Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 5

Our ongoing mini-series on marginalized communities and Christianity continues as we delve into how harmful religious ideas play into marriage and family.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephman.
Never told you a protection of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
And welcome back to our It's not I don't think
it's a mini series anymore. It's a full long series,
isn't it at this point?

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, I feel like a mini series. We're at least
we're approaching the edge. We're approaching the edge of what
a mini series is.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Right, because you know, if we just wanted to go
straight through all of these which is heavy, indeed, I think, yeah,
it would be a season essentially. Yeah, if we had
those which we don't believe in. Those we don't believe
in them.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
We're just kind of we're doing what we can with
the time we have and our mental health.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
That's right, That's right. Okay, we'll say it like that.
And yes, we are back with the series for Christianity
and religious Trauma in the Western Christian World. I guess
that's how I'm gonna put it. I keep changing the names.
I need to get it together on this.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
You do, and you know this is a peak behind
the curtain. But I generally write the description title, so
any errors in there are mine.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
I'm not helping with all the confusion.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
But I am often like, okay, wait, what are we
calling it now?

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Until I do. You were trying to say that I
came up with good names the other day, I was like, girl, no,
I could come up with this concepts. You have to
write the names because I can never actually title anything. Yes,
that's one of the words. Deep right, team, this is
how we this is how we figure it out. But yes,
so far, we've talked about women in Western Protestant churches,

(01:53):
misogyny within the religious community, purity culture, and sex abuse
within Southern Baptist churches. Hey, we're talking about yes, even
more trauma, especially related to marriage in domestic violence in
the next episode, divorce. But yes, and then we are
more specifically talking about the role of a wife and
mother and motherhood. So yay, content warning, we are talking

(02:17):
about domestic violence, abuse, religious trauma, and childhood trauma as well,
because some of this was a little too close to home.
Once again, once again, yes, and by the way, I
have ruined my Google algorithm and I can't find anything
that isn't a Christian blog trying to tell me that

(02:40):
I would be a better human if I had babies
raised them in a church and supported my husband. It
is a generalization, but y'all, those are the articles I'm getting,
and they're all blogs or church related affiliated columns telling
me these are the steps of being a good woman.

(03:00):
I can't get it off my screen and it's really upsetting.
I'm really getting annoyed by this. Yes, however, it is
offering a lot of columns again that start with how
to be a godly woman? Godly comes up quite often. Man,
I have been so far away from this world seeing

(03:23):
this it makes my heart skip a beat, not in
a good way, right, And yes, if I mentioned marriage,
it immediately steps into how to be a good mother,
like that's the next thing on the list. And usually
being married means your next step is to be a mother.
So why are you hesitating? Obviously? And yeah, So growing

(03:45):
up in this very religious lifestyle as a girl, I
had always heard that women, for women, our greatest gifts
were to be a wife, to be a mother, and
to have a family. My own adoptive family is made
up of the traditional working dad and a stay at
home mom. I mean she had dinner ready made, sure

(04:07):
that the home was perfect. I grew up watching my
mother pick lint off the carpet every time she went
by me in the living room, and I thought that
was normal, like who does and then realizing, oh, my
mother's extra special and extra attentive when it comes to
it is I my You and I have talked about

(04:29):
how in comparison to our mother's, how we feel so sloppy.
My mother has it together. Even to this day. She
has a little bit of clutter in her storage attic,
and she apologizes for that as if it's a mess,
like people are going to go sit up there and
hang out like that. Yes, I'm like, I wouldn't have

(04:50):
known had you not told me what's happening. And yes,
my mother was also very event to my father. She
wouldn't take his crap and he would never abuse her
in such a way, but like obviously she would follow
his lead. Even having a serious conversation recently, she would say,
you just need to talk to your father. Of course

(05:13):
that also has in part that he and I can
actually have a conversation as where she gets heated up
and we both start crying, So that might be the
other reason. But yes, she had dinner ready. She raised
four kids, including myself, and then she raised many more
foster children. So I've had lots of people in her
home and she has been called mom by several several

(05:35):
several people who are not her biological children, myself included.
And yeah, she made it look doable. Don't get me wrong.
I definitely saw her on the edge a couple of
times where she would just absolutely lose it and we'd
be like, Okay, Mama, mama's mama's go Mom's going out.
Mom is going to have it out with us, so
we need to go hide because it's it's that time
and it's rare. And it was fair that she did,

(05:56):
because she was like, she's very patient, but she was
ready to blow and things made go flying across the
kitchen like we knew things were happening. We needed to run,
oh god. Or it was also the tradition that she
would finally get fed up with my father and say
this is where I learned that term. And my mother
never curses, but yeah, she would literally be like yes

(06:17):
and then just walk off. One of my favorite phrases
still I still love to use it, by the way,
a good one it is. And then but watching her
going through all this, watching her relationship with her my father,
I actually told them. This was not what I wanted.
I said that out loud. I remember getting on to
my father a few times because my mother would have

(06:40):
dinner ready. We never sat at a table. We sat
in the living room, watched TV. We had like probably
a dinner tray. We were those people. My dad had
a random long board that he used as a dinner
tray that went across the chair. It was hilarious. Don't ask,
but he would use that and would sit in his

(07:02):
big chair, comfy chair and eat. But he was always
the first person to get up late that my mother
would bring to him, and he would if he finished
dinner before my mother finished and he wanted seconds, she
would immediately stop eating, get up, take his plate, get
his second course, and come back and then start finishing
her first plate, in which I would get so upset.

(07:24):
I would yell at my father, you need to get
up yourself and let her eat. I was very upset. Yeah,
but this is the type of home that we lived in.
My mother loved it. My mother really felt like this
was her calling. She will tell you this, this is
her calling to be our mother and to be her
be his wife. And yeah, this was not my goal.

(07:49):
I did not want this. I went to college away
from home. I was the first person to actually leave
the home to go to college. I did focus on
service though, And yeah, I've talked about my experience as
a missionary, which I regret. And there's a lot of
things that we need to unpack with the colonization and
missionary work and and that kind of deceptiveness. But that's

(08:12):
a whole different episode that I don't think we're going
to talk about this time around in the series. But
who knows, who knows? But yeah, and well, of course,
in that the focus of the church is to bring
more Christians into the world, whether through conversion or through birth.
And yeah, it's a gathering of a kingdom. It sounds

(08:32):
like a cult, yeah, and they would never call themselves
a cult, but that's what the intent. The intention is
to convert all of the world to their beliefs, so
and their way of life, just say yeah and again.
But for my young college days, I did study a lot,

(08:53):
and I also worked in ministry. I did the entire thing.
I was working every weekend around the Southeast teaching teenage
kids biblical stories and ideals. I sang with them. I
ran a women's ministry at church at my local church,

(09:14):
I went to church faithfully, went to Bible study, I
led Bible study in our churches. So yeah, I was very,
very very big into this. But as expected in college life, well, okay,
I have to backtrack. Not expected, I guess. I definitely

(09:36):
fell into the idea. As the Christian college girl. My
goal not only was to serve, I was to find
a partner a husband. Everything that the Bible told me
about this situation is that I need to find my leader,
the head of the household, and practice the techniques of

(09:58):
finding the perfect mate or mail as we say here,
And boy was it exhausting. Boy was it exhausting. Along
the lines of purity culture, there was the whole idea
of courtship. Oh God, I'm so embarrassed talking about this.
I'm so embarrassed. Handy, It's okay, this is a safe space.

(10:26):
But yes, I want to do it. Of course, this
isn't necessary a thing with all churches. I think a
lot of people who are churchgoers and went to church
in college, who go to church like not religiously, but
will come every Sunday or every other Sunday or that
they don't do this and would probably give us a
side eye for the ones who did this, but it

(10:48):
was something I fell for. It's this weirdly romantic but
misogynistic ideal of meeting that godly man. Somehow it was romantic.
I think it's that same notion of like churning the
bad boy, and you're like, this is not a good
situation except for Jesus plus I guess plus Jesus, right,

(11:12):
And books like Passion and Purity, I cast Date and
Goodbye the Five Languages of Love have a fueled a
whole generation of young people into dating Jesus's way or
not dating in Jesus's way. Actually, again, I was one
of those people. I read all of those books. Actually
I did not read The Languages of Love because it

(11:35):
came a little later.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
But I that is the one where we talk about
like our love language, right, yeah, joke about it.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, we talk about it, and there's some merit to it.
But man, the level that people the level of confidence
that people have put in that book, Yeah, it is comical.
I will say that it is comical. Yeah, you know.
And in all of this, which is why I said
I had to backtrack a little bit. I've joke that
I lost a lot of my college experiences with all

(12:03):
the fear that my beliefs piled onto me. Caroline, former
host of the show, she and I had vastly different
college experiences even though we went around the same time
to the same colleges, Like we never interacted because we
were so different right in our social habits. And I

(12:24):
feel sad that I kind of missed out on it.
I do feel like I've been stunted because of it.
And I'm not alone. I'm not alone just watching my
peers go through a whole process. I'm going as far
in this courtship again my face is turning around and

(12:45):
having to ask a permission from the parent of the
person that you want to go out with before even
going out, Like this is not getting married, We're not
asking like this is like, hey, I think I actually
want to go on a with them, but it's not
actually a date because oftentimes it would be a group

(13:07):
hang or something and so, but yeah, they would still
go and ask the parents, will I have intentions with
your daughter? Oh? And that's it sounds so ridiculous, but yes,
that's the level it would get. To imagine it being
a mix of wholesome k drama, which now you understand

(13:29):
a little more of with the staunch eighteen hundred's idea
of propriety. Uh where. At this point, though, the parents
are just as confused as the rest of the world,
like what is what are y'all doing? Are you getting married? No? No, no,
no, no no, we're thinking about being boyfriend and girlfriend m hm,
and so the levels like wait, what what is happening?

(13:51):
And yeah, there was. It was a novel idea that
if we strip down all progress and freedom and love,
then we can undo all the sense we were backtracking
essentially in culture and dating culture. I should have a
therapy session just on this. You should write a book.

(14:13):
I should write a book. I don't want to. Yeah,
And if you follow the rules and know the rules
of books like Passion and Purity, where Elizabeth Elliott teaches
how to catch a husband. Now, don't get me wrong,
her thing is of a memoir about the fact that
she met her perfect husband and how that went down
and they went missionaries out in the world and then

(14:34):
he dies it's not nice, but you know, and then
she gets married I think a couple more times after
the fact, but it's the story about how he courted
her and the expectations. Here's a quote from a Christian
blog as they describe the book. Quote. She strongly cautions
against new trends like women initiating relationships, citing how masculinity

(14:57):
is rooted in God's character as initiates. This is from
the book. He woos us, calls us, wins us, give
us his capital h name, shares with us his destiny
capital age, takes responsibility for us, loves us with a
love stronger than death. She writes of the masculine responsibility

(15:18):
to quote care for, protect, provide for, and cherish for women.
She encourages qualities like affirmation, tenderness, maternalism, and mystery, a
sort of modesty and reserve. So in this blog she
is praising and this is new. This is a newer blog.
So I'm telling you it revamps every few years. This book.

(15:42):
Her estate has to have a lot of money, but
she's trying to encourage this old practice once again with
this novel idea that this manly man with gentle spirit
will come and woo you. I'm not anti Roman, but
I do still think we need to lower our expectations

(16:06):
where we are setting us up as well as our
partners up for failure. Well you know whatever, yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Well, for books like I Kissed, Dating Goodbye, the call
for Christians to give up dating altogether was revolutionary. Tales
of consequences of sin and eternal loneliness for those who
took dating lightly was the forefront of many of the
messages in these books, the ignoring of human impulse desire

(16:37):
and pushing for everyone, especially women, to fight against it,
as if it would be the end of the world
to succumb to such awful temptations. But it also made
sure to add an extra large side of homophobia, as
Harris wrote in the book of him finding the fact
that he may have been checked out by three gay

(16:57):
men really specific a quote disgusting moment. He specifically writes
out that it made him respond with quote anger and
disgust and that it was quote wrong, so filthy.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Right. So we're talking about Joshua Harris, the author of
Kiss Stating Goodbye and then Boy Mats Girl, a book
about courtship.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yes ah, but since then he has had a change
of heart. In fact, he's halted all reprints of the
book in twenty eighteen and in Instagram post, he apologized
and wrote, I have lived in repentance for the past
several years, repenting of my self righteousness, my fear based
approach to life, the teaching of my books, my views

(17:40):
of women in the church, and my approach to parenting,
to name a few. But I specifically want to add
to this list now to the LGBTQ plus community. I
want to say that I am sorry for the views
that I taught my books and as a pastor regarding sexuality.
I regret standing against marriage equality, for not affirming your
place in the church, and for any ways that my

(18:01):
writing and speaking contributed to a culture of exclusion and
big A treatment. So that's something. Yeah, yeah, Much like
many other millennials have also taken many steps away from
their faith, Harris has done the same. But the results
of the books like his still remain. And since we've

(18:23):
already talked at length about the toxicity of purity culture,
will bypass the redundancy of how purity culture ruined everything,
including dating. But let's talk about the Christianity and religious
trauma and how that has affected marriage, motherhood, and the
messy violence.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm not going to regel you with all the awful
courtship conversations that happened in college life. That's a whole
like outtake episode that that doesn't need to happen. So yeah,

(19:08):
the perfect wife and mother that seems to be the
ultimate goal. For years, my mother would let me know,
especially during the holidays, that she feared that I would
be like many of the women who would never settle
down and never have children of their own, and that
I would die alone with no children to care for me,
in which I responded, I would probably never have children,

(19:30):
give it up, I told them about Many times. She
would also give me examples of aunts, spinster aunts who
did not have children and how unhappy they were, And
I was like, I don't think that's true. I think
you want to paint it that way. I don't think
that's true. But okay, But she wasn't a fan of
my take.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
Here.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
For a woman whose identity is wrapped up in her
husband and children, this seemed like I was a person
with no purpose. Again, I would like to reiterate that
there's nothing wrong in loving your partner, loving your children,
loving your life, and caring for your family and giving
things to a higher power for these things, But to
do any of these things out of fear or fomo

(20:14):
fear of missing out. Yeah cool, then yes, maybe we
should re examine the reasons. Children will not fix our mistakes.
They won't fill the whole often left by past traumas,
will not be the love you've been trying to get
from an absent parent. And in my perspective, again, yes,
in my perspective, it is wrong to place that type

(20:36):
of responsibility onto a child. Just gonna put that out there. Sorry,
not sorry, but yes, I digress. Young women in the
Church are taught to be ready to serve and support family,
especially your husband. As in fact, many articles and Christian
advice columns, many of them will even give you an
exact list of things to do. And here's a list

(20:59):
of them from an article titled twelve Wonderful responsibilities God
has given to women. So number one, to love, believe,
and respect the Lord. To support the gospel work of
the Church. To be diligent in her vocations, so at
least she could have a job. To be a wife,
to be a mother, to care for her household, to

(21:22):
be a helper to her husband, To love and respect
her husband, to submit to her husband, to be respectable
to learn quietly in church and teach what is.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Good interesting, all right, And with that, with that list,
we are going to look at ideas closely related to
numbers four through nine. So, yes, women are told that
we must submit to the authority of men, as they

(21:57):
are the head of the household and have been given
the ultimate beauty of steering the family on the most
godly path. The term servant leader is often used to
describe the leadership of men in the household. As one
Christian article writes, quote, a woman who submits to the
servant leadership of a mature Christian man should be letting
herself in for a life where her husband devotes himself

(22:18):
to providing for her needs, protecting her, and yes, directing her.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
At times.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
A servant leader will not insist on his way in
areas where it is not possible to know objectively what
God wants. He will call for his wife to follow
Christ along with himself, but will graciously allow her to
refuse his suggestion often and I will say emphasis mine

(22:44):
that I put in there. But yeah, just that kind
of idea of graciously, very very very gracious. Indeed, Christian
women should understand the level of authority that men have
in the household, again under the theory of being a

(23:07):
servant leader. So it's kind of yeah, their godly duty
to be like, I will do what you do, all right?

Speaker 4 (23:12):
Cool?

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right?

Speaker 1 (23:14):
And what is the thoughts on post modern ideals, those
initiatives that women are taking these days. Here's what the
same article I had to say. Our post modern aversion
to authority is incompatible with Christianity, not only because it
flies in the face of biblical teaching, but because it

(23:35):
is based on our fear of corrupt and self serving authority.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
Figures, yes, yes, yes, interesting to be about self. So
in that article they go on to explain that men
and women should rely on each other when it comes
to making decisions in the household. They say, quote, the
wife's submission to the husband within Christian marriage is grounded
in both spouse's willingness to defer to each other in love,

(24:00):
as well as to other Christian friends in their church.
We are all to submit to christ moral leadership whenever
it is expressed through others. But if there happens to
be a standoff in this protocol, here's the advice. In
the rare cases in which husband and wife cannot agree
on an important decision, The husband, who has proven himself

(24:20):
as a servant leader will usually be able to make
a mature decision, so again he is the overall authority.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Howesoutly usually can make a mature decision, all right, And
of course, as the household girls, a woman must learn
to be a wonderful mother. We are not experts, and
in fact, not one host on this show has been
a mother as a recording of this show as when

(24:52):
they were recording, So it's possible there's there's been a
lot of hosts of this show. It's possible that one
of the hosts I have a child now and only
two out of the six are currently married. So yeah,
we are not experts when it comes to marriage. Are
our motherhood on this show? It isn't hard to see
though that as the list we read earlier implied, being

(25:15):
a mother is a goal with Christian marriages, and again,
choosing to be a mother is amazing and one's own choice.
So yeah, please don't think we're saying that there's anything
bad about that.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Right, There's always been pressure to be a perfect mother.
I think that's in just a generalization for all women
who are mothers. Being a mother often brings judgment from
others and as on, the pressure of being responsible for
another living beings terrifying. But in the Christian world, the
perfect mother is something that impacts the Christian population. Article
upon article all agree that women and mothers are responsible

(25:53):
for teaching their child the pathway of Christianity. And because
all I'm getting is Christian advice column, here's another list,
this time giving us some characteristics of a godly mother.
Are you ready? A godly mother cultivates a joyful spirit,
keeps up your heart, built up her house, is a
disciple maker, cheerfully serves her family, trains her children the

(26:16):
way they should go, practices patients in kindness, and lives
with christ like selflessness.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yes, which we have talked about before. And I will
say as we record this Mother's days coming up, and
I was trying to buy my Mother's Day card and
a lot of the cards have this kind of rhetoric.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Ye forgot it was happening, y'all. We are so timely.
I completely didn't even think about this. Oh always on purpose.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yes, yes, And from the same article, quote when a
godly mother's work is done humbly and for the Lord
God will be made real in the lives of her children.
The ungodly world that is drawn by passing phases and
outward beauty will never see or understand the immortal beauty
of the influence of a godly mother. When mothers partner

(27:09):
with God, their children will be fit not only for
life in an ungodly world, but also for a future
in heaven.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah. This is exhausting, this list alone. I'm having flashbags
on really just putting on that facade which we've talked
about a lot of being the kind, dainty, gentle, soft,
perfect woman to show off and be like, yes, look
at me, I am a viable woman to be your partner.

(27:39):
I will give you babies which I wouldn't, and I
will support you like this whole level. Oh God, it's
making me sweat. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, I mean, especially that whole idea which we've talked
about before, of like being so selfless that the man
in this situation is just automatically before you and that's
a good thing.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
But there are a lot of women, and many of
whom are Christian, who push that perfect mother narrative to
the side. Who do they realize how impractical and unrealistic,
that is, and most Christians might even say it is
man made, and many have spoken out against the idea.

(28:24):
In another Christian article, one woman writes, I used to
be a perfect parent. I had strong opinions about the
best way to raise a happy, healthy, well mannered child.
I vowed that my children would appear well groomed and
clean it all times. They would be disciplined by my firm,
fair and consistent parenting techniques, and they would always always

(28:45):
be well behaved in restaurants. And when they were older,
I would instill a sense of self confidence a mutual
respect by showing them that I valued their opinions and
by treating them as equals. My ideas were so straightforward
and simple that I couldn't understand why other parents couldn't
be as perfect as I was. Then I had children. Yeah,

(29:08):
one of my most earliest memories. And I just want
to say at the top here like this was not
a super traumatic memory for me, so.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I don't want to fight about it.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
But I did say I did say damn it in
a church when I was four years old, and my
parents that is the only time I've been spanked.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Wow, they were oh, no, girl, yeah. It took me
until adulthood after college for me to say damn.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
It was a huge deal.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I couldn't did not say God until I was out
of college as well, because that was just bad as
saying across word.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, No, definitely I had friends like that, and you know,
like I would love to one day future episode to
talk about what is going on with our I know
it confuses you, but with like our bleeping rule, but
the fact is, like what I just said is going
to be bleeped part of it for yes, whereas damn

(30:07):
it wouldn't be. Yeah, so it's like infiltrated, all right.
Moving on. In her article, writer Debbie Farmer talks of
her struggle in compromising with her children just to have peace,
whether it's by giving in and allowing them to watch
cartoons on the phone while she's grocery shopping, or letting

(30:30):
them have an unhealthy snack every once in a while,
and wondering what the people around her think and whether
they are judging her for not being the perfect mother.
But she ends the article with this, now, when I
see a mother whose child is happily meandering behind her,
eating a twinkie and wearing wrinkled dinosaur pajamas and a
pair of swim fins. I no longer think she's an

(30:52):
unfit parent. I know she's just doing the best she can. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Absolutely, I mean there's definitely a whole conversation about trying
and disciplining children and all of that. But yeah, in
the end, you're just trying to survive, I think, and
that's commendable, yes and yeah. And then add to all
of these expectations the different types of parenting, whether it's

(31:19):
the crunchy moms, the gentle parenting, which is huge on
TikTok right now. There are a lot of opinions and
debates solely on these ideas. So what happens when you
add Christianity to the mix of it all. I grew
up in a fairly strict home. Spanking was common, Belts
were used in similar tactics. I did have marks all
over me at times, and all with the idea that

(31:42):
the quote this hurts me more than it hurts you,
which is an outright lie. It's a lie. Children, if
you listen to this, that's a lie. Please note these
were different times, and I'm not excusing anything, but the
environment and cultural experience does play into this disciplinary styles
if you think about the boomer level. I know, there's

(32:04):
a whole conversation on TikTok about how it's different when
you were raised under different generations. My generations did have this.
I think it was getting less and less, but this
happened in many children in my community experienced similar childhood discipline.
Like we all probably had moments of like having marks
on us or something traumatic happened. I'm even old enough

(32:27):
to remember children being paddled by teachers in the school,
so that was a whole thing as well. And a
lot of this came from the Christian adage spare the rod,
spoil the child. And unfortunately, if you really want to
talk about it, this just take it out of context
and was made literal because this was supposed to be
about like shepherds leading with the rod, which they don't

(32:48):
beat their sheep with rod, but you know whatever, whatever,
that's a whole conversation. And yeah, one form of this
very idea that includes this is Christian fundamentalism. Writer Rebecca
Drumsta talks about this on her site and her own experiences.
She explains, quote, parenting inside a Christian fundamentalist system usually

(33:10):
comes with a formula of some sort based on what
they have been told is biblical parenting by a fundamentalists
pastor organization or ministry leader. And are in support of
breaking your child's will as soon as possible, but that's
masked as obedience, submission, and conforming to what is expected
by the authority.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yes, and she goes on explaining spanking is traditionally the
preferred method of discipline. Obedience to parents is pre eminent.
Children have no voice or autonomy. Often even after they
are of legal age or married, they must still defer
to the parent. Sex is rarely discussed. Generally no education
given on the subject, and the very word spelled out

(33:52):
but not spoken is seen as taboo, except in the
occasional gender exclusive settings such as a women's only session
at a mayorae conference. And Fundamentalism often includes the following elements.
Authoritarian control, no outside influences, and obedience to your parents
and church without question. Fear motivating based on fear God

(34:14):
is always watching, Shame, feeling shame for falling short, lack
of emotional education, can't trust your own emotions or being
told to always control your emotions like think of young
boys being told they can't cry, no mental health support,
just pray about it.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Parental perfection.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Never show your flalls, you need to fake it and
abuse drumsta rights. Parents inside of fundamentalism are conditioned to
believe you must protect the name of God, the church,
and those in leadership. This carries into not reporting to
the authorities or properly handling abuse situations with their own
children or members of their community, but instead dealing with

(34:56):
things internally by shipping the person to a new chane church,
sending them to an approved biblical counseling program, or simply
having a stern talk with the accused. It also enables
abusers to continue harming their wives, children, congregants, and yes,
even their husbands and grandchildren. This mindset has damaged countless

(35:17):
individuals and caused compound trauma as victims are shamed, not believed,
and even further victimized by those who are in posisions
of leadership or authority. Spiritual abuse is rampant in fundamentalist circles,
as is sexual, physical, and psychological abuse.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, and I think that's another conversation we could have
that I'm not gonna get too deep into, because, like
I said, people who have grown up in fairly strict
church background homes. Understand what this is. You have examples
of it. We talked previously about the abuses within churches,
such as sexual abuse that is often ignored or just

(35:53):
talked over and hidden. So we're not gonna too deep
on that, but let's talk about what happens when things
like domestic abuse happens. And according to one report in
the Baptistnews dot Com, the church has been a hunting
ground for domestic abusers. In the article, Janice Garrison Morrison,
I hope that's right, writes quote, domestic abusers have admitted

(36:17):
that the church is the best place to find a gullible, timid,
complacent wife. Abusers know all they have to do is
fake an interest in spirituality, say the right things, and
get involved. At church, young women are taught to value
strong male leadership and to watch for men who are
committed to God. Then, due to the encouragement of short engagements,
these girls are married long before they realized it was

(36:39):
all a ruse, only to be told is too late
and marriage is forever now. In her article, again it's
from Baptistnews dot Com, she often phrases the idea that
abusers infiltrate more so than the fact that they are
already part of that community or that they're raised within
the churches and within those communities. So I think that's
something to be said as if they're talking about lurking

(37:02):
monsters seeking to pounce on victims, and so that oftentimes,
instead of addressing the actual issues and rectified in the situation,
we see deflections kind of like this and outright denial.
But again, she's not wrong. Abusers have an amazing sense
of finding victims. We know this, but they may have
already been there.

Speaker 4 (37:23):
Right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
And as we were researching this, we found a lot
of articles about churches and their leadership telling victims to
not talk about their abuse and oftentimes told to go
back to their abusive situations. In an article found on
the Criminal Justice Research Net, they write, quote holy hush
pervades many religious settings when it comes to the topic

(37:59):
of domestic violence. Even finding the right words to describe
what has happened in a violent outburst between a husband
and a wife can be contentious. Given the sociopolitical landscape
regarding the issue of abuse in the family context, perhaps
it is not too surprising that naming the issue becomes
a political act. By and large, clergy and other religious

(38:21):
leaders prefer the term family violence, downplaying the gender power
and balance. Moreover, many religious leaders are reluctant to condemn
wife abuse from the pulpit and confuse reconciliation between a
victimized woman and her abusive partner as evidence of recovery,
believing that since the violence has stopped, often only temporarily,

(38:42):
the home is now a safe place for each family member.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Right and actually, there was a Charleston newspaper called The
Post and Courier which received a Pulitzer for their three
part series on domestic violence in South Carolina, and a
pinpointed the Christian culture as one of the rules of
domestic violence. They are. Here's a quote from that article.
Part of the problem is rooted in the culture of
South Carolina, where men have long dominated the halls of power,

(39:09):
setting an agenda that clings to tradition and conservative Christian
tenets about the subservient role of women. This has bread
a tolerance of domestic violence that has passed through so
many generations behind so many closed doors that today I
think it was like twenty eighteen, South Carolina ranks number
one nationwide in the rate of men killing women.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
And in that same article they write about the church's
response when it comes to domestic violence.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
They also talked with clergy to challenge age old beliefs
that domestic unrest was best resulted in the home and
approach that many times made the situation worse. The ministers
told us, quote, it's really a family issue. They need
to work it out. And that's a quote from Crenshaw,
a local worker in a domestic violence center in this article,
quote continues, but in some cases that's like telling a

(39:54):
victim to go running back into a burning house. What
pastors communicate to their flocks also can fuel the problem
if inadvertently scripture says women are to be submissive. Suffering
is part of life, as Jesus suffered for your sins
on the path of salvation. Divorce bus a sin and
it goes on the Reverend Mark Bagwell of Golden Corner,

(40:18):
a contemporary Baptist church in a Cooney's small town of Valhalla,
concedes that religious vows and teachings have likely kept a
good number of women from leaving their abusers. Churches have
played a major role in making women feel that quote
God would be disappointed in them if they left their husband.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
He says, yeah. In that article, it really was very,
very interesting, So if you have time to go look
it up, you should. There have been a lot of
counterpoise from church affiliates and they were not happy. Just
that's actually how I found it. Was again because all
my algorithm is given the church's point of view, but
I nically found it anyway. But there's so many more

(41:02):
stories similar to this, whether it was women who need
to obey their husbands so they aren't hit, or that
it is a family matter, and yeah, I've witnessed this
so many times just growing up in charges like this,
even family telling their children to go back to their husband,
their own daughter and after he the abuse, are actually
admitted to having hit them, and because they were apologetic,

(41:25):
they're like, Okay, yeah, you should go back. And in
this blog Confusion to Clarity, one counselor asked survivors, quote,
what was the worst advice you were given when trying
to get help to deal with your abusive marriage? And y'all, yeah,
this is not cute, so sorry. Here are some of
the responses. God did warn you about him before you
married him. Just don't pay attention. Then there's show him

(41:48):
more respect. Watch your tone you speak to him. If
you speak more respectfully to him, he'll respond in a
positive way. And here's another quote from a woman. She said,
I contacted the police due to him being physically violent
towards me, and my pastor's response was Christians do not
call the police on one another. I suggest you apologize
to your wrongdoing towards your husband.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Ooh, and there's more. My pastor told me he didn't
think what I was telling him was true and said
women in menopause sometimes have breaks from what's real and
what's not. I will not sit here and listen to
you shame your husband. Another woman said I was told
that saying my spouse was abusive and unfaithful was sin.

(42:32):
You need to take him back because he is sorry.
You need to return to him and be a submissive wife,
and you might save him. My pastor said, if I
had a wife like you, I'd hit you myself. They
said I needed to stay and hope and pray that
I couldn't quote give up because God wanted me to
be faithful and patient and persevering.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yeah, and again, article on article on article, they had
these phrases, and I have seen that being said. I
have heard women and victims saying it to themselves, not
having any support, being told that this is their fault.
I made them angry, but they put God on it,
you know, they put Jesus on it on this one. Again.

(43:14):
The message often comes back to women, submit to your
husband and the evils of divorce, which we'll talk about
in the next episode, because yeah, this was very long.
In an article written for The Conversation, they actually talk
about a study completed in England, and it says, in
a survey of churchgoers in Cumbria, England, one in four
respondents had experienced at least one of the nominated abusive

(43:36):
behaviors such as being kicked, punched, threatened with a weapon,
isolated or sexually coerced in their current relationships, and more
than forty percent of the respondents had experienced at least
one in a current or previous relationship. The research noted
if evangelical churches were reluctant to participate in the survey,
perhaps indicating and this is their quote, the reluctance of

(43:59):
these churches to a dress domestic violence in their own communities.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
M and The response, though there are many who are
trying to better their churches, is often lacking, as shown
in the examples above. Victim blaming a lot of shaming.
Women are told to help their husbands to overcome their sins,
or that they are doing something to make men sin.

(44:25):
Some do offer counseling, but oftentimes are lineent to men
who quote pent for their sins and advise wives to
go back to their husbands and family. And when it
comes to emotional abuse, it's even worse. More often than not,
the idea of emotional abuse is dismissed completely as a
non existent problem and with no physical evidence, leaving a

(44:48):
woman trapped as blogger Amy Wildman, White Rights and less.
Pastors and counselors can recognize that often subtle and always
complex dynamics of emotional abuse. Women will contin They need
to be victimized, first by their husbands and then by
the church or the community. And abuse of man who
is not held accountable is indirectly supported and given license

(45:10):
to continue his destructive patterns, and those around him become enablers.
Women are not treated with dignity and respect as God intended,
and so God is not honored.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Right, Yeah, and churches all over the world are getting
called out for their neglectful behavior and lack of advocacy
for women in those churches. Many churches are trying to
step up to assist, often with the idea that such
bad behavior does not exist in their own churches. So
it's an outward thing. Think of missionaries, just those poor

(45:42):
people that they are supposed to save. And if they
were to admit that there is an issue in the
church that crushes the idea that their church is a
godly ordained group of people, they can't admit that. And
going a step further admitting that marriage has failed, which
this is the phrase what God hath joined together, let

(46:02):
no man put as under. That's in mark and is
a moral failing and a sin many can't forgive. This
is the biggest sin I saw it growing up. Divorced
was even worse than someone being hit or raped. And
but that's again the topic for the next episode. It's
not pretty, It's never pretty. But yeah, there's a lot

(46:26):
happening in this conversation. There's a lot of call outs,
but a little solution, it.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Seems, yeah, and I means as this mini series slash
series is proving there's just so much to unpack here
with when you have such a tight morality from such
a young age of like, well this is what makes
me good, right.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
And I could literally go to hell exapt. Yeah, it's
a lot, it's a lot to unpack, and we're continuing to.

Speaker 5 (46:55):
Do so, but surely slowly, let's go with it is
it is, And we've really appreciated hearing from you listeners
about this one and your thoughts about this, So.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Keep that, keep that up. You can email us at
Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff One Never Told You. We're also
on YouTube. We have a book that you can pre
order at stuff you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,

(47:28):
and our contributor Joey. Y'all are the best you are
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever Told
Me is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast on my
heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.