August 31, 2011 • 24 mins
Child marriage usually occurs in poor, rural communities. The brides are often betrothed to older men, sometimes even before they're born. In this episode, Caroline and Cristen explore the social and economic roots of this practice. Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?
From house Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. So just as
(00:21):
a reminder for listeners out there. UM, a little while
ago in podcast history, Molly and I did an episode
on human trafficking and sex trafficking, and one aspect of
sex trafficking that we didn't get to address that really
needs to be talked about, I think, even more than
(00:42):
it is in the media and elsewhere, is the issue
of child marriage and child brides. Right. Yeah, imagine if
you were eight years old living in Afghanistan or India, UM,
some states, Uh, you don't get to dream about your
wedding day the same way that girls in the West do. Right,
maybe you h A lot of girls in poor rural
(01:04):
societies are betrothed to much older men, some before they're born,
some when they're very young, and a lot are married
off when they're eight, ten, twelve years old. Right, And
a lot of times once a girl the standard for
a girl being marriageable in a lot of these um
communities because it varies by from country to country, and
(01:27):
then also from tribe to tribe, community to community, state
to state. Once the girl has her monarchy, gets her
first period, she is marriageable, and like you said, Caroline,
sometimes they're even betrothed long before that might happen. So
let's take a step back, maybe and and provide a
global outlook on where child marriage is most prominent and
(01:51):
how many girls are being wedded off right. Most of
these marriages of young girls and older men take place
in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia UM. According to UNIEF.
In the Middle East, North Africa and other parts of Asia. UM,
marriage at or shortly after puberty is common. Um. Some
(02:12):
some cultures believe, especially if they're living in a violent
community maybe their civil strife going on, that as soon
as a girl has her period and she can therefore
technically reproduce, then she's just a magnet for trouble. And
by trouble you mean things like having sex or even
being sexually assaulted. Right, um, And just to put some
(02:34):
some numbers around this. According to a two thousand nine
article and the Review in Epstetrics and Gynecology in South Asia,
thirty one million marriages include girls under eighteen. In Sub
Saharan Africa, that number is fourteen million. In Latin America
and the Caribbean it's six point six million. And obviously
in the in the United States, UM, girls under eighteen
(02:55):
UM might end up in a similar kind of situations,
but it is far less common. UM in the number
one country where this is a problem would be Niger
where UM they have the highest rate of child marriage
at seventy six point six percent. And I believe by
(03:16):
by child marriage this means girls under eighteen who are married.
And that's followed by Chad, Bangladesh, Molly, and Guinea. Right. Um. Now,
there is one writer and it was I think it's
of Stetrics and Gynecology, pointed out that there are different
terms that people use for when for when young girls
(03:37):
are married off UM. A lot of people use the
term child bride or early marriage, and she argues that
the writer argues that these are not sufficient terms to
express what's really going on. Her Her point is that
child bride sounds almost like, yeah, we're getting married, and
that's that's just not appropriate. UM. Early marriage doesn't quite
(03:59):
paint the picture either, because I mean, I think it's
an early marriage of someone who's nineteen gets married, So
that doesn't quite indicate what we're talking about today, which
is young children and those the pros and cons of
that kind of terminology reminds me of conversations that will
often come up between uh, female circumcision versus female genital mutilation.
(04:21):
Some say that, you know, in a similar way, female
circumcision seems to sort of soften the actual procedure of
of what's going on that is more like genital mutilation,
which obviously has a much harsher harsher edge. UM. So,
I guess in the in the advocacy world, child marriage
is the preferred term. And just to just to offer
(04:44):
a little bit of insight on a case study on
why this happens in Niger, like I said, that has
the highest rate of child marriage. It really comes out
of a need to follow tradition and really reinforced ties
between communities and protect girls from out of wedlock pregnancy.
Like you brought up, Caroline, once the girl has her period,
(05:07):
she can get pregnant um and that can be a
huge um. If that happens, she'll be ostracized UM. And
it's a way to prevent that. This isn't born out
of you know, hatred for these girls and trying to
subject them to miserable lives of of marriages that aren't
of their choosing, um, But but a lot of very
(05:28):
common threads that that run throughout all of these different situations, right.
And you know you mentioned protecting the girls, sending them
off to get married to protect them. But in that
Obstetric Obstetrics and Gynecology article, the writer points out that
actually the opposite effect happens in that early marriages actually
(05:49):
make it more likely that the young wives will contract
diseases and be victims of sexual violence by their husbands. Um.
Because if you think about it, you know, these girls
are young, they haven't had sexual partners. You know, that's
exactly why some of these men are marrying them. Because
they're young, they're pure, they haven't had other partners, um.
But the men have, and in a lot of cases
(06:09):
they have other wives. So if they have contracted diseases,
they're going to end up giving it to these young girls,
who because of you know, how they are set up biologically,
being so young and not fully developed, they're actually more
prone to contracting these uh, sexually transmitted infections because of
injuries they could sustain during sexual intercourse. Right, just so
(06:32):
you have you an idea, um in, I believe this
is coming from UNICEF in Uganda. The HIV prevalence rate
of married girls and single girls between the ages of
fifteen and nineteen years is eighty nine percent and sixty
six percent, respectively. And that's that's the eighty nine percent
for the married young girls versus sixty six percent for
(06:53):
the single girls, and their rates of contracting HPV and
cervical cancer and developing cervical cancer are much higher than
the general population. But let's let's back up for a
little bit and and talk about a little bit more
about why this happens, because um as listeners probably assume
(07:13):
this is going on in what are called traditional societies,
which unify UNI stuff would define as consisting of extended
families young ages at marriage, spouse is chosen by elders,
absorption of the newlywed into households basically like the young
girl becomes part of her taken away from her family
(07:38):
um and then having as many children right away as
you can. Right, it extends fertility when you start having
babies at you know, twelve well, I don't know, fourteen,
you know, years old, you are going to be having
babies for a long time. But the notion, though, of
your parents picking your partner for you is not all
(08:00):
that uncommon, right, It's not weird to them. But what
is weird is the idea of a woman, you know,
growing up in her family, having a normal adolescence that
what you know, what we consider normal, developing a sense
of identity and choosing her own partner. Right. And if
anyone's ever read a History of Marriage by Stephanie Coon's,
you know that marriage way before the evolution of what
(08:23):
we have today. Um, in terms of a love marriage
where you know, I can you know, fall in love
with whoever I want and put a put a ring
on and make it happen. Uh. Marriage has always been,
since the dawn of the dawn of marriage done, since
we've been doing it. It's always been a tool for
(08:44):
economic security, communal bonding, and paternalistic sexual protection, those three things,
and those are the things that still come up over
and over again. And it's not so much an issue
with parents having a role in selecting who you're going
to marry. That still happens all the time in India,
and it's not necessarily a problem, but when that happens
with thirteen year olds, fourteen year olds being married off
(09:07):
for economic reasons, that's when it. Yeah, a big, a
big aspect of this child marriage is that these women
are girls, I should say, come from really poor rural
families and their their families just consider them a burden,
a financial burden. And so we did talk a little
bit about the protection from violence and sexual violence, but
(09:29):
another big aspect is the financial aspect. Yeah, there was
a story recently on Women's e News about so called
drought rides in Kenya right now, because there's a terrible
drought going on in Kenya and for some families, the
only way that they are able to get any kind
of money or any kind of food in their household
(09:53):
is through dowries for their daughters. So there, you know,
there's been an uptick in these um drought ridden area
is in child marriage just so they can get some
kind of food on the table, right. Yeah, you know,
a groom's family could give money or cattle, horses, you
know what, whatever whatever the bride's family can use to
(10:15):
make money. And Kristen going back to Uganda in the
northern part of the country. UM. Some parents have been
known to marry off their daughters to members of the
militia UH not only to gain maybe honor, maybe a
slightly higher social status, but to actually just gain protection
UM from people other people who might threaten them. UM. Actually,
(10:36):
and according to UNI SEF, child marriage is on the
rise in countries that are experiencing civil strife. These countries
UM that show higher rates of child flavory, flavory and trafficking,
UM that have more children on the streets and high
levels of neglect and abandonment. These are the countries that
are showing a rise in child marriage. Because who's going
(10:57):
to protect my kid? I can't afford to do it.
And that's the point that Stella Schumacher, who is a
Unit SEP child protection specialist in New York made. She says,
often families marry off girls very young because they want
to protect them, not realizing the dangerous that they face.
It requires a change of social norms, and legislation isn't
(11:17):
enough because kind of going back to you know comment
that we made earlier, this isn't um. These families don't
wish doom and gloom on their their daughters. A lot
of times it is culturally culturally ingrained or either force
or economic conditions or civil unrest. If your mother, your grandmother,
your great grandmother, if they all went through it, that's
(11:38):
what they know. You know, maybe it's not their ideal
situation either, but it's the tradition in their culture. Um.
But even if it is has become a generational cycle,
even if it is linked to poverty and civil unrest,
and perhaps parents have you know, these very paternalistic ideas
of you know, protecting their daughter's honor by sort of
(12:03):
sending them off before they even have a chance to
be deflowered. Uh, it is dangerous. It puts these girls
in in such direct harm physically. Um, Premature pregnancy happens
so much more often when you have these underage bride right,
and by premature, I mean we mean these girls should
(12:24):
not be getting pregnant because of the damage it can
do to their body and the damage it can do
to the baby itself. Um, young girls are actually fifteen
times more likely to die during childbirth according to PDS.
They they had a series about child marriage and I
didn't know this, but it's actually, uh, the leading cause
of death worldwide for girls fifteen to nineteen. Yeah, and
(12:47):
even if these young girls survive childbirth, a lot of
times UM they might have irreversible health problems such as fistula,
which causes chronic incontinence and often leads to abandonment and
isolation because they're just ostracized from from their group. Their
husband wants nothing to do with them, society wants something
(13:08):
to do with them. And there are two million girls
living with a fistula, a lot of which is related
to this kind of forceful sex at a very young
age childbirth at a very young age. There have been
um a number of stories about child brides who have
bled to death after their their husbands have had sex
(13:29):
with them for the first time because their their bodies
were so small they can't take it. There was a
National Geographic article that mentioned at the very end a
thirteen year old girl who was taken to the hospital
four days after she was married. UM her basically her
internal organs had suffered major damage because of sexual intercourse
with her husband. And it's also not good if they
(13:51):
do have a child, it's it's not good for UM.
But the odds of the baby surviving birth is not
very good, and mortality for mothers under the age twenty
is about UM sixty higher than it is for the
general population, right, And I mean these women are experiencing
abuse too. They're more likely to experience sexual abuse, UM beating, abandonment,
(14:17):
so I mean not a good situation. Yeah. There was
a pretty intense, uh photo essay from Foreign Policy magazine
that we found online, and one of the photos showed
I think he was a thirty five year old husband
who had tried to kill his fifteen year old wife
ended up killing the grant her grandmother in the process.
(14:40):
But you do hear anecdotally from the you know, the
advocacy workers who are going in and trying to in
the practice of child marriage a lot of you hear
about a lot of times because the girls are separated
from their families and taken away and they might never
see their family again. There's a lot of domestic violence
that goes along with that. And of course if these
(15:01):
girls are married off so young, they're not going to
complete their education, right. It just sort of fosters a
cycle of illiteracy, not only a literacy, but poverty of
course too, because if you don't get an education, how
can you raise your socioeconomic status, get a better job,
or get a job at all. If you are taken
as a child directly from your parents, you know, maybe
you had a little schooling. But if you're taken directly
(15:22):
out of your house, you know, married off to some
older man, when are you going to advance your education.
You don't get the chance to develop your intellect, develop
a sense of self, develop any self confidence. So you
are more likely to be not only subservient, but um
manipulated by your husband. Yeah, and and that's such an
important key in terms of development in a lot of
(15:46):
these countries. Um, Like we've talked about many times during
the podcast, women are the key to, like you said,
ending cycles of poverty and raising up socioeconomic levels. Studies
have shown over over again that when you educate the mothers,
then it passes along to the children. Not to say
the men don't need help but attention as well. But
(16:07):
a lot of times, like if you give, if you
get monetary aid to to the women in the house,
it will they are better stewards of that. Then the
men are similarly with with education. And if you want
to learn more about that, I highly recommend reading Half
the Sky by Nicholas Kristoph and Cheryl Wu Dunne, which
we have mentioned before on the podcast. Well, according to
(16:29):
the International Center for Research on Women, eight or more
years of schooling makes it much less likely that a
girl will marry early. She gets to develop that sense
of intellect, sense of self and have a sort of
a childhood or real childhood. Yeah, and I one thing
that we haven't mentioned yet is that in nineteen forty eight,
the U n adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
(16:51):
which states that individuals must enter into marriage freely, with
full consent, and must be a full age. So, uh,
wild marriage is a violation of human rights. Right, this
is a major human rights issue that we're talking about.
And I until I started doing research on this, you know,
you hear about child marriage, um, but you don't realize
(17:12):
how widespread it is. I think one of the estimates
that I saw was by there would be a hundred
million girls between million girls. Well, so many of them
go unregistered? Oh yeah, because in a lot of communities
there the weddings are held not that frequently, or they're
held in secret um. So you know, they don't it's
(17:33):
not like they go to the courthouse and get a
wedding license, a marriage license for an eight year old, right. UM.
But going back to that education piece, UM, Sri Lanka
in the state of Kerala and India both have high
rates for first or high ages, I should say, for
first marriages. And they also happened to share the priority
(17:54):
of education for men and women, which sparks greater support
for women's rights. Right. They too, there's actual conversations and
and opinions developed about consent, consent to marriage or sexual intercourse. UM.
There's greater support for delaying marriage. Right. And there's UM
a nonprofit organization called the Verny Project which UM is
(18:18):
operating in I forget the state that it's operating in
in uh in India, but they go into these communities
and really focus on educating the women, educating the females,
trying to break those UM, those generational cycles to keep
the girls in school, which in effect delays marriage. And
one person we have to talk about before in this
(18:38):
podcast is a Jude Ali. Yes. Yes, she was married
at a very young age UM to a man much older. Yes,
and she managed to escape. She took some pennies, a
couple of coins, got on the bus went to the
courthouse and she sat there until someone finally said, UM,
(18:59):
what are you doing? Yeah, and she said, I want
a divorce and the judge she had a female attorney
who helped her. Um, and she was granted a divorce.
And the thing is it captured worldwide attention. Well, she
was ten years old and the time, I think Time
magazine said she is the youngest known divorcee in the world,
and this was in two thousand eight, right, And she
(19:21):
actually her story inspired two other girls soon thereafter from
her village to get to get divorces also super divorces.
And also thanks to her testimony, Yemen raised its minimal
age for marriage from fifteen to eighteen. But that said,
a lot of these countries where this is happening, the
minimum marriage age is eighteen. But it's going on under
(19:45):
the table because this is all about um dowries and
economics and survival exactly. Well, I think what really struck
me was at the very end of that article about
this poor girl. UM, I mean, good for her getting
out of that situation, but this quote that she has
the she was interviewed and the interviewer asked her whether
(20:06):
she hopes to meet her Prince Charming one day and
this little girl ten years old is already cynical. She
sits back in the chair, She folds her arms across
her chest, and she says, I no longer think about marriage.
I mean, yeah, ten years old, you've been traumatized, you've
already gone through a divorce. Yeah, yeah, you might be
considering some other issues like education. Her number one priority
(20:29):
when the people were the reporter was talking to her
was education. She wanted to go to college. Yeah. I
think she wanted to be a lawyer, right, yeah, which
makes a lot of sense. Um, But we wanted to
shed more light on child marriage because I personally think
that it deserves a lot more attention, right and Una
stuff has said that they don't think that not only
(20:51):
the media, but actual women and children's rights groups, they
don't think that these groups give enough attention to it. Sure, well,
hopefully you know, the more people to talk about listeners, tell,
tell your friends, be that person talking about child marriage.
I know it's a downer topic and it was a
little bit, but you need to get to know word.
It is good to know. And if you are interested
(21:12):
in learning more about what you can do to help
or organizations that are combating child marriage around the world.
Check out care dot org. Um Uni Stuff is working
on the International Organization for Women's Development, and the Verney
Project which I mentioned earlier are just a few of
the nonprofits and NGOs out there working to keep these
(21:35):
girls in school um and break generational cycles of child marriage.
And if you have any thoughts that you'd like to
share with me and Caroline about this issue or any
other topic on your mind, our email address is mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. And in the meantime,
we have a couple of emails for you. I've got
(21:56):
one here um not to totally switch gears, but to
totally switch gears. I have one here from Ethan in
regard to our douche podcast. Let's hear it. He says,
my question is regarding the use of douche bag as
a pejorative. I happen to love the term, and in
(22:17):
this era of sensitivity, many of the insults that we
casually tossed about in our childhood are verboten, and justly
so in my opinion. However, I'd really love to keep
douche bag in the lexicon now, since douching is actually
an unhealthy concept thought up by businesses that don't have
women's health in mind, and since they're sold to under
(22:39):
educated or ill informed people based on insecurities that societies
and still can the case be made that douching is
evil and therefore it is okay for us to consider
continue using douche and douche bag as insults, provided, of course,
that we are not regressing to the sixties unattractive co
ed use. Sure, I'm fine, Yeah, I'm I'm quely fine
(23:00):
with making fun of of douching. Yeah, because, like like
Ethan said, it is unhealthy. Right. Well, I have an
email from Kristen, not you, another one, um, but this
is another tall Kristen. She says, I'm a five ft
eleven and three quarters women of Germanic and Scandinavian descent.
(23:24):
My husband is a five eight or almost man of
Chinese descent. When we started dating in college, I did
feel awkward dating someone four inches shorter than me, but
as a friend told me at the time, all men
are the same height. Lying down, I'm really glad I
didn't dismiss him or have height requirements for dating like
I've heard other women do. After all, I'm sure I've
(23:45):
been overlooked because of my height. Our son has my
height and my husband's good looks, so he has the
best of both. World dream Boat, so good well Kristen
and Ethan, thanks for those emails and thanks to everyone
else it has emailed us um and also thanks to
everyone who has headed over to Facebook like you should
(24:06):
do right now if you haven't already, and leave a
comment and like us say hello. You can also catch
us over on Twitter. Our handle is at mom Stuff
Podcast and again our email address is mom Stuff at
how stuff Works dot com. And as always, you can
check out what we're doing during the week on our blog,
(24:27):
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(24:54):
thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?
From house Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. So just as
(00:21):
a reminder for listeners out there. UM, a little while
ago in podcast history, Molly and I did an episode
on human trafficking and sex trafficking, and one aspect of
sex trafficking that we didn't get to address that really
needs to be talked about, I think, even more than
(00:42):
it is in the media and elsewhere, is the issue
of child marriage and child brides. Right. Yeah, imagine if
you were eight years old living in Afghanistan or India, UM,
some states, Uh, you don't get to dream about your
wedding day the same way that girls in the West do. Right,
maybe you h A lot of girls in poor rural
(01:04):
societies are betrothed to much older men, some before they're born,
some when they're very young, and a lot are married
off when they're eight, ten, twelve years old. Right, And
a lot of times once a girl the standard for
a girl being marriageable in a lot of these um
communities because it varies by from country to country, and
(01:27):
then also from tribe to tribe, community to community, state
to state. Once the girl has her monarchy, gets her
first period, she is marriageable, and like you said, Caroline,
sometimes they're even betrothed long before that might happen. So
let's take a step back, maybe and and provide a
global outlook on where child marriage is most prominent and
(01:51):
how many girls are being wedded off right. Most of
these marriages of young girls and older men take place
in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia UM. According to UNIEF.
In the Middle East, North Africa and other parts of Asia. UM,
marriage at or shortly after puberty is common. Um. Some
(02:12):
some cultures believe, especially if they're living in a violent
community maybe their civil strife going on, that as soon
as a girl has her period and she can therefore
technically reproduce, then she's just a magnet for trouble. And
by trouble you mean things like having sex or even
being sexually assaulted. Right, um, And just to put some
(02:34):
some numbers around this. According to a two thousand nine
article and the Review in Epstetrics and Gynecology in South Asia,
thirty one million marriages include girls under eighteen. In Sub
Saharan Africa, that number is fourteen million. In Latin America
and the Caribbean it's six point six million. And obviously
in the in the United States, UM, girls under eighteen
(02:55):
UM might end up in a similar kind of situations,
but it is far less common. UM in the number
one country where this is a problem would be Niger
where UM they have the highest rate of child marriage
at seventy six point six percent. And I believe by
(03:16):
by child marriage this means girls under eighteen who are married.
And that's followed by Chad, Bangladesh, Molly, and Guinea. Right. Um. Now,
there is one writer and it was I think it's
of Stetrics and Gynecology, pointed out that there are different
terms that people use for when for when young girls
(03:37):
are married off UM. A lot of people use the
term child bride or early marriage, and she argues that
the writer argues that these are not sufficient terms to
express what's really going on. Her Her point is that
child bride sounds almost like, yeah, we're getting married, and
that's that's just not appropriate. UM. Early marriage doesn't quite
(03:59):
paint the picture either, because I mean, I think it's
an early marriage of someone who's nineteen gets married, So
that doesn't quite indicate what we're talking about today, which
is young children and those the pros and cons of
that kind of terminology reminds me of conversations that will
often come up between uh, female circumcision versus female genital mutilation.
(04:21):
Some say that, you know, in a similar way, female
circumcision seems to sort of soften the actual procedure of
of what's going on that is more like genital mutilation,
which obviously has a much harsher harsher edge. UM. So,
I guess in the in the advocacy world, child marriage
is the preferred term. And just to just to offer
(04:44):
a little bit of insight on a case study on
why this happens in Niger, like I said, that has
the highest rate of child marriage. It really comes out
of a need to follow tradition and really reinforced ties
between communities and protect girls from out of wedlock pregnancy.
Like you brought up, Caroline, once the girl has her period,
(05:07):
she can get pregnant um and that can be a
huge um. If that happens, she'll be ostracized UM. And
it's a way to prevent that. This isn't born out
of you know, hatred for these girls and trying to
subject them to miserable lives of of marriages that aren't
of their choosing, um, But but a lot of very
(05:28):
common threads that that run throughout all of these different situations, right.
And you know you mentioned protecting the girls, sending them
off to get married to protect them. But in that
Obstetric Obstetrics and Gynecology article, the writer points out that
actually the opposite effect happens in that early marriages actually
(05:49):
make it more likely that the young wives will contract
diseases and be victims of sexual violence by their husbands. Um.
Because if you think about it, you know, these girls
are young, they haven't had sexual partners. You know, that's
exactly why some of these men are marrying them. Because
they're young, they're pure, they haven't had other partners, um.
But the men have, and in a lot of cases
(06:09):
they have other wives. So if they have contracted diseases,
they're going to end up giving it to these young girls,
who because of you know, how they are set up biologically,
being so young and not fully developed, they're actually more
prone to contracting these uh, sexually transmitted infections because of
injuries they could sustain during sexual intercourse. Right, just so
(06:32):
you have you an idea, um in, I believe this
is coming from UNICEF in Uganda. The HIV prevalence rate
of married girls and single girls between the ages of
fifteen and nineteen years is eighty nine percent and sixty
six percent, respectively. And that's that's the eighty nine percent
for the married young girls versus sixty six percent for
(06:53):
the single girls, and their rates of contracting HPV and
cervical cancer and developing cervical cancer are much higher than
the general population. But let's let's back up for a
little bit and and talk about a little bit more
about why this happens, because um as listeners probably assume
(07:13):
this is going on in what are called traditional societies,
which unify UNI stuff would define as consisting of extended
families young ages at marriage, spouse is chosen by elders,
absorption of the newlywed into households basically like the young
girl becomes part of her taken away from her family
(07:38):
um and then having as many children right away as
you can. Right, it extends fertility when you start having
babies at you know, twelve well, I don't know, fourteen,
you know, years old, you are going to be having
babies for a long time. But the notion, though, of
your parents picking your partner for you is not all
(08:00):
that uncommon, right, It's not weird to them. But what
is weird is the idea of a woman, you know,
growing up in her family, having a normal adolescence that
what you know, what we consider normal, developing a sense
of identity and choosing her own partner. Right. And if
anyone's ever read a History of Marriage by Stephanie Coon's,
you know that marriage way before the evolution of what
(08:23):
we have today. Um, in terms of a love marriage
where you know, I can you know, fall in love
with whoever I want and put a put a ring
on and make it happen. Uh. Marriage has always been,
since the dawn of the dawn of marriage done, since
we've been doing it. It's always been a tool for
(08:44):
economic security, communal bonding, and paternalistic sexual protection, those three things,
and those are the things that still come up over
and over again. And it's not so much an issue
with parents having a role in selecting who you're going
to marry. That still happens all the time in India,
and it's not necessarily a problem, but when that happens
with thirteen year olds, fourteen year olds being married off
(09:07):
for economic reasons, that's when it. Yeah, a big, a
big aspect of this child marriage is that these women
are girls, I should say, come from really poor rural
families and their their families just consider them a burden,
a financial burden. And so we did talk a little
bit about the protection from violence and sexual violence, but
(09:29):
another big aspect is the financial aspect. Yeah, there was
a story recently on Women's e News about so called
drought rides in Kenya right now, because there's a terrible
drought going on in Kenya and for some families, the
only way that they are able to get any kind
of money or any kind of food in their household
(09:53):
is through dowries for their daughters. So there, you know,
there's been an uptick in these um drought ridden area
is in child marriage just so they can get some
kind of food on the table, right. Yeah, you know,
a groom's family could give money or cattle, horses, you
know what, whatever whatever the bride's family can use to
(10:15):
make money. And Kristen going back to Uganda in the
northern part of the country. UM. Some parents have been
known to marry off their daughters to members of the
militia UH not only to gain maybe honor, maybe a
slightly higher social status, but to actually just gain protection
UM from people other people who might threaten them. UM. Actually,
(10:36):
and according to UNI SEF, child marriage is on the
rise in countries that are experiencing civil strife. These countries
UM that show higher rates of child flavory, flavory and trafficking,
UM that have more children on the streets and high
levels of neglect and abandonment. These are the countries that
are showing a rise in child marriage. Because who's going
(10:57):
to protect my kid? I can't afford to do it.
And that's the point that Stella Schumacher, who is a
Unit SEP child protection specialist in New York made. She says,
often families marry off girls very young because they want
to protect them, not realizing the dangerous that they face.
It requires a change of social norms, and legislation isn't
(11:17):
enough because kind of going back to you know comment
that we made earlier, this isn't um. These families don't
wish doom and gloom on their their daughters. A lot
of times it is culturally culturally ingrained or either force
or economic conditions or civil unrest. If your mother, your grandmother,
your great grandmother, if they all went through it, that's
(11:38):
what they know. You know, maybe it's not their ideal
situation either, but it's the tradition in their culture. Um.
But even if it is has become a generational cycle,
even if it is linked to poverty and civil unrest,
and perhaps parents have you know, these very paternalistic ideas
of you know, protecting their daughter's honor by sort of
(12:03):
sending them off before they even have a chance to
be deflowered. Uh, it is dangerous. It puts these girls
in in such direct harm physically. Um, Premature pregnancy happens
so much more often when you have these underage bride right,
and by premature, I mean we mean these girls should
(12:24):
not be getting pregnant because of the damage it can
do to their body and the damage it can do
to the baby itself. Um, young girls are actually fifteen
times more likely to die during childbirth according to PDS.
They they had a series about child marriage and I
didn't know this, but it's actually, uh, the leading cause
of death worldwide for girls fifteen to nineteen. Yeah, and
(12:47):
even if these young girls survive childbirth, a lot of
times UM they might have irreversible health problems such as fistula,
which causes chronic incontinence and often leads to abandonment and
isolation because they're just ostracized from from their group. Their
husband wants nothing to do with them, society wants something
(13:08):
to do with them. And there are two million girls
living with a fistula, a lot of which is related
to this kind of forceful sex at a very young
age childbirth at a very young age. There have been
um a number of stories about child brides who have
bled to death after their their husbands have had sex
(13:29):
with them for the first time because their their bodies
were so small they can't take it. There was a
National Geographic article that mentioned at the very end a
thirteen year old girl who was taken to the hospital
four days after she was married. UM her basically her
internal organs had suffered major damage because of sexual intercourse
with her husband. And it's also not good if they
(13:51):
do have a child, it's it's not good for UM.
But the odds of the baby surviving birth is not
very good, and mortality for mothers under the age twenty
is about UM sixty higher than it is for the
general population, right, And I mean these women are experiencing
abuse too. They're more likely to experience sexual abuse, UM beating, abandonment,
(14:17):
so I mean not a good situation. Yeah. There was
a pretty intense, uh photo essay from Foreign Policy magazine
that we found online, and one of the photos showed
I think he was a thirty five year old husband
who had tried to kill his fifteen year old wife
ended up killing the grant her grandmother in the process.
(14:40):
But you do hear anecdotally from the you know, the
advocacy workers who are going in and trying to in
the practice of child marriage a lot of you hear
about a lot of times because the girls are separated
from their families and taken away and they might never
see their family again. There's a lot of domestic violence
that goes along with that. And of course if these
(15:01):
girls are married off so young, they're not going to
complete their education, right. It just sort of fosters a
cycle of illiteracy, not only a literacy, but poverty of
course too, because if you don't get an education, how
can you raise your socioeconomic status, get a better job,
or get a job at all. If you are taken
as a child directly from your parents, you know, maybe
you had a little schooling. But if you're taken directly
(15:22):
out of your house, you know, married off to some
older man, when are you going to advance your education.
You don't get the chance to develop your intellect, develop
a sense of self, develop any self confidence. So you
are more likely to be not only subservient, but um
manipulated by your husband. Yeah, and and that's such an
important key in terms of development in a lot of
(15:46):
these countries. Um, Like we've talked about many times during
the podcast, women are the key to, like you said,
ending cycles of poverty and raising up socioeconomic levels. Studies
have shown over over again that when you educate the mothers,
then it passes along to the children. Not to say
the men don't need help but attention as well. But
(16:07):
a lot of times, like if you give, if you
get monetary aid to to the women in the house,
it will they are better stewards of that. Then the
men are similarly with with education. And if you want
to learn more about that, I highly recommend reading Half
the Sky by Nicholas Kristoph and Cheryl Wu Dunne, which
we have mentioned before on the podcast. Well, according to
(16:29):
the International Center for Research on Women, eight or more
years of schooling makes it much less likely that a
girl will marry early. She gets to develop that sense
of intellect, sense of self and have a sort of
a childhood or real childhood. Yeah, and I one thing
that we haven't mentioned yet is that in nineteen forty eight,
the U n adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,
(16:51):
which states that individuals must enter into marriage freely, with
full consent, and must be a full age. So, uh,
wild marriage is a violation of human rights. Right, this
is a major human rights issue that we're talking about.
And I until I started doing research on this, you know,
you hear about child marriage, um, but you don't realize
(17:12):
how widespread it is. I think one of the estimates
that I saw was by there would be a hundred
million girls between million girls. Well, so many of them
go unregistered? Oh yeah, because in a lot of communities
there the weddings are held not that frequently, or they're
held in secret um. So you know, they don't it's
(17:33):
not like they go to the courthouse and get a
wedding license, a marriage license for an eight year old, right. UM.
But going back to that education piece, UM, Sri Lanka
in the state of Kerala and India both have high
rates for first or high ages, I should say, for
first marriages. And they also happened to share the priority
(17:54):
of education for men and women, which sparks greater support
for women's rights. Right. They too, there's actual conversations and
and opinions developed about consent, consent to marriage or sexual intercourse. UM.
There's greater support for delaying marriage. Right. And there's UM
a nonprofit organization called the Verny Project which UM is
(18:18):
operating in I forget the state that it's operating in
in uh in India, but they go into these communities
and really focus on educating the women, educating the females,
trying to break those UM, those generational cycles to keep
the girls in school, which in effect delays marriage. And
one person we have to talk about before in this
(18:38):
podcast is a Jude Ali. Yes. Yes, she was married
at a very young age UM to a man much older. Yes,
and she managed to escape. She took some pennies, a
couple of coins, got on the bus went to the
courthouse and she sat there until someone finally said, UM,
(18:59):
what are you doing? Yeah, and she said, I want
a divorce and the judge she had a female attorney
who helped her. Um, and she was granted a divorce.
And the thing is it captured worldwide attention. Well, she
was ten years old and the time, I think Time
magazine said she is the youngest known divorcee in the world,
and this was in two thousand eight, right, And she
(19:21):
actually her story inspired two other girls soon thereafter from
her village to get to get divorces also super divorces.
And also thanks to her testimony, Yemen raised its minimal
age for marriage from fifteen to eighteen. But that said,
a lot of these countries where this is happening, the
minimum marriage age is eighteen. But it's going on under
(19:45):
the table because this is all about um dowries and
economics and survival exactly. Well, I think what really struck
me was at the very end of that article about
this poor girl. UM, I mean, good for her getting
out of that situation, but this quote that she has
the she was interviewed and the interviewer asked her whether
(20:06):
she hopes to meet her Prince Charming one day and
this little girl ten years old is already cynical. She
sits back in the chair, She folds her arms across
her chest, and she says, I no longer think about marriage.
I mean, yeah, ten years old, you've been traumatized, you've
already gone through a divorce. Yeah, yeah, you might be
considering some other issues like education. Her number one priority
(20:29):
when the people were the reporter was talking to her
was education. She wanted to go to college. Yeah. I
think she wanted to be a lawyer, right, yeah, which
makes a lot of sense. Um, But we wanted to
shed more light on child marriage because I personally think
that it deserves a lot more attention, right and Una
stuff has said that they don't think that not only
(20:51):
the media, but actual women and children's rights groups, they
don't think that these groups give enough attention to it. Sure, well,
hopefully you know, the more people to talk about listeners, tell,
tell your friends, be that person talking about child marriage.
I know it's a downer topic and it was a
little bit, but you need to get to know word.
It is good to know. And if you are interested
(21:12):
in learning more about what you can do to help
or organizations that are combating child marriage around the world.
Check out care dot org. Um Uni Stuff is working
on the International Organization for Women's Development, and the Verney
Project which I mentioned earlier are just a few of
the nonprofits and NGOs out there working to keep these
(21:35):
girls in school um and break generational cycles of child marriage.
And if you have any thoughts that you'd like to
share with me and Caroline about this issue or any
other topic on your mind, our email address is mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com. And in the meantime,
we have a couple of emails for you. I've got
(21:56):
one here um not to totally switch gears, but to
totally switch gears. I have one here from Ethan in
regard to our douche podcast. Let's hear it. He says,
my question is regarding the use of douche bag as
a pejorative. I happen to love the term, and in
(22:17):
this era of sensitivity, many of the insults that we
casually tossed about in our childhood are verboten, and justly
so in my opinion. However, I'd really love to keep
douche bag in the lexicon now, since douching is actually
an unhealthy concept thought up by businesses that don't have
women's health in mind, and since they're sold to under
(22:39):
educated or ill informed people based on insecurities that societies
and still can the case be made that douching is
evil and therefore it is okay for us to consider
continue using douche and douche bag as insults, provided, of course,
that we are not regressing to the sixties unattractive co
ed use. Sure, I'm fine, Yeah, I'm I'm quely fine
(23:00):
with making fun of of douching. Yeah, because, like like
Ethan said, it is unhealthy. Right. Well, I have an
email from Kristen, not you, another one, um, but this
is another tall Kristen. She says, I'm a five ft
eleven and three quarters women of Germanic and Scandinavian descent.
(23:24):
My husband is a five eight or almost man of
Chinese descent. When we started dating in college, I did
feel awkward dating someone four inches shorter than me, but
as a friend told me at the time, all men
are the same height. Lying down, I'm really glad I
didn't dismiss him or have height requirements for dating like
I've heard other women do. After all, I'm sure I've
(23:45):
been overlooked because of my height. Our son has my
height and my husband's good looks, so he has the
best of both. World dream Boat, so good well Kristen
and Ethan, thanks for those emails and thanks to everyone
else it has emailed us um and also thanks to
everyone who has headed over to Facebook like you should
(24:06):
do right now if you haven't already, and leave a
comment and like us say hello. You can also catch
us over on Twitter. Our handle is at mom Stuff
Podcast and again our email address is mom Stuff at
how stuff Works dot com. And as always, you can
check out what we're doing during the week on our blog,
(24:27):
It's stuff Mom Never told You at how Stuff Works
dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast,
Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as
we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.
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