June 20, 2025 • 36 mins
When it came out in 1996, Cheryl Dunye's film The Watermelon Woman was a first in many ways, and stirred up controversy and conversation. We talk intersecting identities, complex relationships, preserving history, and coming into yourself.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome stuff. I never told you protection of iHeartRadio.
And today we're talking about the groundbreaking, historic nineteen ninety
six film The water Wellon Woman, written, directed, and edited
(00:27):
and starring Cheryldonier, who, by the way, has done a
lot of great interviews, even some pretty recently.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I just like, don't like the fight that you called
it historic for nineteen ninety six, and I'm offended. I
want that to be noted. Okay, keep going.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It was historic and some of the things it did not.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, Oh geez, all right, but yes, you can find
a lot of good interviews with Cheryldonier recently done a
lot with Criterion because this new has been in a
lot of ways inducted into the Criterion collection. It's a
dramedy rom com semi autobiography that follows Cheryl's attempts to
(01:12):
uncover the history of Mammy, actress Fay Richards, who played
the Watermelon Woman, that's what she was credited as. This
was the first US film to be written by an
out black lesbian, and it went on to win critical
acclaim and so much more. It also got a lot
of pushback that we'll talk about later. It's interesting because
(01:37):
every every year when we're picking out movies for these
kind of events like Pride, we get the same sort
of movies on the list. This one's been on our
list like for years.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, And it's kind of sad how often it's like
a list hasn't expanded that much. But I was excited
to see this one. And it is really technically interesting
because it switches between different styles of film, So you've
got sixteen millimeter and sort of like a grainy filming
(02:12):
myself thing of the nineties, like two camcorder, you know. Yeah.
On top of that, it has a bunch of other
aspects like photos that gave it a documentary feel. It's
been rescreened at colleges. It's the subject of discussion and
just really left a lasting impression. Also, Yes, it came
(02:34):
out in the nineties. Glorious, glorious nineties transitions and fonts
just truly. Yeah, and it did it made me nostalgic
for video rental places.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that did make me laugh, which I feel like
was a center of a lot of nineties Yeah. Cool kids,
you either worked out the videos, uh, rental place, a
CD or record shop. Yeah, one of those two.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, h I loved it. In twenty twenty one,
the film This film was chosen by the Library of
Congress's National Film Registry. Her preservation for being quote cultury
historically are esthetically significant. So I mean again, it made
a lasting impression. That's a long time from nineteen ninety six,
(03:24):
I guess, all right. So here is the plot. Cheryl
is a black lesbian twenty something who works at a
video rental store in Philadelphia with her friend Tamara, who
is also a black lesbian. As a film person, particularly
interested in films from the thirties and forties, and especially
(03:46):
how black women were portrayed and often uncredited in them,
Cheryl decides to make a documentary about a black actress
simply credited as the Watermelon Woman in the fictional film
Plantation Memories. She wants to find out out who this
woman was and shed light on her story and maybe
learn more about herself alone way, and she keeps putting
(04:06):
it off by the way, She's like, I've got to
work on this project, and that it never does. But
we finally get to see her working on it. She
interviews an array of people, including.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Her mom who was actually her mom Oh okay, yeah,
until she learns the name of the actress is Faith Richardson,
and it's implied to her that Faith or Faye, was
in a relationship with the white lesbian director of the
film they worked on together.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And this really resonated with Cheryl for a lot of reasons,
and she also starts dating a white lesbian customer of
the video rental place that they both worked at, named Diana.
Another interview leads her to the Center for Lesbian Information
and Technology or CLIT, where she finds this autographed photo
of Fay dedicated to someone named June Walker. Diana then
(04:58):
comes in and says she can up Cheryl with Martha Page,
the sister of Martha Page, the director that was presumably
in a relationship with Faye. Meanwhile, Tamara accuses Cheryl of
wishing to be white, denouncing her relationship with Diana, who
she believes has a fetish for black women or black people.
Cheryl is able to contact June Walker, a black woman,
(05:22):
who informs Cheryl that they were in a relationship her
and Faye for two decades, but now Faye is dead.
Cheryl sets out to meet her in person, but June
is hospitalized before she arrives. Cheryl's given a letter from
June outlining the truth of her and Faye's relationship and
her hurt at the rumors that she was with Martha.
(05:46):
She pleads with Cheryl to tell the world the truth,
and Cheryl, who didn't get to meet Martha, who is
a strange from Tamara has broken up with Diana, completes
her documentary and is like, I have so much much
more to do, and that's where it ends. It's very
like it feels I've seen too many horror movies, found
(06:08):
footage horror movies.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I was thinking the same thing. I knew that was
gonna come.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Uh yeah, no, because I kept being like, but it
has that kind of feel of like here's this clip,
and here's this photo, and here's I know, I should
be thinking documentary, but I've found footage. Vibe was just
too strong. But yeah, I mean, and it's got it's
(06:33):
just so nineties. It's such a product of its time,
Like the way it transitions from scenes. I think that's
part of what had me thinking of it. Found footage.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It did because I wasn't quite sure the back and
forth of like, this is not obviously documentary for real,
because you're seeing her reactions about talking without and then
her filming herself, so it's like it's both.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It's a split yes, yes, and you know you have
her like kind of real life going alongside this project
that she's trying to do and you see the parallels
in that. But it is it would be like, just
(07:19):
have a text on screen and again the font's amazing,
and then it would move into another thing and I'm like, oh, okay,
that scenms over.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, a couple of buzzbuments where they would have one
sentence and then you'd move on. But wait, oh okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It's very much very nineties and when it came out
it did make a huge wave. It premiered at the
Berlin International Film Festival in nineteen ninety six and it
won the Teddy Prize. It won many other awards at
film festivals after that. However, this was the time of
(07:58):
a lot of strife around LGBTQ plus issues in the
United States, and a Republican congressman called it possibly pornographic,
which yes, when it comes to controversy, this film's three
hundred thousand dollars. Budget was financed in part by a
grant distributed by the National Endowment of the Arts, alongside
(08:20):
donations and fundraisers. However, the NEA funding came under intent
scrutiny after the film came out because it does have
a lesbian sex scene, and it was the funding structure
was restructured and people in Congress. Republicans in Congress were
basically saying, yeah, this is the government paying for porn.
(08:43):
We cannot have this. And I have to say, when
I read this, because I knew about this before I
watched it, I was like, really, And then I watched it,
I have to say, it was steamier than I thought
it would be.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It was ready for the nineties. I was shocked that
allowed for all of that to be seen and I
didn't notice did it have a rating?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So the one I watched is the re release that
happened kind of kind of recently, and it was like
PG thirteen.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Okay, oh really I.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Think at the time, I don't know what it was
at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
All right, well, but I thing it was was it
pre or when it was just PG and.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
R like that was the o eighties that heppened?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, okay, close. I was like, huh, very surprised it
was PG thirteen though, was still.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I don't know if it was. What I was watching
it on was using a different it's almost like a
TV system of rating instead of a movie system. Yeah,
I got you, So I'm not sure, but it was
like thirteen. I think it's a thirteen, and.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I was like, are we thirteen?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Okay? Okay, well, but it was. I had to admit.
It was steamier than I thought it would be, but
it wasn't anything.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Like, oh crazy obviously like any vagina. It was all
like boobs, which is typically okay, but still like again
because you usually when it's women, right, like that's an
automatic R if not X yeah and R yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
But I mean that was one of the ways it
was historic. Samantha is having this this sex scene in it,
and it was I mean, yeah, they really got down
to it. Okay. So here are some of the themes.
(10:48):
I think it's a very great example of intersecting identity
because you have Cheryl who is a black lesbian and
kind of deal with all of what that means to
her and what it means to people in her life
and how that impacts her. So you do get a
(11:11):
couple of instances throughout the movie. I feel like there's
a lot of instances of people being like too afraid
to say, oh, she was gay, like she hung out
of this place, and we know what that probably meant,
but it's not. It doesn't feel like it's coming from
(11:31):
a necessarily hateful place. But we do get like Martha's
sister saying, Oh, my sister, wasn't that kind of woman?
Do not spread these rumors, even though it's been like
confirmed or printed in all of these other things, being
that kind of woman being gay. So you have that,
(11:53):
and then you have the question of race, which comes
up in a lot of different ways in this. One
of the interesting ways I thought was because Cheryl kind
of does a history of black cinema, it's interesting to
hear and to see how she's like, you know, these
(12:17):
these movies that featured mostly black people were screened at
these theaters, or they were screened before these movies that
had largely white people or something. But how that kind
of all faded away because people wanted that like Hollywood movie.
But there used to be these theaters that were completely
(12:39):
dedicated to that, or these clubs or things like that.
That were just completely dedicated to that and they went away.
She goes to a bunch of them and they're all
closed up, like boarded up. So that's sort of gentrification
(13:01):
and just loss of culture our spaces to have that
culture in public. And then there's also a lot of
instances where she runs into white people gatekeeping her kind
of like assuming she's illiterate. She goes to the library
and the librarians like, did you do the most basic thing?
(13:24):
And they're like, yes, we did, yeah, kind of like
keeping her from information when you're talking about at the clit,
which is sort of a it's framed as like a
rules based thing, but it felt very like gatekeepy. She's
accosted by the police at one point who were like,
(13:47):
this can't be your camera, that's impossible, and that she
does have a lot of like the movie starts where
there her and her friend Tamera are filming at a
wedding and she's setting up a shot and this white
photographer steps directly front of her and she's like, what
(14:10):
do you think I'm doing here? Like just being undermined
and ignored, and this is her That's what she wants
to do. She wants to film. She wants to make
these things. Another line that really stuck out to me
was at the library when he said, check the black
section in the library, which, as we know, a lot
(14:33):
of stuff has come about this recently about the Dewey
decimal system and how it's set up. But he's just like, yeah,
go over to that one section. And then you've got Diana,
who is a well off white lesbian. The white girl
(14:53):
lesbian they meet at the rental store kind of hit
it up, but she doesn't really defend Cheryl when that
interviewee that she Martha's sister. She set up it's kind
of abusive towards Cheryl. She just says some things that
(15:15):
are off where you're like, I don't know about you,
and this causes a rift between Tamara and Cheryl. Tamara says,
all I see is that once again you're going out
with a white girl who want to be black, and
(15:36):
they do get into a lot of like disagreements about this.
Tamara also doesn't get why Cheryl would want to learn
more about an actor who played into these played these
racist characatures, but to sharel this is one of the
only ways she was seeing herself represented. But she also
just wanted to know who this person was. She saw
(15:56):
this movie and was like, who is this? I want
to know? But it does also put our rift in
in their relationship. Tamara also has a bad habit of
setting sharell up with not so great blind dates. Shall
we say so that it hm. I knew we were
(16:24):
talking about this before, but Samantha has the real secondhand
embarrassment thing. And I was watching that scene with the
karaoke at the beginning and I was like, Oh, Smith's
not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, I'm not happy, I'm not gonna lie in the
nineties acting and this was I think our first film, right,
so like of course she didn't have a budget and
all these things that she was bringing people in, but
yeah it did. I was like, Oh, this entire thing
is making me cringe so hard and every way, but
I love that it is represented here. For sure, I wonder,
(16:59):
I don't know, I've sure we could probably find a
interview with her talking about what would change today if
they could remake that movie, because everything in it it
still kind of stands, you know the fact that you know,
the erasure and trying to hunt things and people of color,
especially black women in this industry is hard to find today,
(17:20):
so it would be probably the same look with better acting,
not necessarily from her, but like in general, like that
the one as that were supposed to be like funny lines.
It took me a second because I was like, why
were they trying? It was, Oh, that's supposed to be funny,
you know. I'm thinking about the dude who played the
(17:41):
boss at the videotape store like oftentimes, and then the
white girl who played the coworker that scene where she
walks in to hit on the black woman, which was like,
h at clit. It looked like I thought they were
actually trying to have her act like I thought that
this was supposed to be a set up for her documentary,
and then I realized, oh, no, this is supposed to okay,
(18:04):
never mind like moments like that when I was like,
what's what is this? But all that to say is
I think it's such an amazing representation. There was a
lot of awkward moments. The singing. It was so awkward
that I can't get past the awkward part to make
it to be funny. Because the fact that her friends
were so ready the friends of the person that was
(18:25):
being set up were so ready to like root for her,
and I was like, oh no, boy, yeah, this film
was really interesting throwing back to the nineties for real.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, right, Well they did cut away
before she finished the song, so not.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Before the high note though, not before the high.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Note, but before she finished that song. Uh, but yeah,
that was that was pretty early on too. Yeah, it
was quickly on, yes, But I do think that was
one thing that was really interesting is seeing the complexity
(19:08):
of relationships with all these identities in mind and having
these disagreements and trying to work through them because no
community is a monolith. We've talked about that all the time.
So I thought that was really handled well of just
(19:29):
the kind of when you rub against someone who you
are friends with, or who you're interested in, or all
of those things. But this does bring us to another
big theme, which is something you mentioned history and representation,
and this is something we've talked about at length on
(19:51):
this show, is the importance of documenting history, the importance
of who's documenting it. We've just on so many books
or movies that are about this kind of very thing,
and that's in part because of things like a rasuer
purposeful erasure. This movie was dedicated to black actresses who
(20:15):
played this Mammy role, specifically Eat Butterfly McQueen, Hattie McDaniel,
and Louise Beavers and others who were often forgotten are
not credited. Fay Richards is fictional, and at the end
it says like, sometimes your story isn't there, so you
make one up. But as a stand in for them,
(20:36):
they couldn't afford the archival footage. But also it kind
of gives the whole thing more breathing room. Fay used
to sing in Philadelphia lesbian ballrooms as well, and that's
sort of how she Cheryl found her from people who
remembered her from there. The director was inspired to make
(20:59):
the movie after taking an African American film class and
learning that most black women from the thirties and forties
were uncredited. I also thought it was interesting that they
have this whole scene where they go to see I
think it's a friend or like an uncle of Tamaraz
and he's like kind of notoriously not great with women, right,
(21:21):
and he's like, Oh, I don't know who you were
talking about. I don't know what that is. This also
gave me a chance to learn about Camille Anna Pagnia,
who I didn't know but is a feminist who is
(21:45):
extremely controversial, and I was looking up her thoughts and
I was like, oh, dear, But just so Cheryl interviews
her and who it still exists as a real feminist,
(22:05):
and she's like, I don't think we're reading too much
into this mammy stereotype. We're doing all the like we're
thinking too much about this or whatever. She basically thinks
like feminism began to stalin esque, but she's got some
nobody's perfect, but she's got some problematic.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Views, like she she's not terf is she is she?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
No, she identifies, at least the brief search that I did,
as transgender. But she also doesn't think she made it
sound like it's not that big of a deal to her.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, well, I feel like that may be part of
the whole entirety of the film is the going back
and forth. And I've seen this with like you know,
conversations and race and all that. We wish everything was
so normalized that it wouldn't have to be a thing.
It doesn't. No one wants to characterize the thing it's
a big significant deal or have to like call yourself
trans you could just be a woman, you know, you
(23:07):
don't have to call yourself, you know, the Asian actor,
you can just be an actor, Like all these different conversations,
And I think this is a part of that play
in because it feels like Cheryl goes back and forth
and like she's attracted to who she's attracted to, why
can't she be? And on one side she has people
like you're you're attracted to a white woman who fetish
does a women or fletchhes black women specifically, And she's like,
(23:29):
but I really like her and we get along, and
then you come to the flip side that they're not wrong,
like the girlfriends are talking about having black boyfriends and
black boyfriends and black boyfriends and black girlfriends, and you
see her with a black woman obviously in something in
one and in another part, so like it does seem
that they're right, but this back and forth like why
can't it be just that?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And I think that's that conversation that this person which
I didn't realize she was a significant character, that I
didn't realize who she was at all. I was like, oh,
I thought she was just the fiction person brought into
this as well. I wonder if that's her true commentary.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I so I the first time I was reading about it,
they made it sound like she was playing into it, okay.
But then the second time, but then I looked her up, yeah,
and I was like, it doesn't this sounds like something
she would have said.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Because like, obviously Fay was a character and they're kind
of talking about that references like have you ever heard
of this woman? And she's like no, blah blah blah.
But this over the top stereotype is everything turns into
that conversation that most white liberals or white feminists especially
would say. It would be like why does it have
to be about race? And you're like, ugh, that is
(24:36):
that question, but it does because you are racist, Like
these are those comments, so like these things are inherently
bad and systemically there is racism, so we have to
talk about race, but yes, we get it. We would
love to be like why does it have to be
but a woman like, yes we do, but we know
because that is held up against us. We have to
(24:58):
talk about the fact that we are women, you know,
all these different things, and it feels very like it
feels like a push against that white feminist, especially white
lesbian feminists in that arc, that Clitt organization the entire time.
And I know this was supposed to be a funny
moment because the girls like the constantly going run by volunteers.
(25:18):
It's a nonprofit by volunteers. We'll get to you in
six months, like this type of conversation, and as she's
trying to do research, she's like, don't take pictures like
so like on top of her for every little thing
as well, but at the same time braggy about the
fact that I don't make any money off of this.
I'm cool. Like that kind of scenario is very interesting
(25:39):
in that conversation and also in having that forethought about
the fact that many black women weren't weren't known or
their name wasn't public out there when it came to
white art. But in actuality, this Fay was a huge
star in the black film world. She was started in
many of films and they were trying to push her
(25:59):
to be the big star of most films. They had
that one Faith film where I guess you have that
either younger daughter or sibling who wants to be white,
and that go back and forth in face character being
like why do you have to be Why can't you
be who you are? All these things like there's so
much like on in this that was so crammed packed
(26:20):
that I feel like we can we could talk forever
about and dissect one portion of that because it had
that level of like, once again we had this very famous,
supposedly not famous actress but actually she is. And the
only reason they've found her is because she went through
black archives which were scattered away. And then the whole
(26:41):
feminist clet organization talking about, well, we did get some money,
but it's only for this, and then they only have
small box and it's taking them extra long to get
to this point or even like they're not paying attention
to it even though they even may have gotten the funding.
There's again this whole broad stroke things happening, that back
(27:01):
and forth of like, yes it exists, but I couldn't
find it, and when I found it, I found slightly
she actually was well known. They just didn't think that
she was well known because of racure. This isn't this
And then also like from what I can gather, you
can tell me what you think. Cheryl was not necessarily
(27:22):
impressed but intrigued by the idea that Martha and Fay
were together and felt like maybe it was love because
all the pictures looked really like telling and loving and kind.
But then we have June coming in and be like, no,
that was something that she was very ashamed of, and like,
whose shame is this? Is this Another conversation was this
is a parallel as it's supposed to be to Cheryl's
(27:43):
current life with her friends or is this you know
there's so many like back and forth in that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yes, And that was a theme that I had to
bring up, is that you do get kind of get
like a blurring of fay story in Cheryl's story because
you see similar things. Cheryl starts the film being very
like she tries to say she's a filmmaker and then
stops and I was like, well, not really a filmmaker,
(28:14):
but I do. I do. I work at a rental
store and around movies. Like she just kind of is
not secure in what she does. But by the end
that's not the case anymore. And you also have her
dating Diana, this white woman, and having these questions about it,
these arguments with her friends about it, and so it
(28:37):
is interesting to see the commonalities that they have and
I think she feels a real connection to face story
and she's really motivated to tell it. And when she
does finally contact June, who it was like, No, I've
been with Fay for twenty years until she died. This
(28:59):
was a why she was ashamed of it? Are she
kind of it? To me? It kind of sounds like
she had to do.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It exploitation seemed to be yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, exactly. So she had to sort of date her
to get into movies. And she tells Cheryl in a note,
you know, please tell this history, Please tell the truth.
This is what needs to be out there, and she,
(29:31):
as far as we know, never gets to meet June,
just has this letter. But it is kind of that
idea that we've been talking about a lot, I feel
like lately, of learning the full truth of someone. Because
all she had was this name, the Watermelon Woman. She
(29:53):
was interviewing people on the street. No one knew who
it was. She was like going to experts and a
lot of them were like, I don't know who that is.
And then through her research she found this whole person
whose story had been told in this one way that
(30:13):
was incorrect. And so I think that that's a really
powerful thing. But Also alongside that, you have Cheryl's own
story of coming into yourself and figuring yourself out, because
she has this whole conversation where she's like, you know what,
I'm still figuring things out, but she does settle into
(30:36):
the idea of I am a storyteller filmmaker, and I
have so much more to do. And here's a quote.
Most importantly, what I understand is that I'm going to
be the one who says I'm a black lesbian filmmaker
who's just beginning, but I'm going to say a lot
more and have a lot more work to do. So
(30:58):
she started the movie where they were kind of ribbing
her about you you always say you're going to work
on this project. I mean, you never do, and then
she did and she made it, and now she is
going to do other things right.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
They're also is like the friendship because she talks about
lots of friendships. At the end of it, she's like,
I lost this, I lost this, I lost this, but
I got this. Maybe we'll fix this. There's this conversation
and I don't know, I think and I do know
many respect to like her dabbling into filmed, her wanting
to do want dating, Diane all these things, which by
(31:37):
the way, Tamrell was right there being like, yeah, you
should go after her. Why don't you go doctor her
like at the very beginning, So it was really odd
that she flipped real quick. Maybe that was the girlfriend's influence,
because the girlfriend was the one that really had the
big problem with her and then kind of built up.
But it seemed like there was including the fact that
June when you were when you see Cheryl talking to
June on the phone and she was like it almost
(31:58):
is questioning how black are you? What type of black
person are you? Can you prove? How do you make
your colors? You know, asking that as well as like
that conversation in which not only are they saying maybe
Diana just has a fetish with trying to be white.
You're trying to do these things. That is too much,
You're too overachieving. Like the friend was not nice. I
(32:19):
will say Camra was not nice. She was not very
supportive in a lot of that. Of course, both of
them had a back and forth, but like it felt
kind of like maybe that was a part of the
journey as well. Again that she came out with like
I am black and I am a black queer filmmaker.
I'm a lesbian filmmaker, so there doesn't need to be
this question. I don't understand why I feel like I
(32:39):
have to be questioned. But again, the back and forth
of being like, yeah, but Diana did turn out to
be exactly what they thought she was in one essence,
especially when you see the interaction between the sister of
Martha and the three of them, because at the end
you have, oh, a black woman who obviously is a
housekeeper there. But the way that set up came in,
(33:01):
I was like, oh, that was very purposeful in that
because part of the question was with Martha. Not only
was she offended by the idea that she was queer
in any way, that she was a lesbian, but she
was really offended at the idea that she would be
with a black woman. You know it kind of that's
kind of the implication in that conversation, and so like
(33:25):
there's a whole level of questioning her search in this
as well, which I'm sure again as you were saying,
is that question that they had in trying to appease
white people to make it to finally being herself from
the film world. So there's there's that whole back and
forth in that as well a lot of thoughts. It's
(33:45):
definitely a coming of age or coming into your own.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yes, yes it is. And I love that it's still
being screened at colleges. I love that Ryl Dunie is
still doing these interviews. But yeah, I mean, I would
love listeners from who've never seen it, who were younger.
Let us know, the nineties, the nineties, the nineties, it
(34:17):
was pretty great. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yeah. It took me a good twenty minute to
get comfortable and then I was like, oh my god,
this is all awkward.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh and the technology, I didn't even talk about that,
but hmm, it's good. It's all there for you if
you would like it.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
If you need a time machine to know what historically,
and he says happened in the nineties, go check it out.
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
That is a good one thing I did want to
bring up that kind of annoyed me. It is historic
because this was the first time an out black lesbian
woman and the US directed a movie. But I did
get kind of annoyed about how many reviews I found
of it were like, it's a niche within a niche
(35:05):
within a niche, and I'm like, it really shouldn't be.
I feel like there's one niche maybe, but the rest
of it should be.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
It's an independent film, right, and it's a niche for
the times, but it shouldn't be today.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
No, Like I because I get I think what they
meant was, you know, we don't get a lot of
movies like this, That is true. I don't think that
means it's a niche, right, I think that's a different problem.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
But uh.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad we finally watched. It's been
on our list for years.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It has it has. We bought it up and we're like, oh,
well wait, because we couldn't find it it.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I did too, I did too, But I recommend it.
I think uh it obviously has a lot of salient
conversations that are still relevant today. But all right, listeners,
if you have any thoughts about this movie or what
should be our next movie, please let us know. You
(36:10):
can email us at Hello at Steffaniefertoldo dot com. You
can find us on Blue Scott Momster podcast on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You for us
on YouTube, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
super Duce Christina, executive Prus Maya, and a contribuer Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Steffan Never
Told You's Booktion of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts
on my Heart Radio, you can check out the art
(36:31):
Radio app Apple Podcasts, or we listen to your favorite
shows
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome stuff. I never told you protection of iHeartRadio.
And today we're talking about the groundbreaking, historic nineteen ninety
six film The water Wellon Woman, written, directed, and edited
(00:27):
and starring Cheryldonier, who, by the way, has done a
lot of great interviews, even some pretty recently.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I just like, don't like the fight that you called
it historic for nineteen ninety six, and I'm offended. I
want that to be noted. Okay, keep going.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It was historic and some of the things it did not.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, Oh geez, all right, but yes, you can find
a lot of good interviews with Cheryldonier recently done a
lot with Criterion because this new has been in a
lot of ways inducted into the Criterion collection. It's a
dramedy rom com semi autobiography that follows Cheryl's attempts to
(01:12):
uncover the history of Mammy, actress Fay Richards, who played
the Watermelon Woman, that's what she was credited as. This
was the first US film to be written by an
out black lesbian, and it went on to win critical
acclaim and so much more. It also got a lot
of pushback that we'll talk about later. It's interesting because
(01:37):
every every year when we're picking out movies for these
kind of events like Pride, we get the same sort
of movies on the list. This one's been on our
list like for years.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, And it's kind of sad how often it's like
a list hasn't expanded that much. But I was excited
to see this one. And it is really technically interesting
because it switches between different styles of film, So you've
got sixteen millimeter and sort of like a grainy filming
(02:12):
myself thing of the nineties, like two camcorder, you know. Yeah.
On top of that, it has a bunch of other
aspects like photos that gave it a documentary feel. It's
been rescreened at colleges. It's the subject of discussion and
just really left a lasting impression. Also, Yes, it came
(02:34):
out in the nineties. Glorious, glorious nineties transitions and fonts
just truly. Yeah, and it did it made me nostalgic
for video rental places.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that did make me laugh, which I feel like
was a center of a lot of nineties Yeah. Cool kids,
you either worked out the videos, uh, rental place, a
CD or record shop. Yeah, one of those two.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, h I loved it. In twenty twenty one,
the film This film was chosen by the Library of
Congress's National Film Registry. Her preservation for being quote cultury
historically are esthetically significant. So I mean again, it made
a lasting impression. That's a long time from nineteen ninety six,
(03:24):
I guess, all right. So here is the plot. Cheryl
is a black lesbian twenty something who works at a
video rental store in Philadelphia with her friend Tamara, who
is also a black lesbian. As a film person, particularly
interested in films from the thirties and forties, and especially
(03:46):
how black women were portrayed and often uncredited in them,
Cheryl decides to make a documentary about a black actress
simply credited as the Watermelon Woman in the fictional film
Plantation Memories. She wants to find out out who this
woman was and shed light on her story and maybe
learn more about herself alone way, and she keeps putting
(04:06):
it off by the way, She's like, I've got to
work on this project, and that it never does. But
we finally get to see her working on it. She
interviews an array of people, including.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Her mom who was actually her mom Oh okay, yeah,
until she learns the name of the actress is Faith Richardson,
and it's implied to her that Faith or Faye, was
in a relationship with the white lesbian director of the
film they worked on together.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And this really resonated with Cheryl for a lot of reasons,
and she also starts dating a white lesbian customer of
the video rental place that they both worked at, named Diana.
Another interview leads her to the Center for Lesbian Information
and Technology or CLIT, where she finds this autographed photo
of Fay dedicated to someone named June Walker. Diana then
(04:58):
comes in and says she can up Cheryl with Martha Page,
the sister of Martha Page, the director that was presumably
in a relationship with Faye. Meanwhile, Tamara accuses Cheryl of
wishing to be white, denouncing her relationship with Diana, who
she believes has a fetish for black women or black people.
Cheryl is able to contact June Walker, a black woman,
(05:22):
who informs Cheryl that they were in a relationship her
and Faye for two decades, but now Faye is dead.
Cheryl sets out to meet her in person, but June
is hospitalized before she arrives. Cheryl's given a letter from
June outlining the truth of her and Faye's relationship and
her hurt at the rumors that she was with Martha.
(05:46):
She pleads with Cheryl to tell the world the truth,
and Cheryl, who didn't get to meet Martha, who is
a strange from Tamara has broken up with Diana, completes
her documentary and is like, I have so much much
more to do, and that's where it ends. It's very
like it feels I've seen too many horror movies, found
(06:08):
footage horror movies.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I was thinking the same thing. I knew that was
gonna come.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Uh yeah, no, because I kept being like, but it
has that kind of feel of like here's this clip,
and here's this photo, and here's I know, I should
be thinking documentary, but I've found footage. Vibe was just
too strong. But yeah, I mean, and it's got it's
(06:33):
just so nineties. It's such a product of its time,
Like the way it transitions from scenes. I think that's
part of what had me thinking of it. Found footage.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It did because I wasn't quite sure the back and
forth of like, this is not obviously documentary for real,
because you're seeing her reactions about talking without and then
her filming herself, so it's like it's both.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
It's a split yes, yes, and you know you have
her like kind of real life going alongside this project
that she's trying to do and you see the parallels
in that. But it is it would be like, just
(07:19):
have a text on screen and again the font's amazing,
and then it would move into another thing and I'm like, oh, okay,
that scenms over.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, a couple of buzzbuments where they would have one
sentence and then you'd move on. But wait, oh okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It's very much very nineties and when it came out
it did make a huge wave. It premiered at the
Berlin International Film Festival in nineteen ninety six and it
won the Teddy Prize. It won many other awards at
film festivals after that. However, this was the time of
(07:58):
a lot of strife around LGBTQ plus issues in the
United States, and a Republican congressman called it possibly pornographic,
which yes, when it comes to controversy, this film's three
hundred thousand dollars. Budget was financed in part by a
grant distributed by the National Endowment of the Arts, alongside
(08:20):
donations and fundraisers. However, the NEA funding came under intent
scrutiny after the film came out because it does have
a lesbian sex scene, and it was the funding structure
was restructured and people in Congress. Republicans in Congress were
basically saying, yeah, this is the government paying for porn.
(08:43):
We cannot have this. And I have to say, when
I read this, because I knew about this before I
watched it, I was like, really, And then I watched it,
I have to say, it was steamier than I thought
it would be.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It was ready for the nineties. I was shocked that
allowed for all of that to be seen and I
didn't notice did it have a rating?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So the one I watched is the re release that
happened kind of kind of recently, and it was like
PG thirteen.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Okay, oh really I.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Think at the time, I don't know what it was
at the time.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
All right, well, but I thing it was was it
pre or when it was just PG and.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
R like that was the o eighties that heppened?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, okay, close. I was like, huh, very surprised it
was PG thirteen though, was still.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I don't know if it was. What I was watching
it on was using a different it's almost like a
TV system of rating instead of a movie system. Yeah,
I got you, So I'm not sure, but it was
like thirteen. I think it's a thirteen, and.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I was like, are we thirteen?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Okay? Okay, well, but it was. I had to admit.
It was steamier than I thought it would be, but
it wasn't anything.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Like, oh crazy obviously like any vagina. It was all
like boobs, which is typically okay, but still like again
because you usually when it's women, right, like that's an
automatic R if not X yeah and R yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
But I mean that was one of the ways it
was historic. Samantha is having this this sex scene in it,
and it was I mean, yeah, they really got down
to it. Okay. So here are some of the themes.
(10:48):
I think it's a very great example of intersecting identity
because you have Cheryl who is a black lesbian and
kind of deal with all of what that means to
her and what it means to people in her life
and how that impacts her. So you do get a
(11:11):
couple of instances throughout the movie. I feel like there's
a lot of instances of people being like too afraid
to say, oh, she was gay, like she hung out
of this place, and we know what that probably meant,
but it's not. It doesn't feel like it's coming from
(11:31):
a necessarily hateful place. But we do get like Martha's
sister saying, Oh, my sister, wasn't that kind of woman?
Do not spread these rumors, even though it's been like
confirmed or printed in all of these other things, being
that kind of woman being gay. So you have that,
(11:53):
and then you have the question of race, which comes
up in a lot of different ways in this. One
of the interesting ways I thought was because Cheryl kind
of does a history of black cinema, it's interesting to
hear and to see how she's like, you know, these
(12:17):
these movies that featured mostly black people were screened at
these theaters, or they were screened before these movies that
had largely white people or something. But how that kind
of all faded away because people wanted that like Hollywood movie.
But there used to be these theaters that were completely
(12:39):
dedicated to that, or these clubs or things like that.
That were just completely dedicated to that and they went away.
She goes to a bunch of them and they're all
closed up, like boarded up. So that's sort of gentrification
(13:01):
and just loss of culture our spaces to have that
culture in public. And then there's also a lot of
instances where she runs into white people gatekeeping her kind
of like assuming she's illiterate. She goes to the library
and the librarians like, did you do the most basic thing?
(13:24):
And they're like, yes, we did, yeah, kind of like
keeping her from information when you're talking about at the clit,
which is sort of a it's framed as like a
rules based thing, but it felt very like gatekeepy. She's
accosted by the police at one point who were like,
(13:47):
this can't be your camera, that's impossible, and that she
does have a lot of like the movie starts where
there her and her friend Tamera are filming at a
wedding and she's setting up a shot and this white
photographer steps directly front of her and she's like, what
(14:10):
do you think I'm doing here? Like just being undermined
and ignored, and this is her That's what she wants
to do. She wants to film. She wants to make
these things. Another line that really stuck out to me
was at the library when he said, check the black
section in the library, which, as we know, a lot
(14:33):
of stuff has come about this recently about the Dewey
decimal system and how it's set up. But he's just like, yeah,
go over to that one section. And then you've got Diana,
who is a well off white lesbian. The white girl
(14:53):
lesbian they meet at the rental store kind of hit
it up, but she doesn't really defend Cheryl when that
interviewee that she Martha's sister. She set up it's kind
of abusive towards Cheryl. She just says some things that
(15:15):
are off where you're like, I don't know about you,
and this causes a rift between Tamara and Cheryl. Tamara says,
all I see is that once again you're going out
with a white girl who want to be black, and
(15:36):
they do get into a lot of like disagreements about this.
Tamara also doesn't get why Cheryl would want to learn
more about an actor who played into these played these
racist characatures, but to sharel this is one of the
only ways she was seeing herself represented. But she also
just wanted to know who this person was. She saw
(15:56):
this movie and was like, who is this? I want
to know? But it does also put our rift in
in their relationship. Tamara also has a bad habit of
setting sharell up with not so great blind dates. Shall
we say so that it hm. I knew we were
(16:24):
talking about this before, but Samantha has the real secondhand
embarrassment thing. And I was watching that scene with the
karaoke at the beginning and I was like, Oh, Smith's
not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, I'm not happy, I'm not gonna lie in the
nineties acting and this was I think our first film, right,
so like of course she didn't have a budget and
all these things that she was bringing people in, but
yeah it did. I was like, Oh, this entire thing
is making me cringe so hard and every way, but
I love that it is represented here. For sure, I wonder,
(16:59):
I don't know, I've sure we could probably find a
interview with her talking about what would change today if
they could remake that movie, because everything in it it
still kind of stands, you know the fact that you know,
the erasure and trying to hunt things and people of color,
especially black women in this industry is hard to find today,
(17:20):
so it would be probably the same look with better acting,
not necessarily from her, but like in general, like that
the one as that were supposed to be like funny lines.
It took me a second because I was like, why
were they trying? It was, Oh, that's supposed to be funny,
you know. I'm thinking about the dude who played the
(17:41):
boss at the videotape store like oftentimes, and then the
white girl who played the coworker that scene where she
walks in to hit on the black woman, which was like,
h at clit. It looked like I thought they were
actually trying to have her act like I thought that
this was supposed to be a set up for her documentary,
and then I realized, oh, no, this is supposed to okay,
(18:04):
never mind like moments like that when I was like,
what's what is this? But all that to say is
I think it's such an amazing representation. There was a
lot of awkward moments. The singing. It was so awkward
that I can't get past the awkward part to make
it to be funny. Because the fact that her friends
were so ready the friends of the person that was
(18:25):
being set up were so ready to like root for her,
and I was like, oh no, boy, yeah, this film
was really interesting throwing back to the nineties for real.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, right, Well they did cut away
before she finished the song, so not.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Before the high note though, not before the high.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Note, but before she finished that song. Uh, but yeah,
that was that was pretty early on too. Yeah, it
was quickly on, yes, But I do think that was
one thing that was really interesting is seeing the complexity
(19:08):
of relationships with all these identities in mind and having
these disagreements and trying to work through them because no
community is a monolith. We've talked about that all the time.
So I thought that was really handled well of just
(19:29):
the kind of when you rub against someone who you
are friends with, or who you're interested in, or all
of those things. But this does bring us to another
big theme, which is something you mentioned history and representation,
and this is something we've talked about at length on
(19:51):
this show, is the importance of documenting history, the importance
of who's documenting it. We've just on so many books
or movies that are about this kind of very thing,
and that's in part because of things like a rasuer
purposeful erasure. This movie was dedicated to black actresses who
(20:15):
played this Mammy role, specifically Eat Butterfly McQueen, Hattie McDaniel,
and Louise Beavers and others who were often forgotten are
not credited. Fay Richards is fictional, and at the end
it says like, sometimes your story isn't there, so you
make one up. But as a stand in for them,
(20:36):
they couldn't afford the archival footage. But also it kind
of gives the whole thing more breathing room. Fay used
to sing in Philadelphia lesbian ballrooms as well, and that's
sort of how she Cheryl found her from people who
remembered her from there. The director was inspired to make
(20:59):
the movie after taking an African American film class and
learning that most black women from the thirties and forties
were uncredited. I also thought it was interesting that they
have this whole scene where they go to see I
think it's a friend or like an uncle of Tamaraz
and he's like kind of notoriously not great with women, right,
(21:21):
and he's like, Oh, I don't know who you were
talking about. I don't know what that is. This also
gave me a chance to learn about Camille Anna Pagnia,
who I didn't know but is a feminist who is
(21:45):
extremely controversial, and I was looking up her thoughts and
I was like, oh, dear, But just so Cheryl interviews
her and who it still exists as a real feminist,
(22:05):
and she's like, I don't think we're reading too much
into this mammy stereotype. We're doing all the like we're
thinking too much about this or whatever. She basically thinks
like feminism began to stalin esque, but she's got some
nobody's perfect, but she's got some problematic.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Views, like she she's not terf is she is she?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
No, she identifies, at least the brief search that I did,
as transgender. But she also doesn't think she made it
sound like it's not that big of a deal to her.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, well, I feel like that may be part of
the whole entirety of the film is the going back
and forth. And I've seen this with like you know,
conversations and race and all that. We wish everything was
so normalized that it wouldn't have to be a thing.
It doesn't. No one wants to characterize the thing it's
a big significant deal or have to like call yourself
trans you could just be a woman, you know, you
(23:07):
don't have to call yourself, you know, the Asian actor,
you can just be an actor, Like all these different conversations,
And I think this is a part of that play
in because it feels like Cheryl goes back and forth
and like she's attracted to who she's attracted to, why
can't she be? And on one side she has people
like you're you're attracted to a white woman who fetish
does a women or fletchhes black women specifically, And she's like,
(23:29):
but I really like her and we get along, and
then you come to the flip side that they're not wrong,
like the girlfriends are talking about having black boyfriends and
black boyfriends and black boyfriends and black girlfriends, and you
see her with a black woman obviously in something in
one and in another part, so like it does seem
that they're right, but this back and forth like why
can't it be just that?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And I think that's that conversation that this person which
I didn't realize she was a significant character, that I
didn't realize who she was at all. I was like, oh,
I thought she was just the fiction person brought into
this as well. I wonder if that's her true commentary.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I so I the first time I was reading about it,
they made it sound like she was playing into it, okay.
But then the second time, but then I looked her up, yeah,
and I was like, it doesn't this sounds like something
she would have said.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Because like, obviously Fay was a character and they're kind
of talking about that references like have you ever heard
of this woman? And she's like no, blah blah blah.
But this over the top stereotype is everything turns into
that conversation that most white liberals or white feminists especially
would say. It would be like why does it have
to be about race? And you're like, ugh, that is
(24:36):
that question, but it does because you are racist, Like
these are those comments, so like these things are inherently
bad and systemically there is racism, so we have to
talk about race, but yes, we get it. We would
love to be like why does it have to be
but a woman like, yes we do, but we know
because that is held up against us. We have to
(24:58):
talk about the fact that we are women, you know,
all these different things, and it feels very like it
feels like a push against that white feminist, especially white
lesbian feminists in that arc, that Clitt organization the entire time.
And I know this was supposed to be a funny
moment because the girls like the constantly going run by volunteers.
(25:18):
It's a nonprofit by volunteers. We'll get to you in
six months, like this type of conversation, and as she's
trying to do research, she's like, don't take pictures like
so like on top of her for every little thing
as well, but at the same time braggy about the
fact that I don't make any money off of this.
I'm cool. Like that kind of scenario is very interesting
(25:39):
in that conversation and also in having that forethought about
the fact that many black women weren't weren't known or
their name wasn't public out there when it came to
white art. But in actuality, this Fay was a huge
star in the black film world. She was started in
many of films and they were trying to push her
(25:59):
to be the big star of most films. They had
that one Faith film where I guess you have that
either younger daughter or sibling who wants to be white,
and that go back and forth in face character being
like why do you have to be Why can't you
be who you are? All these things like there's so
much like on in this that was so crammed packed
(26:20):
that I feel like we can we could talk forever
about and dissect one portion of that because it had
that level of like, once again we had this very famous,
supposedly not famous actress but actually she is. And the
only reason they've found her is because she went through
black archives which were scattered away. And then the whole
(26:41):
feminist clet organization talking about, well, we did get some money,
but it's only for this, and then they only have
small box and it's taking them extra long to get
to this point or even like they're not paying attention
to it even though they even may have gotten the funding.
There's again this whole broad stroke things happening, that back
(27:01):
and forth of like, yes it exists, but I couldn't
find it, and when I found it, I found slightly
she actually was well known. They just didn't think that
she was well known because of racure. This isn't this
And then also like from what I can gather, you
can tell me what you think. Cheryl was not necessarily
(27:22):
impressed but intrigued by the idea that Martha and Fay
were together and felt like maybe it was love because
all the pictures looked really like telling and loving and kind.
But then we have June coming in and be like, no,
that was something that she was very ashamed of, and like,
whose shame is this? Is this Another conversation was this
is a parallel as it's supposed to be to Cheryl's
(27:43):
current life with her friends or is this you know
there's so many like back and forth in that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yes, And that was a theme that I had to
bring up, is that you do get kind of get
like a blurring of fay story in Cheryl's story because
you see similar things. Cheryl starts the film being very
like she tries to say she's a filmmaker and then
stops and I was like, well, not really a filmmaker,
(28:14):
but I do. I do. I work at a rental
store and around movies. Like she just kind of is
not secure in what she does. But by the end
that's not the case anymore. And you also have her
dating Diana, this white woman, and having these questions about it,
these arguments with her friends about it, and so it
(28:37):
is interesting to see the commonalities that they have and
I think she feels a real connection to face story
and she's really motivated to tell it. And when she
does finally contact June, who it was like, No, I've
been with Fay for twenty years until she died. This
(28:59):
was a why she was ashamed of it? Are she
kind of it? To me? It kind of sounds like
she had to do.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It exploitation seemed to be yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, exactly. So she had to sort of date her
to get into movies. And she tells Cheryl in a note,
you know, please tell this history, Please tell the truth.
This is what needs to be out there, and she,
(29:31):
as far as we know, never gets to meet June,
just has this letter. But it is kind of that
idea that we've been talking about a lot, I feel
like lately, of learning the full truth of someone. Because
all she had was this name, the Watermelon Woman. She
(29:53):
was interviewing people on the street. No one knew who
it was. She was like going to experts and a
lot of them were like, I don't know who that is.
And then through her research she found this whole person
whose story had been told in this one way that
(30:13):
was incorrect. And so I think that that's a really
powerful thing. But Also alongside that, you have Cheryl's own
story of coming into yourself and figuring yourself out, because
she has this whole conversation where she's like, you know what,
I'm still figuring things out, but she does settle into
(30:36):
the idea of I am a storyteller filmmaker, and I
have so much more to do. And here's a quote.
Most importantly, what I understand is that I'm going to
be the one who says I'm a black lesbian filmmaker
who's just beginning, but I'm going to say a lot
more and have a lot more work to do. So
(30:58):
she started the movie where they were kind of ribbing
her about you you always say you're going to work
on this project. I mean, you never do, and then
she did and she made it, and now she is
going to do other things right.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
They're also is like the friendship because she talks about
lots of friendships. At the end of it, she's like,
I lost this, I lost this, I lost this, but
I got this. Maybe we'll fix this. There's this conversation
and I don't know, I think and I do know
many respect to like her dabbling into filmed, her wanting
to do want dating, Diane all these things, which by
(31:37):
the way, Tamrell was right there being like, yeah, you
should go after her. Why don't you go doctor her
like at the very beginning, So it was really odd
that she flipped real quick. Maybe that was the girlfriend's influence,
because the girlfriend was the one that really had the
big problem with her and then kind of built up.
But it seemed like there was including the fact that
June when you were when you see Cheryl talking to
June on the phone and she was like it almost
(31:58):
is questioning how black are you? What type of black
person are you? Can you prove? How do you make
your colors? You know, asking that as well as like
that conversation in which not only are they saying maybe
Diana just has a fetish with trying to be white.
You're trying to do these things. That is too much,
You're too overachieving. Like the friend was not nice. I
(32:19):
will say Camra was not nice. She was not very
supportive in a lot of that. Of course, both of
them had a back and forth, but like it felt
kind of like maybe that was a part of the
journey as well. Again that she came out with like
I am black and I am a black queer filmmaker.
I'm a lesbian filmmaker, so there doesn't need to be
this question. I don't understand why I feel like I
(32:39):
have to be questioned. But again, the back and forth
of being like, yeah, but Diana did turn out to
be exactly what they thought she was in one essence,
especially when you see the interaction between the sister of
Martha and the three of them, because at the end
you have, oh, a black woman who obviously is a
housekeeper there. But the way that set up came in,
(33:01):
I was like, oh, that was very purposeful in that
because part of the question was with Martha. Not only
was she offended by the idea that she was queer
in any way, that she was a lesbian, but she
was really offended at the idea that she would be
with a black woman. You know it kind of that's
kind of the implication in that conversation, and so like
(33:25):
there's a whole level of questioning her search in this
as well, which I'm sure again as you were saying,
is that question that they had in trying to appease
white people to make it to finally being herself from
the film world. So there's there's that whole back and
forth in that as well a lot of thoughts. It's
(33:45):
definitely a coming of age or coming into your own.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yes, yes it is. And I love that it's still
being screened at colleges. I love that Ryl Dunie is
still doing these interviews. But yeah, I mean, I would
love listeners from who've never seen it, who were younger.
Let us know, the nineties, the nineties, the nineties, it
(34:17):
was pretty great. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yeah. It took me a good twenty minute to
get comfortable and then I was like, oh my god,
this is all awkward.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Oh and the technology, I didn't even talk about that,
but hmm, it's good. It's all there for you if
you would like it.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
If you need a time machine to know what historically,
and he says happened in the nineties, go check it out.
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
That is a good one thing I did want to
bring up that kind of annoyed me. It is historic
because this was the first time an out black lesbian
woman and the US directed a movie. But I did
get kind of annoyed about how many reviews I found
of it were like, it's a niche within a niche
(35:05):
within a niche, and I'm like, it really shouldn't be.
I feel like there's one niche maybe, but the rest
of it should be.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
It's an independent film, right, and it's a niche for
the times, but it shouldn't be today.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
No, Like I because I get I think what they
meant was, you know, we don't get a lot of
movies like this, That is true. I don't think that
means it's a niche, right, I think that's a different problem.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
But uh.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad we finally watched. It's been
on our list for years.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
It has it has. We bought it up and we're like, oh,
well wait, because we couldn't find it it.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I did too, I did too, But I recommend it.
I think uh it obviously has a lot of salient
conversations that are still relevant today. But all right, listeners,
if you have any thoughts about this movie or what
should be our next movie, please let us know. You
(36:10):
can email us at Hello at Steffaniefertoldo dot com. You
can find us on Blue Scott Momster podcast on Instagram
and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You for us
on YouTube, and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our
super Duce Christina, executive Prus Maya, and a contribuer Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening Steffan Never
Told You's Booktion of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts
on my Heart Radio, you can check out the art
(36:31):
Radio app Apple Podcasts, or we listen to your favorite
shows
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