December 6, 2019 • 42 mins
Anney and Samantha dive into the feminism of two holiday classics: Batman Returns and Iron Man 3 (with bonus discussion on Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse).
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffman.
Never told your protection of I Heart Radio's house stuff works.
It's time for another feminist movie Friday. We're gonna make
this I think so. Wait, this is because it's coming
(00:26):
out on Friday night, that we're watching it on Friday.
It's however it fits into the lives of whoever is listening. Yes,
it should accomplish on Fridays. But if you don't watch
it on a Friday, that's totally cool. If you don't
watch it, ever, I thought, I'm totally cool listen. Yeah,
well no, no, I don't want to movie. Okay, Well yeah, see,
(00:47):
there's a lot of things you could make this work on. However,
use about you know what sences we're supposed to be
using right now? That seems to be a general confusion
we have has been general confused. Um, so I got
to choose the last movie for feminist movie Friday, and
so this one it was more of a Samantha choice.
(01:11):
I thought it was a team effort because we were
both trying to figure out what movie is Holiday, but
without being to holiday, right, because, like we talked about
in our emotional labor holiday aged episode. Samantha's not a
big holiday fan. And um, back when I was sort
of semi host less, I did a holiday movie overview
(01:32):
with my friend Katie. It was mostly Hallmark movies. Hi Katie,
she's an expert in those, um, but we thought we'd
tackle some lesser discussed holiday movies today so that you
this is more than one film, right, But to be fair, yes,
the movie that I chose, it's very much like even
though they might not be seeing holiday carols, there's a
(01:54):
lot of holiday decorations in the entire movie. Yes, And
so we've built it up here we go, Oh, we're
talking about Batman returns. Yeah, with a little bit of
Iron Man three a little bit and a little bit
of Spider Man into the spiderse a little um. I
would like to say, though, we will be coming back
to the craft and the many suggestions you guys had,
(02:15):
who decided to go ahead and start our holiday addition
with a little bit of feminist turn again. I don't
like holidays, Um, Hello, I kind of enjoy some holiday movies.
I already said that I like Love actually and that
is an absolute holiday movie. But that was just two
on the nose for Yeah, well, and a lot of
(02:35):
them as we discussed I think in the past past episode. UM,
hard to have much feminist discussion in them unless we're
just like, well, this is all a problem here. Um.
And surprisingly Batman returns, there's a lot to be said, Yeah,
you're surprised. And somehow we wedged a viewing in for
(02:56):
both Batman returns and Spider Man in to the Spider
Verse on Sunday. Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness. And
then we had like Harry Potter in there, so it
was all night. It wasn't very long. Also, I feel like, uh,
I missed an opportunity to have the live interaction commentary
(03:17):
that you put on Annie. It's almost as entertaining as
the actual movie. And so if you guys ever want
to treat if I could ever live stream you watching
Spider Man into the Spider Verse, and it will never
be a clip of the movie. It's just you squealing
at the movie the entire time. It's Oh man, I
(03:39):
had about Curby dots Curby dots the line and it
was so so A friend Joe was there and the
two of you were just having a backup board and
I kept looking about be going you guys are the
worst people to watch movies. Yeah. I really couldn't contain
my enthusiasm. I appreciate that you let me have that. Oh,
(04:00):
I don't know. One day we're gonna do it again
and I'm gonna live stream for everyone. I was very excited.
I didn't know we were going to get to watch that.
That was kind of a bonus little treat. Yes, Um,
so we will return to that at the very end.
And if I want to do spoiled Saturdays where we
just have a take on something that's really recent and
if you don't want to be spoiled, then don't listen.
(04:21):
We could talk about The Joker like that we talked
about previously, and then Midsummer I have Yeah, I have
so many horror movies. Please let me talk about this. Um.
But okay, today we're talking about Batman returns. That turns yeah,
and UM. For this, I did want to do a
really quick overview of Catwoman because she's pretty much what
we're gonna be talking about in terms of this movie. Um,
(04:45):
and she's been around a long long time. I think
definitely future episode because there's a lot to be said
about her. But quickly, she first appeared in nineteen forty,
meaning that she's been through the first, second, third, and
fourth if you want to call that waves of feminism.
She was designed by Jerry Robinson and Bob Kane. Only
three women have written for her so far, and she's
(05:08):
only ever been drawn by men. If you're wondering, um,
she was one of the first ever female comic book superheroes.
In quotes, um, her name is Selina Kyle, and she's
a cat burglar in a cat suit. She's often painted
as an anti hero and sometimes a villain and sometimes
a hero, and this allows her to operate in a
(05:29):
space where she's tough to pin down. Um. She's more
than Batman's sometimes love interest. Over the years, she's been
played by a handful of people, from Michelle Peiffer to
Halle Berry to Ann Hathaway and I think I was
telling you, Samath. I'm pretty sure most of the mainstream
women who have played her have all been nominated for oscars.
Are one oscars so hey yeah, um and yes, And
(05:54):
most depictions she is highly sexualized. Her outfit is similar
to what a dominatrix would wear, down to the whip,
which is usually her weapon of choice, and then there's
this quote. Um Bob Kane once said of Catwoman, I
felt that women were feline creatures and men were more
like dogs. While dogs are faithful and friendly, cats are cool, detached,
(06:18):
and unreliable. I felt much warmer with dogs around me.
Cats are as hard to understand as women are. Men
feel more sure of themselves with a male friend than
a woman. You always need to keep women at arms length.
We don't want anyone taking over our souls, and women
have a habit of doing that. So there's a love
resentment thing with women. I guess women will feel that
(06:39):
I'm being chauvinistic to speak this way, but I do
feel that I've had better relationships with male friends than women.
With women wants thro romance is over somehow. They never
remain my friends, of course not. So this is the
person who created a Catwoman. That might give you some
insight into the character. This also might she was created
(07:02):
in part to combat talk of homo eroticism between Batman
and Robin and to reinforce Batman's heterosexuality. Yeah, Catwoman was
banned from the comics in the fifties because of the
comic code that dictated that crime should never be seen
to pay and Catwoman was not acting like how a
woman should behave Oh no, and she didn't return until
(07:24):
the nineteen sixties. She was originally played by Julie Numar
in the nineteen sixties TV series with Adam west Um,
who was also then later on played by Eartha kit
in the final season of that series, apparently because Julie
Numar was in a movie contract. She has different origin stories,
so the first being known as the cat who carries
(07:44):
the whip and has high stakes thievery. Yeah. Um to
a stewardess with amnesia that turned to crime that then
later assisted Batman in stopping crime. Uh, to the now
Little Nothing, Now to the what We're talking About ninety
two version of the Revenge speaking Receptionist Assistant an Assistant
(08:07):
um too and Hathaway's original take on the high stage
thief right. And throughout these various incarnations, one thing that
has remained steady is that she is sexualized and the
power her body has over others. However, since she is
catering to the male gaze, it's really hard to say
what is power and what is objectification? Um and I
(08:29):
have felt this when I have a dressed as her, Um,
because I have had a lot of super gross comments
made to me, UM, including one that really stands out
where this guy said that I quote knew exactly what
I was doing by addressing as her rape. It was gross.
It's very comment. Uh. Side note here according to some
in the original series, um, and then when we see
(08:51):
it again in both Batman Returns and Dark Knight, the
love story link between Batman and Catwoman existed. However, when
Arthur Kit portrayed the role as Catwoman. Because she was
African American and because Adam West is was white, writers
and creators felt it was too taboo and not suitable
for them to be a on screen romance, so they
changed that story to being bat Girl and Batman, which
(09:14):
is yeah, bad girl. There was also a boat Woman
who was introduced when Catwoman was off the stage, who
was like see heater normativity family. She was like the mom,
the boring mom, and then Batman is the dad Robin
nurser side. And I remember because I did watch the series,
I don't know. I guess I really like the Adam
(09:36):
West series growing up, where bad Girl was very the
girl next door while Catwoman was the bad girl. Yeah.
So the plot. How would you describe this little couple
so many things? Because you know this is the beginning
where they were having more than one and I hera
villain into the stories. So Batman returns in the Batman's sequel,
(10:00):
directed by Tim Barton with a script by Daniel Waters.
This is the same dude that did the script for Heathers,
which any you acknowledged. Yes, and that's gonna be another
movie I think we need to visit. Um. Michael Keaton
plays Bruce Wayne Batman, who was doing his best to
protect Gotham from a corrupt industrialist named Max Shrek, who
(10:21):
was played by the wonderful Christopher Walkins I browsed so
good and a crime boss known as the Penguin by
the who else could it be? But Danny de Vito like,
I don't know if there's gonna be any one who
could replace that. And it takes place Tatada at Christmas time.
A giant tree at the opening scene, the Christmas tree lighting,
(10:43):
Yes that's yes, that's true, presents all that yes to
bring in all of the crazy clowns. Apparently circuses something
had to do with it, as well as Zoo's Okay,
so according to the Amazon description, Yeah, let's see what
how amazons Batman Kate Chris later it's pitted against demented,
refinous penguin, pitiful orphaned, psychopathic freak, and power hungry capitalist
(11:07):
villain Max Shrek. So no I mentioned, of course, not
even though that was really really one of the like that. Honestly,
between her and Dany DeVito and Christopher Walkin, I remembered
Michelle Peiffer in the movie. Yeah, and that's what a
lot of people seem to say when I tell them
when I would say we're doing this episode, and they
would have meted the iconic caplan like um. And also,
(11:28):
I just want to mention my favorite part of this
Amazon description is that power is in quotes because he's
there's a power plant involves if you've seen it in
a Marvel not Marvel, a d C movie for sure.
Because also the original Batman series had all of the
kind of uh puns. Oh, so I think it kind
(11:52):
of gave a lineage to that. Well, yeah, they definitely
leaned in in this one. I haven't seen, so disclaimer,
I've seen all of these era Batman movies. I've seen
all the Christopher Nolan ones, but I saw them all
in one very drunken day, so I only remember bits
and pieces. Um. But Samantha, I did rewatch this one
(12:12):
for this show, so I have seen it, but I
do I ha got a sense that they really leaned
hard into those puns, right. I think the second one
was a little more because the first one was also
by Tim Burton, and I feel like you see the
same darkness, but the second one seems a little kitchier.
But to be fair, I guess you have that origin
story of Batman, so the darkness of you know, seeing
(12:32):
his parents die and all of that, and him coming
out to the community as you know, this vengeful hero,
but you do also have the joker of doing a
majority of the puns and being somewhat kitchy. As of
the second one, I think it's just kind of all happened.
And you did mention about the fact that there wasn't
many scenes with Keaton. Yeah, that's one of my favorite
(12:54):
parts of the movie. Actually, he's in like a fourth
of it. Um, he's really not about him in my opinion,
especially the first half. Yeah, it definitely was all the
origin stories for Catwoman, yes, and I love that. So
let's talk about Catwoman. So Michelle Phifer played her Selena
Kyle Um slash Catwoman, and when the movie starts, Selena
(13:16):
Kyle is the embodiment of the crazy cat lady. Um.
She's sort of frumpy and her outfit she has these
glasses on which we all know and the that meant, well,
it's still I guess means that. Yeah, people still use
that as a thing of like, unless you're doing library
esque type of thing. Librarians is still like the transformative moment. Yeahiculous.
(13:40):
And by the way, Michelle Phifer frumpy is an Oxymoronen.
It doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah, she says, I love it.
When she gets into her empty apartment, she says, honey,
I'm home. Oh I forgot I'm not married right. Um.
And she is the executive assistant slash secretary of Max
(14:02):
shrek Um, who is the ultimate sexist boss. He regularly
demeans her, He dismisses her, he humiliates her like publicly. Um.
When she speaks, she does so as though she doesn't
want to be heard, and she voices things in questions. Um.
After she what what does this? Christopher Baal can say,
(14:23):
we have a housebroken her yet and he leaves, and
then she calls herself a corn doll, herself like, look,
so stupid corn dog, um, which is a great friend.
I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna call everyone a corn dog.
I haven't heard that insult in a long time, and
I really appreciate it, especially coming from a shell fifer
and very funny. Um. And then this is around the
(14:44):
time where the Christmas present thing goes wrong and the
shell fighter gets attacked and it's held hostage by a
clown um and well, and he has like a taser
and Batman saves her and then kind of just leaves
because she's invisible at that point. Yeah, yea yea yeah.
(15:06):
And then she has to go back to work late
and she discovers that her boss is up to no good,
up to no good. Yeah, she's basically she's she's smart
enough to to be like, wait a minute, your power
plant is gonna suck power from the city. What's going on?
And then he's like, oh, you're very good at your job,
(15:27):
too good perhaps, um, and he pushes her out a
window and uh he yeah, in his mind, what value
did she have? A poor lonely woman. He just pushed
her out the window right. Yeah, and this is when
she becomes catwoman, I guess after a bunch of cats
(15:48):
walk all over her and one bites her. Yeah, we
do see her see it nibbling on her finger and
there's blood involved. Um. And so she I love this.
She goes she looks like a zombie. Um and she says, honey,
I'm holl again. Uh. And then she listens to her
answering machine and there are three messages on it, one
(16:11):
from her mother, one from her ex well basically her
boyfriend breaking up with her says his therapist said he
doesn't need an appendage anymore. Um. And then a third one,
which is from a perfume company that's basically pushing how
women's sexuality is their currency, which, by the way, as
a call back to her comic book roots as a
(16:33):
sex worker, um and um how capitalism profits off of that,
like the systemic kind of sexualization of gratification of women.
And also it's from her boss's company. It's her boss's
department store, so she really uh transforms. So she gets
(16:54):
um like black spray paint and starts spray praying her apartment.
By the way, it's like all pink and really kind
of girly. Well, there's stuffed animals. If we discussed there's
very much of a young young girl, right, trying to
grow up to be a woman. It was a transformation
to be a woman. Yeah. So she gets out of
black spray paint, spraying things down. She goes into her
(17:15):
her closet and pulls out a black jacket, um and
starts kind of frantically sewing it together to make this
cat suit. And I just want to like reiterate she
survived at tempted murder, returns home and thanks to herself
revenge but first outfit. Who does it through that? I mean,
(17:36):
you can't kick someone in a skirt, which is what
she's been wearing the entire time. Um. As part of
this transformation, her voice becomes deeper, kind of cat like
and purring. Um. She she has this sign, a neon
sign that said hello there, but she breaks it so
(17:57):
that instead says hell here, that's one of my face things.
Want that. It's very pink as well. It's a reminder, Yeah,
the sign is pink. Um. And I feel like this
scene is a very screw you to the white picket
fence kind of perfect life that we've a lot of
it has been told this is success, this is the
only way. Um. So yeah, she becomes overcome with a
(18:23):
self destructive desire for revenge. Um and and this way
she's a great mirror for Bruce Wayne's character. Where he
is all about justice, she is all about vengeance. Um.
He is a member of the wealthiest class. She decidedly
it's not. She is torn between, um, what she should
do and what she wants to do, between the tragedy
of her past and the potential to make the future
(18:44):
into something better. And Batman even says her at the
very end were the same split right down the center,
And yeah, I do like that. It's her origin story.
We see Batman saves her and then she stabs him,
which seems to be a criticism of the damsel in distress.
He offers her a fairy tale the ending women have
(19:05):
been taught to want, and she was like, oh, I
couldn't live with myself, and the scratches him in the
face and leaves a hook or a claw, leaves a claw.
She is not a sex object, or at least she
is that and something else. She is scary, unhinged and
a total nightmare. That crazy girl right if I would
put a live bird in her mouth for this movie
which he told me about. Yeah, and I was like,
(19:27):
oh my gosh, she actually did this. And Penguin, who
totally does objectify her, describes her as beauty and the
beast in one luscious Christmas gift back. Yeah. Also, he's
just disgusting in every way. Yeah. And when she they
kind of make a pact to work together to take
down Batman, and when she refuses his advances because in
(19:48):
his mind there was going to be this romantic sexual
component to them working together. And when she's she refuses
his advances, he says, you're setting out all the signals
to have you spade, and then he attacks her and
cost her one of her nine lives. Um. And also
of notes in this conversation, Penguin does he die He dies? Yeah,
(20:11):
he dies when he picks the cute umbrella at the end,
the feminine one which does nothing against the white, heteronormative
masculinity a batman. Yes. Uh. And also another line we
wanted to showcases when Catwoman, one of the first things
she does is break into the department store by her
(20:33):
boss h and these two guards see her and she's
in this very sexual, sexualized outfit, very sexy, and one
of them says, oh, I don't know whether to attack
or take her home? Uh or what movie says I'm
in love anyway, basically I should I attack her or
trying to get with her? And Catwoman says, you men
(20:55):
always confusing your pistols with your privates, very soldiery, like
too yes, and then she just blows up the department.
She doesn't steal jewelry, leave, yeah, doesn't killing body yet yet,
and she that's when she gets the whip her weapon. Um.
And then when Batman attacks her, she says something like
(21:19):
how dare you? I'm a woman, but then immediately strikes
back and finishes her thought with as I was saying,
I'm a woman and can't be taken for granted. Life's
a bitch now, so am I? Hell yeah, yeah, she
really leans hard. I felt like into the hysterical label
that has so long been used against women. She just
(21:40):
went for it. You're gonna call me that, okay, cat lady,
I'm away crazy cat lady exactly. Oh yeah, And I
just want to say talk about some us t unresolved
sexual tension. I did read a lot of accounts from
people who saw this when they were maybe adolescents, and
we're saying that it was a real formative. It really
(22:00):
was her licking his face alongs huh yeah, yeah, yeah,
um and then yeah after your Batman kind of offers
her this fairy tale ending. Um, she refuses and instead
she dies getting her revenge on Shrek. But she has
one life left, so maybe she didn't die. And you
(22:21):
see spoiler alert? Are you just see here at the end?
Do you? I don't remember. I remember he gets out
of the car and he looking at the bat sign.
Oh is she Yes? You were the one that called
it out. I was checked out, friend. Alright. So when
this movie came out, it was in the middle of
the third wave feminism, and some people have interpreted Catwoman's
(22:41):
storyline as a feminist awaking and finding identity. I would
agree with that. One of her first acts as Catwoman
is rescuing a woman from rape and then brating that
woman for acting like a victim. And she's not learning
to be a hero. She's just enraged and knocking and
looking to break the patriarchal system. She's angry at every
one who participated it in her mind allows to continue
(23:03):
it so as she says, you make it easy, don't
you always waiting for some batman to save you? I
am catwoman? Hear me roar. Yeah. That was the first
thing she did when she got out. And she even
says to the potential victim, the man attacking her, go
easy on me. It's my first time. Yes, yes, because
(23:25):
he was like what So. Also, perhaps she's yelling at
her past self who she's saved by batman early on
in the movie when we were talking about with the
circus people. Um, And she takes the taste from that
attacker and later weaponizes it against her enemies, which she
did actually actually use on that clown as well, but
he was already out right she uses it at the end,
she like puts it in her changue kisses Christopher walk in. Um.
(23:50):
So like she's kind of yeah, she's weaponizing her sexuality.
I guess you could read it that way, um. And
then taking this weapon from people who would do her
harm and using it against against them, right, because he
did try to have the last word and tell her
she's fired. He tries to kill her and runs out
of bullets with two of her lives remaining, right, right,
(24:14):
and yes, we do have to talk about her outfit. Um.
It is perhaps one of the most forfeitting outfits ever
to grace the big screen. Um. Pieces of shiny black
leather stretched over her body and stable together as if
to represent the fragile nature of her psyche that she's
barely being whole held together. Um. And the whip, of course, UM.
(24:37):
So the whip being more about punishing and pain than
about killing. Um. And there was definitely some misogyny in
the way critics wrote about about her, the shellfifer and
the outfit. Um. Here's an example from the rolling Stone.
Off to the side. Michael Keaton aka Bruce Wayne A
(24:58):
ka Batman was enjoying the hell out of the moment.
Oh it was tasty. Here was mrs two time Oscar nominee,
mrs Actors Actor, mrs total get it into takes professional,
held and checked by a few pounds of wet second
latex in a pair of pointy ears. That's a weird comment. Yeah. Um,
(25:18):
they had to govern Michelle Peiffer and Baby Bowder before
she donned the suit, which they then vacuum packed. Yeah.
She just recently talked about it during an interview and
about how awful it was, and painful it was for her.
So Catwomen outfits ranked so many thought pieces on the
cat suit. There's different variations. Some see it as embracing
the sexual objectification of women and weaponizing it, or maybe
(25:41):
rejecting males superhero gard and thus the patriarchy and leaning
in hard to the feminine. So Julie Newmar, who I
really I watched growing up and I'm not that old,
so I was, I was watching reruns. Just want to
put that out there before they think, come, it's okay
to be that old. I'm not that old. I want
to put that out there. Julie Newmar, who played Catwoman
(26:03):
in her first on screen appearance in the nineteen sixties,
wrote in a letter to The Huffing to Post every
girl is a cow woman. There will always be a catwoman.
Catwoman is forever, and her costume was perhaps the most
tame and the most kitten like. It was a black,
sparkly suit reminiscent of a courset around the waist, complete
with a gold belt, and of course cattiers Lee Mary
(26:25):
whether who was in the movie or pretty much the
same thing when she played her. And then there's a
the kit who took over from newmar Uh. She wore
the same thing but adjusted the placement of the necklace,
pulling it higher. And then of course there's Hallie Berry,
who played the titular character and Catwoman. She wore a
push up bra, leather gloves, whips, tight leather pants, and
(26:47):
as pretty much it's very dominatory Dominatrix. I have not
seen this film. I've seen parts of it, including the
infamous catnep scene, but I know it's about an addictive
beauty cream targeted towards women and playing on the fact
that all of these high beauty standards we placed on women,
so we probably would have a lot to say about it.
I also know Sharon Stone is the one behind the
(27:09):
beauty cream. People are like, don't be telling me Sharon
Stone is not hot, even if she's older, Okay, right, Yes,
she is beautiful and hot. And also this is the
one that won the Razzie. It is considered it was
considered one of the worst films ever created. But I
think also there was a conversation about it being really
heavy handed and it was trying way too hard. I mean,
(27:31):
one of the main characters was named Affiliate Powers. Affiliate
Powers that's come on, y'all, we can do a little better.
But I guess it could be I was gonna say
it could be that we're just looking at a different
what lens, because all the other ones are fairly heavy
handed as well. Whether it's some kind of pun whether
some kind of like over the top whatever. But it
just yeah, it wasn't not a great movie. It made
(27:53):
me sad. So you've seen it. I've seen parts of it. Okay,
finish it, Okay, alright, just clar f. Just neither of
us have seen it, but from what we have seen,
it left someone to be let some things to be desired. Um.
And then Anne Hathaway's version, Um, this one. She was
meant to be the most functional. Her outfit was meant
to be the most functional. It's a black leather stealth
(28:14):
suit and the cat ears were the points of her
night vision fancy crime goggles. Her stilettos were weapons. I
think I've mentioned on the show before. I did used
to cosplay her, and sometimes I still do. And my
experience was everybody loved that costume, but they also love
telling me that they didn't like Anne Hathaway. Um. Poor an. Yeah,
we've talked about that on this show before. Our people
(28:36):
just don't like Ann Hathaway because they see her as prissy.
She's vegan person nickitty, but really it seems me she
just knows what she wants well as Gonna saying Natalie
would would be the same. She's a vegan all of
those things, but she's not as disliked seemingly as Anne
Hathaway is. Maybe that's another perfect another episode. And then
(29:00):
we wanted to end with this for our discussion of Catwoman.
Glorias Dynham's review of The Dark Night and and Hathaway's
performance read I saw the Dark Knight Returns last night,
and among other things, Catwoman is a feminist superhero with
the storyline and transformation of her own plus class consciousness,
a girl buddy, equal skills with the Batman equipment, and
an apartment of her own in old Town and she
(29:21):
gets the guy. So yeah, that's that's kind of our
little kid. Uh. Batman returns chat Woman extra Christmas. We
do have a little bit more for your very brief
run through, but first we have a quick break for
word from our sponsor and we're back. Thank you spots here,
(29:54):
and we're back a little bit with Iron Man three. Yes,
I'm gonna blaze through this of minutes as I've seen
this one too, and I'm not gonna lie. I have
a hard time I remembering all of this. Okay, Well,
I got you, I got you, all right. So we
opened on Blue by Il six five the years, Tony
Stark is about to bang a scientist named Maya Hanson
played by Rebecca Hall who has this plan all about
(30:17):
regenerating plants or something. Um. He stands up an awkward
all just Killian played by Guy Pierce uh And then yes,
we skipped to the present m c U timeline post
Avengers a symbol, and Tony has built a bunch of
Iron Man suits and it's Christmas time. One of the
first scenes is him trying on his new Iron Man
(30:38):
suit to jingle Bells kind of a sassy version of
jingle Bells um. And Tony is clearly distant and struggling
with maybe PTSD definitely anxiety attacks post New York City
and the Avengers um, which is impacting his relationship with
his wife, Pepper Pots. I didn't think so, but a
(31:00):
lot of places his significant other okay, because they didn't
get married until after the first that the wedding was
in the one You're right, so significant other why I
put that? Well, I put that originally, but then everywhere
I was reading said wife, and I was like, maybe
they got divorced and then got remarried anyway, whatever, Now
(31:22):
not so awkward and pretty handsome all Killian shows up
to meet Pepper and is very flirtatious with her. Uh.
Tony's head of security, suspicious, stumbles on mysterious plot gets
severely injured. At the same time, you have a string
of terrorist attacks orchestrated by a villain known as the Mandarin,
and this has the press clamoring after Tony Stark ok
iron Man asking him if he's going to do something
(31:44):
about it, and angry about what happened to his head
of security, Happy Start challenges the Mandarin on live TV,
gives away his home address, which I feel like it's
pretty obvious where he lives, but whatever, I guess it's
the challenge. I don't know. Uh So, when he arrives home,
Pepper is packing and also he has once again given
her a gift that she clearly doesn't want, a huge
(32:05):
rabbit custom made um. At this point, Maya shows up
at the door, and it's like, hey, I think my
boss works for the Mandarin And then all these missiles
start probably into their house, and Tony is able to
save Pepper and Maya Henson Rebecca Hall's character by putting
them in some of his Iron Man suits and blasting
them out. Uh. He manages to escape, but not before
(32:27):
his suit takes major damage and is pretty much nonfunctional
When he lands in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee.
As he's trying to repair a suit, he meets a
young boy who promises to help him secure some supplies
because everyone thinks Tony is dead. Um and then all right.
He finds out about this project called Extremists. Extremists that
Maya was working on with Killian that experimented on injured
(32:51):
soldiers to regenerate lost limbs or other injuries. But it
left these soldiers unstable, like I will explode spontaneously unstable. Uh.
Iron Man. He's like trying to figure out what he's
gonna do, how he's gonna save the day. He's on
the verge of a panic attack when the kid says,
build something. You build things, right, just go build something,
(33:13):
So he goes back to his roots um and As
this is happening, Pepper is captured by Maya, who was
working for Killian and is used in the extremest experiment um.
Killian even tells her that she is a trophy when
she's strapped into this pot in a sports braw and
tight pants. Then Tony is captured after he discovers that
(33:36):
the Mandarin is just an English actor pretending to be
a terrorist. Um and this is a big twist in
the movie because he's a huge villain in the comics
UM Tony is. He attempts to break out, but then
uh Maya tries to save him when he fails, and
then Killian just shoots her instead of listening to her
(33:57):
because she's like, he won't be able to solve your
problems without me, I'm your side. Aientists and he just
kills her. Um And also the President has been captured,
and this all culminates in a battle between a superhuman
Killian and his Crony's Tony, his pal Iron Patriot played
by Don Cheetle, and a bunch of automated iron suits,
with the President and Pepper's lives hanging literally in balance.
(34:18):
The President is saved, but Pepper falls into a pit
of lava, seemingly to her death killing is about to
kill Tony, but then Pepper rises up from the death
of Hell metaphorically uh, and now as all temporarily superpowered,
she does some as kicking in like two minutes or less,
uh than they kick us together. Tony destroys his Iron
Man suits and removes his arch reactor. Day is saved.
(34:40):
It's complicated. Well, I think he just really wanted to
do a plantline Like I did this before I rewatched it,
and I was like, oh boy, there's so many threads here. Um, alright,
so let's talk about action figures. Lets. You and I
had disgustioned and you were telling me a lot about this,
so as you talked to about In the Female Action
(35:01):
Figures episode, Rebecca Hall's character was originally meant to be
the main villain, but the director was pressured by Studio
Exacts that a female villain action figure wouldn't sell. And
I'm sure those Guy Pierce action figures left off the shelf.
Right um and Marvel Entertainment CEO at the time, Permacter said,
there was an early draft of Ironman three where we
(35:21):
had an inkling of a problem, which is that we
had a female character who was the villain in the draft.
We had finished the script and we were given no
holes barred mimos saying that cannot stand. And we've changed
our minds because after consulting, we've decided that those toys
won't sell as well if it is female. So we
had to change the entire scriptes because of toymaking. Now
that's not Figy, that's Marvel Corporate. But now you don't
(35:42):
have the problem anymore. Yeah, So it was really frustrating
I think for a lot of people involved in the film.
I know, uh our down Jr. It was like, no,
you gotta give it more of a role and a
holiday accepted it on kind of a different which happens
a lot unfortunately, and especially to women unfortunately. Uh Yeah,
(36:03):
you can see her action figure episode from more on
that um. And then I also wanted to say an
interesting thing about Pepper pots As. While she spends most
of her time being damseled in this movie and every
other Iron Man um, although she is painted, is an
extremely business navvy, incompetent woman. According to some Internet so
she kills the most people. She kills more people than
(36:24):
Iron Man on screen, at least she kills Ironmonger and
Killian iron Man has only killed Ebony Ma on screen. Um.
And then yeah, I could come back and talk about
her character because she's painted is sort of a nag,
like she's never happy with Tony Prow. Yeah. Well that's
another thing is a lot of people can't separate her
(36:46):
from Gwenda Paltrow. Um, she is used to make Tony
feel jealous by the villain. She does spend most of
the movie distress. She's captured, tortured, and experimented on. It's
bait for Tony. And then there's a lot of talk
about fake feminism and how just because she got to
kick gas for two minutes or less that it's like
(37:07):
exacts or pointing to it. Look how feminist we are,
but it ignores everything else, which was kind of the
complaint for Endgame. Uh is it endgame or is it in? Yeah? Yeah,
what is wrong with you today? I've seen a lot
of movies, so with End Game where they have that
one giant scene but they're like, hey, look, women, it's
(37:28):
just so token. Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. Um. And
then Tony the character as well, I mean he's a womanizer.
He says a lot of things in the movie that
are not great. Um, there's like a beauty pageant that's
not explained. There's all these women in bikinis running around
such as things like that. Um, and then random trivia.
(37:50):
I didn't know this. Robert Downey Jr. Got injured in
the middle of filming and was down for the count
for six weeks. And since they couldn't hold up production
for that long, the creators made up a completely digital
version of him for shot that didn't require dialogue our closeouts,
so you can try to find the fake Tony Stark
in there. Um. But yeah, that was just a quick
look at another superhero holiday movie. Just a minute, you
(38:11):
just want to talk about the m c U. I did,
I did, And we do have a tiny, tiny bit
more about the m c U. But first one more
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
(38:33):
Thank you sponsor, And we're back with a special mention
Spider Verse. Spider Man into the Spider Verse. So y'all,
I'm gonna, I really, I'm gonna live stream you know,
reaction the joy I feel watching that movie. It's exhilarating.
It makes my face hurt. It's like you're watching it
for the first time, the shock that you go through
with the whole time. Um. And yes, I was this
(38:58):
is the movie I chose for a movie rust the
podcast fire Friend Chuck um. And eventually he had the
He was like, Andy, we've got to stop talking. But
I haven't told you about the other things. The frame rate.
Let me talk more about the frame rate. Um. But
I did want to mention it because it's one of
my favorite movies of all time, and it takes place
at Christmas. Um. If you remember, Chris Pines o G
(39:23):
Spider Man is featured on a holiday album in the movie,
and the cast actually recorded several holiday songs that you
can listen to and by if you want, um, including
Spiky it's cold outside, swinging around the Mistletoe, Silent Night,
You're welcome, joy to the world that I just saved,
Spidy the Snowman is beginning to look a lot like
a non denominational holiday. Yeah. I think the only part
(39:44):
that I realized it was holiday was because that song
randomly comes on in the security guards room and that's it. Yeah,
but it's a holiday. There's snow, there's Christmas trees. If
you look, Um, it's diverse, It's gorgeous. It has fleshed
out female bad as vulnerable characters like Spider, Gwyn Penny Parker,
Aunt May Doc what a great villain? So Phil Lord
(40:07):
and Christopher Miller's goal for the film inspire young people
to become heroes, inspire grown ups to help them do it,
and remind us all that you don't need to be
bitten by radio active Spider to do your part. You
are powerful and we are counting on you. Yes, I'm
pointing to Annie right now. I want does say not
you necessarily probably beta work speaking No, no, no, no,
(40:28):
they're counting on you necessarily. Um. But yeah, that's just
what we wanted to say about some less traditional holiday. Yeah,
so there you go. Are not so Christmas Christmas movies,
which is the way I like it. I will tell
you once again, I do do a lot of Like
I said, do do a lot of horror movies during
this time because I do not like not a fan
(40:50):
of the season. I'm not. I'm not trying to be
uh a grinch, but you know, you have to cope
with things the way you can cope with it. So
let us know you're not so Christmas. See Christmas movie recommendations.
And I would also consider die Hard, which I know
has been a debate action movie that takes place at Christmas. Yes,
and a lot of the Harry Potters as Christmas movies
(41:12):
as well. Yeah, we watched you know, definitely a little
bit the first The first two are the ones that
I would consideras Happy Christmas. Harry, Yeah, I think he
does it is Christmas at one point in definitely one though,
is it? Ye, when he goes to visit That's right,
That's right. So yeah, let us know your recommendations because
I would love to know more and to watch more
(41:33):
movies that are not Yes, the Netflix movies that I'm seeing,
I don't. I don't want to watch those, Yes, And
let us know what we should do for our next
feminist movie Friday. And also if you have any feminist
movie thoughts. I know we moved through those partiquately, but
so if you have any thoughts about them that we
missed it, we would love to hear them. You can
email us at Stuff Media, Mom Stuff at iHeart media
(41:55):
dot com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom'sff Podcast.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening. Steph, I'm Never Told You's a
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts
from iheartradiovi is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows Jingle Bills, Batman's Bells,
(42:17):
Wedding Maid and Egg. No, ok okay
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffman.
Never told your protection of I Heart Radio's house stuff works.
It's time for another feminist movie Friday. We're gonna make
this I think so. Wait, this is because it's coming
(00:26):
out on Friday night, that we're watching it on Friday.
It's however it fits into the lives of whoever is listening. Yes,
it should accomplish on Fridays. But if you don't watch
it on a Friday, that's totally cool. If you don't
watch it, ever, I thought, I'm totally cool listen. Yeah,
well no, no, I don't want to movie. Okay, Well yeah, see,
(00:47):
there's a lot of things you could make this work on. However,
use about you know what sences we're supposed to be
using right now? That seems to be a general confusion
we have has been general confused. Um, so I got
to choose the last movie for feminist movie Friday, and
so this one it was more of a Samantha choice.
(01:11):
I thought it was a team effort because we were
both trying to figure out what movie is Holiday, but
without being to holiday, right, because, like we talked about
in our emotional labor holiday aged episode. Samantha's not a
big holiday fan. And um, back when I was sort
of semi host less, I did a holiday movie overview
(01:32):
with my friend Katie. It was mostly Hallmark movies. Hi Katie,
she's an expert in those, um, but we thought we'd
tackle some lesser discussed holiday movies today so that you
this is more than one film, right, But to be fair, yes,
the movie that I chose, it's very much like even
though they might not be seeing holiday carols, there's a
(01:54):
lot of holiday decorations in the entire movie. Yes, And
so we've built it up here we go, Oh, we're
talking about Batman returns. Yeah, with a little bit of
Iron Man three a little bit and a little bit
of Spider Man into the spiderse a little um. I
would like to say, though, we will be coming back
to the craft and the many suggestions you guys had,
(02:15):
who decided to go ahead and start our holiday addition
with a little bit of feminist turn again. I don't
like holidays, Um, Hello, I kind of enjoy some holiday movies.
I already said that I like Love actually and that
is an absolute holiday movie. But that was just two
on the nose for Yeah, well, and a lot of
(02:35):
them as we discussed I think in the past past episode. UM,
hard to have much feminist discussion in them unless we're
just like, well, this is all a problem here. Um.
And surprisingly Batman returns, there's a lot to be said, Yeah,
you're surprised. And somehow we wedged a viewing in for
(02:56):
both Batman returns and Spider Man in to the Spider
Verse on Sunday. Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness. And
then we had like Harry Potter in there, so it
was all night. It wasn't very long. Also, I feel like, uh,
I missed an opportunity to have the live interaction commentary
(03:17):
that you put on Annie. It's almost as entertaining as
the actual movie. And so if you guys ever want
to treat if I could ever live stream you watching
Spider Man into the Spider Verse, and it will never
be a clip of the movie. It's just you squealing
at the movie the entire time. It's Oh man, I
(03:39):
had about Curby dots Curby dots the line and it
was so so A friend Joe was there and the
two of you were just having a backup board and
I kept looking about be going you guys are the
worst people to watch movies. Yeah. I really couldn't contain
my enthusiasm. I appreciate that you let me have that. Oh,
(04:00):
I don't know. One day we're gonna do it again
and I'm gonna live stream for everyone. I was very excited.
I didn't know we were going to get to watch that.
That was kind of a bonus little treat. Yes, Um,
so we will return to that at the very end.
And if I want to do spoiled Saturdays where we
just have a take on something that's really recent and
if you don't want to be spoiled, then don't listen.
(04:21):
We could talk about The Joker like that we talked
about previously, and then Midsummer I have Yeah, I have
so many horror movies. Please let me talk about this. Um.
But okay, today we're talking about Batman returns. That turns yeah,
and UM. For this, I did want to do a
really quick overview of Catwoman because she's pretty much what
we're gonna be talking about in terms of this movie. Um,
(04:45):
and she's been around a long long time. I think
definitely future episode because there's a lot to be said
about her. But quickly, she first appeared in nineteen forty,
meaning that she's been through the first, second, third, and
fourth if you want to call that waves of feminism.
She was designed by Jerry Robinson and Bob Kane. Only
three women have written for her so far, and she's
(05:08):
only ever been drawn by men. If you're wondering, um,
she was one of the first ever female comic book superheroes.
In quotes, um, her name is Selina Kyle, and she's
a cat burglar in a cat suit. She's often painted
as an anti hero and sometimes a villain and sometimes
a hero, and this allows her to operate in a
(05:29):
space where she's tough to pin down. Um. She's more
than Batman's sometimes love interest. Over the years, she's been
played by a handful of people, from Michelle Peiffer to
Halle Berry to Ann Hathaway and I think I was
telling you, Samath. I'm pretty sure most of the mainstream
women who have played her have all been nominated for oscars.
Are one oscars so hey yeah, um and yes, And
(05:54):
most depictions she is highly sexualized. Her outfit is similar
to what a dominatrix would wear, down to the whip,
which is usually her weapon of choice, and then there's
this quote. Um Bob Kane once said of Catwoman, I
felt that women were feline creatures and men were more
like dogs. While dogs are faithful and friendly, cats are cool, detached,
(06:18):
and unreliable. I felt much warmer with dogs around me.
Cats are as hard to understand as women are. Men
feel more sure of themselves with a male friend than
a woman. You always need to keep women at arms length.
We don't want anyone taking over our souls, and women
have a habit of doing that. So there's a love
resentment thing with women. I guess women will feel that
(06:39):
I'm being chauvinistic to speak this way, but I do
feel that I've had better relationships with male friends than women.
With women wants thro romance is over somehow. They never
remain my friends, of course not. So this is the
person who created a Catwoman. That might give you some
insight into the character. This also might she was created
(07:02):
in part to combat talk of homo eroticism between Batman
and Robin and to reinforce Batman's heterosexuality. Yeah, Catwoman was
banned from the comics in the fifties because of the
comic code that dictated that crime should never be seen
to pay and Catwoman was not acting like how a
woman should behave Oh no, and she didn't return until
(07:24):
the nineteen sixties. She was originally played by Julie Numar
in the nineteen sixties TV series with Adam west Um,
who was also then later on played by Eartha kit
in the final season of that series, apparently because Julie
Numar was in a movie contract. She has different origin stories,
so the first being known as the cat who carries
(07:44):
the whip and has high stakes thievery. Yeah. Um to
a stewardess with amnesia that turned to crime that then
later assisted Batman in stopping crime. Uh, to the now
Little Nothing, Now to the what We're talking About ninety
two version of the Revenge speaking Receptionist Assistant an Assistant
(08:07):
um too and Hathaway's original take on the high stage
thief right. And throughout these various incarnations, one thing that
has remained steady is that she is sexualized and the
power her body has over others. However, since she is
catering to the male gaze, it's really hard to say
what is power and what is objectification? Um and I
(08:29):
have felt this when I have a dressed as her, Um,
because I have had a lot of super gross comments
made to me, UM, including one that really stands out
where this guy said that I quote knew exactly what
I was doing by addressing as her rape. It was gross.
It's very comment. Uh. Side note here according to some
in the original series, um, and then when we see
(08:51):
it again in both Batman Returns and Dark Knight, the
love story link between Batman and Catwoman existed. However, when
Arthur Kit portrayed the role as Catwoman. Because she was
African American and because Adam West is was white, writers
and creators felt it was too taboo and not suitable
for them to be a on screen romance, so they
changed that story to being bat Girl and Batman, which
(09:14):
is yeah, bad girl. There was also a boat Woman
who was introduced when Catwoman was off the stage, who
was like see heater normativity family. She was like the mom,
the boring mom, and then Batman is the dad Robin
nurser side. And I remember because I did watch the series,
I don't know. I guess I really like the Adam
(09:36):
West series growing up, where bad Girl was very the
girl next door while Catwoman was the bad girl. Yeah.
So the plot. How would you describe this little couple
so many things? Because you know this is the beginning
where they were having more than one and I hera
villain into the stories. So Batman returns in the Batman's sequel,
(10:00):
directed by Tim Barton with a script by Daniel Waters.
This is the same dude that did the script for Heathers,
which any you acknowledged. Yes, and that's gonna be another
movie I think we need to visit. Um. Michael Keaton
plays Bruce Wayne Batman, who was doing his best to
protect Gotham from a corrupt industrialist named Max Shrek, who
(10:21):
was played by the wonderful Christopher Walkins I browsed so
good and a crime boss known as the Penguin by
the who else could it be? But Danny de Vito like,
I don't know if there's gonna be any one who
could replace that. And it takes place Tatada at Christmas time.
A giant tree at the opening scene, the Christmas tree lighting,
(10:43):
Yes that's yes, that's true, presents all that yes to
bring in all of the crazy clowns. Apparently circuses something
had to do with it, as well as Zoo's Okay,
so according to the Amazon description, Yeah, let's see what
how amazons Batman Kate Chris later it's pitted against demented,
refinous penguin, pitiful orphaned, psychopathic freak, and power hungry capitalist
(11:07):
villain Max Shrek. So no I mentioned, of course, not
even though that was really really one of the like that. Honestly,
between her and Dany DeVito and Christopher Walkin, I remembered
Michelle Peiffer in the movie. Yeah, and that's what a
lot of people seem to say when I tell them
when I would say we're doing this episode, and they
would have meted the iconic caplan like um. And also,
(11:28):
I just want to mention my favorite part of this
Amazon description is that power is in quotes because he's
there's a power plant involves if you've seen it in
a Marvel not Marvel, a d C movie for sure.
Because also the original Batman series had all of the
kind of uh puns. Oh, so I think it kind
(11:52):
of gave a lineage to that. Well, yeah, they definitely
leaned in in this one. I haven't seen, so disclaimer,
I've seen all of these era Batman movies. I've seen
all the Christopher Nolan ones, but I saw them all
in one very drunken day, so I only remember bits
and pieces. Um. But Samantha, I did rewatch this one
(12:12):
for this show, so I have seen it, but I
do I ha got a sense that they really leaned
hard into those puns, right. I think the second one
was a little more because the first one was also
by Tim Burton, and I feel like you see the
same darkness, but the second one seems a little kitchier.
But to be fair, I guess you have that origin
story of Batman, so the darkness of you know, seeing
(12:32):
his parents die and all of that, and him coming
out to the community as you know, this vengeful hero,
but you do also have the joker of doing a
majority of the puns and being somewhat kitchy. As of
the second one, I think it's just kind of all happened.
And you did mention about the fact that there wasn't
many scenes with Keaton. Yeah, that's one of my favorite
(12:54):
parts of the movie. Actually, he's in like a fourth
of it. Um, he's really not about him in my opinion,
especially the first half. Yeah, it definitely was all the
origin stories for Catwoman, yes, and I love that. So
let's talk about Catwoman. So Michelle Phifer played her Selena
Kyle Um slash Catwoman, and when the movie starts, Selena
(13:16):
Kyle is the embodiment of the crazy cat lady. Um.
She's sort of frumpy and her outfit she has these
glasses on which we all know and the that meant, well,
it's still I guess means that. Yeah, people still use
that as a thing of like, unless you're doing library
esque type of thing. Librarians is still like the transformative moment. Yeahiculous.
(13:40):
And by the way, Michelle Phifer frumpy is an Oxymoronen.
It doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah, she says, I love it.
When she gets into her empty apartment, she says, honey,
I'm home. Oh I forgot I'm not married right. Um.
And she is the executive assistant slash secretary of Max
(14:02):
shrek Um, who is the ultimate sexist boss. He regularly
demeans her, He dismisses her, he humiliates her like publicly. Um.
When she speaks, she does so as though she doesn't
want to be heard, and she voices things in questions. Um.
After she what what does this? Christopher Baal can say,
(14:23):
we have a housebroken her yet and he leaves, and
then she calls herself a corn doll, herself like, look,
so stupid corn dog, um, which is a great friend.
I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna call everyone a corn dog.
I haven't heard that insult in a long time, and
I really appreciate it, especially coming from a shell fifer
and very funny. Um. And then this is around the
(14:44):
time where the Christmas present thing goes wrong and the
shell fighter gets attacked and it's held hostage by a
clown um and well, and he has like a taser
and Batman saves her and then kind of just leaves
because she's invisible at that point. Yeah, yea yea yeah.
(15:06):
And then she has to go back to work late
and she discovers that her boss is up to no good,
up to no good. Yeah, she's basically she's she's smart
enough to to be like, wait a minute, your power
plant is gonna suck power from the city. What's going on?
And then he's like, oh, you're very good at your job,
(15:27):
too good perhaps, um, and he pushes her out a
window and uh he yeah, in his mind, what value
did she have? A poor lonely woman. He just pushed
her out the window right. Yeah, and this is when
she becomes catwoman, I guess after a bunch of cats
(15:48):
walk all over her and one bites her. Yeah, we
do see her see it nibbling on her finger and
there's blood involved. Um. And so she I love this.
She goes she looks like a zombie. Um and she says, honey,
I'm holl again. Uh. And then she listens to her
answering machine and there are three messages on it, one
(16:11):
from her mother, one from her ex well basically her
boyfriend breaking up with her says his therapist said he
doesn't need an appendage anymore. Um. And then a third one,
which is from a perfume company that's basically pushing how
women's sexuality is their currency, which, by the way, as
a call back to her comic book roots as a
(16:33):
sex worker, um and um how capitalism profits off of that,
like the systemic kind of sexualization of gratification of women.
And also it's from her boss's company. It's her boss's
department store, so she really uh transforms. So she gets
(16:54):
um like black spray paint and starts spray praying her apartment.
By the way, it's like all pink and really kind
of girly. Well, there's stuffed animals. If we discussed there's
very much of a young young girl, right, trying to
grow up to be a woman. It was a transformation
to be a woman. Yeah. So she gets out of
black spray paint, spraying things down. She goes into her
(17:15):
her closet and pulls out a black jacket, um and
starts kind of frantically sewing it together to make this
cat suit. And I just want to like reiterate she
survived at tempted murder, returns home and thanks to herself
revenge but first outfit. Who does it through that? I mean,
(17:36):
you can't kick someone in a skirt, which is what
she's been wearing the entire time. Um. As part of
this transformation, her voice becomes deeper, kind of cat like
and purring. Um. She she has this sign, a neon
sign that said hello there, but she breaks it so
(17:57):
that instead says hell here, that's one of my face things.
Want that. It's very pink as well. It's a reminder, Yeah,
the sign is pink. Um. And I feel like this
scene is a very screw you to the white picket
fence kind of perfect life that we've a lot of
it has been told this is success, this is the
only way. Um. So yeah, she becomes overcome with a
(18:23):
self destructive desire for revenge. Um and and this way
she's a great mirror for Bruce Wayne's character. Where he
is all about justice, she is all about vengeance. Um.
He is a member of the wealthiest class. She decidedly
it's not. She is torn between, um, what she should
do and what she wants to do, between the tragedy
of her past and the potential to make the future
(18:44):
into something better. And Batman even says her at the
very end were the same split right down the center,
And yeah, I do like that. It's her origin story.
We see Batman saves her and then she stabs him,
which seems to be a criticism of the damsel in distress.
He offers her a fairy tale the ending women have
(19:05):
been taught to want, and she was like, oh, I
couldn't live with myself, and the scratches him in the
face and leaves a hook or a claw, leaves a claw.
She is not a sex object, or at least she
is that and something else. She is scary, unhinged and
a total nightmare. That crazy girl right if I would
put a live bird in her mouth for this movie
which he told me about. Yeah, and I was like,
(19:27):
oh my gosh, she actually did this. And Penguin, who
totally does objectify her, describes her as beauty and the
beast in one luscious Christmas gift back. Yeah. Also, he's
just disgusting in every way. Yeah. And when she they
kind of make a pact to work together to take
down Batman, and when she refuses his advances because in
(19:48):
his mind there was going to be this romantic sexual
component to them working together. And when she's she refuses
his advances, he says, you're setting out all the signals
to have you spade, and then he attacks her and
cost her one of her nine lives. Um. And also
of notes in this conversation, Penguin does he die He dies? Yeah,
(20:11):
he dies when he picks the cute umbrella at the end,
the feminine one which does nothing against the white, heteronormative
masculinity a batman. Yes. Uh. And also another line we
wanted to showcases when Catwoman, one of the first things
she does is break into the department store by her
(20:33):
boss h and these two guards see her and she's
in this very sexual, sexualized outfit, very sexy, and one
of them says, oh, I don't know whether to attack
or take her home? Uh or what movie says I'm
in love anyway, basically I should I attack her or
trying to get with her? And Catwoman says, you men
(20:55):
always confusing your pistols with your privates, very soldiery, like
too yes, and then she just blows up the department.
She doesn't steal jewelry, leave, yeah, doesn't killing body yet yet,
and she that's when she gets the whip her weapon. Um.
And then when Batman attacks her, she says something like
(21:19):
how dare you? I'm a woman, but then immediately strikes
back and finishes her thought with as I was saying,
I'm a woman and can't be taken for granted. Life's
a bitch now, so am I? Hell yeah, yeah, she
really leans hard. I felt like into the hysterical label
that has so long been used against women. She just
(21:40):
went for it. You're gonna call me that, okay, cat lady,
I'm away crazy cat lady exactly. Oh yeah, And I
just want to say talk about some us t unresolved
sexual tension. I did read a lot of accounts from
people who saw this when they were maybe adolescents, and
we're saying that it was a real formative. It really
(22:00):
was her licking his face alongs huh yeah, yeah, yeah,
um and then yeah after your Batman kind of offers
her this fairy tale ending. Um, she refuses and instead
she dies getting her revenge on Shrek. But she has
one life left, so maybe she didn't die. And you
(22:21):
see spoiler alert? Are you just see here at the end?
Do you? I don't remember. I remember he gets out
of the car and he looking at the bat sign.
Oh is she Yes? You were the one that called
it out. I was checked out, friend. Alright. So when
this movie came out, it was in the middle of
the third wave feminism, and some people have interpreted Catwoman's
(22:41):
storyline as a feminist awaking and finding identity. I would
agree with that. One of her first acts as Catwoman
is rescuing a woman from rape and then brating that
woman for acting like a victim. And she's not learning
to be a hero. She's just enraged and knocking and
looking to break the patriarchal system. She's angry at every
one who participated it in her mind allows to continue
(23:03):
it so as she says, you make it easy, don't
you always waiting for some batman to save you? I
am catwoman? Hear me roar. Yeah. That was the first
thing she did when she got out. And she even
says to the potential victim, the man attacking her, go
easy on me. It's my first time. Yes, yes, because
(23:25):
he was like what So. Also, perhaps she's yelling at
her past self who she's saved by batman early on
in the movie when we were talking about with the
circus people. Um, And she takes the taste from that
attacker and later weaponizes it against her enemies, which she
did actually actually use on that clown as well, but
he was already out right she uses it at the end,
she like puts it in her changue kisses Christopher walk in. Um.
(23:50):
So like she's kind of yeah, she's weaponizing her sexuality.
I guess you could read it that way, um. And
then taking this weapon from people who would do her
harm and using it against against them, right, because he
did try to have the last word and tell her
she's fired. He tries to kill her and runs out
of bullets with two of her lives remaining, right, right,
(24:14):
and yes, we do have to talk about her outfit. Um.
It is perhaps one of the most forfeitting outfits ever
to grace the big screen. Um. Pieces of shiny black
leather stretched over her body and stable together as if
to represent the fragile nature of her psyche that she's
barely being whole held together. Um. And the whip, of course, UM.
(24:37):
So the whip being more about punishing and pain than
about killing. Um. And there was definitely some misogyny in
the way critics wrote about about her, the shellfifer and
the outfit. Um. Here's an example from the rolling Stone.
Off to the side. Michael Keaton aka Bruce Wayne A
(24:58):
ka Batman was enjoying the hell out of the moment.
Oh it was tasty. Here was mrs two time Oscar nominee,
mrs Actors Actor, mrs total get it into takes professional,
held and checked by a few pounds of wet second
latex in a pair of pointy ears. That's a weird comment. Yeah. Um,
(25:18):
they had to govern Michelle Peiffer and Baby Bowder before
she donned the suit, which they then vacuum packed. Yeah.
She just recently talked about it during an interview and
about how awful it was, and painful it was for her.
So Catwomen outfits ranked so many thought pieces on the
cat suit. There's different variations. Some see it as embracing
the sexual objectification of women and weaponizing it, or maybe
(25:41):
rejecting males superhero gard and thus the patriarchy and leaning
in hard to the feminine. So Julie Newmar, who I
really I watched growing up and I'm not that old,
so I was, I was watching reruns. Just want to
put that out there before they think, come, it's okay
to be that old. I'm not that old. I want
to put that out there. Julie Newmar, who played Catwoman
(26:03):
in her first on screen appearance in the nineteen sixties,
wrote in a letter to The Huffing to Post every
girl is a cow woman. There will always be a catwoman.
Catwoman is forever, and her costume was perhaps the most
tame and the most kitten like. It was a black,
sparkly suit reminiscent of a courset around the waist, complete
with a gold belt, and of course cattiers Lee Mary
(26:25):
whether who was in the movie or pretty much the
same thing when she played her. And then there's a
the kit who took over from newmar Uh. She wore
the same thing but adjusted the placement of the necklace,
pulling it higher. And then of course there's Hallie Berry,
who played the titular character and Catwoman. She wore a
push up bra, leather gloves, whips, tight leather pants, and
(26:47):
as pretty much it's very dominatory Dominatrix. I have not
seen this film. I've seen parts of it, including the
infamous catnep scene, but I know it's about an addictive
beauty cream targeted towards women and playing on the fact
that all of these high beauty standards we placed on women,
so we probably would have a lot to say about it.
I also know Sharon Stone is the one behind the
(27:09):
beauty cream. People are like, don't be telling me Sharon
Stone is not hot, even if she's older, Okay, right, Yes,
she is beautiful and hot. And also this is the
one that won the Razzie. It is considered it was
considered one of the worst films ever created. But I
think also there was a conversation about it being really
heavy handed and it was trying way too hard. I mean,
(27:31):
one of the main characters was named Affiliate Powers. Affiliate
Powers that's come on, y'all, we can do a little better.
But I guess it could be I was gonna say
it could be that we're just looking at a different
what lens, because all the other ones are fairly heavy
handed as well. Whether it's some kind of pun whether
some kind of like over the top whatever. But it
just yeah, it wasn't not a great movie. It made
(27:53):
me sad. So you've seen it. I've seen parts of it. Okay,
finish it, Okay, alright, just clar f. Just neither of
us have seen it, but from what we have seen,
it left someone to be let some things to be desired. Um.
And then Anne Hathaway's version, Um, this one. She was
meant to be the most functional. Her outfit was meant
to be the most functional. It's a black leather stealth
(28:14):
suit and the cat ears were the points of her
night vision fancy crime goggles. Her stilettos were weapons. I
think I've mentioned on the show before. I did used
to cosplay her, and sometimes I still do. And my
experience was everybody loved that costume, but they also love
telling me that they didn't like Anne Hathaway. Um. Poor an. Yeah,
we've talked about that on this show before. Our people
(28:36):
just don't like Ann Hathaway because they see her as prissy.
She's vegan person nickitty, but really it seems me she
just knows what she wants well as Gonna saying Natalie
would would be the same. She's a vegan all of
those things, but she's not as disliked seemingly as Anne
Hathaway is. Maybe that's another perfect another episode. And then
(29:00):
we wanted to end with this for our discussion of Catwoman.
Glorias Dynham's review of The Dark Night and and Hathaway's
performance read I saw the Dark Knight Returns last night,
and among other things, Catwoman is a feminist superhero with
the storyline and transformation of her own plus class consciousness,
a girl buddy, equal skills with the Batman equipment, and
an apartment of her own in old Town and she
(29:21):
gets the guy. So yeah, that's that's kind of our
little kid. Uh. Batman returns chat Woman extra Christmas. We
do have a little bit more for your very brief
run through, but first we have a quick break for
word from our sponsor and we're back. Thank you spots here,
(29:54):
and we're back a little bit with Iron Man three. Yes,
I'm gonna blaze through this of minutes as I've seen
this one too, and I'm not gonna lie. I have
a hard time I remembering all of this. Okay, Well,
I got you, I got you, all right. So we
opened on Blue by Il six five the years, Tony
Stark is about to bang a scientist named Maya Hanson
played by Rebecca Hall who has this plan all about
(30:17):
regenerating plants or something. Um. He stands up an awkward
all just Killian played by Guy Pierce uh And then yes,
we skipped to the present m c U timeline post
Avengers a symbol, and Tony has built a bunch of
Iron Man suits and it's Christmas time. One of the
first scenes is him trying on his new Iron Man
(30:38):
suit to jingle Bells kind of a sassy version of
jingle Bells um. And Tony is clearly distant and struggling
with maybe PTSD definitely anxiety attacks post New York City
and the Avengers um, which is impacting his relationship with
his wife, Pepper Pots. I didn't think so, but a
(31:00):
lot of places his significant other okay, because they didn't
get married until after the first that the wedding was
in the one You're right, so significant other why I
put that? Well, I put that originally, but then everywhere
I was reading said wife, and I was like, maybe
they got divorced and then got remarried anyway, whatever, Now
(31:22):
not so awkward and pretty handsome all Killian shows up
to meet Pepper and is very flirtatious with her. Uh.
Tony's head of security, suspicious, stumbles on mysterious plot gets
severely injured. At the same time, you have a string
of terrorist attacks orchestrated by a villain known as the Mandarin,
and this has the press clamoring after Tony Stark ok
iron Man asking him if he's going to do something
(31:44):
about it, and angry about what happened to his head
of security, Happy Start challenges the Mandarin on live TV,
gives away his home address, which I feel like it's
pretty obvious where he lives, but whatever, I guess it's
the challenge. I don't know. Uh So, when he arrives home,
Pepper is packing and also he has once again given
her a gift that she clearly doesn't want, a huge
(32:05):
rabbit custom made um. At this point, Maya shows up
at the door, and it's like, hey, I think my
boss works for the Mandarin And then all these missiles
start probably into their house, and Tony is able to
save Pepper and Maya Henson Rebecca Hall's character by putting
them in some of his Iron Man suits and blasting
them out. Uh. He manages to escape, but not before
(32:27):
his suit takes major damage and is pretty much nonfunctional
When he lands in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee.
As he's trying to repair a suit, he meets a
young boy who promises to help him secure some supplies
because everyone thinks Tony is dead. Um and then all right.
He finds out about this project called Extremists. Extremists that
Maya was working on with Killian that experimented on injured
(32:51):
soldiers to regenerate lost limbs or other injuries. But it
left these soldiers unstable, like I will explode spontaneously unstable. Uh.
Iron Man. He's like trying to figure out what he's
gonna do, how he's gonna save the day. He's on
the verge of a panic attack when the kid says,
build something. You build things, right, just go build something,
(33:13):
So he goes back to his roots um and As
this is happening, Pepper is captured by Maya, who was
working for Killian and is used in the extremest experiment um.
Killian even tells her that she is a trophy when
she's strapped into this pot in a sports braw and
tight pants. Then Tony is captured after he discovers that
(33:36):
the Mandarin is just an English actor pretending to be
a terrorist. Um and this is a big twist in
the movie because he's a huge villain in the comics
UM Tony is. He attempts to break out, but then
uh Maya tries to save him when he fails, and
then Killian just shoots her instead of listening to her
(33:57):
because she's like, he won't be able to solve your
problems without me, I'm your side. Aientists and he just
kills her. Um And also the President has been captured,
and this all culminates in a battle between a superhuman
Killian and his Crony's Tony, his pal Iron Patriot played
by Don Cheetle, and a bunch of automated iron suits,
with the President and Pepper's lives hanging literally in balance.
(34:18):
The President is saved, but Pepper falls into a pit
of lava, seemingly to her death killing is about to
kill Tony, but then Pepper rises up from the death
of Hell metaphorically uh, and now as all temporarily superpowered,
she does some as kicking in like two minutes or less,
uh than they kick us together. Tony destroys his Iron
Man suits and removes his arch reactor. Day is saved.
(34:40):
It's complicated. Well, I think he just really wanted to
do a plantline Like I did this before I rewatched it,
and I was like, oh boy, there's so many threads here. Um, alright,
so let's talk about action figures. Lets. You and I
had disgustioned and you were telling me a lot about this,
so as you talked to about In the Female Action
(35:01):
Figures episode, Rebecca Hall's character was originally meant to be
the main villain, but the director was pressured by Studio
Exacts that a female villain action figure wouldn't sell. And
I'm sure those Guy Pierce action figures left off the shelf.
Right um and Marvel Entertainment CEO at the time, Permacter said,
there was an early draft of Ironman three where we
(35:21):
had an inkling of a problem, which is that we
had a female character who was the villain in the draft.
We had finished the script and we were given no
holes barred mimos saying that cannot stand. And we've changed
our minds because after consulting, we've decided that those toys
won't sell as well if it is female. So we
had to change the entire scriptes because of toymaking. Now
that's not Figy, that's Marvel Corporate. But now you don't
(35:42):
have the problem anymore. Yeah, So it was really frustrating
I think for a lot of people involved in the film.
I know, uh our down Jr. It was like, no,
you gotta give it more of a role and a
holiday accepted it on kind of a different which happens
a lot unfortunately, and especially to women unfortunately. Uh Yeah,
(36:03):
you can see her action figure episode from more on
that um. And then I also wanted to say an
interesting thing about Pepper pots As. While she spends most
of her time being damseled in this movie and every
other Iron Man um, although she is painted, is an
extremely business navvy, incompetent woman. According to some Internet so
she kills the most people. She kills more people than
(36:24):
Iron Man on screen, at least she kills Ironmonger and
Killian iron Man has only killed Ebony Ma on screen. Um.
And then yeah, I could come back and talk about
her character because she's painted is sort of a nag,
like she's never happy with Tony Prow. Yeah. Well that's
another thing is a lot of people can't separate her
(36:46):
from Gwenda Paltrow. Um, she is used to make Tony
feel jealous by the villain. She does spend most of
the movie distress. She's captured, tortured, and experimented on. It's
bait for Tony. And then there's a lot of talk
about fake feminism and how just because she got to
kick gas for two minutes or less that it's like
(37:07):
exacts or pointing to it. Look how feminist we are,
but it ignores everything else, which was kind of the
complaint for Endgame. Uh is it endgame or is it in? Yeah? Yeah,
what is wrong with you today? I've seen a lot
of movies, so with End Game where they have that
one giant scene but they're like, hey, look, women, it's
(37:28):
just so token. Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. Um. And
then Tony the character as well, I mean he's a womanizer.
He says a lot of things in the movie that
are not great. Um, there's like a beauty pageant that's
not explained. There's all these women in bikinis running around
such as things like that. Um, and then random trivia.
(37:50):
I didn't know this. Robert Downey Jr. Got injured in
the middle of filming and was down for the count
for six weeks. And since they couldn't hold up production
for that long, the creators made up a completely digital
version of him for shot that didn't require dialogue our closeouts,
so you can try to find the fake Tony Stark
in there. Um. But yeah, that was just a quick
look at another superhero holiday movie. Just a minute, you
(38:11):
just want to talk about the m c U. I did,
I did, And we do have a tiny, tiny bit
more about the m c U. But first one more
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
(38:33):
Thank you sponsor, And we're back with a special mention
Spider Verse. Spider Man into the Spider Verse. So y'all,
I'm gonna, I really, I'm gonna live stream you know,
reaction the joy I feel watching that movie. It's exhilarating.
It makes my face hurt. It's like you're watching it
for the first time, the shock that you go through
with the whole time. Um. And yes, I was this
(38:58):
is the movie I chose for a movie rust the
podcast fire Friend Chuck um. And eventually he had the
He was like, Andy, we've got to stop talking. But
I haven't told you about the other things. The frame rate.
Let me talk more about the frame rate. Um. But
I did want to mention it because it's one of
my favorite movies of all time, and it takes place
at Christmas. Um. If you remember, Chris Pines o G
(39:23):
Spider Man is featured on a holiday album in the movie,
and the cast actually recorded several holiday songs that you
can listen to and by if you want, um, including
Spiky it's cold outside, swinging around the Mistletoe, Silent Night,
You're welcome, joy to the world that I just saved,
Spidy the Snowman is beginning to look a lot like
a non denominational holiday. Yeah. I think the only part
(39:44):
that I realized it was holiday was because that song
randomly comes on in the security guards room and that's it. Yeah,
but it's a holiday. There's snow, there's Christmas trees. If
you look, Um, it's diverse, It's gorgeous. It has fleshed
out female bad as vulnerable characters like Spider, Gwyn Penny Parker,
Aunt May Doc what a great villain? So Phil Lord
(40:07):
and Christopher Miller's goal for the film inspire young people
to become heroes, inspire grown ups to help them do it,
and remind us all that you don't need to be
bitten by radio active Spider to do your part. You
are powerful and we are counting on you. Yes, I'm
pointing to Annie right now. I want does say not
you necessarily probably beta work speaking No, no, no, no,
(40:28):
they're counting on you necessarily. Um. But yeah, that's just
what we wanted to say about some less traditional holiday. Yeah,
so there you go. Are not so Christmas Christmas movies,
which is the way I like it. I will tell
you once again, I do do a lot of Like
I said, do do a lot of horror movies during
this time because I do not like not a fan
(40:50):
of the season. I'm not. I'm not trying to be
uh a grinch, but you know, you have to cope
with things the way you can cope with it. So
let us know you're not so Christmas. See Christmas movie recommendations.
And I would also consider die Hard, which I know
has been a debate action movie that takes place at Christmas. Yes,
and a lot of the Harry Potters as Christmas movies
(41:12):
as well. Yeah, we watched you know, definitely a little
bit the first The first two are the ones that
I would consideras Happy Christmas. Harry, Yeah, I think he
does it is Christmas at one point in definitely one though,
is it? Ye, when he goes to visit That's right,
That's right. So yeah, let us know your recommendations because
I would love to know more and to watch more
(41:33):
movies that are not Yes, the Netflix movies that I'm seeing,
I don't. I don't want to watch those, Yes, And
let us know what we should do for our next
feminist movie Friday. And also if you have any feminist
movie thoughts. I know we moved through those partiquately, but
so if you have any thoughts about them that we
missed it, we would love to hear them. You can
email us at Stuff Media, Mom Stuff at iHeart media
(41:55):
dot com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom'sff Podcast.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Andrew Howard. Thanks
to you for listening. Steph, I'm Never Told You's a
production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts
from iheartradiovi is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows Jingle Bills, Batman's Bells,
(42:17):
Wedding Maid and Egg. No, ok okay
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