Coming out at work

Should you come out as LGBTQ at work? It's not as simple as you might think.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to stuff Mom
never told you. Today we are tackling a question that
I found a little surprising through the research in preparation

(00:28):
for today. As someone who works a lot with folks
uh in the professional development sphere, I always am a
big proponent of saying that you know, work, love and
wellness are connected, that we can't be our authentic selves
unless we bring our full self to the workplace. But
I was actually really reminded of some of my straits

(00:51):
is gender privilege and blind spots on this issue when
I was actually talking with a former boss up boot camp.
Alum wrote a great piece on our blog about whether
to come out at work, whether to you know, if
you identify as l g b t Q, to bring
that full part of who you are to the workplace,

(01:14):
and she wrote a great piece for our website on
it that really inspired today's conversation because I I did
a little bit of surgery. I said, should you come
out at work? Isn't it's two? Of course this should
be a non issue, And boy was I wrong. President
Obama before he left office, he signed in to law
some workplace protections for LGBTQ folks, and that was great. Uh,

(01:36):
but like a second yeah, and then one of the
first moves that Trump made um as president mec and March,
was to resend that. And so currently there are not
um those kinds of protections for LGBTQ folks making it
so that they don't get fired at work for who
they are. Yeah, which blew my mind. I thought, and
this is so ignorant of me in retrospect, but I thought,

(02:00):
especially with the federal passage of marriage equality in our country,
that the protections in that domain would be indicative of
the other equality type protections we have for LGBT, gay,
lesbian people's right to exist without discrimination. And as it

(02:21):
turns out, it is still very much legal as of
March to be fired in twenty eight states in the
United States of America just for being gay, just for
your sexuality, right, And that's more than half the states
in the US. And that's that's staggering. And I think
it's easy. You know, I was a big obviously a

(02:43):
big proponent of marriage quality, but I think it was
very easy to have that issue be the juggernaut issue
that that seemed to be facing um LGBTQ folks. And
I think that you know, it was easy, this would
be like, oh, glad, that's done, and move up of
away from issues that are still based in the community
in very real ways. And that's why I think today's

(03:05):
episode is so important to just draw attention to we
cannot forget those who live at those intersections, and we
cannot forget about our LGBT brothers and sisters and and
be good allies in the continued and essential fight for
equality for LGBTQ Americans. So let's let's talk about some
of what has been written beautifully in many different publications

(03:29):
UM about the benefits of coming out at work, and
clearly the drawbacks which we've already alluded to, UM, which
really could be easily eliminated with the swipe of should
be obviously UM. But it's complicated. So we'll we'll come
back to that story, because the fight for equality when

(03:50):
it comes to workplace discrimination goes on, and it's very
much hanging in the balance right now. UM. But first
I wanted to acknowledge UH, some of the very clear
UM benefits for coming out at work, and I found
this interesting. This is a piece that I initially had

(04:12):
this visual reaction to um by Megan Evans in the
Huffing and post why coming out at work is vital
for you and your employer. And at first I was like, wait,
did you know that you can't force people to feel
like they're hiding something or that it's vital to come
out at work because it can be a serious employment liability. Yeah.
I mean, I I want to be clear with this episode,

(04:33):
but I am not suggesting that people come out or
not come out. I think that it's important to just
get a lay of the land of the situation and
sort of the pluses and minuses and all of that.
I'm we are not saying one or the other. We're
saying make the right choice for you. But what I
realized through reading this long laundry list of the benefits
of coming out that this loud she identifies as a

(04:55):
loud and proud lesbian um as she's writing, came to
realize I understand her perspective because she's writing from the
United Kingdom, where passage of the Equality Act made this
kind of discrimination illegal. It wasn't not issue. Yeah, so
that privilege abuse this article, um, But I mean, I

(05:16):
thought she made some really excellent points, uh, including one
you'll lead a more fulfilling life because you won't have
to feel like you're living a life of shame or
silence or secrecy, hiding who you are from your colleagues.
There's an argument from that has been well established that
you might actually be more productive at work. Outstanding, which

(05:39):
is an advocacy organization UM Capital o U T Outstanding
found that found that eighty five percent of those UM
who answered that their closeted at work found that they
were wasting quote too much energy pretending that their heterosexual Furthermore,
sixty one percent said that they subsequently they do not

(06:02):
work as hard for their company. I think that's fascinating
because it's this idea that we need to be able
to show up as our authentic selves at work, and
that you know, I can imagine that if you feel
like you're not showing up as yourself, it's easy to
feel not like not engaged or not sort of like
they have not invested in who I really am? Why
should I invest in them in that way? So they're

(06:23):
not letting you be your true self? So why so
they don't get your full self? Yes? Exactly makes me
think of all the research, all the resources being poured
into engagement at work, employee engagement, because that's where the
sort of crux of productivity really lay. And if you
can't feel respected, and if you don't feel your workplace
is a tolerant climate, you're not gonna You're gonna feel

(06:44):
deprived and you're gonna, according to Daniel Pink's amazing research
and his book Drive, you'll feel more able to justify
stealing all the post it notes. You know what I mean,
or they don't. They don't respect me, so I'm not
going to respect them, and so I'm going to justify
morally questionable behavior and in sort of um subversive behavior

(07:05):
as an employee who doesn't feel like I can show
up and be myself totally. And I felt this way
sadly in different workplace situations where you feel like you
are not able to be yourself and wearing a mask
all day is really unpleasant, and so you know you're
in a like you it's bad to feel as if
you can't wait to get out of the office so
you can be your real self. Everyone feels that to

(07:27):
feel like you are pretending to be someone else all day.
By the time the clock strikes five, you're probably like Sea,
this has been exhausting and emotionally taxing and I need to,
you know, get out of here. Stands me. We want
to be understood in respect for who we actually are exact,
and sexuality is such a big part of that, you
know what I mean. So Marty Chavez, who was Goldman

(07:47):
Sachs is ce Io said quote, gay people are happier, healthier,
and more productive if they feel they can bring their
whole selves to work. So there, I mean, we don't
want to and I think Bridges made this made this
clear already. Megan makes it clear in her great article
in The Heavening Post. We don't want to say, like,
here's all the good reasons you'll feel better, just come

(08:07):
out and be you and be loud and be proud,
as though there's not a ton of privilege that goes
into making that kind of a big decision, but it
certainly sounds like the benefits of coming out writ large
in your in your life would trickle over as well
into the professional space. We want to create tolerant cultures

(08:27):
and work cultures where all people feel like they can
bring their true selves to the workplace. Definitely, I think
that's so true. Just in general for everybody. Everybody. Everybody
wants to feel good about when they when they go
into work. And one of the things I found very
you know, kind of easy to get behind in reading
about the benefits of coming out at work. What's this
idea that you can be a role model to others?

(08:49):
And I think that that is something that's easy to overlook,
but that you know, when you see someone who is
out and proud and being there being themselves, you never
know who who seeing that and who you're inspiring and
who you are giving courage to live their truth. Yeah, exactly.
And obviously we shouldn't put the responsibility of you know,

(09:09):
moving the social justice movement forward on this issue on
gay people. Absolutely, but there's an element here, which is,
you know, being yourself can inspire others to do the same,
and it can inspire those who don't identify as an
lgbt Q to be more tolerant and less ignorant. Straight
folks and CIS folks. There's a there's a role. This

(09:33):
isn't just this isn't on the backs of of you know,
the marginalized. It can't be right. Everybody has a role
in getting us where we need to be on this
issue right, however, to address some of the drawbacks, because
there are many, and there there are real concerns to
be considered if you have navigated this question in your
own life. Only nineteen states and Washington, d C. Shout

(09:57):
out to the district have path laws preventing LGBT Americans
from being discriminated against by employers, but three others protect
employees on the basis of sexual orientation but not gender identity,
so they leave out our transgender Americans. So what, yeah,
I mean that just sends to me like one of

(10:17):
those cases where the law has not kept up with
what our society actually looks like. Because our our country
and our work and by extension, our workforce is diverse.
We write, you know, occupy many places on the gender spectrum.
We occupy you know, different sexual orientations, and our laws
do not seem to have kept you come up with
that can't pace for sure. And in more than one

(10:40):
in five LGBT Americans told the Pew Research researchers that
they've been mistreated by an employer because of their sexual
orientation or gender identity. So mistreated here is obviously kind
of a vague term, but it's a good reminder that
the overt kind of discrimination, like being legally fired for
being out, is one kind of discrimination, but the the

(11:03):
less overt um it's just as significant because you can
it can mean less work satisfaction, less respect, you know,
microaggressions being levied your way. That can take a toll
psychologically as well as professionally and economically. And it's you know,
these things really do add up. And someone once described
to microaggressions as sort of someone shipping away at you

(11:24):
bit by bit, and that's just no way to exist
in a workplace where you go every day exactly. In fact,
you know, I found this a little bit scary to
think in my liberal bubble that is the city. Um
but research has found that a third of Americans are
uncomfortable with lgbt Q colleagues in the office. So according

(11:50):
to GLAD, to the non l g b t Q
respondents of their survey, they asked on a scale of
like one to ten, how uncomfortable they feel working next
to quote people who are exploring or questioning their sexual orientation,
and people reported feeling very or somewhat uncomfortable. See that
strikes me again in my in my liberal bubble that

(12:11):
strikes me as a huge number. But then again, I
mean I I have Southern roots, and I can imagine,
you know, it's not difficult to imagine who these folks
are and what their lives are like that they are,
you know, reporting it there are uncomfortable with their you know,
it's a gay coworker. Yeah, I mean, it's it's another
it's another nous. And I think in a society where

(12:35):
you know, we just it's Pride month here in d C.
We just saw the Pride parade, you know, in it.
So we've got this whole city is up in rainbow streamers,
and we're talking about these statistics that just go to
show you and remind you that not every city and
not every town looks like Washington, d C. This month.
And that level of foreignness or otherness, of not knowing

(12:58):
or not being comfortable with another person who's different from
you in some way can create this discomfort. And it
does make sense. But but the ramifications are real. Here.
We've got we've got a lawsuit will come back to,
but I want to mention briefly here Kimberly Hive final
lawsuit against her community college that she believes fired over

(13:18):
being a lesbian. Matthew Christiansen a gay man suit his
employer of Omnicom after the chief digital officer allegedly called
him a bottom and drew pictures of him as a
half horse and harassed him for being for his sexuality.
Last year, u c l A. S. Williams Institute found

(13:39):
that twenty of LGBTQ people report being discriminated against during
an interview. So there are I mean, you know, what
is the drawback prejudice bias, like deep seated. It's not
reflected in pop culture discomfort around LGBT Americans, which surprised

(14:00):
in the era of Glee, you know what I mean,
in the era of uh, what's that drag race RuPaul's like,
we are still we have a lot, I mean, and
this is something that I say a lot. And I
know I've referenced to marriage quality earlier, but this is
a battle ground. And I think that it's easy to
imagine that, you know, once we got marriage quality, things

(14:20):
were you know, tidy, But it's still a battleground, right, Like,
look at the statistics around trans youth who are homeless,
Like people are fighting for their lives, and I think
I was a little bit salty, even as someone who
was a huge proponent of marriage quality obviously that it
seems like once we hit that milestone people it was
easy to lose interest. And so many getting married is

(14:42):
a beautiful thing, and it is a it's I almost sore,
but it is a right. Fight for that right, right
for that right, for sure. But don't forget that people
are out here and losing their livelihoods, people out here
getting attached, like the numbers around trans women of color
who are murdered, and like their murders just go unsolved
like it's nothing. Unreally, we have such a long way

(15:02):
to go when it comes to fighting for that people
in this country who are LGBTQ and this human rights
and they're just they're just ability to just exist and
you know, provide for themselves and their families and just
have have basically just their humanity right. And I will
I'll be the first to admit that I it fell
out of my purview with the sentence of Donald Trump somehow.

(15:26):
It just like I really was surprised in doing this
research of how how much of a huge rollback the administration,
the new administration has been for gay Americans. And how
basic workplace protections are not in place where like, who
would come out in this climate at work? This seems
insanely risky and dangerous to me. But um, there is

(15:50):
a lawsuit in the works, and we're going to talk
about that and what that means, what the ramifications could
mean around how we might be able to move this
political ball for word. After a quick break and we're
back and we're fired up because this world is not

(16:14):
treating LGBTQ Americans fairly. And I think it's a really
really important consideration for those of whom are considering coming
out at work. Should you come out of work? Should
you not? Is this something you've dealt with? We absolutely
want to hear from you. But first, a wonky update,
A wonky update, This is like update coming. There was

(16:35):
a bulletin. So we were just talking off air about
how when Trump got elected, it was kind of easy
to sort of kind of get lost on this issue
in terms of LGBTQ Americans and where they're at in
terms of having their rights taken away or being left
to live their lives. And I think that it's it's
important to point out that this is by design, but
the Trump administration. Early on in January, the administration said

(16:58):
that they were not going to mess with the Bama
era protections around LGBTQ folks in the workplace. And they
were like, no, nope, we're not gonna mess with it.
We're gonna just let it be. And people were like, okay. Well,
and this was back in January, so it sort of
seemed to be set. Yes, it seemed to be setting
the tone for you know, perhaps this would be an
issue that he, you know, his administration would not be
terrible on. But then they changed their tune in March,

(17:21):
and when they signed the order resending Obama's workplace protections
for lgbt LGBTQ, l g b t Q Americans, it's
un mouthful. Uh, they did so kind of covertly. Now,
this is an administration that loves a fanfare. He loves,
you know, a dramatic signing, and so I think that
it's important to note that it is it's tough to

(17:42):
know where we are on that forefront. Right Like just
maybe like last month, the administration tease this religious Liberty
executive Order that then turned out to be sort of
nothing like they said it was gonna be. So this
is an administration that is I think hell bent on
folks like you and I being a little confused on
where they stand on these issues. Yeah, and it's so well,

(18:03):
I feel somewhat less bad than for totally missing and
I don't feel bad and thank you for that, but
I couldn't feel more. Um like, this is a more
important topic then for all of us to stay stay
woke on, especially feminist. I think this is a perfect
example of intersectionality where gay women, lesbian women get missed

(18:24):
at that march and very often, and that's that's not okay.
So we've got executive orders to keep our eye on,
which included, by the way, when he when Donald Trump
rescinded workplace protections for Americans that the Obama administration had
put in place, he also rescinded protections for lgbt Q

(18:44):
youth to access bathrooms without gender conforming labels. On that,
I ain't to me, I mean, not to get on
my my soapbox. But if you get on that soap
if you a trans middle school student, like, why is
the president picking on you? Like you? You are already marginalized,
right if you're first of all, if you're in middle

(19:05):
school you're just a kid like and I think that,
you know, it's easy to sort of paint this issue as, oh,
it's just bathrooms, who cares? But it is the ability
to just be yourself. This is the ability to live
and just be left alone and not have to feel
like you're living in fear or that, you know, whatever,
is just. And that was one of the first things
he did in office, was making you know, in my mind,
like passing legislation or resending legislation the protect sort of

(19:28):
the most marginalized among us. Now, aside from what the
administration has been doing, Bridget, this is also very much
a legal battle that's being waged in district courts across
the United States. And I'm sure all of our attorney
listeners will be able to correct the exact verbags that
I'm using here, But you know, local courts, not the

(19:48):
Supreme Court, although it is very much rumored that this
is going to be an issue taken up by the
Supreme Court soon, so TB d um. But the court
system is where this battle is waging and has made
some recent news as of April. Right, So, in April seventeen,
the Chicago Court ruled that the Civil Rights Act of

(20:12):
what nineteen sixty five, I feel like it's a Civil
Rights Act of nineteen sixty seven sixty four. Okay, First
of one, the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four,
um should expand to include sexual orientation, because as of
now it says you can't discriminate against people based on race, class, gender, sex,

(20:34):
but sex initially imbute gender, and now this Chicago court
ruled that it extends to sexual orientation. And just like
we were talking about earlier in the show, I think
this is a case of our the way that our
laws are written and framed, not keeping up with what
our society actually looks like. Right, we have a diverse workforce.

(20:56):
And I'm not saying there weren't LGBTQ folks, you know
these are certainly certainly certainly were were. But this understanding
of sextius meeting gender and not kind of encapsulating what
it means in terms of sexual identity or gender expression
in any of that, I think feels like a throwback
in a way that our laws have just not kept
up with our shifting work force. And I think this
is always that's always true. The laws on the books

(21:19):
are always catching up to society and culture. But they
also inform one another in terms of concrete protections that
currently not all Americans receive. So let's let's dig into
this lawsuit. So, as of April in Chicago, the case
that stemmed from Kimberly Hively versus Ivy Tech Community College,

(21:39):
which we mentioned earlier, very briefly, she she stued based
on being fired for what she felt was her sexual
identity or sexual orientation rather, And The New York Times
covered this development because that's where in this Chicago Chicago
court rule that the Civil Rights Act should include and

(22:02):
does apply to include sexual orientation. So the New York
Times reads up the decision by the United States Court
of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, the highest federal court
yet to grant such employee protections, raises the chances that
the politically charged issue may ultimately be resolved by the
Supreme Court. And while an appeal is not expected in

(22:24):
this case, the one in Chicago, another appellate court in
Georgia last month they're talking about February now reached the
opposite conclusion, saying that the civil rights law, the Civil
Rights Act, that law does not prohibit um discrimination at work.
For gay employees. So it's sort of like a double
negative there. But what they're saying is in Georgia they said, hey,

(22:46):
you can be fired for being gay. This law doesn't
protect you. But this appeal or not this appeal, this
this Chicago Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit says
that this right absolutely does apply and protecting LGBTQ Americans
at work. Right. It's a little confusing, but something that
I want to pull from that is the idea that
we were talking about a little earlier that these issues

(23:08):
are sort of settled or you don't have to worry
about them anymore. You know, we've moved on past that,
ya equality, we did it, when in fact, this is
a issue that's influx and it's very much you know,
there are current updates on it, there are, it's a
shifting changing things. So certainly it's something to still be
caring about, be worrying about, and be thinking about. Yeah,
and HRC's blog has been monitoring the status, but we

(23:30):
haven't really seen much national news since the April decision
in Chicago, so people are waiting to see will there
be an appeal, will this be taken up by the
Supreme Court. And what's interesting is, um, the part is
in nature of this decision. So what's fascinating is here
in the Chicago decision they concluded. This is from the

(23:52):
New York Times. They concluded that such discrimination was no
different from a form of sex discrimination, which the law prohibits.
Five of the eight judges in the majority were appointed
by Republican presidents. So it's really it's it's the devils
in the details when it comes to legal scholarship here
like this is that the right scholar, It's like the

(24:14):
actual study of the law, does this apply? But what's
interesting is that judges across the country are differing Chicago
versus Georgia. But the Chicago Court is a higher court.
So you know, do if this does get taken up
by the Supreme Court to make a clear and conclusive ruling,
you know, I think that would be very good, right, Um,
I think it would be good. But I also think

(24:36):
this is why and I hate to go back to that,
and I feel like I go back to it every
day in my mind. Unfortunately. But you know, when people
but I knew people who were like, oh, it doesn't matter.
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were the same and It's like, actually,
who think about the Supreme Court? Think about who the
groups of people who are making these kinds of rulings
that impact the lives of everyday folks. That doesn't matter

(24:58):
to you, then, okay, but it does matter to a
lot of people. Right. So Donald Trump did fill that seat.
He did, and I was like, one of the first
things we've talked about. And what's not maddening is that,
you know, before Obama left office, he wanted it to
be Garland, and Republicans dragged their feet and then I
mean it completely left that seat vacant on the Supreme

(25:20):
Court for months, for a very long time, which is
absurd to me. You know, do your job, hashtag do
your job. But yeah, and so I think that's why
these kinds of things are so important. It matters who's
on the Supreme Court. If if yes, and it's scary
to think about what would happen. I mean, I think
it would be good for the Supreme Court to rule

(25:40):
on this once and for all. But what's the likelihood
that they're going to reach the same conclusion that they
reached in Chicago. We don't really know. And you know,
employment law differs explicitly here from public opinion, which I
thought was a really interesting uh point in Fast Companies
coverage of this, in which they said, one reason why

(26:02):
so much of this remains unsettled is because Title seven
of the Civil Rights Act, which was passed in nineteen
sixty four and bars discrimination on the basis of quote race, color, religion, sex,
or national origin end quote, doesn't offer explicit protections for
gender identity or sexual orientation. So it's really just in
the last half century of case law that this Act's

(26:24):
provision has been interpreted as applying to LGBT Americans and
then in very limited ways. UM. So, yeah, it's concerning.
And what's interesting is that, um, even if they do
rule that it applies that the egal Rights Act applies

(26:44):
to LGBTQ Americans, protects trans rights based on gender identity,
and protects gay people's rights based on sexual orientation, the
non discrimination protections actually only apply to employers of at
least fifteen people, and as the eo C the Equal
Employment Opportunity Commission rights on their website, quote, figuring out

(27:05):
whether or not an employer is covered can be complicated.
So it's the fifteen employee threshold because as at a minimum,
but then again that even can vary, quote depending on
the type of employer, for example, whether the employers a
private company, a state or local government agency, a federal
agency and employment agency, or a labor union, and the
kind of discrimination that's been alleged. So beyond the fifteen

(27:29):
person threshold, the tax status of who you're working for,
and beyond that those two things, you also need to
have worked for your company for at least twenty weeks
before finding a complaint with the e o C. So
this is hope so to me, because like, why are
we making this so complicated? It doesn't matter who you are,
how you present, You've got to be able to make
a live looking for yourself and your family. It doesn't

(27:49):
make any sense to me at all. Why you know,
we're making it hard to just do that. While because
businesses don't want to be sued, they don't want to
get to court. They want to hire and fire whoever
they want, which is part of the reason the gig
economy is so big. Contract employees don't have any of
these rights, so it's way easier to discriminate based on contract.
Employers are at will employment you can fire without cause,

(28:11):
So I think workers rights at large have just been
eroded like continuously over the past century. The lack of application,
frankly that labor unions have to our generation in particular,
is very concerning to me. Well what I mean, I
wouldn't even just say they're eroding. I would say they're eroding.
And it's and the erosion of labor protections is being

(28:32):
sold back to us as a good thing. It can
be fired for no reason, enjoy be your own freedom. Ring. Yeah,
it's disturbing. And but then it goes back to the
questions we were asking in the Gig Economy episode of loyalty.
Do employees feel a sense of loyalty anymore? Do employers?

(28:52):
And if so, you know, the price of loyalty is
potential litigation. So it's messed up. We're all paying, like
so many companies I know are paying lots of money
for engagement consulting and for people who know how to
retain and develop talent wink. They're paying me to do
that sometimes. And you know, there's a very vested interest

(29:14):
in the business community and learning how to retain our generation.
And part of me wants to be like, remember, labor
unions read their playbook like, maybe, you know, maybe give
us some more protections and give them equally. And just
as a side note, even if you are like a
freelancer a contract employee, oftentimes there are unions you can join.
I was in the freelancers in for a long time

(29:35):
even though I was a freelancer and work for myself.
So one, I think that's a really really good point.
And one other wonky component here that I think is
important to mention. And y'all, we don't want to like
totally bore you with the legally is behind this, because
there's a lot of it, and I'm sure we can
continue this conversation on our Twitter feed, but um, I
think it's important to mention, and this was straight off

(29:57):
the HRC blog, that there is a congressional piece of
legislation that would also solve this. So we've got the
Trump administration walk update covered, we got the Supreme Court
potentially getting involved here. But Member Congress sometimes, yeah, sometimes
they're good for something, and they could also solve this

(30:18):
problem if the Majority leader off Speaker Paul Ryan gave
a gave any kind of what can I say here?
Maybe he cared at all about this, which he clearly
has has made very clearly, after dodging question after question
about whether they're going to bring this up, that he
does not make this a priority. However, HRC's blog writes
that the overwhelming majority of Americans support full federal equality

(30:41):
for LGBTQ people. Polling released last year by the nonpartisan
Public Religion Research Institute p r r I found that
support for a bill like the Equality Act, which is
the legislation that was just reintroduced, I think from um
from a from a bipartistans standpoint, but it isn't going
to be taken up for a vote unfortunately, found that

(31:04):
support for a bill like the Equality Act topped seventy
percent nationally, including a majority of Democrats, Republicans, and independence.
So this the groundbreaking survey included forty two thousand interviews
in fifty states and found majority support for the Equality
Act in all fifty states. Wow. I mean, it's unfathomable
to me that when you have such a ground swallow

(31:24):
public support that that that acts like that and bills
like that in legislation like that is just sitting there,
you know, and not getting past and not going to
be voted on. Probably, So when asked when they asked, um,
Paul Ryan, are we going to vote on the Equality Act?
He just had continuously dodged the question, just a d
C way of saying no. Yeah. It's like when you

(31:44):
ask your mom, um, can we do blah blah blah,
and she's like, we'll see talk about it when we
get home. Yeah. Um, I I do want to give
credit where credit is due, even though Paul Ryan is
not on that list right now. But the status of
this bill, the Equality Act, that Congress could pass and
make this a non issue and put it on the

(32:06):
book once and for all was as was just updated
in May second on the HRC dot org website was
introduced by Rep. David Cicillini, my old congressman from Rhode Island,
the former mayor of Providence, total awesome congressman who had
the pleasure of working with. It was introduced in the
House by David Ceillini and in the Senate by Senator

(32:28):
Jeff Merkley from a client of mine who from Oregon,
as well Um and Tammy Baldwin and Corey Booker. So
that was put forth in early May. So May two,
it was introduced with two hundred and forty one original
co sponsors the most Congressional support for any piece of
pro lgbt Q legislation has that has ever been received

(32:48):
upon introduction. So Congress Paul Ryan, get on it. Yeah,
do this thing, like, come on, put it to rest.
It would expand the rights and make explicit that the
Civil Rights Act does in fact apply. And I think,
you know, um, if you kept up at all with
the legislation out of North Carolina, the so called bathroom
build stuff. But I thought it was interesting about those

(33:10):
conversations or that they often were framed around business that like,
businesses need to be able to attract talent, and if
your workforce is you know, diverse, as is the you
know country is very diverse, you might not have an
easy time getting folks to move to North Carolina to
take a job in your company. If the state is like, oh,
we're gonna make it so that you don't have these protections,

(33:32):
can't live your life, make your life really hard. Businesses
don't like that. And I think that for a party
that is always so explicitly like we're pro business, we
love jobs, blah blah blah. If that's true, how is
this protecting employers? How is it protecting businesses, How is
it making anyone's life better? And if you really give
a crap about that, like, show us pass legislation that

(33:53):
protects employers, if you love workers and jobs and all
of that so much like you say you do, show us.
I I'm nodding so vigorously. My head is about to
fall off. Let's take a quick break and when we
come back, we're gonna take a break from walking walking
through our walk bulletin and get back to the personal
question that it all boils down to. What are the

(34:15):
questions you should ask yourself? What are the considerations to
keep in mind when you are personally weighing the decision
of coming out at work or not. We'll be right
back after a quick break, and we're back and we
want to unpack the rest of this very sensitive question

(34:37):
that I again want to shout out to our bossed
Up boot Camp alum who wrote the blog post on
bost up dot org that originally inspired this episode. Allison,
You've got to check it out. It's called Navigating lgbt
Q Rights at Work. And you know, she really originally
got us thinking about this, and I've come to realize
it's a way harder, very personal question then just a

(35:02):
simple yes or now and bridge and I we you know,
we want to make very clear that we're not saying
you should or should not come out at work. This
is not a one size fits all, blanket advice kind
of topic. And so that would be not good advice.
I would go under the episode of bad career advice.
It's out there that we have to do sometime. But yeah,
if you're thinking about whether or not to come out

(35:24):
at work, um, a few things to think about are
one probably the most important in my mind, is do
your homework right, like know what the what the what
the situation is at your at your place of business
or your place of work, um, you know in your state,
know where you're at, just so that you when you're
when you make this choice, you're making it fully aware

(35:45):
of like the circumstances of this of what that choice means.
And there's a difference between implicit perceived acceptance and explicit
rights on the books. You know what your rights are
on the books, and it can be hard you know
or not. Nobody wants to read up on the law
and your state, like page by page and the legislature,
even are elected officials don't like to do that, um

(36:06):
but HRC's Corporate Equality Index has made it really easy
to look up your company, and the Diversity Inc. Top
fifty Companies for Diversity list has also made it and
that's at Diversity inc. Dot Com made it a little
easier for you to search and see where you're corporation
if you do work for a large corporation falls when

(36:28):
it comes to their commitment to diversity, and it bases
those scores directly on actions taken in the company to
promote inclusion inequality, and HRCs list even docs points for
businesses with recent anti LGBTQ blemishes on their records, so
it's not just a puff piece. It's also you know,
they hold their feet to the fire, and it's it's

(36:49):
really important. So if your company receives a high score
on that list, you're in a workplace that's at least
trying to value openness, which is helpful and just doing
your homework when it comes to no knowing what your
HR departments policies are, knowing what you're you know what
legislations on the books can be really helpful. Start. I
like how they phrase that because I think of this
a lot in terms of the diverse of inclusion in

(37:10):
diversity work, where I don't know that there are a
lot of organizations that are getting it exactly right. And
I've actually read reports of you know, um, nonprofits that
work with gay and lesbian folks being not great leaders
in that space that themselves and so you know the
old adage of you know, even in the nonprofit world,
sometimes nonprofits can be you know that the word bad

(37:32):
actors themselves and so um, I think I like the
way they phrase that, and that there's always ways that organizations,
no matter how great they are, can get better. And
so this idea of like, well it might not be
the best, but they're trying to you know that, you know,
that's a really good point. And I think there's a
good article in the muse uh called should You Come
Out at Work? And in that article when she discusses

(37:56):
the use of these equality index and she says, listen,
you know, I know what you're thinking. You're right. These
resources are more common at big name companies, including resources
like affinity groups or business resource groups that focus on
lgbt Q rights, which is another way in which you
can do your homework to see if your company even
has one of those groups. Um. So, she said, I

(38:20):
was working for a foreign government and there were no
employee resource groups or HRC index scores or anything even
anti discrimination laws for her to fall back on. So
I had to get creative, she says. Since same sex
marriage had just passed in New York and gay rights
were getting tons of press, I made it my mission
to listen to the office chatter engauge how my colleagues

(38:41):
were reacting. So sometimes you have to get covert and creative.
And again there's a difference between explicit rights on the
books and gauging your colleagues tolerance. Um. But you know,
she she spent her UM lunch breaks in the break
room without earbuds, purposefully listening in on office assip and seeing,

(39:01):
you know, when this news came on the radio or TV,
how did people react. Yeah, that's a good way to
do it if you really don't have a lot of
resources or your organization is just small and it's you know,
how would you know, um, getting creative and thinking about
ways that you can figure figure out from this information
in a covert way. Kudos to her. Um. I also
thought it was really interesting, um in that article, how

(39:23):
you can use those kinds of methods to find allies, right,
because it's super awkward to compass someone and be like, oh,
are you an ally to the LGBTQ community. You know,
that's a weird way to do it. But you can
maybe find ways of finding allies and finding your people
at work, um in some subtle ways like she did
in that article. Or look for the equal sign bumper

(39:43):
stickers right, I'm looking at one on your laptop right now,
and I had one in my office for a while
before I became a total hermit and have my home office.
But you know, just you have to weigh the risks yourself.
You have to gauge your audience, whether it's your coworkers,
your subordin, it's your team or your boss, um, And

(40:03):
it's it's up to you. Only you can weigh the
cost benefit analysis here and understand your the risks that
you face for coming out at work, UM, and also
the risks that you face psychologically, mentally, emotionally for staying
closet in, which are very real and we I think
we've already discussed those realities. But yeah, and just one
other tip I wanted to bring up is that UM,

(40:25):
I don't know if y'all read from Ask a Manager,
which is is great advice, Colum, but basically, someone who
was trans wrote in saying, you know, should I come
out in the interview, what's what's to have an obligation?
What should I do? And one of the pieces of
advice Um, they gave basically they said exactly what we said,
which is, you know, it's it's a totally personal thing.
It's up to you to weigh the benefits me and

(40:47):
the downsides, but that if you're in an interview and
you do want to raise it in your interview process,
wait until they make you an offer, and that will
make it clearer. If they pull the offer, that will
make it clearer, like why they're doing it. And she
gives us says that she gives the same advice to
pregnant folks um to not disclose their pregnancy until after
an offer is made, because if they're like, oh, um,

(41:09):
never mind, we don't need you, then it's a lot
clearer and it's a lot harder for them to discriminate
against you because I was offered. And that's exactly what
we talked about with our mommy tax I'm saying and
I ended up writing a piece on my Forbes Leadership
column saying, should you disclose your children in the interview,
And you're absolutely right, wait until you have a hard offer,
and then you know it's much harder for them to

(41:31):
rescind it without facing serious liability. Yeah, And I mean,
and that's why I think that advice is accurate. But
also it's it's like most things, it's also authority because
even before you get to that stage, I can imagine
wanting to know like is this an LGBTQ friendly workplace
or or if you're a parent, is just a working
parent friendly workplace? And it's sort of one of those

(41:52):
things where you can't really find that out early on
if you wait to disclose until you get the offer.
But it's just I hear what you're saying, but I'm
shaking my head because I think those are good considerations
that are important to you that you are in a
stronger position to evaluate after an offer comes. I guess

(42:12):
you could always win them and then and then investigate. Yes,
I think of it as like persuasive communication mode of
being in the interview, Say you get them to love you,
and that should be your number one priority and then
when you get the offer, then the negotiation begins, and
that's when you can say, you know, I want to
learn more about this, or I want to talk to
an employee, I want to hear from someone else here.

(42:35):
You know, that's when you can start making demands. And
obviously you've been doing your covert research like any good right,
you know, negotiator, so we could geek out about negotiation off.
I did get an offer letter, and I was concerned
that there was some like workplace weirdness, and so after
I got my offer, I was like, is it possible
that I would come in and talk to some of

(42:55):
the other staffers to see what it's like and you know,
doing so, Like I had the offer letter in hand,
but I was like, I just want to do some investigating,
So you can't. You can't do that. Did you do it?
Did you take the job? Did not? Oh my god,
I did the same thing. It's up here. Was it
a digital department at a labor union? It was not.
It was not. I think I know because I did

(43:15):
that and I came in and I was like, no
one is talking. It's one of those office bullpens where
everyone's there right next to each other and I hate
that and you know me, I'm allowed person. I can't
I can't be in that room, right, So I was like,
this doesn't feel like a good good uh tangent there.
So our last piece of advice, I'm looking at our
notes here. We can't even say it exactly how we

(43:38):
wrote it, but it's how to not be a jerk,
don't be injured, how to not be an ignorant idiot
in the office. And you know we were when we
were talking about how to find out if your colleagues
are tolerant enough. Think about what you are saying about
around the water cooler when it comes to LGBT people,

(43:58):
writes news. Have you imagine the colleague who's sitting next
to you is a closeted person who's listening and to
see if this is a safe space where she can
come out? You know, are you being considerate of sensitive
to which is not an ignorant jerk to LGBT folks
in everyday speech, you know, without knowing whether or not

(44:19):
there is a gay person in the room. Totally And
I always this is my like catch all advice for
all for most situations. You always have the option of
not saying anything you don't know what to say, or
you like, you always have the option of not don't
make it if you're not sure, don't make that joke,
if you're not sure, if this is offensive or not,
you don't have to say it, right. You can always

(44:41):
just say nothing. People don't exercise that right enough. I
when thousand percent degree, I could have used that advice
more times than I care to to imagine at some point,
I think, but yeah, it's just a reminder that being
a good ally means don't be a jerk, be inclusive,
be thoughtful, be mindful of and considerate of your colleagues.

(45:04):
And that also means just to be extra explicit here
in case it's not obvious. Don't out your coworkers. That's horrible.
I've I've like, I have seen people out others, and
I think this is like a whole other episode. But
you know, when it's I think there's never an excuse
for it. I heard, I've heard people that I respect
make all kinds of excuses for it. None of them

(45:27):
fly in my book. Oh, I thought you were already
out with everyone. I thought, you know, you just told me,
But I thought everybody knew don't you already or the worst,
I'm doing you a favor, I'm helping you, Like, oh
my god, it's awful, Like it's such a fraud personal
individual thing. So maybe don't. Don't maybe just maybe just
don't use your privilege. If you are says or straight, um,

(45:49):
you know, use your privilege in that regard to call
out micro aggressions when you see them happening to folks
in the office. When you see someone using a slanderous
word to describe gay people, call them out, like, be
the one to step up and say something and say,
that's not cool, that's not funny. I don't really think
we should be talking like that on behalf of those

(46:10):
who are in the LGBT community. That's another way you
can sort of use that privilege to be the one
to call people out when they're being ignorant, right, because
nobody if you're l g B t Q, you don't
want to feel like the one who was always complaining
or making noise or calling stuff out that can be
you don't want to be a token, right And so
if you're someone who is not marginalized in that way,

(46:32):
you can actually, you know, use that privilege to to
advocate for your co workers and friends and in ways
that they probably cannot write right right right, use that privilege.
I love that. And then the last two pieces of advice,
we just wanted to make sure as clear as don't
ask stupid personal questions, like their sex life is not
up for discussion, just like yours isn't up for discussion.

(46:54):
Like I don't want to hear my colleagues talking about
their sex lives. I don't want to talk about my
sex life, so duh, Like maybe we just don't bring
that up. Also, I have another one that's like very specific.
Don't assume that because someone is out and gay or
or or whatever, that they're like, oh, this is my
gay bestie and now we can talk about fashion and

(47:16):
blah blah blah. I have I see that happen a
lot and so backward, where when someone comes out, they
the tenor of how they of how other folks interact
with them changes, and it's awful and it makes me
want to tear my eyes out because it's so I mean,
if you're don't like if someone is out at work,
don't use that too. I feel like you have a

(47:40):
like a closer friendship or a different kind of friendship
than you actually do. I don't know if that makes sense.
I'm thinking of remember when Queer Eye for the Straight
Guy came out years ago, now, like the idea of
they were like of making a trope out of an
individual gay person in and saying like this is my

(48:01):
interior designer gay friend, this is my fashion gay friend,
and this is my you know person I talked about
sex in the city with at the office every morning,
Like whatever you talked about before is still valid and
interest and you don't need to pretend like you can. Yeah,
nobody likes to be stereotyped, right yea? Or pigeon held
or like, oh you're the I don't know if that's

(48:22):
the right term. Pigeonholed. Pigeonholed, never heard it. I don't know.
I'm sure people will like held sound so much nicer.
It's like holding a little but yeah, So just treat
people the way that you want to be treated, and
that is with respect. Everybody in the workplace just is
there to work. Treat folks with respect. And I feel

(48:44):
like if if if you're if your colleague brings up
a subject matter great talk, you know you can that's
a fair game. But when maybe don't come in ready
to discuss the latest episode of Orange is the New Black,
or you know, anything that you're assuming they would be
into because they are gay. Um. And then the last
thing here is gender neutral bathrooms. Advocate for them, ask

(49:06):
for them, Ask why they don't already exist in your
workplace if they don't, because that's another way that you
can use your privilege if you don't identify as l
g b t Q, to really stand up for your
trans uh folks in the office. Um. And I think
we could really do a whole other episode on gender neutrality.
Definitely right, we should probably do that. Um. But it's

(49:27):
just another thing to think about if you are straight
and since gender and listening to this and want to
know how to not be an ignorant jerk anything else
that throw in there. I think I think that we
nailed it. I think we nailed it too well. I
hope that this is is helpful. We want to shout
out to all of our listeners across the gender spectrum
and you know, lgbt Q, including included, inclusive, and we

(49:53):
we want to make sure that this show better reflects
the diversity of our listeners and the pressing issu hues
of the day, and that I don't you know, I'm
really glad we chose this episode because I had a
lot of blind spots here that through preparing for this,
I feel less ignorant already. Yeah, I think, Um, you know,
people forget that when you think about LGBTQ issues. I

(50:17):
think it's easy to forget that things like Pride. It's
it's not just at least in my mind, and it's easy.
I'm a huge offender here. It's not just an excuse
to wear rainbows and like have a nice time. You know.
The original Pride was was an anti police riot, right, Like,
there are real issues that impact real people's lives. People
are at risk, people are dying. Like, it's very very serious,

(50:39):
and it's easy to forget how furious this is for people. Yeah,
that's a good time. Well, we want to hear from you, honest.
We want to hear what other trapics you want us
to cover too, at the intersections of gender identity, gender
um and sexuality, sexual orientation. So send us a to
read at on stuff podcast. Is that right? Yeah? Yeah,

(51:02):
that's that's our Twitter here, I know, our Twitter handle,
um post, give us a give us a post or
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and Bridget don't we love reading their emails. We love
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we love it. And you can shout us out at
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