September 12, 2025 • 32 mins
Yves schools us on the history of Mary S. Peake, a trailblazing Black American teacher.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm ocome stuff. I never told you Prodection of my
Heart Radio. And it is time once again for another
edition of Female First, which means we were once again
joined by the wondrous, whimsical Eves.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Eaves.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Sounds like I own like a candy factory somewhere. It
does like that.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's funny because I had two other adjectives I was
going to describe you as, but my brain was like,
this is what we're going with, and it could be
because of the conversation we just had.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
We're always like we're in the world. Is Eves? What's
going on with Eves? Can you tell the listeners what
is going on with you? Yeah? I do like to
wonder and wander. The older I get, the more I
like to wonder and wander. Don't really care about my jels. No,
I care about a lot, honestly too much. It plagues me.
But no, I'm in California right now. This is my
(01:06):
first time spend an extended time in northern California. I'm
in wine and country, which I'm not like, I'm not
a big drinker, but I mean I'm gonna drink I'm
gonna go visit something while I'm out here. So yeah,
it's beautiful. The hills are the hills are healing. Okay,
(01:26):
the sun is shining. We got a little bit of
rain that came through and cool things down for the
last couple of days, but like barely an he was
nice so in the patio and the rain, and I
do I'm really enjoying the scenery out here for sure.
Not enjoying the prices though, no thanks for that. Also,
(01:47):
lack of bugs, which we just discussed. Yes, yes, lack
of bugs I do enjoy. I do. Yeah, I can't
deal with it. I was telling y'all. I was telling
Annie and Samantha that I'm so used to bugs in
the South, and particularly water bugs, that I have been
(02:10):
getting jump I'm jump scaring myself. I know everybody knows,
like like the black hair things. If you have like
kinky hair like I do, Max Fro, a little ball
fluff of hair on the floor can look like a
roach in anytime. So I'm jump scaring myself with balls
(02:33):
of my own hair and like and little pockets of shadows.
But I I accept that, you know, there are a
lot of things I'm really resilient about and this is
not one of them. There them. You know, you've got
to accept who you are.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I think that's good, Like that's you know why, which
is what I was originally gonna describe.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You as why. That's something that's a word. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Well it's interesting to me because you are joining
us on a low sleep schedule, and you were talking
about sleeping outside after this, and I feel like that
kind of relates in some ways to what we're going
to talk about. But I also think sometimes I would
get really I would romanticize kind of the sitting outside
(03:23):
and reading with a book and you know, doing that,
and then the bugs show up and it's suddenly not
as romantic as I thought.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
It would be. One of the many traumas of living
in the South.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I mean, we definitely have to get prepared. When I
was younger, it was the sos Avon lotion that was
the secret for the sin so you smell real evergreen
in the woods because you're trying to ward off all
the bugs. But it doesn't always work.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah did that actually work? All the granny say say
it does, and they still swear by it, But I
don't know if it's just like.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I actually worked, because I'm pretty sure I still had
tons of bug bites, so I don't feel like it did.
But then the tale was that it worked because I
could have had more. But I feel like I was
lied to.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh yeah, hard to prove, hard to prove way uh yeah.
Speaking of resilient things, mosquitoes far more resilient than I am.
A kids bugs.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Oh yeah, well, okay, this I swear less there's this
does kind of relate to what we're talking about, very tangentially.
And also now I'm determined to use that. You bring
on an entomologist. I think that will be very funny.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, yeah, we haven't approached that that topic yet here, Yeah,
let's do it. Know sometime in the future, I won't
look at any of the pictures, okay, not just skip over. Well,
in the meantime, In the meantime, who have you brought
for us? Today's Today, we're talking about Mary s Peak,
who was the first black teacher hired by the American
(05:06):
Missionary Association. She did some super cool pioneering things and
like that was very important and impacted a lot of people.
So I'm excited to talk about her today. Yes, yes,
another really fascinating and important history. So I'm excited to
hear about her. Shall we get into it. Yeah? So
(05:26):
she was born Mary Smith Kelsey in eighteen twenty three
in Norfolk, Virginia. Her mother was Sarah, who was described
as a light skinned, free black woman, and her dad
was a white Englishman and they weren't married. But when
Mary was six years old, her mother sent her to Alexandria, Virginia.
(05:47):
At the time she was able to get schooling, although
that would change very soon. Alexandria at the time was
then a part of DC, and so she went to
a black school there got her schooling, and while she
was there she lived with her uncle and aunt, John
and Mary Payne, and they lived in a house owned
by Rowlins Fowl, which is a very posh name like
(06:10):
Rowlins Fowl, okay, who, according to the book Mary s Peak,
the colored teacher at Fortress Monroe by Lewis Lockwood. He
bought enslaved people, freed them, and set them up in business.
So I didn't delve too deep into this man's history,
so I don't know the ins and outs of that, y'all.
I would be interested to know his specific like his
(06:34):
specific story as well, so I'm just saying I'm not
clear exactly what set them up in business, mean, what
the extent of that is. But that book that I
just mentioned, Mary s Peak, the color teacher at Fortress
Monroe by Lewis Lockwood, that'll come up many more times
in this episode. He wrote a biography about her, like
(06:57):
he is very short. So if y'all want to go online,
y'all can go online and read it for free. Right now.
You can go on archive dot organ. It's there, so
it's not an issue to get if you want to
read it and learn a little bit more about her.
But just so y'all know that's where some of the
information is coming from. But yeah, so John Payne was
one of the enslaved people whom Rolands had freed or
(07:21):
Rowlands had freed, and later Mary Kelsey went to another
school that was taught by a white Englishman at the
first Baptist Colored Church, and eventually Mary had to leave
that school. But outside of her schooling, Mary was already
pretty religious. She would memorize parts of the Bible at
(07:45):
the time, and that'll come back up in her life
later on as well. So she left school at age
sixteen and then she went back home to Norfolk, and
in the book there is a story about out Mary
going to a family cemetery near her house at night.
Is this what you were referring to Annie with the
(08:05):
being sleeping outside? No, but I'm very eager to hear
about it. Okay, okay, because that's what I was thinking about.
I'm like, yeah, she did, but that is very like
there's a very specific moment in her life. That was
also very interesting to me when I was reading the
book because it was kind of odd. Okay, I'll say it,
and I'll come back to that thought. But yeah, so
(08:26):
there is if you read the book, it talks about
how she would go to at night, leave the house
and go to like a family cemetery that was near
the house, and she would pray and she would sing there.
And there's like a little anecdote in there about the
neighbors who would be like, oh, wow, she's so heavenly
and angelic, but at this time of night, what is
she doing out there? I mean it's really it's a
(08:49):
really nice serenate but you know, wow. So it was
quite odd to me, not that it's like not as
a practice of hers, like, because I mean, do you
do get it how you live? But just that out
of all of the things in our life that could
have been remarked upon, this thing was one that was
(09:13):
that like left a mark enough to be talked about
in the book. Interesting. It also was like one of
those stories if you read a lot of these people's lives,
things are embellished in a lot of ways. They're very flowery,
you know, they're very hagiographic. It's like this person was
really uplifted in the text, which is like I'm I
(09:34):
get it, you know, I get it, but I don't
you know, I don't know how much of that was
that because there was also like a little bit of
dialogue in there, so there seemed to be some liberties,
probably taken with what exactly people said, but regardless, A
little interesting tidbit about Mary. So Mary joined the first
(10:01):
Baptist church on Butte Street. Her pastor was Reverend James A. Mitchell,
who led the church from the time of Nat Turner's
uprising in eighteen thirty one until his death, which was
around eighteen fifty two. Many of the church members there
were black, and it was said in the book that
like Pastor Mitchell, uphold slavery, but he kept his opinion private,
(10:25):
and this wasn't unusual for the top, for pastors at
the top, so they could continue to do what they did.
If he was vocal at all about his opposition to slavery,
orifice and opinion that he only held in private. Sometimes
it was like it was kind of implied in sermons.
Sometimes the congregants knew it, and then so unclear about that,
(10:45):
but either way. In the book, Lockwood said that he
reached out to a deacon of the church when he
was in Norfolk because he visited there later, and the
deacon said about Mary that she quote had a strong
desire for the conversion of souls and was often found
exhorting them to repentance. Religious language is intense a lot
(11:08):
of the time, and I just, I mean, my mind
automatically goes to horror when I think conversion of souls.
But I get that that means that she was just
very pioused, she was faithful, and she wanted people to
come over on to the Christian side. So in eighteen
forty seven, Mary's mother married Thompson Walker and bought a
(11:31):
house in Hampton, Virginia. Thompson just for a little bit
of his background. Was an enslaved foreman at a plantation
and the founder of Hampton's second oldest black church, which
was Zion Baptist Church. So Mary worked as a seamstress.
She made clothes to make money, and she also created
(11:54):
an organization that was called the Daughters of Zion that
helped people who were poor or who were sick. Now,
in Virginia at the time, like it was in many
other places, it was illegal for black folks to gather
and get an education. So Mary began teaching black people
out of her own home. She even taught her stepfather,
(12:19):
and so in eighteen fifty one she married Thomas Peak,
and he was previously previously enslaved, and he was freed,
but he had a house and he had a farm,
and he worked as a servant at a local hotel.
So Mary continued on teaching, and eventually in eighteen fifty six,
(12:40):
Mary and Thomas had a daughter. Her name was Hattie
aka Daisy. I don't know where she got that. I
don't know where the nickname came from. But I saw
her more referred to as Daisy than I saw her
referred to as Hattie. But yeah, the Civil War the
pivotal moment in history that Mary was in Mayor. You're like,
(13:01):
You're like, it came out of nowhere, Samantha in the area.
What this thing? Okay, what is this event? Yeah? This
is years later, there's not I don't know much about
that period between eighteen fifty six and eighteen sixty one,
but the Civil War broke out and Mary was in Hampton,
(13:27):
and in August of eighteen sixty one, Confederates set Hampton
on the fire. So Mary had to flee her home
and it was destroyed in the chaos. I think it
was the day after she left, so I think they
were like in I think it was August fifth or sixth,
they were led to evacuate, and then the day after
(13:48):
that they came through and burned things down. She lost
her home. I think I think her husband even lost
two homes from my understanding, but either way, they lost
their home, they lost where they were living. And so
not long after the Civil War started, Union troops occupied Hampton,
and then they ended up setting up a base at
(14:09):
Fort Monroe, which I'm sure a lot of the people
who are listening to this podcast know a little bit
about and a lot of enslaved people fled to fort
comfort seeking freedom, and in the summer of eighteen sixty one,
more than nine hundred adults and children sought refuge at
(14:30):
the fort. I can only imagine what that was like, like,
you know, the mix of emotions, how emotionally charged it
would have been there for people who who had just
been through so much tragedy, like for years, but also
(14:51):
on their journey to get there, and then also arriving
with like just utter hope, and also camaraderie. You got
there with other people who were dealing with the same thing,
waiting to know what happened next. I mean, I mean,
I just can't even imagine. But at the time, all
the people who got there were declared contraband of war, okay,
(15:16):
and the commander at the fort ordered them not to
be returned to slavery. And all. Of course, education was
very important, in a priority for people who were newly freed,
because they a lot of them didn't know how to read,
(15:38):
didn't know how to write, so they needed an education
to move through life and to move through their new life.
And so Mary began teaching them under a large oak
tree near the fort. And I wonder how that felt.
I imagine, I'm in my head, I'm there, you know,
because thinking about being under a tree and things being
(16:02):
so different so quickly, like there's so much upheaval, but
then there's so much hope at the same time. But yeah,
so anyway, the American Missionary Association is part of this
whole story. A couple decades prior, abolitionists have founded this association.
They denounced slavery. They didn't like how Protestant churches stayed
(16:26):
neutral regarding slavery, and in September of eighteen sixty one,
the Association sent Louis Lockwood, the author of the book
that I was telling y'all about to Fort Morrow. That's
where a lot of these observations come from. As a
missionary to the newly freed black folks. Some of the
children there told Lewis about Mary. According to his account,
(16:49):
this is how it went. I'm like, and I'm like,
I'm thinking, okay, these children are telling you about Mary,
but like and see her when you walked up, like
you didn't. She wasn't around town. The kids had to
tell you about her, not quite understanding that it's not like,
(17:10):
you know, it's not like it was a really huge place.
But either way, Mary ended up being hired by or
partnering with association to open up her school in a
cottage that was right next to the oak and so
the kids didn't have far to go. The school was
in the front room of the first story of this cottage,
(17:31):
and then her family apartments were in the front room
of the second story of the cottage, and Mary began
teaching the first day of school for these black children.
Her first appears in her story, and classes started on
September seventeenth, eighteen sixty one. And the school was pretty
(17:55):
close to Point Comfort, which is where this first group
of enslaved Africans arrived in Virginia about two and a
half centuries prior to this time. But yeah, so it's
interesting to think about what day to day life would
have looked like for them at the time. In the book,
Lewis Lockwood's observations as this person who was there for
(18:19):
a while but was also like an outsider, you know,
who came in from somewhere else. You can go back
to somewhere else. But he talked about how Hampton was
becoming a thriving, free black settlement. He said, and here's
a quote from the book, it seems fit that this place,
where injustice has been sanctioned by law, should be converted
into a sanctuary of justice, righteousness, and free education. We
(18:44):
consider that we are here trying the very highest experiment
with ex slaves. They are here emphatically turned loose and
are shifting for themselves, doing their own headwork and handwork.
End quote. I was kind of feel when his authorship
in this quote a little bit like there's some ups
and downs, it's some peaks and valleys, it's a roller coaster, okay,
(19:07):
because I have so many thoughts about this. I mean,
this is me being my over analytical writer self, but like,
the interesting thing to me about this is like, right
after this quote, he talks about how this place is
like it's particularly charged. I can't remember the exact language
that he used, but it's like some spiritual language around
(19:28):
this place specifically. That is very interesting to me because yes,
a lot happened here, but also there are so many
places that are charged in similar ways in the South,
so I'm just like, I'm curious about that. And also
I was a little you know, the word highest experiment
(19:51):
with ex slaves didn't really fully sit right with me,
because there's a huge history of terrible experimentation on black
people in the United States. So I'm like, I don't
know if I want y'all to experiment with people, you know,
I don't know if I want experiment anyway, even if
it's something that's considered a little bit more moral and righteous.
I don't, you know. But at the same time, I
(20:12):
get that it's it's language. I mean, I don't think
I don't think that was that is not the I'm
definitely reading that through my twenty twenty five black American eyes,
is what I'm saying in that case. But still, you know,
didn't say it right with me.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I mean, it does still feel like it might be
a connotation that he doesn't see them quite human.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I agree with you, Samantha. We No, I agree with
you because I think it's just m built and so
like when you're already referring, you know, you're considering people
who are enslaved property, even if you didn't agree with slavery,
that's how people. That's how actual people were viewed at
the time. And then after that, once they were free,
they came here in their contraband, so there's still items
(20:53):
you know there's still compared to inanimate objects, things that
don then aren't sentient and don't have you know, feelings.
So yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it's
I think it's both of do I think it's poor
choice of wording, but also, like my something that I'm
particularly triggered by because of the history that I have
lived through after all this time, and it was just
(21:16):
natural white for that not even to register for white
folks because that's how they viewed them. But yeah, I
also that the next line and all be done thinking
about this quote right after this, But I do want
to talk about this because I do like the language
in that last line where he says they are here
(21:38):
emphatically turned loose and are shifting for themselves. Isn't that
a little jazzy? Like does isn't it giving jazz? Because
emphatically it's like that, there feels like there's some agency there.
There feels like there's a lot of activity, Like it's
not like that word experiment that just came before, which
is why I was giving him a little bit more length,
because it's like it feels more, feels more powerful, it
(22:01):
feels like a celebration. Yeah, turned loose, you know, that
feels that feels fluid, and then it's shifting for themselves.
It's like, so he's acknowledging that this isn't just me
as a missionary coming in and being like, here's what
I'm going to do the same with people. This is
how I'm going to change them. This is how I'm
going to civilize them. You know. He he did acknowledge
(22:24):
their own headwork and handwork, and I'm like, I got
to use that now, headwork and handwork. I like that.
So I'm gonna start you saying you hear you, hear
me say, headwork and handwork. No, this will this white
man came is what I am from.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
This is this is the beginning for you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I still phrased it all the time for people that
I just like I've run through my head, Like I
don't really use them in places, but I just I,
you know, I latch into things like this me dude, like,
oh I like that. I like that highlight. So Mary
was on a mission and she was teaching these these
adults and children. So her school at first only had
(23:04):
about six students, but in a few days she had
about fifty or sixty students, including her own five year
old daughter. So, Mary, we all need to know your
sales funnel. What was your marketing like without social media too?
Come on, yeah, how'd you do that? Girl? I'm I'm
just kidding. No. She taught reading, writing, and math, and
(23:31):
she also left some religious instruction because, like I said,
she's been religious since day one basically, and she was
teaching the students to sing hymns as well, like even
memorization of the stuff of religious passages wasn't enough. They
had to go farther than that. But anyway, she was
teaching on all kinds of ways and ways that were
(23:52):
important to her because there is a big hooplah of
course from this source that is a missionary about her
dedicated to Christianity and dedication to spreading the good word.
So it was a part of her life though, and
that was how that was a type of instruction that
she considered important and as important as the rest of
(24:14):
the instruction that everybody was getting. Like there was a
quote about her saying something like, and in preparation as
important as preparatory work is work leading up to the Sabbath,
work is as important as that. So all of that
was part of her instruction, and then soon Mary the
Pioneer kept doing her thing. Other schools opened, and she
(24:38):
even began teaching at this evening school for black adults.
Of course, of course, a lot of the adults coming
in were couldn't read, and so she taught adults to
read as well. In her evening classes, she had about
twenty adults. And she also helped people from the American
Missionary Association start schools in Newport News and Norfolk and
(25:00):
and these were some of the first schools in the
South where black teachers taught big classes of black people.
But unfortunately, although she lived an illustrious life up until
this point and clearly was doing important work at a
pivotal time in a pivotal place, this part of her
(25:20):
life didn't last long. She got sick she had to
stay in bed. In the book, they talk about how
her students would gather around her even when she was
in bed. I'm not sure the extent that she was
actually teaching them from her bed, but she seemed to
have been doing some sort of instruction or at least
just like guidance or the students were supporting her unclear,
(25:41):
but they would gather around her when she was in bed.
A doctor did recommend that she stopped teaching, but it
was around the time there was this big Christmas festival
at the school. A little bit after that, Mary got
increasingly sick. She was coughing more, she was tired, and
she was weak, and it turned doubt that Mary had tuberculosis.
(26:02):
She had to stop teaching around January of eighteen sixty two,
and she died on February twenty second, eighteen sixty two.
She was buried in Elmerton Cemetery in Hampton. But that
tree that she taught students under, that's also where people
gathered to hear the first reading of the Emancipation Proclamation
(26:25):
in the South. It's called that Emancipation Oak and Hampton
Normal and Agricultural Institute, which is called then it's now
Hampton University, was founded there in eighteen sixty eight by
leaders of the American Missionary Association. So that all that
is on Hampton, this whole area. And that's the story
in Mary Keeth. Yes, the oak tree was what I
(26:58):
was talking about. Okay, Yes, okay, I didn't put too
and two together.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You're smarter than me, No, you had you had a
great deep cut ready to go excellent credit.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, yes, and there is listeners if you want to
look it up.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
There's a lot, like like you've said, Eves, like you
can read the biography. There's a lot of stuff you
can find written about her. And it is interesting as
we always talk about kind of taking into context all
the history going on and who's writing it and all that,
but we've also talked before about the power of knowledge
and reading and all of that stuff. So just what
(27:41):
she was doing was so so important and I didn't
really realize until you were talking about it because I'm
out of that world now.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
But we are sort of in back to school season.
Oh yeah, so it's it's been a well time, like
we're all going to school. That's funny.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I mean, in general, I think when we talk about
the power of education and why groups of people don't
want certain groups of people to have that education, that
power and is kind of ever growing in conversation and
never stopping, never ending. That is because it's still true,
like what she was doing was giving power back to
(28:27):
her community in an amazing way. And I say short
life because I'm like hen she was young. She did
so much for her people, for her community, rather that
it shows like it spread those schools that opened after her,
and that showed that they were thriving. I mean, that's
that conversation of like, yeah, this is what it looks
(28:48):
like when we actually take that in and understand the
power of education, the power of learning and growth.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah. Imagine fleeing your home because of an unprecedented war
that a lot of lives hinge upon, going like right
down the street and being like, I'm going to teach
some kids. I'm good. I think, yeah, okay, good, at
least good enough to pass along some knowledge exactly. So yes, yeah,
(29:20):
shout out to her. I mean seriously, like I it
seems like like you have to have great resolve and dedication,
like commitment to the cause to do what she did.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I wonder too, I haven't researched her at all, because
I'm like excited when you come and tell us these
people that we should know but we don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
So we're excited.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
But I wonder how many people have connections with her,
like people who taught she taught to read, and that
has passed this hype of well legacy down to their family.
I would love to hear about that. That would be amazing
to see those connections.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, I would too. I'm not sure, but I imagine it exponentially.
It was exponential situation. You Yeah, he knows of anybody. Yeah,
that would be cool.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I do feel like you know, hopefully most of us,
if we're lucky, you have that one teacher that really
left an impression on you or changed your life, and
maybe it was something really small, but it really stuck
with you. So I bet I'm sure that there are
some people out there that hopefully have had her legacy
(30:29):
passed down and maybe have heard stories about her.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So that would be really cool. Yeah, it would. I
have ninety teachers like that. Yeah, ninety teachers over the
course of my life who from the smallest support to
the biggest, biggest support, I left huge marks on my life.
So always love bringing a teacher and I definitely will
(30:52):
be bringing another teacher at some point. I have before,
we'll be bringing another teacher on it because you know,
deserve some upliftment. They absolutely do, and it really is.
It's so valuable.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Well, thank you so much, Eves as always for coming on.
I hope that you have a wonderful bug free after.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm wired now I'm up I'm thinking about. Oh no, Well,
where can the good listeners find you? Y'all can go
to my website which is Eve's Jeffcoat dot com. That's
spelled y v E s j E F F C
(31:41):
O A T dot com. Y'all can also go to Instagram.
I'm on there sometimes my Instagram is not apologizing, and
you can also find me on many other episodes of
stuff Mom Never Told You talking about these female first
about women in history who had awesome accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, yes, and listeners go check out all of that
stuff if you haven't already h And if you would
like to contact us, you can. You can email us
at Hello at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You can
find us on blue Sky at Mom Stuff Podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told You
for us on YouTube. We have a new merchandise at
Cotton Bureau, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to a
(32:23):
super producer, senior executive producer My and.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Steffan Never Told You a protection of iHeartRadio for more
podcast from my heart Radio. You can check out the
iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or if you listen to
your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm ocome stuff. I never told you Prodection of my
Heart Radio. And it is time once again for another
edition of Female First, which means we were once again
joined by the wondrous, whimsical Eves.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Eaves.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Sounds like I own like a candy factory somewhere. It
does like that.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's funny because I had two other adjectives I was
going to describe you as, but my brain was like,
this is what we're going with, and it could be
because of the conversation we just had.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
We're always like we're in the world. Is Eves? What's
going on with Eves? Can you tell the listeners what
is going on with you? Yeah? I do like to
wonder and wander. The older I get, the more I
like to wonder and wander. Don't really care about my jels. No,
I care about a lot, honestly too much. It plagues me.
But no, I'm in California right now. This is my
(01:06):
first time spend an extended time in northern California. I'm
in wine and country, which I'm not like, I'm not
a big drinker, but I mean I'm gonna drink I'm
gonna go visit something while I'm out here. So yeah,
it's beautiful. The hills are the hills are healing. Okay,
(01:26):
the sun is shining. We got a little bit of
rain that came through and cool things down for the
last couple of days, but like barely an he was
nice so in the patio and the rain, and I
do I'm really enjoying the scenery out here for sure.
Not enjoying the prices though, no thanks for that. Also,
(01:47):
lack of bugs, which we just discussed. Yes, yes, lack
of bugs I do enjoy. I do. Yeah, I can't
deal with it. I was telling y'all. I was telling
Annie and Samantha that I'm so used to bugs in
the South, and particularly water bugs, that I have been
(02:10):
getting jump I'm jump scaring myself. I know everybody knows,
like like the black hair things. If you have like
kinky hair like I do, Max Fro, a little ball
fluff of hair on the floor can look like a
roach in anytime. So I'm jump scaring myself with balls
(02:33):
of my own hair and like and little pockets of shadows.
But I I accept that, you know, there are a
lot of things I'm really resilient about and this is
not one of them. There them. You know, you've got
to accept who you are.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I think that's good, Like that's you know why, which
is what I was originally gonna describe.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You as why. That's something that's a word. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Well it's interesting to me because you are joining
us on a low sleep schedule, and you were talking
about sleeping outside after this, and I feel like that
kind of relates in some ways to what we're going
to talk about. But I also think sometimes I would
get really I would romanticize kind of the sitting outside
(03:23):
and reading with a book and you know, doing that,
and then the bugs show up and it's suddenly not
as romantic as I thought.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
It would be. One of the many traumas of living
in the South.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
I mean, we definitely have to get prepared. When I
was younger, it was the sos Avon lotion that was
the secret for the sin so you smell real evergreen
in the woods because you're trying to ward off all
the bugs. But it doesn't always work.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah did that actually work? All the granny say say
it does, and they still swear by it, But I
don't know if it's just like.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I actually worked, because I'm pretty sure I still had
tons of bug bites, so I don't feel like it did.
But then the tale was that it worked because I
could have had more. But I feel like I was
lied to.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh yeah, hard to prove, hard to prove way uh yeah.
Speaking of resilient things, mosquitoes far more resilient than I am.
A kids bugs.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Oh yeah, well, okay, this I swear less there's this
does kind of relate to what we're talking about, very tangentially.
And also now I'm determined to use that. You bring
on an entomologist. I think that will be very funny.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, yeah, we haven't approached that that topic yet here, Yeah,
let's do it. Know sometime in the future, I won't
look at any of the pictures, okay, not just skip over. Well,
in the meantime, In the meantime, who have you brought
for us? Today's Today, we're talking about Mary s Peak,
who was the first black teacher hired by the American
(05:06):
Missionary Association. She did some super cool pioneering things and
like that was very important and impacted a lot of people.
So I'm excited to talk about her today. Yes, yes,
another really fascinating and important history. So I'm excited to
hear about her. Shall we get into it. Yeah? So
(05:26):
she was born Mary Smith Kelsey in eighteen twenty three
in Norfolk, Virginia. Her mother was Sarah, who was described
as a light skinned, free black woman, and her dad
was a white Englishman and they weren't married. But when
Mary was six years old, her mother sent her to Alexandria, Virginia.
(05:47):
At the time she was able to get schooling, although
that would change very soon. Alexandria at the time was
then a part of DC, and so she went to
a black school there got her schooling, and while she
was there she lived with her uncle and aunt, John
and Mary Payne, and they lived in a house owned
by Rowlins Fowl, which is a very posh name like
(06:10):
Rowlins Fowl, okay, who, according to the book Mary s Peak,
the colored teacher at Fortress Monroe by Lewis Lockwood. He
bought enslaved people, freed them, and set them up in business.
So I didn't delve too deep into this man's history,
so I don't know the ins and outs of that, y'all.
I would be interested to know his specific like his
(06:34):
specific story as well, so I'm just saying I'm not
clear exactly what set them up in business, mean, what
the extent of that is. But that book that I
just mentioned, Mary s Peak, the color teacher at Fortress
Monroe by Lewis Lockwood, that'll come up many more times
in this episode. He wrote a biography about her, like
(06:57):
he is very short. So if y'all want to go online,
y'all can go online and read it for free. Right now.
You can go on archive dot organ. It's there, so
it's not an issue to get if you want to
read it and learn a little bit more about her.
But just so y'all know that's where some of the
information is coming from. But yeah, so John Payne was
one of the enslaved people whom Rolands had freed or
(07:21):
Rowlands had freed, and later Mary Kelsey went to another
school that was taught by a white Englishman at the
first Baptist Colored Church, and eventually Mary had to leave
that school. But outside of her schooling, Mary was already
pretty religious. She would memorize parts of the Bible at
(07:45):
the time, and that'll come back up in her life
later on as well. So she left school at age
sixteen and then she went back home to Norfolk, and
in the book there is a story about out Mary
going to a family cemetery near her house at night.
Is this what you were referring to Annie with the
(08:05):
being sleeping outside? No, but I'm very eager to hear
about it. Okay, okay, because that's what I was thinking about.
I'm like, yeah, she did, but that is very like
there's a very specific moment in her life. That was
also very interesting to me when I was reading the
book because it was kind of odd. Okay, I'll say it,
and I'll come back to that thought. But yeah, so
(08:26):
there is if you read the book, it talks about
how she would go to at night, leave the house
and go to like a family cemetery that was near
the house, and she would pray and she would sing there.
And there's like a little anecdote in there about the
neighbors who would be like, oh, wow, she's so heavenly
and angelic, but at this time of night, what is
she doing out there? I mean it's really it's a
(08:49):
really nice serenate but you know, wow. So it was
quite odd to me, not that it's like not as
a practice of hers, like, because I mean, do you
do get it how you live? But just that out
of all of the things in our life that could
have been remarked upon, this thing was one that was
(09:13):
that like left a mark enough to be talked about
in the book. Interesting. It also was like one of
those stories if you read a lot of these people's lives,
things are embellished in a lot of ways. They're very flowery,
you know, they're very hagiographic. It's like this person was
really uplifted in the text, which is like I'm I
(09:34):
get it, you know, I get it, but I don't
you know, I don't know how much of that was
that because there was also like a little bit of
dialogue in there, so there seemed to be some liberties,
probably taken with what exactly people said, but regardless, A
little interesting tidbit about Mary. So Mary joined the first
(10:01):
Baptist church on Butte Street. Her pastor was Reverend James A. Mitchell,
who led the church from the time of Nat Turner's
uprising in eighteen thirty one until his death, which was
around eighteen fifty two. Many of the church members there
were black, and it was said in the book that
like Pastor Mitchell, uphold slavery, but he kept his opinion private,
(10:25):
and this wasn't unusual for the top, for pastors at
the top, so they could continue to do what they did.
If he was vocal at all about his opposition to slavery,
orifice and opinion that he only held in private. Sometimes
it was like it was kind of implied in sermons.
Sometimes the congregants knew it, and then so unclear about that,
(10:45):
but either way. In the book, Lockwood said that he
reached out to a deacon of the church when he
was in Norfolk because he visited there later, and the
deacon said about Mary that she quote had a strong
desire for the conversion of souls and was often found
exhorting them to repentance. Religious language is intense a lot
(11:08):
of the time, and I just, I mean, my mind
automatically goes to horror when I think conversion of souls.
But I get that that means that she was just
very pioused, she was faithful, and she wanted people to
come over on to the Christian side. So in eighteen
forty seven, Mary's mother married Thompson Walker and bought a
(11:31):
house in Hampton, Virginia. Thompson just for a little bit
of his background. Was an enslaved foreman at a plantation
and the founder of Hampton's second oldest black church, which
was Zion Baptist Church. So Mary worked as a seamstress.
She made clothes to make money, and she also created
(11:54):
an organization that was called the Daughters of Zion that
helped people who were poor or who were sick. Now,
in Virginia at the time, like it was in many
other places, it was illegal for black folks to gather
and get an education. So Mary began teaching black people
out of her own home. She even taught her stepfather,
(12:19):
and so in eighteen fifty one she married Thomas Peak,
and he was previously previously enslaved, and he was freed,
but he had a house and he had a farm,
and he worked as a servant at a local hotel.
So Mary continued on teaching, and eventually in eighteen fifty six,
(12:40):
Mary and Thomas had a daughter. Her name was Hattie
aka Daisy. I don't know where she got that. I
don't know where the nickname came from. But I saw
her more referred to as Daisy than I saw her
referred to as Hattie. But yeah, the Civil War the
pivotal moment in history that Mary was in Mayor. You're like,
(13:01):
You're like, it came out of nowhere, Samantha in the area.
What this thing? Okay, what is this event? Yeah? This
is years later, there's not I don't know much about
that period between eighteen fifty six and eighteen sixty one,
but the Civil War broke out and Mary was in Hampton,
(13:27):
and in August of eighteen sixty one, Confederates set Hampton
on the fire. So Mary had to flee her home
and it was destroyed in the chaos. I think it
was the day after she left, so I think they
were like in I think it was August fifth or sixth,
they were led to evacuate, and then the day after
(13:48):
that they came through and burned things down. She lost
her home. I think I think her husband even lost
two homes from my understanding, but either way, they lost
their home, they lost where they were living. And so
not long after the Civil War started, Union troops occupied Hampton,
and then they ended up setting up a base at
(14:09):
Fort Monroe, which I'm sure a lot of the people
who are listening to this podcast know a little bit
about and a lot of enslaved people fled to fort
comfort seeking freedom, and in the summer of eighteen sixty one,
more than nine hundred adults and children sought refuge at
(14:30):
the fort. I can only imagine what that was like, like,
you know, the mix of emotions, how emotionally charged it
would have been there for people who who had just
been through so much tragedy, like for years, but also
(14:51):
on their journey to get there, and then also arriving
with like just utter hope, and also camaraderie. You got
there with other people who were dealing with the same thing,
waiting to know what happened next. I mean, I mean,
I just can't even imagine. But at the time, all
the people who got there were declared contraband of war, okay,
(15:16):
and the commander at the fort ordered them not to
be returned to slavery. And all. Of course, education was
very important, in a priority for people who were newly freed,
because they a lot of them didn't know how to read,
(15:38):
didn't know how to write, so they needed an education
to move through life and to move through their new life.
And so Mary began teaching them under a large oak
tree near the fort. And I wonder how that felt.
I imagine, I'm in my head, I'm there, you know,
because thinking about being under a tree and things being
(16:02):
so different so quickly, like there's so much upheaval, but
then there's so much hope at the same time. But yeah,
so anyway, the American Missionary Association is part of this
whole story. A couple decades prior, abolitionists have founded this association.
They denounced slavery. They didn't like how Protestant churches stayed
(16:26):
neutral regarding slavery, and in September of eighteen sixty one,
the Association sent Louis Lockwood, the author of the book
that I was telling y'all about to Fort Morrow. That's
where a lot of these observations come from. As a
missionary to the newly freed black folks. Some of the
children there told Lewis about Mary. According to his account,
(16:49):
this is how it went. I'm like, and I'm like,
I'm thinking, okay, these children are telling you about Mary,
but like and see her when you walked up, like
you didn't. She wasn't around town. The kids had to
tell you about her, not quite understanding that it's not like,
(17:10):
you know, it's not like it was a really huge place.
But either way, Mary ended up being hired by or
partnering with association to open up her school in a
cottage that was right next to the oak and so
the kids didn't have far to go. The school was
in the front room of the first story of this cottage,
(17:31):
and then her family apartments were in the front room
of the second story of the cottage, and Mary began
teaching the first day of school for these black children.
Her first appears in her story, and classes started on
September seventeenth, eighteen sixty one. And the school was pretty
(17:55):
close to Point Comfort, which is where this first group
of enslaved Africans arrived in Virginia about two and a
half centuries prior to this time. But yeah, so it's
interesting to think about what day to day life would
have looked like for them at the time. In the book,
Lewis Lockwood's observations as this person who was there for
(18:19):
a while but was also like an outsider, you know,
who came in from somewhere else. You can go back
to somewhere else. But he talked about how Hampton was
becoming a thriving, free black settlement. He said, and here's
a quote from the book, it seems fit that this place,
where injustice has been sanctioned by law, should be converted
into a sanctuary of justice, righteousness, and free education. We
(18:44):
consider that we are here trying the very highest experiment
with ex slaves. They are here emphatically turned loose and
are shifting for themselves, doing their own headwork and handwork.
End quote. I was kind of feel when his authorship
in this quote a little bit like there's some ups
and downs, it's some peaks and valleys, it's a roller coaster, okay,
(19:07):
because I have so many thoughts about this. I mean,
this is me being my over analytical writer self, but like,
the interesting thing to me about this is like, right
after this quote, he talks about how this place is
like it's particularly charged. I can't remember the exact language
that he used, but it's like some spiritual language around
(19:28):
this place specifically. That is very interesting to me because yes,
a lot happened here, but also there are so many
places that are charged in similar ways in the South,
so I'm just like, I'm curious about that. And also
I was a little you know, the word highest experiment
(19:51):
with ex slaves didn't really fully sit right with me,
because there's a huge history of terrible experimentation on black
people in the United States. So I'm like, I don't
know if I want y'all to experiment with people, you know,
I don't know if I want experiment anyway, even if
it's something that's considered a little bit more moral and righteous.
I don't, you know. But at the same time, I
(20:12):
get that it's it's language. I mean, I don't think
I don't think that was that is not the I'm
definitely reading that through my twenty twenty five black American eyes,
is what I'm saying in that case. But still, you know,
didn't say it right with me.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I mean, it does still feel like it might be
a connotation that he doesn't see them quite human.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I agree with you, Samantha. We No, I agree with
you because I think it's just m built and so
like when you're already referring, you know, you're considering people
who are enslaved property, even if you didn't agree with slavery,
that's how people. That's how actual people were viewed at
the time. And then after that, once they were free,
they came here in their contraband, so there's still items
(20:53):
you know there's still compared to inanimate objects, things that
don then aren't sentient and don't have you know, feelings.
So yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it's
I think it's both of do I think it's poor
choice of wording, but also, like my something that I'm
particularly triggered by because of the history that I have
lived through after all this time, and it was just
(21:16):
natural white for that not even to register for white
folks because that's how they viewed them. But yeah, I
also that the next line and all be done thinking
about this quote right after this, But I do want
to talk about this because I do like the language
in that last line where he says they are here
(21:38):
emphatically turned loose and are shifting for themselves. Isn't that
a little jazzy? Like does isn't it giving jazz? Because
emphatically it's like that, there feels like there's some agency there.
There feels like there's a lot of activity, Like it's
not like that word experiment that just came before, which
is why I was giving him a little bit more length,
because it's like it feels more, feels more powerful, it
(22:01):
feels like a celebration. Yeah, turned loose, you know, that
feels that feels fluid, and then it's shifting for themselves.
It's like, so he's acknowledging that this isn't just me
as a missionary coming in and being like, here's what
I'm going to do the same with people. This is
how I'm going to change them. This is how I'm
going to civilize them. You know. He he did acknowledge
(22:24):
their own headwork and handwork, and I'm like, I got
to use that now, headwork and handwork. I like that.
So I'm gonna start you saying you hear you, hear
me say, headwork and handwork. No, this will this white
man came is what I am from.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
This is this is the beginning for you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
I still phrased it all the time for people that
I just like I've run through my head, Like I
don't really use them in places, but I just I,
you know, I latch into things like this me dude, like,
oh I like that. I like that highlight. So Mary
was on a mission and she was teaching these these
adults and children. So her school at first only had
(23:04):
about six students, but in a few days she had
about fifty or sixty students, including her own five year
old daughter. So, Mary, we all need to know your
sales funnel. What was your marketing like without social media too?
Come on, yeah, how'd you do that? Girl? I'm I'm
just kidding. No. She taught reading, writing, and math, and
(23:31):
she also left some religious instruction because, like I said,
she's been religious since day one basically, and she was
teaching the students to sing hymns as well, like even
memorization of the stuff of religious passages wasn't enough. They
had to go farther than that. But anyway, she was
teaching on all kinds of ways and ways that were
(23:52):
important to her because there is a big hooplah of
course from this source that is a missionary about her
dedicated to Christianity and dedication to spreading the good word.
So it was a part of her life though, and
that was how that was a type of instruction that
she considered important and as important as the rest of
(24:14):
the instruction that everybody was getting. Like there was a
quote about her saying something like, and in preparation as
important as preparatory work is work leading up to the Sabbath,
work is as important as that. So all of that
was part of her instruction, and then soon Mary the
Pioneer kept doing her thing. Other schools opened, and she
(24:38):
even began teaching at this evening school for black adults.
Of course, of course, a lot of the adults coming
in were couldn't read, and so she taught adults to
read as well. In her evening classes, she had about
twenty adults. And she also helped people from the American
Missionary Association start schools in Newport News and Norfolk and
(25:00):
and these were some of the first schools in the
South where black teachers taught big classes of black people.
But unfortunately, although she lived an illustrious life up until
this point and clearly was doing important work at a
pivotal time in a pivotal place, this part of her
(25:20):
life didn't last long. She got sick she had to
stay in bed. In the book, they talk about how
her students would gather around her even when she was
in bed. I'm not sure the extent that she was
actually teaching them from her bed, but she seemed to
have been doing some sort of instruction or at least
just like guidance or the students were supporting her unclear,
(25:41):
but they would gather around her when she was in bed.
A doctor did recommend that she stopped teaching, but it
was around the time there was this big Christmas festival
at the school. A little bit after that, Mary got
increasingly sick. She was coughing more, she was tired, and
she was weak, and it turned doubt that Mary had tuberculosis.
(26:02):
She had to stop teaching around January of eighteen sixty two,
and she died on February twenty second, eighteen sixty two.
She was buried in Elmerton Cemetery in Hampton. But that
tree that she taught students under, that's also where people
gathered to hear the first reading of the Emancipation Proclamation
(26:25):
in the South. It's called that Emancipation Oak and Hampton
Normal and Agricultural Institute, which is called then it's now
Hampton University, was founded there in eighteen sixty eight by
leaders of the American Missionary Association. So that all that
is on Hampton, this whole area. And that's the story
in Mary Keeth. Yes, the oak tree was what I
(26:58):
was talking about. Okay, Yes, okay, I didn't put too
and two together.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
You're smarter than me, No, you had you had a
great deep cut ready to go excellent credit.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yes, yes, and there is listeners if you want to
look it up.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
There's a lot, like like you've said, Eves, like you
can read the biography. There's a lot of stuff you
can find written about her. And it is interesting as
we always talk about kind of taking into context all
the history going on and who's writing it and all that,
but we've also talked before about the power of knowledge
and reading and all of that stuff. So just what
(27:41):
she was doing was so so important and I didn't
really realize until you were talking about it because I'm
out of that world now.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
But we are sort of in back to school season.
Oh yeah, so it's it's been a well time, like
we're all going to school. That's funny.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I mean, in general, I think when we talk about
the power of education and why groups of people don't
want certain groups of people to have that education, that
power and is kind of ever growing in conversation and
never stopping, never ending. That is because it's still true,
like what she was doing was giving power back to
(28:27):
her community in an amazing way. And I say short
life because I'm like hen she was young. She did
so much for her people, for her community, rather that
it shows like it spread those schools that opened after her,
and that showed that they were thriving. I mean, that's
that conversation of like, yeah, this is what it looks
(28:48):
like when we actually take that in and understand the
power of education, the power of learning and growth.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah. Imagine fleeing your home because of an unprecedented war
that a lot of lives hinge upon, going like right
down the street and being like, I'm going to teach
some kids. I'm good. I think, yeah, okay, good, at
least good enough to pass along some knowledge exactly. So yes, yeah,
(29:20):
shout out to her. I mean seriously, like I it
seems like like you have to have great resolve and dedication,
like commitment to the cause to do what she did.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I wonder too, I haven't researched her at all, because
I'm like excited when you come and tell us these
people that we should know but we don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
So we're excited.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
But I wonder how many people have connections with her,
like people who taught she taught to read, and that
has passed this hype of well legacy down to their family.
I would love to hear about that. That would be amazing
to see those connections.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, I would too. I'm not sure, but I imagine it exponentially.
It was exponential situation. You Yeah, he knows of anybody. Yeah,
that would be cool.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I do feel like you know, hopefully most of us,
if we're lucky, you have that one teacher that really
left an impression on you or changed your life, and
maybe it was something really small, but it really stuck
with you. So I bet I'm sure that there are
some people out there that hopefully have had her legacy
(30:29):
passed down and maybe have heard stories about her.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So that would be really cool. Yeah, it would. I
have ninety teachers like that. Yeah, ninety teachers over the
course of my life who from the smallest support to
the biggest, biggest support, I left huge marks on my life.
So always love bringing a teacher and I definitely will
(30:52):
be bringing another teacher at some point. I have before,
we'll be bringing another teacher on it because you know,
deserve some upliftment. They absolutely do, and it really is.
It's so valuable.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Well, thank you so much, Eves as always for coming on.
I hope that you have a wonderful bug free after.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm wired now I'm up I'm thinking about. Oh no, Well,
where can the good listeners find you? Y'all can go
to my website which is Eve's Jeffcoat dot com. That's
spelled y v E s j E F F C
(31:41):
O A T dot com. Y'all can also go to Instagram.
I'm on there sometimes my Instagram is not apologizing, and
you can also find me on many other episodes of
stuff Mom Never Told You talking about these female first
about women in history who had awesome accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, yes, and listeners go check out all of that
stuff if you haven't already h And if you would
like to contact us, you can. You can email us
at Hello at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You can
find us on blue Sky at Mom Stuff Podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told You
for us on YouTube. We have a new merchandise at
Cotton Bureau, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to a
(32:23):
super producer, senior executive producer My and.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Steffan Never Told You a protection of iHeartRadio for more
podcast from my heart Radio. You can check out the
iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or if you listen to
your favorite shows,
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