October 2, 2020 • 56 mins
Anney and Samantha cast a spell with Hocus Pocus and The Witches, and discuss the depiction of witches in children's movies. Is it all truly just a bunch of hocus pocus?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan
Ever told your protection of I Heeart Radio. So for
today's question, I'm going to do it in spirit of
this episode. What what movie? What children's movie do you
(00:30):
think scared you the most? It was meant for kids?
What was terrifying? It wasn't meant for kids? Yeah, so
I have a few because I definitely had a giant
imagination of things coming to get me in like insignificant
things that shouldn't have been a big deal. And I
was like, oh, hell no, Um, we're gonna be talking
(00:52):
about one of the movies specifically for sure, so I'll
leave that one. Yeah, for surprise. It was really the
title or somewhere, but actually I wasn't a kid and
it came on later, but it freaked me out. Was
the Ernest Saves holloway yea, those snotty trolls. I was
(01:14):
thinking about this the other day. I was like, what
other movies really freaked me out? And that was one
of them, and I was like why, why, why did
that have to happen? And for for me, like I
actually watched a lot of really bad nineties eighties horror
movies growing up and so I think I was in
my teens preteens. We were doing that. We were being
rebellious and watching like House of Wax and that stuff
(01:37):
really scared me. But those were were supposed to be scary,
and even though you know, earn a scary stupid was
supposed to be kind of scary, it would really freaked
me out. Yeah. I can't really remember much about that movie,
but I do remember being unsettled by it, So I
don't think you're alone. Yeah. Look, they turned into treat people,
they turned into like, yeah, carvings of themselves. It was weird.
(02:00):
So what about you? Yes, uh, well, I've probably mentioned
it before, but I have an entire list of what
I called terrifying children's movies, and there's like twenty movies
on there. And I was an interesting kid in that.
Like I watched Nightmare on Elm Street, I don't know,
for nothing, no fear, but like, the one that scared
(02:21):
me the most was a little Nemo Adventures in Slummerland.
What is that? I don't know. It's a like comic,
I think, um, but it scared me so badly I
asked my dad to remove it from the house like
I would not have it, and so he like took
it out and donated it. And I haven't seen it since,
(02:44):
but sometimes when I bring it up, people do you remember,
and they remember it being very scary as a kid,
and I definitely also on there is the secretive name
that terrified me. H, Legend. I haven't seen Legend, but
it's and it's on. I was on Primary King and
I'm like, maybe it's time has brought up Legend too. Yeah,
(03:06):
I think you know I have talked about this before
because Tim Curry as Satan the Devil one of the
scariest scenes. I remember, like I'm still like in his voice,
deep and growling at you and you just knew like
you were going to get eaten up. And of course
it was Tom Cruise's first movie. I think we've talked
about it on our show before. I think it was
candless and it was really baffling as a child and
(03:28):
kind of like embarrassing to watch. I'm like, why is
he handless? Well, yeah, that is very baffling. But speaking
of Tim Curry, I actually recently we watched one on
the list freen Guly, which is not it does not
hold up, but I can see why it scared me,
and Tim Curry as a musical number in it, so
it's worth watching. But and a Dark Crystal, Oh my god.
(03:49):
The Wizard of Us too, Yeah, not the first one,
the second one. I didn't know there was a too.
Not gonna lie. Oh oh, it's all about depression. It's
so upsetting. Oh, like they don't believe that she went
to OZ. So she goes through like a lecture, shock therapy.
It's awful. Yeah, intense. Yeah, Rockadoodle. That one doesn't hold
(04:16):
up either, but it scared me. Yeah, Once a fun
a Forest. All of these are pollution based children's movies. Yeah,
we are you scared that the world was going to end?
I did. I actually was really worried about that, and
I had a whole list. When I was nine years old,
I wrote my bucket list, and most of it was like,
if you read it now, it reads as though I
thought the world was going to end it in any
(04:36):
moment um. So I guess, well, we are talking about
one movie that did scare a lot of children, because
we're examining two movies today because it's coming up in
my favorite season, which is Halloween. My favorite well, I
call it a season you do call it a season
like us what it was? Two weeks ago you sent
(04:58):
me an email saying, okay, this time, what are we
gonna do for the Halloween specials? What horor movies are
we gonna do? Like, let's get a whole months worth
the plan? Well, Paul is my favorite season and Halloween
is my favorite holiday. Uh, And we talked about which
is all the time. Will take any opportunity to talk
about which is. So today we're doing two movies that
I would argue our children's movies but definitely scared a
(05:20):
lot of people and are enjoyed by adults, hocus Pocus
and The Witches. And then we're gonna have a conversation
on depiction of which is in children's movies in general. Now,
hocus Pocus didn't scare me. I know I've mentioned it
on this show before, but I rented it from a
Blockbuster so much as a kid that the guy I
remember his face, he was like, you know what, you
(05:43):
can just have it? Because I kept renting it and
my parents refused. They're like, no, she can't, she cannot.
How dare you don't you hand this to you? And
my grandparents offered to buy it for me, and they
also said no, don't give it to her, But behind
their backs, I I saved up my money and I
bought it from the blockbuster guy a really cheat price.
(06:04):
I think he sold it to me for like two
dollars um. And then I watched it so much my
parents banned from the house and I did not rewatch it.
So this was probably like eight to nine. I didn't
really watch it again until college. It's a good movie.
It's a good like. I loved it, and I love
Bette Midler. You know this. Everything she does to me
(06:25):
is just how our house movie. It doesn't matter what
it is, like, I grew up watching her. She did
one where she was twins with another one it was
I just love a Big Business. It was called big Business.
I love that movie. But hello, First Wives Club, Like,
I made you watch it because how much I love
her as an individual, but then as a cast phenomenal
(06:47):
and yeah, hocus Pocus, she makes that movie. Oh yeah,
she it's a delight to watch. Yes, And certainly, yeah,
the stuff we're gonna get into how it has become
a cult classic, and I certainly don't go a Halloween
without watching it at least once. We've actually already watched it,
Samantha and I and the Witches. We did a double feature. Um,
(07:12):
and apparently there is a Hocus Focus too in production.
It's going to be a Disney Plus exclusive. I was
very confused by it because there was a lot of
back and forth over who was going to be in it.
It was the original cast going to come back. I
don't know. I guess maybe COVID, because this is right
in March the announced it, so maybe COVID really got
in the way because I couldn't really pin down any
(07:32):
more details other than that. And there is a writer
and a director on board, but I don't know, so
I guess look out for that. There's also a board game. Um,
I think it just came out, just came out really yeah,
like it's it was four Halloween. They were getting it ready.
So there's a board game if that's your kind of thing.
I really can't tell you much about the game play,
(07:54):
but I like the cover of it. And there is
a book. There's a book that analyzes the main theme
was a focus postus, which the author identified as home nostalgia, festivity, horror, Broadway,
sibling rivalry, virginity, and feminism. It's called hocus Pocus in Focus.
The Thinking Fans Guide to Disney's Halloween Classic is by
(08:16):
Aaron Wallace. And there's another book from Hocus Focus and
the all new sequel that follows Max and Allison's daughter
Poppy too. It sounds like she's trying to prove that
the story they've told her isn't true. So she goes
to the Sanderson Museum and I'm sure nothing goes wrong,
because nothing ever goes wrong. Um. And then as as
I was thinking about this, I remembered that last August
(08:40):
to August ago and it was last August. It was
only a year ago. Oh my god, it feels like
so long do Um. Samantha and I were in Orlando
for podcast conference and we went to Magic Kingdom and
because it's Disney, even though it was August, uh, they
were already celebrating Halloween. And we saw the Halloween special
at Magic king them and it was hocus Pocus based,
(09:02):
and I just remember, like the entire crowd groaned when
they said how old it? Yeah, they literally said it's
been thirty something years since we would last appeared, or
something along those lines. Twenty something years. And Lauren was
with us from Savor, and three of us looked at
each other, and I think I really had a moment
of crisis. I was like, wait, what what just happened?
(09:22):
And I had to count back to like prove, oh no,
that's not right, and then I was like, oh my god,
it is, and I'm going to sit down now. Yeah.
It was hilarious. They grown that reverberated through the crowd.
Why did they have to be specific and say it's
been so many years sisters, And I'm like what, Yeah,
(09:43):
that they definitely were. I feel like they were messing
with the crowd of that one. Um on the other
side of the coin. I've also mentioned on this show
how I never watched The Witches as a kid because
we we owned it, but the cover terrified me. Um.
But yeah, Samantha has fixed that and I have now
seen it. It's also on Netflix if you want to
(10:04):
check it out. Is it on Netflix now? Okay? Because
I just have my own copy. I have searched for
a copy for years trying to find that movie, and
I finally was able to find a copy and it
was really expensive, surprisingly, not really but like more expensive
than others, and like, wow, Okay, okay, And of course
it's not like read digitally mastered or anything. It's just
(10:25):
it is as bad as it was. You know, I
didn't know it then, but the way it was made whatever.
But what did you think after seeing it? Uh? I
really liked it. I loved Angelica Houston. I can see
why it's scary, Like, oh, my kids, it really scared them,
not only in kind of the creepy puppet effects um,
(10:48):
but also getting into the history and who was behind this,
it makes a lot more sense some shots because I
was watching it and I was like, this has the
vibe of one of those really kind of creepy children
British shows, kind of like a quiet, understated, ominous undertone
that something is just off. Um. So yeah, no, I
(11:10):
really enjoyed it. It was unsettling in a way I
couldn't quite pinpoint um. And it is different in terms
of while these are both children's movies, with which is
in them, Hocus Focus is much more about like Bumbling,
which is who want to live forever, whereas the Witches
this is about witches who want to kill all children, right,
(11:31):
Like it's just about vehemently hitting all children and getting
rid of them. In the world and how awful they
are and they are nothing but evil. Yeah, and that's
a pretty disturbing right when you think about it. Um,
do you remember the first time you saw it. I
can't remember the first time I saw it. I just
(11:52):
know the motions and being so freaked out. But like, also,
it's just like it. We'll talk a bit more like
this all the rest of the films around that time.
It's like, why does so much tragedy have to happen
to make up a story? Especially for children? Children is
about to say it's true, It's true. I've been giving
that a lot of thought lately. Actually. Okay, so let's
(12:15):
start with hocus Pocus, which I feel like we really
don't have to go into too much detail, but you know,
we'll give an overview. Hocus Pocus was a Disney film
directed by Kenny Ortega that stars Yes, Bette Midler, Sarah
Jessica Parker, Kathy and Jimmy and thora birch Um. I mean,
right there, those are all women right in the main
(12:36):
cast there. Even though the main story is about like
the dude in theory, he really just is kind of
not ends up not me, Like he carries the storyline.
But he's not the storyline. Yeah, he's not what you
remember about that movie for sure. It's a comedy that
follows three witches, the Sanderson's sisters, as they terrorize Salem, Massachusetts,
one Halloween night. It also is the story of the
(12:59):
old older brother younger sister dynamic, that kind of sibling rivalry.
It's full of hijinks, talking cats, random musical numbers, and
so much nineties, so so so much nineties. Look at
that you got like the tight ice shakes. You've got
this like in running insult of kind of California liberalism,
(13:22):
Hollywood l a judgment going on jabbos, which have you
ever heard anyone called boobs jabbows in your life? Was
that a thing? Yeah? Yeah, so to me, yabbos is
very much like the valley talk that you hear of
sometimes in the nineties and nineties. Were I think because
you actually spoiler alert watched Heathers they say it in
(13:45):
that too, Did they really? Oh yeah they did? And
I was like, yeah, yeah, I thought this was a
totally made up thing. Wow, okay, um yeah, they're also
um this whole idea of virgin lighting the black than candle,
(14:05):
which We're going to talk about more in a second.
But I read a lot of essays about how if
you yes essays on this movie if you really think
about this is a Disney movie that's preoccupied with sex
in a lot of ways. Uh. And apparently some people
think Max did have sex at the end of the
second act. Let's talk. Samantha's face tells it all. We'll
(14:27):
get into that later too. Also, someone in my building's
WiFi has named black Thing Candle and I love it.
That makes me very happy. You need to be yes.
She's very u feminist. I could till by the bumper
stickers on her car, and I finally got to meet
her from a distance, and I think where we'd be
very fast friends indeed. Um. So, when this movie came out,
(14:50):
it did receive mixed reviews at best. Actually, I think
on Raight Tomatoes it's got a twenty seven percent yes
yes uh. And it lost money at release. Um, I
don't know. Some places said it lost money. It certainly
didn't make money. Uh. It did come out in July,
so it's a Halloween movie that came out in July,
(15:11):
so that a lot of people were like, well, that
was probably part of the problem. Um, but it absolutely
did go on to become a beloved cult classic. Like
millions of people every year watch it on free Form,
which used to be ABC Family. But when I say millions,
like eight millions. They already released their October playlists. I
don't know if you've seen it actually popped up and
(15:32):
it's on there for sure. Oh yeah they I read
an interview with somebody who's head of programming there and
she said it's like an event like Pocus Focus. Um. Yeah,
I watch it every year. My dream, one of my dreams,
one of my cosplay dreams, is to one day do
the Sanderson Sisters with two other people. Their costumes are
pretty complicated though, yeah. Yeah, and whoever does when he
(15:55):
is gonna have to really have the hair, oh my gosh. Yes.
To get a bit further into the plot, but not
too much because I do think most of you have
probably seen it. The movie opens with Thackeray Banks trying
to save his younger sister from the dastard leie Sanderson Sisters.
And yes, his name is Thachery, not Zachary, as a
lot of people thought. Um, and the Sanderson Sisters are
these witches that live in the woods near his home.
(16:19):
The witches drain his sister Emily of her youth and
her life to make themselves appear younger and achieve immortality,
and they turn Thackery into a cat. After they discover him. However,
the sisters are caught by an angry mob of townspeople
and they are hung, but not before they and their
wonderful book cast a spell to bring them back if
(16:41):
a virgin lights the black Fame candle on all Hallow's Eve.
Cut to you present day, which is the nineties and Max,
who is the main character again purportedly Um a teenager
whose family just moved from l A to Salem, and
he is oh so ext teenage not happy about it.
(17:02):
Um Salem is in the midst of their annual Halloween celebrations.
Is a really big deal there, including telling the legend
of the Sanderson sisters, and Max also teenage. Ankstanty does
not buy into it, is not into it, and this
leads to a confrontation with Allison and girls into about
him being kind of I don't believe in Halloween and
she's like, well, actually, and then he gives her his
(17:24):
his digits phones. So it's such a smooth operator you
certainly think so, yes, and only to be rebuffed and
she gives back his number. I did love that um.
Despite his protesting, Max has to take his younger sister, Danny,
who was dressed as a witch out trigger treating who
wants to take care of their siblings come on and
(17:46):
they end up at Allison's house surprise, and Max, trying
to show off, convinces her to take them to the
close Sanderson's Sister museums, even though Danny, who we should
all believed really doesn't want to um and Max stupidly
likes the black flame candle to prove the sisters aren't
real after he asks Allison to do it, but she declines,
(18:08):
implying she either has more sexual experience than Max and
isn't shy to share it, and or is not going
to be peer pressured into messing with something she doesn't
want to mess with. Yeah, I interpret that differently. But
of course the sisters are real and they are resurrected,
and they proceed to run amuck throughout Salem and song
Um as they only have until sunrise to drain the
(18:28):
life force of children or they will turn into stone.
After a series of confrontations, the which is set their
sights on Danny, determined to drain her, of course, the
one who said don't do it. Um. And in the end,
Max drinks the last of their potions, so they had
to drain him instead of his sister. Before they can
do this, the sun rises and the senders and sisters
turned stone before shattering into dusts and then factary Banks
(18:51):
is freed of his cat form and reunites with his
sister in the spirit world role credits. Yes, and then
it's the book kind of looking around sound and then
it has kind of a post credit scene where it
implies that as long as the books around, maybe the
story is not done. Maybe. Yes, Yes, and I did
all of this from memories though, and it all mistakes
(19:13):
her mind, but I feel pretty confident, did it You
wrapped it up perfectly? Also, Yes, and yes, by the way,
Thachary is helping them throughout as a cat as a cat. Yeah,
and yeah for for being a kid's movie, A lot
of this is about sex. Um. Some have even argued
that Max's virginity is an inversion of the Final Girl Show,
(19:36):
a pure male character being chased by female characters, which
I'd never thought of before. But that is very interesting
interpretation of it. I don't know how I feel about this.
I mean, I can see it. I can see it.
Others have rightly pointed out that he is mocked for
his virginity in a way that women would not have been.
(19:57):
That would have been a pure a sign of purity
in a that would have put them on a pedestal,
although I've also read other interpretations that he's not being
mocked for his virginity, he's being mocked for his stupidity
for lighting the candle. So uh, there is that. Um
(20:17):
it is odd thinking back to it like that. I
guess this idea of virginity, even as an eight year
old who watched this movie so much my parents banned it,
was already there. I don't know, I didn't have those thoughts.
I didn't think it that way to me, honestly, even
back then, to me, it was mocking this kid who
needed to show his masculinity by proving that he's not scared,
and that to me was what it was, more so
(20:38):
than anything else, just pretty much mocking toxic masculinity, which
I didn't know those terms then. But I'm like, come on, dude,
stop being that jerk. Yeah, I do. I think I
did it that way too, of like he was trying
so hard to show off and they were both saying like,
don't do it, and then he did it anyway. Um. Yes,
(20:59):
And some people do think that Mac that sex for
the first time with Allison at the end of the
second act when they think it's over and they're like
cuddling on the bed, and therefore read it as a
sex positive story. I've never ever thought that. Yeah, but
I can see. I mean, you don't know face the
(21:19):
blood true, I mean it does say the black. My
innocent heart wants to say they just cuddled and made
out and probably broke up a week later. Your innocent heart,
my innocent cynical My innocent cynical heart wants to believe
it that way. But anyway, let's break down some of
the characters. It is led by three female anti heroines
(21:42):
who are sisters. First, which I do love, Winnifred Winnie
the leader, the smart one, obviously kind of a bully,
Sarah the sexy airhead but she'll kill you though after
she floats with you, yes, and then Mary the goofball nurturer,
and I have to like they kind of play that
same role Bette Midler and Sara Juska Parker and the
(22:05):
First Wives Clove. Yeah yeah, uh yeah, I agree with that. Um.
And if you look at those roles, um, and a
lot of interpretation is especially been done on Sarah's character,
you can read them as weaponizing society's dismissive attitude towards
(22:27):
women as sluts, spinsters, are witches because I mean this movie,
it's played for laps, it's a comedy, but I mean,
like Sarah, she even threatens that one dude, like they'll
kill you. Um, they are on the outskirts of gender norms.
And as we've talked about a lot with which is
(22:48):
most witches are but they ah. In this kind of
telling of these characters, it takes those because everyone dismisses them.
You see in the movie Everybody, but they are dangerous, um.
And people just are assuming, Oh, she's a spinster, she
can't do anything. Actually, she's a spinster and a witch
and you should be scared. Um. And this was in
(23:11):
contrast to a wave of which is as moral beings
to aspire to in the nineties like Willow from Buffy,
Sabrina and Charmed when we did our episode on the Craft.
The craft was also kind of in conflict with that
whole idea. But a lot of these which is coming
out during third wade feminism and the nineties were shifting
from the previous telling of Oh they're bad too. Oh no,
(23:33):
they're like paragons of good. Um. So this was kind
of an interesting take at the time of they were bad,
but they were also funny and you could relate to them.
You could connect with these sisters. Um. Yeah, they were
transgressors of gender roles. They were uh too sexy, too old,
too ambitious, too ugly. And this movie certainly plays a lot,
(23:55):
as do a lot of movies with which is uh
on the need versus want of children because they don't
they don't like children, They don't want children, but they
do need them right to continue their plans uh and
b immortal. Um. So that's the sisters. Then you have Max,
(24:17):
who's yea the kind of bro character older brother. You've
got Danny. It was definitely painted as the annoying little sister,
but she's certainly I don't know, I could see it
being told from her perspective, and it would we would
have a different reading on her character. But anyway, Alison,
who is the love interest but also very smart, uh,
(24:41):
which she figures out the salt circle and all that stuff. Um.
Then Zachary binks they believe to older brother lost his
sister Emily and was turned into a cat by the
Sanderson sisters. Many of my friends had a crush on him.
Oh yeah, it was the heartthrow at that point. I
think he came around doing like Jonathan Taylor, Thomas and
all of them. So he been with the shaggy haired,
(25:02):
bowl cut hair dudes that everyone loved in those in
that time frame. It's just funny to me because he
did spend I mean what you see him like that
for maybe four minutes and the rest of the movie
he's a cat. We'll take about Do you remember the
movie Casper? I never saw Casper. Oh well, so in
Casper you have Devin Sawa and Christina Ritchie Um and
(25:25):
Devin saw it is not even the voice of the
ghosts throughout the movie, which is animated the entire time,
pops up for fifteen seconds and everybody was like, I
love him, I'm not gonna lie. I was one of
them as well, because they were also in um other
movies and I'm like, yeah, but yeah, so it doesn't matter.
(25:45):
He also was one of the shaggy haired blonde kids
at that time frame. Okay, that's that's funny. I mean,
I guess it's whatever you want onto someone who's there
so little. I mean, it's not like you didn't get
to know Factory through the cat right exactly. He loved
his sibling, he tried to save people, He was cursed
just like everyone else. All Right, Okay, I got I
(26:09):
mean it's someone who loves fictional characters and is that
had a crush on a cartoon character before. I can't judge,
so that's fair. But yeah, speaking of boy crushes, at
this point, there is Billy Butcherson, who was the zombie boyfriend.
By the way, does he not look like the character
from Edward Scissor Hands A little bit? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.
(26:31):
Though he cheated on Winnie with Sarah, he was the
one who was punished by Winnie again sisters first, which
is kind of a relief. I mean, you don't you
kind of feel bad for him At the same time,
at least it's not women against women. Yeah. And then,
of course there are two male bullies that get hung
in cages after harassing the sisters, and of course they
pick on everybody at the school, so you kind of feel, yeah,
(26:53):
you kind of want them to be in those cages.
So there's a cameo by Penny Marshall and her brother
Gary Marshal, and they are spouses, yeah in this one,
which is quite funny and every way, but of course
I love the two of them anyway, So yes, I'm
just as a devil now I remember for sure, let's
just be a running theme some kind of Penny Marshall
(27:15):
related fact in every movie episode. Amazing. Well, I know
Gary and Penny would put each other in each other's
films or have each other like Gary was in a
leak of their own opinion right, actually directed, but I
think they did that often. They were really close. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
um yeah. So that's pretty much hocus focusing. There's all
these themes of you know, sisterhood and sibling rivalry, but
(27:39):
also being protective of your sibling in particularly your sisters.
Um and I don't know, I I have a new
appreciation for uh because it is a very nostalgic film,
right where in certain movies, if you've seen enough, you're
not really paying attention to anything other than oh, this
part makes me feel warm because it reminds me of
all these other things. Or I can say this line
(28:01):
with gusto because I love it. Um. But yeah, now
I've especially thinking about the context of when it came out,
having these this close sisterly relationship and these characters who
are both funny but are bad and witches but everybody
loves them. It's pretty rare. Um. So I am very
(28:22):
excited for another rewatch, starting all over again. More witches. Yes, um.
So that's that for now, But now we need to
talk about the Witches. But first we're gonna pause for
a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
(28:52):
we're back. Thank you sponsor. Right, So, we did want
to talk about these two movies together, the Witches and
hocus Pocas, because there are specifically made and geared as
children's movies, but they both have very interesting takes on
witches and how they represented so we thought it would
be an interesting contrast to each other. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
(29:14):
So The Witches is a movie originally adapted from the
classic novel written by Rhodes all Uh and by the way,
he did actually see this, and uh, he wasn't a
big fan of the movie. According to one report, he
felt as if the movie was quote utterly appalling because
of the changes which were happier than his That does
not surprise me, um these changes in the movie. And
(29:35):
it was produced by Jim Henson Productions and was apparently
the last movie he was personally involved in. And though
it wasn't actually a big hitting theaters either, critics were
fans of it. And it still has a Route Tomato
score of so it's better than August Focused. Yes, it
was even given three out of four stars by famous
film critic Robert Ebert. And yes, it also has a
(29:57):
big cult following. I guess I'm a part of that
cult obviously. Um So. The movie was directed by Nicholas Rogue,
who was already known for his horror movie Don't Look Now,
Which Annie you watched? Yes, I actually watched this right
March fourteenth, right when quarantine asserted and I was looking
for that gift of his Donald's something like it's not
(30:18):
done well. That guy where he points and he has
the look of horror on his face. But this that's
actually invasion of the body santrs so I watched this
whole movie waiting for that havenit It never did. But
then I watched Invasion of the Body Snatchers and I
loved it. But anyway, yeah, that's why when you told
me this, Samantha, I was like, oh, I can see it. Yeah.
So him being the director of this horror movie, he
(30:40):
had plenty of controversy under his belt and was a
surprising choice to direct a children's film, as most of
his works were seen as overly risque and even to
explicit at that time, and some of them movies were
shelved apparently because it was too much. And unsurprisingly, the
movie has been deemed by many people as the scariest
children's move be ever, and I would agree. And although
(31:04):
although I do love this movie, I was surprised to
see so many articles written about it this year. But
it turns out, as I said, this marks the thirtieth
anniversary of the film released, so it's been thirty years
since it's been released, as well as the fact that
they're now talking about doing a remake with Anne Hathaway
playing the Grand High Witch and directed by Robert Zemecka's
so that should be interesting. Um accidentally timely, Yeah, I
(31:27):
really do, really, and many have contended to argue that
this was one of the most terrifying movies ever made
for children. So there's a debate about like, is it
just terrifying because it's a children's movie or is it
just terrifying and why are children watching it? So Rogue
even stated that at one point his child watched some
of the dailies I guess, and his child was so
(31:49):
terrified that he realized that he needed to edit several
of the scenes. So I wonder what that looked like. Um,
And I definitely have lasting memories of many terrifying scenes
that kept me awake for sure. Yeah, oh no, I
can definitely see as I was watching it they were
scenes where I'm like, oh, I'm sure that would have
(32:10):
kept me up. Yep. I had a real weird thing
about paintings and getting trapped in paintings, you know. I
have a weird thing about like people in paintings and
whether they're watching they're watching me. Well maybe it came
from this maybe. So for the plot, we meet Luke
played by Jason Fisher and his grandmother Helga played by
(32:31):
Madge Setter and in Norway, and she's telling Luca always
caution your tales of witches, who not only walk among
all of us, but they actively work to get rid
of all of the children in the world. The witches, though,
are good at hiding among regular people and can actually
they can be spotted because they have a purple tint
in their eyes, a rash on their head as they
(32:53):
are bald and have to wear wigs. They wear gloves
because they have claws and no toes, so square feet,
and an obvious dislike of the smell of children two,
which is they smell like dog droppings. And this is
actually another interesting thing I noticed when I was thinking
about witches in children's movies is they often have like
a smell aversion two children and it's a It's usually
(33:17):
like some kind of waste by products, right. I remember
when she said droppings. It was so weird to me
being from Colla j, Georgia, and of course they're you know,
and I think Norway, and I'm like, wait, what droppings?
Was drippings? What are droppings? So much of it's fancier
than it really does. It's like it just made it
up so much more upscale. And of course the cleaner
(33:38):
they are, the worst. They smell. So to bring home
the reality of the dangers of these witches, Helga tells
of her friend who disappeared from their village. As the
family of Erica scrambles to find her, we see her
pop up in a painting that was recently purchased by
her father. Not only has she suddenly appeared in a painting,
but we see her reposition at different places at different times,
(33:59):
and she grows up in the painting until one day
she disappears. That's saying, freaked me out. Yeah. So we
come back to the present day and we meet the
parents as they rush off for their date event, leaving
Luke with his grandmother. And at this point he has
his first interaction with a witch. As he plays in
his treehouse. He meets a woman who tries to entice
(34:21):
him with chocolates into snake. By the way, that would
not work for me, but Lucas obviously too smart for
that and calls out for his grandmother, who, by the way,
is told by the witch that she could not hear him,
so she could not help him. Freaking yeah, that's his
freaky uh. Later, we come back to the sad fact
that Luke's parents have died in a car accident because yes,
(34:44):
obviously all children's movies must have some type of tragedy,
and he moves in with his grandmother, Helgan, and they
moved to England. In their new life, we see more
obstacles for the parents. Helga is diagnosed with diabetes and
it is told she must learn to manage her health.
So we cut to Luke and Helga going on a
much needed vacation in a very spanky hotel soon after
(35:05):
Luke's birthday, uh, in which he's gifted with some white mice.
There there we meet Bruno, a very hungry, rich boy
that loves to sneak some of the lovely teacakes before
everyone else. His character reminded me he was one of
the things where I's like, this feels very British. Yeah,
I don't know why. Just the way he speaks feels
very British. It's not necessarily even his accident, just something
(35:25):
about it. I've never read the book. Uh do love
a lot of the children's book raal dal did, but
this is very similar to that character in Matilda the
boy who So I wonder if he has this as
a theme for hem Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh So
it's at this point we learned that the hotel is
also hosting convention for which is of course masquating as
(35:49):
the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Uh.
Here we meet the Grand High Witch, played by none
other than the wonderful Angelica Houston and her assistant, Miss Irving. Yeah,
this is when it gets a good luke while exploring
the grounds and running away from the hotel manager played
by Mr Bean if you all know who I'm talking about,
(36:10):
the famous English actor with his pet mice. We see
that they've come together to devise a plan to rid
the world of children by turning them into mice with
a potion that would be shared all over the world.
And can we talk about the revel for Angelica Houston
and her face as the actual witch, masterfully done by
Jim Henson's crew. Of course, her high, shrill voice and
(36:34):
disdain like it gave me nightmares, like even when she's
like talking and heaving almost like she's gonna vomit. Yeah,
giving nightmares. I'm not gonna lie. And it's at this
point they bring in their demonstration. Poor Bruno, Poor poor Bruno,
he's turned into a mouse. Um and we see him
scurry away. That whole thing was nightmarish, like his little
(36:56):
seizure and the green power what does that green fog everywhere?
But of course Luke has seen all of this and
has discovered them. And after he has discovered to have
been spying, Luke escapes to his room only to find
his grandmother unconscious in their room. And by the way,
there's some kind of relationship between the Grand High Witch
(37:18):
and the grandmother that they had met before, and I
think yes, and the grandmother lost her tips of her
fingers or no, the grandmother lost one of our fingers
to the Grand High Witch just put that in there.
Luke is then caught and turned into a mouse. Mhmm,
But no fear because Luke, using his mass abilities like
(37:39):
crawling and his tail. Of course, thinking this with the tail,
he sneaks the potion into the soup served to the witches,
turning them into mice, all but one, miss Irving, who
was banned from celebrating the rest of the witches. So
both Bruno and Luke are reunited with their families and
all they all return home. But unlike the book endings,
(38:00):
Irving has become a good which and not only turns
back into a boy, but goes on to set Bruno
back as well. And yes, Doll hated this ending, as
he argued, which is we're unredeemable and cruel. So Rogue
actually did do two endings, one to satisfy a Doll
and to go more with a book, and the original
(38:20):
happy or one that we see. And when they did
the test screen test, yeah, everyone hated. This is like
the reverse shining. The shining is the opposite in a
weird way. So it was like, okay, interesting, So they
kept the happier ending, which I'm not gonna lie. If
it was a bad ending, there may have been a
chance that I couldn't have watched it. I mean that
(38:43):
would have been a very tough thing as a kid. Um,
I was upset, like when we were watching and I
was like, oh my god, he's gonna be a mouse forever,
like he's the resolved for it. But I'm like white.
So there are some themes in controversy with than this movie,
of course. Um, there's quite a bit of conversation about
(39:03):
the whole women hating children thing. Women who can only
be either haggard or cruel, or mothers and caregivers and
actually played a lot on the stranger danger fearmongering from
this film, so we wanted to talk a little about it.
As I told you, there were several articles about pretty
much about why this is one of the most scary
movies ever for children. Um. The continued conversation, though, had
(39:25):
come up on the Hagen Spencer versus the mother Protector,
which is an obvious then to this movie. You have
one or the other, whether it's turning the idea that
women are all maternal and caring versus women who ripped
children away from their families and are evil and thrive
on the demise of children they never wanted. It's very divisive,
and it gets pretty. It gets dark pretty quickly, as
(39:46):
we mentioned in the tail of the Disappearing Young Girl,
seriously eerie to me. Um, and then well we to
look at feminism in this movie. Uh So, the point
that the film was used to tell tell the tale
of the unhappy, motherless hag who murders are sometimes steels
children has made many people feel that this is a
(40:07):
stereotypically misogynistic cautionary tales. Some have recently say they felt
it was more forth thinking. According to an article, UM,
they say author Caroline Kitneys have used it as quote
a hilarious feminist commentary on women, work and family, where
men are ineffective and women possess more power, something they
might prove horrifying to those frantically upholding the patriarchy. Right,
(40:29):
so it's goan to have been a back and forth
with them about is this feminist or is this anti feminist?
Should we be upset or should we laugh? I I
interpreted it as almost satirical, as almost like you're so
afraid of women with power and this is what scares you.
(40:49):
I don't know, like that there was some element of
it that was almost giving a knowing wink of like, yes,
there is the stereotype of ugly hag women who want
to kill children, But what does that say about the
fact that varies that stereotype? Right? So it does go
back and forth. Yeah, so, but back then it was
just so upfront and it was that point of third
(41:10):
wave feminism. So, so who is the villain here? You know?
Is it women in general who don't want children? Or
is it that the pagriarchy have to pen and only
can categorize these two very deep for children's movie. So
also and One of the big things that I saw
was the stranger danger concept um and as many have stated,
(41:32):
this brought fear for children with a new concept of
stranger danger which came around in the eighties. Not only
does this movie immediately place that fear within a child's mind,
but the movie and the book flips it with women
instead of men. Um, here is the hatred of children
that drives them, and as a child of the eighties nineties,
that's something children were taught to fear the whole Strangers
offering candy is a perfect setup that's gonna get you,
(41:55):
so you must be aware and be cautious. Yeah. Actually,
ever on Savor were just an episode on the ice
cream Truck, and it was so interesting to me because
they read all of these like beautiful nostalgic love memories
people had with ice cream truck, and I was like,
when I grew up, even at four years old, I
was like, no way in hell, right am I going
(42:15):
to follow music to kick? I meaning, you buy it.
It's not different than the store, but it just felt
so creepy, like here's this song, go outside and just
hope that nothing's gonna happen to me. Right, Definitely, there
were some cases in the eighties where children were abducted
in unmarked vans, and that's kind of that play that
came in. So you have this. Whole time when we
(42:37):
talked about good touch bad touch, it was always that
stranger danger level of conversation. Yeah, and this movie and
possibly the book brought that into context. This here's and
not only that, but trying to make you feel comfortable
with women, saying that women cannot be the predators here,
but they are so yeah. They That definitely gets into
(42:57):
the mind very quickly, and for children who was to
kid dapt right, So to say that this movie leaves
a lasting impression or an impact is an understatement, and
many still agree again that the overall horror of this
film is one for the record books, and many people
still have is the number one movie of the scariest
(43:18):
childhood movies that exist? Yeah, and again these artists, because
these articles were written the last couple of months. Yeah,
I was surprised how many articles I found. It's like
pages of them were like the scariest children's movie all
the time. Right, Look, yes, I agree, yes, but I'm
interested to see the rebate because they did talk about
(43:40):
Robert Remica said that he was making it more a
social Yeah, it's it's like it's said in the nineteen sixties,
Jim Courier. Yeah, and it's a black child. Yes, So
Octavia Spencer will be playing the grandmother, which is kind
of funny because the other grandmother was about fifteen years
older than her. Yeah, well, we'll have to see, We'll
(44:03):
have to see it certainly will be. We're getting two
remakes of these things. Well, Oergus focus is getting a
sequel that is getting remaca. UM. So we did want
to talk about some overall themes when it comes to
which is in children's movies, But first we're gonna pause
for one worker, break for a word, Timmer sponsor, and
(44:33):
we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So originally we were gonna
get into we we both we thought of prominent examples.
But the more I thought about this, the more I
feel like we're both very influenced by the product the
movies that are coming out in our era, because like
Sabrina was one we thought about, which was an interesting,
(44:56):
um contrast, because we do have the Netflix remake which
is much not not I would call it a children
made for children, UM, but the one in the nineties
certainly was. I mean it was a t G I
Friday Moved show, right, Yeah, yeah, I actually never saw it,
but I mean even just the clips and the vibe,
(45:17):
I was like, oh, yeah, you never watched that. No,
was that on cable? I didn't have a cable. It
wasn't on cable. It was on I believe it was
on ABC. Was on a Family Night show for a
long while. I know it was rebroadcast on what used
to be free Form whatever it was before then for
a little while. Yeah, so, but it was Clarissa explains
(45:38):
at all who was Nickelodeon jumped into that the show
as a teenager with Harvey and all of them. But yeah,
the new ones are definitely completely different. Um. So yeah,
that's the whole thing that there wasn't prominent devil worshiping
in the nineties sitcom Oh surprise, surprise. But they have
thought D and D was some anti evens um, well, yeah,
(46:03):
so the groups of examples we thought of, it really
does split pretty down the middle of like you do
have this good witch who is almost over the top
good um, and then you have the villain. And particularly
when you think about Disney movies, which we'll get into
in a second. There was an era where the witch
(46:26):
was bad in Disney movies and that's it, and that
is changing. But the reasons that it's changing are fascinating. Um.
I thought of double double toil and trouble. You you
often have that kind of dynamic cause they were twins
that it was Clara Stitchman who was originally going to
be I think in Hocus Polk. No, she's gonna be
(46:46):
in the Witches. Um. But anyway, so you've got the
good witch in the bad witch. Uh. It's a Wizard
of Oz kind of dichotomy of you can only be
one or the other, and that's it. You can only
be this sort of maternal thing or this evil children
hating one. Yeah, and certainly attitudes towards children and youth
(47:10):
in general. It's just one of the biggest recurring themes
I could think of, and depictions of witches and children's
movies and also love like when you think of that.
And I know this is not a children's movie, but
Practical Magic was geared as a teenage movie because it
was PG. Thirteen, but it kind of has that whole
effect as well. Of course, children are involved in that
as well and love and all of that. So you wonder,
(47:34):
you're like, what what is your ideas here? Yeah? Um,
and if you think of like hocus focus in particular, uh,
sucking the youth to peer young and beautiful, and that
whole idea that women's value and currency in society is
their youth and their beauty. Um. And like one of
(47:54):
the reasons they choose to focus on Danny thora Birch's
character to sucur youth, she says, You'll always be ugly.
You're the ugliest thing that's ever lived. And Whinnie is
so wounded by this insult. She's like, I have all
of these children options that would be much easier to get,
but you are the one you have insulted me. Yeah.
(48:17):
And it kind of that choosing vengeance and and losing
everything being too power hungry. Uh, perhaps too emotional, I
guess you could read it that way, and losing everything.
And then if you go back to Snow White, which
is one of the very first I mean that was
Disney's first movie, you have the queen who asks asked
(48:39):
a mirror, like who's the fairest of them all? Yeah,
she can't stand to not be the fairest of them all.
She must get rid of any competition. Yes, yes, women
competing against women. I mean that's the interesting thing about
who was focused is there is this kind of like
sisterly bond. The women competing against women is sort of
removed on that level, but on a societal level it's
(49:02):
still kind of there. Um. So that's interesting. And then
I did read, Uh, there are so many essays. This
should not have surprised me at all, but so many
essays have been written about Elsa from Frozen. Oh my gosh,
yes is she Yeah, it's a good power. We don't
(49:27):
know that she's got one known power anyway. Um. Yeah,
So she is one of the first Disney which is
especially the first I think that was good, but also
embraced her powers. Um. She was also the first to
use camp and heightened style of femininity, not to to
(49:48):
know evil. So if you think of like Mobile Efficent
or Ursula or yes, the Queen from Snow White, they
all have this like over the top kind of like
high college almost theater theatrical style, and also doesn't have
that at first, but when she goes into her big
musical number and kind of sheds it all. She does,
(50:08):
but she's still good. Um. But if you look at
the history of yeah, which is in Disney films in particular,
there is this over the top monstrous female desire that
aligns it with queerness. But there's also this fear of
middle aged sexual agency. And as as I was reading
(50:29):
these essays, there's just something you don't pick up on
as a kid, I didn't really get, like when Ursula
was giving aerial like here's how you get a man,
and she's like plumping her lips and doing this, So
I didn't pick up on that. But it's true. She's
like middle aged c which totally confident in her body.
She loves herself and I love her her loving herself, Yes,
(50:50):
but it's painted as a bad bit and quiet. Yeah. Yeah.
It quis power obviously, with family power and ambition, the
whole Witchcraft idea and the punishment and evil that comes
with it. Uh. And apparently I didn't realize, but it
(51:12):
is changing with New Disney. I guess if Elsa continues
on a stretch, is there any more new which is
coming about? So the saying I'm thinking of in particular
um delved into Elsa, UM Maleficent, the new Uh Angelica
Jolie Ones and then um, Meredith, who wasn't a witch,
(51:33):
but they were saying like she immediately breaks gender norms
and is like, I don't want to get married, maybe
I never want to get married. Go ahead to Clare
war Um. So kind of that female power and ambition thing.
And previously when there had been that sort of aberrant
(51:55):
which power, it was bad and you could see that
essaying when women have too much power ambition, it is bad.
But now that I mean people children love Elsa. I
don't know if you know this, but whoa, Um, I've
seen it. Yeah, they and in those movies too, they
paint the love is in between two women, whether that's
(52:18):
like two sisters or I haven't seen Maleficent so long,
but basically Aurora and lovicent Um and then Marida and
her mother. Instead of it being this like romantic rush
to get married, first time you meet a guy, it's
love and that's what you need and then your life
it's done and happy ever after. Um. In that case,
your power is essentially just finding a man, right. Yes,
(52:44):
I was just kidding, I just completely kidding. I was like, oh, Samath,
it comes out with a very yeah. Um not at all.
And then I mean, I feel like we could just
talk about a lot of this stuff forever in a
(53:06):
in a more detailed episode, and perhaps will be, because
again it's my favorite season and my favorite holiday. But
we were also discussing how in Harry Potter and in
most things where you have witches and warlocks and and wizards,
and it does feel that wizards are you know, there's
(53:27):
a wiseness attached to them and perhaps more of a
maybe it's just like less complicated, but it does feel
like I don't have a natural inclination to think they're bad,
whereas which is like, even though I don't think that anymore,
there is that in the back of my head kind
of Oh wait, I've seen so many bad witches? Is
(53:47):
that what you mean? Um? And we, I mean, we
use it as an insult or we have for in
our society forever. So I just watched a movie where
a woman just randomly shouted witch at a bar and
they tried to kill her. She just said it. Um,
I've watched a lot of bad horror reason, but what
would be a movie that did that? How is it
(54:09):
called They're watching? It was about a home improvement show
that went really wrong. Oh yeah, you're digging in something
real dud, you know, Okay, you're going down the well
on this one. Um. But yeah, I would love to
return to this and have a more in depth conversation
(54:31):
about some of these ideas. But but in the meantime,
I feel like that's a pretty good overview of the themes.
You see a lot with women and which is in
these children's movies, right, which I find fascinating. Uh. I
do want to see more of the ideas that we
see in adult films to translate into children's films. And
(54:51):
I guess technically Harry Potter did that mm hmm, which bad.
But you know whatever, newer ones are certainly laying with
a lot of this. Right again, I found I wish
I had way more time to prepare because I found
so manny. Oh so, I don't know why I just
(55:12):
popped in my head the teen which movie from eight
nine and the worst I think that was the worst
musical number in the Oh you've got my attention now.
But essentially it is eighteen rom calm that involves a
redheaded which and I can't remember much about it. I
remember loving it. Um, yeah, damn, I forgot about that
(55:35):
one too, Alright, like that might be another movie that
I have to make you watch, but I'm not gonna lie.
I can't attest to worth watching. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Okay,
Well we'll add it to the list and in the meantime, listeners.
If you have any movie you want us to add
to the list, police send them our way. Our email
(55:59):
is Tough Media momp Up at iHeart media dot com.
You can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've
Never Told You, are on Twitter at mon Stuff Podcast. Thanks.
It's always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks guys,
Oh no, that was just one. Thank you, and thanks
to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. The
production of I Heart Radio for more podcasts, or my
Heart Radio is heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
(56:19):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan
Ever told your protection of I Heeart Radio. So for
today's question, I'm going to do it in spirit of
this episode. What what movie? What children's movie do you
(00:30):
think scared you the most? It was meant for kids?
What was terrifying? It wasn't meant for kids? Yeah, so
I have a few because I definitely had a giant
imagination of things coming to get me in like insignificant
things that shouldn't have been a big deal. And I
was like, oh, hell no, Um, we're gonna be talking
(00:52):
about one of the movies specifically for sure, so I'll
leave that one. Yeah, for surprise. It was really the
title or somewhere, but actually I wasn't a kid and
it came on later, but it freaked me out. Was
the Ernest Saves holloway yea, those snotty trolls. I was
(01:14):
thinking about this the other day. I was like, what
other movies really freaked me out? And that was one
of them, and I was like why, why, why did
that have to happen? And for for me, like I
actually watched a lot of really bad nineties eighties horror
movies growing up and so I think I was in
my teens preteens. We were doing that. We were being
rebellious and watching like House of Wax and that stuff
(01:37):
really scared me. But those were were supposed to be scary,
and even though you know, earn a scary stupid was
supposed to be kind of scary, it would really freaked
me out. Yeah. I can't really remember much about that movie,
but I do remember being unsettled by it, So I
don't think you're alone. Yeah. Look, they turned into treat people,
they turned into like, yeah, carvings of themselves. It was weird.
(02:00):
So what about you? Yes, uh, well, I've probably mentioned
it before, but I have an entire list of what
I called terrifying children's movies, and there's like twenty movies
on there. And I was an interesting kid in that.
Like I watched Nightmare on Elm Street, I don't know,
for nothing, no fear, but like, the one that scared
(02:21):
me the most was a little Nemo Adventures in Slummerland.
What is that? I don't know. It's a like comic,
I think, um, but it scared me so badly I
asked my dad to remove it from the house like
I would not have it, and so he like took
it out and donated it. And I haven't seen it since,
(02:44):
but sometimes when I bring it up, people do you remember,
and they remember it being very scary as a kid,
and I definitely also on there is the secretive name
that terrified me. H, Legend. I haven't seen Legend, but
it's and it's on. I was on Primary King and
I'm like, maybe it's time has brought up Legend too. Yeah,
(03:06):
I think you know I have talked about this before
because Tim Curry as Satan the Devil one of the
scariest scenes. I remember, like I'm still like in his voice,
deep and growling at you and you just knew like
you were going to get eaten up. And of course
it was Tom Cruise's first movie. I think we've talked
about it on our show before. I think it was
candless and it was really baffling as a child and
(03:28):
kind of like embarrassing to watch. I'm like, why is
he handless? Well, yeah, that is very baffling. But speaking
of Tim Curry, I actually recently we watched one on
the list freen Guly, which is not it does not
hold up, but I can see why it scared me,
and Tim Curry as a musical number in it, so
it's worth watching. But and a Dark Crystal, Oh my god.
(03:49):
The Wizard of Us too, Yeah, not the first one,
the second one. I didn't know there was a too.
Not gonna lie. Oh oh, it's all about depression. It's
so upsetting. Oh, like they don't believe that she went
to OZ. So she goes through like a lecture, shock therapy.
It's awful. Yeah, intense. Yeah, Rockadoodle. That one doesn't hold
(04:16):
up either, but it scared me. Yeah, Once a fun
a Forest. All of these are pollution based children's movies. Yeah,
we are you scared that the world was going to end?
I did. I actually was really worried about that, and
I had a whole list. When I was nine years old,
I wrote my bucket list, and most of it was like,
if you read it now, it reads as though I
thought the world was going to end it in any
(04:36):
moment um. So I guess, well, we are talking about
one movie that did scare a lot of children, because
we're examining two movies today because it's coming up in
my favorite season, which is Halloween. My favorite well, I
call it a season you do call it a season
like us what it was? Two weeks ago you sent
(04:58):
me an email saying, okay, this time, what are we
gonna do for the Halloween specials? What horor movies are
we gonna do? Like, let's get a whole months worth
the plan? Well, Paul is my favorite season and Halloween
is my favorite holiday. Uh, And we talked about which
is all the time. Will take any opportunity to talk
about which is. So today we're doing two movies that
I would argue our children's movies but definitely scared a
(05:20):
lot of people and are enjoyed by adults, hocus Pocus
and The Witches. And then we're gonna have a conversation
on depiction of which is in children's movies in general. Now,
hocus Pocus didn't scare me. I know I've mentioned it
on this show before, but I rented it from a
Blockbuster so much as a kid that the guy I
remember his face, he was like, you know what, you
(05:43):
can just have it? Because I kept renting it and
my parents refused. They're like, no, she can't, she cannot.
How dare you don't you hand this to you? And
my grandparents offered to buy it for me, and they
also said no, don't give it to her, But behind
their backs, I I saved up my money and I
bought it from the blockbuster guy a really cheat price.
(06:04):
I think he sold it to me for like two
dollars um. And then I watched it so much my
parents banned from the house and I did not rewatch it.
So this was probably like eight to nine. I didn't
really watch it again until college. It's a good movie.
It's a good like. I loved it, and I love
Bette Midler. You know this. Everything she does to me
(06:25):
is just how our house movie. It doesn't matter what
it is, like, I grew up watching her. She did
one where she was twins with another one it was
I just love a Big Business. It was called big Business.
I love that movie. But hello, First Wives Club, Like,
I made you watch it because how much I love
her as an individual, but then as a cast phenomenal
(06:47):
and yeah, hocus Pocus, she makes that movie. Oh yeah,
she it's a delight to watch. Yes, And certainly, yeah,
the stuff we're gonna get into how it has become
a cult classic, and I certainly don't go a Halloween
without watching it at least once. We've actually already watched it,
Samantha and I and the Witches. We did a double feature. Um,
(07:12):
and apparently there is a Hocus Focus too in production.
It's going to be a Disney Plus exclusive. I was
very confused by it because there was a lot of
back and forth over who was going to be in it.
It was the original cast going to come back. I
don't know. I guess maybe COVID, because this is right
in March the announced it, so maybe COVID really got
in the way because I couldn't really pin down any
(07:32):
more details other than that. And there is a writer
and a director on board, but I don't know, so
I guess look out for that. There's also a board game. Um,
I think it just came out, just came out really yeah,
like it's it was four Halloween. They were getting it ready.
So there's a board game if that's your kind of thing.
I really can't tell you much about the game play,
(07:54):
but I like the cover of it. And there is
a book. There's a book that analyzes the main theme
was a focus postus, which the author identified as home nostalgia, festivity, horror, Broadway,
sibling rivalry, virginity, and feminism. It's called hocus Pocus in Focus.
The Thinking Fans Guide to Disney's Halloween Classic is by
(08:16):
Aaron Wallace. And there's another book from Hocus Focus and
the all new sequel that follows Max and Allison's daughter
Poppy too. It sounds like she's trying to prove that
the story they've told her isn't true. So she goes
to the Sanderson Museum and I'm sure nothing goes wrong,
because nothing ever goes wrong. Um. And then as as
I was thinking about this, I remembered that last August
(08:40):
to August ago and it was last August. It was
only a year ago. Oh my god, it feels like
so long do Um. Samantha and I were in Orlando
for podcast conference and we went to Magic Kingdom and
because it's Disney, even though it was August, uh, they
were already celebrating Halloween. And we saw the Halloween special
at Magic king them and it was hocus Pocus based,
(09:02):
and I just remember, like the entire crowd groaned when
they said how old it? Yeah, they literally said it's
been thirty something years since we would last appeared, or
something along those lines. Twenty something years. And Lauren was
with us from Savor, and three of us looked at
each other, and I think I really had a moment
of crisis. I was like, wait, what what just happened?
(09:22):
And I had to count back to like prove, oh no,
that's not right, and then I was like, oh my god,
it is, and I'm going to sit down now. Yeah.
It was hilarious. They grown that reverberated through the crowd.
Why did they have to be specific and say it's
been so many years sisters, And I'm like what, Yeah,
(09:43):
that they definitely were. I feel like they were messing
with the crowd of that one. Um on the other
side of the coin. I've also mentioned on this show
how I never watched The Witches as a kid because
we we owned it, but the cover terrified me. Um.
But yeah, Samantha has fixed that and I have now
seen it. It's also on Netflix if you want to
(10:04):
check it out. Is it on Netflix now? Okay? Because
I just have my own copy. I have searched for
a copy for years trying to find that movie, and
I finally was able to find a copy and it
was really expensive, surprisingly, not really but like more expensive
than others, and like, wow, Okay, okay, And of course
it's not like read digitally mastered or anything. It's just
(10:25):
it is as bad as it was. You know, I
didn't know it then, but the way it was made whatever.
But what did you think after seeing it? Uh? I
really liked it. I loved Angelica Houston. I can see
why it's scary, Like, oh, my kids, it really scared them,
not only in kind of the creepy puppet effects um,
(10:48):
but also getting into the history and who was behind this,
it makes a lot more sense some shots because I
was watching it and I was like, this has the
vibe of one of those really kind of creepy children
British shows, kind of like a quiet, understated, ominous undertone
that something is just off. Um. So yeah, no, I
(11:10):
really enjoyed it. It was unsettling in a way I
couldn't quite pinpoint um. And it is different in terms
of while these are both children's movies, with which is
in them, Hocus Focus is much more about like Bumbling,
which is who want to live forever, whereas the Witches
this is about witches who want to kill all children, right,
(11:31):
Like it's just about vehemently hitting all children and getting
rid of them. In the world and how awful they
are and they are nothing but evil. Yeah, and that's
a pretty disturbing right when you think about it. Um,
do you remember the first time you saw it. I
can't remember the first time I saw it. I just
(11:52):
know the motions and being so freaked out. But like, also,
it's just like it. We'll talk a bit more like
this all the rest of the films around that time.
It's like, why does so much tragedy have to happen
to make up a story? Especially for children? Children is
about to say it's true, It's true. I've been giving
that a lot of thought lately. Actually. Okay, so let's
(12:15):
start with hocus Pocus, which I feel like we really
don't have to go into too much detail, but you know,
we'll give an overview. Hocus Pocus was a Disney film
directed by Kenny Ortega that stars Yes, Bette Midler, Sarah
Jessica Parker, Kathy and Jimmy and thora birch Um. I mean,
right there, those are all women right in the main
(12:36):
cast there. Even though the main story is about like
the dude in theory, he really just is kind of
not ends up not me, Like he carries the storyline.
But he's not the storyline. Yeah, he's not what you
remember about that movie for sure. It's a comedy that
follows three witches, the Sanderson's sisters, as they terrorize Salem, Massachusetts,
one Halloween night. It also is the story of the
(12:59):
old older brother younger sister dynamic, that kind of sibling rivalry.
It's full of hijinks, talking cats, random musical numbers, and
so much nineties, so so so much nineties. Look at
that you got like the tight ice shakes. You've got
this like in running insult of kind of California liberalism,
(13:22):
Hollywood l a judgment going on jabbos, which have you
ever heard anyone called boobs jabbows in your life? Was
that a thing? Yeah? Yeah, so to me, yabbos is
very much like the valley talk that you hear of
sometimes in the nineties and nineties. Were I think because
you actually spoiler alert watched Heathers they say it in
(13:45):
that too, Did they really? Oh yeah they did? And
I was like, yeah, yeah, I thought this was a
totally made up thing. Wow, okay, um yeah, they're also
um this whole idea of virgin lighting the black than candle,
(14:05):
which We're going to talk about more in a second.
But I read a lot of essays about how if
you yes essays on this movie if you really think
about this is a Disney movie that's preoccupied with sex
in a lot of ways. Uh. And apparently some people
think Max did have sex at the end of the
second act. Let's talk. Samantha's face tells it all. We'll
(14:27):
get into that later too. Also, someone in my building's
WiFi has named black Thing Candle and I love it.
That makes me very happy. You need to be yes.
She's very u feminist. I could till by the bumper
stickers on her car, and I finally got to meet
her from a distance, and I think where we'd be
very fast friends indeed. Um. So, when this movie came out,
(14:50):
it did receive mixed reviews at best. Actually, I think
on Raight Tomatoes it's got a twenty seven percent yes
yes uh. And it lost money at release. Um, I
don't know. Some places said it lost money. It certainly
didn't make money. Uh. It did come out in July,
so it's a Halloween movie that came out in July,
(15:11):
so that a lot of people were like, well, that
was probably part of the problem. Um, but it absolutely
did go on to become a beloved cult classic. Like
millions of people every year watch it on free Form,
which used to be ABC Family. But when I say millions,
like eight millions. They already released their October playlists. I
don't know if you've seen it actually popped up and
(15:32):
it's on there for sure. Oh yeah they I read
an interview with somebody who's head of programming there and
she said it's like an event like Pocus Focus. Um. Yeah,
I watch it every year. My dream, one of my dreams,
one of my cosplay dreams, is to one day do
the Sanderson Sisters with two other people. Their costumes are
pretty complicated though, yeah. Yeah, and whoever does when he
(15:55):
is gonna have to really have the hair, oh my gosh. Yes.
To get a bit further into the plot, but not
too much because I do think most of you have
probably seen it. The movie opens with Thackeray Banks trying
to save his younger sister from the dastard leie Sanderson Sisters.
And yes, his name is Thachery, not Zachary, as a
lot of people thought. Um, and the Sanderson Sisters are
these witches that live in the woods near his home.
(16:19):
The witches drain his sister Emily of her youth and
her life to make themselves appear younger and achieve immortality,
and they turn Thackery into a cat. After they discover him. However,
the sisters are caught by an angry mob of townspeople
and they are hung, but not before they and their
wonderful book cast a spell to bring them back if
(16:41):
a virgin lights the black Fame candle on all Hallow's Eve.
Cut to you present day, which is the nineties and Max,
who is the main character again purportedly Um a teenager
whose family just moved from l A to Salem, and
he is oh so ext teenage not happy about it.
(17:02):
Um Salem is in the midst of their annual Halloween celebrations.
Is a really big deal there, including telling the legend
of the Sanderson sisters, and Max also teenage. Ankstanty does
not buy into it, is not into it, and this
leads to a confrontation with Allison and girls into about
him being kind of I don't believe in Halloween and
she's like, well, actually, and then he gives her his
(17:24):
his digits phones. So it's such a smooth operator you
certainly think so, yes, and only to be rebuffed and
she gives back his number. I did love that um.
Despite his protesting, Max has to take his younger sister, Danny,
who was dressed as a witch out trigger treating who
wants to take care of their siblings come on and
(17:46):
they end up at Allison's house surprise, and Max, trying
to show off, convinces her to take them to the
close Sanderson's Sister museums, even though Danny, who we should
all believed really doesn't want to um and Max stupidly
likes the black flame candle to prove the sisters aren't
real after he asks Allison to do it, but she declines,
(18:08):
implying she either has more sexual experience than Max and
isn't shy to share it, and or is not going
to be peer pressured into messing with something she doesn't
want to mess with. Yeah, I interpret that differently. But
of course the sisters are real and they are resurrected,
and they proceed to run amuck throughout Salem and song
Um as they only have until sunrise to drain the
(18:28):
life force of children or they will turn into stone.
After a series of confrontations, the which is set their
sights on Danny, determined to drain her, of course, the
one who said don't do it. Um. And in the end,
Max drinks the last of their potions, so they had
to drain him instead of his sister. Before they can
do this, the sun rises and the senders and sisters
turned stone before shattering into dusts and then factary Banks
(18:51):
is freed of his cat form and reunites with his
sister in the spirit world role credits. Yes, and then
it's the book kind of looking around sound and then
it has kind of a post credit scene where it
implies that as long as the books around, maybe the
story is not done. Maybe. Yes, Yes, and I did
all of this from memories though, and it all mistakes
(19:13):
her mind, but I feel pretty confident, did it You
wrapped it up perfectly? Also, Yes, and yes, by the way,
Thachary is helping them throughout as a cat as a cat. Yeah,
and yeah for for being a kid's movie, A lot
of this is about sex. Um. Some have even argued
that Max's virginity is an inversion of the Final Girl Show,
(19:36):
a pure male character being chased by female characters, which
I'd never thought of before. But that is very interesting
interpretation of it. I don't know how I feel about this.
I mean, I can see it. I can see it.
Others have rightly pointed out that he is mocked for
his virginity in a way that women would not have been.
(19:57):
That would have been a pure a sign of purity
in a that would have put them on a pedestal,
although I've also read other interpretations that he's not being
mocked for his virginity, he's being mocked for his stupidity
for lighting the candle. So uh, there is that. Um
(20:17):
it is odd thinking back to it like that. I
guess this idea of virginity, even as an eight year
old who watched this movie so much my parents banned it,
was already there. I don't know, I didn't have those thoughts.
I didn't think it that way to me, honestly, even
back then, to me, it was mocking this kid who
needed to show his masculinity by proving that he's not scared,
and that to me was what it was, more so
(20:38):
than anything else, just pretty much mocking toxic masculinity, which
I didn't know those terms then. But I'm like, come on, dude,
stop being that jerk. Yeah, I do. I think I
did it that way too, of like he was trying
so hard to show off and they were both saying like,
don't do it, and then he did it anyway. Um. Yes,
(20:59):
And some people do think that Mac that sex for
the first time with Allison at the end of the
second act when they think it's over and they're like
cuddling on the bed, and therefore read it as a
sex positive story. I've never ever thought that. Yeah, but
I can see. I mean, you don't know face the
(21:19):
blood true, I mean it does say the black. My
innocent heart wants to say they just cuddled and made
out and probably broke up a week later. Your innocent heart,
my innocent cynical My innocent cynical heart wants to believe
it that way. But anyway, let's break down some of
the characters. It is led by three female anti heroines
(21:42):
who are sisters. First, which I do love, Winnifred Winnie
the leader, the smart one, obviously kind of a bully,
Sarah the sexy airhead but she'll kill you though after
she floats with you, yes, and then Mary the goofball nurturer,
and I have to like they kind of play that
same role Bette Midler and Sara Juska Parker and the
(22:05):
First Wives Clove. Yeah yeah, uh yeah, I agree with that. Um.
And if you look at those roles, um, and a
lot of interpretation is especially been done on Sarah's character,
you can read them as weaponizing society's dismissive attitude towards
(22:27):
women as sluts, spinsters, are witches because I mean this movie,
it's played for laps, it's a comedy, but I mean,
like Sarah, she even threatens that one dude, like they'll
kill you. Um, they are on the outskirts of gender norms.
And as we've talked about a lot with which is
(22:48):
most witches are but they ah. In this kind of
telling of these characters, it takes those because everyone dismisses them.
You see in the movie Everybody, but they are dangerous, um.
And people just are assuming, Oh, she's a spinster, she
can't do anything. Actually, she's a spinster and a witch
and you should be scared. Um. And this was in
(23:11):
contrast to a wave of which is as moral beings
to aspire to in the nineties like Willow from Buffy,
Sabrina and Charmed when we did our episode on the Craft.
The craft was also kind of in conflict with that
whole idea. But a lot of these which is coming
out during third wade feminism and the nineties were shifting
from the previous telling of Oh they're bad too. Oh no,
(23:33):
they're like paragons of good. Um. So this was kind
of an interesting take at the time of they were bad,
but they were also funny and you could relate to them.
You could connect with these sisters. Um. Yeah, they were
transgressors of gender roles. They were uh too sexy, too old,
too ambitious, too ugly. And this movie certainly plays a lot,
(23:55):
as do a lot of movies with which is uh
on the need versus want of children because they don't
they don't like children, They don't want children, but they
do need them right to continue their plans uh and
b immortal. Um. So that's the sisters. Then you have Max,
(24:17):
who's yea the kind of bro character older brother. You've
got Danny. It was definitely painted as the annoying little sister,
but she's certainly I don't know, I could see it
being told from her perspective, and it would we would
have a different reading on her character. But anyway, Alison,
who is the love interest but also very smart, uh,
(24:41):
which she figures out the salt circle and all that stuff. Um.
Then Zachary binks they believe to older brother lost his
sister Emily and was turned into a cat by the
Sanderson sisters. Many of my friends had a crush on him.
Oh yeah, it was the heartthrow at that point. I
think he came around doing like Jonathan Taylor, Thomas and
all of them. So he been with the shaggy haired,
(25:02):
bowl cut hair dudes that everyone loved in those in
that time frame. It's just funny to me because he
did spend I mean what you see him like that
for maybe four minutes and the rest of the movie
he's a cat. We'll take about Do you remember the
movie Casper? I never saw Casper. Oh well, so in
Casper you have Devin Sawa and Christina Ritchie Um and
(25:25):
Devin saw it is not even the voice of the
ghosts throughout the movie, which is animated the entire time,
pops up for fifteen seconds and everybody was like, I
love him, I'm not gonna lie. I was one of
them as well, because they were also in um other
movies and I'm like, yeah, but yeah, so it doesn't matter.
(25:45):
He also was one of the shaggy haired blonde kids
at that time frame. Okay, that's that's funny. I mean,
I guess it's whatever you want onto someone who's there
so little. I mean, it's not like you didn't get
to know Factory through the cat right exactly. He loved
his sibling, he tried to save people, He was cursed
just like everyone else. All Right, Okay, I got I
(26:09):
mean it's someone who loves fictional characters and is that
had a crush on a cartoon character before. I can't judge,
so that's fair. But yeah, speaking of boy crushes, at
this point, there is Billy Butcherson, who was the zombie boyfriend.
By the way, does he not look like the character
from Edward Scissor Hands A little bit? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.
(26:31):
Though he cheated on Winnie with Sarah, he was the
one who was punished by Winnie again sisters first, which
is kind of a relief. I mean, you don't you
kind of feel bad for him At the same time,
at least it's not women against women. Yeah. And then,
of course there are two male bullies that get hung
in cages after harassing the sisters, and of course they
pick on everybody at the school, so you kind of feel, yeah,
(26:53):
you kind of want them to be in those cages.
So there's a cameo by Penny Marshall and her brother
Gary Marshal, and they are spouses, yeah in this one,
which is quite funny and every way, but of course
I love the two of them anyway, So yes, I'm
just as a devil now I remember for sure, let's
just be a running theme some kind of Penny Marshall
(27:15):
related fact in every movie episode. Amazing. Well, I know
Gary and Penny would put each other in each other's
films or have each other like Gary was in a
leak of their own opinion right, actually directed, but I
think they did that often. They were really close. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
um yeah. So that's pretty much hocus focusing. There's all
these themes of you know, sisterhood and sibling rivalry, but
(27:39):
also being protective of your sibling in particularly your sisters.
Um and I don't know, I I have a new
appreciation for uh because it is a very nostalgic film,
right where in certain movies, if you've seen enough, you're
not really paying attention to anything other than oh, this
part makes me feel warm because it reminds me of
all these other things. Or I can say this line
(28:01):
with gusto because I love it. Um. But yeah, now
I've especially thinking about the context of when it came out,
having these this close sisterly relationship and these characters who
are both funny but are bad and witches but everybody
loves them. It's pretty rare. Um. So I am very
(28:22):
excited for another rewatch, starting all over again. More witches. Yes, um.
So that's that for now, But now we need to
talk about the Witches. But first we're gonna pause for
a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
(28:52):
we're back. Thank you sponsor. Right, So, we did want
to talk about these two movies together, the Witches and
hocus Pocas, because there are specifically made and geared as
children's movies, but they both have very interesting takes on
witches and how they represented so we thought it would
be an interesting contrast to each other. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
(29:14):
So The Witches is a movie originally adapted from the
classic novel written by Rhodes all Uh and by the way,
he did actually see this, and uh, he wasn't a
big fan of the movie. According to one report, he
felt as if the movie was quote utterly appalling because
of the changes which were happier than his That does
not surprise me, um these changes in the movie. And
(29:35):
it was produced by Jim Henson Productions and was apparently
the last movie he was personally involved in. And though
it wasn't actually a big hitting theaters either, critics were
fans of it. And it still has a Route Tomato
score of so it's better than August Focused. Yes, it
was even given three out of four stars by famous
film critic Robert Ebert. And yes, it also has a
(29:57):
big cult following. I guess I'm a part of that
cult obviously. Um So. The movie was directed by Nicholas Rogue,
who was already known for his horror movie Don't Look Now,
Which Annie you watched? Yes, I actually watched this right
March fourteenth, right when quarantine asserted and I was looking
for that gift of his Donald's something like it's not
(30:18):
done well. That guy where he points and he has
the look of horror on his face. But this that's
actually invasion of the body santrs so I watched this
whole movie waiting for that havenit It never did. But
then I watched Invasion of the Body Snatchers and I
loved it. But anyway, yeah, that's why when you told
me this, Samantha, I was like, oh, I can see it. Yeah.
So him being the director of this horror movie, he
(30:40):
had plenty of controversy under his belt and was a
surprising choice to direct a children's film, as most of
his works were seen as overly risque and even to
explicit at that time, and some of them movies were
shelved apparently because it was too much. And unsurprisingly, the
movie has been deemed by many people as the scariest
children's move be ever, and I would agree. And although
(31:04):
although I do love this movie, I was surprised to
see so many articles written about it this year. But
it turns out, as I said, this marks the thirtieth
anniversary of the film released, so it's been thirty years
since it's been released, as well as the fact that
they're now talking about doing a remake with Anne Hathaway
playing the Grand High Witch and directed by Robert Zemecka's
so that should be interesting. Um accidentally timely, Yeah, I
(31:27):
really do, really, and many have contended to argue that
this was one of the most terrifying movies ever made
for children. So there's a debate about like, is it
just terrifying because it's a children's movie or is it
just terrifying and why are children watching it? So Rogue
even stated that at one point his child watched some
of the dailies I guess, and his child was so
(31:49):
terrified that he realized that he needed to edit several
of the scenes. So I wonder what that looked like. Um,
And I definitely have lasting memories of many terrifying scenes
that kept me awake for sure. Yeah, oh no, I
can definitely see as I was watching it they were
scenes where I'm like, oh, I'm sure that would have
(32:10):
kept me up. Yep. I had a real weird thing
about paintings and getting trapped in paintings, you know. I
have a weird thing about like people in paintings and
whether they're watching they're watching me. Well maybe it came
from this maybe. So for the plot, we meet Luke
played by Jason Fisher and his grandmother Helga played by
(32:31):
Madge Setter and in Norway, and she's telling Luca always
caution your tales of witches, who not only walk among
all of us, but they actively work to get rid
of all of the children in the world. The witches, though,
are good at hiding among regular people and can actually
they can be spotted because they have a purple tint
in their eyes, a rash on their head as they
(32:53):
are bald and have to wear wigs. They wear gloves
because they have claws and no toes, so square feet,
and an obvious dislike of the smell of children two,
which is they smell like dog droppings. And this is
actually another interesting thing I noticed when I was thinking
about witches in children's movies is they often have like
a smell aversion two children and it's a It's usually
(33:17):
like some kind of waste by products, right. I remember
when she said droppings. It was so weird to me
being from Colla j, Georgia, and of course they're you know,
and I think Norway, and I'm like, wait, what droppings?
Was drippings? What are droppings? So much of it's fancier
than it really does. It's like it just made it
up so much more upscale. And of course the cleaner
(33:38):
they are, the worst. They smell. So to bring home
the reality of the dangers of these witches, Helga tells
of her friend who disappeared from their village. As the
family of Erica scrambles to find her, we see her
pop up in a painting that was recently purchased by
her father. Not only has she suddenly appeared in a painting,
but we see her reposition at different places at different times,
(33:59):
and she grows up in the painting until one day
she disappears. That's saying, freaked me out. Yeah. So we
come back to the present day and we meet the
parents as they rush off for their date event, leaving
Luke with his grandmother. And at this point he has
his first interaction with a witch. As he plays in
his treehouse. He meets a woman who tries to entice
(34:21):
him with chocolates into snake. By the way, that would
not work for me, but Lucas obviously too smart for
that and calls out for his grandmother, who, by the way,
is told by the witch that she could not hear him,
so she could not help him. Freaking yeah, that's his
freaky uh. Later, we come back to the sad fact
that Luke's parents have died in a car accident because yes,
(34:44):
obviously all children's movies must have some type of tragedy,
and he moves in with his grandmother, Helgan, and they
moved to England. In their new life, we see more
obstacles for the parents. Helga is diagnosed with diabetes and
it is told she must learn to manage her health.
So we cut to Luke and Helga going on a
much needed vacation in a very spanky hotel soon after
(35:05):
Luke's birthday, uh, in which he's gifted with some white mice.
There there we meet Bruno, a very hungry, rich boy
that loves to sneak some of the lovely teacakes before
everyone else. His character reminded me he was one of
the things where I's like, this feels very British. Yeah,
I don't know why. Just the way he speaks feels
very British. It's not necessarily even his accident, just something
(35:25):
about it. I've never read the book. Uh do love
a lot of the children's book raal dal did, but
this is very similar to that character in Matilda the
boy who So I wonder if he has this as
a theme for hem Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh So
it's at this point we learned that the hotel is
also hosting convention for which is of course masquating as
(35:49):
the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Uh.
Here we meet the Grand High Witch, played by none
other than the wonderful Angelica Houston and her assistant, Miss Irving. Yeah,
this is when it gets a good luke while exploring
the grounds and running away from the hotel manager played
by Mr Bean if you all know who I'm talking about,
(36:10):
the famous English actor with his pet mice. We see
that they've come together to devise a plan to rid
the world of children by turning them into mice with
a potion that would be shared all over the world.
And can we talk about the revel for Angelica Houston
and her face as the actual witch, masterfully done by
Jim Henson's crew. Of course, her high, shrill voice and
(36:34):
disdain like it gave me nightmares, like even when she's
like talking and heaving almost like she's gonna vomit. Yeah,
giving nightmares. I'm not gonna lie. And it's at this
point they bring in their demonstration. Poor Bruno, Poor poor Bruno,
he's turned into a mouse. Um and we see him
scurry away. That whole thing was nightmarish, like his little
(36:56):
seizure and the green power what does that green fog everywhere?
But of course Luke has seen all of this and
has discovered them. And after he has discovered to have
been spying, Luke escapes to his room only to find
his grandmother unconscious in their room. And by the way,
there's some kind of relationship between the Grand High Witch
(37:18):
and the grandmother that they had met before, and I
think yes, and the grandmother lost her tips of her
fingers or no, the grandmother lost one of our fingers
to the Grand High Witch just put that in there.
Luke is then caught and turned into a mouse. Mhmm,
But no fear because Luke, using his mass abilities like
(37:39):
crawling and his tail. Of course, thinking this with the tail,
he sneaks the potion into the soup served to the witches,
turning them into mice, all but one, miss Irving, who
was banned from celebrating the rest of the witches. So
both Bruno and Luke are reunited with their families and
all they all return home. But unlike the book endings,
(38:00):
Irving has become a good which and not only turns
back into a boy, but goes on to set Bruno
back as well. And yes, Doll hated this ending, as
he argued, which is we're unredeemable and cruel. So Rogue
actually did do two endings, one to satisfy a Doll
and to go more with a book, and the original
(38:20):
happy or one that we see. And when they did
the test screen test, yeah, everyone hated. This is like
the reverse shining. The shining is the opposite in a
weird way. So it was like, okay, interesting, So they
kept the happier ending, which I'm not gonna lie. If
it was a bad ending, there may have been a
chance that I couldn't have watched it. I mean that
(38:43):
would have been a very tough thing as a kid. Um,
I was upset, like when we were watching and I
was like, oh my god, he's gonna be a mouse forever,
like he's the resolved for it. But I'm like white.
So there are some themes in controversy with than this movie,
of course. Um, there's quite a bit of conversation about
(39:03):
the whole women hating children thing. Women who can only
be either haggard or cruel, or mothers and caregivers and
actually played a lot on the stranger danger fearmongering from
this film, so we wanted to talk a little about it.
As I told you, there were several articles about pretty
much about why this is one of the most scary
movies ever for children. Um. The continued conversation, though, had
(39:25):
come up on the Hagen Spencer versus the mother Protector,
which is an obvious then to this movie. You have
one or the other, whether it's turning the idea that
women are all maternal and caring versus women who ripped
children away from their families and are evil and thrive
on the demise of children they never wanted. It's very divisive,
and it gets pretty. It gets dark pretty quickly, as
(39:46):
we mentioned in the tail of the Disappearing Young Girl,
seriously eerie to me. Um, and then well we to
look at feminism in this movie. Uh So, the point
that the film was used to tell tell the tale
of the unhappy, motherless hag who murders are sometimes steels
children has made many people feel that this is a
(40:07):
stereotypically misogynistic cautionary tales. Some have recently say they felt
it was more forth thinking. According to an article, UM,
they say author Caroline Kitneys have used it as quote
a hilarious feminist commentary on women, work and family, where
men are ineffective and women possess more power, something they
might prove horrifying to those frantically upholding the patriarchy. Right,
(40:29):
so it's goan to have been a back and forth
with them about is this feminist or is this anti feminist?
Should we be upset or should we laugh? I I
interpreted it as almost satirical, as almost like you're so
afraid of women with power and this is what scares you.
(40:49):
I don't know, like that there was some element of
it that was almost giving a knowing wink of like, yes,
there is the stereotype of ugly hag women who want
to kill children, But what does that say about the
fact that varies that stereotype? Right? So it does go
back and forth. Yeah, so, but back then it was
just so upfront and it was that point of third
(41:10):
wave feminism. So, so who is the villain here? You know?
Is it women in general who don't want children? Or
is it that the pagriarchy have to pen and only
can categorize these two very deep for children's movie. So
also and One of the big things that I saw
was the stranger danger concept um and as many have stated,
(41:32):
this brought fear for children with a new concept of
stranger danger which came around in the eighties. Not only
does this movie immediately place that fear within a child's mind,
but the movie and the book flips it with women
instead of men. Um, here is the hatred of children
that drives them, and as a child of the eighties nineties,
that's something children were taught to fear the whole Strangers
offering candy is a perfect setup that's gonna get you,
(41:55):
so you must be aware and be cautious. Yeah. Actually,
ever on Savor were just an episode on the ice
cream Truck, and it was so interesting to me because
they read all of these like beautiful nostalgic love memories
people had with ice cream truck, and I was like,
when I grew up, even at four years old, I
was like, no way in hell, right am I going
(42:15):
to follow music to kick? I meaning, you buy it.
It's not different than the store, but it just felt
so creepy, like here's this song, go outside and just
hope that nothing's gonna happen to me. Right, Definitely, there
were some cases in the eighties where children were abducted
in unmarked vans, and that's kind of that play that
came in. So you have this. Whole time when we
(42:37):
talked about good touch bad touch, it was always that
stranger danger level of conversation. Yeah, and this movie and
possibly the book brought that into context. This here's and
not only that, but trying to make you feel comfortable
with women, saying that women cannot be the predators here,
but they are so yeah. They That definitely gets into
(42:57):
the mind very quickly, and for children who was to
kid dapt right, So to say that this movie leaves
a lasting impression or an impact is an understatement, and
many still agree again that the overall horror of this
film is one for the record books, and many people
still have is the number one movie of the scariest
(43:18):
childhood movies that exist? Yeah, and again these artists, because
these articles were written the last couple of months. Yeah,
I was surprised how many articles I found. It's like
pages of them were like the scariest children's movie all
the time. Right, Look, yes, I agree, yes, but I'm
interested to see the rebate because they did talk about
(43:40):
Robert Remica said that he was making it more a
social Yeah, it's it's like it's said in the nineteen sixties,
Jim Courier. Yeah, and it's a black child. Yes, So
Octavia Spencer will be playing the grandmother, which is kind
of funny because the other grandmother was about fifteen years
older than her. Yeah, well, we'll have to see, We'll
(44:03):
have to see it certainly will be. We're getting two
remakes of these things. Well, Oergus focus is getting a
sequel that is getting remaca. UM. So we did want
to talk about some overall themes when it comes to
which is in children's movies, But first we're gonna pause
for one worker, break for a word, Timmer sponsor, and
(44:33):
we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So originally we were gonna
get into we we both we thought of prominent examples.
But the more I thought about this, the more I
feel like we're both very influenced by the product the
movies that are coming out in our era, because like
Sabrina was one we thought about, which was an interesting,
(44:56):
um contrast, because we do have the Netflix remake which
is much not not I would call it a children
made for children, UM, but the one in the nineties
certainly was. I mean it was a t G I
Friday Moved show, right, Yeah, yeah, I actually never saw it,
but I mean even just the clips and the vibe,
(45:17):
I was like, oh, yeah, you never watched that. No,
was that on cable? I didn't have a cable. It
wasn't on cable. It was on I believe it was
on ABC. Was on a Family Night show for a
long while. I know it was rebroadcast on what used
to be free Form whatever it was before then for
a little while. Yeah, so, but it was Clarissa explains
(45:38):
at all who was Nickelodeon jumped into that the show
as a teenager with Harvey and all of them. But yeah,
the new ones are definitely completely different. Um. So yeah,
that's the whole thing that there wasn't prominent devil worshiping
in the nineties sitcom Oh surprise, surprise. But they have
thought D and D was some anti evens um, well, yeah,
(46:03):
so the groups of examples we thought of, it really
does split pretty down the middle of like you do
have this good witch who is almost over the top
good um, and then you have the villain. And particularly
when you think about Disney movies, which we'll get into
in a second. There was an era where the witch
(46:26):
was bad in Disney movies and that's it, and that
is changing. But the reasons that it's changing are fascinating. Um.
I thought of double double toil and trouble. You you
often have that kind of dynamic cause they were twins
that it was Clara Stitchman who was originally going to
be I think in Hocus Polk. No, she's gonna be
(46:46):
in the Witches. Um. But anyway, so you've got the
good witch in the bad witch. Uh. It's a Wizard
of Oz kind of dichotomy of you can only be
one or the other, and that's it. You can only
be this sort of maternal thing or this evil children
hating one. Yeah, and certainly attitudes towards children and youth
(47:10):
in general. It's just one of the biggest recurring themes
I could think of, and depictions of witches and children's
movies and also love like when you think of that.
And I know this is not a children's movie, but
Practical Magic was geared as a teenage movie because it
was PG. Thirteen, but it kind of has that whole
effect as well. Of course, children are involved in that
as well and love and all of that. So you wonder,
(47:34):
you're like, what what is your ideas here? Yeah? Um,
and if you think of like hocus focus in particular, uh,
sucking the youth to peer young and beautiful, and that
whole idea that women's value and currency in society is
their youth and their beauty. Um. And like one of
(47:54):
the reasons they choose to focus on Danny thora Birch's
character to sucur youth, she says, You'll always be ugly.
You're the ugliest thing that's ever lived. And Whinnie is
so wounded by this insult. She's like, I have all
of these children options that would be much easier to get,
but you are the one you have insulted me. Yeah.
(48:17):
And it kind of that choosing vengeance and and losing
everything being too power hungry. Uh, perhaps too emotional, I
guess you could read it that way, and losing everything.
And then if you go back to Snow White, which
is one of the very first I mean that was
Disney's first movie, you have the queen who asks asked
(48:39):
a mirror, like who's the fairest of them all? Yeah,
she can't stand to not be the fairest of them all.
She must get rid of any competition. Yes, yes, women
competing against women. I mean that's the interesting thing about
who was focused is there is this kind of like
sisterly bond. The women competing against women is sort of
removed on that level, but on a societal level it's
(49:02):
still kind of there. Um. So that's interesting. And then
I did read, Uh, there are so many essays. This
should not have surprised me at all, but so many
essays have been written about Elsa from Frozen. Oh my gosh,
yes is she Yeah, it's a good power. We don't
(49:27):
know that she's got one known power anyway. Um. Yeah,
So she is one of the first Disney which is
especially the first I think that was good, but also
embraced her powers. Um. She was also the first to
use camp and heightened style of femininity, not to to
(49:48):
know evil. So if you think of like Mobile Efficent
or Ursula or yes, the Queen from Snow White, they
all have this like over the top kind of like
high college almost theater theatrical style, and also doesn't have
that at first, but when she goes into her big
musical number and kind of sheds it all. She does,
(50:08):
but she's still good. Um. But if you look at
the history of yeah, which is in Disney films in particular,
there is this over the top monstrous female desire that
aligns it with queerness. But there's also this fear of
middle aged sexual agency. And as as I was reading
(50:29):
these essays, there's just something you don't pick up on
as a kid, I didn't really get, like when Ursula
was giving aerial like here's how you get a man,
and she's like plumping her lips and doing this, So
I didn't pick up on that. But it's true. She's
like middle aged c which totally confident in her body.
She loves herself and I love her her loving herself, Yes,
(50:50):
but it's painted as a bad bit and quiet. Yeah. Yeah.
It quis power obviously, with family power and ambition, the
whole Witchcraft idea and the punishment and evil that comes
with it. Uh. And apparently I didn't realize, but it
(51:12):
is changing with New Disney. I guess if Elsa continues
on a stretch, is there any more new which is
coming about? So the saying I'm thinking of in particular
um delved into Elsa, UM Maleficent, the new Uh Angelica
Jolie Ones and then um, Meredith, who wasn't a witch,
(51:33):
but they were saying like she immediately breaks gender norms
and is like, I don't want to get married, maybe
I never want to get married. Go ahead to Clare
war Um. So kind of that female power and ambition thing.
And previously when there had been that sort of aberrant
(51:55):
which power, it was bad and you could see that
essaying when women have too much power ambition, it is bad.
But now that I mean people children love Elsa. I
don't know if you know this, but whoa, Um, I've
seen it. Yeah, they and in those movies too, they
paint the love is in between two women, whether that's
(52:18):
like two sisters or I haven't seen Maleficent so long,
but basically Aurora and lovicent Um and then Marida and
her mother. Instead of it being this like romantic rush
to get married, first time you meet a guy, it's
love and that's what you need and then your life
it's done and happy ever after. Um. In that case,
your power is essentially just finding a man, right. Yes,
(52:44):
I was just kidding, I just completely kidding. I was like, oh, Samath,
it comes out with a very yeah. Um not at all.
And then I mean, I feel like we could just
talk about a lot of this stuff forever in a
(53:06):
in a more detailed episode, and perhaps will be, because
again it's my favorite season and my favorite holiday. But
we were also discussing how in Harry Potter and in
most things where you have witches and warlocks and and wizards,
and it does feel that wizards are you know, there's
(53:27):
a wiseness attached to them and perhaps more of a
maybe it's just like less complicated, but it does feel
like I don't have a natural inclination to think they're bad,
whereas which is like, even though I don't think that anymore,
there is that in the back of my head kind
of Oh wait, I've seen so many bad witches? Is
(53:47):
that what you mean? Um? And we, I mean, we
use it as an insult or we have for in
our society forever. So I just watched a movie where
a woman just randomly shouted witch at a bar and
they tried to kill her. She just said it. Um,
I've watched a lot of bad horror reason, but what
would be a movie that did that? How is it
(54:09):
called They're watching? It was about a home improvement show
that went really wrong. Oh yeah, you're digging in something
real dud, you know, Okay, you're going down the well
on this one. Um. But yeah, I would love to
return to this and have a more in depth conversation
(54:31):
about some of these ideas. But but in the meantime,
I feel like that's a pretty good overview of the themes.
You see a lot with women and which is in
these children's movies, right, which I find fascinating. Uh. I
do want to see more of the ideas that we
see in adult films to translate into children's films. And
(54:51):
I guess technically Harry Potter did that mm hmm, which bad.
But you know whatever, newer ones are certainly laying with
a lot of this. Right again, I found I wish
I had way more time to prepare because I found
so manny. Oh so, I don't know why I just
(55:12):
popped in my head the teen which movie from eight
nine and the worst I think that was the worst
musical number in the Oh you've got my attention now.
But essentially it is eighteen rom calm that involves a
redheaded which and I can't remember much about it. I
remember loving it. Um, yeah, damn, I forgot about that
(55:35):
one too, Alright, like that might be another movie that
I have to make you watch, but I'm not gonna lie.
I can't attest to worth watching. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Okay,
Well we'll add it to the list and in the meantime, listeners.
If you have any movie you want us to add
to the list, police send them our way. Our email
(55:59):
is Tough Media momp Up at iHeart media dot com.
You can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I've
Never Told You, are on Twitter at mon Stuff Podcast. Thanks.
It's always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks guys,
Oh no, that was just one. Thank you, and thanks
to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. The
production of I Heart Radio for more podcasts, or my
Heart Radio is heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
(56:19):
you listen to your favorite shows.
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