Classic Episode: What's the difference between gender and sex?

Three of the most defining attribute people have are their gender, sex and sexual orientation. Cristen and Caroline offer an easy-to-understand guide to what each of those terms mean and how all of them encompass far more than a his/her, male/female, man/woman binary.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From House to
works dot Com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, And honestly, Caroline, I'm surprised that
we have not done this episode on the difference between
gender and sex sooner, because we talked about those two

(00:25):
things all the time. We do, and and we got
into a lot of the topics um that are related
to this in our transgender one on one episode, you know,
so we do encourage you to go back and give
that a lesson if you haven't, And we're also going
to touch on an even farther back episode on people
who are intersex, and if you want to look for

(00:47):
that episode, it is called why is it so Easy
to Fail a Gender test? Um? And this was another
request that we got from Facebook when we put out
a call for people's dream top fix, and it's got
a number of up votes, I think because it's one
of those basic things that we hear a lot about

(01:08):
in terms of gender difference sex difference, but no one
ever really says, well, what are we talking about exactly?
And you and I use often descriptors of male and female,
sometimes two people's annoyance because it sounds so clinical. Um,
so why use male and female versus men and women? Also, yes,

(01:30):
trans issues, let's sort it all out, Caroline. Yeah, well
to start sorting it out. It's hard to sort it
out because all of this gender stuff really does exist
on a spectrum, as many sociologists psychologists have pointed out. Yeah,
and even academic conversations about gender insects exists on a

(01:55):
spectrum spanning biological determinis and this idea that if you
are born with two X chromosomes, you are female and
thus life is going to probably be like X, y
Z versus on the other end, social constructionism, where we
have how the environment shapes a lot of who we are.
In other words, that's a fancy way of saying we're

(02:17):
gonna be talking a lot about nature versus nurture. Right,
because you can be born biologically male or female. Um,
but the way that you're raised, the way that um,
you know, those the stereotypes that you fit into can
be sort of you know, in the gray area. Things
can be blurred along gender lines, but sex is more

(02:39):
of a biological determinant. And then we also have the
factor of talking about bodies. Yes, but also talking about behavior,
and behavior is such a complicating factor in a lot
of ways, because an evolutionary psychologist would probably tell you
that behavior is never going to be either just nature

(03:00):
or nurture. It's a very complex interweaving of both. But
we're going to try to break it down as easily
as we can to clarify at least the basics of
gender versus sex, and then at the very end we're
going to touch on how sexual orientation ties into all

(03:20):
of this. Right, and you might think that the words
gender and sex were always around, that those distinctions have
always existed, but that's not so. It wasn't until about
the nineteen fifties and sixties that the distinctions between sex
and gender first emerged in the English language through psychiatrists
who were working with intersex and trans sexual patients. And

(03:40):
it is also, as would seem obvious, around this time
that the term transsexual itself was popularized. So that means
that the reasons why we have those terms is because
of those early recognitions of the spectrum factors that we're
talking about. Um, so let's talk about sex. What do
we mean when we're talking about sex, not in the

(04:01):
sense of sexy time sex. Sex refers to the biological
and physiological characteristics that define men and women. This includes
are internal and external sex, organs, chromosomes, hormones, etcetera. The
stuff that usually happens when an egg is fertilized. Right,

(04:22):
And so the words male and female would describe sex
categories and sex characteristics include things like menstruation, testical development,
and men tending to have more upper body strength, for instance.
So what about gender all right, if we want to
get textbook about gender, we're talking more about socially constructed roles, behaviors,

(04:44):
activities and attributes that it given society considers appropriate for
men and women. So for that reason, it's masculine and
feminine that you're used to describe gender categories, right, Like
you can still I'm biologically female, I'm a straight female
or woman, I am female, But you could describe certain

(05:07):
behaviors or clothes that I wear or things that I
say as more stereotypically masculine. So gender descriptions don't necessarily
match up to sex exactly. And so stereotypical gender characteristics
would include things like women doing more childcare and housework,

(05:27):
men being the breadwinners, men wearing pants when wearing skirts, etcetera.
But once you move even a centimeter beyond these textbook definitions,
we get into spectrum land, where actually things are not
always so neatly divided between man woman male female. So indeed,

(05:50):
what we're getting at here is that sex itself, the
biological characteristic, isn't necessarily a male female binary. It's not
just one or the other. About one in two thousand
people in the US are actually born intersex, and that
is when sex chromosomes are different from the usual x
X or x y, and they may develop ambiguous genitalia. Yes,

(06:13):
so if you hear about people who have Turner syndrome,
for instance, that is an XO combination, and then there's
kind Felter syndrome, which is people who have x x Y,
And those chromosomal differences can result in people who who
have intersex conditions um being considered sexually ambiguous in different ways,
such as having an enlarged clitterist or having a very

(06:37):
small penis um, or they may have sex organs that
appear to be somewhat male and female at the same time. Yeah,
one of the articles we read was talking to a
researcher whose daughter actually was intersex. She was, Uh, if
you looked at her, for instance, if you're superficially she

(06:58):
appears to be a woman female, but she actually they
discovered later in life that she had undescended testes in
a her neil sack, so she had you know, I mean,
so that's just an example of you know, looking female people,
you're raised female, you are you know, considered to be female,
but you might have both characteristics. And one thing that

(07:20):
we need to mention in talking about research that's gone
into intersex identity is John Money, who is in New
Zealand born psychologists and sexologists, and he was one of
the main pioneers in theories of intersex identity during his
career actually in the United States at Johns Hopkins University,

(07:41):
and within that he invented the terms gender identity and
gender role. But we should also say though that Money's
career was also overshadowed by a really controversial decision that
he made in the sex reassignment of David Reimer, who
later committed suicide. Right, And one thing that was, um,

(08:02):
that's important to note, you know, doing all this research
looking into the issues of sex and gender, gender and
particularly intersex conditions, it's way more common than one would think.
And a lot of the time you hear about these
tragic stories of a baby is born with you know,
it looks like maybe both or they can't tell. It's

(08:23):
kind of ambiguous, and so they will say, okay, well
let's just you know, do a surgery raise this child
as female. And then the child grows up and well
she's more male actually, And so you know, tragic stories
like that. And so we have Germany actually who is
in the news. And in November, Germany will actually become

(08:46):
the first European Union nation to legally recognize a third
gender in the cases of babies born with ambiguous genitalia
and countries Australia and Nepal already offer that option. Yeah,
I mean because in the case of those babies, there's
the clinical thinking, commonly that the best thing is to

(09:08):
assign that baby either a male or female identity so
that it can then grow into that. But if surgery
is involved in that, you know, as you've talked about,
that can be so damaging, right. And one of the
articles we were looking at on this, one of the commenters,
I know you're never supposed to read the comments, but

(09:30):
one of the commenters was saying, like, this is terrible.
You shouldn't allow parents to pick a third gender because
kids need stability. And my thought on that is like, well,
it's an infant first of all, so it doesn't really
know what stability is yet. Um, it might not be
aware of its surroundings, and so I think that must
be scary though as a parent, that's what the issue is,

(09:51):
because it's not so much that you won't love your
child regardless. It's more of like issues of like what
do I what do I name my child? How? You know,
how how do I raise a child who I'm not
sure biologically whether he or she is male or female? Well,
and I think that, you know, that's one of the
reasons why it's important for us to learn more about intersex.

(10:15):
I mean because thinking about that one in two thousand,
that's a lot more common than people probably realize. Um.
And again, we did devote an entire episode to this,
why is it so easy to fail a gender? To us?
If you want to dig that up in the stuff
I've never told you ever expanding library, um, And if
you do want more information in the meantime, you can

(10:38):
check out the website of the Intersex Society of North America. UM,
but we've talked a lot about you know, we're talking
about gender identity, of what to assign a baby, that
kind of quandary that parents might encounter. So let's talk
about then, how the spectrum of sex then so quickly

(11:01):
intersect with the spectrum of gender, right, because there are
a lot of breakdowns as far as gender goes. We
have gender roles, which that's the way that people act,
it's what they do when they say, it's how they
express being a girl or a boy, or a man
or a woman. And a lot of times these characteristics
are shaped by society, but they do tend to vary

(11:23):
from culture to culture. Sure, because when you think about it,
what what's masculine and feminine? It is probably gonna change,
you know, if you go to different spots around the globe.
And along with that, the gender stereotypes might change, those
widely accepted judgments or biases regarding a person or group.

(11:46):
And I really liked this uh definition over I believe
it was from Planned Parenthood. It said that stereotypes about
gender can cause unequal and unfair treatment because of a
person's gender. And this is called old sexism. Right, So
when we go ahead and we make assumptions about people
based on their perceived gender and how they should be

(12:07):
treated and how we think they should act, well, so
then we have gender typing. And this is involved childhood.
This is the process by which children acquire their values, motives,
and behaviors which are viewed as appropriate for males or
females within a given culture. And it should be noted
that kids often pick quote unquote gender appropriate toys by
age three. You know, we've talked in other episodes on

(12:30):
other topics about how common it is for children to
already be assuming things about people and about their world
and their environment according to those dark gender divisions. Maybe
it's the way they're raised. But also as early as
fifteen to thirty six months, children developed gender typed patterns
of behavior and preferences. But girls actually tend to conform

(12:54):
less strictly. But that I think goes back to what
we've talked about before, where you know, it's okay for
girls to do boy things, but not okay for boys
to do girl things. Yeah, and in a bit of
an ironic twist, uh, in a lot of ways, the
feminine gender role these days at least is a lot
more fluid and for giving in a way than that
for boys and men, which would be a lot to

(13:17):
do with the nurture aspect of this discussion. Yeah, and
so from the gender typing those early childhood developments, we
grow into our own gender identity, and gender identity is
kind of a combination of all of those gender terms
so we're talking about because it relates to how we
feel about and express our gender and gender roles. We

(13:40):
expressed us in terms of clothing, behavior, and personal appearance.
And again it's a feeling that we have as early
as age two or three, although the expressive parts of
it in terms of you know, the outward trappings of
gender with clothing, piercings, tattoos, etcetera, probably emerge more I

(14:02):
would think in adolescence in later life, right, And it
is when these gender identities conflict with our biological sex
that many people identify as transgender and so trans, as
we did talk about in our trans one on one episode,
is an umbrella term that actually represents a diversity of
gender identities, expressions, and sexual orientations, and this includes to

(14:24):
people who identify as gender queer, which is um a
term that means identifying with multiple genders or no genders,
and with people who express themselves however they wish, and
it makes of masculine, feminine, and or androgynous ways. Right,
And we mentioned the term transsexual earlier. Have that emerged
at the same time in the fifties and sixties that

(14:46):
the distinction between sex and gender did, and so transsexual
is under this trans umbrella, but it's not typically a
preferred term these days transgenders, the umbrella term transsexual would
not be an umbrella term. Yeah, and Glad notes that
many transgender people prefer the term transgender to transsexual. So

(15:09):
just a just a tip out there for language use.
And you know, in terms of talking about the fluidity
of gender identity and gender roles, people who identify as
transgender may choose to transition so that they're outside matches
the way that they feel and they identify inside. Yeah,
And transitioning could include anything from changing your name to

(15:33):
wearing different clothes, to getting gender reassignment surgery um or
really whatever that person feels is appropriate in order to
better match up that gender identity with their bodies, their
biological makeup. Right, And as we've touched on in the
trans podcast. We do see trans women in many other

(15:57):
cultures who go by different names, and that does include
the third gender like we talked about, but Mexico, Pakistan, Polynesia,
all of these countries and regions do have very distinct
other gender identities. Yeah. And in June two thousand thirteen,
speaking of gender identities, Australian Nori may well Be became

(16:20):
the first person in the world recognized as gender lists
following a legal appeal. And we are seeing more and more, um,
like you talked about in Germany and Australia, Nepaul already
have this option of having more than just the male
or female box to check, which is great because it
is as we're learning more about transvisibility. For instance, Um,

(16:44):
it really is so much more common than we might
think for the binary to really not fit a lot
of people. And that's why we talk a lot about
the spectrum because a lot of this, Yeah, I mean,
it does exist on a spectrum. I mean even talking
about I think, for um, some people that the idea
of biological sex being more on a spectrum might be

(17:08):
a little more difficult to conceptualize than something like gender,
which is so much more Talking about culture, and nurture
and society. Um, but even for that, I mean Judith
Butler for instance, and some other people have said that,
you know, maybe in a way like the two are
not all that different in terms of being constructs. I mean,

(17:31):
obviously there's biology that goes into you know, sperm fertilizing
eggs and chromosomes and all of that. But what happens
when those biological mechanisms take place isn't always just oh
xx or x y and there you go, right, And
I think I think that's one of the great aspects

(17:53):
of having these movements, these basically civil rights movements, you know,
movements for visibility and acceptance not only among the gay
community but among the trance community, because you're getting more
people talking about it and people are thinking, and especially
you know, not sound like an old fogy, but thanks
to the Internet. Along of the Internet, you know, more

(18:16):
people are able to connect to people like them and
realize that they are not alone. And so, you know,
you might have grown up and felt I'm the only
one who feels like this, this is I am so weird,
or as a parent, you might think, oh my god,
no one has ever been through what I'm going through.
But now with these movements progressing and more people talking
about it and these communities gaining more acceptance, I think

(18:38):
that it's a hugely positive step socially, mentally, emotionally for
everyone involved, but also just to get maybe more research
out there, you know, to to broaden our understanding of
what sex and gender mean. Yeah, and I think we
are seeing that in academia. I know that there have
been a lot of journals that have popped up in
more recent years focusing on the l g B t

(19:01):
Q community and how specific like health issues affect them. Um,
but yeah, I mean there's always more is needed. And
now we've reached a point of talking about well, sexual orientation, Okay,
what about that? Even though I feel like sexual orientation
often gets the most press out of all of the

(19:23):
fastest of this conversation, in a way, sexual orientation to
me is the simplest of all because it's just oh, well,
it's it's who you're attracted to. Yeah. It does kind
of just boil down to, yeah, exactly who you're attracted to,
you know, are you gay, straight, bisexual? We do have
issues that we haven't touched on yet of being pan
sexual attracted to just about everybody. Yeah, I mean all

(19:46):
basically with pan sexuality, gender identity is sort of a
moot point because it's almost like you don't see gender identity.
And then there is the issue of being just questioning,
so kind of like sexual orientation agnostic. Yeah, and then
finally it's sort of the flip side of all this,

(20:07):
there's a sexuality talk about a group of people who
have really found a lot of community um on the internet.
It's with a sexuality that there's been a lot more
visibility that's come out, um just from people finding each
other online. And these are people who don't experience sexual
attraction at all. And even within a sexuality there is

(20:28):
a spectrum there of the kinds of relationships that they
do seek out. And again, we have done an episode
a while back on a sexuality, and I believe I
wrote an article for how sufwork dot com called how
a sexuality works if you'd like to learn more about that,
And that's sort of it in a way. With sexual orientation,

(20:50):
it seems so oversimplified. Now after we're talking about all
of the nuances of sex and gender and then coming
down to well and then you're attracted to people, and
then sometimes you you know, I want to have sex
with certain people, and then sometimes you really fall in
love and and then sometimes you have both. Yeah, I
mean this this was definitely interesting to look at because

(21:13):
or to dive deeper into anyway. I mean, we've talked
about all sorts of aspects of sex and gender on
the podcast before, but really looking at how biology plays
into things, but also how you're raised, you know, like
the roles that you think you should be in versus
the roles that you feel like you are in and
also those innate feelings. I mean, when you think about

(21:36):
gender identity in kids and how from those very early
ages you have kids who with almost no prompting whatsoever,
just say, you know what, I'm not a boy or
I'm not a girl, and it's almost inborn in them.
So they're all these different factors. And I hope that
this has been a helpful primer for listeners, and it's

(21:58):
also a good refresher for us because we're always talking
about gender differences and sex differences, and you know, it's
a good way to make sure that we're keeping all
of those kinds of things straight as well. Straight kind
of a pun there, Yeah, So we would love to
hear from you listeners, UM, whether you have life experiences

(22:21):
you want to share with us, stories you want to
share UM, or just want to you know, give your
fellow listeners maybe resources where they can learn more. It
would be great to hear from you. Yeah, Mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters,
and you can also hit us up on Facebook or
tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. And we've got a

(22:42):
couple of letters to share with you when we come
right back from a quick break and now back to
some letters. Alightis so, I have a letter here from Laura,
who says that she listens while working. She corrects and
implements spatial analysis of air imagery naturally. Okay, um, Laura

(23:05):
says your recent podcast on forgetfulness was wonderful. I regularly
find myself frustrated with my husband because he forgets things
like grocery items or dinner dates with friends. Your info
helped me realize because I'm the food prepare and party
planner in the relationship, those details are very important to me.
My partner, however, is an avid cyclist and has a

(23:25):
spectacular memory resolution when it comes to all things bikes, parts,
and things that I have very little memory for. I
feel detail memories more related to the things that are
important to the individual. I think she has a point,
you know, Yeah, I agree, I mean there is Even
though we often joke about selective memory, there is a
certain truth to that. Sure. If if you have emotions

(23:47):
or you know, life preferences tied up in something, then
you'll remember it better. So I have a letter here
from a listener who I think would prefer to remain anonymous,
and it's in response to our episode on infertility and age.
I think that you have so far underplayed the role
of the male partner in infertility because many women assumed

(24:10):
that fertility is a woman's issue and that the husband
or father will have healthy sperm well into old age.
They assume the burden of infertility treatments sometimes to know
avail because they are not looking at the whole problem.
About thirty percent of infertility and couples have to do
with male factors. Male infertility can mean inadequate sperm counts,
an adequate number of healthy sperms, sluggage and maliform sperm, etcetera.

(24:31):
Male factors can be minor or severe, and sometimes both
male and female factors can contribute to a couple's infertility.
I went through about eight months of infertility treatments before
my partner finally agreed to do with Seaman analysis. He
was very resistant to testing his sperm on the assumption
that he was a healthy male with what appeared to
be perfectly normal and copious ejaculate. It turned out that

(24:52):
his fertility issues were not just a serious as mind,
and with the combination of both male and female factors,
it was virtually impossible for us to get pregnant good
old fashioned way. Happily, with very good medical treatment, we
were able to overcome these and are now the proud
parents of a baby girl. Nevertheless, the infertility journey was
long and hard fought. It took about four years all told.

(25:13):
We would have saved a lot of time and grief
if we had accepted the role of male factors and
infertility from the get go. So if you have thoughts
to send our way, you can email us. Mom Stuff
Discovery dot Com is our address. You can also find
us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast. We're also on Instagram at stuff mom Never

(25:34):
Told You, And as always, you can check out our
videos as well, YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never
told you is where you can go and don't forget
to subscribe. Moreens at the task works dot com