadays, we tend
to spend more time with people in our office than
quality time with our significant others. And that idea and
all of these stories and the media's were created, this
(07:12):
idea of the cross sex friend, especially adult friend, as
a threat to your relationship. That's right, and I was um.
One of our sources was CBS early show piece that
was an interview with the editor of Cosmopolitan magazine, uh,
favorite of many young women out there. And what started
out is this piece about whether platonic friendship could exist
(07:33):
totally took a one eight in the middle of the
story and was all about how as a spouse you
could protect your husband from this predator friend he must have, like,
you know, all these things you have to tell him
not to talk about with with his friend, and all
the ways to make sure he's not having an affair.
And it all just goes back to this idea that
(07:53):
you know, as soon as a male and a female
or friend sort thinking about having sex with each other. Well, yeah,
because she she toss us out a statistic that supposedly
of women under a underestimate how often men are attracted
to them. This applies to male friends, not just a
guy that you pass on the street. And she's saying,
you know, they don't have to be necessarily a guy's
(08:13):
physical type, like men basically want to have sex with everyone,
So women watch out. You know, if he's talking about
some cool girl in the office, you better, you better
put your guard up and find out what's going on.
It was very alarmous, and I think that this came
out around the time that we had all these stories,
you know, kind of obnoxious stories about the office boyfriend, girlfriend,
(08:35):
what have you. Um. But emotional infidelity is a really
big threat to some people. But it's just the question
of can a spouse not have any friends at all?
Like it's just it's to me, it's so mind boggling
that you couldn't except that someone could have a connection
with another person that's not sexual and not a threat
(08:56):
to your relationship. Well, in this this early show piece
that we're talking king about was also completely one sided
because she basically elaborated on how women need to be
aware that their husband might be emotionally cheating on them
with a woman in the office, but not to point
out that, hey, these women might be in the office
and have guy friends too, or outside the office. I mean,
(09:18):
all of our you know, cross sex friendships, of course,
don't have to revolve around our work. And that's kind
of the tack that men's health the I would say,
sort of the brother publication to Cosmo are two illustrious sources.
Um that we're starting off with here. Um, they kind
of took a broader approach talking about how women can
do the same thing. You know, it can be a
(09:40):
testy line. Um, yeah, like a guy doesn't want some
other guy knowing how things went in the bedroom, how
much money he makes. I mean, it was more like
the mail in the situation is going to see this
other male as a potential threat as well, but not
necessarily in a sexual way, just as just you know,
in a general male competition and way. So I think
(10:01):
starting with these two very sort of stereotypical sources shows
you how the conversation is framed and if you've ever
you know, had a really close cross sex friend and
had you know, a girlfriend, come up an elbow U
and be like, oh man, you guys are guys are
in love, aren't you? Then? You know, do you understand
that the main thing you're always going to come up
against in these types of relationships is the sex? So
(10:23):
let's just talk about the sex. So I think this
might be a good time to chat about a column
that we read on Salon by Mary Elizabeth Williams where
she is extolling the virtues of having guy friends, and
she makes a lot of great points about how kind
of guy friends can fill in certain gaps that girlfriends can't.
(10:44):
You know, they can sort of have your back in
a different way that women can. They can take your
mind off of things a little bit better than maybe
your girlfriends can, because you might not be as prone
to rehash all the gory details about whatever crisis is
going on. And she, you know, she makes this point
for instance, this, and here's a quote she says, some
(11:05):
of the deepest, sweetest, most enduring friendships of my life
have been with males. Then I went to college with me,
I've toiled and crappy jobs with men who stuck around
long after I lost touch with the ex girlfriends who
introduced us Guys who bartend, guys who play in bands,
Guys with black belts, guys who make stuff with metal
and soldering irons, awesome fracking dudes. And that's a lot
of great. She's got a lot of guy friends, you know.
(11:28):
And and she's right, you know, sometimes girl friends can
fade away, and uh, and you have these awesome platonic
guys who can stick by your socks, but they can
need Yeah, they can kick somebody's. But but then all
of a sudden, Mary Elizabeth takes us for a quick
U turn and says, I mean, of course sex happens
(11:49):
with all of these bartenders and black belts and men
in bands. But if you're you know, let's be adult
about this, you can salvage your relationship and keep the
friendship going. Yeah, she makes it sound like sex is
an inevitable like rest stop on the way to friendship.
And I think, you know, let's be honest. Yes, sex
between guy and girlfriends, cross sex friends, sex between cross
(12:12):
sex friends can cannon does happen, um, but I don't
think it always happens. And let me talk from experience,
supposed speak from experience. It does not always happen, doesn't
always happen, and it doesn't have to and I think
that you should be aware of that. While yes, it
would be wonderful if we could stay with total confidence
that we can go out and have sex with our
(12:35):
best guy friend and wake up the next morning, high five,
leave and then you know, meet up for a beer
later and it's totally fine. Molly, that's not the case,
you know, I mean, unless I'm living in some like
weird dreamland. I you know, I think that that's sort
of the best case scenario that Mary Elizabeth Williams is
living out. But let's get away from just anecdotal evidence,
(12:59):
because it's not the certily a bad thing that you know,
men and women have sex sometimes. But I think that
it does more power to marry Lizabeth Williams. Absolutely, but
I think it does add a different dimension to the relationship.
And I don't like perpetuating this idea that it's once
again going back to that notion that you're talking about, Molly,
that's so frustrating that you know, a heater sexual man
and woman walk into a room and if they sit
(13:21):
down and have a conversation together. Of course, it's got
to be leading to one place, and that is the bedroom.
I mean, how many men have you talked to you
that you haven't slept with a lot. I mean, that's
just a joke, Kristen. But I do think that Mary
Liz with Williams has a good point and that it's
a big world. You've got to be friends with a
lot of people. It's best if you don't close yourself
off from people who can give you potentially wonderful relationships.
(13:43):
But you know, so far we've gone with um, the
Cosmo anecdotes, the Men's Health anecdotes, Salon, and a lot
anecdotes are anecdotes. I'm ready. I'm ready for some statistics. Yes,
me too. Let's get some science behind this if we can.
So we're heading over to an our call on Psychology Today,
and Psychology Today actually just had reams of information on this.
(14:06):
The writer has had a lot, a lot of opinions
about whether or not men and women can be friends.
So we came across one article on Psychology Today that
really lays out from an expert point of view, this
the truths and the myths and the consequences of cross
sex friendships. And since we've been talking a lot about
(14:27):
this sex factor, because I think that's really what what
it all boils down to, is whether or not um
sex will ruin the whole thing. So Kathy Working is
from Eastern Kentucky University and she wrote the book We're
Just Good Friends. It explores this whole concept and one
of the truths that she points out, and the Psychology
Today article is that quote it's not all about sex,
(14:49):
and she says, in reality, sex isn't always on the agenda.
That could be due to sexual orientation, lack of physical attraction,
or involvement in another romantic relationship. And even she points
out that even if friends are attracted to each other,
I mean, it's all a matter of choice as to
whether or not you take that relationship to the next level.
And she says, even after years of considering someone as
(15:09):
a friend, it often becomes difficult to see across sex
pal as a romantic possibility. And I say, i'd I'd
agree with Working. And the Psychology Day article points out,
you know that that this sex thing is largely societal,
that we don't have really good role models of how
a man and a woman can interact in a friendship
that isn't sexual because what we see our heteronormative ideals
(15:33):
of menoum the game together in romantic comedies over and
over and over again. Well, and sociologists have pointed out that,
I mean, this is a holdover from what I was
talking about earlier, where uh, with traditional gender roles, with
the you know, men out and men out in the
workplace and the women at home, they're just really hasn't
been opportunity, like non romantic opportunities for men and women
(15:54):
to be just hanging out together as pals. It just
doesn't seem like, you know, some thing that people do,
So why go to all this trouble psychology A date
address us out a little bit with a few of
the benefits of across sex friendship. And it's gonna sound
really silly when I say, because it's so obvious, but
it's just, you know, men and women actually have to
(16:15):
learn about each other to get along in society and
culture and the workplace. And you know, if a guy
has a gal pal, he will you know this again,
it's gonna sound so silly, but he'll think, oh, it's
okay to promote women because so and so it is
really smart she's my friend. I mean, they are saying
that by putting ourselves into this voluntary gender segregation that
(16:39):
we do, and that you know, guys are all on
one side the gym and the girls are all on
the other side of the gym. If they never cross
over and talk to each other, then we'll never know
what the other side is like. Yeah, this, uh, this
is a good segue to this study the you and
I found in the European Sociological Review about sex, sex
segregation and friendship networks, and the author points out that
(17:02):
the absence of cross sex friends may foster in group
feelings and help create gender stereotypes and traditional sexual attitudes.
Because you went back and looked at sort of predictors
for people who do have more cross sex friendships, and
it all has to do with attitudes and exposure. For instance,
people who have opposite sex siblings are far more likely
(17:24):
to make opposite sex friends as well. UM. Women and
who are in the workplace just because they're gonna be
around men more often, Um, I have a tendency to
have more male friendships. Um. And this on the flip
side of that, people who tend to have hold more
traditional attitudes about different the genders and gender stereotypes and
(17:46):
things like that, are less likely to have cross sex friendships.
They usually stick you know, with their guy friends or
with their girl friends, whatever the case may be. And
so researchers do worry that if you, if you do
have a cross that friendship with one of these people
who doesn't have these very um liberal ideas about gender roles,
then you might take a traditional gender role within the relationship,
(18:09):
almost being sort of like the submissive friend. Um. It's
not an equal footing. And when we tend to think
of friendships, its places where you can be equally an
equal exchange of ideas. Um. So it's just something to
be aware of. Well. And we also like to think
of friendships as being mutually beneficial, you know, like think
of your best friend like they're the person that you
(18:30):
can call when you're in a crisis and be there
for you. And on the flip side of that, you
give it back to them in return by answering the
phone at three am when when they're having a crisis. Um,
just for an example. But um. One thing that these
these studies on cross sex friendships has found is that
there is a different type of benefit that men and
(18:51):
women get from cross sex friendships. And it sounds a
little reductionist when when you say it out loud, but
I think if we are very honest with ourselves in
thinking about our friendships, UM, there is a point to it.
And this is going back to that study in the
European Sociological Review and um he points out that UM,
(19:12):
women report that opposite sex friendships provide less intimacy, less acceptance,
less nurturance, and less emotional support than same sex friendships. However,
men report that opposite sex friendships i e. Friendships with
women provide the same amount of intimacy, even somewhat more
intimacy and emotional support than same sex friends. Therefore, he
(19:33):
says that both men and women rely more on women
for the fulfillment of their emotional needs via friendships. Yeah,
you've heard of the universal blood type. Apparently women are
the universal friend But at the same time, I don't
think that that says that, you know, women are more
women's friendships are more important, you know, because I think
that it is just as valuable even if we might
(19:54):
not be feeling some kind of uh deep emotional intimacy
from hanging out and having some beers with our our
guy bff. Um, I think that there's still so much
value to that and why, Like I said at the
beginning of the podcast, I really hope that the answer
to this question of whether men and women can be
(20:14):
friends is yes, because we need each other, you know.
And also, mollly, I think this is a good point
time to point out that throughout this whole conversation we've
been operating under the assumption that these are heterosexual guys
and girls. We haven't even touched on the you know,
gay man, straight man, straight girl, gay guy, you know,
(20:34):
all of the different um combinations now because like you said,
one of our Facebook fans said, hey, guys, isn't this
an insanely heteronormative question to ask? And I mean, yes,
it is the outside if we're just talking about the
factor of whether or not sex will come into play.
But I do think that no matter what, like cross
(20:55):
sex friendships just gender wise not sexual orientation. UM, it's
still is a valuable question to ask because I think
that when you have cross sex friendships, they are different
from same sex friendships. So now real briefly, christ and
you just mentioned this combination let's talk about a common
cross sex friendship, especially if you watch a lot of
television movies, because this kind of relationship is all over them.
(21:18):
The straight woman with the gay guy, the quote unquote
gay boyfriend, the gay boyfriend, the will to your grace, Yes,
the Stanford to your Carrie. I wanted to do three
of them, but I blanked. So, so you know this
this caricature, it's a it's a you know, a lady
(21:39):
about town. She usually loves shopping and eating. She's fun,
she's witty, she usually doesn't have a boyfriend because she's
so zany and anxious. But her her gay boyfriend is
there to go shopping with her and provide her emotional
support and um look fabulous with their when when the
time calls for it, And there is so much back
(22:00):
clash and uh, the pieces I was able to find
against this this idea, because it's become such a caricature
that to think that, you know, the only non threatening
man in a woman's life is going to be this
very effeminate gay man. Well, you made an interesting point
too when we were talking earlier, and not to always
come back to sex in the city, but I think
(22:21):
that it is a prime example and where all this
stuff kind of popped ups are popping up in popular culture.
Um was that you had. It's about this tight enknit
group of girlfriends who don't let any straight men into
their life unless they're dating prospects. And the only other
men that you see on the show outside of that
are Charlotte and Carey's quote unquote gay boyfriends, Stanford and Anthony,
(22:44):
and other than that, that's it. You know, men are
reduced to either non threatening shopping buddies or um romantic interests,
and I don't and I think that that's um kind
of doing a disservice to the potential of male friendships.
I almost feel like we're a very special episode of
(23:04):
Sesame Street Christian because the message here, I mean, it's
it's such a silame message when you say it out loud,
but it's your you really do have just to take
away all your perceptions of these people away and just
be friends. And where it all goes back to big Bird.
And I think one of the reasons why maybe um,
this quote unquote gay boyfriend uh pop culture trend, if
(23:27):
you will, has come under a lot of fire, especially
from the gay community, is that it's not always a
mutually beneficial relationship. It seems like these men a lot
of times are being treated more as an accessory of
fun accessory than um actual people. UM. And I say
that in reference to Thomas Rogers's Peace and salon titled Ladies,
(23:47):
I'm Not Your Gay Boyfriend, and I think he brings
up a good point talking about how before um, homosexuality
was more accepted, more common in today's culture, he says
it was mutually fulfilling relations ship between you know, a
gay guy and a straight girl. He said, men got
the appearance of heterosexual legitimacy and intimacy free of sexual tension,
and women got a touch of glamour and performance and exoticism.
(24:11):
But he says that now um, friendships between gay men
and straight men are no longer as taboo as they
once were. And you know, for him personally that he's
just as willing to mix with uh, you know, straight
male friends as straight girlfriends. Big bird, big bird, big
baron action. Yeah, well, guys, there's so much more to
(24:31):
talk about in regards to friendship. Of course, we only
have time to scratch the surface today on male female friendships,
and so we would love to know your thoughts on
this topic. The email address is mom Stuff at has
stuff works dot com. And I just want to point
out that all the sources we use for our podcasts
are now being put up on our weekly blog roundup. Yes,
(24:52):
so uh real quick, let's get into some listener mail. Okay,
I have one here from Alisa who writes regarding the
Male Facial Hair podcast. I thought a fundraising campaign that
was held recently here in Iceland might be of interest
to you. They call it Mantu Mars, which means Mustache March,
(25:13):
using mustaches as a way to raise awareness and funds
for the types of cancer that afflict men. Guys grew
mustaches during the month of March and then posted their
efforts on a website where donations could be given based
on how much people like their style. The competition could
be entered individually or by company, and people really got
into it. Companies added mustaches to their logos, made pun
versions of their names and included the word mustache, and
(25:34):
did elaborate photo shoots together. Politicians started sporting mustaches, people
took pictures of their kids wearing stick on mustaches, and
the whole country generally started looking more like Eastern Europe,
where they seem to like mustaches a lot more than
Icelanders do. And I know that those sort of competitions
are very popular all over the world, so says Lisa.
I love got one here from ed also about facial hair,
(25:55):
and he shared a pretty sweet story with us. He said,
when I first met my wife, if I had a
full red goatee, I shaved it off while we were dating,
but grew a full beard while living in Ireland after graduation.
Flying home from Ireland to propose to her, I stopped
at my dad's house, who told me, no woman will
agree to marry a man with a beard. I shaved
just in case, and she said yes. For our engagement photos,
(26:16):
I had a full handlebar mustache, and this is a
photo she keeps at her bedside all these twenty years.
And that's the thank you, ed Um. And then I've
got one to wrap things up from George. This is
also about facial hair, and he said, I'm the U. S.
Marine Corps and being clean cut and shaved is absolutely required.
I have to shave twice a day. Sometimes mustaches are allowed,
(26:37):
however they are rare. The reason for all of this
is for uniformity and cleanliness. Uniformity is very important, of
course in the military, and having a beard to keep
neat and clean would get cumbersome, especially in combat. And
having short hair is low maintenance. As much as I
disagree with the idea of it being feminine to shave
much like a woman would put on makeup, I noticed
an interesting occurrence with my girlfriend. I let my facial
(26:59):
hair grow to the point where I had some noticeable stubble,
and my girlfriend found that very, very attractive. So I
would like to just reinforce that point as being true
in my case. So thank you George, and thanks to
everyone who has written in and again. Our email is
moms stuff at how stuff works dot com. You should
follow us on Twitter and become fans of us on Facebook.
(27:20):
We would love to see you on there, see you're
shining faces. And last week not least head over to
our blog because like Molly said, you can find all
of our sources and cold posts throughout the week. It's
how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works,
(27:41):
check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot
com home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two
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